Re:Thinking with Adam GrantHow to improve your mental health with RaQuel Hopkins | ReThinking with Adam Grant | TED
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
25 min read · 4,640 words- 0:00 – 0:32
Don’t build your identity around your wounds
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
If you build your identity around your wounds, your worldviews are filtered through your wounds and never really through the growth that can happen. If it's all about your wounds, anything that I say to you is gonna be filtered through pain. And if it's always filtered through pain, it makes it very difficult for you to hear anything else. [upbeat music]
- AGAdam Grant
You've been fairly critical in this vein of people overusing terms like trauma and triggers.
- 0:32 – 2:01
Trauma language, personal responsibility, and the avoidance trap
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
The thing that gets me with trauma, trauma is subjective, and I know people don't like to hear that, but I'm also a big believer in personal responsibility and accountability. There are these life transitions that we have started to pathologize that has blurred the lines between what are normal life stressors that we tend to experience because it's just a part of the human experience versus these situations where they're truly harmful. And I think that when you can't make the distinction between a grow- like, growth and a real threat, you never really can get to a place to where your nervous system is truly regulated because you're always on guard. Or you have ... I always say, like, the, the biggest barrier to capacity, it isn't stress, it isn't adversity or even trauma, it's avoidance. Like, life doesn't shrink us. Our refusal to face life is what shrinks us.
- AGAdam Grant
Wow.
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
And I wish that more people understood that or were open to accepting that.
- AGAdam Grant
That's profound. That is, that is such a brilliant observation.
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
Thank you. I think I'm gonna eat up these [laughs] ... I think I'm gonna take the external validation that I'm getting here. [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
That is the message the world needs to hear. Avoidance, it is the biggest barrier to growth.
- 2:01 – 3:01
Capacity as a cycle: survival → stability → strength → stewardship
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
And I think it, it hides today, too. It hides in a lot of language, right? A lot of coping language. I was looking at, like, these developmental stages, like survival, and then it's stability, and then it's strength, and then it's, like, stewardship, right? And it's not a linear thing. It's, it's circular. We, we continue to go through those processes or those stages as we continue to be faced with different challenges or growth opportunities. And people wanna get out of survival, right? Most people wanna get out of survival. And then when we enter that stage of stability, it's like, "Woo, I'm okay," and we want to settle in that place. And when we settle in that place, we close ourselves out to growth or facing life as it is or not prepare when all of these external factors start presenting themselves to us. I like to say, um, I'm a fan of Brene- Brene Brown, and she's more about, like, getting you into the arena. I'm like, once you're in the arena, can you stay in the arena?
- 3:01 – 5:04
Why trigger warnings can reinforce avoidance
- AGAdam Grant
Yes. Yes. I wanna talk a little bit about avoidance. Trigger warnings, uh, have become j- I, I'm, I'm actually amazed at how popular they are. Uh, we see them all over TV. Uh, we see them on campus, um, at universities. And I think you've been appropriately critical of them. Uh, talk to me about what you don't like about that, 'cause it, it seems like it's an excuse to avoid if you see a trigger warning.
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
Well, one of the first thing that comes to my mind is life doesn't come with trigger warnings. That's the uncertainty that comes with building and expanding your capacity. When I see people introducing the, these trigger warnings, I think that sometimes the intent is to express vulnerability, to share, to create connection. But I also think that these trigger warnings or trauma labels, whatever we're referring to, it had also, it also has become a part of people's personality. I mean, even when you hear people, like, say, "I'm so burnt out." Like, burnout has created its own sense of community now. And I, I say this from an HR standpoint, organizations have a responsibility to provide resources to make sure that employees can thrive, but it's a partnership. And I think that that is difficult ... When we talk about empathy, um, it's difficult for a lot of people to figure out, like, the balance between caring and what is mine to actually carry, and that's where I see a lot of leaders that struggle because no one wants to be seen as less empathetic or not empathetic today. But because a lot of us don't have the background, for example, in mental health, we don't know how to navigate those spaces. So I think that because I do have the background, I may come across as less empathetic to trigger warnings, for example, because it's information, and I appreciate the information, but it's not always something that I have to react and/or respond to.
- 5:04 – 6:05
Evidence on trigger warnings and the case for support after, not alarms before
- AGAdam Grant
I, I loved how you said life doesn't come with trigger warnings. And I guess I would add, if it did, they don't even appear to be effective. There was a recent meta-analysis, it was 24 studies, about 7,000 people, showing that when you give an alert that upsetting content is coming, people don't feel less distress after they, they engage with the content, and they don't learn more from it either, and they actually feel more anxious because they've basically now felt the anxiety twice. There's the alarm beforehand, and then there's the, the distressing content during. And so if, if we're trying to promote mental health, it seems that the best thing to do is to make support available afterward, not to, you know, sound the, the alarm upfront.
