How you can do more for others with Rutger Bregman | ReThinking with Adam Grant | TED

1. 0:00 – 0:47

   Intro

   1. RBRutger Bregman0:00

      I think that there's been a lot of dunking on shame and guilt in the pop psychology world, but I'm like, no. Like, I'm a pluralist. We need the whole spectrum of human emotions, and we've evolved to, to be able to feel shame. We are one of the very few species in the whole animal kingdom with the ability to blush. There's probably a reason for that, and that's probably also useful in some situations. [upbeat music]

   2. AGAdam Grant0:23

      This season, we're talking to Rutger Bregman about ambition and idealism, and how to combine the two. Rutger Bregman is a Dutch historian and bestselling author. His new book is called Moral Ambition, and he's also the founder of the School for Moral Ambition, an organization of driven entrepreneurs and idealists looking to combine forces for good. I hosted him in the Authors@Wharton series for a discussion and debate about how we can do more for others.

2. 0:47 – 2:45

   Morality and ambition

   1. AGAdam Grant0:47

      Let me start by just saying when you sent me an early PDF of this book-

   2. RBRutger Bregman0:52

      Mm-hmm

   3. AGAdam Grant0:52

      ... I was completely fascinated by the idea that morality and ambition could go hand-in-hand.

   4. RBRutger Bregman0:57

      Yeah.

   5. AGAdam Grant0:57

      Because normally, we think about them as either independent or even opposites.

   6. RBRutger Bregman1:02

      Yeah.

   7. AGAdam Grant1:02

      Like, ambitious people lack morals in American society, frequently. What gave you the idea that these two things could actually coexist?

   8. RBRutger Bregman1:09

      I was just fascinated by the, the great moral pioneers of the past. I wanted to write this big book about the abolitionists, the suffragettes, the civil right campaigners, the animal rights activists. Uh, maybe you know that book by Peter Singer, The Expanding Circle, in which he makes a philosophical argument that over the centuries our moral circle has expanded, and that that has been one of the main drivers of moral progress. And I wanted to write the historical version of that, and basically tell the stories of the people who did that. And then I started working on the first part, about abolitionism, and I learned so many lessons about who these people were and what they had in common. And I indeed discovered that they had something that I started to call moral ambition, which is this rare combination of the idealism of an activist and the ambition of an entrepreneur. And when that comes together, the magic happens.

   9. AGAdam Grant1:58

      I, I think it's a, it's a brilliant way to get people who both have clear principles and also a lot of drive to think about how to put those two things together. When I was reading Moral Ambition, I was thinking about Enron, one of the great corporate scandals of, what, early 21st century. I remember one of the sort of the foreshadowing comments that, that Enron was gonna go down in flames was Ken Lay, the, the longtime CEO, uh, he had a comment from his business school professor, if I remember correctly, that said, "Very ambitious, maybe too ambitious."

   10. RBRutger Bregman2:30

       Mm.

   11. AGAdam Grant2:31

       And I thought, like, if you study those cases, the s- the solution to the excess ambition problem is to dial down ambition.

   12. RBRutger Bregman2:38

       Mm-hmm.

   13. AGAdam Grant2:38

       And I think what you're encouraging us to do instead is redirect it.

   14. RBRutger Bregman2:41

       Exactly. Exactly.

   15. AGAdam Grant2:41

       So talk to us about how. Like, what does it mean to pursue moral ambition?

3. 2:45 – 4:10

   Abolitionism

   1. RBRutger Bregman2:45

      You know, I st- I studied the British abolitionist movement. I spent a lot of time studying that one, and the reason I was so fascinated by it was that most, uh, movements against the slave trade and against slavery were utter failures. So I'm from the Netherlands, and in the Netherlands, it was a bunch of Calvinists who got nothing done. You know, they were idealistic, but not very ambitious and not very effective. In France, it was a bunch of writers and intellectuals. Well, you can predict how much they got done. Uh, in, in Portugal, there was pretty much nothing. In Spain, there was very little. In, in the US, obviously it took a civil war in the end, and abolitionism was extremely unpopular before that. It was only in Britain that it became this huge movement, and the interesting thing is that it started among elites. It was a, a counter-cultural revolution among elites who wanted to redefine what it means to be successful. The British Society for the Abolition of the Slave Trade was founded by 12 individuals. One was a writer, one was a lawyer, but 10 out of 12, they were entrepreneurs, people who had built their own companies, who had scaled their own companies, who knew how to get shit done. But the reason we remember them today is not because they were rich. No, the reason we remember them is because they used what they had, their capital, their network, their talent, basically their precious resources and their precious time on this earth to make a massive difference, and that, that really is what moral ambition is. It's not about just saying, "Oh, you, you should check your privilege." No, use your privilege. Use what you have, uh, to make a big difference.

