Skip to content
Dr Rangan ChatterjeeDr Rangan Chatterjee

Your Gut Needs More Than Probiotics! | Dr Will Bulsiewicz

The Thrive Tour: Transform Your Health and Happiness, a live show: Book Your Tickets https://drchatterjee.com/live This episode is brought to you by: LINGO BY ABBOTT: For users in the US and UK, Lingo by Abbott is offering an exclusive 10% off a 4-week plan with the code LIVEMORE10. Just visit https://hellolingo.com/livemore for more information. Terms and conditions apply. THE WAY APP: Get 30 FREE days and begin your journey towards peace, calm and wellbeing. https://thewayapp.com/livemore What if your gut health is affecting far more than your digestion? In this episode, I’m joined by Dr Will Bulsiewicz, a gastroenterologist and leading expert on the gut microbiome, to explore why the health of our gut matters so much to our overall health. Will explains what the gut microbiome actually does, and why it has such a powerful influence on the body. We explore why so many of us aren’t getting enough fibre, how quickly the microbiome can respond to changes in our diet, and why eating a diverse range of foods matters. Will also explains the four key components of an anti-inflammatory diet, including fibre and resistant starch. We talk about the surprising benefits of foods such as green bananas and cooled potatoes, and why supporting your gut involves much more than taking a probiotic. We discuss ultra-processed foods and restrictive diets, including why removing foods can sometimes improve symptoms without necessarily addressing the underlying health of the gut. Will explains what it takes to rebuild a healthy and diverse microbiome, and why small, consistent changes can make a difference. Will shares his own experience of emotional healing, and we explore the relationship between our physical and emotional health. We discuss how unresolved experiences can sometimes affect the body, and why feeling heard and understood can be an important part of the healing process. If you’ve ever wondered what your gut is really doing for your health, or why gut health is about so much more than digestion, this conversation will give you plenty to think about. 🌱 Want to feel better and live more? Subscribe for new conversations that could change how you think about your health and your life. ________________________________________ Episode Chapters 00:00 Intro 00:22 The Gut Control Centre of Your Health 05:40 How Does the Microbiome Function? 07:33 Training the Gut Microbiome 12:08 How Your Diet Changes Your Gut 19:03 Inflammation and the Gut 29:09 What Happens To an Imbalanced Gut 35:42 How To Improve Your Gut Microbiome 43:27 The Amount Of Fibre You Should Be Eating 50:10 The Way You Cook Your Food Matters! 56:20 Why Resistant Starch Is So Important 1:02:30 The Benefits Of Eating A Diverse Diet 1:09:00 What Ultra-Processed Food Does To Your Gut 1:16:00 Can You Really Heal Your Gut? 1:23:00 The Gut-Brain Connection 1:30:00 How Your Emotions Affect Your Gut 1:37:00 Will’s Own Healing Journey 1:44:00 How To Support Your Gut Health 1:51:00 Will’s Final Advice #feelbetterlivemore Find out more about Dr Bulsiewicz: Website https://theguthealthmd.com/ Tik Tok https://www.tiktok.com/@theguthealthmd Facebook https://www.facebook.com/theguthealthmd/ Instagram https://instagram.com/theguthealthmd YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@theguthealthmd Dr Bulsiewicz’s latest book: Plant Powered Plus: Activate the Power of Your Gut to Tame Inflammation and Reclaim Your Health UK https://link.amazon/B0c2YZ0dX US https://amzn.to/4xz3Eo3 #feelbetterlivemore #feelbetterlivemorepodcast ------- Order MAKE CHANGE THAT LASTS. US & Canada version https://amzn.to/3RyO3SL, UK version https://amzn.to/3Kt5rUK ----- Follow Dr Chatterjee at: Website: https://drchatterjee.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/drchatterjee Twitter: https://twitter.com/drchatterjeeuk Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drchatterjee/ Newsletter: https://drchatterjee.com/subscription DISCLAIMER: The content in the podcast and on this webpage is not intended to constitute or be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on the podcast or on my website.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjeehost
Sep 9, 20261h 55mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 0:22

    Intro

    1. RC

      I wanted to start off by putting to you something that Hippocrates said over 2,000 years ago, "All disease begins in the gut." What's your take on that?

    2. WB

      I think he was right. And I, and I do think that there's ancient wisdom there. To me, and I'd be curious what your thoughts are on this, science is the art of observation,

  2. 0:22 – 5:40

    The Gut Control Centre of Your Health

    1. WB

      right? The, the world is gonna carry on. Things are going to happen, and science is how we start to observe what's happening, and it took us so long to finally circle back to this. Now, Hippocrates is not the only one, right? Ayurveda has a strong tradition of discussing the ways in which things focus through the gut. But what we have now is finally the scientific tools that we need, the power in our computers in order for us to finally study these microbes that we were unable to get access to.

    2. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    3. WB

      And we're discovering that this is the interface between not only our body and different health systems within our body, but it also is the interface with the outside world.

    4. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    5. WB

      And so everything that we're going to discuss today, it converges in this location, and I think Hippocrates was exactly right.

    6. RC

      Yeah, it's interesting to me that so many ancient traditions have spoken about the importance of the gut. For me, growing up as a kid in an Indian family who emigrated to the UK-

    7. WB

      Mm

    8. RC

      ... so many things that I now write about and talk about that modern science is confirming is kind of what Mom and Dad used to do with me when I was a kid, which I actually find very liberating. But I sort of feel that as a profession we've denigrated so much stuff that has existed for many, many years because we never had the evidence. Meditation's an example, right? Meditation was looked down upon for many years by Western scientific culture until we got the evidence to go, "Oh, actually there's a lot here." Do you know what I mean? So I kind of, I think we have to acknowledge that as Western-trained medical doctors that what we're talking about, both you and me, is stuff that other cultures have sort of had an instinct towards for many years.

    9. WB

      I think what you're getting at is the humility of being a medical doctor, the humility of being a scientist, to not believe that I'm absolutely correct, but instead to say that there is this bigger story, and what I'm trying to do is put the pieces of the puzzle together.

    10. RC

      Mm.

    11. WB

      And, and, you know, going back to these ancient traditions, uh, my definition of, like, what is science being the art of observation, they were observing too.

    12. RC

      Yeah, yeah.

    13. WB

      They just weren't doing it with a laptop, right? And it was more over the case of thousands of years-

    14. RC

      Mm

    15. WB

      ... that they're collecting their observations and building their system of how they approach health.

    16. RC

      Yeah, absolutely. Well, let's get into gut health. This is something you've been talking about for years. All of your books, I guess, in some way, you know, touch on the topic of gut health. How do you think about this for someone who's never heard of the term gut health before?

    17. WB

      Well, there was a time where this interview, you know, there would be people that have never heard of this. I'm pretty sure you've at least heard a little bit about this, but I would love to apply my definition of what I see.

    18. RC

      Sure.

    19. WB

      Which is that, you know, we think of the gut as being, uh, where digestion occurs, but I think there's a much bigger story there. And when we talk about gut health as, as the version that I see, we're talking about the story of the gut microbiome and how those microbes, which are-- they're not a part of our body, they're not human, yet they are there in staggering numbers, more than the number of cells that we have in our body, more than 99% of our genetic code-

    20. RC

      Mm

    21. WB

      ... deeply intertwined with our human physiology to the point that we, I would argue, are 100% dependent on them in order to be healthy. And the story of gut health is that those microbes, they have a powerful influence over our digestion, but also, in my new book, our immune system, inflammation. And we could go beyond and talk about our metabolism, our hormones, our mood, our brain health. So, uh, to me, like, this is the command center for human health. And when we talk about gut health, that's what we're talking about, is the gut microbiome and how that impacts our health throughout our entire body, not just our digestion.

    22. RC

      Yeah. One of the things I enjoyed reading about in your latest book is an idea that I don't think people think about enough. You write about this idea that the job of the microbiome is to train the immune system, and I think it's something we should absolutely explore. I don't think that has been covered that much so far on my podcast. I think, you know, I'd love to hear you talk about what that actually means.

    23. WB

      Sure. So let's, let's start by imagine for a moment that we pull out our microscope and we're going to zoom in on this part of our body because there are things that exist there that we can't see with the naked eye.

    24. RC

      Mm.

    25. WB

      Yet we are filled with life, these microbes.

    26. RC

      Mm.

    27. WB

      38 trillion is the number that we estimate for our gut microbiome, and these 38 trillion microbe-- By the way, that number is crazy. [laughs]

    28. RC

      Yeah.

    29. WB

      All right. We have to pause and say that, like, you would, you would, you would need to literally take 380 galaxies full of stars and insert that into your body 380 times to equal the number of microbes that we have living inside of us right now as we sit here and talk to one another.

    30. RC

      Yeah.

  3. 5:40 – 7:33

    How Does the Microbiome Function?

    1. WB

      are just like us. They, um, they have unique skill sets. They have different jobs. They have different personalities. There's sort of cliques. Like, there's certain-

    2. RC

      Mm

    3. WB

      ... ones that hang out and there's friends. There's sort of frenemies or people that don't get along with each other. They go against each other at times, right? They are just like us. And I think sometimes about this when I'm up on an airplane and I look down and I see- ... down below. I can't see the people down there, but I know they're there.

