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Dr Rangan ChatterjeeDr Rangan Chatterjee

You’re NOT Sick—You’re Suppressed: The Real Reason You’re Exhausted & In Pain | Gabor Maté

Order MAKE CHANGE THAT LASTS. US & Canada version https://amzn.to/3RyO3SL, UK version https://amzn.to/3Kt5rUK Gabor Maté is respected the world over as an expert on trauma, stress, addiction and childhood development. He is a physician, speaker and international bestselling author of some truly game-changing books such as When the Body Says No and The Myth of Normal. WATCH THE FULL CONVERSATION: "We Learn It Too Late" - 5 Regrets Trapping People From A Life Of Purpose & Meaning | Gabor Maté https://youtu.be/QMdkgpCvZws ----- Follow Dr Chatterjee at: Website: https://drchatterjee.com/ Facebook: / drchatterjee Twitter: / drchatterjeeuk Instagram: / drchatterjee Newsletter: https://drchatterjee.com/subscription DISCLAIMER: The content in the podcast and on this webpage is not intended to constitute or be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on the podcast or on my website.

Dr. Rangan ChatterjeehostGabor Matéguest
May 18, 202517mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 0:32

    Why modern “me-focused” culture fuels overwork and self-worth chasing

    1. RC

      In this me-focused culture where it's all me, me, me, and what are my needs, and what do I need to do, and how can I better myself, I feel that we often don't feel of value to others. We don't feel important. And so it makes sense that in that culture you might overwork.

    2. GM

      Mm.

    3. RC

      You might keep pushing yourself because if you're not working and feeling important there, then actually you may not have that sensation in any other aspects of your life.

  2. 0:32 – 1:40

    Early childhood validation vs. lifelong proving your value

    1. GM

      Well, if, well, if you weren't given the, um... It's very simple. If in early childhood you're given the sense that you're valued just 'cause you existed, your parents welcome you, and validate you, and value you, and, and celebrate you just 'cause you are, then you don't have to keep proving it afterwards.

    2. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    3. GM

      But if you don't get that sense, then you have to be important.

    4. RC

      Yeah.

    5. GM

      So that sense of needing to be important has to come from missing out on being valued for who you are or being only valued for your achievements. You know, you're valued-

    6. RC

      Mm.

    7. GM

      Like, look, my parents, bless their souls, but they valued my intelligence, you know? And so a lot of my persona was caught up in being smart and, and proving my value that way. Well, it's good to be intelligent, but your value should... doesn't depend on-

    8. RC

      Mm

    9. GM

      ... or shouldn't depend on any one quality, whether you're cute or cuddly or handsome or-

    10. RC

      Mm

    11. GM

      ... successful or good at sports or smart in school, any of that, is you- your value is intrinsic-

    12. RC

      Mm

  3. 1:40 – 2:38

    When “my patients need me” is really about ego and identity

    1. GM

      ... or g- innate, inherent 'cause you're a human being. In this society, as you say, it tends to value people for what they do, and so that can become very, very addictive. But again, going back to your friend who says, "My parent, my f- my patients need me," and you think about it, and I'm not accusing them of anything, but they're not realizing just how egotistical that statement is. It's as if it depended on them.

    2. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    3. GM

      Their patients need good medical care, but they don't need him or her-

    4. RC

      Mm

    5. GM

      ... or them specifically, which means that they should be able to take care of themselves as long as they make sure that when they're not there-

    6. RC

      Mm-hmm

    7. GM

      ... their patients are receiving-

    8. RC

      Mm

    9. GM

      ... the care that they need. So it's not about us, and I used to think it was always about me.

    10. RC

      Mm.

    11. GM

      If I'm not there for the delivery of this pregnant woman's baby, oh, my God.

    12. RC

      Mm.

    13. GM

      You know? Like as if it all depended on me. It, it-

  4. 2:38 – 2:56

    Control, inability to let go, and accepting imperfection

    1. RC

      There's probably a control issue there as well, isn't there? That I, I know how I would do it-

    2. GM

      Ex- exactly

    3. RC

      ... so I need to be there 'cause I know how I would manage this birth-

    4. GM

      Exactly

    5. RC

      ... and that sort of stuff-

    6. GM

      Yeah

    7. RC

      ... which is an inability to let go.

    8. GM

      Exactly.

    9. RC

      Like, someone else can probably do this as well.

    10. GM

      Yeah. Or if they can't do it as well, so be it, you know?

    11. RC

      So be it. [laughs]

    12. GM

      You know?