4. 4:10 – 7:08

   How to balance your ambitions

   1. AGAdam Grant4:10

      So how do you think about the problem of, like, I have career goals that I want to-

   2. RBRutger Bregman4:14

      Mm

   3. AGAdam Grant4:14

      ... achieve. I want to be conventionally successful.

   4. RBRutger Bregman4:17

      Mm-hmm.

   5. AGAdam Grant4:17

      I want to be able to support my family, and also now you're saying I need to be ambitious about the amount of good that I do.

   6. RBRutger Bregman4:22

      You can take things too far, right? We don't want all of you getting a burnout or, like, give all your w- wealth away so that you have to live on a, under a bridge somewhere. Sure, there are limits, but I think that a lot of people can actually do a lot more. I mean, you're a psychologist, right? We know that there are diminishing returns to certain status symbols, and for me, like, with wealth, is, has always seemed so obvious to me, like, that this is, like, a fairly shallow way of pursuing success. And at some point, I was, also personally, I was like, "Okay, but, like, what's the next thing? Like, wh- what... How can I really leave my mark?"

   7. AGAdam Grant4:57

      So our own Matt Killingsworth has published some research showing that, like, we used to always say, like, yeah, income has diminishing returns for happiness.

   8. RBRutger Bregman5:06

      Mm.

   9. AGAdam Grant5:06

      His data suggests that was wrong.

   10. RBRutger Bregman5:08

       Mm-hmm.

   11. AGAdam Grant5:08

       And in fact, like, [laughs] people who get richer and richer actually tend to get a little happier and happier.

   12. RBRutger Bregman5:12

       Sure, I totally believe that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   13. AGAdam Grant5:13

       You do believe that?

   14. RBRutger Bregman5:13

       Yeah, yeah. But-

   15. AGAdam Grant5:14

       You're, you're saying we should forego that happiness.

   16. RBRutger Bregman5:15

       Yeah, yeah. But it's not, like, purely linear, right?

   17. AGAdam Grant5:18

       No, it, it probably-

   18. RBRutger Bregman5:19

       Yeah

   19. AGAdam Grant5:19

       ... does taper a little bit.

   20. RBRutger Bregman5:20

       Yeah, yeah, and at some point it's, like, from a societal perspective, it's much more rational to give it to other people, right? [laughs] For, for whom it will be a much bigger benefit. So I'm not like, "Oh," like, "you shouldn't care about money. You shouldn't care about material possessions." Uh, I mean, I like my new shoes. Uh, I bought them for today. But yeah, at some point it becomes a little bit shallow, I would say, and I guess that's also my message to really ambitious people out there is, like, look, if you, if, if this is really what you want out of life, right? You really care about, you know, going on a ski holiday as, as often as possible, having the biggest possible house, you know, being the richest, uh, person in, in your circle of friends, then sure, you live that life, right? This is a free country. You have the freedom to be boring. Um, but moral ambition is an invitation to do something much more interesting, uh, and much more meaningful with your limited time on this earth. Because this is true for everyone, we're gonna die, right? That, that for me [laughs] is the most essential fact of life. It's very short. That's also one of the main messages in this book. Like, no matter how wealthy you are, your, your precious time on this earth, that's, that's your most valuable resource. And how do you wanna be remembered?

   21. AGAdam Grant6:28

       So I, I found that to be a really compelling argument, and it reminded me a little bit of some research that Jeremy Freimer led years ago looking at, like what, what do moral exemplars do differently from the rest of us? And not surprisingly, the people that we tend to put on a pedestal as role models tended to be much higher in concern for others than their peers.

   22. RBRutger Bregman6:46

       Yeah. Yeah.

   23. AGAdam Grant6:46

       But they were also higher in ambition-

   24. RBRutger Bregman6:48

       That's right

   25. AGAdam Grant6:48

       ... than their peers. Um, and I think that, that is the fundamental point that you're making here.

   26. RBRutger Bregman6:52

       Yeah.

   27. AGAdam Grant6:53

       I think it gets really complicated-

   28. RBRutger Bregman6:54

       Mm

   29. AGAdam Grant6:54

       ... when it starts to get practical.

   30. RBRutger Bregman6:56

       Hm. Okay.
5. 7:08 – 11:08

   How do you know you're doing good?

   1. AGAdam Grant7:08

      If you take the, the call to do more seriously, how do you know whether you're actually doing better?

