Re:Thinking with Adam GrantRethinking your career identity with Oscar winner Ke Huy Quan | ReThinking
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
45 min read · 9,055 words- 0:00 – 1:19
Intro
- KQKe Huy Quan
I thought nobody would recognize me. Stupid me, like how naive of me-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- KQKe Huy Quan
... to think that I can go to film school in, in incognito. And first day, I, I went to a sound class, and my sound teacher was talking about the brilliance of a good sound design is, and you know, he was showing clips of Jaws, Raiders of the Lost Ark, Star Wars, and Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom.
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, no.
- KQKe Huy Quan
I was in that clip, and when it was over, the teacher said, "You know, while Star Wars was groundbreaking, you know, Jaws was, was, you know, was incredible. Temple of Doom, it didn't quite work." And the entire class broke out into laughter [laughs] because they knew just sitting a few feet away is Short Round from Temple of Doom. [upbeat music] Thank you for having me. This is, uh, this is really exciting.
- AGAdam Grant
Well, it's not every day that I get to talk to Short Round, Data, and Waymond Wang all at once.
- KQKe Huy Quan
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
You know, as somebody who spends my, basically my whole career studying how to rethink things, you are a poster child for it. You have so many great rethinking moments throughout your life, and I, I wanna talk about a lot of them, but we, we have to begin with your origin story because just the way that you got to the US and became who you are is remarkable and almost unbelievable. So I would love for our audience just to get a little bit of a taste of that.
- 1:19 – 4:43
From refugee child to a story worth telling
- KQKe Huy Quan
Yes. I, you know, I was born in a family of nine. My parents had nine children, and we were comfortable living in Vietnam. And all of a sudden, you know, this war came, created all this chaos, especially for the ethnically Chinese, uh, people that were living in Saigon at that time. You know, we were targeted because of the, uh, of the geopolitics between China and Vietnam. And so when North Vietnam won and took over, there were a lot of challenges for, for, for families like ours, and I could not imagine what my parents had to go through, and also the, the incredibly difficult decision that they had to make to get all of us out. And I remember I was only seven years old. I was asleep in the middle of the night when my dad woke me up, carried me, and took me to a waiting car in an alley, and I had no idea what was going on. I thought it was all a dream. And I was in this car. There was a stranger, uh, uh, with us, and, and before I know it, we arrived at the beach, and we were walking toward a fishing boat that was waiting for us. And when we got on, and, and just as we were about to, to leave, uh, we got caught. There were flashlights and police officers, you know, screaming, uh, shouting, you know, telling us to, to, to come back. And, uh, and before I know it, I was in jail, and I was seven years old the first time I was in jail. And that was the first attempt, uh, out of Vietnam. We made a, a total of three. So I ended up be- going back to jail the second time, and the second time I spent three months in jail. So that was... It was quite an ordeal.
- AGAdam Grant
Wow.
- KQKe Huy Quan
And by the third time, uh, it wasn't in secrecy anymore. It wasn't in hiding. It was all out in the open. You pay to get a spot on the boat, and on that day, there were thousands of people leaving Saigon. Took hours and hours for us to embark, and by the time we did get on the boat, I realized that we were not passengers at all. We were cargo. So yeah, so that was the, that was the beginning of, of my journey.
- AGAdam Grant
Wow. Do you ever feel like your life is a movie?
- KQKe Huy Quan
You know, I, I, interestingly enough, I never thought of it that way until I started writing this book. And when I did, you know, I was faced with this challenge of, okay, how am I... You know, I've never written one before. I didn't know how to go about it. Uh, so I can only do it the way I knew how, which was through the lens of a movie. The, the only difference is the lead character is me, and I had to ask all these questions that you would ask if you were writing a script. What happened to this lead character? Why is he the way he is? You know, what happened to him? Why does he feel this way? Because I wasn't raised to be introspective, I didn't have any of those answers. I had to find out myself going on this journey writing this book, and I had to dig really deep and kinda, you know, revisit some of the wounds that I thought had healed, but they actually didn't. It was just buried for, for, for decades. And so it was, it was an, a, an interesting journey because it was certainly a self-discovery for me, for myself as well.
- AGAdam Grant
Well, that, that is a lot of what I wanna talk about. You know, not only were you the protagonist, right? [laughs] In this, in this movie, you're also writer, director, producer-
- KQKe Huy Quan
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
... stunt coordinator. You're doing it all, right?
- KQKe Huy Quan
Mm.
- AGAdam Grant
So you, you made it to the US and I understand, if I remember correctly, [laughs] you, you weren't intending to audition to be on screen at all. You were there with your brother. Is that right?