    4. RC

      Mm.

    5. WB

      Right? So, and these microbes, they are, they are performing really essential tasks, which includes maintaining our gut barrier. So inside of us, our intestines is coated with this single layer of cells, that is the, the gut epithelium. And that single layer of cells h- has a really important job. Allow the good stuff in, keep the bad stuff out, because on the other side of that single layer is where 70% of our immune cells live.

    6. RC

      Mm.

    7. WB

      So just to set this up, we have our gut microbiome, we have our gut barrier, and we have our immune system, 70% of it, and they're all right next to each other-

    8. RC

      Mm-hmm

    9. WB

      ... in close proximity. And these microbes, you know, we're not born like completely, totally sterile-

    10. RC

      Mm-hmm

    11. WB

      ... but that's as close as we'll ever be to that. And from that point forward, from the moment that we're born, we are acquiring and recruiting our microbiome that starts to develop during those first three years of life.

    12. RC

      Mm.

    13. WB

      Where by the time a person is, a child is two to three years of age, they have a basically fully formed adult-sized gut microbiome.

    14. RC

      Mm.

    15. WB

      It's during this time that the immune system is simultaneously learning-

    16. RC

      Yeah

    17. WB

      ... and understanding like what is good, what is bad. 'Cause the immune cells, they have a complex problem too. They, they don't want, the immune system doesn't want to react-

    18. RC

      Yeah

    19. WB

      ... to things that it shouldn't react to, but we- it has to be

  4. 7:33 – 12:08

    Training the Gut Microbiome

    1. WB

      properly trained.

    2. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    3. WB

      So it's the gut microbiome dur- particularly during this period of time, but then carrying on throughout the rest of our life, that those microbes are ultimately having an impact directly on those, on that 70% of those immune cells that are just right there in close proximity. And we see this because if we take a step back and we think about this, you know, for the listeners at home, I want you to think about the child who's exposed to repeated courses of antibiotics, right? Or think about, uh, bottle feeding instead of breastfeeding, which is a modern concept, or a cesarean section, which again, that's also a modern concept that didn't exist that long ago, right? And these are things that sort of disrupt the development of the gut microbiome. Antibiotics, bottle feeding, cesarean section, and each of those three things has been associated with immune-mediated health conditions further down the line. So that could be allergic, like food allergies or eczema, but it also could be autoimmune type health conditions.

    4. RC

      Yeah. I mean, there's so much to cover there. This idea that when we're born, our guts are as close to sterile as they will be, I think it's worth us all reflecting on. And of course, in the olden days, you know, everyone was born via vaginal delivery. And my understanding is that one of the first, or one of the most significant inputs to our gut is us traveling down the vaginal canal before we're born, right? That is starting the process of training our immune system. Even that idea that the immune system is something that is there to be trained, I, I just absolutely love it. It's not this static thing that you, you know, you're born with it, you have your immune system. No. The, the inputs you give your, uh, your body through maybe dietary choices, maybe stress, maybe the, the wrong type of sleep or whatever it might be, that is all information. Your immune system is constantly trying to learn and adapt. So I think that's a, a really beautiful thing for us to think about. I, I wanna make sure, we, we don't have to necessarily cover it now, but we must cover it at some point, because there will be people, Will, who just heard what you said, and they'll be thinking, "Oh man, well, well, my child had recurrent ear infections, and they had loads of antibiotics," or, "I had problems with my pregnancy and I had to have a cesarean section," right? Which maybe was the best thing for me and the child. And so some people will be thinking, "Oh my God, are you saying that I'm destined to have gut problems because of that?" And I, I'm pretty sure you're not saying that.

    5. WB

      No, I'm absolutely not saying that. And it is, it is a delicate thing because that is sort of the way that many people will react. I understand that. All four of my children, I have four kids, they were all born by ces- cesarean section. It is not what I wanted, uh, or my wife, but it's what happens.

    6. RC

      Yeah.

    7. WB

      And, um, you can absolutely have healthy children, uh, regardless of the way in which they were born, regar- regardless of whether they're breastfed or bottle fed, regardless of, uh, exposure to antibiotics as a kid. If a child needs antibiotics, in my own family, 100% my child will receive those antibiotics if they need them, right? I push back against unnecessary antibiotics-

    8. RC

      Yeah

    9. WB

      ... which is what we should do. Um, so and these, these risks are not absolute risks. So, you know, as, as, as we know from listening to your show, as we know from reading your books, uh, the choices that we make in life or the things that maybe we don't have a choice over but they do occur, they impact our health, right? But at the same time, you could do everything right and still struggle with your health. Or there are those people that they, you know, they, they, they do things that neither of us would recommend, and they still end up living to 90 years old, and we can't explain it. So these things are complex-

    10. RC

      Yeah

    11. WB

      ... is the point. And it's not, it's not so simple as, oh, this one thing and therefore I'm, I'm in trouble.

    12. RC

      One, one of the most empowering things I've heard you say, Will, is that, and you can, you know, clarify the exact timeframe on this, but the choices we make today can literally lead to a different microbiome within days. You know, I mean, I guess the, the question being-

    13. WB

      Sure

    14. RC

      ... how quickly can the choices we make influence the state of our gut microbes, our gut lining, and our immune system, the three things that you've been talking about?

    15. WB

      Literally by tomorrow.

  5. 12:08 – 19:03

    How Your Diet Changes Your Gut

    1. WB

      Literally by tomorrow, there's already changes that are underway. Now, are we installing a brand-new gu- gut microbiome? Are we completely transforming it in 24 hours? Absolutely not. That would be in, that would be, you know, oversold. But it, it goes back to a study from 2014, and in fact, this is a study that I personally love because it changed my life and really set me on this trajectory where it was published in Nature, uh, the top medical journal on the planet.

    2. RC

      Mm.

    3. WB

      And it was the, the lead author, if anyone wants to find this study, it's not hard. You go to Google, and you type in Nature David 2014.

    4. RC

      Okay. [laughs]

    5. WB

      Okay? And this will be the first thing that pops up, and the, the h- lead researcher, his name was Lawrence David out of Duke University. Here's what they did. It, prior to you have ... This wasn't that long ago, but in the world of research, it seems like it was-

    6. RC

      Mm

    7. WB

      ... a lifetime ago. Prior to 2014, we did not have hu- clear human research showing that you could change the gut microbiome with food.

    8. RC

      Mm.

    9. WB

      We had mouse studies. So what they did was to ask the question, can we pull this off? Can we change the microbiome by manipulating the diet?

    10. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    11. WB

      And the way that they approached that was to create two diametrically opposed dietary patterns.

    12. RC

      Mm.

    13. WB

      So they did one that was completely 100% plant based and one that was completely 100% animal based, and it was five days on each of those dietary patterns for each individual person, and they measured on a daily basis the gut microbiome. So one of the key findings from that study was that they could detect differences within the microbiome in the first 24 hours, that already changes were underway. The changes at day five are larger than the changes on day, day one.

    14. RC

      Mm.

    15. WB

      Um, and you know, there's other findings that came out of that study as well that were quite interesting, but the, the point though is that that alone was enough for us to see that the food that you're eating today, by tomorrow, it will impact these microbes. And Rangan, there's, there's a, there's an explanation for this-

    16. RC

      Mm

    17. WB

      ... which is that these microbes, their superpower is their ability to reproduce.

    18. RC

      Mm.

    19. WB

      So it's kind of like, uh, like gerbils, like mice, like, or, or there's many other animals out there where it's just like they produce so many offspring, and that's how they beat the system.

    20. RC

      Mm.

    21. WB

      Uh, these microbes, it's estimated that about every 20 minutes they may be producing a new generation.

    22. RC

      Wow.

    23. WB

      So it takes us 30 years. It takes them 20 minutes, and if you were to take that and basically like do it over the course of a 24-hour period, you could kick out enough generations that if it was humans, it would bring us all the way back to the pyramids. So a 24-hour period for them, it's like the movie Inception. A 24-hour period for them is a profound amount of time because time runs differently for them.

    24. RC

      When you were chatting a few minutes ago, Will, and talking about you see it a bit like when you're on a plane, and you know you're traveling, and you can't see the detail of what's going on down below, but you know, oh my God, there are tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions of humans over where I'm flying, but I can't see them, but they're doing something. It was very evocative for me, and the thing that came to, to, to my head there was this, this thought about community, right? Because it's not just about nurturing our relationship to other humans. It's about nurturing our relationship to this huge community that most of us are not aware of. Even if we're aware of it, we're aware of it cognitively. That, oh, yeah, you know, gut health is important. Yeah, but how often do we think about that when we go about our, our everyday life? But what you're saying is really quite profound, which is that there are trillions of organisms inside you. That is your community, and if you look after this community, this community is gonna help look after you as well.

    25. WB

      That is a hu- first of all, 100% true. Um, and when they are, when they are built to support our body, we are at our best as humans, and they want that to be true-

    26. RC

      Mm

    27. WB

      ... because then we become the vessel by which they continue to carry on.

