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Re:Thinking with Adam GrantRe:Thinking with Adam Grant

The difference between joy and relief with Allison Sweet Grant | ReThinking

If you or a loved one has suffered from severe illness, you know that recovery isn’t always as joyful as it sounds. In this episode, Adam’s wife Allison Sweet Grant is back to talk about her new memoir “Lump,” a collection of poetry and prose about her experience with breast cancer. Allison and Adam reflect on their experience as a family dealing with a difficult diagnosis in the middle of the COVID pandemic, and Allison shares her complicated relationship with being called a “survivor.” They discuss how many patients downplay their pain to appease their providers, explain why many patients feel more relief than joy during recovery, and address how we can provide better support to our loved ones. They also talk about Allison’s synesthesia, revisit their beloved driving debate (is the lead or following car responsible for staying together on a multi-car trip?) and open several new ones (is Seinfeld better than Friends, and is true crime scarier than fiction?). Follow our podcasts! ReThinking with Adam Grant: https://link.mgln.ai/kdYcyx The TED Podcasts is a collection of podcasts for the curious. The TED Podcasts videos may be used for non-commercial purposes under a Creative Commons License, Attribution–Non Commercial–No Derivatives (or the CC BY – NC – ND 4.0 International) and in accordance with our TED Talks Usage Policy (https://www.ted.com/about/our-organiz...). For more information on using TED for commercial purposes (e.g. employee learning, in a film or online course), please submit a Media Request at https://media-requests.ted.com.

Allison Sweet GrantguestAdam Granthost
Sep 10, 202656mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 3:44

    From “lump” as a harmless word to a cancer diagnosis—and writing as processing

    1. AG

      When the brain fog is at its worse, it feels to me like being a painter and not being able to direct your paintbrush in the exact way that you want it to. And so everything is sort of like drippy or melty or just, you know, more abstract. That's kind of what it felt like to me. Everything was monotone, and I couldn't find the colors, even though I was looking for them. [upbeat music]

    2. AG

      Allison, welcome back to ReThinking.

    3. AG

      Thank you. Thank you for having me. Having me.

    4. AG

      [laughs] What, what, was that a word?

    5. AG

      I don't know.

    6. AG

      Tell me something that you've rethought lately.

    7. AG

      I mean, I guess the easiest answer is to say coming on your podcast, um, because I do worry, I don't wanna be seen as, like, a podcast nepo baby. [laughs]

    8. AG

      [laughs] You just coined a new term.

    9. AG

      Yeah.

    10. AG

      There's no such thing in this context.

    11. AG

      Well, I'm do- I'm here, I'm doing it, so the-

    12. AG

      I'm so glad you came

    13. AG

      ... I do rethink it. Yeah.

    14. AG

      You are officially here to talk about your new book, Lump: A Memoir in Ineloquent Reflections.

    15. AG

      Indeed.

    16. AG

      Which I loved, and I didn't just love it because I love you.

    17. AG

      You say that a lot.

    18. AG

      Well, it's true though. It's true a lot.

    19. AG

      [laughs]

    20. AG

      I mean, I think this is a writer's dream, that the best version of you shows up on the page.

    21. AG

      I would agree.

    22. AG

      All the rough drafts that you discard and don't publish, people who know you see in real life.

    23. AG

      So your day-to-day personality is a rough draft, in a way?

    24. AG

      Yes.

    25. AG

      Yeah.

    26. AG

      Exactly, which is why so many people are disappointed when they meet their heroes.

    27. AG

      Oh, interesting.

    28. AG

      'Cause they saw, they saw the peak snapshot-

    29. AG

      Right

    30. AG

      ... and not the, the daily-

  2. 3:44 – 4:46

    Cancer care during COVID: isolation, solo appointments, and unexpected upsides

    1. AG

      Yeah. Okay, so initially it felt like early days of COVID, it was the worst time to get, uh, a diagnosis like that.

    2. AG

      Mm-hmm.

    3. AG

      You had to go to every appointment alone.

    4. AG

      Mm-hmm.

    5. AG

      I think on the other hand, we realized over time that in some ways it was the best moment if you're gonna get a cancer diagnosis to get it, because you weren't out in public.

    6. AG

      It was an interesting time to get sick, because you're right. In some ways it was beneficial. I didn't have to worry about the way I presented myself to the world, because nobody was presenting themselves to the world. [laughs] We were all hiding, right?

    7. AG

      Yeah.