- 4:43 – 6:35
Accidental discovery: coaching his brother into a life-changing audition
- KQKe Huy Quan
Yeah. It was, you know, on, on, on a fateful, you know, Saturday morning while we were getting tutored because our English comprehension wasn't that great at the time. So we were getting tutored, and we were just sitting on, you know, sitting outside on one of those lunch, uh, benches and, uh, and we saw people going into the building, and we had no idea what was going on. But my brother was really interested, and we found out that they were, you know, having an open call, and they were looking for a Chinese kid to be in the movie. And that was all the info that we, that, that we have. And after our tutoring, my brother, you know, wanted to stay and, and, and go check out what was going on and 'cause he wanted to audition. So I tagged along, and when we walked into the hallway, there was... It was just filled with, you know, Asian kids and, and their parents. And it was just me and my brother there, and we were given sides, couple of pieces of paper, and, and the casting director told my brother to memorize the lines that were highlighted. And, uh, so when, when it was his turn, he was doing well, but I, I felt like he was a bit nervous and, and, and the casting directors weren't seeing what I, what, you know, seeing the potential that I saw in him, and I really wanted him to, to stand out. So it was out of that, that my love for my brother, I t- I got out of my chair and I got into his line site and started, you know, screaming directions at him in Cantonese so the casting directors wouldn't understand. And he was asked to, to show different emotions such as like, you know, euphoria or, or, or, uh, anger, uh, or excitement, all of that. And, uh, and I would just coach him behind the casting directors. Uh, and when he was done- And I thought, you know, we were about to leave. The casting directors asked if I wanted to stay and read for them as well, and that's what happened. So and, you know, and, and I said this, you know, quite often, I always feel like I was just there, um, at the right time, at the right place, and I, and I felt extremely lucky, uh, to be chosen.
- 6:35 – 8:58
Child stardom and transforming trauma through Short Round
- AGAdam Grant
Well, you went, you went from very unlucky to very lucky in a, in an unusually [chuckles] short period of time, and then all of a sudden, your life must have changed. I mean, [chuckles] you were in Indiana Jones, you were in Goonies. What was that like?
- KQKe Huy Quan
You said it. I mean, it's such extreme for me, especially when I was just 12 years old. That was when I, when I got first, first got discovered. What was amazing for me was, in a way, Short Round was going through the same thing that I went through, but, you know, he was braver. He-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- KQKe Huy Quan
... you know, he was more adventurous. He was heroic. You know, he saved Indy's ass. Whereas-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- KQKe Huy Quan
... what I went through, it was traumatic. I was nervous, I was lost, I was confused. I, you know, I, I came out of it having really changed my life in ways I, I, I, I couldn't understand then. But the Short Round experience kinda took that experience and turned it and made it into a positive experience for me. That was incredible, and I think that was also the reason because, because of that fond memory that I had, the juxtaposition between the two adventures that I was, that I had, really made me fell in love with this industry and made me fell in love with acting. And, and I think having written this book, I now understand, I now see the thread, who I used to be, and why I fell in love with this industry so passionately.
- AGAdam Grant
This is one of the themes that just fascinates me as a psychologist, is, you know, I think to a lot of us, you're just playing a role, but it sounds like you actually took on some of Short Round's qualities, that as you have to show confidence and courage, you internalize it at some level. Did you become the role you were playing to some extent?
- KQKe Huy Quan
I, I don't think I, I had the, the, the wisdom or the maturity to draw the parallel, but what Short Round was going through, being chased by bad guys, being, you know, getting locked up, and, you know, when we got out of the, um, you know, jumped out of the plane and landed on a raft, it was very similar to, to my, to my life just a few years ago. But now I see the parallel, and I think it definitely, um, it reshaped that experience that I had, uh, from Vietnam, for sure.
- AGAdam Grant
Wow. So you go from bad luck to good luck, and then it-
- KQKe Huy Quan
And then bad luck again [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
... a big stroke of bad luck again. [laughs] Yeah, it's like the rollercoaster ride. What happened in, uh, the mid to late '80s?
- 8:58 – 12:22
The crash: when Hollywood stopped calling and solitude took over
- KQKe Huy Quan
You know, I'll start here. Um, when Temple of Doom came out, and all of a sudden I was in, in the limelight, and everywhere I go, people would recognize me. I was on a movie screen. I was on television. I was in newspapers and magazines, and I got travel all over the world promoting the movie. That was an amazing experience. As a kid, I didn't know, I didn't know what to expect. Nobody prepared me for it. Uh, I just kinda existed, you know, in that environment. But before I got too comfortable, that limelight was gone, and then pretty soon, just a few years later, my, you know, my career went south, just as I was coming of age, uh, when I was, you know, 15, 16. So that was, that was a really difficult period for me. I went from working all the time to now going back to school full time, and when I went back to school, I didn't have any friends because I was n- never there to make any friends, and I felt really lonely. And it, it was compounded, you know, by the fact that no, you know, Hollywood wasn't calling anymore. So it made it even worse. And so when I was 18 years old, when I graduate high school, and everybody was full of dreams, full of aspirations, full of excitement, I was the opposite. I was, again, lost and confused and disappointed and didn't really know where to go and was just really in a sh- in a, in a short span of, of just a few years, going from, like you said, w- you know, extreme good luck to now all of that was taken away from me. So, and, and I didn't know, and I didn't know what to do. And back then, I didn't have the resources to look into, okay, what is going on? Why am I feeling so dejected? Why am I feeling so depressed? I was raised in a family where if, if, if something happens, I was taught to, to brush away my feelings and, and just, you know, keep your head up and, and keep moving. Life moves on. You know, don't dwell on the bad stuff. Uh, so I, I, I didn't, you know, I, I, I didn't have the wisdom to, to fully understand what I was going through. And looking back, writing this book, I realized I actually spent a lot of time in solitude, and I, I, I gotta say I got quite comfortable [chuckles] uh, spending time, uh, by myself. And I found that sometimes, at that time, you know, it was like addictive because it, it was, it was comfort. It was familiarity, being by myself rather than going out and not knowing how I would be perceived and all of that. Uh, so my, my early years was hard.
