Malala Yousafzai on finding love and prioritizing joy | ReThinking with Adam Grant

Adam Grant 0:00 It would be easy for people to assume that you're spending all your time just trying to save the world. And I think one of the things you've done for a lot of people is you've role modeled it's actually okay to take risks and have fun and try things that might be frivolous.

Malala Yousafzai 0:14 Yeah, I mean, I, I do want to clarify, I'm not recommending everybody climbs a rooftop. Like, that's not the point. [laughs]

Adam Grant 0:21 [laughs]

Malala Yousafzai 0:21 Imagine like, "Oh, Malala inspired me-"

Adam Grant 0:24 Loud and clear

Malala Yousafzai 0:24 ... doing what? Study? No, climb rooftop. [laughs] This has been my childhood dream, to be able to do magic tricks. I, I sort of, I sort of, like, love the feeling when you know that something impossible has happened. So yeah. I love card tricks. Card tricks are, are good. Really impressive.

Adam Grant 0:47 In all the time we've spent together, how have we never done card tricks? They're my favorite, too.

Malala Yousafzai 0:51 I know, but I'm under a lot of pressure when I'm with you because I know you will, [laughs] you will know what trick I used. [laughs]

Adam Grant 0:58 [laughs]

Malala Yousafzai 0:58 You question too many things, so no. I need to better prepare myself.

Adam Grant 1:03 I look forward to our, our own magic camp-

Malala Yousafzai 1:06 Yes

Adam Grant 1:06 ... which will be the nerdiest thing you've ever done.

Malala Yousafzai 1:09 [laughs]

Adam Grant 1:10 So one of the things that has puzzled me for a long time, Malala, is an apparent contradiction in your life. On the one hand, you won a Nobel Peace Prize, on the other hand, you hit your brother.

Malala Yousafzai 1:22 Yes, you know. Um, [laughs] I, uh, I have two younger brothers. It was, you know, when we were still young. Now, you know, now, now the dynamic is quite different because they're also older now.

Adam Grant 1:36 I thought you were, I thought you were anti-violence, though.

Malala Yousafzai 1:39 So I, like, I remember they, they were, at the time, like 11, you know, 13. They expressed their love in different ways, and sometimes they believe that to annoy your sister is a form of expressing your love. I disagree with that, but that's what they say.

Adam Grant 1:53 Why do you disagree with that?

Malala Yousafzai 1:55 I think, um, we should cause less trouble and ano- and do not annoy people. As simple as that. I'm sure you would agree on that.

Adam Grant 2:02 I don't know. I... You know, there's a, there's a term in psychology that I think describes what they're trying to do. It's called pro-social teasing.

Malala Yousafzai 2:09 Okay.

Adam Grant 2:10 Where, you know, you, you might poke fun at someone that you really love as a sign of endearment, or you might purposely get under their skin because you enjoy getting a reaction out of them, and you know you can only do that with people that you're really close to or truly love. And so you re- you reserve that for your most important relationships. I, I like it. I, I'm guilty of it from time to time.

Malala Yousafzai 2:33 [laughs]

Adam Grant 2:34 Uh, change my mind. Tell me why I shouldn't be.

Malala Yousafzai 2:36 I think there is a threshold for it. I think as a sister, like, I give enough signs to my brothers to let them know that, like, enough, and sometimes they just don't understand [laughs] the signs.

Adam Grant 2:48 So you're okay with pro-social teasing as long as they stop when you tell them you've had enough.

Malala Yousafzai 2:53 Yeah, like, three times, enough, okay? No more than that.

Adam Grant 2:58 Fair. So let's, uh, let's talk about your new book, Finding My Way. I, I thought it was a, a very powerful way of reclaiming your narrative in some ways because I think the world got to know you wh- when you were a kid, and I'd love to talk a little bit about sort of what reflection you saw in the mirror and how you wanted to change it. I remember the, the first time I was profiled on a much smaller scale, uh, my editor told me that [laughs] anytime the media covers you, it's like looking at yourself through a fun house mirror.

Malala Yousafzai 3:32 Hmm.

Adam Grant 3:33 Did that, did that capture your experience?

Malala Yousafzai 3:36 I had, um, a few challenges. Uh, one was the fact that I became this public figure at a very young age, and when you are still a teenager, you do not know who you are and what you want to be. So to get this recognition at a young age, uh, affects that process of growth for you, the process of learning for you about yourself, about, you know, who you are as a person. And then at the same time, you know, when I was attacked and I was still in the hospital in coma, I was receiving this global recognition, and I was getting titles like, you know, being the bravest girl, the most courageous girl, but I did not know what that actually meant. And I somehow thought maybe because of this, uh, incredible place that I'm in right now, I have survived and now I can advocate for girls globally, this might mean that I have now a responsibility to live up to this recognition. So in the middle of all of that, I just lost that sense of, uh, childhood, and I also lost this right to define myself. And it was in these later years in my life that I got an opportunity to reclaim how I wanted to be, um, and, and, you know, and, and sort of redefined myself.

Adam Grant 4:58 So what did you want to redefine?

