Re:Thinking with Adam GrantFamily bonding with John & Hank Green and Julia & Jim Curtis
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
60 min read · 12,120 words- 0:00 – 1:44
Goofiness vs earnestness: setting the tone for “vibe”
- SPSpeaker
We like to get into it and get serious and talk about important things, and we also like to goof. And for me, if the goof isn't there, it's hard to vibe with a person. Yeah. I find it easier than you do if the goof isn't there- Yeah ... because I'm so fricking earnest. As I say about John, some people are afraid to be corny, but John was born on the cob. [laughs] Such a bad joke. Don't reward that with a laugh, Adam.
- AGAdam Grant
You laughed too.
- SPSpeaker
I'm sorry. I can't help it. It's, it's so bad, it's almost funny.
- AGAdam Grant
There's something great about born on the cob.
- SPSpeaker
You love the goofs.
- JCJulia Curtis
I knew that my dad was always going to have my back and was always going to be honest with me, whether it be good or bad.
- JCJim Curtis
You have to let people in the other seat do what they need to do, but you're there to catch them if they're gonna fall, or you're there to hoist them up a little bit higher too. [upbeat music]
- AGAdam Grant
Well, I'm excited that you were both willing to do this. Thank you.
- SPSpeaker
Hello. Well- Thank you ... we- welcome to your show.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs] Thanks, Hank. You know, I've never interacted with the two of you at the same time.
- SPSpeaker
Oh, interesting. Yeah. Well, we have a good repartee. We've been doing it for- We've, we've interacted with each other a bunch ... 40 years. Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
I, I was thinking I would just invite you on to vibe and, and watch the whole thing and see what happens.
- SPSpeaker
Okay, perfect. Can I... I've got questions for you if you, if, if, if you haven't any for us. Yeah, if you don't have questions for us- Yeah ... I mean, yeah, I'd love to learn more about organizational psychology.
- AGAdam Grant
Who is hosting this show? Please.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Nice try. Although you're, you're better at it and more experienced at it than I am-
- SPSpeaker
Oh
- AGAdam Grant
... so I probably should just let you take over.
- SPSpeaker
If you say so. Are we? I don't know. No, we're not. I, I feel very new to interviewing. I just, I've really just started doing it, and it is quite a skill.
- AGAdam Grant
Well, I think, for whatever it's worth, I do have a few planned questions, but I was mostly hoping we would go off the script, and therefore, I wrote very little of a script.
- SPSpeaker
Great.
- 1:44 – 2:52
What a “vibe” is—and the pressure to curate it
- AGAdam Grant
I'll actually start with something that I'd love to hear both of you react to, which is when you think of creating a great vibe, what comes to mind? Like, what is a vibe to you?
- SPSpeaker
I'm like... I don't know. I feel, like, like, hyper-conscious of the vibe. I always want people to like me. I always wanna be, like, non-threatening. I remember, I had, my, almost all my friends in high school were girls, and I'm, like, I'm, like, bigger than the average man, and I wanted very much to be seen as in no way threatening at all. And I'm, like, really, like, over-conscious of how I am perceived. This is a burden. [laughs] And so I, I, I kinda feel like a, uh, professional curator of the vibe to some extent. I agree with Hank. Like, I think Hank and I both, especially when we were younger, desperately wanted to be liked by strangers. Mm-hmm. Desperately wanted to be liked by everyone. Mm-hmm. And I think for me, it came from not being liked. It came from being bullied in middle school and, and being really unpopular and not having any friends and feeling really lonely. And I just remember thinking if I could cultivate a vibe of coolness- Mm-hmm ... of friendliness, then I could be okay. So that's what I think of when I think of the vibe, but I also think of how the, the vibe
- 2:52 – 4:32
Adult friendship awkwardness and the “seventh-grade brain” that lingers
- SPSpeaker
between people, right? Like, I think about the, I immediately think- Mm-hmm ... about the vibe between Hank and me and how it's one that I, I count on. Like, I count on the vibes being good between us because they always are, and if they ever weren't, it would be a catastrophe. Yeah. And it, it's interesting to, like, make friends as a 46-year-old. Yeah. So, like, uh, there, there's all, the, like, and now that I have got a, a, uh, you know, an elementary school student living in the house, there's all these n- new people who are coming into my life who are the parents of my son's friends. And they have very, as a, sometimes very different worlds, and the vi- the vibe can be off, and I'm like, "Uh, ooh, ah, uh."
- AGAdam Grant
Well, Hank, you were, you were talking about the weirdness of making friends as a 46-year-old, and I was, I was starting to get nervous 'cause I just turned 45. I'm like, "Oh, no. Next year-"
- SPSpeaker
Well, it's gonna be hard.
- AGAdam Grant
"... making friends is gonna get really hard." [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
You outlined this in the book, but, like, it's so interesting to me. You've done such an amazing job of becoming a different, of, uh, I don't know if a different person is the right word, but, like, a vibe cultivation that- [laughs] ... I, I, I can't recognize that kid in today's you, if that makes sense.
- AGAdam Grant
That is a pleasant surprise, 'cause I feel like-
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
... that, that kid still lives in my head and tries to get out every day. [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. I'm sure. I'm sure. Yeah. Yeah, just the bullied, the bullied seventh-grader who's terrified of everything and everyone still lives in, in my head and is trying to get out every day too. Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
Well, if only, if only we'd known each other in seventh grade, life would've been easier.