- AGAdam Grant
Wow. I mean, yeah, it must have felt at some level like your future was in your past.
- KQKe Huy Quan
Yeah. The thought that my best years were behind me was the scariest feeling that I had held onto for many years. It was the scary feeling that I, that I hid for a long time. I never told anybody. And it was, it was horrible. I mean, it w- you know, looking back to think, wow, like your best year was when you were 12 years old. How scary is that when you were turning 18 or 21, and that's when you were supposed to have, like, this incredible, bright future ahead of you, whereas I thought it was just behind me already.
- AGAdam Grant
Uh, I mean, that's just devastating. I'm curious about how you dealt with that. So you graduate high school. Did you get any feedback about why Hollywood wasn't calling, why acting roles weren't turning up, and how did you think through then what to do next?
- 12:22 – 13:37
Decades of “waiting for the turning point” and the identity dilemma
- KQKe Huy Quan
I mean, I was just told that there were not a lot, there weren't, there weren't any roles for me. Or, or people who look like me. And there was no way for me to, to do anything but just to accept the fact that Hollywood no longer had a space for me, and I didn't know what to do. I was really confused. But I, I just thought I ... You know, the reason why I didn't give up was because I was still so young, and I thought I had all the time in the world. And as long as I stay in the game, as long as I'm, I'm, I, you know, I'm patient and just wait, eventually something will come along and it will change things. It'll turn things around. And I spent so long, couple of decades, waiting for that turning point, and every time that one project would come, I would say, "This is it. This is the turning point I'm looking for." And I would pour my heart and soul into that character, into that role, into that movie, hoping that it's gonna, it's gonna become a success and, and that's when the job offers will keep coming in. But then that movie would bomb at the box office, and then I was so disappointed. And every single time that I thought that was the turning point, it wasn't.
- AGAdam Grant
Now, during this period, you, you abandoned acting, right? You quit altogether. How long did you just walk away from acting for?
- 13:37 – 16:37
Reinventing through film school—and the ‘Temple of Doom’ classroom moment
- KQKe Huy Quan
At first it wasn't an easy decision. I was lost for so yea- so many years, and this was, you know, from 18 to 25. So in a span of more than seven years actually, that I sat by the phone and waiting for, for it to ring. All I knew was something needed to be changed. I didn't want to leave this industry altogether, and, and the only thing that made sense was to go to school. Go, you know, go to college. At that time, I didn't know anything about movie making. The only thing that I knew was, was acting, what was in front of the camera. And I thought that if I expand my knowledge and fully understand what this industry is about, how to make movies, how movies, you know, are put together, maybe that would change my luck, my career. So I, I enroll. I first enroll in a city college because I, you know, you know, going to film school is, is, uh, expensive. I took as many classes as I could. I went to summer school to try to really shorten that time span, and then applied for USC film school, and thank God they accepted me, and I loved every minute of it. You know, there was this funny incident, uh, that happened in my f- uh, first day of, of film school where I thought nobody would recognize me. Stupid me. Like, how naive of me-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- KQKe Huy Quan
... to think that I can go to film school in- in- incognito. And first day I, I went to a sound class and my sound teacher, uh, was talking about the brilliance of a good sound design is, and you know, he was showing clips of Jaws, Raiders of the Lost Ark, Star Wars, and Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom.
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, no.
- KQKe Huy Quan
And that clip happened to be ... Like, I was in that clip, and when it was over, the teacher said, you know, "While Star Wars was groundbreaking, Jaws was, was, you know, was incredible. Temple of Doom, it didn't quite work." And the entire class broke out into laughter because they knew, just sitting a few feet away, is Short Round from Temple of Doom. But that, you know, those two years at film school really, really helped me a lot. It, it, it made me find, you know, the belonging that I've been searching for in a long time.
- AGAdam Grant
I mean, there's so many things that are, that are striking about that story. First of all, for you to rethink your identity, to say, "I'm not just an actor. I love movies." Right? There's a broadening there that gives you flexibility. And secondly then to say, "Okay, there's a whole community of people like me." Um, it sounds like they didn't all look like you, but they shared your interests and your passion.
- KQKe Huy Quan
Yeah. Um, uh, and also, you know, because I started so late, all my, um, classmates, they were, you know, 18, 19, 20. They were really young. Um, and everyone was from different background, but the common thread that we all shared was our passion for the movie. So I didn't feel different. I felt like I belong. Uh, and that was a great feeling to have after years of trying to, you know, to find my own worth.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. And [laughs] you know, it's, it's, it's such an unexpected turn then for you to say, "Okay, acting not working right now. I'm gonna become a stunt coordinator." How did that happen?
