The NHL's first woman coach Jessica Campbell on breaking leadership barriers | ReThinking

Jessica Campbell 0:00 I never, ever dreamt of being first in a space where I've always been part of this game. I've been on fantastic all-girls teams. I've had men's coaches, I've had women's coaches. I was the only girl on an all-boys team. I've always saw myself belonging in hockey, but I never really understood what I was doing until I was standing behind an NHL bench in a space no woman had held before, and I felt this flood of emotion and pressure and weight of responsibility to do something good with it. [upbeat music]

Adam Grant 0:36 All right, Jess, so let me start by just asking you a little bit about your past as a hockey player. Like, tell me, tell me about your origin story. How did you fall in love with the ice?

Jessica Campbell 0:46 Mm. I probably have the most typical Canadian story of just small town kid, grew up in the Canadian prairies, and found myself falling in love with being on the ice. I was the youngest of four kids, and both my parents played hockey at a high level, so I was kind of born with skates on my feet. You know, I think about my childhood upbringing and being oftentimes the only girl on every boys' team that I played on. There was no all-girls teams at, at the time I played, which is a testament to how far the game has come, which is incredible. And so to end up in the position I am now, we can always connect dots backwards, right? But not forwards per- perhaps.

Adam Grant 1:27 Wow, that's amazing foreshadowing on several fronts, uh, that I wanna cover.

Jessica Campbell 1:32 [laughs]

Adam Grant 1:32 I'm curious, as a kid, what did it feel like to be the only girl on all-boys teams?

Jessica Campbell 1:36 You know, I, I wouldn't say it felt isolating, because at such a young age, when you're young and you're curious and you love something, you're falling in love with something, you just, you just feel those joys. And if I look back to my younger self, you would think, oh, she was alone. She was only one. She had to get dressed in janitor rooms, the cold storage lockers. She put her skates on by herself and walked into the room and dropped her bag, and then was part of the team. There were so many little, like, interesting things that were part of that experience, but I never ever felt lesser than or not equal to my teammates, or that I didn't belong in that room.

Adam Grant 2:15 I'm just curious about what it was like with opposing teams. I, I can-

Jessica Campbell 2:20 Mm

Adam Grant 2:20 ... I can imagine, you know, when, when I think about girls that I grew up with who played on boys' teams, I, I think I saw two dynamics consistently. One was they would be, you know, extra careful, like, not wanting to injure them.

Jessica Campbell 2:33 Mm-hmm.

Adam Grant 2:33 And the other is that, like, they would sometimes go harder and, like-

Jessica Campbell 2:37 Mm-hmm

Adam Grant 2:37 ... try to just knock them out. Um, both, both sad responses. Did, did you, did you experience both?

Jessica Campbell 2:44 Yeah, absolutely. I experienced both. I [laughs] experienced the allyship, the good teammates who loved having me on their line and wanted to give me the puck, and I had a, I had an innate, um, gift of skating where I was often, especially at a younger age with the boys, I was faster than them, which that, that always gave me an upper hand on how to compete with them, and they had to keep, keep up with me. Obviously, they got stronger, grew quicker, um, at a certain point, where then eventually I moved to the women's game, um, [laughs] just because of the physical differences that were potentially putting me at risk. But that was a parents' decision. I would've played in the boys' game as long as I could, but [laughs] that was my parents helping me move on. But y- you're, you're hitting it on the head in the sense that some, some boys, and even coaches, didn't, didn't believe that I belonged playing boys hockey. They're, you know, if I got hit and I fell down, injured or not, there was, "Well, that's why she should be playing with the boys." And they never said that to the boys when they hit and cried on the ice and their parents came and picked them up off the ice and, you know. I had a, I had a rule with my parents, it's like, unless you can't walk, get up. Get up and get to the bench, or unless you're throwing up sick, you're, you're gonna play through it. Um, so I was, I was co- you know, coached by my own parents to, to really push through some of, I think, what would've been potentially seen as on other teams bullying, like the comments that came at me from other teams. But I always saw it as if they're threatened by me, then it's d- I'm doing something better than them, and to just keep pushing and to leaning into that, and it, it definitely fueled me to want to do more, be more, and ch- strive for more.

