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Dr Rangan ChatterjeeDr Rangan Chatterjee

Zen Master: If Life Feels Off, DON’T Ignore It!— You Might Be Living the Wrong Life | Henry Shukman

This episode is brought to you by: AG1: Get 10 FREE Travel Packs and Welcome Kit worth $80 visit: https://bit.ly/43FwxQl BON CHARGE: Save 20% off with code LIVEMORE https://boncharge.com/livemore VIVOBAREFOOT: Get 20% off your first order https://links.drchatterjee.com/4nqvRI3 Do you ever feel as if you’re too busy to meditate, or that you’re simply not very good at it? This is something that so many people experience, yet today’s guest believes that this is ONLY because of a fundamental misunderstanding about what meditation really is. Henry Shukman is an authorised Zen Master and Spiritual Director of the Mountain Cloud Zen Center in Santa Fe, New Mexico. Over the years, Henry has taught meditation at organisations including Google, Harvard Business School and the Esalen Institute, AND he is also the co-founder of ‘The Way’ meditation app, which offers a unique pathway of training designed to help people deepen their practice. Henry is ALSO an award-winning poet and the author of several books, including his latest ‘Original Love: The Four Inns on the Path of Awakening’, which explores meditation as a path to compassion, healing and presence. In our conversation, we explore how meditation can reconnect us with kindness, compassion and a deeper sense of being alive, including: - Why meditation isn’t about achieving something new, but about rediscovering love – whether that’s compassion for ourselves, care for others or a deeper sense of connection with life itself - How even just five minutes each day can begin to calm the nervous system, ease stress and help us feel more present - Why kindness and compassion sit at the heart of health and happiness, and how practices like meditation help us embody them more fully - Henry’s personal story of living with severe eczema, and how meditation helped him transform both his physical health and his relationship with himself - The “four inns” of meditation – mindfulness, support, absorption and awakening – and how they offer a clear and practical roadmap for practice - Practical, accessible ways to bring meditation into life, from stacking it with other habits to finding moments of stillness amid a busy day This episode is a great reminder that meditation isn’t about adding another chore to your list or trying to empty your mind of all thoughts. Many people find it difficult at first and assume they’re not cut out for it, but as Henry explains, there’s no such thing as a bad meditation – the only one that doesn’t count is the one you don’t do. It’s about pausing, being still and coming back to the peace and presence that are part of being human. In a world that constantly pushes us to do more, Henry’s message is a reassuring one: that peace, kindness and love are not rewards to be earned, but parts of who we already are. Reading Henry’s most recent book had a profound impact on me, and I hope that this conversation brings you some of the same insight and inspiration. #feelbetterlivemore Connect with Henry: https://henryshukman.com/ https://www.instagram.com/henryshukman https://www.tiktok.com/@henry.shukman https://www.youtube.com/@ShukmanHenry Henry’s books: Original Love: The Four Inns on the Path of Awakening US https://amzn.to/49bQUug UK https://amzn.to/4oyCOYp One Blade of Grass: A Zen Memoir US https://amzn.to/48BzPtw UK https://amzn.to/4qmTrrJ The Way App https://links.drchatterjee.com/3L9S2Vi Henry’s events & retreats https://henryshukman.com/events #feelbetterlivemore #feelbetterlivemorepodcast ------- Order MAKE CHANGE THAT LASTS. US & Canada version https://amzn.to/3RyO3SL, UK version https://amzn.to/3Kt5rUK ----- Follow Dr Chatterjee at: Website: https://drchatterjee.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/drchatterjee Twitter: https://twitter.com/drchatterjeeuk Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drchatterjee/ Newsletter: https://drchatterjee.com/subscription DISCLAIMER: The content in the podcast and on this webpage is not intended to constitute or be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on the podcast or on my website.

Dr. Rangan ChatterjeehostHenry Shukmanguest
Oct 29, 20251h 54mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 3:34

    Meditation as a pathway to peace, compassion, and “more love”

    1. RC

      The Dalai Lama says that if every eight-year-old on the planet were to learn meditation, then we would eliminate violence in a single generation. Do you agree with him?

    2. HS

      Basically, yes, I do. I think if, if really everybody got this capacity to be still and quiet with themselves and be aware of what's going on within them and a-around them, it, it opens up a state of peace. It just does. That, that-- the awareness brings with it peace, calm, presence, and it makes a world of difference.

    3. RC

      Yeah, it's interesting. I've been thinking about that phrase quite a lot because, of course, we're living in a world where if you were to switch on the news and see what is happening around the world, you would hear a lot of negative stories. War, starvation, um, destruction of, of all kinds, and that's why I felt that quote from the Dalai Lama is so apt. You know, what would it mean to change that? What would it mean to have a kinder, more compassionate world? And in your book, Original Love, one of the things you say towards the end is that, in some ways, that is the point of meditation, to experience love more.

    4. HS

      Yeah. Yeah, I know. It's not often said, actually. Most of the, the things said around meditation are about becoming more aware, becoming more mindful, and of course, that's great. But why become more w- more mindful? And my, my deep sense, uh, after having done it for, you know, these decades I've been doing it, is that it's, in a way, it's always about some kind of taste of love, and it can be self-love, having compassion for this, this being that I am who does suffer, and it can be, of course, love for others that, you know, appearing in my life. And it c- it can be more sort of almost, I'd say, universal or unconditional. Just a sense that to be here, to be existing is, is such a gift, you know?