  5. 2:56 – 5:36

    “Impressive”: living in other people’s minds vs. living in yourself

    1. RC

      Yeah. As I was walking to the studio this morning thinking about our conversation, the word impressive kept coming up for me.

    2. GM

      Mm.

    3. RC

      And I've been reflecting on the word impressive because, again, I think culturally we, we think it's a good thing to impress others.

    4. GM

      Mm-hmm.

    5. RC

      Like, hey, that bit of work you did is impressive.

    6. GM

      Mm-hmm.

    7. RC

      But actually, if you, if you really unpick impressive, or certainly if I do it, it implies to me, and maybe this is my own bias because this is what I have done for much of my life-

    8. GM

      Yeah

    9. RC

      ... I've changed who I am in order to impress others.

    10. GM

      Yeah.

    11. RC

      I didn't feel I impressed others by being myself.

    12. GM

      Yeah.

    13. RC

      I impressed them by changing.

    14. GM

      Yeah.

    15. RC

      So what comes up for you when you hear the word impressive? Have we got it wrong? Has it been, you know, has it been taken to mean something it's not? Like, how, how do you see the word impressive?

    16. GM

      Hmm. Well, um, impressive first of all has to do with what? It has to do with our impact on other people, how others see us. So if I can just be myself and express my own truth and not drive myself into activities that are not good for me and people are impressed, well, that's great. But if my intention is to impress other people, if I need for me to make a certain impression in somebody else's mind, then where am I living? Then I'm living in their minds rather than in myself. So the question is, where do I wanna live, here or in your mind, you know? And, uh, our society is so, um, addicted to people being impressive in the minds of others. That means that we live in the minds of others more than we live-

    17. RC

      Mm

    18. GM

      ... in ourselves. So if I c- if you can be yourself and find that impre- if I find that impressive, that's great, but you're not doing it to impress me.

    19. RC

      No.

    20. GM

      You're just doing it 'cause that's, you're expressing who you are. If I'm impressed, great. If I'm not impressed, that doesn't take anything away from you. But to the degree that we're dependent on impressing others, we're robbing ourselves. So that's how I see that word.

  6. 5:36 – 6:04

    The regret of not expressing feelings—and why it’s not about “courage”

    1. RC

      The third regret that Bronnie writes about was, "I wish I had the courage to express my feelings."

    2. GM

      My emotions, yeah.

    3. RC

      Which is, I guess, not dissimilar to the first one about living a life that's true to yourself.

    4. GM

      No. And it, again, it, again, it's the word courage that shows up.

    5. RC

      Mm.

    6. GM

      And these people are judging themselves. A more interesting way to put it is, why is it that I didn't express my feelings, you know?

    7. RC

      Mm-hmm.

  7. 6:04 – 8:30

    Emotions as hardwired biology: Jaak Panksepp and core affective systems

    1. GM

      Now, here's the thing. Um-Again, in my writing, uh, in The Myth of Normal, I quote this great neuroscientist who died in his mid-70s of cancer a few years ago. Those of us who knew him still mourn him. His name was Dr. Jaak Panksepp, P-A-N-K-S-E-P-P. He was, uh, from the Baltic states, whether he was Estonian, I think he was, but maybe L- L- Latvian, you know. And he was an effective neuroscientist, so he studied the neurobiology of emotions and wrote a book called The Archeology of the Mind. It's among the seminal books-

    2. RC

      Mm

    3. GM

      ... of modern science. And he pointed out that we share certain emotional circuits with other animals. So we have circuit... And he capitalized these circuits, these systems. So y- he, he-

    4. RC

      Mm

    5. GM

      ... the C-A-R-E, the care system.

    6. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    7. GM

      And there was a system for anger, system for fear, for lust, for playfulness, for joy, in other words, for seeking, which is curiosity-

    8. RC

      Mm

    9. GM

      ... um, grief, and we share these brain circuits with other mammals. In other words, these emotions are not luxuries. They are emotionally, I should say, they are evolutionarily determined aspects of who we are. So if you take the care system, it's essential because without care, the mammalian infant doesn't survive.

    10. RC

      Mm.

    11. GM

      There's gotta be something in the parent's brain that drives that parent to take care of the infant-

    12. RC

      Mm

    13. GM

      ... and something that's in the infant's brain that impels them to connect with the parent in order to be taken care of. That's just evolutionary biology. So we have all these emotional systems. Anger is one of them, um, as I mentioned, fear, grief are others. And children, one of the emotional needs of children, when I studied and invest- you know, and interviewed experts on child development, uh, one of the things I learned and write about is that one of the needs of children for healthy brain development is the freedom to experience and express all the emotions that come up for them.

