How to stop chasing status with Alain de Botton and RaQuel Hopkins | ReThinking with Adam Grant

1. 0:00 – 1:49

   Why wisdom matters now: Bringing The School of Life into the emotional arena

   1. ABAlain de Botton0:00

      If you're gonna be an elitist, please could you be an elitist about the really important things, you know, which is, is someone kind? Is someone nice? Is their soul open? Are they thoughtful? And maybe we can afford to pass judgment, as it were, on where people are according to this scale of values. [upbeat music]

   2. AGAdam Grant0:21

      So this is, this is a little bit of an experiment. RaQuel, I think you might be our first guest cohost-

   3. RHRaQuel Hopkins0:27

      Really?

   4. AGAdam Grant0:27

      ... to, yeah, to nominate your dream guest, and we got him.

   5. RHRaQuel Hopkins0:31

      Thank you.

   6. ABAlain de Botton0:31

      Fantastic.

   7. AGAdam Grant0:33

      RaQuel, tell me, tell me first why this bald man made the top of your list.

   8. RHRaQuel Hopkins0:39

      I think I was reading about, um, the intellectual elite, and he spoke about how knowledge is not being used in the most effective to wa- effective way today. And that really caught my attention because I thought about how information and knowledge should be used or can be used, and it's to help people live better and meaningful lives. And I think that that resonates with me when I talk about mental health in general. And I like the whole concept of School of Life and integrating wisdom back into society. Old wisdom.

   9. AGAdam Grant1:13

      Well, there it is.

   10. RHRaQuel Hopkins1:13

       [laughs]

   11. AGAdam Grant1:14

       Alain, your life's work just narrated back to you.

   12. ABAlain de Botton1:16

       Fantastic, fantastic. So yeah, so I started The School of Life together with colleagues, um, many years ago, kind of 15 more years ago, and the idea was to try and find a home for, um, a word which sounds really strange, but wisdom, uh, in relation to many of life's challenges, chiefly in the emotional arena. Could we try and capture, um, some of the wisdom that's out there and diffuse it, um, effectively?

   13. AGAdam Grant1:40

       So is there a, is there a particular lesson that you have found counterintuitive when trying to think about, like, inculcating wisdom?

2. 1:49 – 3:35

   The relief of realistic expectations: imperfect relationships and “suffering twice”

   1. ABAlain de Botton1:49

      You know, if you embark on a relationship, let's say, and you're aware that the person you're with is going to be really, really imperfect, they're going to let you down, they're gonna madden you at points. At some points you'll wish you never met them. And yet they may still be absolutely a really good person for you. Um, that could be a very sound basis to embark on a relationship wi- with someone. Um, a lot of the reason why we suffer is we suffer twice. We suffer because things don't go our way, and then we suffer a second time because we think they should have done. And to remove certain beliefs in the inevitability of, you know, things being wonderful, um, can really alleviate, you know, people's, um, sense of having been singled out for punishment. I think so many of us are suffering inside, very lonely way, thinking, "What's wrong with me? Um, I don't see any evidence around me for the level of self-doubt, anxiety, suffering, uh, unkindness that I experience. Um, what's gone wrong with my life?" And so often you just wanna say to this person, "Welcome to the human experience." It's just we're just-

   2. RHRaQuel Hopkins3:03

      That's what I say

   3. ABAlain de Botton3:04

      ... suffering wrongly.

   4. RHRaQuel Hopkins3:04

      [laughs]

   5. ABAlain de Botton3:05

      Right. And so we've, we've got this notion of normality that is not normal, and we suffer from it. Um, and we think we're the only ones when we're in fact in a vast majority. So we're far lonelier than we ever deserve to be because we don't really know the reality of others. Even in an age that's so hyper-connected and that's so big on the transfer of information, there is still an enormous mystery about what it is to be human and an enormous editing about what a, a decent life will inevitably involve.

3. 3:35 – 5:29

   The modern myth of guaranteed happiness—and how it fuels anger

   1. RHRaQuel Hopkins3:35

      You have this, um, I, I think I read you have this mo- you, you refer to this modern myth as, uh, a lot of us believe that we deserve happiness.