- SPSpeaker
May- I feel like we- Oh, we could've crushed together ... I feel like we would've gotten along. Yeah. I feel like we would've played a lot of video games, uh, while s- sitting next to each other rather than- Yeah ... engaging deeply. Parallel play? Yeah. [laughs]
- 4:32 – 5:38
A new relationship lens: allies, pals, and companions
- AGAdam Grant
Gosh. There's so many, there's so many things already that I, I wanna pull as threads, but one, one thing is I have been sort of increasingly struck by the fact that talking about people as, as friends, colleagues, or family isn't that helpful determinant of the, the kind of connection we have. And so-
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm
- AGAdam Grant
... I've been working for the past few years on an alternate language which sort of treats people as, well, at least treats strong connections as allies, pals, or companions.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
And I think of allies as people who share your goals, pals as people who share your interests, and companions as people who share your values.
- SPSpeaker
Hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
And I wanted to react to the goofing through that lens. But John, first, like, what are you and Hank? Are you allies, pals, companions? Does it go both ways? Are you all of the above?
- SPSpeaker
We're a little bit all of the above, but we're companions first. Like, we share values first above everything else, and hopefully are guided by those values such that we are f- we are a- able to be fellow travelers and colleagues and friends. But it, I think it's grounded in shared values, so I think we're companions first. We do have some shared interests, although we have very different interests in a lot of ways. You know-
- 5:38 – 8:10
Colleagues, algorithms, and choosing what you “worship”
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... Hank is much more interested in science. I'm much more interested in, in history and, and literature, and, and that kind of thing. And then I, I do think that we have an allyship as well, but- I think it begins with companionship. You know, I use the word colleagues a lot, uh, which is a bit of a shared economic interest, I feel like. Mm-hmm. Uh, so, so I talk about other YouTubers often as colleagues 'cause this is the nicest word I can come up with for talking about them. [laughs] Yeah. Uh, because, because I'm like, I get it, like you and I share problems with the systems of, you know, Internet content. We share, uh, beefs with YouTube, we share, uh, struggles with audience and, and struggles with getting our content to, to be selected by an algorithm. But, like, boy, do I not see these people as shared values- Colleagues ... oftentimes. Right. So this is interesting 'cause I, I, in part I think that you can have these, like, shared... You can kind of have these things with people you don't even really like. But I, I, I do think there's a, there's an element of almost forced allyship between YouTubers. Mm-hmm. Uh-huh. Right? You have this common enemy, which is the algorithm. [laughs] Yeah. Our friends. And to your point, even if you don't like them- You know ... you're kind of in the same boat against it. Mm-hmm. Yep. I have found it helpful to sort my relationships into these categories as well, because the places where I have a shared interest and the places where I have shared values are very different. And I find that I am most deeply drawn to that sense of companionship, that sense of, like, fellow traveling down a road of, of certain values, of, of what we're gonna worship, essentially. Are we gonna worship- Mm ... money? Are we gonna worship celebrity? Are we gonna worship power? Like, what, what are we gonna follow down toward? And- Do you think you get to choose those things, John? Like- Yes, I do. Yeah. And I know that you don't, but I think you're wrong. I do, I do. Well, you have to be- And I think that choosing them is hard ... very intentional about choosing it. Yeah. Uh, because there is a default form of worship, right? Which is, like, you fly to the light of power and you're like- Mm ... a moth and you don't know why, but you're flying to the light. Like, I, I met with a senator once and I was like, "Oh, this guy is literally just flying to the light of power." Like, he is- Yeah ... just doing what will ensure that he can keep power at all costs because he likes having it and he doesn't wanna lose it. And it's that simple. So one of the things that I, I may be over-inferring, but that I was intrigued by that, that just bubbled up from the two of you is, you know, we, we all need allies, pals,
- 8:10 – 11:12
Did they “win the sibling lottery,” or build it on purpose?
- SPSpeaker
and companions in our lives, and some of us are lucky to have people who check all those boxes. I would say I know a fair number of authors and also creators who are kind of annoyed that you both won the sibling lottery. Like, you- [laughs] ... you just lucked into a sibling who is your perfect ready-made ally, pal, and companion for- Yep ... any project you could wanna do, any interest you might have, any, you know, emotional challenge you might run into. Like, I'm a little skeptical of that assumption. [laughs] And I would like to believe that this did not just happen automatically. You've actually had to work to, to build your vibe on each of these wavelengths, and I would love to know if I'm right or wrong. I think that we have worked to build it, but I think that we've worked to build it in part because we sort of saw it as an u- like an unassailed good. Like, a, like I don't really question that John has my best interest at heart ever, and that's, that's such a valuable thing to have in a collaborator. Never. Never have I felt that way. Never have I felt- Yep ... that he was jealous of, of a success that I have. Never have I been jealous of a success that he had. It's always felt like we've been sharing these things. And, like, in part I think that we're really lucky that we don't strive for the exact same kind of success. Like, if we were both, like, young adult novelists at the same time, you know, at that, at that period of our lives and, like, we had both published our first young adult novel at the same time, and one of them was Looking for Alaska and one of them was, like, whatever crap I would've written, then I w- th- then, like, that would've been really hard for me. But we've always sort of been going for different successes, and so, like, deep down at the bottom of it, it's always felt like the brotherhood was the most important thing to protect of the things that we were doing. And if, like- Yeah ... we messed that up, then it w- none of it would've been worth it. I think that's the key insight, is that we, we have had to work on it, but we've worked on it from the perspective of, like, our brotherhood is more important than any of our work, is more important than any of our collaborations. We don't maintain our relationship so that we can collaborate. We collaborate so that we can maintain our relationship. That's how it started, yeah. For us, for us, you know, finding shared projects is an important part of how we stay close. Like, Hank and I weren't very close. I went to boarding school when Hank was 11, so I didn't know Hank as an adolescent or an adult, and we weren't that close until we started making YouTube videos together on Vlogbrothers. And it's really only since then, um, which is the last 20 years of our lives, that we've been so close. And I think partly because we weren't always close, it has always felt very worth it to do the work of being close because we see, you know, rich and meaningful and giving it is in our lives to have that relationship. Okay. So I love how, Hank, you were just kind of casually anticipating the self-evaluation maintenance theory of relationships- [laughs] ... which says that if you're both pursuing the exact same goal at the exact same time, then, I mean, you're more likely to envy each other in ways that might be a little bit uncomfortable. And I think in particular, the fact that you weren't comparing yourselves to each other.