    28. RC

      Mm.

    29. WB

      Right? They can continue, they can continue, so they, they... They're looking for us to be successful. It's a true symbiotic relationship.

    30. RC

      Mm.

  6. 19:03 – 29:09

    Inflammation and the Gut

    1. RC

      board with this idea that actually what happens in the gut barrier, it, and the gut lumen is very, very important. Okay, so you've mentioned that there are these kind of three things that we need to be thinking about. The, the gut microbes, the, the one cell guts lining, and then the immune system, right? And you're saying these three things are all in close proximity to each other, and one of the ways we influence them is through our dietary choices. There are other ways, of course, we can influence them.

    2. WB

      Mm-hmm.

    3. RC

      But that's one of the ways. I, I really wanna talk about lipopolysaccharide, or LPS, and inflammation. Those two things, of course, are tightly linked together, but how does that fit into this story?

    4. WB

      So within, within the gut microbiome, they ... A- again, they're just like us. Most of them are good guys.

    5. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    6. WB

      Right? When we have a healthy society, it's filled with wonderful people-

    7. RC

      Mm

    8. WB

      ... that are working hard and supporting each other, but there still will be crime.

    9. RC

      Mm.

    10. WB

      Right? There still will be criminals who are causing trouble. And so in a healthy society, the good ones outnumber the bad ones, and they suppress the bad ones. They take them out of the equation. That's what happens in our gut, too.

    11. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    12. WB

      But when the gut starts to wear down and break down, then we can have the emergence of these inflammatory bacteria, and they, they have evolved with a protective shell. It's like their armor, their coat of armor.

    13. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    14. WB

      And it surrounds their cell, and it's called lipopolysaccharide.

    15. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    16. WB

      And you and I know this because we trained with, i- in the hospital with-

    17. RC

      Yeah

    18. WB

      ... patients who were suffering the consequences of lipopolysaccharide overload, and we call this sepsis.

    19. RC

      Mm.

    20. WB

      So if you go into the intensive care unit, this is what you see.

    21. RC

      Yeah.

    22. WB

      People on breathing tubes, people on life support, and it's the consequence of, of bacterial, uh, endotoxin, which is the same thing as lipopolysaccharide. All right? This lipopolysaccharide is a part of these bacteria. These bacteria are inside of us. Even in a healthy gut, these bacteria are inside of us. So but when, uh, when we have breakdown of the, the system, there's more of them. They're more powerfully represented, and simultaneously, the, the gut microbiome, these microbes are the stewards of the gut barrier.

    23. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    24. WB

      Their job is to constantly maintain and repair that gut barrier for us. So when they're well, and they're doing their job, and they're properly fed, we have a strong defense- defensive gut barrier that keeps us healthy.

    25. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    26. WB

      As they wear down, the gut- the gut barrier wears down as well, and this allows things to sneak across. And this is a very clearly demonstrated physiology, and we call it, from a scientific perspective, increased intestinal permeability, but I also accept the term leaky gut because that's what's happening.

    27. RC

      Yeah.

    28. WB

      Things can sneak across, and what can sneak across are these bacteria with ha- that have this lipopolysaccharide. It's in microdoses. It's a very small amount. It's not the same as the person in the ICU. It's a little microdose, but when they sneak across, your immune system has been pre-trained to identify that specific, uh, pattern and to acknowledge it and take it out.

    29. RC

      Yeah.

    30. WB

      So-

  7. 29:09 – 35:42

    What Happens To an Imbalanced Gut

    1. WB

      have is we have a loss of gut diversity. So earlier I said more diversity is good, so now I'm saying the opposite is bad. When we lose gut diversity, the system is not as strong and resilient-

    2. RC

      Hmm

    3. WB

      ... as it used to be. And simultaneously, you will see a smaller representation from the anti-inflammatory beneficial gut bacteria, the ones that we celebrate, the ones that people take as probiotics.

    4. RC

      Hmm.

    5. WB

      They're getting diminished. They're not as well represented. They're not as capable as they used to be. And you see a bloom or emergence of what we call these inflammatory bacteria that include E. coli or other gram-neg Salmonella. The, o- these, these other bacteria that, that, uh, we're discussing now within the context of lipopolysaccharide. So, so basically dysbiosis means that the gut microbiome is not as healthy as it used to be. That's the simple term-

    6. RC

      A, a bit like-

    7. WB

      ... for this

    8. RC

      ... this neighborhood analogy, right? Let's say in your neighborhoods, y- let's say you're lucky enough to, to live somewhere safe, right? Where, yeah, there are probably some untoward things going on, but you don't really see it much, right? Because generally speaking, everything's okay, right? That's a well-functioning neighborhood, a well-functioning gut. C- could we perhaps look at it like a dysbiotic gut is maybe like a dysbiotic neighborhood where there's high crime and there's a lot of problems, right?

    9. WB

      That's right.

    10. RC

      Yeah, it's just the balance has shifted.

    11. WB

      100%. And that doesn't mean, that doesn't mean that there aren't good people in that challenged neighborhood.

    12. RC

      Exactly.

    13. WB

      Right? There are good people there, but the problem is those good people, they're kind of in hiding. Because of the chaos, because of the violence that exists within that neighborhood. So it's hard for them, right? So what we wanna do is we wanna, we want to repair and restore that neighborhood and r- and build it into one of these safe communities that really is productive and, um, uh, a great place for people to live. So, so that's kind of what we're getting at here. And, you know, as I, as I looked at those 130 health conditions, not only did I prove that every single one has inflammation, I also proved w- again, with references, every single one of them, when you look at the gut microbiome, what you discover is dysbiosis in every single condition that's listed.

    14. RC

      Yeah. As many of you know, when glucose is relatively stable, you feel better day to day with steadier energy, mood, and focus. But over time, unstable and elevated glucose can also impair your metabolic health and increase the risk of type 2 diabetes and cardiovascular disease. Now, globally, more than 760 million adults are thought to have pre-diabetes, many without symptoms or a diagnosis. And the problem is that our healthcare system often waits until you get sick before taking action, when we should take a proactive approach to prevent problems before they start. Now, many of us don't have access to our own glucose data and therefore don't have clear feedback on how our everyday choices impact our glucose. That's where Lingo by Abbott comes in. Lingo is a biosensor and app that helps you see how food, movement, and lifestyle choices affect your glucose in real time, so you can notice patterns and build healthier habits in the moment. With Lingo, you can get to know your glucose to build healthy habits for today and tomorrow. For listeners in the US and the UK, Lingo by Abbott is offering an exclusive 10% off a 4-week plan. Just scan the QR code on screen or visit hellolingo.com/livemore for more information. Terms and conditions do apply. 10, 11 years ago, when I was starting to write my, my very first book, I went into a lot of the research on lipopolysaccharides-

    15. WB

      Mm

    16. RC

      ... and for a condition that's called type 2 diabetes that many people know about. I think this was done in animal models from recollection now. It was a 2012 study which seemed to suggest, and I was quite convinced actually, that the lipopolysaccharide transfer across the gut lining might be the primary insult that then leads on to insulin resistance.

    17. WB

      Mm-hmm.

    18. RC

      Right? Which is really interesting, isn't it? Because I guess what we're saying is that if you've got a well-protected gut barrier, because chronic unresolved inflammation and dysbiosis is linked with so many different conditions, instead of treating them all separately, if you are able to have a lifestyle as much as possible that supports healthy gut bugs, a healthy gut lining that is not leaky, and therefore you're sending the right or the better helpful signals to your immune system, you're gonna dramatically reduce your risk of getting a whole variety of different conditions.

    19. WB

      Yes.

    20. RC

      Yeah?

    21. WB

      Uh, so the answer is yes. And now I, and I know that you, um, like we could do an entire podcast on this topic, right?

    22. RC

      I know. [laughs]

    23. WB

      So it, these are complex topics that we're discussing, and I know that i- if we did a whole podcast, you and I would be talking about all of the different inputs that create, for example, insulin resistance-

    24. RC

      Mm

    25. WB

      ... or metabolic disease, and the gut microbiome obviously is not the only one.

    26. RC

      Of course.

    27. WB

      Right? So there's, there's other aspects to this, but what you're getting at is that we have overlooked these microbes and the impact of chronic low-grade inflammation on the development of metabolic disease. Yet everything that you're discussing f- so number one, the four pillar plan, food, uh, sleep, exercise, movement, and relaxation, those are the exact same things that I'm discussing-

    28. RC

      Yeah

    29. WB

      ... in my book because they impact the gut and ultimately impact the immune system. So it's the same story, it's just told a different way.

    30. RC

      Yeah.

  8. 35:42 – 43:27

    How To Improve Your Gut Microbiome

    1. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    2. WB

      And it's connected back to the gut microbiome and this lipopolysaccharide, and this ultimately, you know, Rangan, you might be taking care of-- I'm not a primary care doctor, I'm a gastroenterologist, but you might be taking care of someone who has high blood pressure, high cholesterol, type 2 diabetes, obesity, and that's four different diagnoses according to your job. And what you and I are doing is sitting here right now and saying, "But it comes back to one root cause."