    5. RC

      Yeah. It's interesting. This is the first podcast I'm recording after my summer break, and I was in Australia and had a few live shows. And at the Sydney show, at the end, someone asked me a question. They asked me, "If you could give one pill to everyone around the world to take, what would it be?" I had to think about it on stage and think, "Well, okay, what would it be?" And I said, "Some version of... It would be a kindness pill."

    6. HS

      Wow.

    7. RC

      And I explained my rationale for that, and the other thing that came out on stage was that I realized that what I do, Henry, with my books, with this podcast, with, you know, my time with patients, on the surface it appears to be about health, but it isn't. It's actually about kindness and compassion because why do you want to be healthier? Why do you want to be happier? I think those things are downstream. I think the reason you want those things, or we as a species want those things, is so we can be kinder and more compassionate. D-Does that make sense to you?

  2. 3:34 – 4:51

    Are humans wired for kindness—or competitiveness?

    1. HS

      Yeah, it, it totally does to me. I think deep down we, we really are. You know, there's a, there's a whole world of, of research now around what happened when humanity started farming and inequality started to come in in a much bigger way. And prior to farming, you know, ten thousand or so years ago, it was hunter-gatherer bands, and they relied on, um, caring and sharing. This is the theories that you'll hear from a lot of-

    2. RC

      Mm-hmm

    3. HS

      ... uh, researchers on it, that caring and sharing, in other words, love and, and justice, you know, they're deep in our wiring. We were hunter-gatherers for, whatever, three hundred thousand years or something they're now think-

    4. RC

      Mm.

    5. HS

      And that's not counting the, you know, the, the millions of prior times of e-e-evolution. But it's deep in us, I think, to know how to be fair and, and to know how to care. It's part of our makeup, and unfortunately, it's not all we've inherited. We've got, we've got wiring that can get really aggressive and do hate and fear and violence. But actually, it's not like we've got to get something new on board-

    6. RC

      Mm

    7. HS

      ... to, to love. I think it's deep in us.

  3. 4:51 – 7:25

    How to tell if meditation could help you (and what it actually trains)

    1. RC

      Yeah. It's kind of super interesting, isn't it? You, you mentioned hunter-gatherers and our evolution, and I often wonder about traits like competitiveness and comparing. Um, some people say that's who we are. Others say no, love and kindness actually at its core is who we are.

    2. HS

      Yeah.

    3. RC

      And I, I guess one way of thinking about this for people who are stumbling across this conversation, Henry, is h-how might somebody know if they could benefit from a meditation practice? And might it potentially be that if we can see certain egoic traits in ourselves, so comparing ourselves with others, trying to compete with others, never feeling that what we've got is enough. Are those signs that we may benefit from a practice of meditation?

    4. HS

      Yeah, a hundred percent. Absolutely. I mean, I think the m- the, the thing about meditation is that it can take us to marvelous new ways of experiencing the world. That's, I think, a given. It really can do that. There's-- Again, there's tons of research on that. It can be profoundly helpful that way. But it also helps us be with how we are rather than I might get this-You know, new way of being, a new kind of kindness and calm and clarity or whatever, energy. But actually, it also just helps me be with myself as I am. And so the first step is that it, it allows us to notice what's going on, to check in with ourselves. And once we're doing that, we're not so dominated by what's going on. You know, if there's-- if I'm feeling agitated and frustrated and irritated or something-

    5. RC

      Mm-hmm

    6. HS

      ... I can actually recognize that rather than just acting it out. So to learn how to be still and aware and sort of come back to ourselves and just be with what we're experiencing, so that's, that's the sort of bedrock of meditation.

    7. RC

      Mm.

    8. HS

      That's the foundation of it, is just to be with myself. And sometimes I'm restless, and I'm, I'm impatient, and I, I don't wanna be still. Okay, can I be with that? In other words, just expanding my capacity to be with what goes on in me, um, it's, it's a way of kind of defusing my potential for harm.

  4. 7:25 – 9:49

    Making the case to the skeptic: ‘Don’t add a chore—take 5 minutes for you’

    1. RC

      Yeah. Make the case, Henry, if you will, for meditation to the skeptic who's listening right now.

    2. HS

      Yeah.

    3. RC

      The skeptic who is like, "Henry, listen, you're a Zen master. Um, it's okay for you. I've got a busy life. I've got a partner. I've got some kids that need feeding and looking after. I've got an elderly parent to look after. I'm constantly rushing around. I never have enough time for myself. It's all very well you talking about these love and compassion benefits-

    4. HS

      Yeah, yeah, yeah

    5. RC

      ... but that doesn't fit into my life at the moment." What would you say to that person?

    6. HS

      [laughs] I meet, I meet them all the time, you know. [laughs] Yeah, I'd say, look, it's, it's not-- Don't think of it as another chore on the to-do list. Everybody can find five minutes. Everybody can. And just let it be five minutes of you being you, five minutes for you, not for, "I gotta do this thing called meditation." It's just for you, five minutes just being with yourself. Uh, everybody can do that. And in my own story, you know, I had, I had a really difficult, uh, skin condition from, from early childhood right into early adulthood, and it, it was very severe eczema. Sometimes I was hospitalized. But it made me really uncomfortable in my own skin, literally. You know, I, I couldn't sit still. It was a sort of family joke almost.

