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Re:Thinking with Adam GrantRe:Thinking with Adam Grant

How to shift a vibe with M. Night Shyamalan

On tour for his new book, Vibe: The Secrets of Strong Connections in a Lonely World, Adam sits down with filmmaker M. Night Shyamalan to discuss how to spark, strengthen, and shift a vibe, how many close connections it’s possible to have, and why instant chemistry doesn’t always lend itself to long-term compatibility. Adam also shares insights on connection from basketball teams and married couples, and Night pulls back the curtain on how he changes his crews to set up surprising twists in movies like The Sixth Sense, Unbreakable, and The Village. Follow our podcasts! Fixable: https://link.mgln.ai/o91Usw How to Be a Better Human: https://link.mgln.ai/WXo5qg ReThinking with Adam Grant: https://link.mgln.ai/kdYcyx WorkLife with Molly Graham: https://link.mgln.ai/nWar83 TED Talks Daily: https://link.mgln.ai/JGrSiq TED Business: https://link.mgln.ai/NB2CmK TED Health: https://link.mgln.ai/k1DTTu TED Tech: https://link.mgln.ai/k212LC The TED Podcasts is a collection of podcasts for the curious. The TED Podcasts videos may be used for non-commercial purposes under a Creative Commons License, Attribution–Non Commercial–No Derivatives (or the CC BY – NC – ND 4.0 International) and in accordance with our TED Talks Usage Policy (https://www.ted.com/about/our-organiz...). For more information on using TED for commercial purposes (e.g. employee learning, in a film or online course), please submit a Media Request at https://media-requests.ted.com.

M. Night ShyamalanguestAdam Granthost
Oct 21, 202653mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 0:40

    Breaking the script: creating connection to shift a “dead” vibe

    1. MS

      When I get interviewed and the person is just asking a rogue question, you know, without any emotion, without any connection, without any vibe, it kills me. You know, I've learned to be able to diffuse it right away. I'll be like, "Dude, those, are those suede?"

    2. AG

      [laughs]

    3. SP

      [laughs]

    4. MS

      And, and, and do it genuinely about that. And then he, and then the guy's like, "Uh, y- y- yeah, yeah." And I say, "Yeah, so you were asking about, you know, what was it you wanted to know?" And then-

    5. AG

      I love how you're taking over the interview

    6. MS

      ... and, and-

    7. AG

      Yeah

    8. MS

      ... but it's to get some kind of connection, 'cause, dude, let's not fake this vibe. Connection is the only way we know we exist. [upbeat music] [audience applauding] Hi, guys.

  2. 0:40 – 2:14

    Role reversal and mutual admiration: setting the tone for a different interview

    1. AG

      Hey, Night. Welcome to Authors at Wharton.

    2. MS

      I know. This is so wild, 'cause he's interviewed me so many times.

    3. AG

      Too many times?

    4. MS

      So many times. So many times.

    5. AG

      Well, I did come prepared, so if-

    6. MS

      No, no, no. I'm interviewing you. Um-

    7. AG

      I think, I think this could be a conversation.

    8. MS

      Sure.

    9. AG

      I have questions for you too.

    10. MS

      Well, we'll see. We'll see. We'll see how that goes. But I, um, um-

    11. AG

      Wait, before you dive in, can we just say how amazing is it that M. Night Shyamalan is here? [audience applauding]

    12. MS

      Thank you.

    13. AG

      Thank you. Thank you for coming to the series that I host and hosting me. It's, it's really generous of you.

    14. MS

      [laughs]

    15. SP

      [laughs]

    16. MS

      Well, thank you for asking me, seriously. Adam has... He's, like, the Jordan of connectors.

    17. AG

      [laughs]

    18. MS

      And so we go to dinners, and he, and he brings inc- incredibly interesting people. You know, if I come with a preconception of who I am or how I interact with people, you, you reset me and, and allow me to redefine myself. That's coming from you, your energy. You're, you're exceptional at being with people, really. You are.

    19. AG

      Well, thank you.

    20. MS

      I love the, the way you think, and, and, um, it's always, I'm always a student myself, so I'm with you guys 100%.

    21. AG

      Well, thank you for reading the book. Not every interviewer does.

    22. MS

      Really?

    23. AG

      Yeah.

    24. SP

      [laughs]

    25. MS

      That's wacky.

    26. SP

      [laughs]

    27. MS

      Um, what I did was, like, I read the book, and then I just get super nerdy. There was 24 things that I marked down-

    28. AG

      [laughs]

    29. MS

      ... that I wanna talk to you about. Then I put those 24 things into six categories, so that's what we're gonna talk about today.

    30. AG

      Is this how you make your movies?

  3. 2:14 – 5:10

    Vibes as mutual transformation: the “Horcrux” metaphor and becoming new selves

    1. MS

      So this is a really beautiful thing, which I, was really touching to me. So the, uh, I'm paraphrasing some of the stuff on this page. "A v- a vibe is the quality of connection between people," and then it says, "The product is more than mutual attraction. It's mutual transformation," which, which really struck me, and there was two quotes that you put in the book from others. One was, "Each friend represents a world in us, a world possibly not born until they arrive." That's a really beautiful quote, and then another one in that vein, "Certain people draw out a version of you that didn't exist before. They witness you, and thus rearrange you. We all carry endless hidden selves and latent worlds waiting for the right graze to bring them to the surface."