   2. ABAlain de Botton3:44

      Mm-hmm. That's right, and it seems, I mean, it seems like such a generous idea. Everybody's gonna be happy. Of course you'd, you'd want this. But, you know, partly it's also the effort that's required to, to achieve it. I mean, it's like saying everybody can play the violin, and that's technically true. They can, but they're gonna have to work very hard at it. Might need to be quite lucky, et cetera. So we underestimate the effort that's required.

   3. AGAdam Grant4:04

      Alain, what you were describing as the suffering twice problem of, you know, things didn't go the way I wanted, and I'm upset about that, and then I'm upset also [laughs] about the fact that I'm upset. When I see people fall into that trap, it just seems like a self-inflicted wound. Like, you're taking the whatever small amount of suffering you've encountered, and then you're magnifying it and choosing to suffer about your past suffering.

   4. ABAlain de Botton4:30

      What do you do if, uh, not everything is as beautiful as, you know, it was promised? Uh, get very angry and, um, you know, cross. So, so rage. Rage is often the result of high ideals. And, and, and you know, if you look at the United States now, it's, it's such a paradoxical country. Wildly successful in all sorts of ways, in all sorts of areas, and also widely rageful, um, and, and, and full of disappointment and pockets of anger and fury that are sometimes hard for others to understand. But I think the two go together. I think they are part and parcel of the same thing. If you tell people everybody has the right to happiness, it's beautiful. That's a lovely thing to hear. But boy, oh boy, you're gonna have some trouble on your hands as well. I mean, happiness is something that lasts for 15 minutes. Um, beyond that you always g- got the next problem on your hands. So yeah, tricky. Tricky, tricky.

4. 5:29 – 7:29

   From outrage to melancholy: learning to carry grief with maturity

   1. AGAdam Grant5:29

      The statement rage is the result of high ideals is very powerful. As I think about it, I think you're, you're saying it's not the ideals themselves, but it's the gap between the ideals and reality that causes-

   2. ABAlain de Botton5:41

      That's right

   3. AGAdam Grant5:42

      ... the reaction. And is the reaction rage or is it outrage?

   4. ABAlain de Botton5:45

      A bit of both. Outrage at somebody else's rage, um, and, uh, rage at your own ideals being trampled upon. So ma- perhaps a little bit of both. Um, but, but high emotion, um, as opposed to, you know, adaptive strategies. Um- I mean, let's hear it, let's hear it for an unusual word, melancholy. It's one of my favorite words, melancholy. What a, what a, what an odd word. Melancholy is situated somewhere between, um, you know, happiness and tragedy. It's like it's grief well worn. It's like, "How you feeling?" "Ah, a little bit melancholy." You know? It's like I'm aware that life's got a lot of suffering in it, but, but I can smile as well. I'm, I can help out. I can be of use. I'm, I'm not giving up. But I've certainly taken a knock. I've certainly, you know ... And, and no one over 40 isn't gonna escape that, or at least that, that possibility. So yeah, uh, so one of, one of the big questions is what are you gonna do with your grief? Whose fault is it? How are you gonna wear it? How are you gonna handle it? Where are you gonna put it? How do we mourn properly when, when things go wrong? Yeah, big questions.

   5. AGAdam Grant6:55

      When you say melancholy, I can't help but think of Lincoln, who was probably the, the most famous, quote-unquote, victim of it, and he was clearly, if you read his, his journal entries, it was very unpleasant from him, for him. [laughs] He, he did not enjoy the state of melancholy, but he did extraordinary things for his country and the world. And I can only imagine if, you know, if Lincoln was [laughs] RaQuel pathologizing as you describe his melancholy and spending several hours a day in therapy, that might have inhibited his ability, uh, to be of service as he was.

   6. RHRaQuel Hopkins7:28

      Yeah. Absolutely.

5. 7:29 – 9:32

   Pursuit of happiness vs. attainment—and the rise of status as a substitute

   1. AGAdam Grant7:29

      You know, the other thing I'm just thinking about is, Alain, when you talk about the, the right to happiness, on this side of the Atlantic, there is no right to happiness. The Declaration of Independence promised people lives, liberties, and the pursuit of happiness, not the discovery of happiness, not the realization, not the attainment of happiness, and I think that's an important distinction that's often overlooked.