Adam Grant 4:26 It's such a powerful reframe to say, "Hey, it's actually positive feedback if people are threatened by me."

Jessica Campbell 4:31 Yeah, I think it's, takes some deep reflection to feel it that way, but, you know, when I look at it now, that, that was something that drove me. Because I was different, because, you know, I was the only girl on the team, I c- sometimes had a target on my back. And you're right, some, sometimes I, I was treated differently and sometimes players were softer with me, and I didn't like that. That, that pissed me off for, sorry for the language, but that, that [laughs] made me very angry, like, "No, I'm here. I wanna battle. I wanna compete, and this is hockey, so don't treat me any, any differently."

Adam Grant 5:07 So you spent your whole childhood training for the situation you're in now, without knowing it.

Jessica Campbell 5:12 Honestly, yes. And you know what's the most interesting thing of all of this? I look back, my mom played college hockey, and she actually coached my first boys' team. So this, I have this powerful photo where my mom was the coach of this all-boys team and I was the only girl. And I think she didn't know it then, but when I look back on it now, she gave me permission to believe in leadership, looking a little bit differently as well.

Adam Grant 5:36 So interesting. So I'm thinking about some research that one of my collaborators, Karen Knowlton, did on becoming a trailblazer, where she was interested in what motivates people to, to wanna break barriers. Um, and in your case-

Jessica Campbell 5:48 Mm

Adam Grant 5:48 ... I guess that would be a, a pretty significant glass ceiling. And she found that one of the, the key catalysts is having a strong sense of belonging with your group. So if you-

Jessica Campbell 5:58 Mm

Adam Grant 5:58 ... didn't identify as a woman in her data, you'd be less likely To, like, to wanna go and break the glass ceiling, whereas feeling like you're a representative of, of the group leads you to say, "Okay, I've gotta open that door for others." So that leads me to wonder, [laughs] like, did, you know, did being, as Rosabeth Moss Kanter first described it, to being a token, like the one woman in a group of men, or the one girl in a group of boys, did that strengthen your identification with your gender, and did that pave the way in some ways for you to become a trailblazer?

Jessica Campbell 6:30 Yes. I've learned that when I lean into my differences, that actually h- has me showing up as my most confident, authentic self. But when you're, when you're going through it as the first, um, or you're the only one, you can al- also feel imposter syndrome regularly. But I, I'm very much fueled by now what I, what I kind of call carrying a torch for other women, because it definitely drives me and motivates me knowing that, that I can use my differences as a woman to continue to hopefully change the game forward.

Adam Grant 7:07 What was the turning point that led you to say, "Yeah, I wanna do this. I wanna become the first full-time female coach in NHL history"?

Jessica Campbell 7:14 Well, I didn't have a blueprint. I had no necessarily clear path to follow, per se, of how it's done or how to get to working at the highest level of hockey, but it was never about that for me. It was always about doing the work and following my passion and just l- loving that process. And, and I knew that if I was excellent at what I did and that I had a positive impact, that that would take me exactly where I was meant to go anyways. So I worked with players of all ages,