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
Exactly, 'cause then you're creating alarms on both ends, especially when you're talking about a trigger warning, [laughs] right?
- AGAdam Grant
Yes.
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
'Cause it happens on both ends when we're in conversation with, with, with other people.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. I, I, I don't wanna do that. That's a reasonable thing to try to minimize. Now
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
Mm-hmm
- 6:05 – 8:07
Diagnoses and labels: useful context, not a ceiling
- AGAdam Grant
... to, to the example you gave of someone going and getting a diagnosis, I think this, this speaks to what we were talking about earlier where, where people are using labels as a shield or a, a- or a crutch. And I- I've been so surprised at, at how often people do this. Almost anything I post people say, "Well, that doesn't apply to me. I have ADHD."
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
"That's not relevant to me because of my attachment style." Uh, "How dare you not account for," [laughs] and, like, fill in the blank. Y-
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
How dare you?
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. And I'm like, look, first of all, I'm speaking about research that applies to most of the people most of the time. You might be an outlier.
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
But that doesn't negate the trend. The trend is still-
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
Yeah
- AGAdam Grant
... worth sharing and discussing, isn't it? What, what's going on here?
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
I think that we have lost the plot again, right? A diagnosis is for, it's information, it's understanding. It gives you context. That's it. Like, it's just context. It says that if you live with ADHD, maybe you're gonna have to have better systems in place for yourself. We have all of these labels, we have all of this language, we have all of this terminology today, and a lot of people are taking what's universal or common and/or normal for different groups and community, and they're adding these additional layers because the need to be seen has taken on a life of itself. And I'm a big believer in acknowledging and validating because I think, I mean, in any relationship or any community you have to acknowledge and validate people, right? But when it becomes the thing that robs you of what your potential, your destiny become, or the, uh, this label now has a ceiling, I am anti that. [laughs] Like, I will never root for that. I will never. I will never, and I know that never is a very strong word, but I will never root for that. [laughs]
- 8:07 – 11:44
Internal validation over likes: building an inner world
- AGAdam Grant
You shouldn't. I think validation shouldn't be a goal. It should be a byproduct of pursuing more meaningful goals.
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
Yes.
- AGAdam Grant
So, uh, I think this is so clear even in the way that you've built your profile. [laughs] As you said, you didn't set out to go viral. You weren't trying to build an audience.
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
You had something meaningful to share, and you've done that so beautifully the validation has come, but you were, if you were after the validation, I don't think you would've gotten it.
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
I don't think so either. I never started out with celebrating, um, like, likes or anything, uh, I think I had, like, in February, like, 3,000 followers. And, uh, I used to celebrate, like, 100 days of consistently posting, right? It felt good to know that I could show up consistently about something that I was passionate about, uh, that was a reflection of what my values are. So to know that when I finally decided to be more courageous and not water down the messaging anymore, that the validation came, but it came internally first before anything.
- AGAdam Grant
That's such a clever way to mark milestones, is to, to celebrate growth and progress, um, or contribution as opposed to [laughs] I, I think so many people are, are trying to measure their success by how many likes they collect as opposed to how many lives they enrich.
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
Yes. Yes. And that's what matters to me. You have to learn to internally validate yourself, and that's what capacity is too. It's, um, learning how to develop a person's inner world as well, and I think that that's probably one of my gifts. I'm really good at listening to people's language to really figure out where they're stuck. So it's almost like I know what to acknowledge and validate, and I also know what not to acknowledge and validate.
- AGAdam Grant
Well, it's something I wish more people knew and understood, and it's also something that we all need help with sometimes 'cause it's really easy to g- to get caught up in the tangible measures and focus-
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
Mm-hmm
- AGAdam Grant
... on what's most visible, which often is the validation. And then pretty soon we're, we're stuck in what Jenny Crocker originally called the costly pursuit of self-esteem, where it's almost like a vicious cycle where [laughs] I'm, I'm actually thinking about, um, the Lord of the Rings here. [laughs]
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Like, okay, like, you're after this external thing that is the object of your attention and desire, and once you get your precious, it doesn't make the craving go away. It just feeds the beast. And you-
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
Yeah
- AGAdam Grant
... you continue needing more and more approval and validation to get the same dopamine kick afterward. Um, and you're kinda left empty inside.
