Dr Rangan ChatterjeeYour Childhood Is Still Controlling Your Life (And You Don't Realize It) | Dr Nicole LePera
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
110 min read · 21,589 words- 0:00 – 1:08
Signs your nervous system is out of balance: stuckness, agitation, numbness
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
It's really clear to me, Nicole, that we see the world through the state of our nervous systems. What would you say the common signs are that might indicate someone has a nervous system that is perhaps a little bit out of balance?
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
I think the first sign that really inspired this whole journey into holistic focus, obviously grounded in the nervous system, is a kind of feeling of stuckness. No matter kind of how I'm thinking differently, I can't seem to change those reactions in real time. And I think beneath the surface when we begin to drop into our bodies, it's a sense of restlessness and agitation, I think, for a lot of us, where we feel on edge, we feel uncomfortable in our own skin. I think many others kind of don't even feel connected to their bodies at all. They have a sense of numbness or a lack of awareness that they're even living in a body on the day-to-day. But I think those are the kind of the major signs, because our nervous system is determining how grounded we feel, how aware we are of our surroundings, our ability to think clearly and logically and responsibly about life. And again, when we're kind of driven by dysregulation, we lose access to all of that.
- 1:08 – 2:29
How dysregulation plays out in relationships: overreactions and role-based identities
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah. I think a lot of the time it also shows up in our relationships-
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Oh
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... doesn't it? Often with those really personal and intimate relationships where we might blow up, you know, get angry-
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
[laughs]
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... get annoyed, become overly sensitive to criticism. All these things also indicate a dysregulated nervous system, don't they?
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Yeah, I think the more that we are kind of in relationship with others, but the relationship with ourself included, those are, I think, the moments where we kind of notice not only the dysregulation, what I speak of as the inner child, those moments of the disproportionate reactions where we're saying and doing things that we don't mean. Again, our intention is to show up as a, a caring, connected individual, yet we're blowing up or shutting down. And again, I even think it's beyond those moments of reactivity. I think a lot of us have adapted. We become an identity, we play a role. We kind of function in a certain way within our relationships, whether we become the caregiver to others, the appeaser, and I believe all of that is kind of grounded in these dysregulated moments beginning in childhood, where those were the only way that we have learned to adapt because that was all that the circumstances allowed at one time. Yet our body hasn't updated. We're in a different context. We're perhaps in different relationships, yet we're still driven to see, believe, and repeat the same patterns.
- 2:29 – 3:58
What the “inner child” is—and why childhood still drives adult reactions
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
For someone who's never come across the term inner child before, or perhaps someone has no awareness that their childhood experiences might be impacting their adult behaviors and their adult reactions, how do you get this message across to them if they need convincing?
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Yeah, so our, our inner child is a, a part of us that was formed in childhood that we retain, right? It's what learned safety, it's what learned connection, it's what learned how to deal with unpredictability, conflict, disconnection, unmet needs, and I think there's a lot of us-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
... especially well into adulthood, where we either don't want to look back, it feels like it was so far ago, we don't imagine it's still creating any impact in our daily life, or if you're like me, I have very little ability to recall-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm-hmm
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
... what happened. I can't tell the story necessarily of what was happening or not happening in my home, yet I'm living those reactions. And those are the moments that we were both kind of just talking about, the kind of disproportionate reactions-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
... the identities that just don't feel like us, our inability to change even if we set the intention to do so. All of that is kind of indicative of this inner child that's living in our body. The sense of urgency, the overwhelming emotions that quite literally seem to take over no matter what we want to do differently, and I think many of us, again, we meet those moments-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm-hmm
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
... in our daily life or in just our daily patterns in general.
- 3:58 – 12:00
Attachment vs authenticity: why kids abandon the self to stay connected
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah. Okay, so the central idea I feel i- in much of your work, including your brand-new book, Reparenting the Inner Child: The New Science of Our Oldest Wounds and How to Heal Them, is that in childhood we undergo certain experiences. Some of those are positive. Some of those perhaps are not as positive as they could've been. And we adapt to those situations, and those adaptations can become problematic. So I wanna go back to a passage in the introduction of your new book that I really enjoyed reading. "Before the external world begins to shape our instincts, we exist in a state where we feel spontaneous and free, filled with wonder and awe, connected to our natural inclinations, creativity, and imagination. But as soon as we begin to explore our environment, we start picking up cues about how to belong, and with that awareness comes a slow disconnection from our natural wholeness." That's the book in a nutshell.
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Mm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
That's such a powerful message, isn't it?
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Yeah. That's, I think, our human experience, and these adaptations are beautifully evolutionarily driven. They are, they're wiring us to survive those early environments because we need connection to physiologically sustain life, right? We're one of the few, if not the only mammal that is born so underdeveloped, and this is a newer-Finding in our field where, I mean, there was a time where parenting experts, even just a couple decades ago, weren't talking about the immaturity of the human nervous system, right? This idea that children could just soothe or calm themselves on their own. And the reality of it is that we can't. And our nervous system is being shaped even before we're physically born into whatever circumstances we're born into. It's actually being shaped by our ancestors. And again, this is a beautiful adaptation because we live driven by prediction and survival, and we want to, right, more or less learn the environment enough so that we can begin to function in that environment. And in childhood, when relationships are the foundation in which we find safety and security, though of course not all of us-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm-hmm
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
... do have those relationships, those are where those earliest adaptations begin. And so ideally, right, we not only have present caregivers, we have caregivers that are grounded and safe in their own bodies. And I think this explains why the large majority of us are not, um, living or do carry dysfunctional habits from our childhood because even if, as was the case for me, I had two very present caregivers who were very well intentionally doing the best they can, even seemingly committed to breaking some of the habits of their own childhood. Yet, without the information, without the capacity in their own nervous system to be calm, grounded, attuned to a different developing individual, a child that is not them, many of us are left more so with unmet emotional needs, where the person around us is dysregulated themselves. So no matter how much they very much want to support us in exploring our environment and venturing out and developing our own unique self, they're unable to, again, because they're carrying the adaptations that served them in their earliest environments.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
It's basically, I guess the question for us as children, are we going to be authentic or are we going to attach?
