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Re:Thinking with Adam GrantHow to disagree better with Utah Governor Spencer Cox
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EVERY SPOKEN WORD
45 min read · 8,839 words- 0:00 – 1:13
Cox’s “hypocrisy disclaimer” and the problem of political exhaustion
- SCSpencer Cox
Every single one of your listeners will be able to go and find some video of me somewhere of me not doing the things that I'm-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- SCSpencer Cox
... I'm asking people to do right now, okay? So I just wanna be very clear. I get this wrong-
- AGAdam Grant
This is the, uh-
- SCSpencer Cox
All of the time
- AGAdam Grant
... this is the hypocrisy disclaimer?
- SCSpencer Cox
Absolutely. This is the hypocrisy disclaimer. It's really hard to be, like, the disagree better guy when, when you screw up, because everybody lets you know. And so I just wanna say that right now. Um, even though I believe this, I, I don't always get it right, but I, but I'm trying. [upbeat music]
- AGAdam Grant
I think I'm one of the many people in this country who is just exhausted and disgusted with the polarization that exists in politics. And it seems to me that we should go back to the era of Lincoln and our team of rivals. That's where I wanna begin, Governor Cox.
- SCSpencer Cox
Well, that's, that's a heck of a place to begin, Adam. [laughs] Thank y- thank you for, for having me on.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- SCSpencer Cox
And, and I do feel that Americans are exhausted like you are, uh, that they're, they're tired of the polarization, they're desperate for something different, that there's a market failure in our politics right now. A- and the first party to, uh, to, to figure that out, and, uh, you know, maybe it won't be a party, but the first group to, to really figure that out, I think is gonna do very well in American politics in the years to come.
- 1:13 – 3:19
From hothead moments to checking the fight-or-flight response
- AGAdam Grant
I hope you're right. Well, I think a little personal color on, like, why, why this is an unlikely mantle for you to be assuming would be fun. So you've, you've described yourself as a hothead. You have disagreed worse many times. Give us a little bit of a flavor of the personal demons and maybe embarrassments that you're trying to transcend in this project.
- SCSpencer Cox
Oh, wow. Okay. So I, I grew up in a very small town in a rural part of the country. Uh, I grew up on a farm. And, uh, in small towns, we, uh, we all knew each other. Weren't afraid to fight when we, uh, when, when we had to. But, but yeah, I, I grew up with a little bit of an anger management problem. It's something that, that I still fight. Uh, this is, this is super embarrassing. I got thrown out of a flag football game that I was coaching my kids in. The ref and I, we, we knew each other very, very well. And, uh, there was a rules issue, and I was pretty sure I was right, and, uh, he was pretty sure that he was right, and, and I didn't, you know, I, I didn't curse at him or anything like that, but I was, uh, I was obnoxious and a little belligerent, and so he, he threw me out, and I deserved it. I apologized to him profusely, apologized to my team and the other team, uh, afterwards. We, we all had a good laugh, and, uh, a- and that was it. But those are, those are the types of, uh, of, of things that I struggle with. And certainly when you get into politics, it's so easy to, uh, instead of our better angels, as, as Lincoln would say, our, our worst demons come out. And, uh, when, when we argue, that fight or flight mode is a, is a real thing, right? E- especially in politics, and we, we get in a defensive posture. When someone comes up to me and is angry at me and starts to yell at me, I immediately go into a defensive posture, and, uh, I want to, uh, you know, I'm, I'm not gonna flight, so I'm gonna fight. And certainly it's something I have to check myself all the time, be curious, listen, kinda de-conflict, and then let's, let's engage and see if we can't engage in a, in a more positive manner. The outcomes are much better when I, when I do the latter, not when I-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- 3:19 – 3:58
Being persuadable: self-scrutiny, listening, and when minds actually change
- SCSpencer Cox
... when I fight. I've never heard anybody change their mind because they were, they were yelled at or, or demeaned or, um, or, or trashed. You know, that, if, if we're actually trying to persuade, and, and I, I, I ch- I, I really try to be persuadable. I, I do. I try to listen. I sit down, I take in all sides. Um, I try to push back on my, my own thoughts. I, I ask myself, "How did I come to believe that? Why do I believe it? Do I still believe it?" And 90-plus percent of the time I do. A- and so yeah, I know why I believe this, and I appreciate that. But I have changed my mind, and, and, uh, I, I'm, I'm grateful when other people change their minds, too.
- 3:58 – 4:54
Polarization as symptom: losing healthy tribes and replacing them with unhealthy ones
- AGAdam Grant
I wanna talk about the rethinking you've been doing first, because you've made a case in your book that polarization is actually not the root cause of our problems, and I found that surprising and also intriguing, and I'd love to hear more.
- SCSpencer Cox
Well, yeah, look, uh, again, polarization, I think, is, is a symptom of a, of a deeper problem, a, a core problem. And I'm not the first person to, uh, to, to write about this or research this, but as a social scientist, you know that we are, we are wired for connection, that we need other people, and we need tribes. We're, we're a tribalistic people. We always have been. And, uh, we're, we're losing those healthy tribes, those, those volunteer entities. People aren't joining bowling leagues. And, uh, we're replacing that with very, uh, I believe, unhealthy tribes, and, and I think that that's what's leading to this intense polarization that we're experiencing.