- 16:37 – 18:28
Behind the camera: action work, X-Men, and widening his creative horizon
- KQKe Huy Quan
When I graduated from film school, I got a call from a, a, a really famous action director named Corey Yuen, who has done some incredible work in Hong Kong, but he was now working in Hollywood. And but we met years earlier on a project that didn't pan out, but we kinda kept in touch, and when he found out that, that I went to film school, he, he called me and says, "Hey, you know, um, I, I just got offered this little movie in Toronto. Would you come work for me?" And this was, like, right out of school, so I, I was so excited. I packed my bag, got on a flight, and when I got there, it wasn't a little movie that I thought. It was the X-Men, and I was so excited, and that's where I met, you know, a young Kevin Feige, who was just an associate producer at that time, and only a few years later he would, you know, start this incredible career as the head of MCU. And how full circle that was, 'cause I met him many years later and offered me Loki. Um, so, and, and you know, I, I met a, a young Hugh Jackman. So it was, um, it w- it was a great time for me because it was my first job behind the camera, and also my, my own experience in, in martial arts, 'cause I have a black belt in TaeKwonDo, and I was u- I was able to utilize everything I learned up until that point. And also, I was learning this brand new language of, oh, how to design an action sequence, how to shoot it, how to edit it. So it made me think outside the box. I'm no longer thinking from an actor's perspective, but from the perspective of someone behind the camera. So then, you know, my horizon widened. I'm no longer seeing within just the frame of the camera.
- AGAdam Grant
And then you were behind the camera basically for the next decade and a half, right?
- KQKe Huy Quan
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
Did you give up on acting during that time? Did you say, "Okay, that, that part of my life is over," or were you still hoping in the back of your mind that one day you'd be in front of a camera again?
- 18:28 – 21:38
The actor identity resurfaces: quiet rehearsals and a humiliating stunt wake-up call
- KQKe Huy Quan
When I decided to go to, to, to film school, I think that was when I convinced myself ... that I no longer want to be an actor. I, I mean, I, I don't think that was true, but I was able to convince myself that, you know, my acting career is behind me now. I need to focus on, on what's ahead. So when I started working behind the camera, uh, I was content. I was, I was totally fine. But every once in a while when I see an actor does something incredible in front of the screen, I couldn't help myself but to think, "Oh, if it was me, how would I do it?" And then I would go back home and say the lines the way I would say it. And it's the, it's in those quiet moments that the actor in me wants to crawl back to the surface. But then before it, it does, I push it back down. I buried it again. And, and that happened over the course of, yeah, m- m- two decades.
- AGAdam Grant
Wow. That's such an interesting way to capture the dynamic that on the one hand you're pushing the dream aside, but on the other hand, the identity doesn't wanna c- it doesn't wanna go away. It keeps popping up and saying, "Hey, wait a minute. Don't forget about me."
- KQKe Huy Quan
There was a project that I did in Hong Kong. And in Hong Kong w- when you work in Hong Kong, especially when you work on, on, on an action team, you wear many different hats. You know, you help design action sequences, you, uh, you know, you do stunts and all that. But one of the thing that is required of you is to be on camera. If they need, you know, stunt guys or bodies on the ground or s- just somebody, you know, to, to, to be in the background, that's required of you. And there was this one movie that I did, and I was on the stunt team, and there was not enough bodies for this wide shot. And the director... You know, Corey Yuen was so protective. He was so nice. He knew my background, and he didn't want me to do that, so he kept telling the director, "That's all we have. That's all we have." And I was standing, like, behind him, and the director said, "Hey, wait a minute. What, what about, what about this guy? Can't he put on a costume and, and, and lay on the ground, too?" And once when he said that, I knew I had no choice but to do it. And, you know, the, the villains in that movie had these, like, face paint on their face. So I went to the makeup person and I said, "Can you make mine bigger? Can you cover my face more?" 'Cause I, I was afraid that the audience would recognize me. So I was in makeup. I put on this costume. And they wet the floor just so it would look better. It was a night shot. Uh, and there was this pool of water that I was ordered to lay down on. My costume was completely wet. And in that moment, it made me realize, wow, I was no longer the actor I used to be. And I-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah
- KQKe Huy Quan
... I needed to, I needed to believe in that. Uh, otherwise I, I, I couldn't have, uh, I couldn't have done that. Every time I try to move... The further away I try to move from my acting career, there's that string that keeps on pulling me back, but I always feel that pull.
- 21:38 – 27:04
The whisper gets loud: regret avoidance, Crazy Rich Asians, and the leap back
- AGAdam Grant
It's so interesting. This actually relates to some research I did years ago. So Justin Berg, Victoria Johnson, and I were interested in the question of what happens when somebody has an unanswered calling for a kind of work they're passionate about, that they find meaningful, but for usually practical reasons they don't get to pursue.
- KQKe Huy Quan
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
And we found that oftentimes people coped with that feeling by crafting their jobs, tinkering with what they did every day to incorporate a little bit of it into their, their work. So a teacher who missed a calling to be a musician would bring a guitar into class and, you know, and play a song and sing for students as an example. And it seems like you were doing a version of this. Um, you, [chuckles] you know, you found a way to stay close to movies. You're getting these little tastes of acting. And on the one hand, that's a way to express your calling. On the other hand, we found that ironically, that often made people feel more regret and more disappointment because this, this career that they could have had, that they wish they had, was sort of smacking them in the face every once in a while. What was that like for you?