   2. ABAlain de Botton7:51

      So a space was opened up, but no necessary route to it, um, which, which perhaps even aggravates that restlessness, which of course has given the American spirit its unbelievable vivacity and energy, um, because there is such curiosity.

   3. AGAdam Grant8:06

      I'm wondering if what's happened to a lot of people is that the pursuit of happiness has been linked too closely to status. Uh, RaQuel, I don't, I don't know if you've come across sociometer theory, um, in your study of psychology, but the, the basic concept is that, um, evolutionarily we have a status barometer that was very important to monitor social exclusion from groups, um, and that prehistorically, or at least in our, our more distant past, um, if you didn't read the fact that you were about to get ostracized, you might forfeit the opportunity to drink, eat, and live and survive to pass on your genes. And so we are very acutely sensitive to signals of do we belong? Are we respected? Are we important? Are we gonna maintain our standing in the group? That is no longer essential to survival, [laughs] and yet the, the barometer continues to monitor. Uh, we get this, you know, this ongoing constant feedback, um, thank you, social media [laughs] about whether we're liked and followed and validated or not. And I, I guess what this leaves me wondering is, like, what, what would a country look like that guaranteed the rights to life, liberty, and the opportunity to muddle through?

   4. ABAlain de Botton9:18

      Yeah. I was gonna a- I was gonna add that. Exactly. Um, the opportunity to be, to be sad, to, um, to fail. The opportunity to fail. The opportunity to succeed and inevitably at points to fail. Um, that's how we might amend the, uh, Declaration of Independence. [laughs]

6. 9:32 – 11:09

   Psychological utility and flourishing: using culture as practical guidance

   1. RHRaQuel Hopkins9:32

      People have to be able to hold the complexities of life. You have to be able to hold the h- the, the hard and the happiness. I always say that I guess in my pursuit of happiness, it's every day, not at the end of life, but every day, do I have any regrets how I've shown up? Did I lean into the things that I probably wanted to shy away from and/or avoid? And if I haven't, I don't have any regrets, and for that reason, whether today was a really tough day where I was experiencing grief, for me, it's still a day of happiness.

   2. ABAlain de Botton10:06

      You know, we human beings are so good at making life into a prison. We're so good at suffering for reasons that have no, you know, a priori basis. Um, and, you know, let's try and at least remove some of these blocks. People box themselves in, and then it's impossible to have a notion of utility that is what I think it should always be as well as other things, which is psychological utility, not just material utility, not just financial utility, but psychological utility. In other words, um, philosophy, art, literature, poetry, et cetera, as a route to what the ancient Greeks were unembarrassed to call eudaimonia, flourishing, um, a broad vision of flourishing. That's very different from saying, "What is this gonna earn?" Or, "Let's compare this to being a lawyer." It, it's, it's a- an attempt to say, um, if these things are higher, then part of what they should be doing is having a practical impact on our lives.

7. 11:09 – 13:40

   What snobbery really is—and Nietzsche’s “aristocracy of the soul”

   1. RHRaQuel Hopkins11:09

      Alain, you talked about people are so focused on the surface of life and not its deeper purpose, which, which goes into this whole concept of being a snob. And I'm curious to hear if you could elaborate, uh, or, or, or communicate to us what does it mean to be a snob?