   2. RBRutger Bregman7:13

      I would say that this book is grounded in a philosophical, ethical tradition that goes back all the way to the abolitionists who deeply believe that everyone's equal. For me, it's more grounded in history. I see a certain moral progress in the last two centuries. If you believe in that deep equality of, of all humans on earth, like that we all have the same dignity and the same worth, then yeah, we're not nearly done yet be- because we still live in a world where 15,000 kids die every day and where 85% of the world population lives under the US poverty line. You know, it's such an unjust and unequal world, and there's still a lot of low-hanging fruit that brilliant, ambitious, driven people can do to make this world, not a little bit better. I've always hated that phrase. Like, "Oh, make the world a little bit better." No. Make the world wildly better. That's what we can do.

   3. AGAdam Grant8:02

      Are you suggesting then that our Penn graduates should not go into banking and consulting?

   4. SPSpeaker8:07

      [laughs]

   5. RBRutger Bregman8:08

      Well, they should be very, very careful about it. Let, let's put it like that. So a good friend of mine went to Oxford University and, you know, a couple of years ago, he got an offer from McKinsey, and he always calls it the Bermuda Triangle of talent. So you've got consultancy, corporate law, and finance. It's this dark chasm that sucks up s- so much talent, and we never hear from these people again.

   6. SPSpeaker8:33

      [laughs]

   7. RBRutger Bregman8:33

      And they bec- and they become incredibly boring. And once they, they're past the age of 30, you know, they've got the mortgage, they've got a house, and you're, you're at a birthday party or whatever and, like, you don't wanna... Okay, maybe I'm a bit too blunt now. Um-

   8. SPSpeaker8:45

      [laughs]

   9. RBRutger Bregman8:45

      You know, we Dutch, we're known to be blunt.

   10. AGAdam Grant8:47

       You did say earlier, we have the freedom to be boring. So are you trying to take away that freedom?

   11. RBRutger Bregman8:50

       That's true. That's true. So then, no, no, no. No, don't wanna take that away, that, that freedom at all. I'm just warning you. [laughs] There is light at the end of the tunnel. So I co-founded an organization called The School for Moral Ambition, and we like to see ourselves as the Robin Hoods of talent. So we started in Europe last year. We have these fellowship programs. Very, very hard to get into, but yeah, we recruit people who have about 10 years of working experience, and some of them have indeed come from McKinsey and have now been liberated by us. Uh [laughs]

   12. SPSpeaker9:20

       [laughs]

   13. RBRutger Bregman9:21

       They're very happy about it.

   14. AGAdam Grant9:22

       Do, do you think though, I'm... W- I, I have an easier time making the case for consulting than banking. I think that the learning and development systems that management consulting firms have built are, are quite valuable early-

   15. RBRutger Bregman9:33

       Yeah

   16. AGAdam Grant9:33

       ... stage in a career, especially if you don't know what you wanna do, and we've seen lots of consultants go on to do great things. Um, but even, even in the banking world, right? I think about, um, great leaders like Jacqueline Novogratz who-

   17. RBRutger Bregman9:43

       Yeah

   18. AGAdam Grant9:43

       ... [laughs] took her investment banking expertise and built the Acumen Fund.

   19. RBRutger Bregman9:46

       Absolutely, yeah.

   20. AGAdam Grant9:47

       So it seems like what you're advocating for is not against that necessarily.

   21. RBRutger Bregman9:52

       No. No, absolutely. There's, there's a, there's a really good argument to be made that especially early in your, in your career, you need that career capital, right? You wanna work with the best and brightest. And, and again, I, you know, I come from a leftist progressive background, and people like me often have a discomfort in acknowledging that there are vast differences in just how talented and effective people are. I mean, I, I do think we should broaden our definition of talent. I don't think that this country or, like, universities like this one, they're not meritocracies, right? You often have to be lucky to get in in all kinds of ways. But there are differences, and it's often power law shaped, right? So a- any venture capitalist will tell you that there's often, like, this one investment that will generate most of the return of the whole fund, and I think that's, that's often true in the talent space as well. So it does make sense if you're, if you're young and really ambitious, that you wanna go to a place where you feel really challenged, right? You wanna work 70, 80 hours a week, you know? You wanna work with people who, who are really ambitious and, and wanna work for the big projects. So I, I think that is an uncomfortable truth, truth to acknowledge that sometimes... I mean, there are awesome NGOs out there of course, but they have that deep yearning to do hard work, and they don't always find it in that space.

   22. AGAdam Grant11:07

       I've had the privilege

6. 11:08 – 15:30

   Investing in your moral ambition

   1. AGAdam Grant11:08

      of teaching some of the students who are here with us today.

   2. RBRutger Bregman11:10

      Yeah.

   3. AGAdam Grant11:10

      And there's a message I've tried to deliver to them a few times, uh, that I wanna get your reaction to, and, and maybe your version of it will land more effectively than mine has.