- KQKe Huy Quan
You know, I, I think all those years, the one consistent thing every time, you know, in, in those quiet moments and I'm, like, thinking, especially when my career behind the camera wasn't going anywhere, there was one question that I kept asking myself was, you know, "Am I taking the easy route? Am I just letting time carry me forward instead of chasing what I'm passionate about?" You know, I, I earn enough to put, to pay the bills, but that was it. There was really... You know, I wasn't really excited about waking up the next morning. And it's those times, and Spielberg talked about this, it's that whisper that keeps on coming back, and it was during those quiet nights where, quiet, sleepless nights where I'm just staring at the ceiling and then I begin to hear it. And I would, I would just ignore it. I would just ignore it in the beginning. "No, this is absurd. I mean, those days are long gone. Those..." I mean, don't even try to tell myself, "Ke, don't go down that route because it, it, it, it w- it won't end well for you." Uh, and I'll push back, and then sure enough, a few weeks later or a month later, that whisper comes back again. And every time it comes back, it just gets louder and louder until one day I could not ignore it. And what really changed, what really made me confront it was when I went to see "Crazy Rich Asians". It was a movie that, that I didn't think Hollywood would ever make. I didn't think people who look like me would be, would be at the center of a story. 'Cause I was so conditioned to think, you know, all I'm good for is just marginal. You know, we're only good as sidekicks, not the main character o- of the movie.
- AGAdam Grant
Wow. Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow. Oh, there, there are so many things that, that I love about this story. First of all, the question of am I just taking the path of least resistance. Powerful. It's profound. I think it's something we should all ask because it is easy to coast along once you find a niche and seems like you are comfortable enough. And you didn't have to try anything different
- KQKe Huy Quan
I wanna go back and, and, and, and, and add a little bit to the, the path of least resistance. I would meet people that are older, in, you know, in their 60s or 70s, and, you know, we would sit down and, and, and talk. And what really scared me was hearing their own stories about how, oh, when they were younger, they didn't have the guts to try this, or they didn't have the courage to, uh, to go after what they want. And so they ended up taking a job that was just, you know, that just paid enough to cover all the expenses. And I just see the regret in their eyes. And at that time, it was too late for them. You know, they were already at the end of their career. And, um, when I saw that and when I heard those stories, it really scared me because I kinda saw myself in, in their shoes. I kinda s- saw myself telling that story many years later. So when I saw, when I saw myself clearly, I thought, "Wow, I don't wanna be in my 70s and people ask me, 'What happened? Why?' Like, 'Didn't you ever wanna give it another try?'" It was all of those fear that, that, that was front and center by the time I decided to be an actor again. And like I said, "Crazy Rich Asians", it, it... Had that movie failed, I don't think I would've had the courage to, to step in front of the camera again. But it was almost like a sign for me. It was almost like the universe telling me, "Now is the time", because it became a phenomenon. And my wife always said this. You know, I would ask her, uh, like, "Why do you believe in me? Why, why... Like, why do you think I can achieve the impossible?" She believed in me so much. And, you know, she's a, she's a spiritual person, and she always believes in karma, and she sees the, you know, the good aura that I spread around, the goodness that I exhibit every day, and it's this key, "That goodness will one day come around for you." And sure enough, how odd is it when I decided to be an actor again, it was only two weeks later that I got the, the call for Everything Everywhere All at Once. So again, my wife was right all along. [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
It's amazing timing. And yeah, E- Echo definitely nailed it. I think, you know, in, in the language of Everything Everywhere All at Once, you did a reverse jump. You jumped-
- KQKe Huy Quan
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
... back into a former self.
- KQKe Huy Quan
Yeah. That's really good. Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
It's so fun to see life imitate art in that way. And-
- KQKe Huy Quan
Mm-hmm
- 27:04 – 28:53
Everything Everywhere as integration: three Waymonds and learning vulnerability
- AGAdam Grant
... it seems like you did, y- you did return to a former version of yourself, but now you are armed with a whole bunch of new tools, like your, your action film work, your work on X-Men, the stunt coordinating you did. A- as far as I'm concerned, when I watch Everything Everywhere All at Once, I think the fanny pack fight scene is one of the greatest fight scenes in film history. And it's hard to imagine that scene existing had you not done the pivot and the side quest, and I'd love to hear you talk about that.
- KQKe Huy Quan
All the hardship that I went through my entire journey allowed me to play this one character that has three different versions of him. The way I see it is the alpha Waymond was the easiest one for me to play because all my life I felt this responsibility to take care of the people around me. So I understand his mentality and I understand his physicality because I have that martial arts background. So that was an easy one. The most difficult character for me to play was Tax Waymond, you know, the, the, the mild mannered, um, husband of, of Michelle Yeoh's character, and it's because he wears his, his emotions on his sleeve. He's not afraid to be vulnerable. And my entire life leading up to that, before that, I was told to, to be a man. I was never raised in an, in an environment where I was encouraged to share my feelings or to be introspective or any of that. And for years, I've never shared my feelings with anyone. Even some of the really difficult stuff I didn't even share with, with my wife, Echo. Uh, so that was the most difficult character for me to play, and I understood that in order for me to play him, I really have to open up, and that was one of the hardest things I've ever done.
- AGAdam Grant
Your memoir is the next step in that journey, obviously, [laughs] if that was hard.