   2. ABAlain de Botton11:31

      I, I, I define snobbery as a way of judging another human being according to a relatively small detail which then becomes the basis for a very rigid and very all-encompassing verdict on their value as a human being. So if you were to meet a, a, a so-called s- um, clothes snob, um, they would take one look at what you were wearing and would go, "You're not a, you're not a decent person because l- l- look at your jumper," or, "Look, look at your trousers," or, "Look at your shoes." And, and however much you tried to persuade this person that your soul was rich and complex- They wouldn't be interested because they'd, they'd just taken a look at you, and they, they, they don't wanna know any more. So it's very, it's very dispiriting to be on the receiving end of other people's snobbery because there's... you feel there's nothing you can say. You've been muted, as it were. Um, but, but that said, how can we re- rehabilitate, um, a certain kind of value system? Nietzsche in the 19th century, the philosopher Nietzsche, um, was wrestling with this. He proudly called himself a lover of the aristocracy, and everybody thought, "Oh my God, he... This, this guy likes people with titles and, um, you know, dukedoms or whatever." And he was doing it provocatively. Um, he called himself elitist, um, provocatively. He wanted to redefine what we could understand. He thought that the real elites were people who knew how to love, who knew how to be courageous, who knew how to dance, he was very keen on dancing, um, who knew how to, um, you know, be generous with their, their spirit. And, um, the, the... In other words, nothing to do with, you know, the standard, uh, European notion of an aristocracy. Almost an aristocracy of the soul, you might say. And I think that's a very beautiful idea, a very provocative idea.

   3. RHRaQuel Hopkins13:16

      How it resonates with me is I think about people will take a small portion of your life or demographics or these labels, and they have this complete vision of who you are, and I think it's very reductive in that sense. So I find that very interesting. I'll let Adam go ahead and, and jump in here because I know that he wanted to ask about status anxiety a little more.

8. 13:40 – 15:43

   Status games: dominance, virtue, and success—and why virtue is hardest to measure

   1. AGAdam Grant13:40

      Well, I, I was just thinking, you know, as [laughs] as, as we talk about snobbery, uh, the, the question of what are you a snob about is so interesting. Uh, so clothing came up. I think when talking about universities, uh, we're referring to intellectual snobbery, and I guess I'm, I'm reminded of in, in status research, when sociologists and psychologists try to break down what do you gain status on the basis of. Uh, I think Will Storr did a nice job summarizing basically the three kinds of status games that people play, which he called dominance, virtue, and success. And I think that, you know, all of us might have a little bit of an allergic reaction to the idea that status is, you know, is gained via dominance, uh, via shows of, you know, physical or interpersonal force, and maybe some concerns about how in modern society, status comes too much from, um, the, you know, the wealth and, um, maybe achievement markers of success, and maybe we would want status to come more from virtue, uh, to say being a person of character is what earns you respect and standing. I think the hard, the, the hard part of that is it's much harder to, harder to measure people's character. Um, I think the things that count most are the hardest to count. And so people instead say, "Look, I wanna be seen as important. I wanna gain respect, and the way I'm gonna do that is I'm gonna rack up accomplishments, and I'm gonna accumulate financial resources that allow me to signal my status to other people, as opposed to living in a world where my virtue is uncertain, [laughs] and nobody knows what I really stand for." And I wonder, is that one of the major drivers of status anxiety? In the past, when status was driven more by dominance, was it easier for people to gain it? Uh, because you knew who was stronger than whom. Um, in, in smaller societies and in a more tribal world, uh, was it easier to gauge virtue? Because we knew the same, you know, 100, 150 people, uh, and we all had repeated interactions with everyone. And do we live in a world now that essentially disincentivizes us, uh, to seek status via character?

9. 15:43 – 19:07

   Money as the universal ranking system—and why work-based identity harms mental health