    8. AG

      But like you said, it was also terrifying, because you couldn't accompany me to anything. Anytime I did go into an office or hospital, it was like nothing I'd ever seen before. The halls were empty. There were no, you know, support groups. There were no people chatting in waiting rooms. There were no treatment rooms, you know, or things like that. Everything was incredibly isolated, and that made it really hard.

  3. 4:46 – 7:03

    “The Perfect Patient”: performing compliance and the power imbalance in medicine

    1. AG

      One of the things that you wrote about in Lump very powerfully is the pressure you felt in the hospital to, to actually please healthcare providers. Talk to me about that experience of, of feeling like you had to audition for the approval of, of healthcare providers.

    2. AG

      I mean, well, I have a piece in the book called The Perfect Patient, which is sort of a parody of a interaction between a patient and a physician, where the patient sort of sacrifices their own needs and wants in order to come across as pleasant and accommodating and, uh, compliant and friendly and all of those things. I think that people who find themselves in a position where they are not just going in for an annual physical or, like, a root canal, right, something pretty minor and ordinary, but people who find themselves in long-term care, that there's a lot of pressure to be the perfect patient and not to ask any questions, not to cause any inconveniences, and I think it's a shame, [laughs] you know? Because it's hard enough being a patient, and I- Having to deal with everything that's going on health-wise, but having this added layer of feeling like you have to, um, come across as easy to please your provider, it's just an unnecessary layer of stress.

    3. AG

      It's so backward too. Like, their job is to take care of you.

    4. AG

      Right.

    5. AG

      You shouldn't have to worry about their feelings.

    6. AG

      Right. That's something that you tell me all the time is, they're working for you. Make sure everything that you want is what, you know, happens in that appointment. But I think so often, like, the tables get flipped and, um, the patient feels like they're the one who has to put on a show for their provider.

    7. AG

      Why?

    8. AG

      I mean, I think a lot of it just comes from the assumption that a, that a physician is an authority figure, and feeling like there's a power imbalance, and feeling like it's, it's your job to meet that provider where they are, as opposed to what I think is completely the opposite, where it's the physician's job to meet the patient where they are.

  4. 7:03 – 9:56

    Gender, disbelief, and the double bind of being labeled “difficult”

    1. AG

      I've wondered if there's a gender difference here. We know that women face undue and extra pressure to appear warm and communal and polite, and men just don't face that same expectation, and so are probably more comfortable just asserting what their problem or their issue is.

    2. AG

      Mm-hmm.

    3. AG

      Do you think this is partially gendered?

    4. AG

      I do, but I mean, I can only speak f- for myself, but I do. I think women are, in healthcare are used to being, um, dismissed or, I don't know if I'd go so far as to say belittled, but, um, gaslit, to use a very popular term right now. And yeah, to, i- in order to avoid that happening, I think a lot of women will walk into an appointment and not be as honest as or forthcoming as possible because they're afraid of the consequences.

    5. AG

      You have a New York Times piece about this. The, the evidence is clear that women are less likely to be believed when they report pain.

    6. AG

      Mm-hmm.

    7. AG

      Right? That a man who says, "Ow"-

    8. AG

      Do you mean ouch?

    9. AG

      Yes. I mean, can I say ow?

    10. AG

      [laughs]

    11. AG

      Is it ouch?

    12. AG

      I think it's ouch.

    13. AG

      I didn't, I didn't ... Have I, have I been mis- ex- mis- onomatopoeia-ing-

    14. AG

      Maybe

    15. AG

      ... all my life?

    16. AG

      Maybe.

    17. AG

      No, but I, I do think this, this tracks with, with gender stereotypes, right? People assume that men are strong and tough, and so if a guy says, "Ouch," people take that really seriously, whereas when a woman does it, she's seen as hysterical or emotional or as weak in some way, which is grossly unfair.

    18. AG

      It's an experience that I had frequently, not only with my cancer care, but just in general. And so if you feel dismissed as a woman just, like, at your routine physical, imagine feeling that way when you're receiving treatment for cancer, and wanting to do everything within your power to make sure that you get the right care. And if you have to sacrifice a little bit of yourself in order to do that, a lot of women will, will do that, and I think that's sad and unfortunate, but understandable, and I think that's why it happens.

    19. AG

      Yeah. In your article, one of the things you highlight is that the, the stakes are, are much higher than I realized too, that when patients feel pressure to minimize their symptoms or when they try not to be labeled as difficult, they actually end up getting worse care.