    7. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    8. HS

      "Henry can't sit still." So I was, I was the worst possible candidate in a way for meditation, but I was also the best possible candidate in a certain sense 'cause I so needed it. But it was the last thing I wanted to do, was sit still. But actually, once I was given tools that would help me sit still, my eczema started to get better for the first time. It really started to... It was a long, gradual process, but it started to, to release. And I'm sure it was because I was intervening in the way that my nervous system was-- had been functioning much of my life, which was on a kind of hyperdrive, constantly-

    9. RC

      Mm-hmm

    10. HS

      ... you know, overactivated nervous system.

  5. 9:49 – 15:09

    ‘All sickness is homesickness’: upstream healing and the gap between you and your life

    1. RC

      Yeah. You were intervening, as I hear that, really far upstream. One of the things I've realized in my career as a doctor is that a lot of what we do in medicine is downstream, okay? You had... Well, I mean, I've heard you describe your eczema. I mean, this isn't just a little bit of bad eczema. This was horrific. You know, you felt like you were burning up on the inside. You n- district nurse needs to come round and bathe you and put things around you, right? It, it, it's pretty incredible. But, you know, what do we do with eczema generally in medicine? There's multiple things we'll do, but in essence, we try and give you something like a steroid cream-

    2. HS

      Mm

    3. RC

      ... to get rid of the itching.

    4. HS

      Yeah.

    5. RC

      Right?

    6. HS

      Yeah.

    7. RC

      But that's downstream.

    8. HS

      Yeah.

    9. RC

      That's not the cause of your eczema. And of course, there are multiple causes.

    10. HS

      Yeah.

    11. RC

      There's multiple things that contributes. But there's something really quite profound in the, in the... I think it's the forward to Original Love where I think... Is it Rick Hanson who wrote the foreword?

    12. HS

      It is, yes.

    13. RC

      He quotes Tara Brach saying, "All sickness is homesickness"-

    14. HS

      [laughs]

    15. RC

      ... which is just beautiful-

    16. HS

      Yeah

    17. RC

      ... like this separation from who we are.

    18. HS

      Yeah.

    19. RC

      Or certainly, let me give you my interpretation-

    20. HS

      Yes

    21. RC

      ... when I read that, was like, once there's a separation in who we really are, who we are being in the world compared to who we actually are, it's in that void, it's, it's in that gap, where all our problems start, and that could be health problems as well.

    22. HS

      Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think that, I think that is right. I'd say there's sort of multiple levels of homecoming. You know, for me, when I started meditating, just to be sitting still and able to get these little moments of being aware, "Oh, I'm sitting still. It's okay. It's okay," you know. I was so used to being in this hyperactivated state where basically I was anxious almost all the time, you know, that, that it was, it was such a gift, this, this little instance of, "It's okay. Right now it's okay." And it was me finding it. It wasn't somebody telling me that.

    23. RC

      Mm.

    24. HS

      That was critical. That... And, and all that I had to... This is the other side of meditation, is it's so insanely simple.You're just, you're just sitting here. There's nothing... There's kinda nothing to it. Yes, it helps to have a few little methods, and we, we can get those. But basically, we're just not doing anything.

    25. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    26. HS

      And I started to find, in the midst of this sort of storm of itching and anxiety and, and stress and worry and, you know, that was kind of almost constant-

    27. RC

      Yeah

    28. HS

      ... I started to find, it's okay. Right now, it's okay, and then I'd be back to the storm again.

    29. RC

      It, it reminds me a little bit of, um, Ellen Langer. Do you know Ellen, the mindfulness professor-

    30. HS

      No, I don't know

  6. 15:09 – 19:31

    Loving meditation vs doing it to ‘get something’: the shift from striving to being

    1. RC

      Yeah, yeah. In your latest book, you write about these four inns on the path of awakening, and I think it's just such a beautiful way to lay out a path that one might wish to take if they choose to meditate. Before you actually articulate these four different inns, throughout the book, you wrote something which I've, I've been meditating on actually. Awakening, right? You say, "Awakening has a potential like nothing else to heal the destructive divisions of this world." And then you sort of say so how do we get there? Basically, we learn to meditate, and we learn to love meditating. Now, I'm fascinated, Henry, as to why people struggle to make changes that actually last, you know. People often listen to this show for guidance on how they can live healthier, happier, more compassionate lives, and people will follow something for a bit and then fall off track. Looking at that through the lens of meditation, I feel, and I used to have this as well myself, that people meditate to get something.

    2. HS

      Mm-hmm.

    3. RC

      Right? So, oh, I, I... Oh, I read this study that meditation could help with anxiety. I should meditate.

    4. HS

      Mm.

    5. RC

      So they're meditating because they feel they should. Oh, at some point, am I gonna get something out of this practice? That's very different from the second part of that phrase, which is to learn to love to meditate, and I think I really wanted to explore that because there's a different energy behind that. If you'll meditate because, oh, you know, I know this is gonna help me. God, I tried it last year. Couldn't make it stick. Oh, man, I'm gonna try and do it this year. It feels like a struggle, and that struggle means at some point, I would imagine, they're gonna fall away from it. So what's the difference, and how do you go from that-

    6. HS

      Yeah

    7. RC

      ... to learning to love to meditate?

