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Dr Rangan ChatterjeeDr Rangan Chatterjee

Your Body Keeps Score! - Unhealed Trauma Making You Feel Lost, Addicted, Stressed | Dr. Bessel

Today’s returning guest is Dr Bessel van der Kolk. Bessel is a professor of psychiatry at Boston University School of Medicine and President of the Trauma Research Foundation.

Dr. Bessel van der KolkguestDr. Rangan Chatterjeehost
Oct 9, 20241h 43mWatch on YouTube

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Transcript

  1. 0:00 – 5:06

    Defining Trauma and How Common It Is

    1. BK

      It's very hard to define trauma in a way. Is it external? Is it internal? Is it the event? Is it a reaction? But basically, the way I like to say it, it's something that overwhelms your capacity to cope, and nobody else takes over for you at that particular point. So, and then you get stuck. And so your whole central nervous system c- continues to experience the ongoing world through the lens of that particular overwhelming experience. And so you continue to be constantly scared or feel like people are going to attack you or feeling like you're going to be left for dead or... And so, so you continue to react to oftentimes fairly trivial, uh, challenges as if it is a cata- catastrophe. And it's really the ongoing reaction that really defines what trauma is about. It's so... That your mind and your brain gets changed by trauma, and then you from then on, you live in this traumatic wor- internal world.

    2. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    3. BK

      So the trauma lives inside of you basically. Yeah.

    4. RC

      In the country in which you now live-

    5. BK

      Yeah

    6. RC

      ... and practice, the United States-

    7. BK

      Yes

    8. RC

      ... do you know, do we know how prevalent trauma is?

    9. BK

      Yes, we-

    10. RC

      Is it even possible to measure it?

    11. BK

      Well, there's things you can measure. Incidence of domestic violence, huh? In the US, it's about one out of three couples engages in domestic violence.

    12. RC

      One out of three?

    13. BK

      Yeah. And probably in the UK would be similar. And, uh-

    14. RC

      Can we just pause there a minute?

    15. BK

      Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

    16. RC

      That is a staggering amount.

    17. BK

      You know, I think every relationship is a miracle. You know, to put up with each other, we drive each other a little bit crazy all the... For people to actually get along as, and live so close together and having to make adjustment with each other is a very complex thing.

    18. RC

      Mm.

    19. BK

      But it takes a fair amount of maturity actually, and being able to understand other people's point of view. I, I think it is precious for people to be able to get along with each other, and oftentimes they don't.

    20. RC

      Yeah. And let's take it away from domestic violence for a minute.

    21. BK

      Yeah.

    22. RC

      This is an idea I've been really playing around with, Bessel, and it's kind of, is it external? Is it internal?

    23. BK

      Yeah.

    24. RC

      An external event happens. The same external event could happen to 100 people-

    25. BK

      Yeah

    26. RC

      ... and 100 people are not all going to have the same response. Some people will be able to manage that better. Some people, I'm guessing, may not be traumatized from the same incident. So if our responses are individual to external events, is it easy for us to see how prevalent trauma is in society? Because on one level, trauma, whether an event is traumatic or not, actually depends on how we perceive it and our internal response.

    27. BK

      Not only how we perceive it, but how people around us perceive it.

    28. RC

      Mm.

    29. BK

      So you may look like a very well put together person, and people say they clearly didn't get affected by the particular incident. But basically, I like to say you don't know somebody until you marry them for some length of time. [laughs] Like, you know, we all have our personas.

    30. RC

      Yeah.

  2. 5:06 – 10:24

    Healthy Childhoods and Everyday Signs of Unresolved Trauma

    1. RC

      So could you, with all your experience, outline-

    2. BK

      Yeah

    3. RC

      ... some common signs-

    4. BK

      Yeah

    5. RC

      ... of trauma?

    6. BK

      For one thing, the family you come from defines who you are. So if you said, tell people, "My family was really messed up and violent," then you tell people, "I'm a messed up person." [laughs] And so, uh, so you, you own that, and it becomes a source of shame. So you try to gild the lily, and people generally do that. Uh, they try to make things pretty. I don't know how common it is for people to have perfectly happy childhoods. I know a few people, but not in the mental health field.

    7. RC

      So what are the various qualities-

    8. BK

      Yeah

    9. RC

      ... that define a healthy, non-traumatic childhood?