    20. AG

      Mm-hmm. You actually told me, when you say, when you preface it with, "I'm not trying to be difficult, but," that already, like, plants the seed that there's something difficult coming, and so you're kind of setting yourself up for a worse experience.

    21. AG

      Yeah, yeah, that kind of disclaimer can backfire. And so it feels like a, a double bind in a way. Like, there's this, this unfair dilemma of on the one hand, if you get labeled as difficult, then you're just gonna get less care. You might not get care at all.

    22. AG

      Right.

    23. AG

      If you're afraid of being labeled as difficult, if you're afraid of the stigma of being seen as a problem patient, then you don't actually get your needs addressed and you don't get good care either.

    24. AG

      Mm-hmm.

  5. 9:56 – 11:19

    What providers can do: prompts that create psychological safety

    1. AG

      I think it's, you know, it's tempting to say, well, what, what can a patient do? But I think the onus is really on the provider.

    2. AG

      Mm-hmm.

    3. AG

      What do you think healthcare professionals can do to, to make this easier on patients?

    4. AG

      I mean, it seems kind of silly and maybe counterintuitive, but I think a provider saying something like, "What is it that you want to tell me that you're afraid to tell me?" Or, "What is it that you want to tell me that you think will make you look crazy?" Or something along those lines might sort of break that wall and help patients feel more comfortable.

    5. AG

      I think that is such a good idea. I think it's a, it's actually a really simple but powerful way to create psychological safety.

    6. AG

      Mm-hmm.

    7. AG

      To say, "Hey, I know there might be something that to you feels like it might be hard to talk about."

    8. AG

      Mm-hmm.

    9. AG

      "And everything is discussable here."

    10. AG

      Right.

    11. AG

      "I'm here to take care of you, and I can only do that if I know what's really on your mind."

    12. AG

      Right. Or even going so far as to say, um, something like, "What would you say to me if there was no judgment?" You know, or, "If I wasn't writing it down?" Or, you know, something like along those lines.

    13. AG

      I think that's such a great idea. It's, it's actually very similar to something that NASA started doing after a, a deadly accident. It's not that easy to say to a rocket scientist, "I think you might be wrong."

    14. AG

      Mm-hmm.

    15. AG

      And so they created a norm that at the end of important decision meetings, they would ask, "Does anyone have any information that might be relevant but hasn't been shared yet?"

    16. AG

      Mm-hmm.

    17. AG

      To try to open that door. I think you're onto something here.

    18. AG

      [laughs]

  6. 11:19 – 17:06

    Challenging cancer “battle” language: journeys, survivors, and moral luck

    1. AG

      All right. Let's, let's, uh, let's talk about some other topics. There, there's so many parts of Lump that I love. Um, there's so many poems and essays that, like, I just, I can't stop thinking about that it's hard to pick. But one of the themes that really jumped out at me is you are, I think, appropriately critical of the way that we tend to glorify the fight against cancer. I'm gonna read you your words.

    2. AG

      Um-

    3. AG

      Are you ready?

    4. AG

      Yep.

    5. AG

      Okay. You wrote, "Don't call me a survivor. I didn't do anything to earn the title that the people who didn't, didn't."

    6. AG

      I did write that.

    7. AG

      [laughs] Tell me about it.

    8. AG

      I mean, it's very easy, I think, for- ... people call having cancer like a journey, and you hear it all the time. It's used, in my opinion, as a way for people who don't have cancer to feel better about people who do have cancer and what they're going through. But for the person who's going through it, for me anyway, it felt kind of patronizing. This isn't a journey. This sucks, and I'm just doing the best that I can, and I don't know which way it's gonna go. Nobody knows which way it's gonna go. With a journey, you hope for a destination, and although you hope for one with cancer too, it's, it's not as black and white.

    9. AG

      Yeah.

    10. AG

      And so that word in particular, like, I don't know very many cancer patients who do like it.

    11. AG

      Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you, you really made me rethink that because I, I think coming in, you know, thankfully not had a lot of exposure to cancer.

    12. AG

      Yeah.

    13. AG

      I thought about the journey metaphor as a way to signal the diagnosis is not an endpoint, that, you know, people get fixated on this horrible news that could be a death sentence.

    14. AG

      Mm-hmm.

    15. AG

      And to say it's a journey, it, it gives you permission, I thought, to stretch it out into the future, to realize that you might be in a valley, but you may climb out of it, right? There, there's a, there's a road ahead of you, I think is what journey signaled to me.