    8. HS

      Yeah, that's, that's a really great... I'd forgotten I'd written that actually, so [laughs] thanks for reminding me, and it's a really great question. And it's critical actually because I think our general orientation in life that we've been conditioned to have, and it's, it seems very natural that we would have it, is sort of trying to get what we want and avoid what we don't want, and of course, that makes total sense, and that's, that's, that's fine and good that we do that. But when it comes to meditation, we're, we're actually opening up the possibility of simply being. It's like a shift from wanting to get X, Y, and Z, well and good. Fine. But what if there's something already here that we just need to s- to sort of fall into the arms of kind of thing? It's already here, and when we get even a little taste of it, it feels good already.And it makes us realize that, yes, I'm, I'm absolutely right in having these goals and these things that I want to, I want to e-either achieve and accomplish, and also simply acquire, and also things that I really want to avoid and be free of, and, and perhaps get over. And I've heard that meditation may help with all that, so in other words, bringing the same mindset that I've got for everything else to meditation. It's, it's very natural, and it's okay. But there's something else each of us can find for ourselves which is really different, where it-- we, we actually drop the search and, and quest, and struggle to get what we want. We drop that. And, you know, it's, it's a little shift. It's, uh... There's maybe a little-

    9. RC

      Mm-hmm

    10. HS

      ... knack to it, a little something, and we'll get it more and more the more we meditate. Because when, when... What happens in that shift is that we find there's something already here that-

    11. RC

      Yeah

    12. HS

      ... that we love.

  7. 19:31 – 22:09

    Practical habit design: consistency, decision-making, and “stacking” the practice

    1. RC

      Yeah, I love that. I mean, you've already said in this conversation that even five minutes a day can have a profound effect. And there's a section in the book where you talk about tips for practice. You say, number one, not too long, so consistency is more important than duration. So five minutes a day-

    2. HS

      Mm

    3. RC

      ... is better than twenty minutes once a month kind of thing.

    4. HS

      Way better. Way better.

    5. RC

      Right?

    6. HS

      Yeah.

    7. RC

      And I think we've all got five minutes a day. And you also talk about establishing a regular time. You say, yeah, for many people, for most people, dare I say it, the morning is the best time. But you also spoke about things like straight after a shower, or when it gets to dusk, or before bed.

    8. HS

      Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

    9. RC

      Can you talk to us a little bit about the more practical nature of how we can actually, you know, implement this practice into our daily lives?

    10. HS

      Yeah. I'd say the, the biggest thing is to make the decision, "I'm doing it every day for a month," or something like that. Put a time limit on it and decide that you've made the decision, so you don't have to make the decision each time.

    11. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    12. HS

      "Shall I do it or not?" You've already made that decision. I remember hearing two economists wrote a book about dieting. They'd been having a lot of big lunches, and they wanted to do something about it, and they said the same point. They said, "Just decide no dessert." It's just off the table, so you don't have to keep remaking the decision.

    13. RC

      Yeah.

    14. HS

      It's like, it's like brushing the teeth. We don't really make a decision about it or about showering.

    15. RC

      Yeah.

    16. HS

      We just do it, you know, 'cause it's the... Actually, we made the decision long ago-

    17. RC

      Mm

    18. HS

      ... and we're just stuck with it. So i-if it can be like that, and then you stack it with some other activity, that makes it a bit easier, you know, like a shower after you've been working out or something or, uh, you know, just before a morning walk, or just before breakfast, or-

    19. RC

      Mm

    20. HS

      ... just before the first cup of coffee, you know.

    21. RC

      Mm.

    22. HS

      Stacking it while the kettle's boiling if it's just five minutes-

    23. RC

      Mm

    24. HS

      ... and let the kettle sit. You know? So you stack it with something else. And, and... But again, the, the why, yeah, that... of course, that can help if you've got a strong reason. And I, I mean, for me, the biggest reason is to be alive, you know. It... And that may sound a bit crazy, but we're so busy doing from... You know, we get up, and we just do, do, do, that we don't get a moment to recognize, "I'm actually alive."

    25. RC

      [chuckles]

    26. HS

      "I'm, I'm, I'm being given the gift of being alive and, and aware, aware of being alive." And somehow I think that's the biggest thing about meditation, it gives us a chance to actually know that we're alive.

  8. 22:09 – 30:27

    Solitude vs meditation: the unique power of ‘not doing’ and letting commotion settle

    1. RC

      Is there something unique about meditation? And the reason that I, I ask that question, Henry, is because I will often talk about the benefits of solitude.

    2. HS

      Yeah.

    3. RC

      And I do strongly believe that in twenty twenty-five, for most people, a daily practice of solitude is probably the most important thing they can do for their health, wellbeing, their happiness. Because we're living in a world where there's so much noise, we can constantly consume from the outside, so it gets very hard for us to actually listen to what's going on on the inside. But solitude, of course, comes in a variety of different forms. You can practice solitude by sitting in meditation, but you can also practice solitude by journaling, or by doing some breathwork, or by going for a walk in nature. So if we think about solitude as a practice, do you feel that there's something unique that meditation offers that those other practices potentially don't offer?