    10. BK

      Warmth. Uh, usually a lot of food, a lot of music, but people being attuned to each other, people spending a lot of time with each other, having, having time for each other, not hiding themselves behind screens or- Workaholism or whatever. Um, it, it does happen. And people who do things together that are pleasurable and interesting, yes-

    11. RC

      Yeah

    12. BK

      ... it happens.

    13. RC

      Okay. So-

    14. BK

      Yeah

    15. RC

      ... for someone who's listening who thinks, "I don't think I had a traumatic childhood," or, "I don't think I'm suffering from any trauma"-

    16. BK

      Yeah

    17. RC

      ... what are common signs that might indicate-

    18. BK

      Yeah

    19. RC

      ... trauma?

    20. BK

      Yeah. Well, people rarely start off with the trauma. They go into, "I get so angry with my partner," or, "When my kids make noise I cannot control myself and, and, uh, I start screaming at them," or, "I need to hide myself in my room when stuff is happening, uh, because I get easily overwhelmed." Or, um, uh, you, you are in a job and you start hating your, your boss, and you leave your job. And the next one you hate your boss again, and you hate your boss again, and then at some point you may start thinking, "Is it my boss or is it me that is really so bad?" Uh, and usually I think people usually get in touch with these things not by their own observations, but the people around them.

    21. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    22. BK

      People who say, "Honey, I love you, but if you continue to do this, I just cannot be with you any longer." Huh? Uh, friends who no longer talk to you, uh, coworkers who avoid you. Uh, so usually it is your irritability or your being out of tune, or you, uh, blowing up all the time or no- making no space for other people that creates interpersonal conflicts and misery, and you start off usually saying, "It's all your fault."

    23. RC

      [laughs]

    24. BK

      And then at some point you realize, "Uh, maybe it's not all my fault." [laughs] It's, it's interesting, in, in my work I'm into psychedelic, uh, treatments these days, that people deal with stuff from their past and suddenly they say, "I thought my sister was the most terrible person around. We always fight, and now I spend time with my sister and we enjoy each other."

    25. RC

      Yeah.

    26. BK

      And so nothing has happened between the two of them, but their own energy has changed, so they don't irritate other people anymore-

    27. RC

      Yeah

    28. BK

      ... or you don't scare other people anymore. Uh-

    29. RC

      Yeah. That, that's a-

    30. BK

      Yeah

  3. 10:24 – 15:28

    Trauma in the Body, Addiction and the ACE Study

    1. RC

      What does trauma actually do to us physiologically? What does it do to our brain? What does it do to our body?

    2. BK

      Well, it, it, it really changes, uh, what Antonio Damasio calls the housekeeping of the body. And, uh, uh, trauma is really about an overwhelming experience of, uh, of terror. Terror is already too high. Uh, it is your whole organism, uh, freezes or gets disorganized, and then that continues, and it affects many, many different parts of the brain. Uh, mainly deep down, uh, having to do with appetite, having to do with motivation, having to do with arousal, having to do with sleep. Uh, very elementary bodily functions get affected by trauma, and it's really about a, a body that no longer knows how to take care of itself in some ways.

    3. RC

      Mm.

    4. BK

      And that's something people rarely mention. But most trauma symptoms are symptoms of a, a body that cannot take care of itself. Uh, uh, we talked before about, uh, the enormous amount of drug addiction and alcoholism, uh, uh, according to trauma. People take these drugs in order to calm their bodies down-

    5. RC

      Yeah

    6. BK

      ... or in order not to get out of control.

    7. RC

      Mm.

    8. BK

      People d- don't take heroin, uh, in order to make you feel bad about somebody taking heroin. You take the stuff because you cannot stand the way you feel. And so traumatized people are enormously vulnerable to indulge in substances and behaviors to just desperately try-

    9. RC

      Yeah

    10. BK

      ... to not lose control over themselves. Yeah, yeah.

    11. RC

      As a medical doctor myself-

    12. BK

      Yeah

    13. RC

      ... I probably thought many years ago that if you can educate patients and, and help them understand what they need to do- Let's say food, you, you know, nutrition-

    14. BK

      Yeah, yeah

    15. RC

      ... you know, adequate sleep, moving your body regularly-

    16. BK

      Yeah

    17. RC

      ... you know, managing stress. I used to think that would be enough.