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Mm-hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
You know, attachment versus authenticity. And you know, as Gabor Mate will say, "Whenever a child is faced with that choice, they will choose attachment-
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Right
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... over authenticity."
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Right. Because attachment get, is the only way. As a child, they can't step away from the relationship. They can't zoom out and understand all of the different reasons and factors which are contributing to their parents' inability to allow them to be authentic. All they know, and again this is very survival driven, is they need their parent. So they will contort themselves and, you know, in all of these dysfunctional ways. Oftentimes they will idealize the parent because it's safer to imagine, right, that they, the parent is good, and this is, I think, where shame begins to develop. In addition-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm-hmm
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
... to all of these dysfunctional coping habits. In childhood, if we didn't have that present and attuned caregiver, the, the belief that many of us land on is it's not something that's lacking in my parent, which is always the case. The child will take full ownership of what is wrong and take it as a meaning that they are unworthy of being their selves. And so yes, it comes down to attachment will trump everything. And even writing a book, right, seemingly about individual development, I remember-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm-hmm
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
... kind of thinking through, I cannot begin this book without first speaking about the power and importance of attachment, not only hypothetically, but grounded, again, in the nervous system.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah. I think the implications of your work and this book are, you know, quite profound. I think on an individual level, if, if there's an adult who comes across your work, there's the possibility for healing ourselves, right? Understanding what adaptations we've developed, and then going through the steps to change things. I certainly feel on, on my journey, born to Indian immigrant parents in the UK, academic success was very much prioritized.
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Mm-hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
I took on the belief as a young boy, through no fault of my parents, I might add, that I was only worthy of love when I was a straight A student or I got top grades. Once I became aware of that, I was able to see where that came from, go through the process of perhaps being a bit frustrated, but then also understanding your parents are human. It totally makes sense through their lens of coming to a different country, of facing discrimination. But healing is possible because once you understand it, and I know we're gonna get to some of these helpful practices that you fill your book with, but you can go back and make peace with what happened. And there is a new possibility, a new freedom, a new lightness, a new liberation when you exist in the world, when you go in and I guess do the work, right?
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Absolutely, and I think my, all of my messaging is, my intention at least is one of, one of that level of empowerment, where, I mean, the goal and purpose isn't necessarily even to go back to kiss blame, because much like you're describing, I think a lot of us had very well-intentioned parents-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm-hmm
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
... that were seemingly, right, trying to create a situation where we didn't have to suffer in the way that they had. Yet again, because of a lack of own capacity, ability, I think society plays a huge role too, right? We were left with patterns that don't serve us. And I think being able to expand and say, "My parents did the best they can. This was the ways that they were able to show up and meet my needs. And at the same time, right here were the needs that I did not necessarily have met." Because-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm-hmm
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
... a lot of us get stuck on one or y- kind of, we get stuck on one of the sides, where we feel so bad kind of acknowledging our parents' limitations that we're actually doing ourself a disservice because we still have unmet needs that are probably driving a lot of-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm-hmm
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
... our daily habits, and then we are gonna continue to betray ourself, abandon ourself in ways that, again, we learned in childhood because we could not see our parents clearly. And others get stuck on the other side, where they're stuck in such anger-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
... and resentment and blame, and this idea of, "Well, I shouldn't have to do anything differently. My parents should have showed up for me in a different way," that then we do limit ourself in the ability to have grace, compassion, see our parents for who they are, and give ourself the possibility to evolve and change into someone different.
- 12:00 – 15:21
Healing without “forgiving”: acceptance, grief, and moving forward
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah.I have to acknowledge that there will be some people out there who've had really toxic childhoods. There might have been, you know, physical abuse-
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Mm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... emotional abuse, and of course, in those situations, it doesn't change the reality of what you're talking about, but it may be harder, right? Let's put it this way, Nicole. To heal, do you feel that someone has to make peace with what happened in their childhood, or can they heal without doing so?
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
I think it depends on how we're defining make peace. Um, the way I would define make peace, and I think a way that allows us to move forward, is to accept that it happened.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Right.
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Right? Peace doesn't need to be, mean I feel good about it, nor does peace mean I have to be in relationship with perhaps the people that abused me or neglected me. But I think peace, when we look, when we look at it as more of an acceptance that-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Acceptance
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
... that did happen, and it is impacting me now, and here are the ways in which it's impacting me now, I think then we can heal in the sense of giving myself... 'Cause I think what healing then is, in definition, is giving myself the opportunity to have a new experience. I could not change what happened then. Right? I don't have to even feel positive about what happened then, or interact with the people who created the circumstances that caused my abuse, my pain, my suffering. But if I acknowledge that it did happen then, now, or that it's happening now, let me kind of bring it forward in time, then I give myself the opportunity to kind of end the story differently, create a new response, again, where those other reactions or just identities would have colored how I'm moving forward.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah. I really love that distinction, and I think i- it's a really challenging topic to talk about, but I think it comes down to we can't change what has happened. We may wish- [laughs]
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
No
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... we were parented differently. We, we may wish we had not experienced certain things, and for people who've had difficult childhoods, my heart goes out to them.
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Mm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
I, I can't imagine what that must have been like, and at the same time, if someone does want to move forward in their life, and, you know, live these new possibilities and have that sense of freedom and calm and lightness, I think you're right. You have to, at some point, accept that this is what did happen. I don't like it. I wish it hadn't, but now I'm going to make different choices going forward.
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Right, and I think it's important to have that moment, moments, period of time to be with the grief, the pain, the anger. I think that's absolutely part of the journey that is, I think, an uncomfortable piece. Though, then there is the kind of pivot point, right, where I maybe see where the grief, the anger, the dysfunctional habits are still driving my current circumstances, and then I give myself a new opportunity to, to do differently. Um, because without that, that moment, I do think in, as part of the healing journey, it is really sitting in how I feel about what didn't happen-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
... whether it's anger, whether it's resentment, whether it's loss, because all of those emotions are real, and I think a lot of us have gotten very savvy at keeping those so kind of contained beneath the surface that we don't even realize how much emotion is still driving our current actions.