    16. AG

      Mm-hmm.

    17. AG

      And I never thought about it the way that you describe it of, no, [laughs] like a journey is going somewhere really great, and I don't know where this trip is gonna take me.

    18. AG

      Mm-hmm.

    19. AG

      But I didn't sign up for it.

    20. AG

      Yeah. No, I completely agree. Yes, there is a road, right? And, um, there are hills and valleys for sure, but it's not a road that anybody would choose to be on.

    21. AG

      No, it's more like an odyssey, I guess, in that way, right?

    22. AG

      Um, I don't know. Like an odyssey, like all of life is a journey, right? Or an odyssey. There's a start point and an end point, right? And just I, I, I think in cancer in particular, it's used to make it look prettier, to make cancer look prettier.

    23. AG

      Yeah, yeah.

    24. AG

      You know? And-

    25. AG

      It becomes a saga instead of a struggle.

    26. AG

      Oh, m- that's great. Yeah.

    27. AG

      Yeah, you're right. It's, it's almost like it's airbrushed.

    28. AG

      Mm-hmm.

    29. AG

      You know, I think the, the other point that's so salient from the way that you wrote about calling someone a survivor, I'd also had never considered that before, that the person who, quote-unquote, "wins the battle against cancer" probably did not do anything different from the person who, quote-unquote, "lost the battle against cancer."

    30. AG

      Yeah.

  7. 17:06 – 19:08

    Reminders that stick: diagnosis on an anniversary and the Hamilton mistake

    1. AG

      I think the reminders point is one that I also did not fully appreciate before. I think about two markers that are just unavoidable, one of which is Hamilton and the other of which is our anniversary.

    2. AG

      For us, yeah.

    3. AG

      Yeah, for us.

    4. AG

      Yeah.

    5. AG

      And I thought you wrote about both of those markers so poignantly in Lump.

    6. AG

      Well, I mean, it started with our anniversary, so we might as well kind of start there.

    7. AG

      Yeah.

    8. AG

      So our an- our, the day that I got diagnosed was our wedding anniversary, so that was... It was actually fine because since it was COVID, we weren't doing anything [laughs] special. I think we were throwing socks into a hamper t- for the kids, like, to play soccer inside or something like that, remember?

    9. AG

      Yeah.

    10. AG

      When, when the PE class was like-

    11. AG

      Sure

    12. AG

      ... "Here are all these activities you can do to stay active at home." But yeah, f- it was an interesting coincidence, and it's definitely now easy to keep track of both of those-

    13. AG

      [laughs] You never forgot our anniversary after that

    14. AG

      ... things. Yeah. And then with Hamilton, that was sort of a mistake that we both made-

    15. AG

      Yeah

    16. AG

      ... um, which was After we talked about the diagnosis with our children, um, and sat them down and listened to their questions and answered their questions and kind of went through the whole plan, then we decided to sit down and watch Hamilton, um, which we thought would be a great distraction. But because Hamilton turned out to be the huge success that it was, and everybody was talking about it all the time, it was just a reminder, um, for the kids of that first conversation.

    17. AG

      I think where it's landed is I think two of our kids love Hamilton, and one still, [laughs] when a Hamilton song gets played, it's a little bit distressing.

    18. AG

      Yeah. Or even at school, they ended up watching parts of Hamilton in history class or whatever, and she had articulated that it was difficult, yeah.

    19. AG

      Yeah. So I think that's a lesson. [laughs] Don't take something that's culturally ubiquitous, that people have positive associations with, and link it to a bad memory.

    20. AG

      Yeah.

  8. 19:08 – 22:39

    “Sheila” and the indignities of bureaucracy: forms, iPads, and dehumanization

    1. AG

      Noted. Uh, did not get that advice in advance. Okay, something else we have to talk about from Lump is Sheila.

    2. AG

      Okay.

    3. AG

      I try to see the good in most people. Having a hard time with Sheila.

    4. AG

      Yeah, it's interesting that you're, like, latching onto this-

    5. AG

      [laughs]

    6. AG

      ... because Sheila's only mentioned once in Lump.

    7. AG

      I know, but she's ... I feel like she's my nemesis.