- 11:12 – 13:21
Avoiding rivalry, refusing to track wins—and a detour into giraffe clickbait
- SPSpeaker
Um, you know, Hank, you're not aspiring to be a YA novelist per se. John, you're not aspiring to be a [laughs] a science communicator or a sci-fi writer. Right. That, it seems like that created healthy complementarity for you, where you didn't have to compete as much. Yeah. Although even when we have been in somewhat direct competition, like I make a YouTube video every Tuesday, Hank makes one every Friday on the same YouTube channel. We have the same number of subscribers. Like, it would be easy to compete on who gets more views. I have no idea who gets more views. [laughs] I have no, I have no idea who gets more views. I don't, I have no idea- I don't wanna know either. Yeah ... who has more lifetime views. Yeah. So, so even when we are competitive w- or, or, like, could be competitive, we just choose not to frame it that way. We choose not to frame it as, like, who is the better brother or who is the favorite brother of the, on the Internet or whatever. Instead we frame it around Uh, how are we doing- Yeah ... as a unit? It's so interesting, 'cause I don't, like, it's not that I don't wanna know, it's that I ha- it's that it's never occurred to me to check. No, I- Or it's like- I mean, I don't wanna know, but it also has never occurred to me to check ... right, like it, it wouldn't ma- it wouldn't mean anything to me. You know? It wouldn't be like, "Ah, that makes sense. That, like, a- a- all, after all this time, of course." 'Ca- 'cause like- Right ... in part it's like who made the giraffe sex video in 2012? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know? [laughs] Yeah, we've got a couple of videos that have ju- like, you know, like [laughs] mostly people who are showing up to watch the giraffe sex video, in which we discuss the, like- Mating habits of a giraffe. Yeah ... what they, what they thought they were gonna get was just a video of giraffes having sex. And, uh, so most of them didn't watch the video anyway. [laughs] They just clicked on it and watched a video. Yeah. Most of, instead they got kind of a science lesson- Yeah ... on giraffe mating. Yeah. [laughs] It's fascinating, but- Wasn't as exciting as they thought. [laughs] They were t- they were clickbaited, Hank. We clickbaited them. We did. We did. [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Uh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna try not to revert that image on this conversation.
- SPSpeaker
Poor Adam is trying to keep, poor Adam is trying to keep this on the rails and it's not easy. Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
We can tell you-
- SPSpeaker
No, no, I'm just-
- AGAdam Grant
... about giraffe sex. [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
Well, there, I mean, there are questions about how giraffes vibe that could be brought into the conversation. [laughs] Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, boy.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. Oh, I don't wanna go there. Oh, man. Way, it's way more intense than you'd think. You don't wanna do that. You don't wanna go there.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
It's way b- it's way worse than you think.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
I'm adding it to the list of things I did not know I didn't wanna know. Okay.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Check.
- 13:21 – 17:33
Different default wavelengths—and how language opens “exploration space”
- AGAdam Grant
Okay, another, another complementarity that I think is interesting that I think both of you alluded to, it sounds to me like, Hank, it's more important for you to connect with people on a pal wavelength. The, the goofiness you described.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
And John, it's more critical for you to have the companionship, the sense of care and affection.
- SPSpeaker
Mm. Yep.
- AGAdam Grant
True or false?
- SPSpeaker
I mean, it's 100% true for me. I think it's true for Hank as well. Yeah, yeah. I'm interested to see Hank's response. But I think I, I would much prefer to have similar values with, with someone than have, you know, a shared interest in AFC Wimbledon or whatever. Mm.
- AGAdam Grant
You love the goofs.
- SPSpeaker
I think that shared values are, are important. But yeah, I mean, like, the way that you said it, I was like, "100% yeah, I wanna have a good time." I wanna, like, be enjoying this time that I'm spending with people. You know, I'd rather, I'd rather do karaoke than go to a lecture, you know? Oh, I mean, the exact opposite. [laughs] I would rather go to all lectures for the rest of all t-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
I would rather, I'd rather be in an eternity of lectures than go to karaoke once. [laughs] I mean, every time I've ever done karaoke, I've thought to myself, except for once, I've thought to myself, "I'm not drunk enough for this." [laughs] And then one time I thought, "I am exactly drunk enough for this."
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
John, do you w- do you wanna know the worst, you're gonna cringe so hard at this story. Yeah. I went to karaoke recently and, uh, the karaoke machine was broken- Oh, God ... and the, and the guy who was running the karaoke is a friend of mine, and then he's, like, tech supporting himself, and he w- he was like, "I don't know what to do in this situation." [laughs] And he's like, "You know, the mic's up here if anybody wants it." And so I went up and I sang Smash Mouth's All Star- A cappella? ... to no, to no backing track. [laughs] Oh, oh. Just an a cappella All Star? Uh-huh. The whole thing. You, I would have to be in an altered state of- Yeah. [laughs] ... profound, profound degree in order to do that. And I know the, I mean, I know the song. It's not that I don't know the song. I know it well. Yeah. I think it's in my range. I just, I w- I wouldn't wanna do that. Oh, yeah, that is a, that is a great thing about Smash Mouth, is they're not doing anything particularly vo- It's in everybody's range. [laughs] ... vocally difficult. [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
So this is leading me to, I guess, a, a curiosity. We've already established something that I failed to capture in, in the book, which is, like, we have different preferences for what-
- SPSpeaker
Mm
- AGAdam Grant
... wavelengths we wanna connect with people on. And I, I, I actually think my go-to wavelength is to be allies with people. I, I wanna know-
- SPSpeaker
Mm
- AGAdam Grant
... how can I help you solve a problem? I wanna figure out-
- SPSpeaker
You do
- AGAdam Grant
... what goals do we share and, and how can we accomplish them together, or at least elevate each other's ability to succeed? And then, you know, I'd love to have some fun and maybe a little bit em- of emotional support along the way, but that's, that's optional.