    14. RC

      Mm.

  8. 8:30 – 10:21

    How kids learn to suppress emotions to stay accepted—and the health cost

    1. GM

      That's just necessary for health. Um, now, what happens in this society where a lot of parents get the message that certain emotions on the part of their kids are not acceptable. So, you know, a kid might experience a loss, like a dog might die or grandpa might die, and the child is upset, and the parent can't handle the child's grief. "So snap out of it, it's just a dog," or, or, "Yeah, get over it, people die," you know. Um, or a child experiences anger-

    2. RC

      Mm

    3. GM

      ... uh, 'cause you didn't give them a cookie before dinner, you know, and a two-year-old throws a tantrum, and you can't handle it. Um, I think you and I have talked about this before.

    4. RC

      Yeah.

    5. GM

      Then the child gets the message that in order to be acceptable to the parent, they have to suppress their emotions. So when these people talk about that, and that suppression of emotion, as I've often made the case with you and in my books, actually undermine health and, and, and our physiology and our immune system. So when these people, in their dying weeks, regret not having had the courage to express their emotions, what they're really talking about is that a long time before, when they were children, they were forced to suppress their emotions for the sake of being accepted.

    6. RC

      Yeah.

    7. GM

      And now they regret it 'cause they, they sense that they were forced to abandon themselves.

    8. RC

      Yeah.

    9. GM

      And so again, I would remove the word courage and ask, instead of judging them for lacking courage, I would say, "What happened to them?" Because again, no infant ha- lacks the capacity to express their emotions.

    10. RC

      Yeah.

    11. GM

      So if they lose it, it's 'cause they learned that they had to.

  9. 10:21 – 11:38

    Practical parenting: responding to tantrums without shaming the emotion

    1. RC

      In terms of something practical around this point, Gabor, if, if there's any parents listening, and their kids, let's say, sometimes get angry or have a tantrum-

    2. GM

      Yeah

    3. RC

      ... whatever it might be.

    4. GM

      Yeah.

    5. RC

      Of course, there is a, a certain conditioning in our modern, certainly in Western society, about what one should do about that.

    6. GM

      Yeah.

    7. RC

      Given your view in terms of what is important for a child-

    8. GM

      Yeah

    9. RC

      ... and what you've just said, what would you encourage a parent to do when their child is, I was gonna use the word playing up, but that, that's a ridiculous term because playing up is a societal construct.

    10. GM

      Yeah.

    11. RC

      The child is just expressing emotions, and we're calling it playing up because we don't like, you know, what it's doing or-

    12. GM

      Right

    13. RC

      ... what the people next door are thinking or whatever it might be, right?

    14. GM

      The North American term is acting out.

    15. RC

      Acting out.

    16. GM

      Yeah. Do they use that phrase here? Uh, yeah.

    17. RC

      Yeah, they do. They, they use this phrase here.

    18. GM

      Yeah. Yeah.

    19. RC

      So, so going back to that, um, the parent who may be struggling but wants to be a better parent, wants to go, "Actually, you know what, Gabor? I really want to make sure that I allow my child to express their emotions."

    20. GM

      Yeah.

    21. RC

      "Do you have any advice for me?"

    22. GM

      Well, I do.

    23. RC

      What would you say to them?

  10. 11:38 – 13:18

    Three parenting styles: permissive, authoritarian, and the “authoritative” middle

    1. GM

      No, I do. Well, so, you know, there's, um, we can talk about three modes of parenting. One is the permissive parenting, where you allow any behavior and you don't intervene or, you know. That's not... That's the worst thing you can do. Kids need to-

    2. RC

      But that is allowing them to express themselves.

    3. GM

      Yeah, but-

    4. RC

      I think

    5. GM

      ... uh, uh, there's a difference. Uh-

    6. RC

      Okay

    7. GM

      ... they might express themselves by hitting their sibling, for example, and you don't allow that. Parents need to f- kids need to feel that somebody's in charge.

    8. RC

      Yeah.

