Zen Master: If Life Feels Off, DON’T Ignore It!— You Might Be Living the Wrong Life | Henry Shukman

1. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee0:00

   The Dalai Lama says that if every eight-year-old on the planet were to learn meditation, then we would eliminate violence in a single generation. Do you agree with him?

2. HSHenry Shukman0:13

   Basically, yes, I do. I think if, if really everybody got this capacity to be still and quiet with themselves and be aware of what's going on within them and a-around them, it, it opens up a state of peace. It just does. That, that-- the awareness brings with it peace, calm, presence, and it makes a world of difference.

3. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee0:44

   Yeah, it's interesting. I've been thinking about that phrase quite a lot because, of course, we're living in a world where if you were to switch on the news and see what is happening around the world, you would hear a lot of negative stories. War, starvation, um, destruction of, of all kinds, and that's why I felt that quote from the Dalai Lama is so apt. You know, what would it mean to change that? What would it mean to have a kinder, more compassionate world? And in your book, Original Love, one of the things you say towards the end is that, in some ways, that is the point of meditation, to experience love more.

4. HSHenry Shukman1:29

   Yeah. Yeah, I know. It's not often said, actually. Most of the, the things said around meditation are about becoming more aware, becoming more mindful, and of course, that's great. But why become more w- more mindful? And my, my deep sense, uh, after having done it for, you know, these decades I've been doing it, is that it's, in a way, it's always about some kind of taste of love, and it can be self-love, having compassion for this, this being that I am who does suffer, and it can be, of course, love for others that, you know, appearing in my life. And it c- it can be more sort of almost, I'd say, universal or unconditional. Just a sense that to be here, to be existing is, is such a gift, you know?

5. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee2:20

   Yeah. It's interesting. This is the first podcast I'm recording after my summer break, and I was in Australia and had a few live shows. And at the Sydney show, at the end, someone asked me a question. They asked me, "If you could give one pill to everyone around the world to take, what would it be?" I had to think about it on stage and think, "Well, okay, what would it be?" And I said, "Some version of... It would be a kindness pill."

6. HSHenry Shukman2:52

   Wow.

7. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee2:52

   And I explained my rationale for that, and the other thing that came out on stage was that I realized that what I do, Henry, with my books, with this podcast, with, you know, my time with patients, on the surface it appears to be about health, but it isn't. It's actually about kindness and compassion because why do you want to be healthier? Why do you want to be happier? I think those things are downstream. I think the reason you want those things, or we as a species want those things, is so we can be kinder and more compassionate. D-Does that make sense to you?

8. HSHenry Shukman3:34

   Yeah, it, it totally does to me. I think deep down we, we really are. You know, there's a, there's a whole world of, of research now around what happened when humanity started farming and inequality started to come in in a much bigger way. And prior to farming, you know, ten thousand or so years ago, it was hunter-gatherer bands, and they relied on, um, caring and sharing. This is the theories that you'll hear from a lot of-

9. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee4:03

   Mm-hmm

10. HSHenry Shukman4:03

    ... uh, researchers on it, that caring and sharing, in other words, love and, and justice, you know, they're deep in our wiring. We were hunter-gatherers for, whatever, three hundred thousand years or something they're now think-

11. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee4:18

    Mm.

12. HSHenry Shukman4:18

    And that's not counting the, you know, the, the millions of prior times of e-e-evolution. But it's deep in us, I think, to know how to be fair and, and to know how to care. It's part of our makeup, and unfortunately, it's not all we've inherited. We've got, we've got wiring that can get really aggressive and do hate and fear and violence. But actually, it's not like we've got to get something new on board-

13. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee4:48

    Mm

14. HSHenry Shukman4:48

    ... to, to love. I think it's deep in us.

15. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee4:51

    Yeah. It's kind of super interesting, isn't it? You, you mentioned hunter-gatherers and our evolution, and I often wonder about traits like competitiveness and comparing. Um, some people say that's who we are. Others say no, love and kindness actually at its core is who we are.

16. HSHenry Shukman5:12

    Yeah.

17. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee5:13

    And I, I guess one way of thinking about this for people who are stumbling across this conversation, Henry, is h-how might somebody know if they could benefit from a meditation practice? And might it potentially be that if we can see certain egoic traits in ourselves, so comparing ourselves with others, trying to compete with others, never feeling that what we've got is enough. Are those signs that we may benefit from a practice of meditation?

18. HSHenry Shukman5:48

    Yeah, a hundred percent. Absolutely. I mean, I think the m- the, the thing about meditation is that it can take us to marvelous new ways of experiencing the world. That's, I think, a given. It really can do that. There's-- Again, there's tons of research on that. It can be profoundly helpful that way. But it also helps us be with how we are rather than I might get this-You know, new way of being, a new kind of kindness and calm and clarity or whatever, energy. But actually, it also just helps me be with myself as I am. And so the first step is that it, it allows us to notice what's going on, to check in with ourselves. And once we're doing that, we're not so dominated by what's going on. You know, if there's-- if I'm feeling agitated and frustrated and irritated or something-

19. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee6:46

    Mm-hmm

20. HSHenry Shukman6:46

    ... I can actually recognize that rather than just acting it out. So to learn how to be still and aware and sort of come back to ourselves and just be with what we're experiencing, so that's, that's the sort of bedrock of meditation.

21. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee7:03

    Mm.

22. HSHenry Shukman7:03

    That's the foundation of it, is just to be with myself. And sometimes I'm restless, and I'm, I'm impatient, and I, I don't wanna be still. Okay, can I be with that? In other words, just expanding my capacity to be with what goes on in me, um, it's, it's a way of kind of defusing my potential for harm.

23. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee7:25

    Yeah. Make the case, Henry, if you will, for meditation to the skeptic who's listening right now.

24. HSHenry Shukman7:34

    Yeah.

25. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee7:34

    The skeptic who is like, "Henry, listen, you're a Zen master. Um, it's okay for you. I've got a busy life. I've got a partner. I've got some kids that need feeding and looking after. I've got an elderly parent to look after. I'm constantly rushing around. I never have enough time for myself. It's all very well you talking about these love and compassion benefits-

26. HSHenry Shukman7:58

    Yeah, yeah, yeah

27. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee7:58

    ... but that doesn't fit into my life at the moment." What would you say to that person?

28. HSHenry Shukman8:04

    [laughs] I meet, I meet them all the time, you know. [laughs] Yeah, I'd say, look, it's, it's not-- Don't think of it as another chore on the to-do list. Everybody can find five minutes. Everybody can. And just let it be five minutes of you being you, five minutes for you, not for, "I gotta do this thing called meditation." It's just for you, five minutes just being with yourself. Uh, everybody can do that. And in my own story, you know, I had, I had a really difficult, uh, skin condition from, from early childhood right into early adulthood, and it, it was very severe eczema. Sometimes I was hospitalized. But it made me really uncomfortable in my own skin, literally. You know, I, I couldn't sit still. It was a sort of family joke almost.

29. RCDr. Rangan Chatterjee8:55

    Mm-hmm.

30. HSHenry Shukman8:56

    "Henry can't sit still." So I was, I was the worst possible candidate in a way for meditation, but I was also the best possible candidate in a certain sense 'cause I so needed it. But it was the last thing I wanted to do, was sit still. But actually, once I was given tools that would help me sit still, my eczema started to get better for the first time. It really started to... It was a long, gradual process, but it started to, to release. And I'm sure it was because I was intervening in the way that my nervous system was-- had been functioning much of my life, which was on a kind of hyperdrive, constantly-

Episode duration: 1:54:46