Re:Thinking with Adam GrantKen Burns on his next projects and dealing with grief | ReThinking
CHAPTERS
- 0:00 – 0:33
Fatherhood, divorce, and why parenting came first
Ken Burns reflects on divorce and single fatherhood, arguing that the constraints of parenting became a "godsend" that forced him to prioritize daily presence over work. He frames fatherhood as his proudest identity—above filmmaking.
- •Divorce and single parenting reduced work distractions and increased time with kids
- •The realities of cooking, laundry, and being present shaped his priorities
- •Burns says he’s a better father than filmmaker
- •Parenting as foundational “fundamental stuff”
- 0:33 – 0:54
Setting up the lightning round (and Burns’ long-form instincts)
Adam Grant proposes a lightning round, and Burns jokes about his tendency toward sprawling, documentary-length answers. The exchange highlights Burns’ enthusiasm and storytelling style as part of his creative signature.
- •Grant introduces the lightning round format
- •Burns jokes about giving “six part 12-hour answers”
- •Burns pre-apologizes for going long when he gets excited
- •Grant affirms that this expansiveness is part of the “magic”
- 0:54 – 2:27
Worst career advice and the best advice: “Careerism is death”
Burns recounts early skepticism about his choices (like moving to New Hampshire and making slow, extended visual moves) and contrasts it with life-shaping counsel from Robert Penn Warren. He explains why he avoids “career” thinking in favor of a more self-directed professional life.
- •People doubted moving away from NYC while working on an early film
- •A technical collaborator warned audiences wouldn’t watch a long zoom—Burns insisted anyway
- •Robert Penn Warren’s maxim: “Careerism is death”
- •Burns rejects the idea of a predetermined professional “rut” and values self-reliance
- 2:27 – 3:18
The dream dinner party: Armstrong, Lincoln, and America’s great feminist writers
Asked who he’d invite to a dinner party, Burns chooses big personalities and powerful communicators. He praises Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Abigail Adams as exceptional writers and emphasizes Adams’ early feminist and anti-slavery convictions.
- •Louis Armstrong and Abraham Lincoln as must-invite guests
- •Elizabeth Cady Stanton as the movement’s key writer/stylist
- •Abigail Adams celebrated as gutsy, incisive, and plainly feminist
- •Emphasis on conversation—people who would “talk”
- 3:18 – 4:21
Pitching the next film: Lucy Stone and the unfinished work of suffrage history
Grant pitches Lucy Stone as an underrecognized suffrage leader, and Burns strongly agrees. Burns then shares how casual lunch conversations during another edit helped spark his own suffrage project and notes how the movement’s language ultimately shaped constitutional change.
- •Burns endorses Lucy Stone as a terrific documentary subject
- •Origin story: lunch discussions during Civil War editing led to a suffrage film commitment
- •Stanton/Anthony’s language and legacy carry into the amendment
- •Suffrage history is ongoing; later figures deserve attention too
- 4:21 – 4:58
How the 19th Amendment was decided: Harry Burn and a letter from his mother
Burns recounts the dramatic final push for ratification, focusing on the decisive Tennessee vote. The moment turns on a reversal prompted by a letter from a lawmaker’s mother urging him to do the right thing.
- •Reference to coverage that reaches the final ratification battle
- •Tennessee as the last state needed for passage
- •Harry Burn’s deciding vote after being opposed
- •A letter from his mother catalyzed the change
- 4:58 – 6:35
A Supreme Court series—and a fresh framework for the branches of government
Grant pitches a Supreme Court history, and Burns calls it compelling given its legacy of landmark good and bad decisions. He shares an interpretive model of the branches in “tenses,” arguing it adds nuance beyond binary thinking about institutions.
- •Supreme Court history as rich material for storytelling
- •The Court’s record includes spectacular successes and failures
- •Yuval Levin’s “tenses” framing: legislature (future), executive (present), Court (past)
- •Call for finesse over overly binary political interpretations
- 6:35 – 7:30
Burns’ real pipeline: LBJ, Reconstruction, Obama interviews, King, and the CIA idea
Burns reveals the long horizon of projects he’s already developing, underscoring how many years major series require. He describes work underway on LBJ/Great Society and Reconstruction, extensive interviews with Barack Obama, filming people who knew Dr. King, and a shift from a Cold War concept toward focusing on the CIA.