    18. BK

      Yeah.

    19. RC

      But I've realized time and time again that knowledge in and of itself is not enough. And I think one of the things we get wrong in medicine, or I won't say wrong, maybe I say is, is incomplete, is let's take alcohol as that example.

    20. BK

      Yeah. Yeah.

    21. RC

      We might say with public health guidelines how many units of alcohol you can drink a week-

    22. BK

      Right

    23. RC

      ... without it impacting your liver-

    24. BK

      Right. Right

    25. RC

      ... and your cancer risk.

    26. BK

      Yeah.

    27. RC

      It's very dry.

    28. BK

      Yeah.

    29. RC

      It's, it's... I don't think it connects with people. And what it fails to do is help that individual understand what role does alcohol play in my life, what role does-

    30. BK

      Yeah. Yeah

  4. 15:28 – 26:43

    The Body Keeps the Score: Message, Hope and Victimhood

    1. RC

      Your book, your seminal book-

    2. BK

      Yeah. Yeah

    3. RC

      ... um, is called The Body Keeps the Score.

    4. BK

      Yeah.

    5. RC

      A few things to sort of comment on it.

    6. BK

      Yeah.

    7. RC

      It's over 10 years since that first came out.

    8. BK

      Yeah.

    9. RC

      It's still selling by the bucket loads today.

    10. BK

      Yeah. [laughs] It is.

    11. RC

      Right?

    12. BK

      Yeah.

    13. RC

      Uh, it's, it's one of those once in a generation phenomenons.

    14. BK

      Yeah. Yeah.

    15. RC

      Something comes out... I, I imagine you couldn't have predicted this sort of level of- [laughs]

    16. BK

      No way. No way

    17. RC

      ... success and connection with people all over the world.

    18. BK

      Yeah. Yeah.

    19. RC

      I, I... I'm interested in why you think it has resonated so deeply with so many people. And then it also, for people who haven't read the book-

    20. BK

      Yeah

    21. RC

      ... first of all, you really should read it.

    22. BK

      Yeah. Yeah.

    23. RC

      But 10 years on, how would you briefly summarize the key message in that book?

    24. BK

      Well, the key message is that horrendous life events, uh, ch- including disrupted attachment, a very big thing is who do you feel safe with, who cares for you, uh, determine your or shape your biology and then leads a life of its own, and it expresses itself in a variety of different ways, and but you can do something about it. It basically, I try to give a message of hope, of you need to develop language for yourself, you need to understand yourself, and then you may want to start doing yoga and alter the relationship you have to your body. And yoga, our research shows, is very effective. Or you may want to do, uh, neurofeedback to change the, uh, neural underl- uh, the, the neural circuits in your brain so you can be more focused and pay more attention. Or you may, uh, do theater and see what it feels like to play a different role and to embody a different role than the, than the role you ordinarily, uh, inhabit. You and I went through that. We went to medical school. [laughs] And the first day of medical school, people call you doc, and you go, "Who are you talking to?" [laughs]

    25. RC

      [laughs]

    26. BK

      And you feel like this inadequate, stupid little kid who's trying to learn something.

    27. RC

      Yeah.

    28. BK

      And then slowly over time, you become a doctor.

    29. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    30. BK

      And it changes your identity, and it changes your relationship to yourself, and then it gives you a certain sense of I'm a very competent person who can sometimes do... make an enormous difference. So your identity changes by the roles you play. Huh? And if you're an unemployed person in a poverty-stricken area, your role is to be an unemployed. How can you feel proud, how can you feel competent if you cannot bring home the bacon for your family?

  5. 26:43 – 33:14

    Being Seen: The Doctor Relationship and Prozac's Legacy

    1. BK

      But, but walking out of, out of an office, as I do with my primary care, this guy knows me.

    2. RC

      Yeah.

    3. BK

      This guy sees me. In Boston, there's the big hospitals. I never have the feeling anybody sees me. They just give me a pill to fix my problem. I had a great example this past week. I was visiting my, uh, my brothers in the Netherlands, and we talked about different parts of our youth. And my brother suddenly says to me, "Oh, you know, I think what made a big difference for you growing up was your fourth grade teacher," and he mentioned the name. And I said, "You're my brother. 70 years later, you know the name of my fourth grade teacher-

    4. RC

      Wow

    5. BK

      ... and of what effect he had on me." Like [laughs] it was just stunning for me to feel my brother knows me, and he remembers details of my, my life that nobody else knows. And that was... Somebody should measure my cytokines and stress hormones at that moment because I bet something changed in my body-

    6. RC

      Yeah

    7. BK

      ... feeling seen and known by s- by somebody.