    2. AG

      Sounds like Maya Wilbrink and An- Anais Nin.

    3. MS

      That's correct, yeah.

    4. AG

      Okay. I passed the test so far.

    5. MS

      You did. [laughs]

    6. AG

      Okay, good.

    7. MS

      I mean-

    8. AG

      I love those quotes.

    9. MS

      Yeah. I, it just, it, that, immediately you had me. Uh, can you talk a little bit about if, you know, that connection?

    10. AG

      So Trevor Noah gave me a really interesting metaphor for, for this that I wish he'd given me while I was writing the book because it's so perfect. How many people are familiar with the Horcrux in Harry Potter? Okay, a lot of you. Okay, good. You've, you've, you've read, seen Harry Potter?

    11. MS

      Yeah. Oh, they asked me to make the first movie.

    12. AG

      Seriously? And you turned it down? [laughs]

    13. SP

      [laughs]

    14. MS

      I was making Unbreakable. We'd have to move the family to, to England. They would've had British accents. We wouldn't have been Philly.

    15. SP

      [laughs]

    16. AG

      You turned down Harry Potter?

    17. MS

      [laughs]

    18. SP

      [laughs]

    19. AG

      No, I-

    20. MS

      Although my, although, although my kids want an English accent, so.

    21. AG

      We're gonna have a whole conversation about this.

    22. MS

      Yeah, we will. Another interview. Another interview.

    23. AG

      I'm so curious, but I love Unbreakable.

    24. MS

      Thank you.

    25. AG

      Uh, it's, it's how a superhero movie should be made.

    26. MS

      [laughs]

    27. AG

      Anyway, so Horcruxes, so I, so it looks like almost everybody here is familiar with them, but the way Trevor put it is he said, "Every person you interact with has a little Horcrux of your personality."

    28. MS

      Hmm.

    29. AG

      "They have a little slice of you, and some of that is they know different things about you than anyone else does, but some of that is because of who they are. They elicit aspects of you that were invisible before." And I've had that experience my whole life, and it sounds like you have too, of you meet somebody, and all of a sudden you say, "Wow, I really like who I am with that person."

    30. MS

      Hmm.

  4. 5:10 – 8:09

    Signaling openness: ‘carrying the chessboard’ to invite connection

    1. AG

      And I think so often people are missing opportunities to, to just send that signal that, "Hey, I'm, I'm open to connection. I'm looking for it." I, I, I barely, I think this got a sentence in the book, but one of the more interesting experiences I've had in the last few years was I went to an event, and there was a very prominent, very shy person there, and nobody knew what to say to him, and the next day he showed up in the morning carrying a chessboard, just walking around the event. And it was like this little, it was like a homing signal for anybody who loves chess or anybody who's-

    2. MS

      Hmm

    3. AG

      ... a little bit nerdy or is a fan of games-

    4. MS

      Aah

    5. AG

      ... to approach him and to interact in a fun way, and I just looked at that and thought, "How many times in our lives do we miss the opportunity to carry the chessboard and signal to somebody, 'Hey, there is a side of you that I would love to bring out'"?

    6. MS

      You know, when I get interviewed, um, and the person is just asking a rote question, you know, and when you do junkets for movies, it just, the hundreds and hundreds, I'll do 500 interviews for a movie, and they're just rote. They just say something without any emotion, without any connection, without any vibe. It kills me.

    7. AG

      [laughs]

    8. MS

      And for me to answer would be to be complicit in the killing of myself.

    9. AG

      [laughs]

    10. SP

      [laughs]

    11. MS

      You know, I've learned to be able to diffuse it right away. I'll be like, "Dude, those, are those suede?"

    12. AG

      [laughs]

    13. SP

      [laughs]

    14. MS

      And do it genuinely about that, and then he, and then the guy's like, "Uh, y- yeah, yeah." And I say, "Yeah, so you were asking about, you know, what was it you wanted to know?" And then-

    15. AG

      I love how you're taking over the interview.

    16. MS

      And, and-

    17. AG

      Yeah

    18. MS

      ... but it's to get some kind of connection, 'cause dude, let's not fake this vibe. Let's connect for seven minutes. It's like, it, it, so this, this is all... I, I find it my lifeblood, this thing you're talking about. When I was reading it, I was texting him, and I was like, "Bro, this is really affecting me."

    19. AG

      [laughs]

    20. MS

      'Cause this is how I think about, I, I don't like it when we're not being honest and connecting.

    21. AG

      I think this is something a lot of people don't know about you if they only see you doing cameos in your movies. Because I think that so many of your peers are task-oriented, and they sit down and they say, "Okay, we've got to make the most of every second. We have a goal to achieve. We have a job to do. Let's just get right down to business." And I think you're as passionate as anyone I've ever met about telling stories and bringing your creative vision to life, and yet you always pause to make time to say, "Wait a minute. Like, tell me, tell me who you are. Where'd you come from? What's your background?" And you're, I feel like you, you spend a lot of time soaking up people's life stories before you start working with them, and I, I can only imagine that leads to a better vibe on set, not just in an interview.