- AGAdam Grant
Wow. Okay. So you think we've, we've evolved [laughs] ... Not even evolved. You think we've defaulted to the wrong kind of tribalism?
- 4:54 – 5:50
Unity versus uniformity: contempt, moralized politics, and the collapse of coalition-building
- SCSpencer Cox
Yeah. That, uh, uh, that's exactly right. And I, I, I always, I always wanna point this out that when I, when I'm talking about kind of healthy politics and, and healthy tribalism, it does not mean that we all have to get along, that we all have to agree. Uh, as, uh, as the author Yuval Le- Levinas said, that u- unity is not believing the same thing. Unity is acting together. And the Constitution is the thing that, that forces us or, or gives us the framework for acting together, knowing we won't always get our way, but there's a path forward to at least getting some of what we want if we're willing to, uh, to build those coalitions. But the, this tribalism doesn't, doesn't allow for that. If politics becomes your religion, then everyone who disagrees with you is, is a heretic and evil. And, uh, i- if half the country is, is evil, then you start to treat them with contempt, which, which isn't just th- uh, I disagree with you. It means I despise you. And if I despise someone, it's, it's really hard to work together to, to solve a problem or get anything done.
- 5:50 – 9:52
Moderates as enemies and why the system was designed to force bigger coalitions
- AGAdam Grant
I think you're onto something really important here. I think what you're saying tracks with a long history of research on group polarization, where if you get a bunch of people who have roughly similar views together in a group to talk, they will generally come out more extreme ... than they did before because they're, they're essentially creating an echo chamber and a filter bubble together. And also, the way you gain status in a group of like-minded people is to be the exemplar in that group, which is often the most extreme voice. Tell me if you've already seen this paper. There's a brand-new paper in the Journal of Experimental Social Psychology, which I know you read for fun.
- SCSpencer Cox
All the time.
- AGAdam Grant
It's called Whoever Is Not With Me Is Against Me: The Moderate as Outgroup Effect. Have you caught this one?
- SCSpencer Cox
I have indeed, but please keep going.
- AGAdam Grant
Well, the core finding across five studies that were all pre-registered, thousands of people, is people who are partisan or extreme or polarized on a given issue perceive moderates as enemies. Not non-allies, but actually as opponents. And I'm like, "Okay, why is that happening, and when is it happening?" My read of, of the research is it happens when the issue is moralized, so you think your position is right and therefore others are wrong. And also, the quote-unquote other side is a threat to you, to your group, to the people you care about, or to your country. And you end up judging moderates for not hating your opponents and therefore they're opponents, too. So when you said contempt, I immediately thought of this paper and thought, "Okay, wait. So if somebody is a moderate and they're not opposed to my view, but they don't have contempt for the people I hate, I end up hating them and seeing them as part of the enemy group, too." What is that? That makes no sense to me as a social scientist or a human being.
- SCSpencer Cox
It, I, it may make no sense, but, but it's real. A- and I can sh- can assure you it's real. I've certainly felt it. [laughs] I've, uh, I've been the target of it, and it's so prevalent in, in our politics today. I'm really glad you brought up kind of the ingroup versus outgroup dynamics. And right now what we're seeing is a, a, a more tightly held ingroup dynamic, a, a smaller circle than, than we've, we've seen in politics in, in the United States for a long, long time. It's not that it's never happened, but it's certainly happening again. Going back to that constitutional order of things, the, uh, the Framers were really smart. They were students of government, yes, but they were more students of, uh, of human nature and, and who we are, why we make the decisions that we make. And they tried to build a, a government that would push back on our worst impulses. One of our worst impulses is this in versus outgroup dynamic. And so what, what, what they decided was, "Hey, we're gonna make it really hard to get anything done." First of all, Congress is supposed to be the most powerful branch, not the president, and it's gonna be really hard to get anything done in Congress because they're going to represent, again, a vast array, a very pluralistic society, very different. Even the original colonies, the original states, were very different. You know, Georgia was very different than Massachusetts, was very different than Virginia, was very different than, uh, Pennsylvania. And so if you wanna get anything done, you're going to have to expand to include more people. You're gonna have to build coalitions. You're gonna have to work together. You're only gonna get 80% of what you want instead of 100% of what you want. And, uh, we've completely lost the, the plot there.
- AGAdam Grant
I wanna, I wanna talk a little bit about the use of social science to improve America. I think in addition to being one of the most critical voices in our country for depolarization and, uh, decontemptification. [laughs] Not a word, but I'm gonna coin it.
- SCSpencer Cox
I like it. I like it.
- AGAdam Grant
I think you have been a force for, for getting people who disagree to disagree more respectfully. I think that's been a profound effect of your leadership, both in Utah and on the national stage, and I commend that. You've also, I think, more surreptitiously been a real champion of using evidence to inform your thinking, your policies, and I would love to know, how do we get more politicians to do that, and how has it changed your leadership?