    8. AG

      Yeah. Sheila sort of represents all of the sort of nameless, bureaucratic, like, inconveniences that come with being in the hospital, being a cancer patient, um, having to, like, jump through all these ridiculous hoops, paperwork, you know, all of that stuff. [laughs]

    9. AG

      Yes, Sheila. I can fill out your stupid form that I've already completed nine times.

    10. AG

      Yeah.

    11. AG

      Yeah, you're right. Sheila was sort of the [laughs] the, the face of all of the preventable-

    12. AG

      Yeah

    13. AG

      ... nuisances. It feels like something controllable in the midst of something that wasn't. It seems like the least a hospital could do is try to minimize the bureaucratic indignities and the little slights that make you feel dehumanized during a process that's robbing you of your humanity.

    14. AG

      Yeah. But I think we were lucky, actually, you and I, in that I think we got to sidestep some of that, o- one, because of COVID, you know. But also, I kind of refused to do a lot of it, too. Like, I would be given an iPad at an appointment and said... A- a- and the person, Sheila, right, would say, "Your doctor wants you to fill this out," you know? And I would just casually forget to fill it out.

    15. AG

      [laughs]

    16. AG

      And nobody would say anything, so, like, why am I, why am I doing it anyway? If I can f- forget to do something that isn't necessary to begin with, I'm gonna do that every time, so.

    17. AG

      Yeah.

    18. AG

      The qu- text message questionnaires that you're supposed to fill out, yeah.

    19. AG

      Yeah. I remember thinking at some point, h- okay, you were, you were going through chemo, and I'm watching this, thinking, "You're poisoning my wife in order to try to heal her, and you're also ... You're just robbing her of her dignity in the kinds of questions that are asked on these forms." I thought you got great revenge with the medical form that you wrote about in Lump.

    20. AG

      Well, thank you. I don't know, I'm just trying to make the best out [laughs] of an uncomfortable situation, so. I'm pretty sure it was a questionnaire about anxiety, which is great that providers are asking about that, because obviously cancer is a very anxiety-producing event. But some of the questions were just kind of outlandish, and become so rote, like, after you're asked them five, 10, 15 times. Um, and so I, I just like to play on that a little bit. I mean, I remember being asked by medical assistants who were, like, doing your vitals, you know, "Have you been experiencing any depression?" Well, no. I mean, of course not. I've only been diagnosed with cancer. I'm only-

    21. AG

      [laughs]

    22. AG

      ... I'm only sitting here in a chemo suite. Like, no. [laughs] Like, that would be so odd. Why would I-

    23. AG

      [laughs]

    24. AG

      ... be depressed or anxious at all? Like, there's gotta be a better way to monitor, because of course patients need mental health support when they're going through cancer. But, like, to say, like, "Are you feeling down?" Like, that's just such a dumb thing to ask. I... Yes, yes.

    25. AG

      Yes, obviously. It would almost be a mental health concern if you weren't.

    26. AG

      Right. If you were excited to be there. [laughs]

    27. AG

      Yeah. [laughs] Actually, I'm feeling better than usual.

    28. AG

      [laughs]

  9. 22:39 – 23:43

    Focused anxiety vs. everyday anxiety: “Let’s remember this is not cancer”

    1. AG

      I think that, that speaks to something that we've, we've talked about a lot, which is in some ways, your anxiety, your everyday anxiety was lower while you were going through cancer treatment than I think before and after also.

    2. AG

      Yeah, because it's focused. Like, you have one thing to worry about, and everything else, right, is not cancer. And so yeah, your anxiety, or my anxiety anyway, it ch- it, it changes and it shifts and it focuses. And of course now, right, that I'm doing better, it's much easier to be anxious about all of the little things now that cancer is not, like, staring you right in the face anymore.

    3. AG

      How many times a week do I say some version of, "Let's, let's remember this is not cancer?"

    4. AG

      Yeah, absolutely.

    5. AG

      Too m-

    6. AG

      And it works. It works.

    7. AG

      Too many, or is it helpful?

    8. AG

      No, it's helpful, for sure.

    9. AG

      Really?

    10. AG

      Because you lose sight, yeah. I mean, if you have the luxury of losing sight that cancer is your biggest problem, then you're a pretty lucky person with cancer, you know? So it, it is helpful for me.

    11. AG

      Okay, good, then I'm gonna keep doing it until you-

    12. AG

      Okay

    13. AG

      ... tell me to stop.