- 15:21 – 19:44
Why insight isn’t enough: building the bridge from awareness to action
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah. When it comes to healing, you have a part in the book which I, I, I completely echo, which is there are two steps to healing. Number one, becoming aware. Step number two, making different choices, and I really do think healing can be looked at that simply-
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Mm-hmm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... if we, if we sort of zoom out. In my experience, many people get stuck at step one. They, you know, take this wealth of information-
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
[laughs]
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... that's out there these days, podcasts like this one, you know, online blogs, um, Instagram pages, like yours, and they get insights.
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Mm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
They go, "Oh my God, that's me." Right? "Oh, I get now why this really bothers me or why when I get criticized I overreact." And often it does come from our childhoods, but I have found people often, they get stuck there. Uh, as we, as we say, they're blaming their parents, they're blaming their childhood, and that can go on for years. And I kind of have real sympathy for that, but I don't think that's helpful. In all your work, either with clients yourself, or I know you have an online community, The Selfheiser Circle, have you found that people get stuck at step one quite a lot, and if so, how do you help them move on to step two, which is making different choices?
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
So this is what inspired me to even evolve into a holistic framework, because I would work with very wise, very committed clients in my private practice when I kind of began this journey working more tradis- traditionally, and it didn't seem that no matter how much insight and awareness clients would gain about their patterns that maybe brought them into the treatment room, they would still come in week after week and report the same behaviors, the same dysfunctional habits in their relationship. And even outside of, right, being stuck in blame, anger, and resentment, I mean, I am a prototypical person who was stuck in analysis.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
[laughs]
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
I wanted to be a clinical psychologist. Why? Because it felt safer to kind of hover above my lived experience-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
[laughs]
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
... and try to seek understanding, because it kept me separate from all of the emotions, all of the overwhelming sensations that had been living in my dysregulated body for quite some time. Because that's what we're talking about we need to do to build the bridge into new actions is, as simple as it sounds, I almost can imagine people getting so frustrated when they're like, "Well, what do I do?" And I'm like, "Well, you become aware of the patterns, and then you show up newly and you make a new choice." And I know it can... imagine it sounds very frustrating as it's that simple, but building that bridge means shifting into action, right? Reconnecting with our body that's driving a lot of our reactions or our behavioral patterns, and for our nervous system, that is challenging. We love the habitual.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah.
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
We love to be able to predict what happens next. It decreases the uncertainty and the fear that's related to the uncertainty. It is energetically conservative, right? To not have to think from our very powerful prefrontal cortex and make new choices, right? We are able to demi- limit the amount of calories our body is using. So for a million different reasons, we don't wanna do the uncomfortable thing, and the uncomfortable, discomfort begins even with a healthy choice. The minute we step out of those patterns to create a new action. So for me, the minute I stop living in my mind and drop down to my body, I'm already immediately now met with all of the discomfort that's been living there for so long. So what we're really talking about is expanding the capacity of our nervous system to tolerate newness, not-... all at once, and I think that's what, where a lot of us do ourselves-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
... a disservice, especially now with a million pieces of information online, and all of these protocols that you can do.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah.
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
And even from the depths of suffering, I can understand, of course, you wanna, right, have this idea that if I just change my lifestyle from top to bottom starting tomorrow, that I will find the quickest route to feeling better. But what we're really doing from a nervous system standpoint is any new choice is gonna expand our capacity for discomfort. The more new choices we tack on, the more uncomfortable we become, and the way our body will work is we'll get to what I call, like, the point of no return. The more stressed we become, the more we fall right back on those old habits, because they're comforting, they're familiar-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
... even if they're dysfunctional.
- 19:44 – 24:22
Protocols, rigidity, and listening to the body (plus childhood roots of structure-resistance)
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah. When I think about these behaviors, or the behaviors that we might introduce into our life to, you know, get healthier and, you know-
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Mm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... work on our longevity, whatever it might be that we're looking for, I always think it's not about the behavior, it's about what's going on behind the behavior. You know, you can do healthy habits from a really dark place-
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Mm-hmm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... from one of guilt and shame, and-
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Mm-hmm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... you don't love yourself. You're punishing yourself through these choices.
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Mm-hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
And I have done that in the past. Or you can make the same choice, but the energy behind it is completely different. There's compassion there, there's grace, there's, "No, I wanna do this behavior because it supports the person I want to be." It's not about disciplining yourself or shaming yourself. There's a, there... It's the same behavior, but there's a different energy behind it.
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
100%. I think what's interesting now is with all of the information out there, all of the health protocols, right, aimed at health and wellness, I do think that a lot of people are, are coming at those behaviors-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
... habits even, from a more shameful place-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
... perhaps even from a distracting place r- from a very rigid place. Um, I will always, when people ask, like, "Do you have a protocol? Is there something you do every day non-negotiable?" And my answer might surprise people, is, "No."
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah.
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Because my body feels different every day, right? The thing that kind of helped me feel supported on one day, where I have high energy, might not be the thing that makes me feel supported the next day. So it's, can I, right, drop in and understand the why, the intention for what's driving the behavior? And in my opinion, at least, can I allow my body's needs, which for a lot of us change over time, over seasons, as we age, and so can I reconnect with that kind of level of flexibility?
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah. I, I can't, I couldn't agree with you more. I personally don't really like the word protocol-
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Mm-hmm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... I've realized over the last few years.
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Right.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
It's, it's a very popular term in online health and wellness.