- 9:52 – 11:43
Evidence-based policymaking and states as “laboratories of democracy”
- SCSpencer Cox
Yeah. Th- thank you, um, for, for those kind words, Adam. When I became governor, I challenged my team that we wanted to do evidence-based policymaking at every turn, and, and, and y- finding the right entities who can, who can provide us with the evidence to, to make those decisions. I don't know exactly the best way, um, to, to get o- other people to do this e- except that, uh, at least when it comes to governors, one of the things that's really cool about our Constitution that was, that was the, the most unique thing, dual sovereigns was very new. And what I mean by that is, is federalism, this idea that the most of the powers of governing would be left to the states. And, uh, we've gotten away from it a little bit, but the reason I love it is going back to that original conversation, California is so different from Utah, is so different from Florida, is, is so different from Michigan. And one of the re- ways to depolarize us is to allow states to have those differences. So the reason I say that is the, the, the states were meant to be laboratories of democracy, and if Utah's having more success than other states in certain areas, those states are gonna copy what we're doing, and I see it all the time. Like, we, governors really do work well together.
- AGAdam Grant
I love your vision of states as laboratories of democracy, and I think you're spot on that if you create social proof by demonstrating that you can accomplish things, then people will wanna know how you did it, and they won't just... I think in the case of governors, right, governors are actual leaders, unlike members of Congress. But I think one of the great things that comes out of then, you know, governors wanting to know, well, how are you able to do something like boosting literacy, is they get the specific solution, but then they also learn about your decision-making process. And that is, that social proof to me is one of the most compelling ways to, [chuckles] to spread evidence-based policymaking.
- 11:43 – 12:57
Energy cooperation across parties—and why good news doesn’t travel
- SCSpencer Cox
Well, I, I think you're exactly right, and, uh, we're seeing it. Uh, uh, you know, there's a couple other areas where, that, that may be of interest to your, your listeners. Um, when it comes to energy, uh, we, we know we need more energy production in this country. We're pretty desperate for it right now. Uh, of course, with the rise of AI and all of the issues that come with that, we're just consuming more, more energy. And how do we do that in a way that, uh, that, that protects the environment and that, that gives us the, uh, the best possible returns, right? Helps our economy not to slow down. And we're seeing that on, on all sides of the aisle as well. Um, Republicans and Democrats are working together. Utah's leading the nation with geothermal. Um, it, it always surprises people that Texas is leading the nation with solar power. Um, I feel this is where negative news sells so much better than, than positive news. But I, I, I feel bad that people don't get to see what, what governors see every day, where we actually do work together. We care about each other. We wanna be successful. We steal each other's i- ideas. And it, when, when we have these conversations, i- if you, if you came from another planet a- and just landed in the room, you would not know who the Republicans and the Democrats were in that room when we're talking about these major problems facing our country when, when the governors get together.
- AGAdam Grant
More of that, please.
- SCSpencer Cox
Yep.
- 12:57 – 15:48
Utah’s “pro-human AI” approach: a policy lab with guardrails and human-in-the-loop
- AGAdam Grant
Uh, you mentioned AI. I have to ask you, 'cause we have watched Dario from Anthropic put out a proposal to pace or slow the progress so that we don't get to recursive self-improvement and models that could hack major infrastructure or seed biochemical weapons or something else disastrous. We saw Dario put that proposal out. We saw Sam and Elon and Demis, among others, say, "I agree," which is almost unthinkable. I've heard a lot of people raise skepticism about that. They think that, you know, there's some level of attempt at regulat- regulatory capture happening there, or this is self-serving and wanting to, you know, actually signal that our technologies are so powerful that they're dangerous. Whatever that is, I, I have spent personal time with each of those AI pioneers. I, I imagine you have, too. I feel very confident they are genuinely scared. They are concerned about what could happen. And so, you know, to see that coalition of the who's who creating AI saying, "We need to put some guardrails. We need government to intervene. This needs to be an industry that is regulated, and it needs to be regulated now." We then saw Donald Trump say, "Nah, doesn't need to happen." How are you gonna change his mind, Governor?
- SCSpencer Cox
[laughs] Well, we're definitely gonna work on it. And, uh, this is something that we started on a couple years ago i- in Utah. Uh, we call it our pro-human AI approach. We set up an office of, of AI regulation, but it, but it wasn't just about regulation, 'cause again, I don't think government's good at regulating this stuff. We're so far behind any of this, and, and we knew that. Look, my legislature-
- AGAdam Grant
I was-
- SCSpencer Cox
No, go ahead.
- AGAdam Grant
Uh, no, no. I was, I was just gonna say, wait, did I just hear a Republican governor leading the way on AI regulation?
- SCSpencer Cox
[laughs] You did.
- AGAdam Grant
What, what, what planet am I on?
- SCSpencer Cox
And, and I'm here to tell you why, um, because I also think government is bad at this. And so, so, so what we did was we, we hired one of the, the, the top AI mathematicians out, out of a university in, in Utah, and, uh, we created a policy lab. And what, what happens is the, the, uh, the companies who are, who are releasing these tools, we bring them in and we, we actually work together side by side. And we put in guardrails. We work with the companies to make sure that we're not blocking other companies out. We don't want any regulatory capture. We want people to be able to succeed here. We actually wanna solve problems. So we've done it with AI chatbots for kids. Uh, we're working on it right now, uh, with, with, uh, i- in the medical fields and with prescriptions to make sure that, that these, uh, that these models are doing what they're intended to do, uh, that there is always a human in the loop, and that the computers and robots are serving us and not the other way around. Like, if these aren't going to be good for humans, then they should not exist.