    14. AG

      [laughs]

  10. 23:43 – 28:56

    Chemo brain fog: the invisible cost, relationship friction, and writing as control

    1. AG

      On the chemo subject, one of the other things that you wrote about in Lump that I thought was, was profound was the experience of, of having the intelligence to notice that you were losing some of your intelligence.

    2. AG

      Yeah. I mean, brain fog is a pretty typical side effect of chemotherapy, and it's something that I experienced pretty quickly, I would say, and something that I feel has stayed with me. It's incredibly frustrating to- Be able to sense when your senses [laughs] aren't working properly, yeah, and when your, when your mind isn't working properly. And it's, for me, been one of the hardest side effects of this entire experience is knowing what I want to say, but not being able to say it, um, not being able to articulate my thoughts and feelings, feeling like there's a disconnect between my brain and my mouth. It's a, a, it's a horrible way to live. Yeah.

    3. AG

      Yeah. I, I mean, I think my instinct was always to tell you it's not as bad as you think it is.

    4. AG

      Right.

    5. AG

      You might feel like you're 7% off, but I see the 93%.

    6. AG

      Right.

    7. AG

      And most of the time, in most of the situations, I can't even tell, and if I can't tell, there's no way anybody else is noticing. But I think that felt to you like I was minimizing the symptoms.

    8. AG

      It did feel that way because you might, I might have looked to you like I was 7% off, but to me, maybe I was 50% off, and I couldn't even convey that to you because you kept saying, "No, you're making a big deal out, it's nothing. I can't see it." And I'm trying to explain to you that even though you don't see it, I c- I see it. I feel it.

    9. AG

      You feel it. Well, I'm, I'm sorry that I didn't, that I didn't understand that sooner.

    10. AG

      You don't have to apologize. [laughs]

    11. AG

      No, I mean, I, I feel bad about that. I, you know, it's part of my pattern of wanting to help, and sometimes being too quick to rush into a solution as opposed to really making sure I understand the problem.

    12. AG

      Right.

    13. AG

      I would react to that when you were worried that other people were judging you as stupid, when they didn't even know that you were being treated for cancer or that you had brain fro- [laughs] brain frog, or that you had brain fog, which is different, right? So I think what I was really struggling with was empathizing with or showing compassion for your internal struggle, while also reassuring you that you didn't sound like an idiot, and that other people couldn't see most of what was going on internally. And so if you were gonna worry about something, it's the internal experience, not the external judgment and shame and embarrassment that, that was the concern. Does that make sense?

    14. AG

      It's not as reassuring as you would like it to be-

    15. AG

      Yeah

    16. AG

      ... because I'm still experiencing the struggle. And so even if I get the right answer-

    17. AG

      Yeah

    18. AG

      ... even if somebody else doesn't notice, I'm still using twice as much energy-

    19. AG

      Right

    20. AG

      ... for the same output.

    21. AG

      Yeah.

    22. AG

      Yeah.

    23. AG

      Yeah, that makes sense. And I think that was one of the places where writing proved to be extremely helpful.

    24. AG

      Absolutely.

    25. AG

      'Cause there's no clock ticking there.

    26. AG

      Yeah.

    27. AG

      There's nobody observing.

    28. AG

      Right.

    29. AG

      You had unlimited time to express it the way you wanted to articulate it.

    30. AG

      Absolutely. It's one of the reasons I'm so anxious about promoting this book to begin with is because I know cognitively I don't feel the same that I used to, and I am worried about sounding stupid or not being able to come up with the exact right word. Like, recall is really hard for me. When I'm writing, I can take as much time as I want, I can revise as much as I want until I can communicate exactly what it is I wanna communicate, and that's why when you say, "Let's talk about the book," well, I wrote the book. I don't wanna talk about the book. It-

  11. 28:56 – 32:19

    Synesthesia, baby naming, and the idea of “bringing color back” through text

    1. AG

      So I actually, I think this speaks to something else you wrote, uh, about in the book that we discovered when we were starting to think about baby naming, which is you have synesthesia.

    2. AG

      Uh, yeah. It's the pairing of different senses. So some people, like, taste shapes or hear-

    3. AG

      They hear color

    4. AG

      ... hear color or hear, uh... or there's tactile types of synesthesia as well where they, like, feel words.

    5. AG

      Feel sound.

    6. AG

      Yeah.

    7. AG

      Yeah

    8. AG

      Or sound or things like that. Exactly. Um, mine is the simplest [laughs] and most common form, which is color number synesthesia, where when I hear or see a number, in my mind's eye it is, um, associated with a particular color.