    22. MS

      It does. I mean, I use it, the, the connection, to be vulnerable and to do, to ask extreme things of the artists. Again, I, why go through this, all of this, unless we're, we're affecting each other? And connection is, is, is the only way we know we exist. I, you know, um, so, um, it's important to me, this book. So this is-

    23. AG

      Me too.

    24. SP

      [laughs]

    25. MS

      So this is on page 20.

    26. AG

      [laughs]

    27. MS

      I'm gonna be quizzing you.

    28. AG

      [laughs]

  5. 8:09 – 13:33

    Allies, pals, companions, associates: a practical map of relationships

    1. MS

      "When we approach the people we meet as possible associates, allies, pals, or companions, we have more opportunities to vibe." Can you tell me what those categories are? What is that? What does that mean to... He breaks down relationships. Just, like, give me a sense of that.

    2. AG

      This is, I mean, this, this framework has changed the way I think about all my interactions and a lot of my meaningful friendships and all kinds of relationships. But yeah, so I think there are three meaningful ways that we bond with other people, um, ally, pal, and companion. So an ally is somebody who shares your goals. You are on a mission together. They might be somebody you'd love to do a group project with or start a company with or volunteer with because they're reliable and they have skills that are different than yours, but they can ultimately help you accomplish what you want to accomplish. A pal is somebody who shares your interests. This is somebody you have fun with. You love hanging out. You would be excited to invite them to pickleball or karaoke or whatever your idea of an enjoyable afternoon is. And then a companion is somebody who shares your values. You have deep affection for each other.

    3. MS

      Mm.

    4. AG

      This is somebody you would confide in, somebody who would console you, somebody who provides compassion and emotional support.

    5. MS

      Mm.

    6. AG

      And then people that are in your life and still play a role but aren't allies, pals, or companions, I've come to call associates. Um, they just, they fulfill a need for you.

    7. MS

      Mm.

    8. AG

      So it might be your carpenter or-

    9. MS

      I see

    10. AG

      ... your neighbor who carpools with you. Um, maybe not a, an emotionally meaningful connection.

    11. MS

      Got you.

    12. AG

      I think the, the ally, pal, and companion bonds are, to me, the most useful ones to think about because we all have colleagues and friends and relatives who we, we vibe with in different ways, but we're not always on the same page about which kind of relationship we want-

    13. MS

      Mm

    14. AG

      ... or what we have. And so Night, if I approach you, and I really wanna be your pal, and I ask you to play basketball with me all the time, and you think we're only allies, then we are gonna be like ships passing in the night.

    15. MS

      And we, when we spoke about this before, the idea that you're supposed to, you're supposed to go up the ladder, no? And if you don't, you're getting demoted, or you're being like-

    16. SP

      [laughs]

    17. MS

      That's the, the problem, right?

    18. AG

      That's, I, I think that's a broken mental model.

    19. MS

      Yes.

    20. AG

      I think most people would say, "Okay, we should be associates first, and then we'll become pals or allies, and then eventually we get to companionship." But that's not what I see in the data over and over again. What I see in the data, and I've lived this too, is you can be close on any one of these wavelengths. You can have allies you're really close with that you would trust with anything important to you, but your conversations are mostly about work.

    21. MS

      Mm.

    22. AG

      Um, and you're trying to collaborate, and you, you don't have necessarily... You don't hang out outside of work. You don't have conversations about your families. Um, but-

    23. MS

      Mm

    24. AG

      ... they're basically your go-to partner-

    25. MS

      Mm

    26. AG

      ... for anything you wanna get done. You can be really close with pals. Um, a lot of us, I think, have high school pals and college pals, for example, that know us extremely well, that met us at a formative time in our lives, and you don't necessarily have deep conversations about love or loss, but you feel a, a real bond with them. You can also have distant companions.

    27. MS

      Mm.

    28. AG

      I think of, um, in Fight Club, the single-serving friend idea.

    29. MS

      Mm.

    30. AG

      Like, you're sitting on an airplane with somebody, and you're both nervous, and you start to reassure each other. That person could be a companion, and you might never see them again.

  6. 13:33 – 17:30

    Pebbling and integrators vs. segmenters: blending work and personal life

    1. MS

      Being friendly says I like you. Being personal says I see you. Um, on that same page, which is page eight.

    2. AG

      [laughs]

    3. MS

      It is, it, it is bonding to share a pebble you both love. Tell them what a pebble is.

    4. AG

      I've, I've become such a fan of this language. So originally, pebbling, the term comes from a, a mating ritual that some penguins use, where they go and collect s- um, these little pebbles. They're usually smooth, shiny stones, and then they present them to potential mates. And I, I'm not a penguin psychologist, but-

    5. SP

      [laughs]

    6. AG

      ... um, it seems that they're, they're basically signaling, "Look, we could build a nest together. I'm, I'm a dependable mate."

    7. MS

      Right.

    8. AG

      It's a bid for connection.

    9. MS

      Mm.

    10. AG

      I think the modern digital equivalent of pebbling, what penguins do, is when we send each other articles-

    11. MS

      Yeah

    12. AG

      ... links, reels, and memes.

    13. MS

      Yeah.

    14. AG

      And it sounds trivial, but it's not. And I wanna be clear, some of you are, are very active pebblers and are, are talking about it right now.