    8. RC

      Yeah.

    9. BK

      That's-

    10. RC

      Super powerful.

    11. BK

      Yeah. And I think that's, that's very... If, you know, John Bowlby, the great attachment researcher, huh, from here, he said, uh, "If you're not known to other people, you're not known to yourself." Huh? And I think that's a huge dimension in medicine and education-

    12. RC

      Mm

    13. BK

      ... that oftentimes people are not known by the people. But the moment you feel like this person knows me-

    14. RC

      Yeah

    15. BK

      ... the shame goes down, and you become accepting of yourself, and you start making changes. Yeah.

    16. RC

      For someone to know you, you have to be vulnerable with them. You have to open up with them, um, and let them see you-

    17. BK

      Yeah

    18. RC

      ... which of course some people find very hard.

    19. BK

      Yeah.

    20. RC

      Now, people-pleasing is a very common-

    21. BK

      Yeah

    22. RC

      ... trait-

    23. BK

      Yeah

    24. RC

      ... that many people have.

    25. BK

      Yeah.

    26. RC

      I certainly used to have it to a very high degree.

    27. BK

      Yeah.

    28. RC

      I, I hope, I think it's much, much less than it used to be. But people-pleasing is often an attempt to, I guess, manipulate other people's perception of you-

    29. BK

      Yeah

    30. RC

      ... because you're often not truly being yourself-

  6. 33:14 – 43:39

    How the Body Holds Trauma: Rolfing, Touch and Interoception

    1. RC

      It's going that way here in the UK as well. Um, Bessel, in your book, one of my-

    2. BK

      Yeah

    3. RC

      ... favorite phrases, and there are many-

    4. BK

      Yeah

    5. RC

      ... but the one I've written down to talk to you about is this one. "If the body is storing trauma in its musculature, in its hormonal pathways, then it is the body that needs experiences that deeply and viscerally contradict the helplessness, rage, or collapse that result from trauma." I think it's really, really powerful.

    6. BK

      Yeah. Yeah.

    7. RC

      We in the West at least are a very head-based society. Everything's about-

    8. BK

      Yeah

    9. RC

      ... thought and our rational minds. One of the key things I got from your book many years ago when I first came across it is this idea that the, the body stores trauma, right?

    10. BK

      Yeah.

    11. RC

      But, but come on. How would you explain that? 'Cause that's a controversial idea to some people.

    12. BK

      Yeah, but although it's become a meme, huh? It, it's stunning that The New York Times crossword puzzle had, "The body keeps the score." [laughs] It's like, uh, rock songs are being written about The Body Keeps the Score. [laughs] Like it's-

    13. RC

      Oh, you can retire now. You've made it

    14. BK

      ... it's, it, it... That's crazy, right? [laughs]

    15. RC

      Yeah.

    16. BK

      But... And, and it's not quite true, true that the body remembers, but you live out a trauma through your, through the periphery of your, of your body, how your muscles tense up, huh? As somebody said way, way before me, uh, "An angry p- person lives in an angry body. A depressed person lives in a depressed body," uh, huh, that you, you carry these things inside of you.

    17. RC

      Yeah.

    18. BK

      Very meaningful to me because I had asthma as a kid, and that's had a huge influence on my interpretation of the world because I could, oftentimes couldn't breathe. And I think part of my interest in trauma comes from my own experience of being a sickly child. Um, and, uh, so... And then I had somebody who Rolfed me. Rolf is a very-

    19. RC

      Yeah

    20. BK

      ... intensive form of, of, um, opening up muscles and fascia.

    21. RC

      Rolf as in R-O-L-F.

    22. BK

      R- Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

    23. RC

      Yeah, yeah. I know about it.

    24. BK

      And that may have been the most powerful therapeutic experience I've had because my body was sort of locked in the body of that asthmatic scared kid, and after getting Rolfed, my body, I lived in a different body.

    25. RC

      Yeah. Th- Th- Th-

    26. BK

      And no amount of psychotherapy would've been able to do that.

    27. RC

      Th- Th- This is such an important point.