- AGAdam Grant
So I wanna do the office hours portion of our conversation. This is the point where I give you the mic, and you get to ask me a question. What do you wanna know?
- 15:48 – 20:14
The “perception gap”: why partisans misjudge each other and how to close it
- SCSpencer Cox
Okay, so there's something that, that I, I write about, uh, i- in the book that's called the perception gap.
- AGAdam Grant
Duke Polarization Lab, yes.
- SCSpencer Cox
Yeah, so th- this concept, I'll, I'll try to explain it briefly, that, uh, if you ask Republicans what they believe, 1,000 Republicans, you ask 1,000 Democrats what they believe, and then you kinda plot that out, and you take the median or even the average Republican and the Democrat on 20 of the most polarizing issues in the country, we're actually not that far apart. It's pretty shocking how close together most Republicans and most Democrats are. And yet, when you ask a Republican what they think Democrats believe, and you ask Democrats what they think Republicans believe on the same issues, and then you plot those answers, we are a mile apart. My question to you is why is that, and, and how do we help each other understand that we're, we're actually not that crazy and we're not that far apart?
- AGAdam Grant
It's a great question. The, the first part of it is easier than the second. I think we've done a much better job explaining and unpacking it than we have changing it. But I think we have some interventions that can help, and you've, you're a poster child for several of them. I think just the why part. I think what's going on there is we have created a caricature of the other side that people believe, and we have social media that's amplifying each extreme. And so you are both hearing about and seeing the, the edge of the spectrum and believing that is actually the majority or the typical. And it doesn't help then that when you interact with people on those extremes, it only reinforces what you thought to begin with because you come in with that assumption, and then expectations are self-fulfilling prophecies. I think that what, what that has created is a world in which our affective polarization far exceeds our cognitive polarization. Uh, in other words, we have much more intense animosity toward the other side than we do division in what we want and believe. And I think then what that tells me is that our interventions have gotta start with the affect. What we need to do is actually change how people feel about the other side. It's not gonna do that much good to just highlight the perception gap and say, "Hey, actually, not all Republicans," or, "Not all Democrats." What we need to do is, is get people to have unexpectedly positive experiences with people that they would've stereotyped, and I think that's what a lot of your work is about. I think that it's not always enough to talk to the other side. I think what we've learned through now pr- about a century of evidence is collaborating with the other side works better, working to solve a common problem that we all agree is really important. I think AI could be the great unifier. I think Democrats and Republicans hate AI for very different reasons, but they all hate it. [laughs] Like, whether you don't want a data center in your backyard, whether you don't want AI to murder us, whether you don't want AI to think for us, I think that it's not hard for anybody to find a common enemy in, you know, in AI that's anti-human or neutral on humans as opposed to pro-human, as you put it. And so I would actually personally start there. I would say, "Look, we all have concern about some major threats to AI. It's threatening education and critical thinking, uh, and learning. It's threatening human creativity. It's threatening jobs." I think that's probably a big issue for your constituents, and we don't know what that's gonna look like yet, but we know some jobs are gonna be displaced, others are gonna be replaced, and we're concerned about that. We're concerned about its impact on the climate. Guess what? I don't care why you are worried about AI. You are worried about it. How are we gonna make sure that it's not bad for humans and bad for humanity? That, to me, is where we begin fighting affective polarization because we realize, wow, I think, Governor, this is the closest thing we've seen in my lifetime and yours to an alien invasion in more ways than one, and no responsible person lets a crisis go to waste, and I think this is our moment to act on it.
- SCSpencer Cox
I think you're exactly right. You know, I've, uh, for, for a long time I've, I've really been pushing against social media companies to hold them accountable for the harms that they've done to, to our kids, and artificial intelligence is that times 1,000, times a million. The potential out there, the way you captured that, I think is right. It should be, I hope, without having to have the, the worst-case scenario actually happen a- as a way to, to bring us together to, uh, to solve a common problem that isn't just an American problem but is a, a humanity problem.
- 20:14 – 22:13
Expanding the tent: leaving echo chambers, talking across lines, and serving together
- AGAdam Grant
So how do you think about getting people to accept that, okay, there's an extreme group, and w- I think this is true both on the left and the right, where they [laughs] look at moderates and say, "The fact that you are not on my side means you are either agreeing with the other side or you are failing to condemn the other side, and both of those things are immoral." Like, what do you say to get people to rethink that stance? How do you, how do you get them to expand the tent?
- SCSpencer Cox
Well, f- first of all, you, we have to make a conscious decision to get out of that echo chamber that you talked about, that bubble that we're in. It's never been easier to surround yourself with voices that are, are just like you. Confirmation bias is, is a powerful drug. So the first thing I, I ask people to do is to turn off social media, to pull yourself out of the algorithm, to get outside and, and actually engage with people. The, the second thing we have to do is spend time with people who are different than us. So I, I'm going to consciously, uh, listen. I, I'm gonna be curious. I, I'm gonna be a scientist. I'm gonna have some intellectual humility, and I'm gonna talk to someone, um, who, whom I disagree with, and I'm, I'm gonna listen to them. And so I encourage people all of the time to go have, uh, breakfast. Go, go grab, grab a coffee or, or a hot chocolate. Have a conversation with someone who is, who is very different than you are. Read a, a publication, a newspaper that has a, has a different bent than you are, you know, conservative leaning or, or left leaning so you're, you're kind of understanding how people are viewing the news. And, and then service is, is the best one I can recommend. When we're serving together, it's hard to hate people up close. When we're actually giving back and building up our community, it helps back to the, the Tocqueville, um, uh, uh, lessons that, that I, that I shared before. But, but it also helps us realize that, uh, that there are multitudes in, in each of us, that people aren't just their politics. Getting rid of that identity first is, is going to be so helpful, and we can break out of that, but it has to be a conscious decision by, by every single one of us.