    9. AG

      Okay.

    10. AG

      Yeah.

    11. AG

      So when we first discovered this-

    12. AG

      Yes

    13. AG

      ... we were coming up with baby name ideas-

    14. AG

      Right

    15. AG

      ... when we were expecting our oldest.

    16. AG

      Right.

    17. AG

      And w- do you remember what name it was that you said was unacceptable?

    18. AG

      No, I mean, most of your names were unacceptable.

    19. AG

      [laughs] Yeah, some of yours were just as bad.

    20. AG

      Okay.

    21. AG

      Agatha.

    22. AG

      Ple- Jessica, please get rid of that. [laughs]

    23. AG

      Agatha? You're not gonna defend Agatha?

    24. AG

      No, I'm not. [laughs]

    25. AG

      You really wanted an Aggie.

    26. AG

      I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna defend-

    27. AG

      You're not giving me ammo?

    28. AG

      Yeah, exactly.

    29. AG

      Is that what's happening? Okay. Anyway, um, uh, I remember suggesting actually several names.

    30. AG

      Yeah.

  12. 32:19 – 36:40

    Joy vs. relief after “NED”: un-ruining life, lingering side effects, and mixed emotions

    1. AG

      Okay, a few, um, a few other things I wanna talk about. You wrote in Lump about waiting to un-ruin your life.

    2. AG

      Mm-hmm.

    3. AG

      I, I thought that was a, it was a, that was a striking way of capturing what you were trying to accomplish. Waiting to un-ruin your life, it feels different emotionally than waiting to heal. It made me think about the psychology of prevention and promotion focus, where promotion focus is seeking a positive outcome and prevention focus is avoiding a negative outcome.

    4. AG

      Mm-hmm.

    5. AG

      And I think you have always been [laughs] more prevention than promotion focused, and I think we, we saw this when you got the news that you were cancer-free.

    6. AG

      Mm-hmm.

    7. AG

      Uh, or NED, right? No evidence of disease.

    8. AG

      Yeah.

    9. AG

      Which I guess that's the term of art now.

    10. AG

      Yeah.

    11. AG

      Not remission.

    12. AG

      Right.

    13. AG

      Or not cured, for sure.

    14. AG

      Right.

    15. AG

      So I remember when, when we got the no evidence of disease information-

    16. AG

      Yeah

    17. AG

      ... I think if you'd been promotion focused, let's celebrate, that would've been joy, because it would've been the experience of the outcome that you were hoping for and wishing for.

    18. AG

      Mm-hmm.

    19. AG

      And I think you felt much more relief, which is what the research shows about prevention focus, that for you, that was not the presence of something good. It was now the absence of something bad.

    20. AG

      Well, I actually think that that ties to something that cancer patients experience a lot, which is that a lot of people think when you get that all clear, the hard part's over, right? But it is not over. There are side effects that, you know, patients experience every day that they don't talk about, you know? There's fear of remission that sits on their shoulders every day that they don't talk about. There are things that they've lost, you know, in that time period that they don't talk about, because it's really hard to express those things that you're still struggling with when people just want you to be like, "Yay," like, "You're all better," you know? And you are better, and you're grateful to be better, but that doesn't mean everything's over. It doesn't mean that struggle is over. It may never be over for some people, and it's still tough. It's still tough every day, but you can't talk about how it's tough every day.

    21. AG

      You did, you did write about how gratitude and grief are not adversaries.

    22. AG

      Yeah. Right, yes. I can absolutely be s- 100% grateful that I'm better, 100% grateful for my treatments, for everything that I went through, and also acknowledge that it sucks [scoffs] and it's hard, and I'm still dealing, still grappling with some of the leftover side effects of those treatments, you know? I'm not the same person, even though I don't have cancer right now, that I was before I ever had cancer. It's just not possible.

    23. AG

      Yeah.

    24. AG

      And, and that's a hard thing to explain to, um, an outsider.

    25. AG

      Yeah. I think it's hard to explain to somebody who has seen it up close even too.

    26. AG

      Yeah. It's hard, yeah, 'cause-

    27. AG

      It's hard for me to relate to sometimes-

    28. AG

      Right. Yeah

    29. AG

      ... because I see you look and sound like you're healed-

    30. AG

      Right

  13. 36:40 – 39:50

    The letters she never mentioned: fear, control, and leaving something behind

    1. AG

      Yeah. I think the thing that surprised me most in the whole book, there were, there were a lot of things in it that I didn't know. The thing that kind of blew my mind was the letters. I had no idea. Did you, did you know I didn't know?