   4. RBRutger Bregman11:18

      Okay. [laughs]

   5. AGAdam Grant11:18

      But the, the question from those who are morally ambitious-

   6. RBRutger Bregman11:21

      Yeah

   7. AGAdam Grant11:22

      ... um, from those who are tempted to go to a nonprofit or an NGO or to build a social enterprise.

   8. RBRutger Bregman11:27

      Yeah.

   9. AGAdam Grant11:27

      They are very impatient generally, and they tend to come by office hours and say, like, "I wanna go and do that immediately." And my reaction to them consistently is, "What's the rush?" I think the single most important investment you can make at the beginning of your career is in your learning and growth.

   10. RBRutger Bregman11:42

       Mm.

   11. AGAdam Grant11:42

       And so that means you should not join the organization that you think is gonna do the most good in years one or two. You should join the organization that's gonna prepare you to do the most good in years 10 and 20 and 30. And I get so much resistance to that, and the, th- really the only success I've had in, in pushing back against the pushback has been to say something along the following, like, "Why did you come to Penn? You've chosen to invest in your learning."

   12. RBRutger Bregman12:05

       Mm.

   13. AGAdam Grant12:05

       "Why should that investment end the day you graduate?"

   14. RBRutger Bregman12:08

       Mm-hmm.

   15. AGAdam Grant12:09

       So help me out here. What is the more effective version of this argument?

   16. RBRutger Bregman12:13

       So a couple of things to keep in mind. Work isn't just work, right? It, it change- changes you as, as a person. So there was this move... It still exists, the, the effective altruism movement, and these people made the argument, what is it, more than a decade ago now that you, you should actually go into finance because you can earn a shitload of money and then donate that to highly effective charities. And, you know, it seems like a really reasonable argument. The, the pushback here, though, could be that finance is such a, how do you say that, problematic environment that it changes you as a person, so you may not be the same person a decade later. And then obviously, well, we all know what came out of that. Sam Bankman-Fried is the most notorious example, who was one of the earlier earning to givers and now in prison. Uh.

   17. AGAdam Grant12:56

       I would like to think that's a self-selection effect more than a socialization effect, that maybe the kinds of people who are drawn to some of these fields are-

   18. RBRutger Bregman13:05

       Mm

   19. AGAdam Grant13:05

       ... more inclined to have their, their values or their decisions corrupt.

   20. RBRutger Bregman13:08

       Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

   21. AGAdam Grant13:09

       But-

   22. RBRutger Bregman13:09

       That's maybe true. There's, there's a good argument to be made that this can actually be done, uh, but it... what you also need is a very powerful community, that you're still idealistic, right? That you don't change too much as a person, that you don't get used to a certain lifestyle. That's also, also honestly one of the reasons why we, why we co-founded this organization, the School for Moral Ambition, because we, we wanna build a little bit of a, well, in the book I call it a cult, of, of, of like-minded ambitious idealists. I've got one story in the book about a school in London that is sometimes described as the Hogwarts for do-gooders. It's, it's a little bit li- like Y Combinator, the organization that, uh, is, like, for the most, uh, successful or, uh-

   23. AGAdam Grant13:48

       Startup accelerator

   24. RBRutger Bregman13:49

       ... exactly. Um, and they're like the nonprofit version of that. So they launch these high impact NGOs. Also very, very hard to get into. The founder of that school, I also asked him this question, like, "Shouldn't people wait for a bit?" And he was like, "No. No time to waste. If you're, if you really have that energy, if you're super ambitious, if you're super idealistic, like, do it now."

   25. AGAdam Grant14:08

       I think if you have that clarity of vision, absolutely.

   26. RBRutger Bregman14:10

       Yeah.

   27. AGAdam Grant14:11

       Right? I, I think... I'm thinking more of the person who says, "Look, I wanna do good, but I don't exactly know what that looks like yet. So shouldn't I join an organization that's heavily socially conscious?" I'm like, maybe.

   28. RBRutger Bregman14:21

       Mm.

   29. AGAdam Grant14:21

       But don't you wanna build the knowledge and skills and network that will allow you to do that in a more meaningful way?

   30. RBRutger Bregman14:25

       Hmm. A- again, there's something to be said for that, but if I can push back a- again a little bit, um, at our organization, we, we believe in the, the Gandalf-Frodo model of doing good. So Gandalf never really asked Frodo, "Hey, Frodo, what's your passion?" Right? Uh, he was like, "This needs to happen. Throw the ring into the mountain. That's at the top of the world's to-do list." Um, and I think that's also very much what moral ambition is about. If you don't really know what needs to happen, just find yourself a Gandalf, right? You don't need to go out in the world and, you know, spend years figuring out who you are, gazing at your navel, right? Just ask some really smart people. Like, there are a lot of Gandalfs out there who've done a huge amount of prioritization research, as it's called in social science, and, like, we have the world's to-do list, and you j- can just go start, you know, at the very top of it and make a difference.
7. 15:30 – 17:10

   Moral responsibility vs. sanctimony

   1. AGAdam Grant15:30

      So one of the things I was, I was really grappling with as I read the book and that I've been thinking about ever since is the line between, um, moral responsibility and sanctimoniousness.