    3. RC

      Yeah. And how do we affect that root cause as, in a, in a sustainable way, I guess, right?

    4. WB

      Well, I think the gut microbiome is the opportunity that we have because that's the part that can be manipulated, right? So we've already established that the choices that you make with your diet will start to change your microbiome by tomorrow. But if we look at the four pillar plan, 'cause that's food, I would also... there's a, a clear argument with exercise. We could talk about different forms of exercise-

    5. RC

      Mm

    6. WB

      ... and what the data suggests with the gut microbiome and inflammation. There's clear evidence with sleep, which is discussed in chapter six of my brand-new book. Sleep is completely free, often overlooked, and critically important to all of us.

    7. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    8. WB

      Right? And then my favorite chapter of my new book is chapter eight-

    9. RC

      That's my favorite chapter in it as well

    10. WB

      [laughs] It's the best chapter that I've ever written, and it's, it's the, it's the brain-gut connection, and it's about stress and human relationships and spiritual connection

    11. RC

      Yeah. Uh, I wanna talk about chapter eight. Um, before I do that, though, I wanna make sure that we've covered these four workhorses of an anti-inflammatory diet, right? That you, you write about so beautifully. Okay. So I think we've set out the problem, okay? We, we could [laughs] of course spend another two hours discussing more of the nuances about the problems in the guts, but I think we've broadly speaking set out that many of us are living in ways that mean that our gut's microbiome and our gut barrier has been disrupted, right? So the question then becomes: what are some of the things that we can do to improve it? Okay. Especially 'cause we said before, like some people have had loads of antibiotics, which will have had an impact. Certainly some people are more susceptible than others, but that will have happened. Some people will have been b- born by cesarean and not vaginal delivery. Okay, fine. These things happen. Some people will have been bottle-fed and not breastfed. Okay, so we've all got a different starting point in life. Both you and I are very passionate about saying, yeah, okay, fine, whatever's happened has happened. What can we do now? So through the lens of diet, and of course, as you mentioned, there are other pillars of how to look at when we're thinking about gut's health, diet can be a very powerful way to influence our gut microbiome. I, I quite liked your framing. So can you tell us about these four workhorses? What are they, and why do you think they're so important?

    12. WB

      Sure. So, um, diet is probably the most powerful lever, but not the only one.

    13. RC

      More than kissing?

    14. WB

      Uh, more than [laughs] more than kissing, but kissing is great.

    15. RC

      Okay. [laughs]

    16. WB

      We, we wanna, we wanna bring together all of these different things and have them all working for us.

    17. RC

      [laughs]

    18. WB

      So, um, diet is probably the most powerful lever on average. There are definitely listeners to this show that diet is not what they need.

    19. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    20. WB

      There's other things. We'll get into that. But for the average person, I look out and I say ca- culture has failed us, both in the UK and the US. If you accept the w- like if you're just gonna accept the norm-

    21. RC

      Mm-hmm

    22. WB

      ... we're in trouble.

    23. RC

      Oh, yeah.

    24. WB

      Right? So ultimately, you and I, our platforms are about disrupting that and asking people to do something radical, which is to go their own way and choose health. And so as I, uh, step into a conversation about nutrition, the way that I think about this is like this whole world of, of dietary tribalism where people are fighting on the internet about like, you know, standing behind some name for a diet, whether it be carnivore or, or vegan or plant-based or keto, is silly.

    25. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    26. WB

      Who cares what you call it? There's these basic things that we need. That's what this conversation of the four workhorses is. Here are the four basic things that we need, and not only do we need them, but I'm choosing the things that are missing from the average British person, from the average American's diet.

    27. RC

      Mm.

    28. WB

      Because that's where the opportunity exists. If I ask you to do the thing that you're already doing, that doesn't give me any advantage.

    29. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    30. WB

      But if I take the thing that you're not doing on a-- like for, for the average person out there, if I take the thing that the average person out there is not doing right now and I change that because the change is going to, uh, transform their health, that's my goal. That's what-- That helps me to accomplish what I'm trying to accomplish, which is to make people healthy.

  9. 43:27 – 50:10

    The Amount Of Fibre You Should Be Eating

    1. RC

      Mm

    2. WB

      ... from fiber. They are the most anti-inflammatory thing that I've ever come across. If you were going to ask me the question, what is the number one thing to repair the gut barrier? My answer would be butyrate, and that's one of the short-chain fatty acids that we get from fiber.

    3. RC

      I, I, I literally wrote down this quote that I found really powerful in your book. "Short-chain fatty acids, especially butyrates, are the most anti-inflammatory thing I have ever come across in my career." That's a powerful statement.

    4. WB

      That's 100% true. And I, and I don't-- I, I, I would challenge anyone to try to prove me otherwise because this, this to me is the most anti-inflammatory thing. It's repairing the gut barrier, but not to mention, it's also crossing the gut barrier to influence our immune system that-

    5. RC

      Mm

    6. WB

      ... we've been talking about. It does a number of things to cool off and relax the immune system, but it-- we're not, we're not sacrificing our immune system. We're not suppressing our immune system.

    7. RC

      Mm.

    8. WB

      We're organizing it to make it strong-

    9. RC

      Mm

    10. WB

      ... to make it tactical. Right? So to me, and I'm sure you would share a similar view, I don't really like the idea of boosting the immune system, and I also don't like the idea of making it sound like we should suppress our immune system. I need my immune system to do its job.

    11. RC

      Mm.

    12. WB

      I just want it to do its job the right way. I don't want it to be out of control and picking fights all over the place. So that's what, that's what these short-chain fatty acids allow us to do, and it comes from fiber. And this is an important conversation to me and continues to be. Like, I'm not gonna back off of this probably ever until we fix this fiber deficiency problem that we have in the West, where in the UK, 90% of people, 90% are deficient in fiber.

    13. RC

      Yeah.

    14. WB

      In the US, 95% are deficient in fiber. So the, this essential nutrient that feeds our gut bacteria, makes our gut microbiome healthy, repairs and restores our gut barrier, and optimizes our immune system, the entire conversation we're having today, it's missing for most people.

    15. RC

      Yeah. Th-this is, this is really, really important, isn't it? Just to sort of make sure that we're sort of looking at that through the lens of what you've been talking about so far, Will, it's this, this, th-the-these kind of three things, the gut microbes, the gut lining, and the immune system. We want all three of those things, in inverted commas, functioning well, right, or [chuckles] being as optimal as they can. And you're basically saying that one of the many ways you can do that is by increasing the right types of fiber. We can, we can define what the right types are in just a moment. But that fiber is going to interact with the gut microbes, so it's gonna have an improvement with the gut microbes. The gut microbes are going to make short-chain fatty acids like butyrate, and you're saying that that butyrate is going to repair the gut lining. So if we have a slightly leaky gut, right, the butyrate is directly going to help close it, which in turn is going to mean there are less signals to the immune system, which will cause inflammation. So the, the, the converse is true, that it is kind of in many ways anti-inflammatory. Anything that you would reword, or, or have I got it right in terms of what you-- the, the argument you're trying to make?

    16. WB

      So you got it right, but it also goes beyond repairing the gut barrier to protect the immune system.

    17. RC

      Yeah.

    18. WB

      Yes, we need to protect the immune system. Yes, we need to stop triggering the immune system. Uh, but it also-- there's the direct effect on the immune cells by these short-chain fatty acids that basically help to, for example, increase the, the, the representation of something called T regulatory cells.

    19. RC

      Yeah.

    20. WB

      And these T regulatory cells, they're like the peacekeepers.

    21. RC

      Exactly.

    22. WB

      So if our immune system is the military, w-we, we don't want our military picking fights and not-- I mean, I know it's not the ideal time to be using this analogy, [chuckles] right? But, like, we don't want our military picking fights and starting wars when it's unnecessary.

    23. RC

      [laughs] Yeah.

    24. WB

      Right? [laughs]

    25. RC

      [laughs] Okay. L- yeah, let's just park the, um, the timing of that. But I, I think we understand the point you're trying to make.

    26. WB

      Right.

    27. RC

      Right? We want the immune system to police the correct things-

    28. WB

      Right

    29. RC

      ... a-and, and act appropriately when it's necessary.

    30. WB

      And our immune system is not just in our gut lining. So it may be concentrated in our gut lining because that's where we're interfacing with the outside world. Seventy percent of our immune system gets deployed-

  10. 50:10 – 56:20

    The Way You Cook Your Food Matters!

    1. WB

      Propionate is the metabolic short-chain fatty acid. So you and I were talking about insulin resistance a moment ago. If we want to enhance insulin sensitivity, the opposite of diabetes-

    2. RC

      Mm-hmm

    3. WB

      ... propionate is the one to get the job done for us, right? If we want to enhance satiety through the release of GLP-1, which is popularized, and everyone's hearing about GLP-1s now thanks to the drugs-

    4. RC

      Mm

    5. WB

      ... makes it easier for me to explain what's happening, 'cause it starts in your gut. These are gut hormones, right? And the body naturally produces GLP-1, and that's in response, one of the ways in which we get full is because of fiber-

    6. RC

      Mm

    7. WB

      ... and short-chain fatty acids that stimulate the release of GLP-1. So there's, uh, you know, we, we could go down many different, uh, uh, strands of thought and different systems. I mean, I could get into hormonal as well if we needed to. [laughs]

    8. RC

      Yeah, so, so the first work course is fiber.