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Mm-hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
And I get it, some people respond well to it, right? I'm just saying personally, for me, there's a rigidity to a protocol that I don't think is helpful long-term. Now, let me just clarify what I mean by that. Let's say you're stuck, and you're lost, and you have no motivation, and you don't know where to turn. I reckon in the short term, a protocol actually might be helpful, because it gives you some rigidity. It, it takes you out of the stuckness and gives you something to follow. But what I've seen in my clinical practice, Nicole, is that the people who heal in the long term, not just for a few weeks or months, at some point the plan starts becoming my plan for them, and it starts to become their plan.
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Right.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Right? So they take the guidance that I may have given them, but over time they've started to listen to themselves and figure out, "You know what? Actually, yeah, I think 70% of that works well for me, but that 30%, it's not the right approach for me. I feel better when I do it this way." I've always loved that, and I think, as you're saying, I think that's one of the missing pieces when people are trying to make these changes. They're latching on to the latest protocol from the latest influencer online that they follow, and I, as I say, it can be helpful for a short time, but then at some point you gotta start tuning into yourself and asking yourself, "Is this the right approach for me?"
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Yeah, I 100% agree, and I think some of us resist structure and protocols, again, because of-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
... the learning that happened in childhood, where maybe we have, as I call it, an over-permissive parent, where we had no boundaries, no limits. So now even the suggestion, right, that there's a protocol out there that could be helpful, right, feels restrictive, controlling. You're not gonna tell me what to do.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm.
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
So I think in some scenarios, right, that particular person, right, could benefit from some level of structure in their life, kind of a-
- 24:22 – 32:43
Emotionally immature parent archetypes: status-oriented, critical, and mixed patterns
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
You mentioned these overly permissive, I think, was it an overly permissive parent? And I, I, I want to talk to you about this. It's, it's towards the start of the book here when, in the section on emotionally immature parents, and you almost go through different archetypes of certain parents. And I, I never really come across that before. Can you talk to some of the common ones? Like for example, the status-orientated parent.
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
[laughs] Okay.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
If that was our parent, what does that mean for us?
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Right. So much like we've both been, I think, describing in our childhood, a status-oriented parent is a parent who is kind of more driven by performance, right? Presenting ourself in a particular way, sometimes even looking in a particular way.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Can I just pause you then, Nicole-
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Yeah
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... a minute? Because I think it's a key point here, I just wanna make sure we're keeping in mind, which is it could also have been our interpretation. Do you know what I mean?
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Mm-hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
That, it's certainly something I've found in my life, is that, as I said before about my parents, is that-I honestly feel my parents were fantastic, but I took on the belief-
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Mm-hmm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... that I was only loved when I achieved certain things. Do you see what I mean?
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Yeah.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
There's a subtle difference, right?
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Right. And I think some of this is, again, going to the parents' ability, too, and how they, they-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
... communicate, right, this unconditional love. And again, I think this goes back to imagining the circumstances. My parents as well, who came from an immigrant household, right, they did not learn how to, even though inside they felt that unconditional love-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
... driven, again, by societal factors, by the reality that there are certain aspects of achievement that afford most humans around the world some level of security-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
... financial, even kind of emotional security, relational security. That's real. So I think a lot of us are dealing with what you're beautifully describing, which is a mis- mismatch-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm-hmm
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
... between an inner desire and the outward-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
... presentation, which is, again, driven by the environment, by culture, by beliefs, by their own past and ancestors, and ways that they've learned to communicate certain-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
... emotional feelings. But again, if that was the circumstances in childhood-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
... which was very much, I know for a fact, much like you, I was wired both directly and indirectly. I would bring home the 96, I'd get asked why it wasn't 100.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Oh, snap, snap, snap.
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Or, right, when I was not kind of doing well, as I did very clearly at softball, when I was, say, in dance class and I wasn't in the front of the line, right, my mom was a little less interested. She came to still my recitals, but it didn't light her up as much. So it's, sometimes it's, it's direct, and other times it's this indirect messaging. But again, it came from a very well-intentioned place. They thought that academic achievement would result in successful college, successful, right, financials, future.
- 32:43 – 40:20
Criticism, feedback, and social fear: learning to tolerate being misinterpreted
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah. I- it's kind of interesting you mention criticism there, and that's come up a few times in this conversation. I used to be hypersensitive to criticism, not that long ago-
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Mm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... I would say.
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Mm-hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
You know, relatively in the, in the context of my life. It, it doesn't tend to bother me anymore, and my belief is that criticism only really bothers us to the extent that we believe it to be true. And I guess one of the things that I found really helpful was asking myself the question, why does this comment bother you? Why? Oh, you know, oh, this reminds me of what happened when I was at school. Oh, this reminds me of something Mum said to me. Uh, whatever it might be. And again, going to that two-step path to healing, number one, becoming aware, and then moving to the second stage, which is make a different choice. Actually, you know what? I don't need to let that bother me. That's useful feedback for me that I can use to change my behavior going forward. Certainly, that's been my experience with getting better at dealing with criticism. Is this something you've ever struggled with? And if so, Nicole, how did you get through it?
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Oh, I mean, I've had... My fear of criticism and feedback almost would've prevented me from posting online in the very early stages of this. I had a very real concern of what will people think, right? As I'm coming up with this new, not new, but, like, I'm integrating this holistic model and I wanna start to speak of it, right? I was very clear and concerned about being misinterpreted, right? Being told by either colleagues in my field that I very much esteem that I was now talking about the body and nervous system and nutrition, and who am I to talk about that? What role does that play? And so that almost prevented me from, as Lally, my partner, was kind of urging me to go online-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
... from even wanting to. Um, in the beginning stages, there was a lot of fear about what I would post. I would have always kind of a, kind of like a running therapist in my head where I would run something in my head before I said it out loud-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm-hmm
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
... and always worry, how will per- someone, this person, that type of person, take what I'm saying? And I wasn't really able to be in a full flow state when I was speaking or creating or delivering content in any way, because that fear was so real, right?
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm-hmm.