Jessica Campbell 7:44 youth, boys and girls, and that went up to junior hockey players, college pro, and then the NHL players started to show up, and they were showing up for my coaching, my business, my, my approach, my method. And that's when it started to click for me, like, "Hmm, I'm doing something different," or, "They're showing up for a reason. What is that?" And as I started to unpack that and just kind of really take in all of the, the input and build relationships with NHL players, o- one of the, one of the pros, he's now retired, Brent Seabrook, you know, we were doing one-on-one private sessions working on rehabbing his skating, and he said to me, "You're gonna, you're gonna be in the NHL one day. You're gonna be coaching in the NHL one day." And I'll never forget it, because it was on my 27th birthday, and I came home, I called my dad. Said, "How was your birthday?" I said, "Guess what Brent said to me." And, and I, I said, he mirrored a belief in me that I had about, in a, maybe in a naive way thought about, but never had what I thought was permission to believe I could do, or never had v- visibility to believe it was possible. And he said something to me in that moment that, that I think became so affirmative in- inside or gave me that internal seed that just exploded at that point. It was like, you know what? I can do this. And there's, I think, some sad truth in that, that I didn't need permission, but when I was given that same belief or when that was mirrored back to me from a player who obviously was a vetted pro, a winner, a champion at this level, as a young aspiring coach that was motivated and passionate, I believe had talent, um, that, that went so far for me to believe that it was possible. And at that point I just said, "All right. I'm gonna chase this. I'm gonna do it as best as I can, and I'm gonna see where it takes me."

Adam Grant 9:30 Did he tell you why he believed in you?

Jessica Campbell 9:32 No, not in that moment, but he has unpacked that with me since. I, I had a unique approach to them. The, the drills, the sessions, they were all my own drills. I hadn't worked in the NHL before, and it is a copycat league, I kid you not. We have very [laughs] very good coaches in our league, but when you're the best league in the world, everyone's copying. I never came from the NHL, so all of my drills, my ideas were from my own experience, and they were new. And whether they were innovative or not, they were different, and so they were hitting differently for the players. And you know, something Brent said to me was, "You always reached out and followed up with, 'How are you doing? How are you feeling?' And, 'What are you thinking for tomorrow?'" Even though I had a plan in my head of how it was gonna go, I did that, and I didn't realize that that was paying dividends for my relationship with him and what he valued in good coaching at the NHL level.

Adam Grant 10:21 So I imagine not everyone you've encountered has been so supportive. What are [laughs] what... Maybe, maybe I'll ask you, what's the most extreme skepticism you've encountered?

Jessica Campbell 10:32 So I heard no more often than not, but that's exactly why I started my own business. And there was a lot of closed doors and, and awful things said, things that I won't even repeat, but terrible things said of why I was getting opportunities, why she would be at this level. And I had to silence all of the hate, all of that noise, and I had to avoid all of that and, you know, turn within and ask myself, "Okay, what am I gonna do with these noes? Like, am I gonna let it squash my passion? No, because I love this. This is what I love to do." So it's not about being in the NHL or getting to the NHL. It's about following that passion and, and trying to have the best impact on every team, every individual. And I always said, "There's no player too big or small that's, that's not worthy of my coaching." And that kinda was my guiding mantra early on, and that silenced out a lot of, you know, the noise around me and what I was doing and what I was building. And instead of, you know, getting to the door and trying to apply, trying to get the job, trying to work for the team that was resistant, trying to be the first, I just said, "That's okay," walked away and built my own house and decided to see who would walk in.

Adam Grant 11:46 What would you say are your key strengths as a coach?

Jessica Campbell 11:49 So okay, three things for me that I've really put my finger on in the last few years are listen, lift, and love. And those three things are at the core of listening, building real human relationships. Like, not just approaching the player that I'm working with as a player, as a talent, as an ability, approaching them as a human being that, that Has a backstory, has an experience, has thoughts, has feelings, has viewpoints, um, is, ticks differently, and I think that's, that's really integral. And, you know, helping lift them up to their highest potential is about showing up when it's hard and really being process-oriented with, with the player. How can we get to work to do more and be more while still being content with being asked to play a certain role on a team? And so it's really showing up with belief and care, and I think that an empowered person goes through walls when they feel seen and valued. And so then the last part of it is love, and without love, I don't think coaching is anything, to be honest. [laughs] Like, that's the root of why we show up for others, and I'm not talking the necessarily soft kind of love. I'm talking creating standards of excellence and creating a safe space and psychological safety for, I think for players to be able to function at their best and know that, hey, a kick in the ass can be a good thing because I have high standards for you, because you and I have created this agreement between each other that to be your best, you gotta do X, Y, Z. I'm here to guide you. I'm here to get you back there. But it also goes with when they are doing well, like lifting them up and celebrating their wins and saying, "Hey, remember when you couldn't do this and now you're here, and look what you're doing." And something I heard early on, and this is so true, and you probably can help me understand research behind it, but they don't care how much you know until they know how much you care about them.