    9. WB

      Yeah.

    10. RC

      And there's a couple things I just wanna talk about through the lens of fiber. Okay, so as you say, it's been misunderstood for many years. A lot of us have just thought about it as roughage. It helps you go to the toilet. But of course-

    11. WB

      Yeah

    12. RC

      ... we're seeing that there's so much more to it than just that. What are these different types of fiber? And I'm particularly interested at the moment in resistant starch-

    13. WB

      Yeah

    14. RC

      ... because I heard you recently, it was part of my prep for this conversation, I was listening to you talk, and I think you might even have spoken about bread. If you buy fresh bread and slice it, put it in the freezer-

    15. WB

      Yeah

    16. RC

      ... take it out, and then when you want to eat it, you know, toast it at that point, the h- the whole sort of makeup of that bread has changed, right? And then, then now it has become resistant starch, so is that more fiber? Is that a different type of fiber? But one thing I'm tracking at the moment with my CGM, which I don't wear all the time, but when I do wear it, I'm like, "Ah, I wonder if the same piece of bread will have a different impact on my blood sugars when it comes out of the freezer compared to when it hasn't." Uh-

    17. WB

      I would expect it would

    18. RC

      ... I would expect it to as well.

    19. WB

      Yeah.

    20. RC

      I know we, I think a lot of us have heard that before with rice-

    21. WB

      Yep

    22. RC

      ... that gets cooled down and put in the freezer and then you reheat it.

    23. WB

      Right.

    24. RC

      Or, or potatoes, right?

    25. WB

      Potatoes, yep.

    26. RC

      But I hadn't really thought about it through the lens of bread.

    27. WB

      Yeah. Any starchy food. So legumes as well. Any, any starchy food, if you heat it up, you're heating up the starch, and then when you cool it down, you develop what's called a retrograde starch, which is that the chemical structure of the starch actually changes, so during that cooling process. And this is part of the reason why I think the, the listeners, and I'm sure you as well, can relate to this, that, like, uh, heated rice doesn't taste the same as cooled rice.

    28. RC

      Mm.

    29. WB

      Right? Uh, warm mashed potatoes don't taste the same as cooled mashed potatoes. There's a consistency difference that's there as well.

    30. RC

      Mm.

  11. 56:20 – 1:02:30

    Why Resistant Starch Is So Important

    1. RC

      after. If, if the, if all of those departments are appropriately looked after, they're gonna do their job for you. But I'm just looking at it now through the lens of, you know, we're thinking about this factory and we've got different workers. Resistant starch is particularly going to maybe feed a particular department that maybe was neglected, right?

    2. WB

      Yeah, totally. Totally.

    3. RC

      It, it wasn't getting it. So the other ones were. They were getting their delivery every day when the lunch came. But actually, resistant starch now allows that neglected part to also be fed. And, and, and the other thing just to say, Will, is that when you are pointing to the left dis- you know, the, the descending part of your colon-

    4. WB

      Yeah, on my side

    5. RC

      ... of, of course, that is one of the areas where when people feel constipated-

    6. WB

      Yeah

    7. RC

      ... they will feel a fullness there or a discomfort there 'cause it's like that final bit that they can't, for whatever reason, eliminate from the body.

    8. WB

      Sure.

    9. RC

      Obviously, you're a gastroenterologist. Do you see resistant starch as having particular benefits for constipation, or is it a bit broader than that and it kinda depends on the cause of that constipation?

    10. WB

      Well, I wouldn't discriminate and say, like, we need this particular form of fiber but not the others.

    11. RC

      Yeah.

    12. WB

      I think that's sometimes the mistake. So let me just, uh, point of clari- of clarity for the listeners. So I'm the founder of a supplement company called 38 Terra, and, uh, our, our first product is called Daily Microbiome Nutrition, and I'm the one who formulated it, and the thought that I'm describing right now went into this formulation, and I just wanna, like, sort of explain what I was thinking about.

    13. RC

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    14. WB

      So, um, I think that the mistake that's often made in, in fiber supplements is the idea of a mono fiber.

    15. RC

      Hmm.

    16. WB

      So you get this one type of fiber, and then you just give more and more and more and more, and what do you think happens? Using your factory analogy, where you have this big, expansive factory, but you're only using one department within that factory.

    17. RC

      Yeah, it's got some balance.

    18. WB

      It gets imbalance. You're overworking those guys, and you're ignoring everyone else.

    19. RC

      Hmm.

    20. WB

      Right? So this brings us back to the concept of diversity. Tim Spector has been on your show a number of times.

    21. RC

      Hmm.

    22. WB

      Tim and I, we, we discussed the same topic of 30 plants a week. The idea with 30 plants a week is that by getting a wide variety of different plant-based foods, you're simultaneously naturally gonna get a wide variety of different types of fibers, including resistant starches. So whether it's a supplement or th- th- through our diet, and even as the founder of a supplement company, I say diet comes first, right? Supplements come second, but if we're gonna formulate supplements, let's, let's make them the right way, which includes a wide variety of different types of fibers and includes the resistant starch that feeds the whole colon.

    23. RC

      Presumably, resistant starch comes from other parts of our diet as well. I, I guess what, what I'm thinking, Will, is through an evolutionary lens, before we had refrigerators-

    24. WB

      Yeah

    25. RC

      ... and freezers, right? Yeah, of course, you know, things could be heated with fire. They could cool down if we were storing them. But does resistant starch come in other forms without us actually refrigerating or freezing the food?

    26. WB

      Yeah, so like the, the resistant starch that's in our 38 Terra product is from a potato, and it's not a retrograde starch. So this is a, this is an RS2 starch, what it means resistant starch 2, which is the kind that's native to a potato, and it has a specific impact on the gut microbiome that's been studied in humans.

    27. RC

      So certain potatoes actually, even if you don't freeze them or refrigerate them, have got high levels of resistant starch?

    28. WB

      100%. You could just eat them like an apple.

    29. RC

      Yeah.

    30. WB

      Right? And it already has the resistant starch. Another example of this is a banana. Think about... So it's... We've all seen it, the green banana that's too stiff, not sweet, not particularly enjoyable to eat, but the green banana is a great source of resistant starch.

  12. 1:02:30 – 1:09:00

    The Benefits Of Eating A Diverse Diet

    1. RC

      online has been a really good thing because it has empowered so many people around the world to take control of their health. They go, "Oh, I didn't realize I could do that. Okay, I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna try and do that." One of the downsides, of course, though, has been that different experts have different perspectives, which then becomes confusing for the listeners, let's say, of this podcast, for example.

    2. WB

      Sure.

    3. RC

      So a few months ago, I had on she- you may know her, she's a brilliant, uh, dietician and microbiome scientist, researcher, Emily Leeming.

    4. WB

      I know Emily.

    5. RC

      Emily's great. Emily wrote this Substack article a couple of years ago, uh, questioning the research upon which that 30 plants a week recommendation is made.

    6. WB

      Yeah.

    7. RC

      And it's not that she's against people eating 30 plants a week. I don't think she has any problem with that. She's simply saying, I think, and I don't wanna misquote Emily, but my, my recollection is that she's saying, listen, for some people, that feels like quite a tall order to get to. And sh- I think the point she's trying to get across is, sure, aim for that, but it's okay to aim for 15 or 20. Like, just wherever you are, try and increase it.

    8. WB

      Totally.

    9. RC

      So could we just clarify that point? Because I don't want anyone thinking, well, hold on a minute. Will is saying eat 30 plants a week. Emily, he had a few months ago, was saying... Y- do you know what I mean? I'm just, just trying to make sure there's a clear message for people.

    10. WB

      Yeah, yeah. So first of all, I know Emily really n- really well.

    11. RC

      Yeah.

    12. WB

      And, um, these are conversations that I've had with her offline.

    13. RC

      Yeah.

    14. WB

      And, and, and not in any sort of adversarial way.

    15. RC

      No, I get it.

    16. WB

      Actually, we're in total agreement.

    17. RC

      Yeah.

    18. WB

      Yeah, yeah. Because, because it's, you know, the... I, I guess here's what I would say, first and foremost, uh, you alluded to this earlier. You've seen tens of thousands of patients. I've seen tens of thousands of patients. I don't know what the number is, but it's really, like, for both of us-

    19. RC

      It's a lot

    20. WB

      ... it's a high number, right? And what, one of the things that you realize, at least for me, and one of the things that I've learned, there's a difference between projecting advice based upon what you think is best versus being in the room-

    21. RC

      Yeah

    22. WB

      ... one-on-one with that person and guiding them.