    28. BK

      Yeah.

    29. RC

      I feel I've really-

    30. BK

      Yeah.

  7. 43:39 – 57:21

    Can Thought Alone Heal? Movement, Theater and the Edith Eger Conversation

    1. RC

      You said you're not much of a cognitive therapist.

    2. BK

      Yeah.

    3. RC

      Okay. And the thing I've been really sort of playing with in my mind, particularly 'cause I knew I was gonna meet you and, and again and talk to you, is there- there's multiple ways to heal. I think for most things there's multiple ways to heal-

    4. BK

      Yeah, yeah

    5. RC

      ... and people all have their own biases-

    6. BK

      Yeah, yeah

    7. RC

      ... over the therapies that they've seen-

    8. BK

      Yeah

    9. RC

      ... that work for them, and then-

    10. BK

      Right, right

    11. RC

      ... think that the same therapy's gonna work for everyone. It's kind of like that's certainly not how I see the world.

    12. BK

      Yeah.

    13. RC

      But, um, if the body keeps the score-

    14. BK

      Yeah

    15. RC

      ... and many of us live in a very head-based society where we try and think our way through-

    16. BK

      Yeah

    17. RC

      ... issues, can you heal trauma with thought alone, or do you have to deal with the body as well?

    18. BK

      I don't have the answer for that. You know, uh, because I only see people who I see.

    19. RC

      Yeah. [laughs]

    20. BK

      Yeah. And so there may be all sorts of people out there. But one thing that I know is that doctors and therapists think that they're the answer, but there's multiple ways of getting better.

    21. RC

      Yeah.

    22. BK

      Maybe it's your tennis coach, maybe it's your yoga teacher, maybe it's your theater teacher. Now, we're very much into trauma. We have learned so much from theater experiences, uh, in order to help people to get better.

    23. RC

      Mm.

    24. BK

      And so there's other ways besides ... So this legacy of Freud, you sit down and you talk about your internal world and you get better. And in factually, I researched that and actually researched if people really get better from, uh, from knowing and remembering everything. And what we found out, no, even if you know everything and can talk about it, the symptoms oftentimes still don't go away.

    25. RC

      Yeah.

    26. BK

      Huh? And so for example, what you brought up earlier, uh, experiences, uh, for ex- I think doing martial arts is a spectacularly powerful way for people who have been molested as kids to g- get a sense of agency in their body. And like, "I am a powerful person inside." Not cognitively, but you feel like a powerful person after you do your karate-

    27. RC

      Yeah

    28. BK

      ... chops.

    29. RC

      Yeah.

    30. BK

      Or if you become a tango dancer, you know, my, my body can really do all kind of complicated stuff.

  8. 57:21 – 1:07:10

    Psychedelics and MDMA-Assisted Therapy

    1. RC

      So for someone who has come across this conversation-

    2. BK

      Yeah

    3. RC

      ... and has grown up with the view that, uh, in inverted commas, "drugs" are illegal, they're toxic, and they're things to be avoided-

    4. BK

      Yeah

    5. RC

      ... I want you from your perspective to outline please what is the big deal about psychedelics? Why are you so passionate about them, and why do you think they could be pivotal in the future of mental health?

    6. BK

      Well, I did the research. That's the ultimate thing is you can look up my name and type in MDMA, and you'll see a bunch of papers, uh, that show that MDMA, uh, our treatment method was probably more effective than anything we have studied up to now. So it is data. It's not just feelings, huh? But there's also an attitudinal difference, and that is that, um, you know, I'm 81 years old, so I grew up in the '60s. We took acid. That's part of my culture that I grew up in. And I didn't drop acid a lot, but several times. And, uh, I have a bunch of very prominent scientific friends, and I say to my friends, "Did you also drop acid?" And they all say, say, "Yeah, I did too." And I say, "What did it do for you? How did it affect you?" And they say, "Bec- I think it's because of acid I bec- became a great scientist because in acid I got to understand that the reality that I live in in my own head is such a small segment of an overall reality." And so that was also my experience. I had not taken drugs since, uh, 50 years or something, uh, until this opportunity came along. Uh, but I knew that psychedelic agents open up your mind to new possibilities.

    7. RC

      Can we just pause there a minute?

    8. BK

      Yeah.