   1. ABAlain de Botton15:43

      That's such a fas- fascinating analysis, and I think it has to be true. I mean, I'm thinking now of, um, de Tocqueville's thoughts in Democracy in America, where, you know, this, this French... He was an aristocrat, um, though a very disenfranchised one following the French Revolution. Um, but he goes to Unit- the new United States, and he realizes that, um, there is one de- determining factor of success in this country, and, and that is money. And he, he analyzes it as saying that this is the only point of agreement of a very disparate set of people. Um, and, and, and it's precisely as you say, that, that, uh, it's the most, um, clear, uh, you know, it's clear- clearly observable, um, uh, way of ranking people 'cause you... it's just a number. It's like how many zeros after your name, as it were. And, you know, he or she who has the greatest number, you know, is, uh, wi- wins. You know? And that's, that's the way it is. Whereas, as you say, precisely the, the virtues of character are harder to discern, and they rely on close-up, intimate knowledge. You know, which is why you get these fascinating dichotomies where somebody who may have made a lot of money finds themselves among their friends or among their intimates, um, having perhaps a more questionable reputation because these people have to sort of live among, among, uh, uh, this, this character. And they may find that, you know, actually in the kitchen and, uh, you know, at the, um, family gathering, this person has all sorts of deficiencies of, of character. Um, but, but that's not the way in which society generally operates, which is, you know, one of the first questions that anyone faces in a new social environment in the modern world is what do you do? And according to how you answer that question, that will be who you are. And, and of course, you're talking about mental illness. This literally drives people crazy because it means that our work is not just a source of income. It's also a source of respect, dignity, and honor, and that's hard to take, um, because, you know, it's hard enough to find a job that, you know, satisfies you and pays a decent wage. Um, but then if on top of it all, it also has to be the conduit to- Your kind of psychological assessment in, in your entire society, um, that becomes very difficult, which is why, you know, the, the French so- 19th century sociologist Emile Durkheim made this famous observation, very chilling observation, uh, that he said that, you know, in the modern world, that the, the, the, the post-religious, um, uh, capitalist world, when people suffer economically, they are much more inclined to take their own lives, um, than in pre-modern societies where a financial reversal is, is obviously unpleasant and regrettable. It doesn't have to be, um, the end of your sense of identity, um, in, in the group. Um, you are not necessarily what you do. You exist in, in other registers. So this is some of the difficulties of, of living in the modern world, and, and also explains, I think, why mental health, mental wellbeing might be particularly challenging in an age which, from many points of view, has so many more material advantages than the ages that have preceded it. Why, why survival, psychic survival is, is, um, especially challenging.

10. 19:07 – 20:15

    How status anxiety persists: chasing symbols, then moving the goalposts

    1. AGAdam Grant19:07

       Okay, so this ri- raises a question for both of you, which is I want to talk about how to manage status anxiety.

    2. ABAlain de Botton19:13

       Mm.

    3. AGAdam Grant19:13

       Um, so I think we've [laughs] we, we've established to some degree that, uh, we live in a world where there's both increasing clarity and increasing uncertainty about how to gain res- respect and standing. And, uh, the, the, the basic strategy that I watch my students at Wharton follow, uh, way too often actually, I would say the vast majority of our undergrads and our MBAs think that the key to st- solving status anxiety is basically to accumulate as many of the objective symbols as possible that will send a clear message to other people, "I've made it. I'm important. I have a fancy title. I have a corner office. I'm rich. I'm powerful." And then [laughs] at some point, the status anxiety doesn't go away. It just morphs because now they have a reference group of people who share their titles and share their wealth, and they have to stand out in that group. And so what are the alternative ways of managing status anxiety other than saying, "I have to get as much status as I can"?

11. 20:15 – 23:33

    Value resets that loosen the MBA mindset: illness, children, nature, and dependence

    1. RHRaQuel Hopkins20:15

       I think that the greatest thing that we can do as humans is learn to accept the world and people as they are and a- as it presents itself, and then you start to work on those virtues that you say align with what your values are. I like to think about it from the perspective that life is complicated, and if life is complicated, everyone else is as, uh, complicated and imperfect as I am. Think that going after sta- status anxiet- anxiety is a part of people getting to a place in their lives where they start to ask more of those existentialism questions, and they're like, "All right, how do I start to contribute in a much more meaningful way?" But the only way to do that sometimes is, one, to go through the process, and then I think that once you've gone through the process, you kinda circle back, and you're like, "Well, it's, it's all complicated. Everyone is as, as, as, as complicated as I am." So for me, it's, it's, it's the interconnectedness of all things.