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
Makes me think about Erik Erikson's model. I love his model. It's not linear. I know that he starts off with trust versus mistrust, and then it's your caregivers, but I'm like, no, it just switches. Like, you have to learn to trust your own journey, but we all get to that place of, like, generativity, right? Versus the stagnation.
- AGAdam Grant
Stagnation.
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
And usually in order to get there, you have chased the external validation. I mean, if I go back to how I've gotten here, it was like, I was like, "All right. Well, I look very successful on paper, but something is missing. Like, I feel like something is missing in my life." And as I just threw spaghetti at the wall, I mean, I found my thing, but it wasn't because I was looking for people to acknowledge and praise. Even with now being viral and having so many people, about three weeks
- 11:44 – 15:42
Audience capture and posting from principles (even when it’s unpopular)
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
ago I kept feeling, like, this extreme sense of sadness, and I [laughs] was like, "Where is this coming from? Where is this coming from?" And I realized that I felt, started feeling drained, not necessarily because of, like, negativity, but just the energy that comes back from social media. I started recognizing that I started posting consistently and creating content based off of the feedback that I was giving, and something just didn't feel right. So I was like, "Okay, now you need to go back and reassess," right? 'Cause that's part of having capacity too, what you continue to produce. And I was like The goal a year ago was a promise that I made to myself. I'm gonna continue to post content whether people like it or not. Today, I'm here. I can adjust. You don't have to post every single day because that was more of a promise and a commitment that I made to myself. Can you continue to show up when no one is really clapping for you? Now everybody is clapping for you.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
Can you dial it back?
- AGAdam Grant
It's interesting to hear you talk about, I guess, it sounds like you're describing audience capture, where [laughs] you, you start to shift what you post based on what your followers respond positively to. And over time, there's a risk that you lose sight of your own principles, and also that you become sort of either a caricature of yourself or you, you start to get typecast a little bit. And my reaction to this has been sometimes to deliberately post things that I know people are not gonna like but that I feel strongly about.
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
I j- I just did this. I posted some new research I read on astrology, and I know that-
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
I saw that [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
... you saw that. I, I knew exactly what was coming. I know there is a subset of my audience that is unwilling to have rational dialogue about-
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
... the fact that the positions of the sun, the moon, and the stars, uh, when you were born have no bearing on anything that happens-
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
... in your head or your life, and the evidence is very clear on this. But there's a group of people who like other content I create that will just not have it. And I started to feel like, you know, this, it, it... Is astrology, you know, the most important thing? No. But is it an example of a failure of critical thinking and people being unwilling to consider evidence that challenges their core beliefs? Yes.
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
And this is the kind of thing I would normally share. I share evidence that I think is accurate regardless of how people are gonna feel about it. And so when I read this-
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
Yep
- AGAdam Grant
... the impulse I had not to share it was the one that I felt like I needed to ignore. And, and just as a matter of principle, I needed to do it. And so I'd just love to get your reaction to this. Like, am I poking the bear too much? I- some people have, like, actually commented that, like, they think every once in a while I'm just cl- like, trying to, you know, rage bait people or create engagement via comments.
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
So I, I would love your advice as a, as a, as an expert. [laughs] How should I think about this?
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
No, I, I resonate with that, uh, because I also too appreciate critical thinking, right? And if people are gonna just call me controversial, that's fine because the goal is to make sure that people are still critically thinking for themselves.
- AGAdam Grant
I, I really like your framing of this because it seems like I, I don't want anyone to think that I'm a professional debunker or that I'm someone who deliberately courts controversy. It's, it's actually the opposite. My natural instinct is to avoid controversy. Like, part of how I try to keep growing is to, yeah, to, to try to be courageous in those moments, um, and say, "Yeah, I read this evidence and I think it's worth sharing, and I need to challenge myself to put it out there even though I know some people are gonna get upset by it and that it might touch a nerve." My job is not to manage your emotions. My job is-
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
Mm
- AGAdam Grant
... to share quality information. You took a stand on a topic that I would not have touched with a 10-foot pole.
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
[laughs]
- 15:42 – 17:28
“Your Pain Is Not Unique”: moving beyond victimhood identity
- AGAdam Grant
I cannot even i- imagine speaking about it, and you, you captured everything I could've and would've said about it and much more far better than I ever could've, and I wanna ask you about it. It... Your, I think your, your post was called Your Pain Is Not Unique.
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
Yes. That was my, one of my favorite posts-
- AGAdam Grant
Mine too
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
... if I'm being honest. That's one of my favorite posts.
- AGAdam Grant
Where did this one come from?