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
And it's the fear of, right, not only being seen as less than perfect, not wording something, not talking to something that I'm allowed to be speaking to, but it's a fear that I think sha- a lot of us humans share-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
... which is being misinterpreted, right? Not being fully seen for my intention or for the desire that I'm creating or sending in the message itself, and that's a very core fear, right? Again, it's very socially driven. We, to some extent, shame and all of that, those restrictive behaviors where we don't wanna speak-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
... or say something that we really mean to be true, is driven by our need to be socially accepted. Again, originating in childhood, very much a social emotion. It keeps us operating within the bounds of society, and when we feel like we're being ostracized or being told that we are not a part of this group, it, it very much is a, not only emotional pain, a physiological pain.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
H- how did you manage that, though, Nicole? Because as I've already mentioned, if you look at your platforms today online, they are huge, okay? You cannot post on Instagram without, I'd say, a minimum of 30,000 people, you know, engaging with your posts, and sometimes hundreds of thousands, okay? It is inconceivable that every comment is going to be positive. You've already shared that you had a fear before you started posting. Now the reality is that you do post-
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Mm-hmm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... and have done for many years. How have you dealt with criticism and pushback?
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
So to get me to a place now where I learn how to navigate feedback, I had to live the experience. I had to go and get all different types of criticism from all different types of people, and again, this is very nervous system, body driven, teach myself and in the embodiment that-I will be okay, right? Teach myself through boundaries, right? Through knowing where I'm at in terms of my capacity. When I'm not eating well, not sleeping well, over-stressed for whatever reason-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
... is not the time to go into the places that I know, right, are gonna have most likely the negative comments. But of course, sometimes I'm always surprised that when a piece of co- content goes up, and sometimes I know when it's gonna be a little bit more, you know, controversial, and I'm, like, prepared for what could come back in feedback. And other times, I'm completely blindsided because even in my community that has very aligned individuals more or less, we are all subjective, right? We're all gonna view and hear and consume a piece of content through everything that we've been talking about.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Exactly.
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Our past experiences, our beliefs. So you can never fully anticipate what's going to get criticism or not, and I am. So while I've learned how to live the experience, create boundaries, right, kind of take my own accountability when I'm putting myself in an environment or, you know, in something stressful when I don't have the limits to do it, th- by no means means to turn off, right, access to feedback because that's how I've been able to learn from my community.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm-hmm.
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Hear what's important, hear ways to word certain topics in a way that to my, you know, best intention will land and not just kind of create resistance in the audience, though I also understand that that's an unrealistic expectation to have the idea that everything or that my work is going to be everything for everyone. So between the practical applications of boundaries, really understanding myself and my limits, but also-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm-hmm
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
... making sure that I'm getting comfortable, right, within trusted communities, my team, my personal life, that I still allow myself to practice hearing the harder versions of feedback and to teach my body that while it might feel, you know, kind of end of life in that moment and my body goes into a nervous system reaction, that I can teach myself that I'm okay. I can get through it. I can regulate my body. These connections we'll still maintain. The community will still be there, and it's just been quite literally living that experience over the past however many years it's been. Um, though again, there are still moments where, you know, I have to hold myself accountable and know when I'm at my limit and, you know, know where to go for feedback that can feel more helpful than just kind of really tearing down.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah. It reminds me of something you say towards the end of the book, that healing is nonlinear. There is no finish line to cross, which I think is absolutely beautiful and a, and a very important message for-
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Mm-hmm
- 40:20 – 44:24
Triggers as teachers: what happens in the body during disproportionate reactions
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
[laughs]
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... criticism of some sort. The question is, how much are you gonna let that criticism bother you and affect you, and can you use that criticism as a teaching moment? You do write in the book a little bit about triggers, and I'd love you to explain, you know, what is a trigger the way you see things.
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
This is beyond just criticism, right?
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah.
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Moments of dysregulation are, I will always... Our triggers can be our teachers, right? Those indicate that something deeper is happening. And on a physiological level, what is happening in our body when we are triggered and having that disproportionate response, whether it's the outward one where we're screaming and yelling and doing things we don't mean or the inward one where we're disconnecting, kind of shutting down, going numb, it's something... We are being flooded, right, with emotion, with nervous system dysregulation. We're seeing threat or old experience in the present moment. So I always like to explain that-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm-hmm
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
... because I think those are the most shameful moments where once our body calms down, we have a new perspective. We're like, "Why did I say or do that thing that I didn't necessarily mean or didn't align?" And the why again is all driven by our body, by the chemicals, the hormones, the dysregulation in our nervous system that is taking over and shifting us from the, the grounded, logical, the responsive, how we want to show up, and instead dropping us right back into all these instincts that we have been talking about.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah. Sometimes if you think about how much our childhoods affect us in our adult bodies, it's amazing that anyone gets on, right? [laughs]
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
[laughs]
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
You... Really, because, because we, we don't see the world-
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
No
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... as it is. We see the world as we are.
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Mm-hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Right? And, and often this is really brought home to us when we get involved in an intimate relationship, right? Because then you often have two unhealed inner childs-
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
[laughs]
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... who then come-
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Mm-hmm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... together 'cause they're in love, and they, they might choose to get married. And then suddenly you realize- [laughs]
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Mm-hmm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... oh, many aspects of our personalities are just children, right?
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Oh.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
We haven't tended to that inner child that perhaps needed certain things that he or she didn't get-
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Mm-hmm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... when they were younger, right? So it does make us think about how much of the division in the world-
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Mm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... is driven by dysregulated nervous systems.
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
As far as I'm concerned, I think all of it, right? Because when we are in survival mode, right, which w- when, when our nervous system is activated, however kind of that looks to you, the fight, the flee, the shut down response, right, through all those behavioral adaptations-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm-hmm
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
... what is quite literally happening in our body is our focus is narrowing to ourself.Right? This idea of a lot of talk is happening now, let me put it that way, around this concept of narcissism, right, this self-focus. I believe that it exists quite literally on a spectrum. And the more activated and dysregulated we are, the more we are fighting for our survival in terms of our nervous system, the more unable we are to see or care about another's perspective, wants, needs, emotions, in any given situation, even if it's our closest loved one.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm.