- SPSpeaker
Right.
- AGAdam Grant
So we are seeking three different kinds of connection by default, the three of us.
- SPSpeaker
Right. Yeah. But the three of us combined- That's crazy ... are an incredible person. Um- Well... [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, come on.
- SPSpeaker
He, Adam, don't let him get away with that. No, I'm just kidding. I think that's really interesting.
- AGAdam Grant
We might be a whole person combined.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
The three of us.
- SPSpeaker
We're one whole person. I, I see that so much in you, Adam, that the way you wanna connect with people is by helping them solve problems, and by, and by asking for help when you need it. And it's so interesting to be able to construct it that way, because, uh, not having had that structure or that language before, I could never have seen that before. You give new meanings to existing words a lot of times in a way that allows you to frame something that you maybe didn't have form for before. Like, the interesting thing about language to me is without it, we can't necessarily have form for some of the stuff that we go through. Mm-hmm. And so giving something like that language is very powerful. Yeah, it's almost like it, it, it opens up s- exploration space. Mm-hmm. So there's like, like somebody needs to, like, bushwhack through the f- the first layer of brambles in order for, for those conversations to even happen. Yeah. And then once you're in there, it's like, oh, look at all of this, uh, introspection or, you know, exploration we can do here now that we have found this new spot. Mm-hmm. And language does, does that. And if we don't have the language for things, it can be harder to get into them.
- AGAdam Grant
Well, this is-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- 17:33 – 24:50
“Anything mentionable is manageable” and the value of shared ‘third things’
- AGAdam Grant
Done. I, um, you know, it's, it, it's funny because you're making me rethink something that I, I felt pretty strongly about for really the past few years, which is the best connections happen when we're on the same wavelength. And so Hank, you and I would hit it off if we both wanted to be pals, and, you know, we discovered we wanted to geek out on the same kinda science. John, you and I would click if, you know, we both wanted to be companions and we called each other up in, you know, in dark moments. But- It's kinda interesting to me, like thinking about how strong your vibe is, that, you know, Hank is looking for more of a pal, John is looking for more of a companion. Is that a kind of complementarity, that each of you provides something different in the relationship?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. I mean, John is an amazing companion. Like, and it's not like I don't need one sometimes. [laughs] And Hank in turn is an amazing pal, and it's not like I don't need one sometimes. You know, I was just saying that like I, I've seen you, Adam, connect with people through wanting to help them through something, shared goals, solving problems, et cetera. It's something I've really admired about you. It's something I really think is cool that I would like to bring more of to my own life. So I think- Yeah ... the part of it that's maybe complementary is the part that's, that thinks like, "Oh, that's not a sort of natural strength or point of connection for me, but it would be cool if it were. It would be cool if I could develop that."
- AGAdam Grant
Well, thank you. I, I appreciate that. And you know, I have, I have the same reaction [laughs] in reverse, which is I, I, I watch John, the way that you, I think more than anything else, you describe things that people think are, you know, are idiosyncratic or kind of unique to them, and you make them universal, but you do it through showing vulnerability that only-
- SPSpeaker
Mm
- AGAdam Grant
... somebody who understands what companionship is like to give and receive would do. And I think that that, that's a skill, and it's something I [laughs] normally shy away from and think, "I don't wanna, I don't wanna be part of that. It could be too heavy. It might be too personal. You know, let's try to do something more productive or keep it a little lighter." And-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- AGAdam Grant
... I've realized I have under-invested in saying, "No." [laughs] Like, some of these things are really hard, and that doesn't mean we can't talk about them.
- SPSpeaker
Right. Mm-hmm. As the great Mr. Rogers put it, anything mentionable is manageable.
- AGAdam Grant
Ooh, I like that. I like that better than the, the standard psychologist reframe, name it to tame it.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. Oh, that's pretty good. That's good, but it's not, it's not, you can't always tame it, but you can manage it. Uh-huh. Name it to tame it feels very, like, um, a little too, a little too... Too easy. Little too easy. Little too easy. I can, I, I can name all kinds of things that a- that ain't tame. A little too organizational psychologist. [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Guilty as charged.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Okay, another, uh, another dynamic that I have to ask you about. So one of my favorite organizational psychologists, Amy Wrzesniewski, told me once that a recipe for a great marriage is both people believing that they got the better deal.
- SPSpeaker
Hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
Like each person thinking-
- SPSpeaker
Hmm
- AGAdam Grant
... I'm the lucky one.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
And I think that's true in all kinds of relationships, and I think you both feel that way about your relationship.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs] It's- Yeah ... it's funny because, like, you can see it purely through the lens of, like, the, the one that's riding the tail of the other one's comet, as John and I have put it at various times in our careers. So like certainly for a, for a long time I was [laughs] riding the tail of... 'Cause of course I, like John had the number one selling book in America for, for a solid couple years or something like that, especially if you don't count Harry Potter. And, uh, and, and- Even if you do, not to brag. [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
Sorry. Didn't mean to interrupt you there. [laughs] Just quick fact check. [laughs] And I, I appreciate that. [laughs] And-
- AGAdam Grant
I love a real time fact check.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs] And, uh, a- and, and so like it was weird to be, like, the guy who had a YouTube channel with John Green, but like we never really thought of it that way. I remember I was on the streets of Philadelphia coming home from a drug store after a, after an event, and, uh, I just heard someone from across the, across the street go, "Hank Green." [laughs] And I was like, "Han- yes, hello. It is I."