    23. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    24. WB

      Right? I've learned I have to meet people where they are. So when I say 30, this, first of all, this is not an absolute number, and it's not a magical number.

    25. RC

      Yeah.

    26. WB

      It's-- And we can talk about where that number comes from, and there are scientific flaws that exist, which is what Emily's getting at. There are scientific flaws, but what I would argue, and I think Emily would 100% agree with me, is that the core concept that it's guiding people towards is the right concept, which is that variety within the diet is of benefit to your health, including your gut microbiome.

    27. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    28. WB

      So if you were to take me personally, 15 years ago, I was a mess.

    29. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    30. WB

      Right? I was the guy who needed, uh, nutritional advice. I was the guy who needed a nutritional overhaul, and my health was suffering as a result of that. So for the majority of my life, I ate an unhealthy diet, and it was my own personal transformation that ultimately started to lead me to this place.

  13. 1:09:00 – 1:16:00

    What Ultra-Processed Food Does To Your Gut

    1. WB

      um, and I, I-

    2. RC

      And I really didn't go there because I don't want to go down a rabbit hole, but I know there'll be some people listening who are thinking-

    3. WB

      No, I-

    4. RC

      ... and I don't want them getting confused

    5. WB

      ... I think it's important. I think it's important, and I, and I, and I think there's a, there is a good conversation here about this because also my views on this have evolved through, through the years, which is that I used to be more adamant. And though this is a horrible mistake, what are you doing, right? And yet now here I am, and I would say that for the person who's thriving with that diet, I celebrate that.

    6. RC

      Yeah

    7. WB

      Right? And I don't care whether it's the diet that I recommend or don't recommend. I w- uh, you know, there's a caveat-

    8. RC

      Mm

    9. WB

      ... which is that there are dietary patterns that can make you feel better in the short term, but you, I'm worried, would pay the price in the long term. That's my concern with the carnivore diet.

    10. RC

      Mm.

    11. WB

      It's like a short-term carnivore diet doesn't bother me at all. But people who are thinking that they're gonna commit to this long term, I do worry about that.

    12. RC

      Mm.

    13. WB

      To answer your question, t- we're talking about, again, the three short chain fatty acids that come from fiber: acetate, propionate, and butyrate. All right, now, let's name the two main ketones that the body will produce when it is deprived of carbohydrate and therefore s- flips into this metabolic mode of ketosis. Acetoacetate, it's like acetate, and beta-hydroxybutyrate. It's like butyrate. Okay, they're not exactly the same. If we were to say, you know, how does beta-hydroxybutyrate compare to butyrate? It's like the lesser version of a similar concept. It doesn't achieve the same significant benefit as you get from the full force of the butyrate. But if you want to activate that receptor on some level through beta-hydroxybutyrate, you can do that. But it also doesn't behave within the body exactly the same either.

    14. RC

      Mm.

    15. WB

      So it's not a one-to-one thing. There are certain things that these, that these ketones are doing, but when they do activate a similar receptor to the short chain fatty acids-

    16. RC

      Mm

    17. WB

      ... that come from fiber, the evidence would suggest that it does not activate in the exact same way. It's to a lesser degree.

    18. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    19. WB

      So if you want those benefits, if you want the full throat benefits from the, the, the acetate, the, the butyrate, fiber is the way to go about doing that. Um, you know, to me, a, a ketogenic diet or a low carb diet, when we're talking about the elimination of refined carbohydrates, I 100% celebrate that, right? I don't... I... So to me, like that's an approach that makes a ton of sense to me.

    20. RC

      Mm.

    21. WB

      And a real ketogenic diet isn't actually looking to eliminate fiber.

    22. RC

      No.

    23. WB

      Right?

    24. RC

      Agree.

    25. WB

      So that they actually remove that from the equation. That's not counted towards your carbs.

    26. RC

      Mm.

    27. WB

      So if you were... If your diet was being informed by a true nutrition, nutrition expert, they would ensure that you are reducing your simple carbohydrates, which are the refined carbohydrates, flour and sugar, and simultaneously making sure that you are sufficiently, um, achieving your, your fiber and your resistant starches.

    28. RC

      Mm.

    29. WB

      Did that answer your question?

    30. RC

      Yeah, absolutely. I think, uh, uh, certainly what I get from you is that, listen, we're all in different state of health. It may be that a particular point in your life you are benefiting from going on a particular diet because suddenly your symptoms are getting better. And of course, many people on the carnivore diet will tell you that their autoimmune symptoms and their joint pain and their skin problems have gone, which is one of the reasons they want to stay on it. But the case you're making in your book is that great in the short term, but over time, what if we could help you repair your gut barrier? What if we could help you broaden out your diet and introduce some things in that maybe you couldn't tolerate before, but maybe with a bit of work you can tolerate now? I- is... I- it would... Is that a fair reflection of your take?

  14. 1:16:00 – 1:23:00

    Can You Really Heal Your Gut?

    1. WB

      term and why it can induce remission.

    2. RC

      Yeah.

    3. WB

      All right? It does not redu- when someone says, "I fixed my gut problem by going on a zero carb diet," n- no, you didn't actually fix your gut problem because if I give you food, you'll have symptoms again.

    4. RC

      Mm.

    5. WB

      Right? So the person who says that they fixed their gut problem, that I would actually make an analogy to being much more similar to, "I hurt my knee, and now I'm laying on the couch. And because I'm laying on the couch, my knee doesn't hurt."

    6. RC

      Mm.

    7. WB

      Right? So that's what they really mean. But the problem is that if I want to actually make you strong... So, like, I, um, I, you and I are both tall. I enjoy playing basketball with my son.

    8. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    9. WB

      Right? If I hurt my knee, that's a hard thing to do. I need to rehabilitate the knee.

    10. RC

      Mm.

    11. WB

      I need to restore function to the knee. When I'm truly healed, I'm able to get back on the basketball court and play.

    12. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    13. WB

      And so there's a process that you have to go through in order to accomplish that. So what I worry about with a zero fiber diet, fiber to me is exercise for your gut microbes.

    14. RC

      Mm.

    15. WB

      Right? Everyone agrees that exercise is good for the human body. Not everyone agrees that fiber is good because I think the argument is, "Oh, well, that causes symptoms."

    16. RC

      Yeah.

    17. WB

      But what I'm saying to you is exercise can cause symptoms too when it's too much.

    18. RC

      Mm.

    19. WB

      So when we're rehabilitating a damaged gut, we need to gently introduce the fiber to, to exercise and work that gut muscle, right? Because no one in their right mind would ever argue that the solution to... Like, you know, I, I hear things sometimes people say, "Oh, well, fiber is not essential. It's not required." Yeah, uh, walking is not required either. You don't need to, you don't-

    20. RC

      Mm

    21. WB

      ... need to be able to walk in order to live, but we all agree that it's good for you.

    22. RC

      Yeah.

    23. WB

      We all agree that that's like an essential part of being healthy, and I would make the exact same argument for fiber. Fiber is necessary to support and nurture your gut microbiome, and, um, it's just the way in which we go about this.

    24. RC

      Yeah.

    25. WB

      So I hope that explains that.

    26. RC

      Yeah, I, I think it was, it was really great the way you put those ideas across. And yeah, as you say, fiber may not be an essential nutrient, but if you look at the bulk of the data, it seems to support that it's a pretty helpful one [laughs] for a variety of different things, right? So is it possible that someone might be okay without fiber? Yeah, I think it's possible. I guess what we're trying to do, we're trying to reduce risk.

    27. WB

      Right.

    28. RC

      If you walk regularly, you're gonna reduce your risk of getting sick. Does it mean you're never gonna get sick? No, I can't say that, but your chances are gonna go down, and I guess you're making that same case with fiber. You're just stacking the odds in your favor.

    29. WB

      Stacking the odds in your favor, and also, uh, uh, uh, I ha- I have longitudinal experience-

    30. RC

      For sure

  15. 1:23:00 – 1:30:00

    The Gut-Brain Connection

    1. WB

      in the middle is your intestine, and this leads to the manifestation of Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis, these forms of inflammatory bowel disease. My approach, which is detailed in, in, in, in Plant-Powered Plus, is that number one, I want to get people into remission, and that will often require medicine. I am not... You know, just like you, I am prag- pragmatic.

    2. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    3. WB

      I'm working towards results. I... And there are tools that are on the table, and I don't come at things from some sort of, you know, uh, dogmatic view of you can only do diet. You're not allowed to do medicine. That's not how I see it. So we need to get people into remission, and many times medication is necessary in order to do that. But when they're in remission, now we have the opportunity for healing. You can't heal a forest when the forest is on fire.

    4. RC

      Yeah.

    5. WB

      You have to put the fire out, right? And then when the fire finally goes out, which is typically medication putting that fire out, you start to rebuild the forest. You start to plant the trees. You bring the life back.

    6. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    7. WB

      And that takes time, right? The damage that's done real fast does take time to actually heal from. So what we do is we start to incorporate these principles that we're discussing, including the four workhorses and including anything else that we're gonna discuss, circadian rhythm and sleep and time-restricted eating and human connection and spiritual connection and, uh, meditation and relaxation. Basically, the four pillars that you talked about in your first book.