- •Burns plans 7–8 years ahead; projects depend on “God and funding willing”
- •In progress: LBJ and the Great Society
- •In progress: Reconstruction (“Emancipation to Exodus”) as misunderstood history
- •Eight two-hour Obama interviews completed; aiming for a big series beyond journalism’s immediacy
- •Filming interviews with people who knew Dr. King
- •Concept shift: from Cold War series to a CIA-centered series for more intimate angles
- 7:30 – 8:24
The OSS pitch and a Vietnam turning point on V-J Day
Grant suggests a film on the OSS as a precursor to the CIA, and Burns responds with a striking historical vignette. He tells how OSS officers stood near Ho Chi Minh as he quoted the U.S. Declaration of Independence—only for U.S. policy to reverse within weeks.
- •OSS as compelling entry point into intelligence history
- •Sept 2, 1945: Japanese surrender on USS Missouri vs. events in Hanoi
- •Ho Chi Minh quotes “all men are created equal” with OSS presence nearby
- •Rapid policy reversal: State Department orders OSS to distance from him as a “commie”
- •Illustrates how quickly alliances and narratives can shift
- 8:24 – 9:11
Best post-presidency: Jimmy Carter vs. John Quincy Adams
Burns weighs who had the best post-presidency and narrows it to Carter and John Quincy Adams. He praises the idea of ongoing citizenship after office and contrasts it with an example of a notably poor post-presidency.
- •Top contenders: Jimmy Carter and John Quincy Adams
- •Carter’s extraordinary humanitarian post-presidency
- •John Quincy Adams as model of lifelong civic duty
- •George Washington’s notion of citizenship as an ongoing project
- •John Tyler cited as having the worst post-presidency
- 9:11 – 10:18
What Burns has rethought: resisting the urge to make others wrong
Burns describes letting go of certain political and societal opinions and focusing on avoiding the reflex to declare people or moments “wrong.” He frames this as a continual practice tied to what it means to live well and contribute meaningfully.
- •Letting go of acquired opinions can be joyful and freeing
- •Marriage advice: “We try not to make the other wrong”
- •Recognizing the knee-jerk impulse to label others as wrong—and checking it
- •Life’s project: tending gardens, raising children, curing disease, making art
- 10:18 – 11:12
Grief’s endless half-life: Burns’ question shaped by losing his mother at 11
Burns asks Grant whether grief’s “half-life” is endless, drawing from the death of his mother after a long illness when he was a child. He describes grief as both painful loss and a force that can generate meaning and purpose.
- •Burns’ mother died after an 8–9 year illness when he was 11
- •He believes he wouldn’t do his work if she hadn’t died
- •Grief as enduring: “the half-life…was endless”
- •Grief can “pay dividends” while remaining fundamentally loss
- 11:12 – 13:17
Why closure is a myth: grief as waxing and waning cycles
Grant argues that cultural narratives about grief are broken—especially the expectation of linear stages and “closure.” Together they describe grief as recurring cycles that ebb and flow, where progress means perspective rather than erasure of sorrow.
- •Grant: closure is a myth; love doesn’t require letting go
- •Grief ebbs and flows; people get better at processing it
- •Stage models misled people into expecting linear progression
- •Metaphor: phases of the moon—waxing and waning
- •Moving forward means perspective, not eliminating sorrow
- 13:17 – 15:41
“You wake the dead”: how loss fuels Burns’ storytelling and legacy
Burns shares a psychologist father-in-law’s insight that his filmmaking—reviving historical figures—may be an attempt to revive his mother. He describes how grief becomes an animating engine, and how family continuity (his granddaughter named Lila) transforms mourning into living remembrance.
- •Gerald Steklar connects Burns’ work to keeping his mother “alive”
- •Filmmaking as resurrection: making Lincoln and others feel present
- •Burns’ mother as the “fuel” behind his storytelling
- •Grief as recurring: he still breaks down decades later
- •Legacy and renewal: granddaughter named Lila makes the name present again
- •Closing reflection on living fully in the present despite working in the past