Adam Grant 13:52 That, I mean, Jess, that makes a lot of sense to me. I have to wonder, does it ever worry you, though, that you're playing into feminine stereotypes that way? I, I see this all the time with female leaders wh- or people-

Jessica Campbell 14:04 Mm-hmm

Adam Grant 14:04 ... are trying to make the case and they say things like, "Well, we need, we need more women in leadership because women excel at empathy and trust-

Jessica Campbell 14:12 Mm-hmm

Adam Grant 14:12 ... and care." Like, no. [laughs] No, no, that is not the right case to make. The right case to make is let's talk about all the essential skills of leadership and say there's no gender that has a monopoly on those.

Jessica Campbell 14:24 Yeah. It's, I'm, like, laughing because I feel that all the time. All the things you said I think are strengths that I have, but I think that there's sh- strength in taking a different approach, and, uh, whether that's a soft one or whether that's a more pragmatic approach to the person understanding the scenario, that's actually more thoughtful and strategic, not weak or soft or not serving to the player. And I've seen players thrive on a softer approach than a harder approach, and that's why I think having well-balanced teams with different skillsets, different perspectives, regardless of gender, not about gender, actually make for a more dangerous coaching staff.

Adam Grant 15:05 Yeah. And I think also it's worth noting that when you invest in listen, lift, and love, you then earn more license to challenge, right? Players-

Jessica Campbell 15:16 100%.

Adam Grant 15:16 Players are less threatened, they're less defensive than when you tell them they're, they're not living up to their, you know, to their own goals or your expectations of them.

Jessica Campbell 15:24 The goal in coaching and in leadership probably you could say is creating a space where you can meet a person and really un- like unpack what's important. There's a space that I think if you can go there and be vulnerable and be real, like I say to players all the time, "How are you feeling? Where are you at?" I'll have a bunch of clips to show them, mistakes or affirmations of them playing the right way, but before I show them anything, I'm like, "Where are you at? Where are you at right now? Where's your head at?" Because unless I know that, I can't approach what I'm about to show you without better understanding of how it could help you, and I think that takes emotional awareness. I think it takes reps and time to figure that out, but it is about a foundation of communication and trust.

Adam Grant 16:10 A lot of leaders, and this, actually this isn't unique to, to leaders at all. [laughs] I know so many people who struggle at dishing out tough love.

Jessica Campbell 16:18 Mm.

Adam Grant 16:18 They don't know how to do it, and-

Jessica Campbell 16:20 Yeah

Adam Grant 16:21 ... you get to do it every day. I'm wondering if you can give me some concrete examples of, like, what do you say to players when you have to give them... You-

Jessica Campbell 16:28 [laughs]

Adam Grant 16:28 You said a kick in the ass. Like, give me some sentences. What, what does that sound like?

Jessica Campbell 16:32 Well, I don't like giving tough love. It's not something that I love to do by s- but I, but I'm not a coach that when I see a mistake in our team's game, the structure of how we play, I don't see that mistake and go, "Ugh, he can't do this. He sucks." I see it as like, "Hmm, that's out of norm. If he only were to move his feet quicker here, he wouldn't be in that situation in the first place." So it's about a breakdown before the actual mistake. It's not his incompetence or, or he's u- uncapable of doing it, performing at it. So I, I try to at least when I, when I have to deliver a tough message to a player, I do try to sandwich it with they have been in that same scenario before, but done the right thing. I try to lead with that path of, "Hey, you've been in this position before. I have a clip here, a bad turnover that cost us the game, and we don't even need to watch it. You know, you lived it, you felt it. But you've been in this position, and look, here's three scenarios where you've done it right, and look what, look what it led to. A goal the next shift because you made the simple play, you made the selfless play. You're not a bad teammate. You just made a bad decision in that moment." It's about, I think, reframing and rephrasing it. This is why I listen to your podcast so much. We're in the business of psychology, of working through people and how to get them to better serve themselves, and so it's all approach and tact, and then also understanding that player.