    9. RC

      So there's a couple of terms you've used-

    10. BK

      Yeah, yeah

    11. RC

      ... which I think people may just need a bit of guidance through that. So you mentioned MDMA-

    12. BK

      Right

    13. RC

      ... and you mentioned acid.

    14. BK

      Right.

    15. RC

      Can you just, can you just quickly walk people through-

    16. BK

      Yeah

    17. RC

      ... you know, when we say psychedelics-

    18. BK

      Right

    19. RC

      ... what are we talking about?

    20. BK

      Right.

    21. RC

      What do these different terms mean?

    22. BK

      Yeah. It's interesting. So MDMA is a party drug supposedly. Uh-

    23. RC

      What does it stand for?

    24. BK

      Uh, ecstasy-

    25. RC

      Okay

    26. BK

      ... or Molly it's known on the street. That's the drug that we did this very serious research about. Uh, acid is LSD.

    27. RC

      Okay.

    28. BK

      P- not so many people use it these days, um, uh, but still has potential. Uh, psilocybin of course, um, is very popular, and there's good research on it also. Uh, ketamine is an anesthetic that I, I use a fair amount in my practice. Uh, a completely different, uh, organ. And you have ibogaine, a chemical from Africa that seems to have- has been studied for treatment of addictions. Um, as I said, there's a whole range of, of drugs that what's fascinating to me, they all are very different chemical substances, and they all give you a somewhat different experience. But the end result seems to be similar across these drugs. We haven't done the-

    29. RC

      They, they, they all, even though they work in different pathways-

    30. BK

      Yeah

  9. 1:07:10 – 1:13:20

    Neuroplasticity, Other Uses and the FDA Rejection

    1. RC

      from what you've seen with patients-

    2. BK

      Yeah, yeah

    3. RC

      ... and from your research-

    4. BK

      Yeah, yeah

    5. RC

      ... what are the various, um, situations where you feel it can be helpful? You m- you've mentioned addiction. You've mentioned PTSD.

    6. BK

      Yeah, yeah.

    7. RC

      What, what other kind of collection of symptoms might you think this would be useful?

    8. BK

      Chronic depression.

    9. RC

      Depression.

    10. BK

      Uh, oftentimes. Uh, uh, I'm very curious about OCD, obsessive compulsive disorder, which is so treatment resistant. Um-

    11. RC

      Uh, let's be clear what we mean by that.

    12. BK

      Yeah.

    13. RC

      Treatment resistant-

    14. BK

      Like, people don't get better

    15. RC

      ... they don't get better.

    16. BK

      Whatever we do.

    17. RC

      Yeah.

    18. BK

      OCD is a very ingrained disease. Uh, and-

    19. RC

      Um, but it hasn't been studied yet through the lens of psychedelics.

    20. BK

      Uh, some people are beginning to do it, and I'm somewhat hopeful because, again, OCD is a pattern. You always react a certain way, and, uh, the psychedelics may open up your pattern network. Uh, so psychedelics have been shown to change your neuroplasticity in your brain. It's actually a huge issue.

    21. RC

      And, and for someone who's never heard that term-

    22. BK

      Yeah, yeah. Right, right

    23. RC

      ... what does neuroplasticity mean?

    24. BK

      So, so there's such a thing as ... So your brain gets organized over time, and as everybody who listens to this knows, at some point, it becomes pretty stable. You're pretty s- much the same person tomorrow, tomorrow as you are today. And if today you're basically shy and, uh, there's a lot of shame inside of you, you can pretty much guarantee tomorrow you'll f- feel the same way because these patterns get locked in.

    25. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    26. BK

      And in therapy, you try to change these patterns, but they're very ingrained neuronal patterns in your brain of what gets connected to connected what. And on, for a certain window of time, and it's different for different one of these drugs, your brain becomes wide open for a new re-patterning so that the things... And for example, you were neglected and abused as a kid. That sort of becomes part of who you are and how you continue to live your life. And after MDMA, and we've showed it actually scientifically, uh, you may feel like, "Now I know what it feels like to be a loved child."

    27. RC

      I- is it-

    28. BK

      Uh, uh, uh-

    29. RC

      Is it, is it a bit like [laughs] ... This is, this is probably not a great analogy, but, um, I don't know. Let's say you've got an iPhone, [laughs] and you reset it to factory settings-

    30. BK

      Right

  10. 1:13:20 – 1:22:02

    Culture, Trauma and Community Movement

    1. RC

      Earlier on in the conversation-

    2. BK

      Yeah

    3. RC

      ... uh, we, we touched on different cultures and their-

    4. BK

      Yeah, yeah

    5. RC

      ... relationship with trauma.