    8. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    9. WB

      You incorporate those elements. Each of them impacts the gut microbiome.

    10. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    11. WB

      And because the gut microbiome is being impacted by all of these things that you're doing at the same time, you start to actually rebuild that forest.

    12. RC

      Yeah.

    13. WB

      And it may take time.

    14. RC

      Yeah. It's a very hopeful and empowering message. Yeah, sometimes drugs are needed. It is also amazing how sometimes actually I've certainly seen with some cases you can do a lot with lifestyle, right?

    15. WB

      Totally.

    16. RC

      And you know, you, you really can, and it's clearly not something we were conventionally taught, but it's stuff I figured out through the course of my career that, hey, maybe there's a- another way here. As you, as you say, you do tease hell out in the book.

    17. WB

      Yep.

    18. RC

      Well, you know, we could go in a million different directions, and we- there's no way we're getting through everything on this podcast, so you, you have an open invitation to come back on to talk about other stuff. Um, I do wanna get to chapter eight because I-- it was my favorite chapter because it's very much where my interest lies more and more these days, and has done for many years. Before we get to that, can you just, because we mentioned these four workhorses, we've only covered fiber.

    19. WB

      Yeah. [laughs]

    20. RC

      Can you just top line two, three, and four?

    21. WB

      Totally.

    22. RC

      Let's not go into detail, 'cause I think some of them we have covered before on the show.

    23. WB

      Yeah.

    24. RC

      Top line, what is two, three, and four-

    25. WB

      Yeah

    26. RC

      ... and why they're beneficial?

    27. WB

      All right, so number two are the polyphenols. Polyphenols are the colors of our food. You step into any supermarket literally across the globe, guess what they're putting right in front of you right at the door? The, the fresh produce.

    28. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    29. WB

      And the purples and the reds and the yellows and the oranges, every single one of those is powered by some sort of phytochemical, plant-based chemical, called a polyphenol.

    30. RC

      Mm-hmm.

  16. 1:30:00 – 1:37:00

    How Your Emotions Affect Your Gut

    1. RC

      Yeah.

    2. WB

      [laughs]

    3. RC

      I, I agree with that. Uh, it's like focus on the stuff that we know is helpful and, and we've known for years-

    4. WB

      Right

    5. RC

      ... it's helpful. Uh, category number four, the fourth workhorse is fermented foods.

    6. WB

      Fermented foods, yeah.

    7. RC

      Uh, anything top line you wanna say on fermented foods?

    8. WB

      Well, real quick, I mean, you know, the good news is that this is becoming more and more part of the public conscious, uh, when it comes to nutrition.

    9. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    10. WB

      It wasn't when I wrote Fiber Fueled.

    11. RC

      Yeah.

    12. WB

      Right? So I have been, I've been pounding this drum since the beginning. Um, I think because I come ... I see signals within the gut microbiome that take time to show up in other places.

    13. RC

      Yeah.

    14. WB

      Have you had Christopher Gardner on the show?

    15. RC

      No, but I know Christopher's work super well.

    16. WB

      Like, he and the Sonnenbergs at Stanford did a great study. It was 36 people. All right? 18 people who did fermented food, 18 people who did a high-fiber diet. Let's talk about the fermented food, 'cause that's why I wanted to lead into, which is that they added a significant amount of fermented food to their diet because they were trying to really see what the impact is.

    17. RC

      Hmm.

    18. WB

      So they were doing five or six servings per day. That's a lot. But still what they showed is that during the course of eight weeks, they increased the diversity of their gut microbiome, and they simultaneously reduced the markers of inflammation-

    19. RC

      Yeah

    20. WB

      ... uh, like across a wide panel. Okay, so there's two key takeaways from, from what I just said. Number one, here's what's exciting. We have an interventional human study showing that through your diet you can increase gut diversity and reduce inflammation in a short period of time.

    21. RC

      Hmm.

    22. WB

      Here's the second thing that I love about this study. It proves everything that you and I have been discussing for the last however many, you know, hour and a half or two hours. It just that, that, that, that study actually supports 100% the backbone of science that went into my new book.

    23. RC

      Mm.

    24. WB

      Because what we're showing here is through diet, you can manipulate the microbiome, and when the microbiome gets healthier, guess what we see in the immune system? Exactly as expected, the immune system is showing anti-inflammatory effect.

    25. RC

      Chapter eight is called Body and Mind Healing: Nourishing the Soul Through Connection. And, um, I wonder if I could start by reading to you your words from the start of that chapter, which I found really, really powerful. "Throughout my career, I've had dozens of patients whom even my best medicine failed. I had the perfect plan, the right drugs, the nutrition, sleep, exercise, and other lifestyle factors locked in. Over the course of multiple visits, we progressed in our plan, but it just wasn't working. For some patients, it can feel like they've hit a dead end, and it's time to find a new doctor. But often, we've just hit the line that exists between the body and the mind. We've reached the furthest limit of what we can do to heal the physical body, and now we must step into the realm of the non-conscious mind and the core self. Unfortunately, most doctors are not trained to do this." I love it. I absolutely love those words. They're so beautiful, and for me, they are so bang on. Why do we make the choices we make? You mentioned about diet today, right? Again, later on in the chapter, you talk about yourself. You, you say this, right? "Yes, I needed to improve my diet, but there was an emotional element to the way I ate. Junk food was a form of therapy for a soul that was hurting deep down inside."

    26. WB

      That's right. There I was, and I was the one who was sick. And when I wrote Fiber Fueled in 2020-- By the way, I have goosebumps, and I don't know if you can see that on-

    27. RC

      Yeah

    28. WB

      ... the camera.

    29. RC

      Oh my God, I can.

    30. WB

      But, you know, uh-

  17. 1:37:00 – 1:44:00

    Will’s Own Healing Journey

    1. WB

      ultimately acknowledge that, not ignore that, stop pushing it to the side, stop trying to power through, stop trying to prove my self-worth to everyone else because I feel the absence of love from my dad. And, um, it's when I finally turned to him through the help of my wife, who is-- has been such a wonderful influence in my life. You know, I met her, and she told me I needed to re-repair my relationship with my dad, and I hadn't talked to him for more than 10 years. And one day, I picked up the phone, and I called him, and he was completely shocked. But you're a dad, and I'm a dad. And becoming a father was one of... I mean, not even one. It was the most important moment of my life because it changed everything. And the, the love that I have for my children, it helped me to understand my dad. And when I called him, he did exactly what I would have done. He welcomed me back immediately-

    2. RC

      Yeah

    3. WB

      ... because he loves me. I just rejected that love. And so I had my own health challenges that I struggled with and, and the body, you know, was an outward manifestation of that, or the weight of-- or my behavior was an outward manifestation of that. But really, in order to be of mind and be the best version of myself, I had to fix what was inside.

    4. RC

      Yeah. First of all, thank you for sharing that. Um, I know from reading that your dad is no longer with us. And my dad died in 2013, and, um, there's many things that I would like to say to him if he was here. But he, but he's not here. But just because someone is no longer here in the physical realm doesn't mean you can't have a conversation with them. You know, I, you know, I sometimes, uh, will say things or sort of think about things and say, "Oh, I wonder what Dad would say here." But I think what's really interesting about this part of the story for me is that these significant life experiences, they directly impact our body and our physiology, but they also have an impact on our behaviors, right? So sometimes people say, "You know, I, I keep trying to change my diet. You know, I tried. I did it for two months. I did it for three months, but then I flipped back. I, I ended up where I was before." I, I, I've seen that so many times over the years. And to me, it's often because, yeah, because there's another, uh, component to this that you haven't addressed yet. There's a reason. There's some sort of deep trauma maybe, or, uh, emotional baggage that you haven't processed that means you- you're gonna keep going to the sugar. You're gonna keep going to that, because actually that's the way that you're dealing with the pain that you're not willing or unable to confront.

    5. WB

      Yeah. Yeah.

    6. RC

      And again, it's like you say in that section, most doctors are not trained to do this. No, we're not trained to do this. But I can tell you, in my view, the best clinicians are the ones who figure this out as they progress through their career.

    7. WB

      Because you realize there's something bigger [laughs] .

    8. RC

      Exactly.

    9. WB

      But also what you said about being able to still connect with your dad, that requires you to believe that we're part of something bigger.

    10. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    11. WB

      And that's a part of the conversation too. So I would love to get into the machinations of all this, right? The physiology that, like, there was a time, and you remember it too, where we completely and totally dismissed the idea of body-mind healing, right? Like, there was a time, and you, you, you came to this with your books before I did, but I was in the clinic too, dealing with patients and seeing this myself. And I think that the, the point is, like, we can get into the physiology and all those things, but it doesn't really change that this is really-

    12. RC

      Yeah

    13. WB

      ... a story about h- being a human, what it means to be a person, what we truly need in our lives to feel loved, to feel safe, um, and also to live with purpose. And so again, I come back to it's just kind of interesting how, you know, you and I, we're writing the same story.

    14. RC

      Yeah.