    15. SP

      [laughs]

    16. AG

      Um, let's be clear, I'm not talking about spamming people with random junk that you found on the internet and sending it to every person you've ever met. What I'm talking about is, "Hey, Night, I just read this article that actually reminded me of, of something that was in The Village, and I don't know if you ever wanna make a sequel to it, but I think this is, there's a seed here. This would be really interesting."

    17. MS

      Mm.

    18. AG

      And I've taken the time to remember a past conversation we had about the arc of The Village, and hopefully you see that as a gesture of care.

    19. MS

      Mm.

    20. AG

      Right? That I, I cared enough to, to pay attention to what you were thinking about, and I took the time to share something that I thought would be meaningful to you, or even would be meaningful for us.

    21. MS

      That's so, it's so beautiful, that whole concept. I screwed up. There was one thing on the previous section.

    22. SP

      [laughs]

    23. MS

      I'm not for six sections and the four things, so. Um, it, with the connection of, like, the allies, companions, and all that stuff.

    24. AG

      Yeah.

    25. MS

      In your footnote-

    26. AG

      Oh, wow, you read carefully.

    27. SP

      [laughs]

    28. MS

      Yeah, in your footnote on page 32-

    29. AG

      [laughs]

    30. MS

      ... you wrote this: "Whereas integrators enjoy blurring the lines between work and home, segmenters like to maintain strict boundaries. Segmenting personal and professional relationships isn't just an individual preference, it's a cultural norm. Americans tend to be task focused on the job. We have associates and allies in the office, and save our emotional bonds for home. In many parts of Europe, Asia, Latin America, people are more inclined to treat their colleagues like pals or companions. In one survey across continents, a quarter of the people in Poland, and nearly half in India-

  7. 17:30 – 21:01

    Workplace ‘family’ myth: building community without false promises

    1. MS

      Uh, it's been, um, tricky, to be, to be transparent. It's been tricky because I do live in the United States. I do work in the United States. Um, because, uh, my instinct is for everyone to be family, and it's tricky. Well, I'm, I'm... We both know a, another person named Danny Meyer who, in his book, he references a thing that... He's, he and I are very similar, Danny and I, and, and he, he used to think that, "Well, let's make everyone in our companies be family." Um, but he realized that that's not actually c- working, and they, it's more, you know, you're, you have a purpose together and you're all working together, um, towards something, and I wonder if that's the answer for the United States.

    2. AG

      I think it might be. I think, look, I think it's a huge problem to call a company a family Because it creates unrealistic expectations of unconditional love, right?

    3. MS

      Mm.

    4. AG

      People, people hear, "Wow, we're a family," and then they can't imagine that they could ever get a bad performance review or they could be fired or furloughed because you wouldn't do that to your siblings-

    5. MS

      Mm

    6. AG

      ... or to your children. And yet we do do that in workplaces because we have performance standards. I think what people mean when they say our company is a family is we wanna have a real sense of community. We want people to have belonging. We don't just wanna be associates or allies. We wanna interact as companions, too, and we wanna show care and respect for each other, and I think that's reasonable, right? You can say, look, I, I, I, I've seen you do this with people you work with, right? You, you show real affection for them. I've even heard you say you love some of them, and I think that's, that's what companionship looks like. But you still have to be clear, if they don't meet your collective performance expectations, that's gonna be a real conversation that you have.

    7. MS

      So if you came into my company, would you say that I would need to adjust this the way I am with them? This is what makes me sad because it, there is the possibility that one day we'll let you go, and then it feels devastating, or everything was a lie.

    8. AG

      No, I wouldn't, I wouldn't say you have to fundamentally change. What I would say is you have to be extra clear. You have to be clear in saying, "Here's what it means to be good allies here." And so I think first and foremost, if people are gonna work together-

    9. MS

      Mm

    10. AG

      ... they need to be aligned about what allyship means. It means we agree to put the mission first. It means we agree to live by a, a shared code of values, and we accept those as our guiding principles, and part of those guiding principles for you might be we treat each other like people who care deeply about each other.

    11. MS

      Mm.

    12. AG

      We're gonna, we're gonna interact as companions. We're gonna show each other emotional support.

    13. MS

      Mm.

    14. AG

      We're gonna know what's going on in each other's lives, but I never want somebody to be companions at the expense of being good allies.

    15. MS

      Mm.

    16. AG

      Is that a conversation you could have? Have you had it?

    17. MS

      Um, I, I may have said words that reflect that.

    18. AG

      [laughs]

    19. MS

      But I think the emotions overtake it. The, the intensity of the relationships is overtaking logic, and so when you go, "Hey, this isn't working out," or something, or, you know, it's just all emotional to the point... And it's naturally emotional even if you didn't, uh, run a company the way I run it and run, you know? It's complicated.

    20. AG

      It, definitely, and I, I think this is one reason why a lot of, a lot of people who are creative the way that you are creative will bring in a CEO to do a lot of the management work.

    21. MS

      Mm. I see. [laughs]

    22. AG

      [laughs]

    23. MS

      If I brought him in-

    24. AG

      That's not advice.

    25. MS

      [laughs]

  8. 21:01 – 24:30

    Compatibility grows with familiarity: chemistry as a buildable skill

    1. MS

      I like this line that, um, I want you to tell me about this. This is a little bit of, like, how to strengthen our, our, our relationships and our things. You say compatibility grows with familiarity, which I thought was really cool, which says it can be, it can be nurtured or grown, compatibility.