- 28:53 – 32:21
Memoir as the hardest work: reframing ‘refugee’ from shame to pride
- KQKe Huy Quan
The memoir was the most difficult thing I've ever done in my career-wise. And when I sat down to write this memoir, I realized that if I'm gonna do this, I would have to be brutally honest with myself, and that's the only way to do it. And I didn't know how hard that journey was gonna be until I sat down and write the first chapter.
- AGAdam Grant
What was the discovery that surprised you the most?
- KQKe Huy Quan
That I didn't really know myself. I didn't really know myself, uh, before. Also, what... It, it changed the way I see things, and the biggest thing that changed was how I view my early years as a refugee. Did you know the, the term fresh off the boat was coined to describe people like me and my family? And we were constantly reminded of that we were, we were not good enough. We were inferior. We were insufficient. And I think, I think that's why I kinda developed this need to feel seen, to, to, to feel like I belong, and also I, I, I constantly overcompensate and work extra hard just to prove that I'm worthy. Now, I didn't understand any of that before I wrote this book. And having gone on this journey, it made me look at my early years through a different lens. And I'll tell you this, this incredible story. Uh, right after the Oscars, I received an invitation from Cate Blanchett to attend an event in Geneva, Switzerland. It was for the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees. And after that event, I was asked if I was interested to visit the archives, and I said yes right away. And when I went in, they, they led me to the back of the room, there was... where there was a table. There were documents there. There was a microfiche reader. And in those documents, I was able to see The memos and the faxes, the correspondence between UNHCR and the Hong Kong government urging the Hong Kong government to allow all the passengers on Hui Feng, which was the boat that I was on, over 3,300 passengers on that boat. We arrive on the shore of Hong Kong, but we're not allowed to, to, to, to come on, on board. And the most important thing that I came upon was the passenger log, and it had every single names of our family, my father, all my siblings, and myself. And it was in that moment that I realized what it took for us to be here, to have this chance at all. And now I look back and I f- I, I understand the efforts and the journey that we went on was nothing short of miraculous.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- KQKe Huy Quan
We made it. We survived. It was unbelievable. Hundreds of thousands of people were trying to flee Vietnam at that time, and almost half of those people never made it and ended up at the bottom of the South China Sea. We were the lucky ones. So writing this book, it made me realize that, wow, it, it, what a journey we had, and I should be proud of it. I should win... I should be proud of the sacrifice that, that, that my parents made. And now that stigma, that shame is no longer there, and I, and I wear that label proudly. Yes, I tell people, "Yes, I used to be a refugee." So that discovery was unbelievable, and I, and I, and, and that was one of the big, uh, joy that I got out of, uh, out of writing this book.
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, Ke, that, that's just, that's beautiful. I got chills listening to you tell that story.
- KQKe Huy Quan
Thank you.
- 32:21 – 37:44
Making sense of the life arc: joy, gratitude, and the fame–work association
- AGAdam Grant
Chills. What a beautiful way to rethink and reframe the stigma as a source of pride. You know, it, it, it relates to something, uh, that I was thinking about coming into this conversation, which is we have an amazing PhD student, Stephanie, who's a huge fan of your work, and I was talking to her about what I should ask you. And she pointed out that the arc of your story, depending on where you stop it, could look very different. You know, you, you could basically tell the story from the experience of being in, in jail and then trying to get on the boat and finally making it here, and then this incredible rise. Or you could tell it from the incredible rise to the fall and to being lost and confused. Or you could tell it with the full arc that we have now to present, where you actually r- get that, that upswing of redemption. And I have, I have a question I think that, that comes out of that observation, which is there's some research by a psychologist, Dan McAdams, who looks at the shape of people's life stories. And he finds that when people have, uh, what he calls a contamination narrative, where things were good and then they weren't, like happened to you as a teenager and in your 20s, they often do end up less satisfied with their lives, feeling depression, feeling regret. What works much better is to find the redemption arc. And in fact, having sort of gone down and then up again seems to predict more happiness than just having a pleasant, easy life. What's striking to me is that when you talk about sort of where you came from, I think it would be easy to naively assume, well, you, you've been in jail. You've been, you've been, you know, fighting for your life to get to America. Just not, you know, not finding work as an actor, like, no problem, right? That should be easy. But having known what success feels like and then having fallen after rising, that almost makes it worse. And I, I'd just love to hear you reflect on that a little bit, the kind of the, the shape of, of what feels like contamination and then redemption and, and what that was like and how you see it now. Does that make sense?
- KQKe Huy Quan
Oh, it... Yeah, I, I, I love that question.
- AGAdam Grant
Sorry, that was such a rambling question.