    4. HS

      I love all the ones you mentioned. I do them myself, actually, and I think they're, they're very... they've been critical for my-

    5. RC

      Mm

    6. HS

      ... my development, my wellbeing. The difference with meditation is that we're not really doing anything. I, I would say stack it with one of those. If you're doing one of those solitude practices, walking in the woods, yeah, journaling, lovely. Just add five minutes. Put in five minutes somewhere-

    7. RC

      Mm-hmm

    8. HS

      ... where you lay down the pen, you sit on a log, on a branch, on a bench, and y-you're just still, and you just let yourself be. 'Cause, 'cause the, the, the big thing about it is not doing.

    9. RC

      Mm.

    10. HS

      If we didn't think of it as meditation, we just call it not doing.

    11. RC

      Mm.

    12. HS

      That's all we'd need to say. We're not moving. We're not walking. We're breathing-

    13. RC

      Yeah

    14. HS

      ... and we're aware. And gradually the... in time, it's like this tide of commotion within us, it just starts to settle. It, it won't-

    15. RC

      Mm.

    16. HS

      It's not that it does it within every meditation session. But if we're doing it every day, over time-Over a month, two months, three months, you'll start to feel it. The tide of commotion-

    17. RC

      Yeah

    18. HS

      ... just recedes.

    19. RC

      The, the sense that I, I got from reading Original Love is, well, [laughs] many things, but one of the senses I got was this idea that it's about the practice of meditation, not necessarily the outcome of the meditation. Some days you'll experience calm and presence. Other days it'll be a busy, hectic mind-

    20. HS

      That's it

    21. RC

      ... but that's all okay. So i- instead of judging on the outcome... I mean, don't judge it at all, but if you're gonna judge it on anything, judge it on whether you're actually sitting down and practicing every day. Do the five minute. I mean, you're-

    22. HS

      Yeah

    23. RC

      ... the Zen master, so tell me if I've got-

    24. HS

      Yeah

    25. RC

      ... this right, but that's my sense.

    26. HS

      That's exactly right, and actually we say on our, on our app, The Way, we say, "There's no bad meditation," or, "The only bad medita- meditation is the one you didn't do."

    27. RC

      Yeah.

    28. HS

      Just the very fact of sitting down with the intention of being still and quiet, that's it. It's absolutely true. Because here's the thing, it's like with the, again, with that outcome focus, it- we're back to that frame of mind where I've gotta try to get what I want in life.

    29. RC

      [laughs]

    30. HS

      I've gotta try to get what I want, and it's very understandable, but meditation really isn't about that. And for most people, when we start, it is, and that's okay. It was for me. I'd... I didn't know what I needed, I just desperately needed something different when I was anxious and-

  9. 30:27 – 37:44

    ‘Original love’ vs original sin: cultural conditioning, children, and happiness as default

    1. HS

      Th- th- that's why I call the book Original Love.

    2. RC

      Because originally there's love, and it's here right now, and if you have a concept like original sin, the Western foundation of its, of its Judeo-Christian spiritual system, you're wrong. You start bad. You start-

    3. HS

      Yeah

    4. RC

      ... needing to prove yourself, needing to become worthy-

    5. HS

      [laughs]

    6. RC

      ... needing to, you know, it, it... And then, and you add that, the, the whole industrial and post-industrial work ethic, work, work, work. It's all y- you're not okay until you've achieved and accomplished whatever it might be. I don't agree.

    7. HS

      Yeah. Mm-hmm, yeah.

    8. RC

      I, I, I think we start okay. We're built in already okay. Wanted, belonging, beloved even, you know, just by the, by the fact of existing. The, the universe wants us here, or we wouldn't be here-

    9. HS

      Mm

    10. RC

      ... in some sense, you know? And so original love is what we can come back to, not, not having to escape some shame state, original sin-

    11. HS

      Mm. Yeah

    12. RC

      ... not having to escape that and prove that we, we deserve our place on this earth.

    13. HS

      Yeah.

    14. RC

      No.

    15. HS

      No.

    16. RC

      We... It's, it's, it's the opposite of that. It's just by being. You know, we can, we can break the... Again, I'm not saying don't do anything, you know, but have space in your day when you're not doing a thing-

    17. HS

      Yeah

    18. RC

      ... when you're just being. I'm delighted to announce that AG1, the daily health drink that has been in my own life for over six years now, have updated and improved their formulation based upon the latest science. And to celebrate by giving my audience a very special offer. Some of the upgrades include more magnesium, which supports muscle function and improves the ability of your nervous system to relax, and also five strains of bacteria instead of just two to reflect the latest advances in microbiome science. It also contains key nutrients like vitamin C, biotin, niacin, vitamin B6, riboflavin, thiamine, zinc, and folate in bioavailable forms the body can easily and readily utilize, maximizing their potential benefits. Nutrition can often seem really complicated. What diet should we be following? What supplements should we be taking? And I think that's one of the main reasons I really like AG1. They make it really simple for you to be the best version of you. Over 70 ingredients, one scoop once a day for less than a cup of coffee. So if you wanna support your health seven mornings a week, get started with AG1, and right now we have a very special limited time offer worth 58 pounds, which is around 80 US dollars. To get 10 free Travel Packs instead of the usual five and an awesome Welcome Kit containing your shaker, scoop, and canister with your first subscription, go to drinkag1.com/livemore. Yeah, it's kind of interesting in, in a world now where people are saying that wellness is the preserve of the, the wealthy and the middle classes.