    9. GM

      Parenting is not a democracy. It's a hierarchy. Um, in a hierarchy, there's a dominant-Force. The parent dominates the child not to exploit or to suppress, but to nurture and to support, you know? So that, you know, y- you live in Manchester, and I don't know how cold it gets in Manchester, but if you have a one-year-old child, they don't get to vote on whether they get to crawl outside in the wintertime in Manchester, you know, naked, you know? The parent says, "No, you don't go outside naked, you know? You have got to put clothes on." That's just how it is. It's a hierarchy. It's not a democracy. The one-year-old doesn't get a vote-

    10. RC

      Okay

    11. GM

      ... on g- being going into the, into the slush and the snow in the middle of December or whenever. Um, so that's permissive parenting. That's not very good. Uh, then there's repressive parenting, which some experts that we've talked about advocate. That's authoritarian parenting. In between them is the golden mean. So there's permissive parenting here, authoritarian parenting here, then there's authoritative parenting in the middle. Authoritative parenting is, "I'm in charge. I know what's good for you.

  11. 13:18 – 13:48

    Validate feelings, set limits: holding the child through big emotions

    1. GM

      Um, I'm the authority, um, so I know what to do with you." So if a child is upset, you say, "Oh, you're upset. You know, you're angry with Mommy. Mommy won't let you have a cookie before dinner. Yeah. You're really upset about that. Yeah. Well, come here. I know how you feel." In other words, you validate the emotion, you don't punish the child for it, and you hold the child, 'cause the child needs to learn that they can go through these difficult emotions and get through them.

    2. RC

      And still be loved.

  12. 13:48 – 15:00

    Age-appropriate emotional expression and building lifelong resilience

    1. GM

      And still be loved, yeah. Now, that doesn't mean you let them pull the cat's tail or to break the, break the glass, you know, or, uh, smash the furniture or hit their sibling, but it does mean you validate the emotions and you hold them. And then they learn, "Ah." And, and actually, and when they... And it's also age-specific.

    2. RC

      Mm.

    3. GM

      Like, y- there's no point saying to an angry one-and-a-half-year-old, "Let's find... Let's express it through words." They don't have the words.

    4. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    5. GM

      But to a five-year-old you can say, "Can we find some words for your anger?" In other words, you can teach them to express their emotions in ways that are, um, socially appropriate.

    6. RC

      Yeah.

    7. GM

      So at any age, you have to be age-appropriate, but fundamentally, you validate the emotions, and you hold the child, and you make them feel that you can have these emotions. I don't want you behaving that way, but you can have the emotion, and I'm not gonna reject you for it. It's not that hard, and-

    8. RC

      No

    9. GM

      ... people do it un- intuitively sometimes.

    10. RC

      Yeah. And the impact of parenting like that will be felt for the rest of that child's life.

    11. GM

      Well, absolutely.

  13. 15:00 – 17:16

    Societal roots: parental leave, early separation, and downstream health consequences

    1. RC

      And that's the key, isn't it? You look at, look around society. It's very, very hard to not make the case that we have to set up society so that those early years are where the kids get good nutrition, they have calm environments, they have present parents. You know, I'm always shocked at the amount of leave that, um, people in America-

    2. GM

      Mm

    3. RC

      ... get or mothers get in jobs in America. I think one of my friend's partners in America got two weeks off.

    4. GM

      Oh.

    5. RC

      Which, which I, I, I thought, what? Two weeks off after giving birth.

    6. GM

      Well, when I researched The Myth of Normal, I found that 25% of women in the States go back to work within two weeks of giving birth, which 25% of women. Now, needless to say, this is both economically and racially determined, but it means that it's a massive abandonment of the child-

    7. RC

      Yeah

    8. GM

      ... 'cause as from the point of view of the development of enzymes in the child, the child's physiological unfoldment, psychological security, they need the mother for many, many, many, many months. And you try and take an infant away from a, an orangutan at two weeks and see what happens.

    9. RC

      Yeah.

    10. GM

      You know? And, uh, in fact, they've done some very cruel studies with monkeys that shows the impact of maternal deprivation at those early ages. You know, studies that are terrible to read about.

    11. RC

      Yeah.

    12. GM

      And they prove what? They prove that love and contact and connection is important, something we should've known all along.

    13. RC

      Yeah.

    14. GM

      But the point is that the statistic that 25% of women have to go back to work within two weeks of work, within two weeks of giving birth, it's a massive abandonment of children, the s- the impact of which will show up in their mental and physical health decades on.

    15. RC

      Yeah.

    16. GM

      And then they wonder why there's so many problems. [upbeat music]

    17. RC

      If you enjoyed that short clip, I think you are really going to enjoy the full conversation, which you can check out here. [upbeat music]

Episode duration: 17:18

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