- 44:24 – 51:07
Busyness as a survival strategy—and the ancestral roots of dysregulation
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah. In the book, you make the case that constant busyness, which is something that many people struggle with, is a sign of a dysregulated nervous system, and can be thought of as a survival strategy. Can you explain?
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
So keeping ourself busy, right, on like, on a surface sense of things, it keeps our attention somewhere. It keeps us moving in action. If we look beneath the surface at what that behavior is doing, it's keeping our attention outward, not inward on us. Right? It's keeping us moving.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm.
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
For a lot of us who never had safety and security, the ability to just, as I kind of intro the book, just be in childhood, rest, feel at ease, right, stillness, solitude. I mean, there was a time where I lived in the busiest city in the world, New York City. I thought I would live and die in a city where there was constant noise, constant stimulation. While I loved snowboarding, I would go to the mountains and snowboard, I had to have a television on at night because the sound of solitude, of silence, of not having all of my days planned, whether it was with things I wanted to achieve or even plans with friends. The minute my body was needing or had to or had the opportunity to stop, what was I met with? The agitation, the overwhelming sensations that busyness was protecting me from. So I think busyness becomes an outward manifestation of a kind of dysregulated nervous system, the energy inside-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
... that's being translated to attentional focus outside and to doing. Again, because we didn't learn, it didn't feel safe-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
... to stop, not to do. We didn't feel enough, maybe, when we were... Some of us even got very direct messaging on to avoid, right, sitting. It's lazy. It's this, it's that. And so we don't have that, whether it was kind of very direct in that manner or indirect, because in stillness meant waiting for the next explosion. Or maybe in your childhood, there was never a moment of quiet. There was always yelling, unpredictability. So now your nervous system registers peace, ease as so unfamiliar, right, that it's to be avoided because it's going back to that moment where it wasn't safe-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
... or it wasn't possible, even.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah. You, you write about this right at the start of your book, don't you? How in your childhoods you were always-
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Mm-hmm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... kept busy. You were always scheduled, right? So the question then for me is was there already an existing dysregulated nervous system that was managed through scheduling you, or was it that the overscheduling of your childhood has resulted in you not knowing how to be still?
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
I think that I, like many of us, I was born with a, a dysregulated nervous system. Um, again, what we're talking about when I bring up even ancestors is epigenetics, right? The passing on, not necessarily of our DNA changing, but how our DNA is functioning. And so I think that the large majority of us who came from, right, insecure ancestral experiences, whether they were displaced by war, immigrated to a new country, there was abuse in the relational family and the kind of societal experience. We now know that right development begins in utero.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah.
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
That's when our brain begins to form. And so all of us who come from those families or even just those immediate environments where we have to think about what was happening in my mother's life as she was carrying me, how much stress was in the home-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
... how much cortisol, right, was closi- crossing the placenta. And so I have an idea of all of the stress that was in my home that came from my ancestors that was even around my pregnancy. So when my mom died, I was at my mother's funeral, and one of my aunts came up to me and shared with me, laughing, a story of... So I was unplanned. I was, my mom was 42 when I was born, and my dad was 45, and I had an older sister who was 15 and a brother who was 18. There was no plans to have a pregnancy that late in life. And so when my mom started to have symptoms of morning sickness, she disclosed to this aunt that she was very close with, a concern that she had stomach cancer. Very, you know, on, on brand for my family because we had a lot of health-related issues.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm.
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
My older sister included, had, or especially I should say my mom with chronic illness, but my sister with a lot of acute illnesses in her early childhood. So she would have never, right, thought, "Oh, this is pregnancy symptoms." She immediately went to stomach cancer. Long story short, she went to the doctor and was diagnosed with pregnancy with me. Right? But I think about those early m- weeks or however long it took my mom to get the diagnosis of pregnancy and how much cortisol and fear and worry of that I was stomach cancer was impacting my development. So again, whether it was acute in my family, but for me it goes back ancestors of, you know, a family who just had a lot of insecurity in a lot of ways. Studies will now show that there are children, many of us, who are born with hypersensitive amygdalas, limbic systems, nervous systems, where we are experiencing seeing and experiencing stress where perhaps there isn't, and having an overreaction to it. So as I intro the book, right, that from the moment I was born, I was, quote unquote, "bouncing off the walls," right? All of this overwhelming energy without a calm environment. I lived in a city, in addition to having stuff inside the home.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm.
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
There was noises outside the home. There were sirens. There was crime that was a very real risk. So much so that when I went to high school, some of my friends from the suburbs weren't allowed to come to my home. So all of this stress in my environment was manifesting in, as in childhood, were just emotion, were just movement. So I started to bounce off the walls, and my family, I think from a very well-intentioned manner, were trying to help me direct my energy, were trying to help themselves deal with me-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
... and all of my energy. And again, were setting me up to succeed. If they could find the thing I was good at and invest in the thing I was good at, academics ultimately and athletics, right, then I would-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
... have the success in life. But this is the case for a lot of us, where development... ancestral epigenetic changes. And this is why for a long time when I would learn in the field that, well, wait a minute, brains look different, so is it nature or nurture? And now epigenetics really marries the two. It says, yes, brains are going to be functioning and wired differently for some of us from in utero development, again, because these early adaptations to stress will change the way our brain functions because at one time when there was stress everywhere, it benefits us to be wired and prepare for stress-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
... around every corner. And it of course can be changed 'cause we can rewire ourself at any age. But to simply answer your question, I think I was born with that hypersensitive nervous system. Some of us call us highly sensitive kids. I think that's, again, dis- dysregulation that both of us are describing.
- 51:07 – 54:54
Intergenerational adaptation: epigenetics, food scarcity, and the Dutch Hunger Study
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Along that line of thought then, it's not only that it's our childhoods that are affecting our adult behaviors, it's our ancestors' lives.