Malala Yousafzai 5:00 I think, uh, this is a-

Adam Grant 5:03 I know. There's a whole book

Malala Yousafzai 5:03 ... not, not an easy question to answer because I had to write a whole book about this. In this book, I am sharing my journey. You cannot explain it in one sentence. It is your everyday life, uh, that you are trying to, um, to find out, uh, who you are. And I remember when I was joining university, uh, so I got admission into Oxford. I received an email from our college principal saying that he wants to send out an email to all the new students to mention that I will be in college, and that they need to maintain their distance and respect my privacy. Like, I froze. I said-

Adam Grant 5:44 No

Malala Yousafzai 5:44 ... "No, please don't do that," because this is what had happened in school as well. So when, you know, I, I was brought to the UK for my medical treatment after the attack, I joined a new school here and, you know, the students just did not know how to approach me. I was unaware of this, like, new culture. There was the language barrier. So many things, and I just did not want all of that to be repeated in university as well. So university was that new starting point for me. So I was so glad that the principal did not send any email to anybody. And I remember, like, I was walking like any other student in that freshers week, the, the opening week, and I was bumping into people. I was saying hello, asking them their name, what degree they were studying, which college they were at. And that's how I met so many incredible people, and I got an opportunity to introduce myself as a student. Um, and, and you sort of, you know, you find the right people.

Adam Grant 6:41 Yeah. I, I assume all you wanted was to be treated like a regular college student.

Malala Yousafzai 6:45 That was my whole plan for college. Of course, I am passionate about studies as well, [laughs] and I do advocate for education, but college was a time when I thought that I need to think about learning outside textbooks. And I remember, like, you know, I, in, in, in the early months at college, I was sitting in the library and looking outside the window, just seeing these friends chatting with each other, giggling, laughing. And I looked at my textbook and I said, "I can read this anytime. I can come back to this. But the moments I can have with these friends, I will treasure forever. I want to be in the gardens. I want us to talk about love life and, um, and just gossip about things, just complain about the academic pressure." So I closed my book and ran off and spent time with my friends, but this was my life. Then every week [laughs] I would have essay crisis and, and, you know, somehow I'd be really frustrated with myself that, ugh, you know, why did I end up going to all of those events? And why was I going to every dinner, every speakers event, every Diwali or Eid party? Um, but, you know, and sort of in, in the middle of the night when I'm figuring out how to finish an essay that's supposed to take me a whole week in just five hours and submit it by, like, 8:00 AM in the morning, at the same time, I would feel that it was worth it because I do not feel alone. I have so many friends, and they are giving me these memories that I will treasure with me forever.

Adam Grant 8:23 That's great to hear. It seems like ever since that, like, that experience of, you know, wanting to be a normal college student, you have made a strong effort to, like, to try to show the world that you are a regular person and, you know, you, you live a somewhat normal life despite, you know, the extraordinary impact you've had in the world and the unusual experiences that you've had. And I think one of my favorite demonstrations of this was maybe the best Instagram post I've ever seen, uh, when you posted about the Barbie movie.

Malala Yousafzai 8:56 [laughs]

Adam Grant 8:57 I have to ask you about that.

Malala Yousafzai 8:59 So I took my husband. We watched Barbie movie and, uh, in the, in the cinema there was this, like, you know, the Barbie doll box and you said you go inside and you take a photo. So yeah, we took a photo. Then I posted it on, uh, on Twitter and Instagram, and I said that, "This Bar- this Barbie has a Nobel Prize. He's just Ken," so [laughs]

Adam Grant 9:23 How did Asser feel about that? Does he feel like he's Ken enough?

Malala Yousafzai 9:26 Yeah, I think he claimed that title with pride.

Adam Grant 9:30 That cracked me up. It was so funny. So clever. Okay, so let's, let's go back to, to you and your evolution. Um, I think one of the, one of the big themes in the book is you, on the one hand, you know, want to sort of [laughs] enjoy your life as a 20-something, and on the other hand, you have this tremendous sense of responsibility and, and pressure. How did you deal with it early on, and how has it changed over time?

Malala Yousafzai 9:58 I would say that, um, early on when I was starting my new journey of activism in a new country after the attack, I had accepted this, uh, external expectation and, and I thought, like, I'm supposed to live how people e-expect me to live. So, you know, I... And it, and it meant, like, sacrificing on, on small things. So in school I remember that, you know, I, I would go there, sit quietly in the, um, you know, in the corner. I wasn't talking much because I just didn't... I just thought nobody wanted to talk to me. I did not even, like, have a choice, that it just happened because of the circumstances. So it's really hard to process with that. So I thought, okay, like, you know, if you become an activist for a cause you believe in and people are telling you, yes, you know, you are somehow the, the, the change maker, well, that means you cannot, um, have any friends. That means you will not be loved, uh, you cannot find love. And you cannot expect a normal life, like marriage or family, friendships, going on a holiday. Talking about, like, anything other than work is not going to be your life. So like for, in, in college when I was experiencing some of these things for the first time, my college friends were so shocked when they were finally understanding that I, like, had never hung out with friends and heard, like, swear words, that I had [laughs] that, like, I had never heard people talk about boys and, and you know where they were last night and what happened last night. So in college, I was like, "Nobody's watching me. It's just me and me and me, so why not try a few things?" And even though I wanted a normal life in college, I felt it became a bit too normal, you know? A bit more than normal, so, [laughs] so I was like, "This is-"

Adam Grant 12:05 [laughs] What do you mean too normal?