    2. AG

      Yeah. I think most people hear the term compatibility, and they think we've got to match on it, right? So are you compatible with someone on a first date? Are you compatible with someone in a job interview? If you pick the wrong person-

    3. MS

      Mm

    4. AG

      ... you're screwed. But the overwhelming evidence on this suggests that it's very hard to know if you're gonna click before you've actually built up some history interacting together.

    5. MS

      Mm.

    6. AG

      And w- we're both basketball fans, so I think basketball is the easiest place to see this. There's a study of NBA teams where it turns out that they don't maximize their chances of, of performing well until they've played together, the, the core team, for about three years, maybe four years.

    7. MS

      Mm.

    8. AG

      And I think we see a lot of super teams fail in the first year, and we say, "Oh, bad chemistry. We should not have put them together."

    9. MS

      Mm.

    10. AG

      But I am willing to give LeBron and Jaylen Brown a second year.

    11. MS

      Mm.

    12. AG

      Right? We, we know what they can do individually. We don't know what their game is gonna look like together.

    13. MS

      Mm.

    14. AG

      We don't know whether Jaylen is gonna naturally anticipate LeBron's no-look passes or whether they're gonna hit him in the face, and we don't know how much time it's gonna take to build up those shared routines so that they're complementing each other, so that they're, uh, maybe compensating for each other's weaknesses and harnessing each other's strengths, and that is not something you can assess on day one.

    15. MS

      Mm. Well, I found it very encouraging that compatibility is something that is a s- almost a skill a little bit. Would you say that or no?

    16. AG

      I, I think building it is definitely a skill.

    17. MS

      Mm.

    18. AG

      Yeah, I mean, to con- continue with the basketball analogy, I think the, the first thing that the Sixers s- really talked about this summer, right, was, okay, how are we gonna fit our pieces together? Everybody has a role that they're used to playing.

    19. MS

      Mm.

    20. AG

      And is that role what the team needs right now?

    21. MS

      Mm.

    22. AG

      Let's try to figure that out, and let's run a bunch of experiments to see what happens if Joel Embiid actually stands under the basket occasionally-

    23. MS

      Mm

    24. AG

      ... instead of hanging around the perimeter. Like, if he were to play center, that might open things up.

    25. MS

      There's some sarcasm there.

    26. AG

      Maybe. I don't know. It's just, it's just a hunch.

    27. MS

      I don't want to get off on a tangent, but-

    28. AG

      Sorry

    29. MS

      ... I remember, I remember some study about how much teams, the NBA teams, if they actually touch each other, like, you know, "You did a good job. You did a good job," like that, that there was the correlation between the success of the team and the amount of times they... Is that true? Am I remembering that right?

    30. AG

      You are remembering it. This is a Michael Kraus study which is not... I don't want to claim that this is causal, but they do show that if they count the number of celebratory touches, so a fist bump, a high five, a bear hug, during games after great plays in October or November, you can actually use how often teams touch each other enthusiastically to predict successfully how many games they're gonna win by the end of the season six months later. I don't think... Let's just be really clear. I don't think that if I tap you a few more times, you're suddenly gonna play better, right? I don't think that is creating team chemistry. I think it's a signal of team chemistry.

  9. 24:30 – 28:03

    Snow globes, conversational narcissism, and bounded vulnerability (scars vs. wounds)

    1. MS

      Okay, so, oh yeah, this is cool. All human interaction is just basically taking turns showing each other our snow globes. A strong vibe develops when you're as interested in seeing their snow globe as you are in displaying yours. I like that analogy.

    2. AG

      Credit to the comedian Mae Martin. Uh, if you haven't seen Mae's Netflix special, there's this one scene that I will not do justice where basically Mae says, yeah, our lives are these snow globes, right? We have these, these precious experiences we've had, and we're supposed to be showing each other our snow globes, but what most people just end up doing is saying, "Here's my snow globe, and let me tell you more about me and my snow globe."

    3. MS

      Mm. Mm.

    4. AG

      Uh, and they forget to show an interest in the other person, and I think sociologists call that conversational narcissism.

    5. MS

      Wow, silence. Let's just take that in.

    6. AG

      [laughs]

    7. SP

      [laughs]

    8. AG

      And you don't have to be a narcissist to engage in conversational narcissism, right? There, there are people who are, are perfectly-

    9. MS

      I see. I see

    10. AG

      ... decent who sometimes slip into the pattern of just talking about themselves.

    11. MS

      This is somewhat... I don't even know if I... It might be something I'm remembering from you. It, it's, it just popped into my head. When y- y- you, you form a stronger bond when you talk about your scars, not your wounds.

    12. AG

      I think there is something to that. I think sometimes when people talk about their current pain, it ends up feeling like a trauma dump.

    13. MS

      Mm.

    14. AG

      And people say, "Whoa, too much information."

    15. MS

      Mm.

    16. AG

      TMI. Whereas if you talk about your past struggles, you're not putting a burden on the other person.

    17. MS

      Mm. That's it, yeah.

    18. AG

      You're showing vulnerability, but it's bounded vulnerability.

    19. MS

      Yeah.

    20. AG

      The other person doesn't have to hold your hand. They don't have to take care of you.

    21. MS

      Mm.