- 22:13 – 27:47
When dialogue feels impossible: January 6 objections, relationship repair, and a “tell me more” script
- AGAdam Grant
So in theory, that makes a lot of sense to me. In practice, it's really challenging because [laughs] politics was different 20 years ago. So I, let me just disclose, I do not belong to a political party. I do not believe in political parties. I bo- [laughs] I vote on the basis of leadership character first and leadership competence second. And as somebody who studies leadership, I, I believe that's my responsibility, but I would prefer if America voted that way too, but I understand that parties help with building coalitions and getting things done. I probably have a bigger following on the left than the right, and when I make the kind of argument that you just made, what I hear back is, "But how can I possibly have a conversation with someone who saw January 6th and saw Donald Trump subvert democracy and voted for him again? That is just a non-starter for me. Like, how, how can I possibly wanna talk to you? And I'm the one who's supposed to take the initiative? No, thanks, Governor."
- SCSpencer Cox
Yeah. Yeah, I hear that all the time. That's the argument I hear the most from the left. From the right, what I, what I've traditionally heard the most is, "Oh, you, you just want me to go along to get along. You just want me to compromise my values. You just want us to hold hands and kumbaya and all, all get along." Al- although that is changing now. I'm s- I'm starting to hear a little more from the right the, the very argument that you just made. You know, how can I have a conversation with those people who tried to hide Joe Biden's, uh, m- mental lapses and, uh, a- and let, you know, millions of, of illegal immigrants cross the border? I, I'm, I'm starting to hear those things from, uh, from, from the right as well. So the first thing I, I like to ask is, "Okay, so how is that working out for you?" [laughs] Is, you know, w- uh, trust me, we've been, we've been doing the contempt thing in, uh, in, in our country now for several years. I- is it working? And, uh, I haven't had anybody yet tell me that, that yes, it's working. And number two, I, I, I, I really believe and, and encourage people to, to, to just, just try it. And what you find is that people are so much more complicated than, uh, than just the person that, that you, that you voted for. I, I will also just tell you, like, man, you, you'll just be a happier person. The, the most miserable people I know are the people who refuse to have any conversations with anyone who doesn't vote exactly the same way they are. You know, for, for a little while there, there was a, a, a trend of thought that people should be cutting off family members who, um, who had e- even political disagreements with them. That they would be healthier if they just cut those people out. And the more they've researched that, they're, they're finding that's, that's actually not the case, um, that you're, you're far better off not ending those relationships. While I talk, uh, quite often about how to kinda fix our country, the, the most important piece of the book to me is how to fix our personal relationships. We've seen about a four times increase in the number of people who have lost a family member or a close personal friend to politics just over the past 10 years. Used to be about 6% o- of, of Americans, now it's, it's about 25% have lost a, a family member or a close personal friend to politics. And, uh, I, I give some, some ideas, some pointers about how to, how to fix that, and how to actually have a conversation with someone. Ju- just a starter, and it's really easy, all you have to do is, is ask this one simple request, and that is, "Tell me more about why you feel this way." It's magical what happens. I, I use it all the time. Nine out of 10 times, it really changes everything. Somebody who's hostile to me, uh, it shows I care about them, it shows I'm interested in them, it shows I'm curious about them, and then I just listen. I don't listen to debate, I don't listen to argue. I just take a breath, and I let them tell me everything they want to tell me. Sometimes I have to ask them two or three times, but almost all the time, I find something we have in common. They believe that thing because they love their, their family, their community, their country. And then I can say, "You know, I, I love my country, too. I'm glad we have that in common." Most of the time then they'll, they'll let me also tell them why I believe what I believe. Not always, but, but most of the time we get a chance to do that. And, uh, it, it's, it's the only way. It, it's just the only way. I, I mean, again, not talking to half the country isn't going to solve any of the problems that the people listening to your podcast actually wanted to solve.
- AGAdam Grant
No. No, it won't. Although, I will say, I find myself wanting to tweak the question a little bit. Number one, oftentimes when people explain the reasoning behind their beliefs, they become more entrenched.
- SCSpencer Cox
Mm.
- AGAdam Grant
And sometimes more extreme, too, because they're essentially reinforcing their own confirmation bias. And now they're advocating for it and trying to persuade you of it. Whereas, when you ask them how, they're telling you more of a story.
- SCSpencer Cox
Mm.
- AGAdam Grant
And that, I think, goes to the second point, which is, they are rewinding the clock to a time when they didn't believe that, which subtly reminds them that their belief is malleable. It was formed at a particular point in time. It can be reformed at another point in time. And so I like to, to just, to get the same information with a different frame to say, "Okay, how did you arrive at that view? Like, tell me about the thought process and how it evolved. And then also, tell me what you think could happen in the next decade that could shift that view again."