    2. ABAlain de Botton21:16

       It's very beautiful. If you think of the, of the experiences that people go through that, that loosen them from the standard MBA obsession, um, it might be, um, a severe illness. W- w- why? What's the relationship between a severe illness and, and, and a, a questioning of values? Um, partly it's got to do with the idea that we're recognizing our dependence on something that's completely out of our control or largely out of our control, which is our bodies, our, our biological natures, which do not subscribe, um, to the MBA vision of success. I mean, it, it doesn't matter how much you've accumulated. Children are a fascinating challenge to this system. Um, animals. Um, great thing about buying a dog is that the dog is, again, very happy to see you and will look at you through very different eyes. Um, the natural world in general. It's always amazed me that the United States, which in some ways has such an MBA view of the world, also contains the most extraordinary landscapes and, um, most sublime elements of nature. I mean, you know, if you think of the New Mexican or Arizona desert, that's a very different place to, um, New York, Philadelphia, uh, Los Angeles, et cetera. And not, not just in terms of, uh, visible, but in terms of what the thing is speaking to you about. What, what matters? What are we, what are we doing on this planet, et cetera? So some of it just depends on what you're looking at, um, in your imagination or out of the window. Um, and on and on. Uh, so I, I, I think most... It, it's important to say, um, it's about stages of life. I don't think that anyone can go through life without at some point shuddering before the altar of the MBA view of life. It's just so dominant. Uh, it determines so much, I mean, the prices that we have to pay for things. So let's, let's not delude ourselves into thinking, you know, we can just sidestep this easily. But I don't think anyone goes through life without a set of experiences that also severely leads them to challenge that MBA vision, and we can reverse engineer from that and, and, you know, we can make a list. Think what are the things that draw people towards another vision of the good life.

12. 23:33 – 26:34

    Balancing virtue and success: identity questions, burnout, and Jane Austen’s middle path

    1. AGAdam Grant23:33

       So what, what does that look like practically? Alain, uh, uh, I guess one of the things that a lot of us have struggled with is helping people realize that there's another false dichotomy here, that you don't have to choose necessarily between [laughs] virtue and success as bases of status, that if you think about the right ways to cultivate character, you can do that in a way that allows you to still, um, you know, succeed at your job, rise up a hierarchy, um, earn a living, support your family. I, I still see a lot of people subscribing to the myth. So any thoughts about how to get past that?

    2. RHRaQuel Hopkins24:12

       I think of two questions: Who do you want to become, and what do you want to consistently produce? And I think that when you're asking people who do they want to become, I think it sort of forces you to find the balance between chasing the status and/or the success while also looking at your, your character as, as well. I know that for me, when I think of like who do I want to become, it's almost like this inner conviction that it can't be all about success. You have to be able to find the balance between also giving back and not chasing those things. And then the other thing is what do you wanna consistently produce? The first thing that comes to my mind is burnout. Well, if you're always chasing success, then you run the exposure of burning yourself out. But if you find the balance between the success and then building your character, it's almost like it's, it's the perfect recipe for creating a, a meaningful, a meaningful life. So I think it's at the forefront. Like, organizations can ask those questions, "Who do you want to become?" Not necessarily, "What do you want to be doing in the next three to five years?"

    3. ABAlain de Botton25:22

       You know, I think a lot of the myth comes down to, uh, early Christianity and this idea that you really have to make a choice between wealth and virtue. Um, you can't have both. Um, but as you rightly say, um, w- why not? The ultimate guide I've always found on this is Jane Austen, English 18th century novelist. Jane Austen, who comes down to a very wise, it's, sounds almost dumb in its wisdom, but it's, it's very sophisticated, much more sophisticated than what we've got now, um, which is, um, a good relationship, um, does, is helped along by some money. If you have, if you have some money, that really helps your emotional life 'cause it means you're not forever, you know, scrambling for basic necessities. If you've got a bit of money, that's really helpful. However, Jane Austen is extremely tough on any of her characters, and there are quite a few in most of her novels, who love money too much. And as soon as you love money too much, you're in, uh, also another kind of trouble. So you got trouble on both sides of the spectrum. You don't love it enough, or you don't re- respect it enough, and you respect it too much, and that's such a beautifully... It s- it sounds like common sense. It's, we've really lost the plot on this one.

13. 26:34 – 30:34

    Snobbery in modern form: therapy as status, rigid labels, and the practice of humility

    1. AGAdam Grant26:34

       So I, I wanna come back to the snobbery discussion then and ask you both if you're snobs about anything.