    22. AG

      They can just listen to you and understand you, and I think we all need companions that we can talk about our wounds with, but I think if you're trying to build a bond, it's probably better to start with a scar.

    23. MS

      Yeah, and you, you, this, 'cause there's distance. It's a... And I think you were, went into by showing the vulnerability, if I said, "Hey, Adam, you know, there was this thing and this time I did this, you know, and, and, and it didn't go well, and I screwed up and..."

    24. AG

      Well, tell me, Night, what didn't go well?

    25. MS

      [laughs] Just-

    26. AG

      I want, I wanna know. What is it?

    27. MS

      But there's, like, you know, if I chose, let's say I, I didn't do a movie for the wrong reason.

    28. AG

      Harry Potter. Okay, go on.

    29. SP

      [laughs]

    30. MS

      No, not Harry Potter. That one I'm still standing by.

  10. 28:03 – 33:04

    Rituals, change, and creative growth: why Shyamalan rotates collaborators

    1. MS

      Very sweet. Um, and then I was, I like this, some of the things that I, I was reading that helped us with challenging stuff about, about bonds and relationship, which, uh, was affecting to me. Bad relationships confine us to situations that activate our worst selves. Good relationships put us in situations that bring out our best selves. Great relationships introduce rituals that elevate us into better versions of ourselves. I thought that was really, really powerful, the idea that we... And I do think that you, you do that for me. You know? That, like, I want to have people over for dinner and, and connect and all that stuff, but that you, you do it, and you're pushing me out of my comfort zone and I know Bhavna's comfort zone, but these are the things we want, but we don't actually do it. You're doing it, and you're elevating us in this kind of aspirational way.

    2. AG

      Aw, thank you.

    3. MS

      So vibes are complex and evolving. We can gain chemistry, page 77. P- we can gain chemistry as we change the situation and get closer as we change each other. We grow closest as we allow each other to change. I thought that was really profound.

    4. AG

      But hard.

    5. MS

      Yeah.

    6. AG

      It's really hard because I think one of the most distressing things that happens to people in close relationships, this is true in romantic relationships, it's true in longstanding friendships-

    7. MS

      Mm

    8. AG

      ... it's true in great collaborations too, is you feel like you have, you've put the work in to build, you've built a great bond, and then all of a sudden the person shows up different from how they've been in the past, and you just, you wanna hold on to who they've been because you like what it brings out in you.

    9. MS

      Mm.

    10. AG

      And you are doing both the other person and the relationship a disservice by asking them to stagnate, I think.

    11. MS

      I have, I have a saying that you can't grow up in the house you grew up in because the, you know, like, when I go visit my mom, I'm s- 16 again.

    12. AG

      Mm.

    13. MS

      It's just the way it goes, you know? We're having similar conversations. It's what is, you know, home a little bit, and it's partly why I use different collaborators for, for a lot of my movies, new DPs and new co-, you know, anything that I, just-

    14. AG

      What's a DP?

    15. MS

      Oh, sorry, director of photography, the, the, the cinematographer. So, like, you know, I'd never even met the cinematographer who did Remain. I wanna be a new version of myself, and then when we started working out the shots, he would be like, "W- Ah, man, d- d- don't do that. Don't do that. And, you know, we can do it in one shot. I'm like, "You know what? We can do it in one shot."

    16. AG

      [laughs]

    17. MS

      You know, I started to think in a different way, and I was telling Bum I, like, I had so many bad habits that he kept calling me on, and he was awakening this, this thing in me.

    18. AG

      That's so interesting 'cause I think a lot of people will say, look, knowing how much energy and effort it takes to build a great collaboration, the last thing I wanna do is, is let that go. I wanna keep those people with me. I think about, like, I think about the... Like, uh, uh, I guess you see this a lot in comedy, like the Mel Brooks movies-

    19. MS

      Yeah

    20. AG

      ... or the Adam Sandler movies, right? There's, there, there's a consistent cast of, of characters both in front of the camera and behind it. And I love you saying, "Okay, I have some go-to people, but I also wanna mix it up so I keep growing."

    21. MS

      This subject is very tricky, how to be, uh, start a new version of yourself because as an artist I need to be a new version of myself. So by definition, if I had everyone the same, I'm gonna say it in the same language. A different story, but in-

    22. AG

      Mm-hmm

    23. MS

      ... in this very similar accent or that part of me that, that, the crystal that is me, that part that's reflecting would be the same thing over and over. So I can feel it in me 'cause if I... If, like, you were one of my collaborators, if you were the, the production designer, I would be like, "I know what Adam's gonna say." Right? If I... That's a, that's not a great thing when I go, "I know what Adam's gonna say."

    24. AG

      Yeah, because-

    25. MS

      I don't wanna know

    26. AG

      ... because if you can, if you can anticipate what I'll say, you've already internalized what I was contributing and you don't need me in the room.

    27. MS

      This evolving and changing so we can get closer. I mean, ideally we could have both. The, the, like, the, the team that's been together for years, but oh, they're still changing.

    28. AG

      Well, if you go back to the, the NBA study, uh, after three or four years together, the, you start to see diminishing returns of shared experience.

    29. MS

      Mm.

    30. AG

      And I think part of it is the, the routines get stale.

  11. 33:04 – 35:12

    Small talk vs. real bids: compliments as courageous connection

    1. AG

      Oh, yeah. I, uh, I think I was writing about the, how much I hate small talk.