- SCSpencer Cox
I, I love that, that piece of the question. But what I love about asking those questions is a lot of people really haven't thought about why they believe what they believe. Sometimes we're just repeating back, you know, what we heard on, uh, on cable news last night, or their favorite talking head said this thing, and they, they really haven't given it much thought. And so by asking the question and engaging, it really does cause them to, uh, to kinda pause and, and, and, and question what, what they do believe. It, it makes them much more
- 27:47 – 31:47
A story of de-escalation: LGBTQ advocate at a Republican convention and a surprising hug
- SCSpencer Cox
curious than they, they maybe were before. And, uh, can I share one that, that happened to a friend? It's, it's one-
- AGAdam Grant
Please
- SCSpencer Cox
... I, I share, share in the book. He was part of the, the LGBTQ leadership in the state of Utah. We're a very conservative state, uh, a super majority Republican state. And he was kind of a, you know, a, a, a traditional advocate, right? He would cherry-pick the worst thing anybody said, and then he would, uh, he would blast it out and fundraise off of it, and, uh, was, was very effective that way but, but not effective at all i- in getting anything done for the people he represented in, in our state. And, uh, uh, to, to his credit, he, he said, "You know, I, I w- actually wanna try to get something done. I wanna try to build coalitions. I wanna try to work with people. I, I have to work with people who disagree with me in Utah if I'm gonna have any chance." And so that's, that's exactly what he did. And, and he went to work. He stopped assuming the worst in people. He started giving grace even where maybe it, it wasn't worthy of, uh, of grace. And then he did something truly radical. I- it, he, he bought a, uh, a booth at the Republican state convention. So these are 4,000 delegates. Um, they tend to be the most, more passionate, uh, let, let's say, Republicans in the state. And, uh, first time this had ever happened. Many of them were very angry that, that he would do this, or that they would allow him to buy a booth even. Um, but he shows up and, and he's, he's having these conversations, and he's doing just what we said. You know, "Please tell, tell me more about w- why you feel this way." And, and at one point, a man came up who was very angry, um, uh, almost verging on, on, on violence. I mean, he was, he was screaming at them. And Troy Williams is, is the, the, the name of the, uh, o- of the, the advocate who went up to this man and he said, "Hey, I c- I can see you're really angry right now." And he said, "Do, do you mind just sharing with me why, why you feel so passionately about this?" And the man did and, and, and Troy listened and, uh, intently and, uh, and kept asking questions. And it turned out this man had had some family experiences that were, were deeply disconcerting and, and troubling to him. After that, Troy said, you know, "Can I share some of my, my thoughts with you?" And, uh, the man said, "Okay." And, and he listened. And Troy talked about growing up as a gay man in, in Utah, and how at times he felt welcomed, but other times he felt, uh, he felt ostracized and some of the, the, the rough experiences that he had had. And then he did something truly remarkable at, at the end of the, the conversation. He said, "Now I'm gonna give you the last word. Anything you wanna tell me." And this, this man who was Just angry at, at the beginning of this conversation. He paused for a second, and then he gave Troy a hug, and he apologized to him. Now, again, to, to, to your listeners who, who think I'm crazy and I'm never going to engage with those people, that lesson to me was just a game changer. Now, it's not always gonna happen that way, I get it, but it happened this time. And, and I'm, I'm just here to tell you, that, that guy that, that gave Troy the hug, he didn't go out and, and, and put a pride flag on his, on his Chevy truck, um, I'm, I'm, I'm confident. But the next time he had a conversation with someone, I truly believe it was different. I truly believe that, uh, that he will think differently about, uh, a- about the way he treats other people. He probably didn't go out and, and vote for Joe Biden. But in that instance, um, he, he made a, a tremendous difference, and that's ultimately how we, uh, how, how we made it 250 years and how we're gonna make it 250 more.
- AGAdam Grant
Governor, you are an odd poster child for better disagreement, for peace building.
- SCSpencer Cox
Look, I, I, I've been trying to do this work for a long time, and I've been trying to practice what I preach. Uh, I, I practiced it with Joe Biden. I tried to convince him to, uh, to pardon, uh, Donald Trump when there was an attempt on his life in, uh, in, in Pennsylvania. I felt very strongly that I needed to try to have a relationship with him and, uh, that I needed to try to work with him more closely. And I'm assuming that's what you're referring to in that, that I, I decided that, uh, that I would support him. And so he and I have had lots of conversations about disagreeing better, and, uh, it's, it's one area where we, uh, we have some significant disagreement.
- 31:47 – 39:37
Accountability vs. grace: Cox’s conversations about pardons and his support for Trump
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, I'll say. Ugh, wow, there's so much to react to there. There are two tracks I wanna go down here. One is accountability for people in power.
- SCSpencer Cox
Sure.