Adam Grant 17:58 What if you haven't seen them do it well in the past? What do you do then?

Jessica Campbell 18:02 I try to show them someone they admire or respect in the game doing it correctly, and I, I ask them, "What do you see?" Like, "What do you see when he's coming downhill?" It's like, "Oh, he's got his toes here. He's so..." And I'm like, "Okay, let's watch the same clip because I think you can do the same, and when you get the puck in that position, you're scoring every time." There's that mirroring of belief of what they can do if, versus, like, showing them all the ways that they can't do it. It's like- Build the vision and dissect it for them, and then approach them with a plan. "Hey, so tomorrow before practice, let's rep that out. Let's get you handling pucks in that, you know, in that position. I just want you to feel it, I want you to see it." But it's the art of convincing them and selling them through, like, what, what would be, I think, a very difficult conversation.

Adam Grant 18:50 That tracks so well with the psychology of goal setting and feedback, where [laughs] what we wanna do is we wanna show you the gap between where you are and where you wanna go.

Jessica Campbell 18:58 Mm-hmm. Yes.

Adam Grant 18:59 And often that means we have to both make sure you're clear on what the present looks like, but also, like you said, build up that image of, okay, and this is what the desired future looks like, and it's, it, it's, it's in reach. It's something that, that I can emulate. It's something I can work toward.

Jessica Campbell 19:15 Mm-hmm.

Adam Grant 19:16 I, I'm thinking about some evidence on coaching individuals versus teams.

Jessica Campbell 19:20 Mm-hmm.

Adam Grant 19:21 Which shows that sometimes when you give individuals feedback, they end up making adjustments that are good for their growth but don't serve the group. And in order to get people to, uh, improve together as a team, you have to give group level feedback. Like, what, how does your, your coaching and feedback look different when you have to give comments to the whole team as opposed to one player at a time?

Jessica Campbell 19:41 Well, that's, I think that's the standards of excellence you have to establish early. So usually that happens in training camp for us. And then from there, reinforce the message, "This is us. This is what we do, this." And then, then you can start to call that out, those who are deviating from that standard. And that's, that's painful. In moments, like when players get called out, they all respond differently. Some, like, some actually feed off of, like, "Oh, no," and they, like, next game, never happens again. Others are, like, a little bit more dogs around it. [laughs] It's like shame, you know? And then they forget that they just, like, got whacked and they do it again. And you're like, "Ugh." You have to figure those guys out, how to then go work through them on an individual. But they all respond differently, and I think unless you have clear set standards, not rules, I don't like rules, but clear standards of how we are gonna operate, I always say, "What's our MO?" And these are somewhat non-negotiables to the identity of the, the way we wanna play. And when those things show up, you celebrate them. This is team. This is team. And when they're not, this is not team. But again, it's about framing it that way.

Adam Grant 20:47 Yep. Okay. Lightning round time. You ready?

Jessica Campbell 20:49 Okay, cool.

Adam Grant 20:50 Worst coaching advice you hear.

Jessica Campbell 20:52 The one that drives me the most crazy, and I hope you can help me unpack it more, is, "Just be grateful to be in the NHL." That one really sucks because, you know, I had a player, this is a role player who's kind of in and out of the lineup, unbelievable character, one of the best guys on the team, totally a glue guy, who said, I asked him, "How's it going?" He's like, hasn't played a game in, I don't know, 15 games. He said, "There's no bad days in the NHL, Jess." And I said, "Hmm." When I hear that sometimes I'm like, just be grateful has not gotten me anywhere in life. Just being grateful. [laughs] You know? No, like, demand more, be more, want more, strive for more. Like, we're all playing this game to continue to grow something, and if we just are grateful, that to me it's just like a sense of contentment and complacency, and-