    2. MS

      Yes. I, uh, I think it was you were saying it was in lieu of, like, a piece of humanity.

    3. AG

      Yeah, I think that-

    4. MS

      Which is so beautiful, like, that we have something beautiful and human that I, we're about to exchange and transform each other, and instead we say, "It's, you know, it's, it's chilly today, isn't it?"

    5. AG

      [laughs] Yes, we're going to be British.

    6. MS

      [laughs]

    7. AG

      Uh, but yeah. I think, I think that happens all the time. I think we go to familiar scripts to avoid awkwardness.

    8. MS

      Mm.

    9. AG

      And that leads to a predictable interaction that won't make us feel weird, but we do it at the expense of having a meaningful connection.

    10. MS

      And this we... This is what we all hate about small talk, this. That we're cutting off the humanity part to try to, I don't know, to get through it.

    11. AG

      It, it's interesting 'cause I, I had a great debate with somebody last week who said, "You know, I, I complimented somebody's scarf in an airport, and we hit it off."

    12. MS

      Yes.

    13. AG

      "So you're wrong about small talk."

    14. MS

      Yeah.

    15. AG

      And I said, "No, a compliment is the opposite of small talk."

    16. MS

      Mm.

    17. AG

      The, the leap of faith you have to take to praise someone in something else, that is a huge display of vulnerability.

    18. MS

      Mm. Mm.

    19. AG

      Right? I don't know if you're gonna respond well to it or not. I'm putting myself out there, and the fact that then the other person received it with gratitude and said, "Thank you."

    20. MS

      Mm.

    21. AG

      "I, I actually am really proud of this scarf. I had to..." [laughs] Like, it was a, it was a whole, it was a whole experience to, to find it and to get it. I think that compliments may feel small, but I think they're, they're some of the deepest modes of connection we have.

    22. MS

      Yeah, I don't even think the word small talk is, is correct 'cause it could be in minute, um-

    23. AG

      Yes

    24. MS

      ... but it's said with, um, real genuine wanting to get to your humanity.

    25. AG

      Yeah.

    26. MS

      Um, then it's there. That's why I... When I was referencing the interviewers who don't, don't offer me their humanity, I'm out. Even for those few minutes, I'm not... It's not worth us doing pretend. And I know he needs to get or she needs to get that answer for their editor or whatever it is, but it's not worth us giving up this moment together.

    27. AG

      No. And so this is actually a great way to make a public service announcement. For anyone who interviews Night in the future-

    28. MS

      [laughs]

    29. AG

      ... be sure to compliment his shoes.

  12. 35:12 – 42:00

    Acceptance, boundaries, and constructive friction: strengthening bonds through hard truths

    1. MS

      There you go. I thought this was really interesting and difficult, this stuff coming up, which is ex- uh, page 112. We're getting deep. "Acceptance is not about justifying or excusing abuse. It's about granting others leeway to engage in behaviors that fall within our zone of appropriate action. Neuroscientists find that feeling understood is enough to light up the reward center in our brains."

    2. AG

      So I, I got interested in this because every relationship we have has moments of ambivalence, mixed feelings, right? We're, we're usually allies or pals or companions with someone because we see a lot of virtues in them, and we think they bring out virtues in us, but everyone has vices and flaws. And sometimes those, [laughs] uh, those, those end up being sort of unpleasant for us. So, uh, my... You, you know this, Night. I run late a lot.

    3. MS

      Mm.

    4. AG

      A lot.

    5. MS

      Mm.

    6. AG

      Like, tardiness is a, is a consistent challenge for me. And you also know my wife Allison considers being late a mortal sin.

    7. MS

      Mm.

    8. AG

      So you can imagine how this goes in a marriage, right? Allison is ready to leave for a dinner party, and it's 37 minutes before we're supposed to leave, and she already feels like I'm late And then we leave maybe 10 or 12 minutes late, and she's, she's, she's not okay with that.

    9. MS

      [laughs]

    10. AG

      And I know that I'm supposed to do better, but I just, I try to pack too much into my day, and I think flow states are precious. When, when I get absorbed in a, in a task or a project, I, I just... I have a really hard time disengaging.

    11. MS

      I'm with Allison on this one. [coughs]

    12. SP

      [laughs]

    13. AG

      Thanks. Um, yeah, I'm just demoting you to associate right here.

    14. MS

      [laughs]

    15. AG

      Companion potential has been extinguished right in this very moment.

    16. SP

      [laughs]

    17. AG

      I thought you would have my back, Night, but-

    18. MS

      'Cause this is my bugaboo, by the way.

    19. AG

      You're right. You're right.

    20. MS

      [laughs]

    21. AG

      So here's the thing. Instead of trying to change my values or my philosophy of being on time, she accepts the fact that I am not good at showing up for things on time, and she says, "I know that you run late. I know this is a habit of yours. I don't like it, but I can't change it." And then she says, "Here are the times when it's not okay."

    22. MS

      Mm.