Malala Yousafzai 12:07 Like, I, there was a point when I realized that I was doing more than what my normal friends were doing. So I remember one, uh, in- One day in college, I see this mysterious student, and he tells me about rooftop climbing. And I said, "Wait a second. There's a whole thing going on in college, and, like, students who get in trouble do it? I wanna do this, too." My friends were rolling their eyes, and they were a bit concerned. But I said, "Who cares? This is one opportunity." Um, so my friend and I, like, at midnight, joined that stranger. She stepped back, actually. She said, "You know what? I'm, I, I don't wanna get in trouble." And I said, "Well, I think I'm gonna take the risk." And this is a very risky journey to make it to the rooftop because you make it to this small room on the fourth floor, then you sneak out through the window. There is this narrow pathway that takes you to the roof, but there's, like, many, many steps to it. And on this narrow path, um, you can only put, like, one foot at a time. That's how narrow it is. And one misstep, you would fall from a four-story building. Like, your life is at risk. And you have to, like, take this, this jump, uh, to make it to the, to the next part of the roof, and quite a big jump. Somehow, I made it through the journey, and I remember, like, sitting on the rooftop under the bell tower, looking down at the college building, looking at these rooms. Some lights were still on, and I was wondering what the students were doing. And I was just breathing in this air of peace around me. And in that moment, I just felt a sense of accomplishment that I cannot describe to anybody. I thought that I had overcome something, that I could do what I wanted to do. And it's hard to explain to somebody, like, "Oh," like, "rooftop climbing is my mission." Like, no, it's not my mission, but it, it felt like I was living my life, uh, and I did not feel that I was li- I was limited, I was restricted, that I could be myself.

Adam Grant 14:13 It would be easy for people to assume that [laughs] you're spending all your time just trying to save the world. And I think one of the things you've done for a lot of people is you've role modeled it's actually okay to take risks and have fun and try things that might be frivolous. Uh, and y- you might fall, you m- you might fall flat on your face.

Malala Yousafzai 14:32 [laughs]

Adam Grant 14:32 Uh, and that's, that's entirely fine. So talk to me about the decision to learn to ski and ride a bike.

Malala Yousafzai 14:39 I think it's really important, uh, for all of us to try new things, and for me, it was really important. If somebody had asked me two or three years ago what my favorite activity was, I would have said sitting. I would always just be finding a spot to sit down. That's how inactive I had become.

Adam Grant 15:00 [laughs]

Malala Yousafzai 15:00 When I married, uh, to my husband, who is a very active person because he comes from the sports world, especially cricket, then I was introduced to all of these different sports, including skiing and golf and paddle tennis, gym, like, running. I go to gym more passionately than him now. Everything has changed. I was under the assumption that I was just somehow not capable of doing any of these things, that I could not run, that I could not lift weight, that I could never do golf or, or ski. And, and once you give it a try, you know you can, and it has just completely changed my perspective. I think there's a very powerful message for girls and women out there especially because we are oftentimes told that certain things are not for us. We're not capable. And that's why we never give it a try. What I have learned from my experience so far is that give it a try. You might be the best at it. You never know.

Adam Grant 15:59 I, I love that, and I'm also reminded of some research that speaks to what happens when people take on a hobby outside of work.

Malala Yousafzai 16:05 Mm-hmm.

Adam Grant 16:06 And they're able to master it. They actually get a confidence boost in their job because the experience of, you know, of learning a skill, even if it's just for fun, reminds them of what they're capable of. So I guess I wonder, was there a spillover effect? Did you find that, you know, as you learned to ski or, you know, [laughs] figured out that you could lift weights and, and run, um, did you find yourself navigating your work differently?

Malala Yousafzai 16:27 When I started, like, looking after my physical health, go to the gym, go for a walk, run, play golf, learn something new, do a new activity, just go for a dinner with friends, I realized that I was in a much better shape. I felt fresher. I felt healthier. I felt more focused. So the time that I was giving to work, um, you know, is, is now, like, even more productive. It's, you know, it's ... I feel like I can get m- more done than before. So it's, like, the complete opposite than what you expect. I think it's, it's part of the work. Like, we need to just change our approach and see it as part of the work.

Adam Grant 17:07 I think so, too. I think so many people look at exercise and hobbies as a distraction or a diversion, but they're actually great sources of energy and confidence.

Malala Yousafzai 17:17 Yeah. For sure.

Adam Grant 17:18 One of the things that I think many people around the world look up to you for is your resilience, the way that you've faced adversity that most of us can't even imagine in our lives and come out of those experiences stronger. And I'd love to know, what have, what have you learned about building resilience?