   2. RBRutger Bregman15:40

      Mm.

   3. AGAdam Grant15:41

      I think there's a real risk when you tell other people to be morally ambitious of leaving them feeling judged.

   4. RBRutger Bregman15:47

      Yeah.

   5. AGAdam Grant15:47

      How do you think about navigating that?

   6. RBRutger Bregman15:49

      You, you've probably have experienced that as well, you know, sitting in class, uh, as a, as a student or maybe in high school, learning for the first time about some of these terrible periods in history and then wondering, like, "What would I have done?" Well, today is the day to find out. We are living through one of those moments in history, and this is a time when characters are being tested and when you can basically show who you really are. So this is really one of those moments. So if you're, if you're, like, worried of, of being seen as too sanctimonious or, like, a do-gooder, I don't know. That's, that's... like, that would be, like, the last worry [laughs] on my, on my mind right now. Also, because honestly I think doing good can be contagious. Uh, it's one of the s- simplest, but I think also one of the most important insights in the book, is that you don't do good things because you are a good person. It's the other way around. You become a good person by doing good things, and then that can be infectious as well because people see you being bold, being brave, being courageous, and they're like, "Hey, maybe I can do that as well." And then it could spread like a virus.

   7. AGAdam Grant16:55

      I mean, I lo- I love that idea. I think it, you know, it speaks to, um, what Jonathan Haidt has called moral elevation.

   8. RBRutger Bregman17:01

      Mm.

   9. AGAdam Grant17:01

      Witnessing somebody else engaging in an act of moral excellence-

   10. RBRutger Bregman17:05

       Mm

   11. AGAdam Grant17:05

       ... and that lifting us up and, and making us more interested in doing the same.

   12. RBRutger Bregman17:08

       Yeah.

   13. AGAdam Grant17:08

       I wanna push back, though,

8. 17:10 – 23:58

   Fighting learned helplessness

   1. AGAdam Grant17:10

      on, on your claim that we're seeing a lot of cowardice right now.

   2. RBRutger Bregman17:12

      Hmm. Okay.

   3. AGAdam Grant17:12

      'Cause I'm not seeing a lot of cowards.

   4. RBRutger Bregman17:14

      Mm.

   5. AGAdam Grant17:14

      I'm seeing a lot of people who are, are falling victim to what our own psychologist Marty Seligman called learned helplessness.

   6. RBRutger Bregman17:20

      Hmm.

   7. AGAdam Grant17:21

      The basic idea is that you get feedback from your environment that what you do doesn't make a difference-

   8. RBRutger Bregman17:27

      Hmm

   9. AGAdam Grant17:27

      ... and you overgeneralize a conclusion that nothing I do makes a difference, so why try? And I think that's not a crisis of cowardice. I think it's a crisis of both confidence and also of, of mechanisms for organizing and, and having collective impact.

   10. RBRutger Bregman17:43

       Hmm.

   11. AGAdam Grant17:43

       So I think it's a, maybe a collective action problem, and I'd love to hear you talk a little bit about, like, what is the antidote to learned helpless- helplessness for people who 10 years ago might have been morally ambitious, or five years ago might have been morally ambitious, and now are saying, "Nothing worked. Why try?"

   12. RBRutger Bregman17:59

       I would say that this is a moment where if you have any kind of comfort still today, you know, you're like, "Oh, it's, it's very bad when I switch on the news, but it's not, you know-