- AGAdam Grant
Let's start there, and then I wanna go to your experience of endorsing Trump after resisting that, that pressure for a long time. I understand the logic for presidential pardons, which is this could very quickly be a race to the bottom. We're gonna have, you know, two parties that are basically trying to throw the opposing party's candidate in jail, and, you know, we could just devolve into no one credible ever wanting to be president, or some, some version of that. And I wanna hear your, your case for it in a minute, but that, that's the standard case that I hear is we, we just need to take the high road here. I think that at least half of the country believes that politicians are free from accountability, and the more power you gain, the more you essentially are not responsible for your actions anymore. And that is one of the core problems with the country, and we are in a world now where we have reelected somebody who denied the results of a free and fair election and who tried to steal power. And if we do that, what do we have left? And if we're gonna pardon a candidate, what is left? Like, the Constitution is meaningless. I'm inclined to be on that side of the debate-
- SCSpencer Cox
Sure
- AGAdam Grant
... uh, based on my principles. I would love to hear your case for the other side, and can you convince me to rethink this and maybe our audience to rethink it too? I'm not sure that I want to or that I want them to, but I'd, I'd sure like to hear your most compelling argument.
- SCSpencer Cox
Yeah, so I'm not even gonna try to convince you to rethink that because I, I mean, I, I don't disagree with what you just stated, that politicians do need to be held more accountable, not less accountable. So l- let, let me just park that there and-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- SCSpencer Cox
... uh, and then, and then tell you the, the case that, that I was making. My concern was, a- and the concern I shared with, uh, with President Biden at the time, was where our, our country was, was headed, and that it was going to take something very powerful to try to change that narrative, to try to break this cycle of polarization and, and violence that we're experiencing, and that nothing that was happening was working, and that possibly a show of, uh, you know, a, a magnanimous, arguably virtuous, uh, show of support to kind of your mortal enemy, right? The, it's, it's, it's the love your enemy piece. That type of unconditional love for people who don't deserve our grace, arguably, can change the, the, the, the course of history. And, uh, my hope was that possibly something like that could, could reset. But that was my reasoning, and, uh, I, I'm, I doubt I convinced you or anybody else, and again, I'm not, not trying to because that, that is a very virtuous view that politicians need to be held more accountable.
- AGAdam Grant
So I'm, I'm glad we're on the same page about accountability. From a liberal's perspective, the most troubling part of your argument is that y- if you wanna stop a cycle of violence, you should probably intervene with the party that began it on January 6th and the president that incited it or egged it on. And [laughs] to reference more recent examples of violence against Republicans, when Republicans were the initial perpetrators of violence in the cycle feels a little bit backward, doesn't it?
- SCSpencer Cox
Well, look, every party can find a way to justify whatever it is they want to justify, uh, by pointing at the other side. It's pretty clear that we were headed this direction long before he ran for president. Like, w- we're really good at this. We've been good at it for a long time, and Donald Trump recognized that and, uh, and, and said, "Hey, okay, this is the, the direction we're going. I, I can do this." And, and it proved to be really successful. And so what I believe and what I'm seeing out there right now is that 70% of Americans are tired of what's happening and tired of the polarization right now, and they're hungry for something different. And that's the Madisonian nature o- of our politics. Like, if, if people don't like what is happening now, they don't like the divisiveness, then they'll choose something different if it's, if it's offered to them. Somebody's gonna have to be the, the bigger person or the, uh, the bigger party, uh, because there's enough to go around for all of us to just keep justifying our behavior, justifying our contempt. They deserve it. They deserve it. How could you vote for that person? And that's, uh, gonna lead to, uh, to more, more people shooting each other.
- AGAdam Grant
Well, I, I think that's, that's a case for hope. The idea that showing respect for your opponent and actually pitching an inspiring vision of the future can elicit support from voters. I think that is some of the best news I've heard for American politics in a long time. It makes me wonder, however you feel about Donald Trump It's hard to argue with the reality that he poured a giant tub of gasoline on the fire of contempt that was burning. It makes me wonder, do you regret supporting Donald Trump?
- SCSpencer Cox
So I, I get asked this question a lot, and, and, uh, I, the answer's no, I, I don't regret support. And, and, and let me explain why. Because I get to have these conversations [laughs] with, with him. Look, when, when Charlie Kirk was assassinated, uh, it was a- an unbelievably dark day, and a day i- in which, um, I, I think things could have gone in a lot of different directions, and I was very worried that, that they would. You know, I, I was hearing those calls for, uh, for civil war, for retribution, for re- revenge. And I had multiple conversations with the president. And, and you have to remember that, you know, Charlie was his friend, and because we had worked on that relationship, but we had managed to build a relationship with each other in which we could have some, some pretty hard conversations. And I'd made a, a, a pretty impassioned plea to people to, to lower the temperature, and, uh, he, he was asked that, that next day, you know, "Governor Cox is, is calling to, to lower the temperature. Do, do you support him?" And he said, "I, I, I support him 100%." And, uh, in that moment, I, I was, I was so very grateful for that. So I'm, I'm trying to practice again what I'm, what I'm preaching here, and do so with him, and so that's, uh, that, that's been a, a tremendously positive thing for me and for our state and, and ultimately for, for our country.
- AGAdam Grant
That makes sense to me. You shouldn't have to endorse him to be able to converse with him. You should be able to sit down with him and say, "As the governor of Utah, I wanna prevent Americans from murdering each other, and I need your support to do that." That should be a conversation that the President of the United States welcomes, regardless of whether the governor endorsed him or not.