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
Uh, personal experiences, right? Like, if I go back to my era of victimhood, [laughs] you could have not told me that my pain was not unique. And I just hope that with me creating that content or, like, calling that up, like your pain is not unique and/or special... Maybe it is special and unique to you. I didn't say that in the video. It is. But, [laughs] however, it's not special and unique to all of the other people around you, and that's a hard truth to hear.
- AGAdam Grant
In that video, you said, "Be careful not to build your identity around your wounds."
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
Why?
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
If you build your identity around your wounds, your worldviews are filtered through your wounds and never really through the growth that can happen. Uh, if it's all about your wounds, anything that I say to you is gonna be filtered through pain. And if it's always filtered through pain, it makes it very difficult for you to hear anything else. And if we think about how we can develop cognitively or just neuroplasticity, you're already shutting those very things down because you're more attached to your wounds than you are to growth.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, I mean, that, [laughs] that, that captures it so well. You said you went through a phase of victimhood.
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
Oh, yeah.
- 17:28 – 18:44
From victimhood to agency: honest relationships and the freedom of choice
- AGAdam Grant
How did you get from there to here?
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
Hmm. I have some really honest people in my life, where they will call me out on my stuff. But I've always been the type of person that will talk about what I'm struggling with. And until I find the right person that can support me, I don't let it die.
- AGAdam Grant
It sounds like you have a, a great challenge network. Uh, I'm, I'm curious, what did they say to you? Did somebody say, "Stop seeing yourself as a victim"?
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
Oh. [laughs] No, they- we don't use, they don't use the word victim. But I remem- uh, the, the first person that comes to my mind, I used to call my mother-in-law when I was struggling. I used to always call her and just, like, venting about all of the things. And she was like, "If you want something else, then just change it. Like, stop complaining. You've been complaining for a while. Just change it." And I remember hearing her say that, and I was like, "She's right." Uh, and my husband is really honest too. [laughs] He's really honest too, and I think it's the thing, like, if you don't like it, then change it. And that just stuck with me. When I went to this coaching program, one of the foundational principles that they introduced us to is the greatest freedom is the freedom of choice, and I used to always think about in what ways am I not exercising my choice?
- AGAdam Grant
That is a great segue to the lightning round. You ready for this?
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
I'm ready.
- 18:44 – 20:48
Lightning round: “Exercise your mental health” and rethinking identity labels
- AGAdam Grant
What's the worst mental health advice that you see people give or get regularly?
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
You need to protect your mental health. I think that that is bad advice.
- AGAdam Grant
So what's your alternative advice then? If, if it's not protect your mental health, what is it?
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
Exercise your mental health.
- AGAdam Grant
What's something you've rethought or changed your mind about lately?
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
What comes to my mind is my own personal journey, that I have to figure out everything now that the world is seeing that life has changed. They're saying you're a celebrity now, and I'm like, I don't have to respond to all that's happening today. Think an older version of me would have gotten wrapped up in, like, FOMO, like capitalize on the opportunities that are presenting themselves, and I'm like, if it's really not for me, then it will not be for me, and that has offered me a sense of freedom and peace to continue to just, like, be true to myself.
- AGAdam Grant
That, that is wisdom that I have rarely heard among people who [laughs] follow the path that you've, you've gone down. What's a hot take or an unpopular opinion that you feel passionate about?
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
Fresh on my mind today is the labels that we put in front of the word mental health. Like, there's no such thing as Black mental health. There's no such thing as woman's mental health. There's no such thing as men's mental health. It's mental health. The labels just give us context. Like, I don't think that you need those additional identifiers in front of mental health for people to know that you may navigate the world differently.
- AGAdam Grant
Wow. Powerful. Who are your dream dinner party guests, alive or dead?
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
Um, Thomas Sowell, uh, Dr. Joseph White, who's a psychologist, Brene Brown.
- AGAdam Grant
What's a question you have for me?
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
What is one thing that is unpopular that you have not shared with the masses yet? [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs] Oh, no. Are you trying to get me canceled, RaQuel? Is that what's happening right now?
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
Kind of. Kind of. [laughs]
- 20:48 – 23:22
Unpopular evidence: post-traumatic growth may be overstated—and why integration matters
- AGAdam Grant
You know what? All right. I, I'll give you one, and this, this maybe is a, a challenge for you. It was actually a challenge for me too. I think there's a growing body of evidence to suggest that most post-traumatic growth is imaginary, not real, that people say things made them better because they wanna, they wanna eliminate cognitive dissonance and rationalize their suffering, um, kinda like someone who went through sorority or fraternity hazing-
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
Oh
- AGAdam Grant
... but that the growth is not always manifested in shifts in their, at least visible shifts, in their thinking, feeling, and action. And I don't know where to put the number, but my, my read of the latest evidence is that it's possible that only, like, 10 or 20% of claimed post-traumatic growth is, is observable by people around us, and that doesn't mean the growth isn't happening, but it-
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
That's good.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. So that... I don't know. What, what's your-
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
That's really good
- AGAdam Grant
... what's your reaction to that?