   13. AGAdam Grant18:11

       It doesn't affect me

   14. RBRutger Bregman18:11

       ... it's not really affecting me," then you are the, exactly the kind of person who should- Do something today. That, that for me is, is, is very much the, the main audience also for, for Moral Ambition. That's why I'm glad to be here today, is like if you, if you have that power, if you have that we call privilege sometimes, or you have the talent or the skillset, et cetera, well, use it to make a difference. And I'm not really sure whether I buy your difference between learned helpless- uh, learned helplessness and cowardice. I mean, it's gotta start somewhere, right? Someone has got to break through that collective action problem. I, I've got a whole chapter in the book about resistance heroes during the Second World War. Like, why did some people have the courage to stand up and help persecuted Jews? And why did they risk their own lives, um, to do that? And I always assume that there must have been some kind of psychology of the resistance hero, and indeed there's been quite a lot of research into this area. There was one big project a couple of decades ago by Samuel and Pearl Oliner, who wrote this big book called The Altruistic Personality Project. They couldn't really find anything. Like, the effect sizes were very small. There wasn't really anything like the altruistic personality. Uh, but then later researchers did find this one really interesting thing, is that there was this one very predictive factor. Like, were you asked to join the resistance? Were you asked to frankly risk your own life to help someone else? And then in most cases, people said, "Yes." Yes, of course there was some selection effect going on, like you wouldn't ask anyone, but this also explains why resistance was a very local phenomenon, right? It wasn't evenly distributed across the country, but you could really see it popping up in certain villages, for example, certain communities, and you could also see the role of certain super spreaders. And I guess honestly, that's also, uh, how I see the spread of moral ambition. You know, it could start on a campus like this, and maybe initially we have this collective action problem, and maybe initially some people are, are really skeptical. But then you have those people who really are able to act in line with their own ideals, like who don't need that social support from a lot of people around them, and I think that's often where it could start.

   15. AGAdam Grant20:19

       So I think we're mostly in agreement on that, but I think I, I have to fight you on two things here.

   16. RBRutger Bregman20:23

       Okay.

   17. AGAdam Grant20:24

       First one is I think there's an important distinction between being a coward and suffering from learned helplessness.

   18. RBRutger Bregman20:28

       Okay.

   19. AGAdam Grant20:29

       I think about cowardice as basically a psychological state where people say, "My fear overcomes my will to act."

   20. RBRutger Bregman20:35

       Mm.

   21. AGAdam Grant20:36

       And I think that if I take this action, the risks are too great.

   22. RBRutger Bregman20:39

       Mm.

   23. AGAdam Grant20:40

       I think about learned helplessness as saying there, instead of being worried about the, the negative downside of my action-

   24. RBRutger Bregman20:46

       Mm

   25. AGAdam Grant20:46

       ... I just don't believe that there's any positive upside.

   26. RBRutger Bregman20:49

       Mm.

   27. AGAdam Grant20:50

       And so the former is fear, the latter is futility. Like, it doesn't matter. Why bother?

   28. RBRutger Bregman20:54

       Yeah.

   29. AGAdam Grant20:54

       Don't you think those are different? Empirically, they show up as different.

   30. RBRutger Bregman20:58

       Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And how do you overcome learned helplessness?
9. 23:58 – 25:03

   Guilt is an important tool

   1. AGAdam Grant23:58

      actually do see that, like guilt is a powerful motivator of prosocial behavior.

   2. RBRutger Bregman24:02

      Yeah, yeah.

   3. AGAdam Grant24:02

      That when you feel like your, you know, your actions violated expectations or standards or you hurt somebody else, you want to make amends and right your wrongs.

   4. RBRutger Bregman24:10

      Yeah.

   5. AGAdam Grant24:11

      And so I, I was starting to think a little bit about, like is one of your goals here to make people feel guiltier?

   6. RBRutger Bregman24:17

      A little bit, yeah, yeah. I think that there's been a lot of dunking on shame and guilt in the pop psychology world. But I'm like, no, like I'm a pluralist. We need the whole spectrum of human emotions, and we've evolved to, to be able to feel shame. We are one of the very few species in the whole animal kingdom with the ability to blush. Um, there's, there's probably a reason for that, and that's probably also useful in some situations. I mean, I earlier mentioned this movement of, of the effective altruists, and I think that's very much grounded in guilt, or for, for quite a few of the people in that movement, who I'm very often, by the way, deeply admire. I mean, I don't think that you can build a big movement on just guilt alone. So for me, the right mix is probably like 80% enthusiasm and 20% guilt, but it's gotta be in the mix a little

10. 25:03 – 28:20

    Guilt vs. shame

    1. RBRutger Bregman25:03

       bit.

    2. AGAdam Grant25:03

       Okay. I, I do need the record to show I'm, I'm pro guilt in healthy doses, but much more anti-shame.

    3. RBRutger Bregman25:08

       Mm-hmm.

    4. AGAdam Grant25:08

       'Cause if, if you follow the, the trail of June Tangney's research, um, what she shows is that the two emotions tend to have opposite effects, right? So when people feel guilt, they say, "I did a bad thing. I gotta make it right." When they feel shame, they say, "I'm a bad person."

    5. RBRutger Bregman25:20

       Mm-hmm.

    6. AGAdam Grant25:20

       And then they tend to either attack whoever's making them feel ashamed, or they t- tend to withdraw and, you know, just become small. That is, that is not true in all cultures. There's... I've read at least one paper, Rick Bogosi and colleagues, showing that, um, in the Philippines, for example, um, shame is actually dealt with in a much more constructive way than we do in most of the Western world, and you have to restore your honor at that point, as opposed to just kind of aggressing or retreating.