    2. ABAlain de Botton26:41

       I, I, I think we can't escape it. The question is what? Um, I mean, look, I, I'll, I'll tell you one, uh, piece of snobbery that I have. Um, if I'm in a conversation with someone and the topic go, goes to psychotherapies, therapy, and someone goes, "Therapy's hopeless. You... I, I hate the whole thing," I have a snobbish reaction. Yeah. I'm like, "Hmm." I find it a little bit harder to connect. I'm a little bit more wary. Um, yeah, I, I'm passing a judgment here. Um, you know, I, I'm, I wouldn't die on that hill, but, um, but, but, uh, maybe I'll take a, a small injury on that hill.

    3. AGAdam Grant27:18

       [laughs] It sounded like, Alain, you're a, you're a snob about people who are snobs against therapy.

    4. ABAlain de Botton27:25

       That's right. I mean, it, it sounds unpleasant. Look, I mean, there are lots of good reasons why one might be suspicious of therapy. Some therapists are not great. You might have had a bad experience. Everyone's got a personal take on this. But if, you know, the thing about snobbery is that it is, it's a quick way of judging, and sometimes one does need to have a quick way of judging, and that might be, that might be one of them.

    5. AGAdam Grant27:45

       But RaQuel, people are starting to use having a therapist as a status symbol, aren't they?

    6. RHRaQuel Hopkins27:51

       Yeah, in a, in a lot of ways it's become very performative. And I was thinking about what am I a snob about. I am a snob about when, whether we're questioning religion or professionals, I'm a snob about that. I'm like, "Well, why do we do it this way? Does it have to be this way? Is therapy the only gateway to growth? Can you use coaching? What does it look like to create communities to further your learning and, and education?" But I believe in therapy, but I think that where we've lost the plot is understanding what therapy is supposed to help us facilitate.

    7. AGAdam Grant28:30

       Yeah, it [laughs] it makes me think of, I've heard people say, "I won't date anyone who's not in therapy."

    8. RHRaQuel Hopkins28:36

       Oh, yeah.

    9. AGAdam Grant28:38

       [laughs]

    10. RHRaQuel Hopkins28:39

        Which doesn't neces-

    11. AGAdam Grant28:40

        I'm sorry. Wait a minute

    12. RHRaQuel Hopkins28:40

        ... which doesn't mean a whole lot because people can learn from just having a conversation in the same way that we're having right now. You don't need therapy in order to grow, and I think that's probably a big myth that's out there. I don't know that you have to do anything.

    13. ABAlain de Botton28:59

        Yeah.

    14. RHRaQuel Hopkins28:59

        Um, you can try it. Be curious. Be open to it. Don't close your mind off to it.

    15. ABAlain de Botton29:04

        That's the problem of snobbery, is that it's an instant blanket, rather rigid judgment. And as you say, as soon as you start to examine it, you start picking holes in it, and you go, "Well, that person tried therapy and, you know, they're a monster. And, uh, and this one hasn't had therapy and they're hugely thoughtful," et cetera, et cetera. So, um, so that's why one needs to hold judgments very lightly. To know that you don't know about a human being is, I think, the gateway to real tolerance. You know, s- someone seems to be like this, but are they really? Are they? We don't know. Maybe you don't know. You just don't know. That is, that is the beginning of a kind of generosity of spirit, I think.

    16. RHRaQuel Hopkins29:43

        Maybe I have a few, uh, snobbish ways because as I was listening to what, uh, he was just saying, what came to my mind is, uh, this concept that we do in therapy which k- kind of comes from like the, the Freud age. It's like, "Well, you've been through this," or, "You've had this experience with your parents," and then we make that to be all that you are in a lot of ways, and that just drives me nuts. [laughs] I'm like, "Well, couldn't they be more than what This set of experiences have shown them, so we're so complex as human beings to make this blanket statement that you're this way because you had this experience with your mother, you had this experience with your father. I don't think it opens us up to the richness of all that life is offering us.

    17. AGAdam Grant30:32

        I can't disagree with that.