Malala Yousafzai 17:37 I would rephrase that question because I do not think that out of all of the tragedies and the circumstances that I faced that I came out as a resilient and strong and brave person. This is, like, what I thought I was supposed to be. And I thought, you know, that I had recovered from a bullet injury. I've done all of my surgeries. Like, this is it. This is what recovery means. But it was seven, eight years later in college that I started getting flashbacks and panic attacks. It's, it, it was not something that I could just, like, undo in a day, you know, to say, "Okay," like, "one panic attack, and now I'm gonna be the normal person." No. Like, true bravery And courage is when you still get up even when you feel scared, even when you feel there's not much you could do or you feel hopeless, but you still get up and you go out and you do it. Um, so I, I have tried to redefine bravery and courage for me because in those moments when I was going through the mental health, uh, challenges, the trauma, all of these feelings, I f- I some- I somehow felt that I was losing this battle of resilience, that I could still stand up to the Taliban, but why would small things like the word murder or killing trigger me? And, and I, you know, I could sort of, um, have like, you know, like my heart would be beating fast and I would be like sweating, and I just could not concentrate, and I, uh, you know, I could not sleep at night and, and like why was I going through these different panic attacks? And it's just to say that, you know, you, you cannot sort of fully control your mind, um, and you just do not know when a trauma can affect you. Uh, so now for me, it is looking after myself, prioritizing my physical and mental health, getting therapy. It has now become part of my life, and I, you know, I would now call this the true resilience when despite all of that, that you go through, you are still on, on the journey working for the mission that you believe in.

Adam Grant 20:02 Wow. So one of the things you write about in the book, and it was one of my favorite parts of the book, this traces back to the transformation you were talking about that you went through at Oxford. In college, you thought you might never get married.

Malala Yousafzai 20:15 [laughs]

Adam Grant 20:16 Or at least you were afraid of getting married. Why?

Malala Yousafzai 20:19 I was afraid of getting married because I thought marriage means compromises for women, and growing up, I had seen many girls lose their future and their education because they were forced into marriages. Child marriage is a reality for millions of girls every year around the world, and at the same time, like the more, um, you understand your rights and your financial empowerment, uh, and your independence, y- you know, you become more aware of how these institutions have historically taken from women rather than giving to women. And i- in the middle of it, I thought as an activist for women's empowerment and for girls' education, somehow that I might be giving up to an institution that has been historically patriarchal [laughs] . Uh, that, uh, somehow that I was, I was failing or like, you know, that I'm sort of like s- submitting to [laughs] to something. So I thought, you know what? Another person in your life and marriage as a whole, the best re- the best approach might be to just never get married, just never have the problem. You never have to think about it. So this, this was my approach in college.

Adam Grant 21:34 Why did you change your mind?

Malala Yousafzai 21:35 I changed my mind about marriage because I fell in love with a guy. [laughs] And then I was so confused. I was, uh, I was stuck between this dilemma of wanting to be with this person forever because I could not imagine my life without them. I, I loved, uh, Assar. He was the right person for me. He was good-looking. He was charming. He was kind. He was funny. He would laugh at my jokes. Like, what else could I have wanted? I, I thought he was, he was the right one, and such a secure person. Like, he, um, he... I don't know. I thought he was just like a unicorn. And so I wanted to be with him, but then at the same time, I knew that in our culture, like you could not just be, you know, living with a person. You have to be married to be living with them, so it's like part of our Pakistani culture. It's part of the Islamic culture as well, and you have to get your parents' approval. So then this like whole new journey started for me where it was a bit of a, a, a battle to convince my mom, and also at the same time, like I was trying to understand, you know, like that I want to live with him, but what does that mean for, for my identity as a women's rights activist if I finally accept the institution of marriage?

Adam Grant 23:00 Wow. Okay, I need to interrogate your description of Assar for a second-

Malala Yousafzai 23:05 [laughs]

Adam Grant 23:05 ... because when you described all the things he had going for him, the first thing you said was not that he was kind, but that he was good-looking.

Malala Yousafzai 23:13 [laughs]

Adam Grant 23:14 Like, Malala, I d- I would never have expected you to be that superficial.

Malala Yousafzai 23:18 You know, there are a lot of kind people, but [laughs] no, just kidding. I think it's, it's important.

Adam Grant 23:23 [laughs]

Malala Yousafzai 23:23 It's important that, that you have affection in, for each other. For me, like kindness is one of those things, but also good looks, a good smile.

Adam Grant 23:31 Fair.

Malala Yousafzai 23:32 Yeah.

Adam Grant 23:32 Okay. The other thing that jumped out at me is you reversed the common gender stereotype when you were talking about sense of humor. So in the, in the research on how men and women think about sense of humor in relationships, uh, you see this pattern that, you know, I think is, is really sad.

Malala Yousafzai 23:49 Okay.

Adam Grant 23:49 Which is, um, [laughs] when, when men say they want a sense of humor in a woman, uh, they're looking for a woman who laughs at their jokes.

Malala Yousafzai 23:57 Mm-hmm.

Adam Grant 23:58 And when women look for a sense of humor in a man, they're looking for a man who makes them laugh, and I love that you flipped that, and you said, "He's funny," and by that I mean, "He laughs at my jokes."

Malala Yousafzai 24:11 Yeah. No, th- this is true. I th- I, I laugh at his jokes as well. I think it can be both ways, I think, and it should be both ways, but I believe that he finds me funny and he laughs at my jokes, so [laughs]

Adam Grant 24:23 I've seen it.