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
So I, I, I was feeling some dissonance in here as I was listening to it, but I started thinking about this whole coping versus capacity, and just a really basic example came to my mind, right? When I think of, like, the person that is now successful, they're living life on their own terms, but they're always needing these breaks from life, right? Like, they haven't necessarily incorporated it into their overall well-being, but yet they feel like they have grown beyond their trauma. But they're still in survival, but because they have stability, they think that something has really changed.
- AGAdam Grant
Yes.
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
So I would actually agree-
- AGAdam Grant
Wow
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
... with that.
- AGAdam Grant
I, and h- and here I thought you were gonna have some compelling pushback.
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
No, because if capacity is about what you produce, I think that the producing is in the wisdom, the consistency, the sustainability, right? And a lot of people, we know that a lot of people are still struggling today despite the help, the information, the language that they have, and I've actually observed it a lot.
- AGAdam Grant
So interesting. So I guess what, where that leaves me is to say when somebody tells you about a really hard experience and says, "I'm glad I went through it because it made me the following," like, my reaction is you don't have to be glad that you went through it.
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
You can learn something from it, but-
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
Yeah. It's the integration, Adam.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- 23:22 – 26:04
Grief, reflection, and wisdom: growth comes from integration over time
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
It's how you integrate that experience into your, into your life because, um... Can I share, share something with you?
- AGAdam Grant
Please.
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
So I lost my mom to an overdose when I was 11 years old, and it was just really hard for me. I, I had a lot of bitterness, anger. Just, I went through a lot of different phases, and you won't catch me saying that I'm glad that I had that experience, that I lost my mother. What I am grateful for is that I can now see myself in her. So when I became a mom and I realized that I had the ability to cause harm even to my own children, I was like, whoa. Like, it hit me like a ton of bricks. It was like, oh, wow, so you're no different from your mom, and that created this connection to where I really felt like it was no longer about I needed to go through these things or her death really challenged me to be a better person. Because truth told, I would, I did not become a better person until I realized that my crap stinks too or has the ability to stink, and that's how I started to integrate my experiences, and now I have this connection with Her that I've never had before because I don't think I'm any better than her, and I used to think that
- AGAdam Grant
Wow. First of all, thank you for sharing, and sorry for your loss. So sorry for your loss.
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
Thank you.
- AGAdam Grant
Secondly, I think you're, you're pointing to something that I've tried to remind people of, but I never realized it was connected to this idea of post-traumatic growth, which is people, people conflate wisdom and experience all the time. And [laughs] I just, I just, I just wanna say over and over again, wisdom does not come from experience. It comes from reflecting on experience and then changing your, your actions in response to that reflection. And so many people think that, "Well, just because I went through this, therefore I am different." Like, no, that's the beginning of change. It's not the end.
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
And it takes time, too, because those reflections don't always hit you immediately. Like, I say that mine took 20-plus years.
- AGAdam Grant
Wow.
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
And having that discomfort for 20-plus years, I would say in the middle of that, as all of that has produced what you see today, going back to the capacity con- concept, right?
- AGAdam Grant
Well, I don't wanna say I'm glad it happened then, [laughs] but I, I am very glad that you went through the growth after it, uh, to be in a position to, to drop all this wisdom on us.
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
Well, thank you.
- AGAdam Grant
Okay. Uh, last, last question for you before I let you go.
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
Okay.
- 26:04 – 26:58
Core advice for building capacity: grace, seasons, and ongoing evolution
- AGAdam Grant
What's your most important advice for helping people build capacity?
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
To have grace with yourself. Um, recognizing that we're gonna go through these seasons of transition and change, and because we're going through these seasons, you have to be open to developing. The goal is not to arrive at this final destination, but to keep yourself open to evolving and, and, and evolution, but it requires grace.
- AGAdam Grant
Well, you are my favorite voice on mental health. I've learned so much from your work, and I really can't wait to read the book and watch the TED Talk and all of the other great things that I hope are right around the corner.
- RHRaQuel Hopkins
Thank you. [upbeat music]
Episode duration: 27:08
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Transcript of episode aqUJLegiw7I