    7. RBRutger Bregman25:45

       Interesting.

    8. AGAdam Grant25:45

       But I was curious to hear your, your Dutch take on this.

    9. RBRutger Bregman25:48

       Couple of things. Uh, my previous book, Humankind, uh, made an argument that we humans have evolved to work together and that we are the product of survival of the friendliest, as some evolutionary psychologists call it. And for that book, I did a lot of research into these nomadic hunter-gatherer cultures where indeed shame also plays a really important role, um, stabilizing these societies, and especially controlling people who are getting a little bit too arrogant, uh, and a little bit too shameless. Uh, so how would you, um, deal with them? Well, uh, you use a lot of gossip. You use ridicule. Like, sometimes we could use a little bit of that, right? I know that I could sometimes use it. Like, power is a dangerous thing. Like, attention is a dangerous thing so...

    10. AGAdam Grant26:33

        I think you're right. I think it's problematic to build a society where, where anyone is shameless.

    11. RBRutger Bregman26:37

        Mm-hmm.

    12. AGAdam Grant26:38

        But I don't know that we need to get to the point of shame to get the benefit. I think what people want is anticipated shame.

    13. RBRutger Bregman26:43

        Mm-hmm.

    14. AGAdam Grant26:43

        I want people to feel anticipatory shame about doing something wrong or harmful, and the hope is that that, that emotion then prevents the action and they never have to live with the shame itself.

    15. RBRutger Bregman26:52

        So this, the distinction you make reminds me of someone who recently explained this distinction between anger and disgust to me in a relationship. So the point this, this person was making is like that anger leads to connection while disgust leads to separation. So for example, y- you have a little bit of a conflict going on or a big conflict and then if you're angry, then you take someone seriously. You say like, "I, I expected better of you. Like, why did you do this? Uh, this is a betrayal of our confidence." Uh, so yeah, you really recognize that person. Uh, but if it's disgust then it's, "Oh, yeah, sure. Sure. Yeah, you're right." It's that, that kind of... And that leads to separation, right? So I'm very much pro anger, which reminds me of you being pro guilt. [laughs]

    16. AGAdam Grant27:38

        [laughs]

    17. RBRutger Bregman27:39

        So yeah, we're pro anger, pro guilt. What else? [laughs]

    18. AGAdam Grant27:41

        I, I don't know if I wanna come down on the pro anger side here, Rutger.

    19. RBRutger Bregman27:45

        [laughs]

    20. AGAdam Grant27:45

        I think I could, I could get behind, um, empathetic anger or righteous indignation.

    21. RBRutger Bregman27:50

        Mm-hmm.

    22. AGAdam Grant27:50

        Right? If the kinds of injustices that you've been talking about today-

    23. RBRutger Bregman27:53

        Yeah

    24. AGAdam Grant27:54

        ... um, if, you know, if that leads to a sense of moral outrage-

    25. RBRutger Bregman27:57

        Yeah

    26. AGAdam Grant27:57

        ... might be useful. I think that it's much more effective though for prope- propelling you into action than it is for getting you to be persuasive to others. Because oftentimes when people are morally outraged, what they do is then they start to blame and shame other people, um, and that leads other people to then not wanna rise to the occasion. So I, I worry a little bit about the tactics that come out of that intense emotion.

    27. RBRutger Bregman28:17

        Fair enough.

    28. AGAdam Grant28:17

        Okay, let's, um, let's, let's shift gears here.

11. 28:20 – 29:06

    Lightning round

    1. AGAdam Grant28:20

       You ready for a lightning round?

    2. RBRutger Bregman28:21

       Absolutely.

    3. AGAdam Grant28:22

       Okay. First question, worst advice you h- hear people given when it comes to ambition?

    4. RBRutger Bregman28:27

       Uh, follow your passion. Yeah.

    5. SPSpeaker28:29

       [laughs]

    6. RBRutger Bregman28:30

       Like, like, no one cares about your passion. [laughs]

    7. SPSpeaker28:34

       [laughs]

    8. AGAdam Grant28:35

       I care about your passion, just to be clear.

    9. RBRutger Bregman28:37

       No, no, no, no, no, no. No, no. Just, just ask, ask other people who've had a, you know, thought long and hard about it what needs to happen, and then be compassionate about that.

    10. AGAdam Grant28:45

        So don't follow your passion, follow your compassion. [laughs] You- you've already given us a few hot takes tonight, but is there an unpopular d- opinion that you're excited to defend?

    11. RBRutger Bregman28:55

        Uh, I don't believe in free will.