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
And I, I, and so I, I, I feel like even in that time I was the tail to your comet, but I think it's essential for us to be able to see it that way, to view each other as the lucky one. I mean, I definitely think I'm the lucky one, so much so that it's hard for me to imagine that you think that you're the lucky one. Hmm. Yeah. So yeah, I, I think that's true.
- AGAdam Grant
I think you're both very lucky.
- SPSpeaker
I don't think that Katherine thinks that- She's the lucky one? ... that she's the lucky one. [laughs] Yeah. I don't think Sarah thinks that. [laughs] I was, it's funny, like when you said that's the recipe for a good marriage, like a cold shiver went through my body. [laughs] I was like, we're only, we're only 22 years in, like what's, what's coming for me? [laughs] Because Sa- there's no way S- if, if Sarah thinks she's the lucky one she's bonkers. [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
That was a conjecture, not a statement of fact.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. Yeah.
- 24:50 – 28:38
How they handle conflict: VidCon, ownership, and value-grounded decisions
- AGAdam Grant
So I wanna hear a little bit about the, the lesser-known rituals that keep your brotherhood strong. I mean, just the idea of, you know, originally making videos to communicate with each other was novel at the time.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
And obviously it played a, a role in the genesis of your relationship. I, I'd love to hear you talk a little bit about that. But also, yeah, I'm just, I'm just thinking about all of the, the inside jokes, the, [laughs] the secret languages that close siblings develop. Like, do you have rituals for how to have a difficult conversation or give each other feedback or have conflict? Like, what are, what are the things that only the two of you do that are important to your relationship?
- SPSpeaker
When it comes to things like having a difficult conversation, we don't really have any rituals around it. We don't have a lot of conflict, or we diffuse it very easily and very quickly, and we diffuse it primarily by believing the other person when they tell you how they feel. And like there were times when our allyship wasn't perfect, you know, like where I wanted something from, from my career that Hank didn't want. Especially like we used to own VidCon, this big, uh, YouTube conference. It was the, it was a huge conference, and it was extremely- Still is, yeah ... stressful for me to own because I was like, at any moment something terrible could happen at this conference and it will be my fault. Yeah, people- And- ... people would say things like, "Well, just like think like what's the worst thing that could happen?" And I'd be like- And the worst thing that could happen was terrible. Yeah, very bad. Like I, I'm responsible for security at an event with tens of thousands of people. Imagine what's the worst thing that could happen. Like a bunch of- All kinds of horrible things could happen ... really terrible things. People could die. Yes. Yeah. Um, yeah. So this was always on my mind, weighed very heavily on my mind. Weighed less heavily on Hank's mind. Hank's mind generally things weigh less heavily, which is a m- [laughs] Mixed blessing ... not everything, but a m- it's a mixed blessing. [laughs] Yes, exactly. [laughs] It's a compli- it's a complicated blessing. It's good to be reckless sometimes. Sometimes. But I remember like for years before we sold VidCon, I wanted to sell VidCon. Yeah. And there was a little bit of like lack of allyship there, where like we were just misaligned on what we wanted out of that experience of owning this conference. Yeah, I mean, the VidCon thing was so interesting because the way that John communicated his strong, like disinterest in continuing to own VidCon was, one, he told me that, and he explained it, and then every two or three months he would say, "This would be a lot easier if we just had money instead of a conference. If somebody would give us a bunch of money to solve our biggest problem." And- We would win twice. [laughs] It would be a huge- In addition to not owning VidCon- Yeah ... we would have money. And like, but the, the reason why we didn't then sell VidCon, even though John was an owner and he was involved in it, is because like it was primarily my work. Yeah. And so, y- you know, when we have these conflicts, the, the question becomes like, okay, who wins? And the, the answer to that question is whose thing is it? Um, unless it's Vlogbrothers, in which case it's our thing equally. It's 100% our thing. And so in, in that situation, the answer to that question is, uh, w- which decision would be best for the audience, for the community, for, for this project? Right. And you know, we, you can disagree about that, but like ultimately the s- the, the less risky choices t- tend to be the right choice in that situation. Well, you can disagree about it, but you, you're not disagreeing about what you want, you're disagreeing about how to get there. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So you're, you're not disagreeing about, well, the goal is to do what's best for the community, for the viewership, for all that stuff. And so if you're grounded in that, if you're grounded in that, that shared value, the disagreements actually don't feel that high stakes because you're not fighting over values. Yeah. You're not fighting over, you know, whether or not this is gonna be more important or that's gonna be more important. You agree about that.
- 28:38 – 29:56
A portable lesson for siblings: build a shared creative project
- AGAdam Grant
Do you, uh, I, I'm just wondering about the portability of this 20-year Vlogbrothers project.
- SPSpeaker
Hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
Would you recommend that siblings should do it even if they don't have an audience?
- SPSpeaker
100%.
- AGAdam Grant
Okay, and tell me what that would look like.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, it doesn't have to be this thing. Yeah. It doesn't have to be this thing. It can be a podcast, it can be, you know, you do the rough cut of the woodworking and I do the fine work. It can be anything. Um, but I, I, I do think that having a shared creative project, whether it's an exquisite corpse painting or a, a podcast, is hugely valuable in a relationship. Mm-hmm. It gives you a site of joint enrapture. It gives you something to care about together. It also allows you to root for the other person, like to enjoy the other person's work and appreciate their work. If everybody stopped watching Vlogbrothers tomorrow, Hank and I would stop making Vlogbrothers, but we wouldn't stop doing stuff together. Yeah, for sure.