Malala Yousafzai 24:24 Yeah.

Adam Grant 24:24 Definitely. But everyone laughs at your jokes.

Malala Yousafzai 24:26 Oh, thank you.

Adam Grant 24:28 I, I feel like you might have missed a calling as a standup comedian, but I, I think the, the path that you've landed on-

Malala Yousafzai 24:33 It's never too late

Adam Grant 24:33 ... is, is pretty meaningful

Malala Yousafzai 24:35 Never too late. And, uh, once-

Adam Grant 24:35 Would you do standup?

Malala Yousafzai 24:37 Once I'm done with the book, who knows, you know? It could be that I become a magician or I do a stan- you know, I become a standup comedian.

Adam Grant 24:44 Oh, I can't wait for the Malala magic comedy show.

Malala Yousafzai 24:46 Yes. And, you know, who knows? I might, uh, take over the ReThinking podcast by Adam Grant. [laughs]

Adam Grant 24:54 [laughs]

Malala Yousafzai 24:54 Who knows?

Adam Grant 24:55 You're, you're welcome anytime.

Malala Yousafzai 24:57 Thank you.

Adam Grant 24:58 Um, okay, so let's, let's go back then to this marriage dilemma. Um, why were your parents skeptical, and why did you push forward anyway?

Malala Yousafzai 25:08 I think, um, on my parents' side, you know, it was just completely unexpected that I introduced a guy. This was now, like, a love-marriage situation, so they were worried that they did not know this guy yet. Uh, so my, my parents really wanted to know them. But then on my mom's side, I understand her concerns a bit more. I think, uh, you know, for her, her, her own childhood was very different. She understood marriage in a different way. So my mom, uh, didn't go to school, and, uh, in her community, a lot of, like, most of the women, to be honest, like, everybody, every woman there could not complete their education. So for my mom, like, marriage was a sense of security, where they thought that if they find the right guy, who is respectful and kind and, you know, ensures that you have a good time, like, that's a blessing. Like, be grateful for it. So like f- you know, for my mom, it was just all about, like, marriage is a sense of security for women and, like, that I should get married. But then she was like... that I should get married according to her preferences. [laughs] So I was like, "Okay, Mom, we can agree on part of it, but then we disagree on the other part of it."

Adam Grant 26:30 Wow, so she, she expected you to agree to an arranged marriage?

Malala Yousafzai 26:35 You know, like a, I w- I wouldn't say that she said that, but yes, like, that's what it appeared to be. You know, when, when they're, like, rejecting the, the proposal that you are bringing, so [laughs] yeah.

Adam Grant 26:47 And what, what was it that made you wanna push for this? Because, you know, you, you articulated really clearly why you thought marriage was a problematic institution. What, what led to that change of heart?

Malala Yousafzai 26:58 My view on marriage, um, for myself changed with time a bit because I realized that some of these institutions have a whole history of patriarchy but, you know, we ourselves are also redefining them. And in the end, it's this mutual agreement between the two people who decide to live together, and when they are both in agreement and on good terms, like, you can break down the expectations and the barriers that are unfair to women. So Asser was the right person. I mean, like, we both can talk about anything. We, um... it's... I, I realized that he was actually more open-minded than me because in this whole, like, pre-marriage period, I would sometimes send him these silly questions, like, at midnight, and ask him, like, on WhatsApp, you know, "What, what is your opinion about, um, four marriages in the Islamic context?" And he would just send a funny reply like, "Oh," he's like, "I think I'm getting, like, four personalities in, in you already. Why would I have [laughs] a second wife?"

Adam Grant 28:05 [laughs]

Malala Yousafzai 28:07 Or sometimes I would say, "You know, what if, like, your wife is earning more than you? Do you have a problem with that?" And he would say, "I would be blessed if my wife is earning more and I don't have to do anything, and I..." You know, like we [laughs] that we have, like, everything we need. So I thought, "Okay, like, he is just so secure, and he answers everything with such charm, uh, and, and intelligence." So, uh, yeah, like I, I got to know him, and I knew he was the right person. But it... when somebody asks me about marriage now, I do not recommend that marriage is the right decision for every woman out there, and I'm also not saying that it is the worst decision a woman can make for herself. [laughs] I think we have to acknowledge the reality of how still, like, tens of millions of girls are becoming brides when they're still children. They're losing their future. We have to talk about how, um, there is this inequality and, um, and this imbalance of power when it comes to this. But I think we all, we are also capable of redefining these institutions and redefining these norms as well. So I hope that it opens up a conversation where people can talk more openly and, and just think about it. Like, how can we make it better? How can we redefine it?

Adam Grant 29:27 I loved one of the ways that you did that, which is you told, you told Asser that you wouldn't take his name, but you were happy to offer yours.

Malala Yousafzai 29:33 Yeah, more than happy. It's... the offer is still on the table. [laughs]

Adam Grant 29:38 Good to know. Mal-

Malala Yousafzai 29:39 [laughs]

Adam Grant 29:39 ... I, I have to say, this image of you grilling him at midnight via WhatsApp is hilarious.