- KQKe Huy Quan
No. I love this question, and I love the way it is framed because it's absolutely true. If you look at my story, it depends on where you end it. And you can end tragically, or you can have a happy ending. You know, for example, y- you said it beautifully. I mean, you know, a lot of times I think for people who don't know me, I think it's fair to say they kinda think of me as the guy jumping up and down at award shows with this incredibly joyful energy. And for people who do know some of my story, they understand, but they don't have the full picture. And that's why I wanted to write this book. I wanted people to know where that joy came from, and it came from many different places, you know? The reason why I'm so joyful and I always see, I always approach things with such a huge sense of gratitude is because of the hardship that I went through.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- KQKe Huy Quan
It was not easy to get here. But, and I think you can help me with this too. I've been able to have a little time to reflect after I finished this book, and I realize that I associate fame with work, meaning that if I'm famous, I'll keep working, and if I keep working, I'll be famous. The most offer I got was right after when "E.A.O" came out when I won the Oscar. I have never had more filmmakers and producers reaching out, wanting to meet, wanting to offer me a job, wanting to develop stuff with me in mind, and it was an incredible feeling. And I understand that that is not healthy to associate work with fame. You know?
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- KQKe Huy Quan
I, I understand that I'm still a work in progress, and I, I recognize that, and I try not to do that. But I can't help but, you know, everything that's happened in my life. What do you think, Adam?
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, you've come to the right office hours. This is-
- KQKe Huy Quan
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
This is, this is a great question for an organizational psychologist. I, I don't know if I can help you or anyone with this, Ke, but I, I'll give you my perspective on it.
- KQKe Huy Quan
Okay.
- AGAdam Grant
Which is I think that you, you actually learned something early on that's true, but maybe I would frame it a little differently, which is visibility creates opportunity. You don't have to be famous, but if you're known in your field, that means people think of you more often. You're top of mind, right? They're, they're more likely to imagine a role for you. And so I don't, I don't think that association was wrong. I think, though, that it's limited because it's only one path. I think that recognition is, is kind of a shortcut to opportunity, but relationships are what convert the opportunity into a job, right? Into a role, into a career. And I think, you know, if, if I were, if I were talking with 18-year-old Ke, one of the first things I would say is, "Okay, like your, your star is, you know, is not as prominent as it was six years ago, but you know Steven Spielberg. You know George Lucas. You know Harrison Ford. Those relationships matter. Those people respect your acting skills. They admire your work ethic. They feel a connection to you because you're part of their success. And in those moments when the recognition isn't there, what are the relationships that you can rely on that will open doors for you, that will give you a chance?" What do you, what do you make of that?
- 37:44 – 42:26
Asking for help: Spielberg’s unseen support and the psychology of ‘bothering’
- KQKe Huy Quan
No, it's true, but I also-- I, I'm, I'm one of those people where, like, the last thing I wanna do is to bother people. If I need help, uh, the last thing I wanna do is to, is to go and bother something, s- somebody about it. But you're right, relationships matter, and I have some really cool and wonderful relationship, and I treasure them. And also, I'm very grateful for the, you know, for, for the people who have made a big difference in my life. Uh, and because they've already done so much f- I'll give you an example. Steven Spielberg, who gave me not one but two incredible opportunities. When I decided to go to film school, my friends and family says, "You need to call Steven. You need to ask him to write that letter of recommendation for you." And I go, "Come on, no. I don't wanna bother him. The last thing he wants to, to hear is him ask-- me asking him for more stuff." And I didn't. I, I di- I didn't ask him. And what was so amazing was that after I graduated from USC, I went to visit Steven on, on, on a movie set. He was shooting "Minority Report" at that time, and I was shooting on the same lot, just a few sta- soundstages, uh, down, uh, further down. And when I found out he was there, during my lunch break, I went to visit him. And, uh, and this was maybe after, gosh, like 10, 15 years I haven't seen him. The last time he saw me, I was a little kid, and I was so nervous that he wouldn't recognize me. Uh, and the minute he saw me, he stood up, opened his arms, gave me a big hug, and asked me, "Ke, what are you doing?" You know, "How are you?" And I said, "I'm doing great. Uh, I just graduated from college, and now I'm working behind the camera." And he says, "I know." And I said, "W- huh? How do you, how do you know I graduated from college?" He said, "Well, when you applied for film school, they asked me if I should let you in, and I said yes." [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs] So he was there as a reference, and you didn't have to ask.
- KQKe Huy Quan
He was, he was there, he was there the whole time. He was always looking out for me, and I, I cannot be more appreciative. And that's why, like, how can I go and ask him for more stuff when this man's already done so much? Uh, so that's-
- AGAdam Grant
Oh
- KQKe Huy Quan
... so that's how I feel when, like, when I, like, asking people.
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, Ke, all right. I'm gonna, I'm gonna challenge you a little bit on this one.
- KQKe Huy Quan
Okay.
- AGAdam Grant
Because I have spent a lot of my career studying this, this very dynamic and dilemma, and-
- KQKe Huy Quan
Okay
- AGAdam Grant
... I think you're doing yourself a disservice. So I understand you're a giver. You don't wanna be a taker. But it's so interesting that you frame it to me, to me as bothering people and, and you say, "I don't wanna bother people." Let me ask you something. When somebody comes to you and says, "Ke, I would love your advice," or, you know, "Would you be willing to make an introduction for me?" How do you feel?
- KQKe Huy Quan
I feel good because I can help people, and if people ask me for help, I feel worthy.
- AGAdam Grant
Don't you think everyone wants to feel that?
- KQKe Huy Quan
Yes.
- AGAdam Grant
So how could you deprive other people of that feeling-
- KQKe Huy Quan
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
... by not asking them for help and advice?
- KQKe Huy Quan
That's so jerk, Adam. [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
What a jerk. Don't be, don't be an asshole.