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, I love that. It's been such a pleasure and a privilege to have you on. I cannot think of a vibe that I enjoy more-
- SPSpeaker
Aw
- AGAdam Grant
... or that the world can learn more from than yours. And I still want it, but I think the next best thing is to be a third party to it and get to observe it and soak it up a little bit.
- SPSpeaker
That's nice to say. Oh, thank you, Adam. It's been a pleasure.
- 29:56 – 32:23
Switching families: Jim and Julia Curtis and the story of the Fini flight
- AGAdam Grant
Well, Julia and Jim, thank you for joining me. It's, it's such a joy to get to talk to you after I've seen you everywhere on the internet.
- JCJim Curtis
It was a surprise to us what happened on the internet. [laughs]
- JCJulia Curtis
And thanks for having us too.
- JCJim Curtis
Yes.
- JCJulia Curtis
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
I mean, you're even sharing headphones. [laughs]
- JCJulia Curtis
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
One earphone each.
- JCJim Curtis
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
There's no clearer sign of a bond than that
- JCJim Curtis
[laughs] That's a bond.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- JCJulia Curtis
[laughs] Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
Two, two people who don't love each other will not share headphones ever.
- JCJulia Curtis
[laughs]
- JCJim Curtis
[laughs] Especially when they were in my ears before this.
- JCJulia Curtis
[laughs] We're using bleach. [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
I guess I would love to start with the, the story of your Fini flight. I know from being around pilots a little bit, I know Fini flights are a very big deal. I would love to f- find out kind of the backstory for how this one happened.
- JCJim Curtis
I was chief pilot at Southwest, and I always try to convince people to have it, have a Fini flight 'cause it's not just for you, it's for your family, too, and your friends 'cause you can invite people on board. So we get to set it up, uh, and get to fly with the first officer of our choosing. So I, that's why I decided to do my Fini flight with Julia. Well, that was the last time that I was on the 737.
- AGAdam Grant
Julia, did you know this was coming?
- JCJulia Curtis
Yeah, I mean, obviously I know his age, and when I started flying, that was the goal, to be able to fly with him and be able to do this flight with him. I think the importance of a Fini flight, too, is you're kind of just, like, closing out a chapter of your life with the people you want to have around for that moment.
- JCJim Curtis
A- and it was really touch and go being that I was retiring at age 65. Julia had just gotten hired in February, so a lot had to go and be put in place for that to happen. First of all, she had to perform well in training. If she didn't perform well in training, they could keep her back, and we knew the window was gonna be tight. We knew it was about a month. It just so happens Julia did great in training, and she got out, so I did get to fly the whole month of May with her, which was, it was a blast.
- AGAdam Grant
Wow. Oh, I love that. Hold one second. Asia, I'm hearing a little, like, a thumping noise in the background. I just wanna make sure.
- JCJim Curtis
That's, that's me.
- JCJulia Curtis
Yes.
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, it's a tapping.
- JCJulia Curtis
[laughs] Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
All, all right. We've got, we've got somebody who talks with his hands, and it may be Jim.
- JCJim Curtis
[laughs] It's me.
- JCJulia Curtis
He's on the radios when I'm flying with him talking with his hands. I'm like, "No one can see your hands. Why are you doing that?"
- 32:23 – 36:57
Father-daughter in the cockpit: feedback, mistakes, and reverse mentoring
- AGAdam Grant
I can only imagine. So tell me, I, I'd love to hear from each of you, like, what was it like to fly together, father-daughter, for that month?
- JCJim Curtis
Well, I, I'll start off with me. I actually, we had a conversation 'cause there is the father-daughter relationship, but then there's also the captain-first officer relationship. And so if I was going to critique her or give her advice, I knew that was, I wanted her to know it was coming more from the captain. But I also, like any first officer, you know, they make mistakes, as does the captain, and I have to rely on her, so if I'm making mistakes, so I also had to let her know, "Hey, if I'm doing something wrong, I'm not trying to trick you. You may not know this, but Dad does make a mistake every now and then. Doesn't happen [laughs] often." So she had to be comfortable for that month to step in and say, "Hey, you're 10 knots slow," and I had to take that critique from my daughter and adjust. So to me, it was awesome. It was a, a great dynamic.
- JCJulia Curtis
Yeah, for me, I think I've always, since I was born, seen him as a pilot, so, like, walking into the flight deck and him being in the left seat, it wasn't weird to see him there. I think that I was more nervous because I was like, I, you know, my dad has high expectations for me, and so I wanted to perform really well to, you know, show him I'm here, um, I'm not just your daughter, I'm an FO at this company, and I'm, I can do the job. So I was more nervous, I think, than I would be with, like, a normal captain. But then once we got flying, it was like, okay, this is just a normal flight. We work together really well. We have fun. Um, we're serious when we need to be serious. So it wasn't weird to see him in that seat, but I think once I sat there, I was like, oh, [laughs] we're here now. We're doing this.
- AGAdam Grant
Was it easier or harder to point out a mistake that he made than it would be, or than it was when you're flying with a captain who's not your dad?
- JCJulia Curtis
It was so much easier to point out his mistakes. I love doing it. [laughs]
- JCJim Curtis
[laughs]
- JCJulia Curtis
Also, I think when you're flying with someone else, um, you don't really know their personality or how they might take criticism, so you, you know, you have to word things the right way. I know my dad. I know he's not sensitive, and so I'd be like, "Hey, have you ever thought about this?" Like, w- [laughs] when he would make a mistake. But he didn't make too many mistakes, so I would be nitpicky with him just to find them. [laughs]
- JCJim Curtis
And it was actually a good dynamic because the younger FOs, they just know the, the technical aspect, using our electronic flight bag. Like, she was showing me on things, like, "Dad, do you know you can do this?" So I was learning from her, too, about the technology that I really wasn't up to date on. So that was a great thing to see her showing me as I'm also showing her how to fly the airplane, so it was a nice dynamic back and forth.