Malala Yousafzai 29:45 [laughs]

Adam Grant 29:46 [laughs] It, it sounds like you were testing his feminist credentials in a way.

Malala Yousafzai 29:49 Yes, yes. I think, I think he is, he's a feminist. He, he, he doesn't just talk about it. I think he proves it through his actions, and I think we need feminist men, women who are showing us how to be feminists by action.

Adam Grant 30:06 One of the things I admire most about you is the, the courage that you show in standing up for yourself and for women and girls. Um, and I think we, we saw it when you first burst onto the world stage standing up against the Taliban. Uh, we, we saw it in this, you know, in this little example of, [laughs] you know, standing up to your parents and to your now husband, uh, about, you know, what kind of marriage you wanted to have. There's one situation, though, where you are a coward.

Malala Yousafzai 30:32 Hmm.

Adam Grant 30:34 It's, it's with your friends on your honeymoon.

Malala Yousafzai 30:38 Wow. You know what? You are the first one asking [laughs] about that experience.

Adam Grant 30:44 [laughs]

Malala Yousafzai 30:45 Because there, there are so many topics in this book that, like, this is just a small part of the, of the story. So basically, yes, I was on this honeymoon, uh, with my husband, of course, because a honeymoon should be with your husband only. And a friend of mine asked where I was, and I said, "I'm in Turkey," and they said, "Oh," like, you know, "It's a friend's birthday. It would be nice to be together." And I said, "Well, I'm in Turkey. Feel free [laughs] to join if you can." And they did.

Adam Grant 31:14 No.

Malala Yousafzai 31:14 They did. Six of my friends showed up on our honeymoon. It was fun.

Adam Grant 31:18 How did, how did this snowball from one friend to six?

Malala Yousafzai 31:21 We don't-

Adam Grant 31:21 And why did they think it was okay to join you on your honeymoon?

Malala Yousafzai 31:23 Then the other friend's friends wanna come, and then before you know it, it's a whole group of, like, eight, eight of you then. So I remember, like, [laughs] we were taking a, a boat ride, and we were visiting the, the, the beautiful mosques in Turkey, and in every photo there's, like, eight of us and yeah. [laughs]

Adam Grant 31:43 Well-

Malala Yousafzai 31:43 I know-

Adam Grant 31:43 But, but-

Malala Yousafzai 31:43 ... Asar was traumatized. Asar is like-

Adam Grant 31:45 [laughs]

Malala Yousafzai 31:45 ... you know, "I, I don't know."

Adam Grant 31:47 Why, why didn't you say no?

Malala Yousafzai 31:49 It's a very good question. I have struggled to say no my whole life.

Adam Grant 31:54 I, I think there's still some work to do on this front. I think it sounds like me, you... Uh, it, it sounds to me like you were, [laughs] like you were trying to give to your friends, but you were taking from your husband.

Malala Yousafzai 32:03 Yeah. Well, [laughs] I think you should have, do a separate interview with him. I think he has a lot to say about that. Um, I think on, on this point about giving, I was just thinking about it recently, that time is limited. Time is precious. The things that you want to make come true also need, you know, s- so much of your focus and attention. Uh, so, so I try to remind myself of, of the bigger picture, and that time is a, is, is, you know, a, a limited resource.

Adam Grant 32:32 I, I think it's, it's a really important point, that it's impossible to please everyone, and the best you can do is make sure that you're disappointing the right people-

Malala Yousafzai 32:41 Yeah

Adam Grant 32:41 ... so that you're, you're clear on, you know, on who you wanna show up for first and foremost. And if that means letting other people down, so be it.

Malala Yousafzai 32:49 Yes, yes.

Adam Grant 32:50 I think it's time for a lightning round. Are you ready for some rapid-fire questions?

Malala Yousafzai 32:53 Yes.

Adam Grant 32:55 Okay. What's the worst advice you've gotten?

Malala Yousafzai 32:58 One thing that I have heard from people, especially from Pakistan and from, like, my own community, is that they tell me that they're so proud of me and that I represent them. It, it's, it's such a heavy word when somebody tells you that you represent them because you have to think about that identity and how you reflect that in the way you do your work, in the way you dress up, in the way you talk about different causes and different issues. So I stay optimistic, but then it's really, um, quite heavy to hear a response like that where people ask you to be a representative or an ambassador for, like, a, a whole community or culture or, you know, or a belief. Yeah.

Adam Grant 33:46 It, it sounds like a more, a more extreme version of the cultural pressure that so many women face-

Malala Yousafzai 33:52 Yeah

Adam Grant 33:52 ... to be caregivers and supporters and nurturers and, um, be, you know, either subservient to others or to constantly be sacrificing themselves to serve others.

Malala Yousafzai 34:03 Yeah.

Adam Grant 34:03 So your best advice would be to not do that.

Malala Yousafzai 34:07 Yes. I think it's so important for us women to know what we want, and if there's so much noise around us and we keep listening to what people expect from us, I think we will lose a sense of our identity.

Adam Grant 34:23 How about you're arranging your dream dinner party. Who's at the table, alive or dead?