    2. AG

      I don't think I thought about it. So when I, when I was first diagnosed and first told that I had to have chemotherapy, I felt very, very afraid of the chemo. I had sort of a irrational fear that I would not return home, that it was gonna be the chemo that would, that would kill me. And so before you took me that morning, I wrote letters to numerous people, um, particularly you and the kids, and I left them in a room of the house that, um, is not frequented so that you wouldn't find them [laughs] on that day. Yeah, and then I, when I came home, I moved them. I mean, I took them back. I did eventually give them to the kids. Did I not give you yours? Are you sure?

    3. AG

      Yeah.

    4. AG

      It was just something that I felt I needed to do because the diagnosis came so quickly, and then starting treatment, it, you know, it all happens, like, in a whirlwind. It was so fast. I, and I was so overwhelmed. I didn't know how to say all the things I wanted to say, and I wanted to leave something permanent-ish behind. And so that is, that's what I did.

    5. AG

      It broke my heart to know that, like, you had to sit there and write goodbye letters and that you were that afraid. Why didn't you tell me?

    6. AG

      I don't know. Because I didn't want anyone to know. I mean, that's why they were letters [laughs] that I put, sealed in an envelope and, you know, put away.

    7. AG

      So I wonder, it, it makes me think that at some level you write the letter just in case, but if it's just written, if it's never said, then you can still tell yourself, "This is just a what if. This is just a worst case scenario."

    8. AG

      Yeah.

    9. AG

      It's not real.

    10. AG

      Maybe. It just felt like something I had control over in a situation where there was none.

    11. AG

      Yeah.

    12. AG

      Yeah.

    13. AG

      Yeah. I think that's right. Well, I think the, I think the book is such a gift. I think it's a gift to anyone who's facing a cancer diagnosis or any life-threatening disease. I think it's a gift to anybody who's caring for or close to someone who's going through something difficult. I also think it's a gift to people who really love poetry, and who love prose, and who appreciate the art of the written word, and are, uh, sort of literary. But it's also, I think it's been a gift to our family, and I think it's, it's helped me understand you better and what you went through. It's helped me try to be a more supportive husband and partner, and I think it's one of the reasons why I, I think when you say, "I'll never write another book again," I say, "No, you have to write," because it's something that you share with the world. It's also something that you share with us.

    14. AG

      Well, thank you. I think a- I think, I hope all of those things are true, so.

  14. 39:50 – 56:39

    Lighter turns: true crime vs. horror, boundaries, sitcom debates, and a playful lightning round

    1. AG

      They are. On a lighter note.

    2. AG

      Okay.

    3. AG

      When we were talking about fear-

    4. AG

      Mm-hmm

    5. AG

      ... there is something so paradoxical to me about you and fear on our TV.

    6. AG

      On our TV?

    7. AG

      Yes.

    8. AG

      What do you mean?

    9. AG

      You won't watch horror movies because they freak you out.

    10. AG

      No. You're, so you're wrong.

    11. AG

      Well, hold on. Wait, let me finish. Before-

    12. AG

      Mm

    13. AG

      ... before, before you correct me, let me at least-

    14. AG

      Okay

    15. AG

      ... observe the paradox, and then you can-

    16. AG

      Okay

    17. AG

      ... you can course correct it. So you don't watch horror movies.

    18. AG

      You're ri- see, you're starting wrong. [laughs]

    19. AG

      [laughs] All right. For real, we'll come back to that. Okay. You were once watching, is it called American Horror Story?

    20. AG

      Yeah.

    21. AG

      You once told me to delete it from the DVR.

    22. AG

      Yeah.

    23. AG

      To purge it because it was giving you nightmares and you couldn't handle it. Okay?

    24. AG

      Yeah.

    25. AG

      You are very, very distressed by horror fiction, okay? By imaginary fears. But probably two nights a week, I come upstairs and you're watching Forensic Files-

    26. AG

      Yeah

    27. AG

      ... which is a terrifying show about actual serial killers and husband-wife murderers and-

    28. AG

      Husband-wife murderers? [laughs]

    29. AG

      ... husbands who kill their wives. It, it's, it's a show about the very worst of real humanity. It makes my blood curdle, and the thought that that's actually out there-

    30. AG

      Mm-hmm

Episode duration: 56:50

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