    12. AGAdam Grant28:58

        Oh, you're one of those?

    13. RBRutger Bregman28:59

        Yeah.

    14. SPSpeaker28:59

        [laughs]

    15. AGAdam Grant29:00

        We're gonna have a whole conversation about free will later.

    16. RBRutger Bregman29:03

        Okay. [laughs]

    17. AGAdam Grant29:03

        Uh, and, uh, what's a question you have for me?

12. 29:06 – 30:48

    Building the movement

    1. RBRutger Bregman29:06

       Curious about the point, uh, around learned helplessness, and maybe also how you would advise me to help a movement that is actually helpful, help build a movement that's actually helpful for these people. Because, you know, it's easy for me to, you know, have some fun and, you know, dunk on the McKinseys of this world. But people in the audience here today, you know, it's their lives and they, they gotta make real choices, and you, you work with them a lot. So I'm very, very curious, as I bar- embark on this a- adventure of trying to build a movement that convinces as many people as possible to become ambitious idealists, um, what should I do?

    2. AGAdam Grant29:41

       Well, I, I'm actually really torn on this one because on the one hand I loved in the book the way that you encouraged us to aim higher.

    3. RBRutger Bregman29:48

       Mm-hmm.

    4. AGAdam Grant29:48

       And I think that's, that's one of the most uplifting aspects of your philosophy, is like, it, it doesn't allow people to make excuses and just kind of focus on little things that don't really matter. At the same time, I keep thinking about this, um, classic paper that Karl Weick wrote in the '80s, um, on small wins and the importance of redefining the scale of social problems.

    5. RBRutger Bregman30:09

       Mm-hmm.

    6. AGAdam Grant30:10

       And there's been a lot of research in the last few decades showing that, like [laughs] one of the, the simplest antidotes to, to learned helplessness is actually just breaking what people need to do down into smaller pieces.

    7. RBRutger Bregman30:21

       Mm-hmm.

    8. AGAdam Grant30:21

       And so I, what I wonder is, is there an opportunity with your School for Moral Ambition and with this movement for-

    9. RBRutger Bregman30:27

       Mm

    10. AGAdam Grant30:27

        ... that you're building to start with the, the high ideals and say, "Look, like, here's the, the, the level of aspiration that we should all have, and now, like [laughs] here are the first three actions-"

    11. RBRutger Bregman30:37

        Yeah

    12. AGAdam Grant30:37

        ... "that will move the needle that you could begin taking tomorrow"?

    13. RBRutger Bregman30:41

        Yeah. I love that.

    14. AGAdam Grant30:43

        So what are those actions?

    15. RBRutger Bregman30:44

        Yeah.

    16. AGAdam Grant30:44

        Like, for people who do want to do more, for people who are morally ambitious

13. 30:48 – 32:20

    How you can start making a difference

    1. AGAdam Grant30:48

       here-

    2. RBRutger Bregman30:49

       Yeah, yeah

    3. AGAdam Grant30:49

       ... where should they begin?

    4. RBRutger Bregman30:50

       Okay. I wanna say, say three things. One is I recently spoke to this entrepreneur who said, "If you can accomplish your goals during your lifetime, then you're just not thinking big enough." So that's the part of, like, thinking big is important. Then you reminded me of the research about the resistance heroes, is because they didn't start by saying, "Yes, you know, I'll, I'll, I'll have, like, a place for five people in the attic," right? No, it very often started with small acts of resistance, like you distribute an illegal newspaper, for example, or you sabotage, you know, uh, I don't know, a car of the Nazis or something like that, and then y- you start becoming a different person. So maybe we gotta find those kind of equivalents. I started this, this organization called The School for Moral Ambition, and one of the things we've developed is, is pretty simple. It's called a moral ambition circle. So it's a group of six to eight people who don't know all the answers, but who are interested in the same questions. Like, what are my super talents? What are some of the biggest, most neglected, uh, problems in the world? How can I take the first step? How can we hold each other accountable?

    5. AGAdam Grant31:51

       Would love to see some people join. Rutger, I think you said something really profound earlier. I loved your point that it's not being a good person that leads you to do good things. It's doing good things that makes you a good person, and I think it's, it's your best defense against virtue signaling.

    6. RBRutger Bregman32:07

       Mm.

    7. AGAdam Grant32:07

       Like, to say you actually have to go out and earn moral ambition, not just claim it. I think your book genuinely will lead people to want to become better humans. Thank you.

    8. RBRutger Bregman32:17

       [laughs] Thanks so much, Adam. [audience applauds]

14. 32:20 – 32:31

    Credits

    1. RBRutger Bregman32:20

       [upbeat music]

Episode duration: 32:40