Malala Yousafzai 34:29 Marie Curie, Benazir Bhutto, the first female prime minister of Pakistan.

Adam Grant 34:34 Yep.

Malala Yousafzai 34:35 Malala of Meywand, the Afghan heroine. Uh, my father named me after her. I, I mean, the list is just so long. I really want my college friends to be there, and I want to bring so many of the girls I have met in my activism and advocacy, from, like, you know, girls in Afghanistan to Nigeria to Pakistan, and it could be, like, a really fun group of young women who come together and just chat about life problems and astrology and love life and anything. Anything. I just want that dinner.

Adam Grant 35:11 I love everything about your answer except the casual mention of astrology.

Malala Yousafzai 35:17 Oh, I knew it.

Adam Grant 35:18 Malala-

Malala Yousafzai 35:18 I knew it

Adam Grant 35:18 ... please

Malala Yousafzai 35:18 The trigger word.

Adam Grant 35:19 Please.

Malala Yousafzai 35:19 The trigger word.

Adam Grant 35:20 You can't, you can't possibly believe in this. It's made up.

Malala Yousafzai 35:22 [laughs] Okay. I, I mean, there's something about it. Come on. Like, do you believe, like, mil-

Adam Grant 35:29 Nope

Malala Yousafzai 35:29 ... not millions, like, billions of people follow astrology and they can nod and they can say, "Yeah, I think this makes sense," or, like, "I can relate to it"? How are you rejecting this evidence of billions of people, Adam Grant?

Adam Grant 35:43 Oh, Malala. Billions of people have believed false things many times in the past throughout human history.

Malala Yousafzai 35:50 [laughs]

Adam Grant 35:51 And I form my beliefs based on science, as you know. And-

Malala Yousafzai 35:54 Uh-huh

Adam Grant 35:54 ... Jackson Lu did this massive study of over 170,000 people in China finding a zero correlation between your zodiac sign and your personality traits, and [laughs] there's, there's not even a way that the position of the sun and the moon and the stars when you were born could possibly affect your psychology.

Malala Yousafzai 36:16 Adam, what is your star sign?

Adam Grant 36:18 [laughs] I can't tell you that because it's meaningless. Are you, are you just baiting me right now?

Malala Yousafzai 36:23 You know what? Because you-

Adam Grant 36:23 Wait, are you doing... Are-

Malala Yousafzai 36:25 Your, your answer might explain-

Adam Grant 36:27 Are you doing what your brothers do to you to me?

Malala Yousafzai 36:27 ... your answer might explain why you think that way. You know what I mean? So-

Adam Grant 36:33 [laughs]

Malala Yousafzai 36:33 Yeah

Adam Grant 36:33 ... hilarious.

Malala Yousafzai 36:34 Yeah.

Adam Grant 36:34 No, this is, this is pro-social teasing right now, and I don't like being the victim of it.

Malala Yousafzai 36:38 I know. So my husband is a Virgo, and he also, like, rolls his eyes when I talk about astrology, and I was like, "Ugh, such a..."

Adam Grant 36:44 As he should.

Malala Yousafzai 36:44 I'm like, I'm like, "Ugh, exactly. That's what a Virgo would say," so [laughs]

Adam Grant 36:48 [laughs] I'll send you my rant about this. Uh, but I, I just have to add one thing here, which is [laughs] even, even if you believed in astrology and ignored all the evidence that it has no bearing on who we are or what we're like, um, you, you, we all have the wrong signs. Because [laughs] the astrological charts are 2,000 years out of date. And so Astro's not actually a Virgo.

Malala Yousafzai 37:13 Okay, Adam. What else, what else do you want, huh?

Adam Grant 37:17 [laughs]

Malala Yousafzai 37:17 In your campaign against astrology?

Adam Grant 37:20 I, you know, I, I, if people do it for fun-

Malala Yousafzai 37:22 Yes

Adam Grant 37:22 ... I'm fine with it. But I do worry that it's a gateway drug to believing other false things.

Malala Yousafzai 37:27 Yeah, no, I get it. Yeah.

Adam Grant 37:28 And there is, there is evidence that people who believe in astrology are more likely to believe that the moon landing was faked and that 9/11 was an inside job. And I, I think that we need to stand for critical thinking in the world.

Malala Yousafzai 37:39 Okay. I, I agree. I think we should [laughs] we should draw a line. So [laughs] you can like-

Adam Grant 37:43 Yes

Malala Yousafzai 37:43 ... you can sort of read your, uh, you know, about your star sign or just look at, you know, the compatibility of the potential partner you are considering. But [laughs] I think there are other things that, um, make a lot more sense than the astrological charts.

Adam Grant 38:00 Yes.

Malala Yousafzai 38:00 So it's, we don't, I don't think-

Adam Grant 38:01 Progress

Malala Yousafzai 38:01 ... we can, you know, we, we, we agree on a, a, a lot of things, yes. But I would not fully-

Adam Grant 38:07 I, I-

Malala Yousafzai 38:07 ... dismiss it, yes. [laughs]

Adam Grant 38:09 Well, we, we can, we can differ on that one.

Malala Yousafzai 38:12 Yes.