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Mm-hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
What were the adaptations they needed to survive in the environments in which they used to live? I guess food would be an obvious-
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Mm-hmm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... thing, right? I think you write about this-
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Right
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... in the book, right?
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Mm-hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
So explain how food helps us see this through a different lens.
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Right. So even just make this a bit more concrete even, so women are born with all of the eggs that they will ever have. So, uh, the egg that developed, like all of us as humans, or went into our development, was actually created in the womb of our grandmother, right, as our mother was in her own gestation period. So to make this concrete for people, like quite literally [laughs] a part of us was living back then. So that is, again, impacting our environment. And from a very evolutionary standpoint-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
That's mad, isn't it?
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
That's crazy to con-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah.
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
And, and also too, to make it clear, sperm also very much plays a role where men and the health and their lifestyle choices and the sperm that would eventually go to create you, right, does begin the impact, I should say, begins before conception.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm.
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
So to be clear, both genders, right, everyone is playing a role, but again, women and, and the fact that their eggs are kind of, that's it, and that begins so early. And again, from a very evolutionary standpoint, makes total sense.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah.
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Right? If we were born into the same village where more or less circumstances did stay the same, why wouldn't that be beneficial? And so what I cite is a very fascinating study. It's called the Dutch Hunger Study.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah.
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
And so they investigated during the Netherlands several years ago, decades ago, there was a very severe famine, and so much so that there was like no, no food was available, and if it was, it had very limited nutritional content. And what they found was that women who were pregnant during this time when, of course, they, you know, kind of their ability, they... I'm gonna really simplify this. Their body changed in terms of the way they utilized energy, held onto fat, not being sure of when the next-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
... meal would come, made complete sense that their body did that. What they then saw in the children that were born to these women was the same sort of changes, where their body, the way it used energy, the way it held onto fat, and then over time, if there was no intervention, they would begin to evidence some physical diseases. Um, high blood pressure, cancer, a million different other things that would kind of be then the impact of very beautiful changes. 'Cause if we, if food is unpredictable, scarce, absent at all-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
[sighs]
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
... these changes helped that person survive. And then they're carried on for generations, assuming that that child is born, the offspring is born to the same environment. Of course, now things have changed. We have airplanes. We fly to different geographical locations.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah.
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Right? Society changes very quickly, where scarcity in one generation can change to another, yet we are still operating from a body that is wired for that early environment. Just to kind of bring the hope into that study, they then found that the offspring who, right, had access to nutrition, who had healthier lifestyles, were able to change kind of the way their bodies, the epigenetics of the way their own system functioned, that if they were to then have children, they would almost reverse in a very simple way the changes that had happened to prepare, prepare them to survive. But again, all of this is grounded in very beautiful adaptations, what was needed. Our lives have changed, and this is why a lot of us are carrying, wired into us even now, right? Some of us hold onto fat differently. We process things differently-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
... or we have these unspoken traumas where we're not living in a world of scarcity, but yet we're still wired to see lack instead of the abundance that perhaps is available, whether it's physical stuff, money, or emotional scarcity. Again, because this began generations before us when that was the lived experience.
- 54:54 – 1:16:13
From self-healing to societal change: regulation reduces division and improves relationships
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah. That's the opportunity, isn't it, for all of us? Like, if we are able to go in and heal, it doesn't just impact us. It also has a potential to impact future generations.
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Yeah.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Right? It works both ways, and it's... You know, I think one of the things that many of us feel these days is with all the awareness that exists out there about trauma and inner child work and the sort of things you're sharing and, and other people around the world are sharing, it's, it, it really does give me hope that there's an opportunity that this generation can start to heal. And if this generation can start to heal, it heals the wounds of the past, and it perhaps reduces many of the wounds for the future.
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
I couldn't agree more. I think even for those of us like myself who might not choose to have offspring, I mean, the work that we're doing, and this could sound lofty to some people, is we're, we're, we're beginning a new way of being-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Oh, yeah
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
... in our current society. Again, like I said, I truly believe that division, right, kind of the hurt people hurt people sta- saying, I believe that-To be true. So as we are-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
100%
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
... creating safety, security, healthier relationships, even if we don't choose to pass on the epigenetics, which is completely possible. I mean, this word cycle breakers is very real.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm.
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
We are breaking not only behavioral cycles, but physiological cycles of dysregulation, and gifting that then to our offspring, our future generations. But again, even if we choose not to have them, we're changing the world around us.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah.
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
And I think we're living at a time where a lot of us are feeling very helpless. We're now met and have a- accessibility to all of the suffering from around the world, and I think humans instinctually, right, wanna help, wanna know how to help people, and relieve the suffering. And I believe at least this is how we do that. We change the way we're functioning. We create safety and security in our interpersonal relationships, in our communities, wherever they might be.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm.
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
And then we're ch- we're literally changing the signals that our nervous system-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
... is sending to the world around us. And I always think about my community self-healer circle, and we have this really cool feature, and it's much like a Google Map, but it's a private one. And members can drop the pin in, you know, geographical locations, so they can connect with each other, and sometimes-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Right
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
... I go in there and my- I have chills. I just see from around the world all these little pins, and I think about, wow, all of these signals are beginning to shift from dysregulation, from fear, from division, to safety, security, acceptance, compassion. And I have hope, um, even at a hopeless time. So I really like to speak to empowerment, not only to change ourselves, again, to change our future generations, but to change now what is happening in the world.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah. I love that. You know, I very much see change as something that we do one person at a time, in the sense that you start changing who you are and how you show up, well, everyone who you interact with-
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Mm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... starts to experience that.
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Mm-hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
And again, it's not to have guilt or shame around it, it's just to remind ourselves that actually the way we show up matters. And if you don't like what's going on in the world, you wanna change the world, call me naive-
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Mm
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
... but I feel the best way you change the world is to start by changing yourself.