    19. HS

      Yeah.

    20. RC

      But if we think about what you're saying at its very core, yes, you have an app which is very reasonably priced, so people wanna, you know, engage in it, okay? At the same time, what you're simply saying is sit for five minutes a day and essentially do nothing. That is accessible to every single person. It doesn't matter your income level, you know, where you grow up in the world. So, like, everyone has access to that, but you almost have to stop the doing, and I think this is one of the reasons why people in the West struggle with meditation. It's like, "Okay, I'm gonna do it to get this."

    21. HS

      [laughs]

    22. RC

      But... And I think I used to do that, but I... The, the truth is, Henry, I love meditating. I didn't at first.

    23. HS

      Right.

    24. RC

      It was a struggle. But there is just this luxurious feeling of bliss and calm sometimes when I sit in meditation. That's not a chore. That's like-

    25. HS

      No

    26. RC

      ... this feels amazing.

    27. HS

      E- exactly. Exactly.

    28. RC

      And, and I think everyone has the opportunity to experience that.

    29. HS

      I, I, I do too. Just by virtue of being a human being, we already have access to it. The problem is just we're so conditioned in not knowing that we have access to it. It's just like a faulty imprinting on our consciousness that our, our society has given us, our culture has given us. You must be doing, you must be achieving, you must be avoiding what a-

    30. RC

      Yeah

  10. 37:44 – 1:54:46

    The Four Inns map begins: Mindfulness and Support as foundations

    1. RC

      Yeah. Let's get into these four inns in the path of awakening: mindfulness, support, absorption, and awakening. It's one of the first times I've actually seen a roadmap laid out on the kind of journey one could take if they participate in meditation. And it's a journey that I'm thinking, "Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm ready for this journey." I, I kind of-- The truth is, I'm al- I'm already on this journey-

    2. HS

      [laughs]

    3. RC

      ... you know, because I've been meditating on and off for years.

    4. HS

      Yeah.

    5. RC

      Um, I particularly probably want to focus on the, the, the final two, absorption and awakening, but if you wouldn't mind just giving a brief overview of each one, what they are-

    6. HS

      Yeah

    7. RC

      ... just so people can follow along, that would be super helpful. So, you know, what are these four inns, and why did you choose them?

    8. HS

      Yeah, okay. Well, I think these are the primary dimensions that meditation practice can open up for us, that, that they deal with. And it's-- I, I wanted to write this and lay it out like this because there's a lot of confusion around it.

    9. RC

      Mm.

    10. HS

      Meditation has grown exponentially in, in the globalized Western world over the last twenty years. And-

    11. RC

      That's a good thing?

    12. HS

      It's a very good thing.

    13. RC

      Okay.

    14. HS

      But it's all new here, and there's still confusion around it.

    15. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    16. HS

      So people hear the term awakening, and they hear mindfulness. Are they the same thing? They might think, "Well, this teacher said they are. This one said they're not. I don't know. I'm confused." So here's... This... I want to... This is a basic map of the-

    17. RC

      Yeah

    18. HS

      ... of the ground, of the territory, and I'm not sure it's entirely comprehensive, but it's pretty good. It covers, it covers all, pretty much all the basics. So the first, mindfulness. Yes, about becoming more aware, able to recognize what's going on inside me, thoughts and feelings, emotions, moods. Can be very happy, can be not so happy. And, um, and talk in the mind, images in the mind, you know, the experience of thinking, very common for all of us. Um, energies in the body. Being more aware of that, and also being aware of, of hearing, hearing the sounds. Seeing sights and colors and shapes and faces and everything. And, um, body sensation, physical body sensation.

    19. RC

      Mm.

    20. HS

      Being more aware in all those ways, uh, that's mindfulness, and it can help to dial down our nervous system. It can really help to interrupt when our nervous system is on overdrive, when the sympathetic nervous system is firing up, we're in subtle stress or strong stress. It can dial it down, and we come back to a baseline. We open up the parasympathetic nervous system. More rest, rest and digest, coming into a calmer state. And so it really helps to kind of tone and balance the nervous system.

    21. RC

      And, and before you go into the second inn, just on that first set of mindfulness, if that's the only one that we ever focused on, th- those things you're talking about are pretty incredible. Like-

    22. HS

      They're enormous. [laughs]

    23. RC

      ... moving your system from-

    24. HS

      Yeah

    25. RC

      ... the stressed out, burnt out, chronically exhausted state that many people find themselves in into that more peaceful, relaxed state, which is also gonna impact your sleep, how calm you feel, your gut. All these things are gonna improve. Even that alone, that first inn-

    26. HS

      Yeah

    27. RC

      ... has huge benefits, doesn't it?

    28. HS

      It totally does. I mean, I'd say most of the first few years of my meditation practice was all about that. I mean, one of the things that happened to me when I started to meditate and, and, you know, I really, really seriously started, I, um, I did twice a day, every day, you know, without fail, 'cause I was desperate enough that I needed to.