    6. BK

      Yeah.

    7. RC

      And of course there's certain cultures that don't like to talk about stuff.

    8. BK

      Mm.

    9. RC

      You know? It's, you don't talk about stuff.

    10. BK

      Right.

    11. RC

      I think you mentioned, uh, German upbringings before. Like, what did you say about them?

    12. BK

      Uh, so Ger-

    13. RC

      Or, or certainly German families are-

    14. BK

      The Germans never talked about what the war did to them.

    15. RC

      Right.

    16. BK

      The Japanese never talk about what the war did to them. Huh? Uh, in China, you cannot talk about the Cultural Revolution or Tiananmen Square. It didn't happen. But boy, the Chinese are very good in body work. [laughs] So they are very good in dealing with the body, but they're terrible about talking.

    17. RC

      Hold on.

    18. BK

      Yeah.

    19. RC

      But that's really interesting, isn't it?

    20. BK

      Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

    21. RC

      So if, if one of the things you're saying is that the body, uh, I was gonna say stores trauma, but perhaps not the, the correct word.

    22. BK

      It contains it. It's expressed-

    23. RC

      Contains it. Okay

    24. BK

      ... it's expressed through the body. Yeah, yeah.

    25. RC

      Okay. So expressed through your body.

    26. BK

      Yeah, yeah.

    27. RC

      Yet you live in a culture where it's not acceptable-

    28. BK

      Right

    29. RC

      ... or at least the done thing that you talk about it.

    30. BK

      Right, right.

  11. 1:22:02 – 1:29:12

    Grassroots Legalization, Academia and Generational Motivation

    1. RC

      But this, um-

    2. BK

      Yeah, yeah

    3. RC

      ... FDA ruling-

    4. BK

      Yeah

    5. RC

      ... has, has really frustrated you, hasn't it?

    6. BK

      It is devastating. You know, our study cost $163 million to do it just right. It has the most potential of anything I've studied. I've studied more different methods for dealing with trauma than anybody else alive, from yoga to neurofeedback to theater to Prozac, uh, and here we see something where you go like, "Wow, there really is hope." And now it will go on the ground. And-

    7. RC

      Well, that's what already is happening-

    8. BK

      It is happening

    9. RC

      ... as you said, because these-

    10. BK

      But here you get to the great racial and economic disparities. If you're a Black man and you start using illegal drugs, you go to jail. If you're a person of color who's poor, you go like, "I'm not going to touch illegal substances because, look, I have this fentanyl epidemic going on in my community."

    11. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    12. BK

      "I'm not going to take these illegal drugs." So you get into very educated people will know the research and will know how to treat somebody for themselves on the ground and not af- not being afraid of going to jail. Well, if you're poor and a person of color, uh, you're crazy to do it.

    13. RC

      Yeah.

    14. BK

      But, uh, all these things have these huge, uh, social implications, huh?

    15. RC

      Yeah.

    16. BK

      Uh.

    17. RC

      Have you got a plan as to what to do next around that?

    18. BK

      Yes. Doing podcasts [laughs] .

    19. RC

      [laughs]

    20. BK

      To, so that the general public can get to know what it's like. And so in America, actually, every state can make things legal, and so becau- uh, we are actually going to not argue with the FDA. Talking to the FDA is like talking to Trump, you know, like won't make any difference. But, uh, we're going to put it on, on the ballot and get it legalized state by state, which is-

    21. RC

      Wow

    22. BK

      ... what we're planning to work on actually, yeah.

    23. RC

      It's kind of interesting.

    24. BK

      Yeah, yeah.

    25. RC

      Many things throughout the course of human history-

    26. BK

      Yeah

    27. RC

      ... many, many significant changes haven't actually come from the top down. They've come from the bottom up, these big grassroots-

    28. BK

      Absolutely

    29. RC

      ... movements.

    30. BK

      Absolutely. You know, uh, like, you know, my passion in life has to be, has been to see what can help people, and I was a sort of a very promising junior professor at Harvard studying Prozac and stuff like that, very respectable. Then I start studying yoga, and people go like, "Oh my God, he's gone off the deep end."