- AGAdam Grant
I love the reverse mentoring that's happening there.
- JCJim Curtis
Yeah, it's, it, you have to have a thick skin when you fly airplanes, uh, 'cause we all make mistakes, and the person who doesn't want to admit they make mistakes, that's the dangerous person.
- AGAdam Grant
I could not agree with that more strongly.
- JCJulia Curtis
Okay, so for the day, we show up to the airplane like we normally do. Um, the whole family's there. We board the flight, and I set up everything in the flight deck. We do our walk-arounds. We do our normal checklists and our briefings. And then we get out to tell the passengers. Normally, you get out there, you tell them weather, ride reports, let them know what's going on. And so in that moment, I told them what was going on this day, why this flight was so special to us, and gave them the whole lowdown of my dad, his, uh, aviation career, and what the flight was for the day, which was his Fini flight, his last flight as a Southwest Airlines pilot.
- AGAdam Grant
One of the thoughts that immediately jumped into my mind as I watched your video and read a little bit more about your story was, like, I watched the way that the two of you inter- you interacted, and well, I, I, I feel it now, too, but- I remember very vividly, like, when I first saw your video, thinking, "That's the kind of relationship that I wanna have with my daughters." And you know, it, it, I think it hit me personally at a meaningful time because we just sent our oldest to, to college earlier this month.
- JCJim Curtis
Congrats.
- AGAdam Grant
And, oh, no. [laughs] Don't leave us.
- JCJim Curtis
It'll be fine.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs] I'm really, I'm thrilled for you. I'm proud of you. But also-
- JCJim Curtis
Right
- AGAdam Grant
... y- like, you are, you are officially an adult now. And I, it's gotten me thinking a lot about what does, what does a great vibe look like between a father and a daughter? And I just, like I, I felt like I could see it written all over your faces. Julia, it was so clear how much you admire your dad and, like, what a g- great person he's been in your life. [laughs] Jim, clearly you were just beaming with pride that-
- JCJim Curtis
Yeah
- 36:57 – 40:27
How their bond was built: high expectations, honesty, autonomy, and support
- AGAdam Grant
... your daughter was first officer and had followed in your footsteps. And so I just looked at this as an unusually strong father-daughter bond, and I wanna know, how did you build it?
- JCJim Curtis
First of all, I wouldn't say it just was me. It was my wife, too. We had three kids, and I, we were, we were strict on them, strict in that we set pretty high expectations knowing that they wouldn't reach them all, but we did that. So I think at a young age we started, you know, letting them know that they can achieve what they want to achieve and, you know, we were always there. My wife and I used to laugh [laughs] because when people said, "Hey, you have really nice kids," we'd say, "Yeah, we learnt when they turned about 12 we should stop parenting them, 'cause the more we parent them, the more we screw them up." [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- JCJim Curtis
And, uh, and, and we let them start making decisions for themselves, and they always made good decisions. And then I also said, "You also wanna be happy in life," right? It's okay to pivot. A lot of, lot of kids go to schools now, and they feel like if they change a, their major or if they change their school, it's the worst thing, and it's not. It's okay to pivot in life.
- AGAdam Grant
Mm.
- JCJim Curtis
And if you're happy, you will do well and probably make money at it, if you're happy. And so I think all three of my kids, I think their, all their careers, they're right now in positions where they're gonna be happy doing what they're set up to do for the rest of their life.
- JCJulia Curtis
For me, I think there were two things that my dad would always say to me growing up that I always remember. And no matter what I was doing, he would say, "Put effort in." Whether it was a sport, a test, a instrument, he said, "I'm only gonna get mad at you if you don't put effort in." And the other thing he would say is that there's consequences for everything. So if you wanna do something, just know there'll be a consequence if it's the wrong choice. He was hard on me in sports, and I remember him saying to me one time, I thought he was being too hard on me, and I was like, "You're being too hard on me. Why are you being that hard on me?" And at that time, I wanted to play college soccer, and he said, "If you don't wanna play college soccer, let me know, and I'll tone it down. And that's fine with me if that's not your goal, but I'm pushing you right now because I want you to accomplish your goals." And so I think when I was younger, I didn't understand, but as I got older, he kind of explained to me, "Hey, this is why I'm hard on you. You know, I, I want you to achieve your goals, and if you have different goals, voice those to me, and we'll pivot." Um, and I think that has always stuck with me that, you know, he, he pushed me in the right ways. He didn't push me to do something I didn't wanna do, and I just had to communicate that with him.
- AGAdam Grant
He challenged you because he cared.
- JCJulia Curtis
Yes, exactly. And when you're young, it's a little bit frustrating 'cause you don't understand, but when you're older, you realize that, in general, people are tougher on you because they care. And if someone doesn't give you, you know, an honest answer or a, a real, real criticism, they might not care. And so it gave me perspective once I got a little older and could, I guess, realize that that's why he was doing it.
- AGAdam Grant
It is interesting. I think a lot of people overlook the point you're making that when someone takes the time to give you constructive criticism, it is a gesture of care. It's not always easy. It's not always comfortable. We wouldn't bother to do it unless it mattered, unless we care about the relationship, unless we care about the other person. And I think, well, I, I have to ask, because you left us hanging, Julia, so where did soccer end up? Did you play in college?
- JCJulia Curtis
Yeah, I ended up playing at UC Berkeley and graduating from Berkeley and started flying my senior year, but I did end up playing in college. [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Congratulations, belatedly. Um-
- JCJulia Curtis
[laughs] Go Bears. [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs] I can't say that. I'm a Wolverine.