    29. RC

      Because of your skin.

    30. HS

      Because of my skin and the anxiety with it, that came with it. I slept insanely. The first week, I was sleeping eighteen hours a night, twenty hours a night, literally.

  11. 1:01:27 – 1:17:21

    Inn Three—Absorption (Samadhi): flow without external dependencies, plus beauty as a gateway

    1. RC

      Let's do that. Let's, let's creep in. [laughs]

    2. HS

      So the third inn is, is flow in meditation or samadhi it's called or absorption. It's where, it's where we get into, uh, these beautiful states of mind and, uh, they call it... The traditional name is samadhi in the meditation world.

    3. RC

      Sanskrit word?

    4. HS

      Yes.

    5. RC

      Yeah.

    6. HS

      And it's something about whole- everything held together, everything unified. It's very... And it's, it's energized, and it's peaceful, and it's calm, and it's clear, and it's effortless. The most common way people find it is in activities actually 'cause it's not exclusive to meditation this, is this flow states have been really thoroughly researched since... There was a guy called Csikszentmihalyi back in the '70s and '80s who s- began pioneering research on flow states.

    7. RC

      Yeah.

    8. HS

      And, you know, people, athletes will get into it, musicians. Actually, anybody will get into flow now and then while engaged in some kind of activity and, and it, it can be from a very challenging activity like, you know, basketball or, y- you know, or getting in the zone, painting or something, you know, a, an artist or a musician. But it can also be just simple repetitive tasks will get into a flow state.

    9. RC

      Is that different from getting into a flow state whilst meditating? Because it-

    10. HS

      Yeah

    11. RC

      ... you know, the things you mentioned are about doing something, right?

    12. HS

      Yeah. Yeah.

    13. RC

      And we spoke about doing already, so we're-

    14. HS

      Yeah

    15. RC

      ... you know, yeah, surfing, mountain biking, playing guitar, you know-

    16. HS

      Yeah

    17. RC

      ... painting, right?

    18. HS

      Yeah.

    19. RC

      So we're doing an activity where we switch off. Well, it feels as though, you know, time stands still. We're fully immersed.

    20. HS

      Yeah.

    21. RC

      Body and mind, there's no separation. That feels as though it's different though from reaching that state by just sitting there-

    22. HS

      Yes

    23. RC

      ... or, or is it different?

    24. HS

      Well, I... It's a great question and it's... I, I've thought, I've wondered about this a lot. When flow comes on in an activity, um, because it becomes effortless and time stands still, exactly as you said, and there's se- much less sense of self, you know, we're not so self-conscious-

    25. RC

      Mm.

    26. HS

      It's, it's almost like we're not doing for some other purpose. We're just doing the thing we're doing, and that's enough. It's for its own-

    27. RC

      Yeah.

    28. HS

      We're doing it for the sake of doing it, you know, and it's fulfilling. So in meditation, just transferring all of that to meditation, the great difference is that we're not doing an outward activity. That is the big difference in meditation. So we're getting into similar states with our own being, with our own being, you know. And, and, and it's, it's where meditation really is starting to kick in and show us what it's been about all along, which is not for other purposes, just for its own sake.

    29. RC

      Mm.

    30. HS

      We're doing it without a kind of ulterior motive, you know. And, and but it is similar to flow in other, in other areas-

  12. 1:17:21 – 1:19:52

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    1. RC

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  13. 1:19:52 – 1:52:30

    Inn Four—Awakening (non-duality): Henry’s beach experience, integration, and ‘bringing no fear’

    1. RC

      first order and enjoy a one-hundred-day money-back guarantee, visit vivobarefoot.com/livemore. Click on the link in the description box below or scan the QR code on screen. There's so much more about absorption I wanna talk to you about, Cohen's and the importance of beauty. Maybe I'll just park those for a moment because I wanna make sure we have time for the fourth inning-

    2. HS

      Yeah

    3. RC

      ... uh, awakening. And what's really interesting to me, and I know you talk about it and you write about this in the book, is that these first three innings, mindfulness, support, and absorption, are still all done under the realm where we still have a self, right? And I guess, you know, for people who need some meditation, maybe just start there, right? Maybe you don't need to come to this point, right? But this is what I'm really, really interested in, so I wanna, I wanna go in here, if that's okay, into inn four.

    4. HS

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    5. RC

      This idea where the first three are great, but there's still this idea that we have an identity that is a self, whereas in inn four, there's a loss of self, isn't there? So I don't know how you wanna tackle this, but can you explain to us what is this fourth inn of awakening?

    6. HS

      It's, [chuckles] it's a difficult thing to talk about actually, because it's a discovery that we can each make about who we really are, who we've been all along. And, um, it may sound weird, it may not make a lot of sense to hear about it. And on the other hand, there may be people who hear about it and think, "Oh my gosh, that's what that was, some moment I had as a kid that I've never forgotten."

    7. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    8. HS

      "Some moment I had as a, as a, as a youth that I've never forgotten, when it was as if I discovered that I wasn't separate from the world I live in," that my sense of being me contained within my skin, that I, I inhabit this body that I think of as mine, and what I am is something within this body, some little core nugget or core that's me, that I know so well. I've, I've been with it as long as I can remember. But suddenly it was as if that wasn't there. That wasn't here, and instead I was part of everything. It's, it's a sudden glimpse of a different way of experiencing ourselves in this world.