14. 30:34 – 35:26

    Recovering the tragic mindset: gallows humor, empathy, and appreciating daffodils early

    1. ABAlain de Botton30:34

       I mean, let's l- you know, let's look back at history. So the ancient Greeks, you know, their, their highest art form is tragedy. And tragedy, tragic theater, um, which... They're- the whole societies were built around festivals where people would put on tragic plays. And, and the notion of a tragedy is you follow someone who's basically decent, who makes a few mistakes, and their life turns into the aforementioned tragedy. Um, and the notion there is if you watch people's lives like this, you will feel pity for them. You will feel sorrow. You'll feel empathy for them and fear for yourself. This is what Aristotle defines the effect of tragedy as. Um, pity, pity for the other, sor- uh, uh, worry for yourself that, that, that this may happen to you. And, and the idea is summed up really ultimately what this is a route to is kindness. It's sort of like this is the way in which people learn to be kind. They go, "Oh my God. Someone else is suffering." And then there but for the grace of God go I, and I might... That's gonna be the way I go, too. This is the human condition. We've really lost the tragic mindset, which is such a generous mind, a dark but generous mindset. I mean, I think, you know, Adam, you were saying, you know, counterintuitive bits of wisdom. Um, gallows humor. Let's hear it for gallows humor. What is gallows humor? Humor that you use on the way to the gallows, to the way, way to be executed. You know, there was a tradition of, of laughter, um, uh, you know, on your way to your death, and I love that. I love that. It's fantastic. It's so human and humane. It's like that's the kind of humor we need, that dark humor that doesn't deny what it is to be on this planet but, but at the same time, you know, laughs. It, in other words, is tender at the absurdity of it all and invites communal gathering around the mess.

    2. AGAdam Grant32:33

       I think Mel Brooks put it best when he said, "Tragedy is when I cut my finger, and comedy is when you fall in an open sewer and die."

    3. ABAlain de Botton32:42

       [laughs] That's very good.

    4. RHRaQuel Hopkins32:44

       Laughter today can, can for, for some people, uh, you hear it's a defense mechanism. And, uh, to your point, it's not always a defense mechanism. It's one way, uh, I would say an adaptive coping skill that is very necessary, and we don't have to make it good and/or bad, uh, because people laugh their way through pain or tragedy.

    5. ABAlain de Botton33:08

       I mean, let's hear it for adaptive mechanisms. Nothing wrong with those things. I mean, there are better and worse ones, but-

    6. AGAdam Grant33:13

       Mm

    7. ABAlain de Botton33:13

       ... yeah. I mean, the whole of philosophy is essentially a, should be a giant adaptive mech- mechanism. What is literature? What is art other than a giant adaptive mechanism? And, and, you know, to add to that, happiness gains its intensity from an acquaintance with, with grief.

    8. AGAdam Grant33:30

       Mm-hmm.

    9. ABAlain de Botton33:30

       I mean, I sometimes think of this in relation to children's stories, which are often about very heartwarming stories about love and family and kindness, et cetera. And I don't know if you've had this experience, but, um, when you read these stories as a child, you think, "Well, oh well. It's quite nice." You know? The... Sometimes as an adult, especially if you've been through dark stuff, you read one of these stories to a kid, and you have to fight back the tears. And you cry not 'cause it's sad, because it's so beautiful. Because it's something so tender and lovely in a world which you know at this point in your life is really pretty tough. And so there's a way in which the more you know the world is tough, the more its tender and fragile and delightful elements become not just nice like they always were, but amazing, lifesaving. Uh, you know, which is why past 70 you don't really catch a person walking past some flowers without a little bit of appreciation. At 20, no one notices flowers. Why on Earth would you notice flowers? You got your whole life ahead of you, got your big plans. You're gonna be the, the CEO, the president. You're gonna take over the world, et cetera. By 70, uh, good luck to you. You know, uh, something pretty amazing about a daffodil. Let's hear it for the daffodils. So maybe we can learn that lesson a little bit earlier, too, because it'll actually make our lives more cheerful.

    10. AGAdam Grant34:53

        I can get behind that.

    11. ABAlain de Botton34:54

        Good. Daffodil Appreciation Society coming up.

    12. AGAdam Grant34:57

        [laughs]

    13. ABAlain de Botton34:59

        Let's do it.

    14. AGAdam Grant34:59

        Excellent. Well, I wanna thank you both for joining us today.

    15. RHRaQuel Hopkins35:02

        Thank you, Adam, for making this happen.

    16. ABAlain de Botton35:05

        So kind. Thanks to both of you. [upbeat music]

Episode duration: 35:27