    15. WB

      It's just a little bit of a different version of the same thing.

    16. RC

      Yeah. It's funny. Today, Will, we were talking so much about the gut and the gut microbiome, the immune system, and the sort of things that we can do, and what are the four workhorses of an anti-inflammatory diet. And of course, these things are all super important because sometimes the truth is you can start with food, right? You're not ready to deal with that stuff yet. You make some changes to your lifestyle. It, it builds a certain resilience in you. You have more energy, more vitality, which sometimes then allows you to go into those deep areas, right? But for some people, it won't start with that. It will start with emotional healing first, which then will naturally change their lifestyle. And I always remember, um, I think I shared this story once on the podcast before. I always remember a patient of mine who... You know, it's a period of time where as well as NHS general practice, I would also see patients separately for an hour, an hour and a half, complex patients who couldn't get better, um, with the con- sort of conventional approach, who wanted a more broader approach. And I really enjoy that because these were usually patients who'd been everywhere and were still stuck, and I relished the challenge of trying to figure out what is going on here. What... You know, that's not denigrating any other doctor. Just that, but what are we missing here? Why is this patient still sick? And there was this young lady who had awful irritable bowel syndrome symptoms, okay? Just really bad. It was affecting her life. And one of the things I like to do is really understand their entire story. "Okay, tell me about your childhood. What happened?" You know? "When did these symptoms first come on?" All that sort of stuff. And I don't think she'd ever really had the space for that kind of conversation before. And I understand for doctors, it's very hard if you're in a 10-minute consultation to even go, to go there.

    17. WB

      Oh, 100%.

    18. RC

      So I totally get that.

    19. WB

      Yeah.

    20. RC

      But she said something to me which I never forgot, which was, "I had a really happy childhood growing up in, in Iraq and, um, you know, Mom and Dad were happy. I'd play with my siblings, and then the war started, and suddenly out

  18. 1:44:00 – 1:51:00

    How To Support Your Gut Health

    1. RC

      of nowhere, we're getting bombed." And my dad changed overnight because he was suddenly petrified about looking after us. And sometimes in the middle of the night, he would literally wake us up and we'd go to a bomb shelter. And then when you start to map her symptoms, that's when her symptoms started, right? And she said, "My dad's never been the same since then. His whole, uh, personality changed." Understandably, if, if I was a dad and suddenly my kids' lives were under threat and my family, I would probably change.

    2. WB

      Totally.

    3. RC

      Right? But to think that that isn't [laughs] a massive cause of your symptoms, yeah, we can dance around with changing your diet and doing stuff. A- and yeah, and, and I would absolutely help with that. But I had an honest conversation with her and I said, "I think the root cause is coming from this, and I think unless you address this at some point, as hard as it is, I think we're only gonna get so far." What's your take on that as a gastroenterologist?

    4. WB

      So fascinating because I feel the exact same way, and I said earlier in the show when we talked about diet, I said, for most people, this is the most powerful lever.

    5. RC

      Yeah.

    6. WB

      But for some, there's something else. And here we are. We've come full circle on that concept because for some people, inner healing is what they need so terribly that it doesn't matter. Diet is not going to fix the problem. It doesn't matter what you eat, because you have to heal the wound that's deep down inside. She was suffering with irritable bowel syndrome. Irritable bowel syndrome is not something that you can diagnose on a blood test or a CAT scan. It's a pattern, and we have a definition for how yourself or I come to that diagnosis, and that definition was created by my mentor, Dr. Douglas Drossman.

    7. RC

      Really?

    8. WB

      And-

    9. RC

      Wow.

    10. WB

      Yep. And Douglas Drossman, he was at the University of North Carolina, so he's, he's older now. He's retired. Um, but he was there when I was there, and he's the one who created the Rome Foundation. And the Rome Foundation just released, uh, a few weeks ago, their fifth version-

    11. RC

      Wow

    12. WB

      ... of their criteria for not just irritable bowel syndrome-

    13. RC

      Mm

    14. WB

      ... but for many other digestive health conditions. Okay, he's the founder. He's the name on the book. They've been doing this since the 1980s.

    15. RC

      Mm.

    16. WB

      Prior to that, where we were is that doctors would see a pattern of people with pain and either diarrhea or constipation. They wouldn't know what to call it.

    17. RC

      Mm.

    18. WB

      Oh, they got pain and diarrhea. No, no, that's irritable bowel syndrome with diarrhea.

    19. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    20. WB

      Right? So what you're describing was invented by or, like, basically created as a diagnosis-

    21. RC

      Wow

    22. WB

      ... by my mentor, and let me tell you about how we used to do things in his clinic. It was the most bizarre thing, and it's sad, Rangan, the hospital administration ran him out because he wasn't making money.

    23. RC

      [sighs]

    24. WB

      Okay? But here's what we-- Here's what happened. We would have in a four-hour block, two patients.

    25. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    26. WB

      Now, let me tell you, I have had periods of time in my career where I've taken care of over 20 patients-

    27. RC

      Yeah

    28. WB

      ... in that same amount of time. We would have two patients. We would go into the room. We would come out. We'd go into the room. We would come out, and then we would go back into the room the third time. And by the time we got to the third time, that's like a third visit. You would get to a point where you trusted each other and you were ready, 'cause there was a bond now. This is the doctor-patient relationship.

    29. RC

      Yeah.

    30. WB

      This is what doctors are starving for, and the system will not allow us-

  19. 1:51:00 – 1:55:50

    Will’s Final Advice

    1. RC

      need to address at the moment. I think everything about your work a- and one of the reasons people are drawn to you so much is because you have a very good grasp of the latest science, but you've also got this, um, this deep humanity that I think has come from your clinical experience from seeing sick people, but also from understanding the parts of you that you weren't addressing in yourself. And I, I wanna acknowledge you for that. I think it's, it's really needed. People think these days it's just about information. "Yeah, just, just give people more information, you know? If I know the right diet to follow, that's what I need to do." Sure. Uh, but, but that is only one part of it. That's kind of what I call external information. Great. Very useful. But you also need a bit of internal [laughs] information, right? What's going on in the inside? Why do I keep making these choices that I know are not helping me? There is a reason for that. And for, for many people it ain't willpower.

    2. WB

      Right.

    3. RC

      It's, there's something else driving it.

    4. WB

      Yeah. Well, I... And I think to be, to put myself into a position where I'm able to write about these things, I could not do this if I didn't have-- if I, if I felt isolated. I could not do this if I felt deeply sad. I could not do this if I didn't have the love and support of my family. I could not do this if I didn't believe that there was something bigger out there, right? So to me, this, this chapter becomes a conversation, yes, about the brain and influence on the gut and how that influences our immune system and inflammation. Yes, that is like the, the physiology, but really this is a conversation about emotional healing and having a purpose, and spiritual healing too, and acknowledging the importance of that. And stop, stop pretending that these things aren't important and aren't real. They are real, and that's part of health too.

    5. RC

      Yeah. Will, there, there's so many other things we could talk about. I think there is certainly enough for a part two at some point in the future. The new book, which I think is a, a really wonderful read, is called Plant Powered Plus: Activate the Power of Your Gut to Tame Inflammation and Reclaim Your Health. One of the things I really appreciate about it is the nuance, is the patient stories, but also how you're very inclusive. You may have a particular, uh, preference for the way people eat, let's say, but I think you're also very, uh, understanding of people who choose to eat differently to that. And, and, and I really liked that because that's how you bring people together in a world which seems on- online at least, more and more divided. I don't think most of it is necessary. It's like there are some common principles that people agree on, that you agree on, and, and I very much appreciate that about your book. But Will, my final question to you today is, if, um, if someone's been listening to us and they've realized throughout this conversation that they've not been prioritizing their health enough, or perhaps relevant to what we've just been talking about, that they have overlooked a certain important part of their internal landscape, what would your final words to them be?

    6. WB

      Let's imagine that we're in a, a private space in a clinic. I'm talking to this person one-on-one. What would I say to that person, right? That's my patient. What I would say to them is whether it's your diet and the things that you've been avoiding, whether it's the sugar that's been causing the trouble, whether it's that there's something from your past that's continuing to haunt you and make you feel unsafe. In all of these cases, the solution is not to avoid it. The solution is not to ignore it. The solution is to see it, call it out, that's the problem, and then turn to it, and let's create a plan to get past it. And that's how you win.

    7. RC

      I love it. Will, you're a wonderful doctor. You're a wonderful human being. Thanks so much for coming on the show.

    8. WB

      Thank you for having me.

    9. RC

      If you enjoyed that conversation, then I think you are really going to enjoy this one that I've picked out especially.

    10. SP

      We need to realize whatever we put into our body is either going to take our health down or build our health back up, and it all works at the level of the defense systems

Episode duration: 1:55:50

Install uListen for AI-powered chat & search across the full episode — Get Full Transcript

Transcript of episode 4I8e6ax-AYM

Get more out of YouTube videos.

High quality summaries for YouTube videos. Accurate transcripts to search & find moments. Powered by ChatGPT & Claude AI.

iOSAndroidClaudeChrome