- JCJulia Curtis
[laughs]
- 40:27 – 56:38
Family traditions and adult closeness: surprise travel, tough conversations, and practical tips
- AGAdam Grant
But I like it. Um, so one thing I've, I've been thinking about a lot as I study how people build bonds is I've become mildly obsessed with the rituals and routines that families create to nurture a bond, and I've been thinking a lot about family traditions. I would love to hear about some of the tr- the family traditions that, like, are most distinctive to the Curtis family that really brought you close together, maybe even some that you maintain to this day.
- JCJulia Curtis
You know, I could think of something that really bonded us growing up. My dad being a pilot, we all got to fly standby for other airlines. And so when sports were slowing down a little bit, we'd take time each year to go visit somewhere. And my dad refused to book flights because he was like, "We could go for free, so why am I gonna book flights?"
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- JCJulia Curtis
And so we, he would say, "Pack for a warm vacation. We'll go somewhere warm." And so we'd show up to the airport. We might miss, like, five or six flights before we got on one. And so the five of us, we'd be stuck together and, you know, we, we were in close spaces, traveling is stressful, we had no idea where we were going, and us five just had to figure it out. We'd, we'd argue it out. And so I think we learned how to fight and learned how to deal with each other, and then we knew when we got there we'd have a great time. So [laughs] I think that bonded us growing up.
- AGAdam Grant
That's such a great family tradition. And I, what I love about that tradition, I, I'm just, I'm just trying to break down as a psychologist the elements that I think make it so powerful. So tell me if this is accurate or not. I hear a few things in it. One is you're, you're really challenged to adapt together and to sort of figure it out together, and that's a, that's a force for bonding. I think, two, the element of surprise is something you share, and so you have that moment of delight of, "We don't know where we're going," and now we get the joy, the excitement, the thrill kind of all at once as a group. And then three, I think it lends itself to different people stepping up and sort of taking ownership over, "Well, what are we gonna do this time?" Like, it's not always, you know, the same parent planning the trip. ... or dictating the vacation, and, like, as different people get a say, you end up having different kinds of experiences together. I, I'm just thinking out loud, but, like, break down for me, why was that bonding for you?
- JCJulia Curtis
Yeah, I think you're exactly right. I think that on top of the excitement of getting to go and explore a new place together, which I think is bonding in itself, we had to learn how to deal with each other when we were tired, when we were hungry, when we didn't have a plan, and I think that learning how to deal with those emotions and still be civilized with [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- JCJulia Curtis
um, siblings, I think that helped us bond.
- AGAdam Grant
Jim, what do you think?
- JCJim Curtis
I, I think the same thing. I, we literally took 'em over to the airport and we said, "Okay, our plan is to get to Tahiti. If we don't get to Tahiti, we'll go down to Mexico." And then we ran into some of my wife's friends, and they said, "Hey, if you really get stuck, come to Utah." So we are all, all over the map. We've headed to Disneyland, and after three days, we had enough. I'm like, "You guys wanna go to Massachusetts? It's my friend's birthday party." And they're like, "Yeah, let's go." So we picked up, packed up, headed off to Massachusetts.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- JCJim Curtis
So we just like to travel like that, and I think if you're having a great time, you can stay, and if you're not having a great time, you can pack up. But it does take that mentality to do that.
- JCJulia Curtis
I think that-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- JCJulia Curtis
... for some of us, I think it had a l- we all had a lot of growth doing that travel, but now my sister does refuse to fly standby. She will be buying a ticket. [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- JCJim Curtis
[laughs]
- JCJulia Curtis
So I think there's different effects for all of us, but we definitely bonded. [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Understandable. Yeah, and I think, yeah, I'm also thinking about the, like, just the intensity of that experience together, right? That you're gonna scramble to figure it out. Like, you're, you're [laughs] you probably ran through more airports than the average family.
- JCJim Curtis
And everything has to fit in a bag this big-
- JCJulia Curtis
[laughs]
- JCJim Curtis
... 'cause you're not gonna check a bag. [laughs]
- JCJulia Curtis
Yeah, it's gotta be a carry on. [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, that makes sense. Love it. Okay, so I wanna, I wanna talk a little bit about the evolution of your, your relationship. So Julia, when did you decide you wanted to be a pilot, and what role did your dad play in that?
- JCJulia Curtis
Since I was little, I always had the idea in my head. He took me in the simulator at Travis Air Force Base when I was really little, and I thought it was the coolest experience. And I had never heard him, a day in my life, complain about work, so it was like, "His job must be pretty good." Um, but he was always like, "Go get your degree, go play soccer, and then you'll figure it out." And so at the end of my senior year was when I f- took my first flight, which is called a discovery flight. But it was funny 'cause he didn't wanna be involved again because he wanted it to be my path, and he didn't want me to do it because of him. So he set me up with other mentors who guided me through the beginning stages of flying, and then I think once I was hooked, he kind of took a little bit more of that role. But just seeing how happy he was and seeing how much he was around and how much he loved his job made me always wanna do it.
- AGAdam Grant
Wow.
- JCJim Curtis
And I look at it, so I, I talked about my father earlier, and I think one of his best attributes is when I was thinking about going into the military, we were not a military family. He would always give me 10 reasons why I should do it, 10 reasons why I shouldn't do it, and then he would say, "Jim, it's your life. You have to make that decision." So when people said, "Boy, are you gonna push it? Do you love it?" I always said, "You know what? I'm happy if she's happy. That's what I really want, is for her to be happy, but it has to be a decision she makes."
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, that, I mean, that, I would love for more people both to have that experience, but also to have that attitude. All the helicopter parents listening right now, what you really wanna do is you wanna be a pilot parent like Jim. [laughs]
- JCJulia Curtis
[laughs] That's a good one.
- AGAdam Grant
It's, it's, I couldn't resist. I'm sorry.
Episode duration: 56:38
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Transcript of episode 9NtSF9nDy-s