    9. RC

      I don't think I've ever covered non-duality on the podcast to date. So perhaps-

    10. HS

      Yeah

    11. RC

      ... perhaps the best way to start this is with you describing what happened to you when you were backpacking at nineteen.

    12. HS

      [chuckles] Okay.

    13. RC

      I don't know. What do you think?

    14. HS

      Yeah. Yeah, I think so too. I think it's, it's probably easier to get it if I, if I try to describe it-

    15. RC

      Yeah

    16. HS

      ... you know. So, so I, you know, as I said, I'd grown up in Oxford. I had this terrible eczema. I went away when I was eighteen, nineteen on a gap year, and I worked, um, actually in South America. I worked on a ranch, um, for, for several months. That was, uh, through my dad. Somebody in his college was from Argentina, and I worked there and then I backpacked. And towards the end of the trip, um, I was alone on a beach and I was... It really was a... It was an empty, deserted beach, and I was just looking at the sun going down over the water. It was incredibly beautiful, you know, and I was studying the water and the light on the water, and I was, I was just standing there very absorbed in this beautiful scene with nobody around. Real profound solitude. A very... It was just so beautiful. And suddenly it was as if I wasn't looking at the scene in front of me, I was part of it. It was, it was as if the me that could look at the world and see it as separate just switched off, and somehow I discovered, it felt like a discovery, that I had always been part of everything. I wasn't a separate observer. The sense of being the separate me who is moving through the world as a separate entity, that separateness just switched off, and in its place was a sense of total belonging, just being part of everything without exception. And it, it felt like-In a certain way, really, it felt like I was part of the whole universe, and I'd never not been. And it wasn't an idea. It was a f- it was a palpable sensation. It was as if I could... It really felt for a moment as if my, my fingertips were reached to the end of the universe. My... The tip of my nose was pressing against the beginning of time and the end of time. It was as if what I really was and always had been was part of everything.

    17. RC

      I-is, is the term out of body experience relevant here or is it almost too reductionist? Just-

    18. HS

      Yeah, I mean, to, to me, out of body suggests that, you know, when people describe NDEs, you know-

    19. RC

      Yeah. They, they-

    20. HS

      ... where they're sort of up looking down, they could see their body. I think it was totally different actually, because it wasn't the, "Here's my body, I've left it." It was the, "Here's my body, it's everything," or that my true body is everything. That's, that's what it felt like. But the, the, the, the me, the, the... You know, when I say my true body, it didn't feel like mine in the way that I n-normally knew the sense of me. That felt like what I really was was everything, part of everything. And it was very... I mean, it's... I, I don't mean to say, like, I was huge or something. No, it, it wasn't, it wasn't sort of-

    21. RC

      Almost like... Was it almost like you just blended in with everything?

    22. HS

      It's, it's more like-

    23. RC

      Like you were just-

    24. HS

      Yes, it's more like that. It's more like... It's more like-

    25. RC

      Yeah

    26. HS

      ... the, the, the boundary between me and the world was gone.

    27. RC

      These non-dual experiences, okay? Are words inherently limiting in our [chuckles] attempt to describe it?

    28. HS

      Yes. It, it, it's an unfortunate thing. It, it can't do it.

    29. RC

      Because some people... I'm, I'm-

    30. HS

      Yeah

  14. 1:52:30 – 1:54:46

    Where to start: apps, community, and one minute of stillness

    1. RC

      I've thoroughly enjoyed my conversation with you. I certainly hope we get the chance to do a part two at some point. Um, but just to finish off, for that, for that person who has made it this far-

    2. HS

      Mm-hmm

    3. RC

      ... who's listened to the conversation and feels that, "Yeah, you know what? Meditation I think is what I need right now," and perhaps the fourth stage of awakening feels too far just at the moment, but they're thinking, "Yeah, I want a bit of mindfulness. I want support. I want that flow state from meditation, but I don't know where to start," what would your final words be to them?

    4. HS

      Yeah. Um, well, I don't wanna be self-serving, but the Way app, um, is a great way to get into it-

    5. RC

      Mm-hmm

    6. HS

      ... 'cause it, it lays it out for you so you don't have to choose. So that's one option. And, um, there's a ton of other great apps. Headspace, Calm, you know, they'll help as well. And, um, uh, but the biggest thing is just give yourself five minutes alone with yourself, being still, being quiet. If you're not... If you don't even, you know, don't even wanna touch an app, fine. Just sit down alone for five minutes. Just see what it's like, you know. Can you let yourself be still and quiet? Just, just be. Just be you 'cause you're... All you're doing is coming home to you. It's not some grand thing that you gotta get, you gotta do really. It's coming home to you. Can you just give yourself that one minute a day? If you can't do five, do one.

    7. RC

      Henry Shukman, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for coming on the show.

    8. HS

      Thank you very, very much for having me. A delight and a real honor.

    9. RC

      If you enjoyed that conversation, then I think you are really going to enjoy this one.

    10. SP

      It's only when you learn what to do with your unhappiness that you can really break through and find stable happiness

Episode duration: 1:54:46

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