- KQKe Huy Quan
So, so selfish, right? Selfish. So, what an asshole. [laughs] Adam, that is so great. That is so great.
- AGAdam Grant
No, look, not, not everyone is gonna feel it all the time, right? There, there are times when it is a bother or it, it is a burden because you ask the wrong person for the wrong thing at the wrong time. But-
- KQKe Huy Quan
Right
- AGAdam Grant
... knowing what kind of person you are, um, and knowing that you, you exude kindness, you don't just give speeches on it, you have built so much goodwill with the people in your life. Um, you're clearly beloved and adored, and [chuckles] there, there's no, there's nothing that people enjoy more than helping somebody that they feel so good about. And so I, I do think that you're-- [laughs] you, you are failing to give them the joy of being givers too by never asking.
- KQKe Huy Quan
That's wonderful. I, I, again, like I said, I'm, I'm definitely a, a work in progress, and I think I'm learning. It's interesting. You know, I'm 50 s- I'm 55 years old, and I'm still learning to, to give myself permission to be happy, to be-- to feel worthy. You know, one of the thing that I, that I learned from my wife, Eko, writing this book is that one of the many reasons why I'm so in love with her is that she makes me feel like just being myself, I'm enough. She never think I was insufficient when I wasn't working. But, you know, I'm growing, and, and that's what I love. But I love what you just said, Adam, and I will, I will remember that the next time I, I need something from somebody.
- AGAdam Grant
Take it, take it to heart. I think it's, it's always easier to ask for advice than help. You know, help, help requires the other person to do something. Advice is just-
- KQKe Huy Quan
Mm
- AGAdam Grant
... a conversation. Who wouldn't be happy to have a chat with you?
- KQKe Huy Quan
[laughs]
- 42:26 – 46:02
Kindness, karma, and closing lightning round
- AGAdam Grant
I mean, you're, you're just, you're just so charming, and you bring so much joy into other people's lives. I, I can't imagine anyone feeling anything but, but delighted to hear from you. So tell me if I'm wrong, but I, I wanted to ask you, related to this, you know, ev- everybody talks about how kind you are, and it's just, it's, it's in your DNA. It's so clear. I know Hollywood can be pretty cutthroat. What are your reflections on maintaining your kindness and your humility in an industry that often seems to reward people who are selfish and arrogant and brash?
- KQKe Huy Quan
Oh, that's a... I, I love this question. And it's not just in our industry. I think I always approach people with kindness first. I always try to be polite. I always try to be kind. And sometimes it's not appreciated, you know? But I can't, I can't allow myself to be any, any other way because I, I would just hate myself. You know, whether Hollywood awards people who are assholes, that's them. I don't wanna be that. I just wanna be, I just wanna be who I am. I just wanna, I just wanna treat people the way I wanted to be treated. And like I s- like my wife said, I believe in karma and, um, if you spread goodness, goodness will come around. That's how I think.
- AGAdam Grant
Okay. You ready for a lightning round?
- KQKe Huy Quan
Yes. Oh, whoa, we're doing lightning round already. Wow, this went by fast. Okay. Yes.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs] Yeah. I have some rapid-fire questions, whenever you're ready. Uh, first of all, what do you think is the worst career advice you've ever gotten?
- KQKe Huy Quan
Do it for the money.
- AGAdam Grant
Best advice?
- KQKe Huy Quan
Do it for the money. Do it for the... Uh, the best advice is, uh, don't be afraid to say no, and that's very hard for me, but I'm learning.
- AGAdam Grant
Recovering people-pleasers unite.
- KQKe Huy Quan
Yes, I'm a people-pleaser, uh, but I think that's a great advice.
- AGAdam Grant
Yep, I think so too. Uh, you get to invite a group of your favorite people in Hollywood to dinner, alive or dead. Who are you inviting?
- KQKe Huy Quan
I gotta tell you, I love great filmmakers. I, I love it when I get to work with someone who is really smart, have a clear vision. Uh, so if I were to have a dinner, I would love to invite Christopher Nolan, Martin Scorsese, Steven Spielberg, James Cameron, one of my favorite, Akira Kurosawa, who's no longer here, but as you said, dead or alive. Of course, I would not be here even talking to you if it weren't for the Daniel, so I gotta invite them. I would put them all around a table. I would put myself right in the center, but I would not speak. I would not talk. I would just, I just wanna be a fly on the wall and just hear them talk about movies.
- AGAdam Grant
That sounds like so much fun.
- KQKe Huy Quan
I would love that.
- AGAdam Grant
I'm so grateful, Ke, that you joined us today and that you were willing to rethink your, your path so many times. I think it's, it's an inspiration to all of us, and I think you role model the kind of resilience that we're all, we're all [laughs] struggling to build at the moment. So, uh, I think that's so important, and this has been such a joy for me.
- KQKe Huy Quan
I love this chat. Uh, you know, I, I never, I never went to therapy. This is the... I do know that this is the ther- therapy that I needed. Uh, uh, it's, it's great. So I, I really had fun talk, chatting with you, Adam. Thank you.
- AGAdam Grant
Same. I'm not even that kind of psychologist. [laughs] [upbeat music]
Episode duration: 46:02
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