  12. 1:29:12 – 1:37:23

    Optimism, Contradiction and Raising Secure Children

    1. RC

      We, we, we, we started off this conversation-

    2. BK

      Yeah

    3. RC

      ... and you were very optimistic about humanity and the world.

    4. BK

      Well, no, no, that's not true either.

    5. RC

      Okay. [laughs]

    6. BK

      No, no. I think... No, we, we are a self-destructive, uh, species. We won't stop cl- climate change, you know? Uh, for example, you're in Oxford. I live in Boston, Massachusetts. Uh, I spewed a lot of carbon dioxide in the air f- flying over here.

    7. RC

      Mm.

    8. BK

      My brothers no longer fly because they take climate change seriously. How many people do you know who have stopped flying because they don't want to spew CO2 into the air? No, we are d- going to destroy ourselves, and we are not capable of stopping that.

    9. RC

      Hold on, hold on. So this is interesting.

    10. BK

      Yeah. Yeah.

    11. RC

      I think you did strike a very optimistic tone-

    12. BK

      Yes. Yeah, true

    13. RC

      ... at the start-

    14. BK

      Yeah, true

    15. RC

      ... which [laughs] w- which again, you're talking to this-

    16. BK

      Yeah

    17. RC

      ... kind of-

    18. BK

      Yeah

    19. RC

      ... these, um-

    20. BK

      Yeah

    21. RC

      ... I think these contradictions that we all have within us-

    22. BK

      That's right. That's right

    23. RC

      ... and we try and make everything black and white.

    24. BK

      Right. Right. Right.

    25. RC

      And I feel all of us have an element of personal hypocrisy.

    26. BK

      Right. Right.

    27. RC

      I really do.

    28. BK

      Right. And we are kind and we are awful, both at the same time, you know? [laughs]

    29. RC

      Yeah.

    30. BK

      Yeah. Yeah.

  13. 1:37:23 – 1:43:46

    Where to Start Healing and Closing Reflections

    1. RC

      And to finish off If there's someone who stumbled across this podcast or they've been on YouTube and they've just come across this, and they heard those signs that you mentioned earlier on about the things-

    2. BK

      Yeah

    3. RC

      ... that may indicate that they-

    4. BK

      Yeah, yeah

    5. RC

      ... have some unresolved trauma-

    6. BK

      Yeah, yeah

    7. RC

      ... and they're like, "Okay," like, "I, I reckon that's me."

    8. BK

      Yeah.

    9. RC

      "I wanna start somewhere-

    10. BK

      Yeah, yeah

    11. RC

      ... but I don't know where to start."

    12. BK

      Yeah.

    13. RC

      What would your words to them be?

    14. BK

      You know, choosing, finding a good therapist is very difficult. Uh, I know this from own experience also. I've also gone to therapists that were no good. Uh, but so word of mouth is the best.

    15. RC

      Mm.

    16. BK

      Having ... If you tell me, "I went to this trainer and it just made a big difference," I trust your judgment-

    17. RC

      Mm

    18. BK

      ... more than the credentials that people have, number one. Uh, so really good personal recommendation of people say, "Yeah, it really helped me," is the best thing. Um, in the US, people call me from all over the US. I say, "Go on the website of American Psychologist," which is a website, "and find people who are well-trained in at least three different methods."

    19. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    20. BK

      'Cause anybody who says, "I'm a Freudian," is a cult person. They-

    21. RC

      Mm

    22. BK

      ... they ... Freud is more important to you than the welfare of your patients. I'm offending a lot of people by what I just said. Uh, and a lot of ... There's ... Therapists tend to become religious people. They know one methods, and they start saying, "This method is the best method."

    23. RC

      Yeah.

    24. BK

      And you have to go to somebody who is very good in a, a variety of methods, hopefully one having to do with the body.

    25. RC

      Yeah.

    26. BK

      Uh, I think EMDR is very helpful for many people and very easy to do.

    27. RC

      Can you just briefly explain what it is for somebody-

    28. BK

      EMDR is-

    29. RC

      ... who's never heard that?

    30. BK

      ... this eye movement desensitization. It's a very strange method that I've very, studied very thoroughly, that helps you to sort of dampen the memory somewhat.

Episode duration: 1:43:46

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