Adam Grant 38:12 But I'm glad, I'm glad that you think we should stop making life decisions based on our horoscopes, and we should stop discriminating against people based on their birthdays.

Malala Yousafzai 38:22 Yes, Adam, you said that very strongly with a lot of passion. So [laughs] yes.

Adam Grant 38:27 Uh, well, thank, thank you for, uh, for making me suffer through that.

Malala Yousafzai 38:30 Yeah.

Adam Grant 38:31 All right, I'm gonna go back to the lightning round here. Um, just give me in one sentence, uh, do you have a hot take, an unpopular opinion that you're eager to defend?

Malala Yousafzai 38:39 I mean, I have been defending it already. [laughs]

Adam Grant 38:44 [laughs]

Malala Yousafzai 38:44 It's good to look at the boy's or the girl's star sign before you go on a date with them, 'cause it will give you an idea. [laughs]

Adam Grant 38:52 Boo.

Malala Yousafzai 38:53 Boo, yes. [laughs]

Adam Grant 38:55 Boo. Who invited you? Okay, tell me, is there something you've changed your mind about recently?

Malala Yousafzai 39:00 I wouldn't say I changed my mind, but I think, uh, it has reaffirmed, uh, the way I see activism right now. I have just realized how important it is for us to focus on collective advocacy and collective activism. Uh, to know that unity and becoming one voice is a key driver to change. Um, y- you know, like, I think us individually can start a movement and we can, like, begin a new conversation, but for the real change to happen, we have to join hands.

Adam Grant 39:32 Great. And what's a question you have for me?

Malala Yousafzai 39:35 So you have a daughter who might be joining university in a few years. What is your message to girls that age, and what is your message to their parents in how they can be more supportive?

Adam Grant 39:50 Wow. Oh, that's a great question. Probably the first message that I would give is you don't have to choose a practical major in college.

Malala Yousafzai 39:59 Mm.

Adam Grant 39:59 We've reached a point now where in most westernized countries at least, um, girls are outperforming boys in education. And with that opportunity, I think comes both, you know, the aspiration and also the expectation of, um, you know, of accomplishing something big professionally. And with that comes this pressure of, oh, I need to have a practical major in college so that I can have a successful career. And the reality is nobody has any idea what jobs are gonna exist in 10 or 20 or 30 years. And [laughs] even if you tried to choose a practical major, you might miss the mark. And so I think the best thing you can do in college is to study something you're truly interested in and let your curiosity guide what you learn. And of course, if you do that, uh, you ought to build a set of thinking skills and communication skills that serve you well in your career. And my message to parents is stop pressuring your kids to choose a practical major. Even if you look at the data from the last couple of decades, um, you know, if, if you look at software engineers, for example, of course, they get an early advantage when it comes to their starting salaries. But by the time, uh, by the time your kids are in their late 20s, English majors have actually caught up. And there's a premium on being able to explain your ideas, um, being able to think creatively, being able to communicate effectively. And so I think parents should back off-

Malala Yousafzai 41:19 [laughs]

Adam Grant 41:20 ... when it comes to that kind of pressure.

Malala Yousafzai 41:21 Yeah. I mean, I would just simply add, Joanna, don't be shy in trying new things. Have a lot of fun. And this is going to be an amazing time in your life. So go learn. Learn through friends, learn through books, learn through everything that is around you, and have a lot, a lot of fun.

Adam Grant 41:44 Okay. Uh, just a couple of last things I wanna get before we wrap. Malala, what's the most important lesson you've learned from your parents?

Malala Yousafzai 41:51 My dad, I'm really proud of my dad, uh, because he showed to me what it means to be a feminist person. And he was a feminist man before he had even heard the word feminism. And what that means is just understanding the privileges that you have, understanding how society is limiting and restricting women from equal opportunities. Simple things like allowing his daughter to be in school was a major, major thing that he did differently for his daughter, because a lot of parents were not doing that. When I became an activist, uh, at age 11 in Swat Valley, in that community, he did not stop me. And I'm often asked by people, w- you know, how was my story unique? I just remind them that there was nothing unique about me. The only thing unique was that my father was allowing me, and the other girls who wanted to be activists were stopped by their fathers. So men can play a huge role in dismantling and challenging patriarchy. They can play a huge role in redefining gender norms and expectations. They can be our allies as well. So yeah, this is how I, I talk about my dad a lot, and the same way about my mom. You know, my mom and I have a tough relationship, but she's been such a strong and incredible woman. She restarted her education when we moved to the UK. She's been learning English and different subjects. So I'm just really, really proud of her, that she's determined and, and she does not give up.

Adam Grant 43:25 That's amazing.

Malala Yousafzai 43:26 Yeah.

Adam Grant 43:26 I really, I wanna say, although I booed you earlier-

Malala Yousafzai 43:30 [laughs]

Adam Grant 43:30 ... when you brought up astrology, I, I, I can't think of anything more worthwhile than cheering for the work that you do. I think you're an incredible role model for leading a meaningful life, and also for a, for leading a joyful life.

Malala Yousafzai 43:46 Thank you. This was so wonderful speaking to you. And, uh, thank you. Thank you for the opportunity. [upbeat music]