    23. AG

      And she will tell me, "Today, we cannot be late-"

    24. MS

      Mm. Mm. Mm

    25. AG

      ... because somebody has made dinner, and it's gonna end up getting burned-

    26. MS

      Mm. Mm

    27. AG

      ... if they're waiting for us." And I love... This is, to me, a great skill set that we could all apply. Whenever somebody does something that's unpleasant for me, um, I'll say, "Look, I, I accept that this is a preference of yours or a part of your personality, and I just wanna be clear with you about here's where that's fine and tolerable, and here's where that could be problematic."

    28. MS

      Mm.

    29. AG

      And that way they know when they need to shape up basically.

    30. MS

      I, I thought that was really beautiful, the idea of, like, having acceptance for this window of, of things in each other.

  13. 42:00 – 43:24

    Purpose over cohesion: teams, startups, and ‘allies first’

    1. MS

      I'm stealing all those. Okay, my last thing here, when researchers analyzed the success of more than 12,000 sports and work teams, social cohesion was less important than commitment to the purpose and pride in the team. Focusing on relationships between members was less effective than clarifying the group objectives. Me, I thought that was amazing. It's all the things we're talking about.

    2. AG

      Yeah.

    3. MS

      Um, and again, my, my little... my issue, which is, you know, I'm putting- ... connection over all things when, when there is allies, pals, and companions, and I'm turning everything into a companion

    4. AG

      Allies first and foremost.

    5. MS

      Mm.

    6. AG

      And this is, I mean, this is what ha- you said your, your films are like startups.

    7. MS

      Mm.

    8. AG

      This happens in so many startups. People like each other, and they don't realize that doesn't necessarily mean they're gonna like working with each other.

    9. MS

      Mm.

    10. AG

      So friends get together, they launch something, and then they walk on eggshells because they don't wanna damage the friendship.

    11. MS

      Mm.

    12. AG

      That causes the project or the business to fail-

    13. MS

      Mm

    14. AG

      ... and then, in turn, also does damage to the friendship.

    15. MS

      Mm.

    16. AG

      And so I think the beginning of any healthy collaboration is to walk through, what does it mean to be good allies? What's the commit, what are the commitments we're gonna honor for each other?

    17. MS

      Mm.

    18. AG

      And I think that that, that is a conversation I would not discourage you from having.

    19. MS

      Okay, so let's just, should we do some of the questions from the-

    20. AG

      Yeah. We got some great audience questions.

  14. 43:24 – 53:39

    Audience Q&A: fast chemistry, genre twists, and limits on close relationships

    1. MS

      In Vibe, you bust the myth that true chemistry has to happen quickly. In many toxic relationships, the early honeymoon phase actually feels incredibly intense, magical, and fast-moving, only to drop off a cliff into something unhealthy once reality sets in. How can we tell the difference between genuine chemistry and a dopamine-fueled illusion that's m- masking future red flags? Somebody was hurt. [laughs]

    2. AG

      Wow. [laughs] Okay, so here's the thing. I think in the moment when you experience chemistry with somebody else, um, it's not just a feeling. Like, the, the vibe is not just in your head. It's actually traceable in your body. Your brainwaves and your heartbeats are synchronizing.

    3. MS

      Mm.

    4. AG

      And the danger of that is that can happen because of attraction. It can happen because of romantic attraction. It can happen because of interpersonal attraction. You're really drawn to the energy that's crackling in the interaction. What you don't know is whether you're longer-term aligned.

    5. MS

      Mm.

    6. AG

      And I think the question I would ask, this goes right back to, are we potential allies, pals, or companions?

    7. MS

      Mm.

    8. AG

      If you wanna go beyond you have the dopamine rush-

    9. MS

      Mm

    10. AG

      ... to is this a meaningful connection, I think you have to know-

    11. MS

      Mm

    12. AG

      ... are there goals that are important to you that they either share or are willing to support you in trying to achieve? If you wanna be pals, you have to find some common interests and discover things or develop things that you really en- enjoy doing together.

    13. MS

      Mm.

    14. AG

      And, you know, that's really different from, I think I can count on you, and I can trust you, right? Which is what you're looking for in an ally. I think with a companion, what you're trying to figure out is, is this somebody who you could see yourself dropping everything to pick up from the airport or to rush to a hospital, and could you count on them to do the same thing, which is, again, really different from would they be a good pal or a good ally. And all of these questions are about trying to assess is there alignment in interests, goals, and values, as opposed to just energy.

    15. MS

      But in, built into this, baked into this question, um, was a sense that that initial period was a lie.

    16. AG

      It's not necessarily a lie, right? Your energy can be synchronizing.

    17. MS

      That's what... Yeah.

    18. AG

      But-

    19. MS

      It could, it could've been beautiful, and it could've been, like you said, a momentary companion.

    20. AG

      Yeah.

    21. MS

      And then when you tried to make it a permanent companion, all these other things came.

    22. AG

      Yeah, I think the lesson from that is don't mistake a great interaction-

    23. MS

      Mm

    24. AG

      ... for a great relationship. Those are two different things.

    25. MS

      That's a, that's a beautiful way, 'cause there's something dark, obviously, about this. [laughs]

    26. AG

      [laughs]

    27. MS

      And I prefer to see it that way. Um, so that's, that's really lovely. Um, blah, blah, blah, blah. Let's see. I mean, I mean, some of these are for me, which is silly.

    28. AG

      We, we have to... G- give me that.

    29. MS

      This is silly.

    30. AG

      I wanna read it for you.

Episode duration: 53:40

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