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
And I couldn't agree more, and I think it's very common, right? And a lot of us as we're struggling, say, in relationships, a theme throughout this conversation, it's so natural, right, to see the, the problem someone else is causing. "Well, if you just showed up differently or did a little of this, more of that-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
[laughs]
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
... right, then I'll just feel differently."
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah.
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
And of course that's natural to have that instinct of, "You change, not me." And again, I think one of the most difficult realities of life, aside from dealing with the uncertainty of all of it, is the lack of control. We can't. We can desperately want and wish someone would be different and to have a different experience with them in relationship, whatever the relationship might be, but it's not gonna be demanding, giving them an ultimatum. Oftentimes I see the word boundaries is misused, in my opinion-
- 1:16:13 – 1:54:12
Practical reparenting tools: real-time body awareness, presence, walking, and bilateral stimulation
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
We could spend so long, Nicole, talking about childhoods and, and all the different patterns. I would like t- us to talk about some practical things, however possible, in terms of what we can actually do. So healing is a two-step process. Number one, you've gotta become aware. Hopefully, throughout the conversation so far, people have started to become aware of elements of their childhoods and how it's impacting them as adults. Now, let's move on to what they can actually do and how they can make different choices.
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Mm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
There's a whole selection in the book. [laughs] There are just so many. Do you have a favorite one that you feel you'd like to share at this point in the conversation?
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
I wanna even just bring awareness into, beyond awareness that you're gaining from a podcast or in a therapist office or in a good conversation with a loved one. I want to bring awareness into the lived embodiment in real time, right? And what I mean when I say that is learning how to, as we're going about our day, and the most foundational tool that I'm always kind of citing going back to, whether you're in my membership or my books, is in real time awareness. Meaning, and we are all helped by, right, the phone that we carry around, that we can set-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm-hmm
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
... an alarm on or the Post-It note, you know, near our desk at work, or even the habit that already exists in our life, the fact that many of us brush our teeth at least once a day or drink a, have a drink of coffee, whatever it is. And so awareness is a lived, embodied experience, right? Not just the awareness that we're talking about, "Oh, I see my patterns," but in action in real time, rebuilding that connection with my body. So when that alarm goes off, when that, you know, we walk past the Post-It note, or we're at that kind of habit time where we wanna stack another habit onto, awareness exists in the ability to refocus our attention, not on our to-do list, not on the million needs that maybe our child has in front of us, but on us and our body. And it's as simple as, I call it a conscious check-in, where we shift the focus, right, and we begin to explore how my body is feeling in this moment.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm-hmm.
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
And I like to cite kind of three anchors for o- where we can shift our awareness to because these happen to be three physiological systems that shift and change-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
... as our body increases in stress. And so they are the tension in our muscles, right? Even just shifting our focus and noticing. A lot of us, until someone suggests that we do so, are not aware that we're clenching our jaw, that our shoulders are up to our ears, that our, we're, we're, we're bracing around our midsection. All of that tension, or on the other side of it, the numbness, the fact that I can't even feel the fact that I'm in a body that's surrounded by muscles. Usually, both of those are markers of how stressed my body has become.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm.
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Because as we become stressed, naturally energy builds, our muscles become tense, so we can fight or flee the situation at hand. The more chronic that stresses are overwhelming, the more some of us then drop to that kind of playing dead end of the spectrum, like animals do. We become numb. We can't even feel any energy in our muscles to get off the couch, even if we wanted to. We call it procrastination, lack of motivation, but again, it's our nervous system telling us that we're in a stressed state. So our muscles, a great place to refocus that attention. Maybe even just doing a quick scan of your body right now as you're listening and noticing kind of what end of that spectrum you're on or, or do you feel yourself. "Oh, I'm being held nicely. I'm at ease. I'm able to get up, up if I wanted to, but I don't feel so agitated that I have to get up and do something."
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah.
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Our breath is also a great marker of something we could shift our focus of attention to because our body is always breathing. Sometimes our breathing or our breathing shifts, and sometimes what we will notice is a stressed state of breathing where it's really quick and shallow-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
... indicating we're in that kind of sympathetic, energized state. Some of us are holding our breath. Even I often drop into my body and notice, oh, I've been holding my breath for a while. All of this bracing is shifting my breathing into a stressed state. And then those systems, the more stressed we become, impact our heart rate. So this consciousness and awareness that I'm talking aboutActually, in my opinion, has to come off of the insightful podcast moment or the moment in therapy-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
... where I, like, can talk about my pattern. It has to be a lived experience. Because if in those moments I notice that my body is stressed, then I could start to ask and explore and get curious if I don't yet know the answer. What does my body need, right? If I'm tense-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
... can I relax a bit and create more ease in my muscles? If I'm holding my breath, right, can I begin to release that restriction and allow my body to breathe? Or if it's so quick, can I slow it down?
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah.
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Because now we're living the experience of awareness, we can then drop into our mind, right? What am I interpreting? What meaning am I making of the situation that's creating the impact emotionally in my body, right? And now we start to build choice. With a regulated body, right, we can now begin to choose to show up in a way that kind of breaks those habits. Because again, the first step is awareness so that I can break the habitual reaction and then create the new opportunity-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
... by saying, "What is it that I need?" Getting curious, because I think a lot of us, again, have the expectation that I just know what I need. If you've never practiced, though, connecting with your body, you might not exactly know what feels good and supportive to you when you're angry, sad. You might not even have those words in the moment, and you're just connecting with the heaviness, the agitation-
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
Mm
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
... and then, right, helping your body, helping yourself first be in presence with those sensations, and then helping your body to process them.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
That was beautiful, and so many things came up for me as you were talking. Firstly, this idea that awareness has multiple levels. It's not just awareness in your mind.
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
Mm-hmm.
- RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee
"Oh, I understand now how Mom and Dad doing this for me when I was a kid has affected me in adulthood." That's great, but that's awareness with the mind. Now you're saying there's also awareness with the body, and even as you were just describing it, I let my belly go out-
- NLDr. Nicole LePera
[laughs]
Episode duration: 1:54:12
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