- SCSpencer Cox
Sure. And, and that's fair. I, I should qualify. I don't think I needed to endorse him to have that conversation. And, and in fact, look, we, we had dinner with all of the governors, uh, last year at, uh, at, at the White House with the president, i- in which he said, "Hey, Democrats," none of whom endorsed him [laughs] , uh, "you can call me anytime, um, and I will take your call first. I want to, I want to have conversations." Those are things that don't get reported [laughs] ver- very often, but I, you are correct that I, I feel comfortable I could have had that conversation without having to endorse him.
- AGAdam Grant
Okay. That's, that's good to know. It, it makes the do you regret endorsing him question more complicated [laughs] then if, if the fact-
- SCSpencer Cox
That's fair
- AGAdam Grant
... you've been able to work together is one of the reasons that you don't regret it.
- SCSpencer Cox
Well, certainly, um, I, I've been able to work more closely with him because of that. There's, there's no question about it.
- AGAdam Grant
Got it. Okay. So, uh, some would call that a Faustian bargain, and others would say you're just doing your job.
- SCSpencer Cox
I'm definitely doing my job. And, and, and again, remember, I mean, this, underneath all of this, I, I'm elected to represent the people of Utah. That's what I do, and I'm here to help the people of Utah, not to go on my own crusades.
- 39:37 – 43:33
Lightning round: rethinking AI, rejecting contempt as an off-ramp, and a dinner-table of historical figures
- AGAdam Grant
Okay, let's go to a lightning round.
- SCSpencer Cox
Okay.
- AGAdam Grant
I'm gonna try to keep you to a word or a sentence at most.
- SCSpencer Cox
Whew. I'm a politician. Are you sure?
- AGAdam Grant
Uh, okay. First question is what is something you've rethought recently policy-wise?
- SCSpencer Cox
AI, for sure. It's AI. Yeah. I was pro, and now I'm very concerned.
- AGAdam Grant
I think a lot of us have, uh, [laughs] have experienced that rethinking moment. What is the worst advice when it comes to polarization off-ramps that you see given regularly?
- SCSpencer Cox
The worst advice I see given regularly is that it's, it's just not worth it. I hear it all the time. It's like, "We have to have contempt. Contempt actually gets things done." Um, but you, you won't solve long-term problems.
- AGAdam Grant
Agreed. I think the evidence is very clear on that. If you could enlist anyone from history to help us steer the ship of America in a better direction for a dinner party, who are you inviting? [laughs]
- SCSpencer Cox
That's the easiest question you've asked me, and, and it's, it's where we started. It's Abraham Lincoln. Uh, look, I, I actually think that so many of our problems right now are because he didn't get to finish his job, and if he had not been assassinated, I think our country would be a very different place.
- AGAdam Grant
Who else are you bringing to the table with him?
- SCSpencer Cox
Ooh. Who else? Uh, I, I, I'd probably bring George Washington with him [laughs] just because he's, he's the other guy that, uh, that, that found a way to rise above it all. One, one of the only people in history to ever willingly give up power when he, he didn't have to, and that's an example we could use again.
- AGAdam Grant
Any non-politicians you think would add value?
- SCSpencer Cox
Oh, uh, yeah. MLK would, uh, would definitely need to be back at the, the table, uh, Martin Luther King Jr. I mean, I would bring Bono in just 'cause I, I mean, he's not, he's not gone, but, uh, I, I need some, uh, I, I need, need somebody who's, uh, who, uh, who can sing for us, and, uh, I, I'm, I'm a big U2 fan, so let's, let's have Bono at the table. B- but, but mostly because if, if you haven't, I encourage people to read his book. The, the work that he did on behalf of Africa during the, uh, George W. Bush administration is a really great example of, uh, of ways that people with wildly different backgrounds and views of the world can work together to save millions of lives.
- AGAdam Grant
All right. Excellent. I, I think you're a role model, Governor Cox, for what we need more of in politics. I think we need people who are willing to dis- disagree without disrespect. I think we need people who are reasonable in the process they use to form their views, even if we don't always align on what those views are.
- SCSpencer Cox
Well, A- Adam, you're, you're very kind. Thank you. I, uh, I appreciate having the conversation. I've been looking forward this, uh, to this for, for a long time. I'm, I'm such a fan. Even when I disagree with you, um, you challenge me, and, uh, I, I think that's really healthy. It, it helps to strengthen my own positions when people challenge me. I, I think we can't, uh, we, we can't understand our own positions until we truly understand the, uh, the other side, and I'm, I'm always grateful for, for people who are willing to push back and, and help me, uh, rethink or, or, or think again about, uh, about the types of things that I care deeply about. I care deeply about this country. I, I love this place. I really do. We're so lucky to, uh, to live here. D- despite the, the problems we might have, it's not as bad as it has been before, and it can be better, and I still believe in us, this country, the things, this grand experiment we embarked on 250 years ago. And right now, Americans everywhere I go are changing course. They're logging off of social media. They're healing a relationship with a family member or, or a friend. They're supporting candidates that are, are working to, uh, to bring us together. And, uh, just like we've always done, America's gonna come out on top.
- AGAdam Grant
I hope you're right. Thank you for joining us.
- SCSpencer Cox
Thank you, Adam. [upbeat music]
Episode duration: 43:33
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Transcript of episode OtCIgGZqYJ4