Adam Grant 21:40 I, I-

Jessica Campbell 21:41 I don't know if you have thoughts on that

Adam Grant 21:41 ... I've actually published some research that speaks to that, yeah. The, uh, showing that gratitude feels good, but it doesn't always motivate us to do better. It can be-

Jessica Campbell 21:51 Mm-hmm

Adam Grant 21:51 ... to your point, very passive. I think it's good to be grateful for the opportunities that we've gotten, but we also have a responsibility-

Jessica Campbell 21:58 Mm-hmm

Adam Grant 21:58 ... then to make the most of them.

Jessica Campbell 21:59 100%.

Adam Grant 22:00 Okay, back to the lightning round. Best coaching advice.

Jessica Campbell 22:03 Ooh, I got this, this recently from a player actually, who's now turned to executive coaching. He said, "You cannot judge a player and love them at the same time." When you're judging someone, you're, we are oftentimes putting them in a box or assuming things about them that aren't true or real. When you remove judgment, then love can come back in, and potential and opportunity and perspective changes greatly.

Adam Grant 22:29 What's something you've rethought lately?

Jessica Campbell 22:30 When the world or industry you work in tells you to try to fit in, it's crap. Don't listen to it. Because any time I find myself starting to creep that direction, I lose sight of myself and what I'm good at and what I bring to the table.

Adam Grant 22:47 Good riddance to conformity for conformity's sake.

Jessica Campbell 22:50 [laughs]

Adam Grant 22:50 Okay. You said you had questions for me.

Jessica Campbell 22:53 Okay, I do. All right. So I wrote this, this down. In regards to coaching or leadership, like, what kind of feedback actually changes individual behavior, doesn't just create awareness of it?

Adam Grant 23:06 Yeah. So I'm thinking of a, there was a meta-analysis, Kluger and DeNisi, um, of 100 years of feedback research, where they accumulated all the experiments that have ever been published on the topic. The, the first thing they did was they busted a myth that I had believed in for a long time, which is I, I think as an optimist, I assumed that positive feedback was more motivating than negative feedback.

Jessica Campbell 23:27 Mm.

Adam Grant 23:27 And negative feedback was more informative than positive feedback.

Jessica Campbell 23:31 Yep.

Adam Grant 23:31 And basically it was a wash. [laughs] Like, there was, there was no difference in the effectiveness of praise versus criticism overall.

Jessica Campbell 23:38 Oh, that's so interesting.

Adam Grant 23:40 And I think you can, you could probably attest to this, like, s- it, it is true that often novices need more praise to believe that they can do it, and experts-

Jessica Campbell 23:49 Mm-hmm

Adam Grant 23:49 ... are more motivated to seek and benefit from criticism because they don't have as much doubt, and, you know, they're trying to overcome whatever's got them stuck where they are. Then the second thing that, that stood out was w- if it's not whether it's, you know, encouraging or deflating [laughs] that really matters, what is it? And the key finding was that feedback gets less effective as it focuses on the person, and more effective as it focuses on the task and behavior.

Jessica Campbell 24:13 Hmm.

Adam Grant 24:13 So if I tell you-

Jessica Campbell 24:14 Oh

Adam Grant 24:14 ... you suck at something, [laughs] that-

Jessica Campbell 24:16 Yep

Adam Grant 24:16 ... that tends to elicit defensiveness. If I tell you-

Jessica Campbell 24:19 Yep

Adam Grant 24:19 ... that the behavior you engaged in sucked, or that your approach to this task sucked, then you look at that and say, "Okay, I need to adjust that, and I have control over that." It relates to the point you were making earlier about guilt versus shame.

Jessica Campbell 24:31 Right. Like, this is team, and we all wanna be part of that team concept. Playing to that team behavior

Adam Grant 24:37 Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, one of the, one of the lessons for me on that is when I give feedback, I wanna get people to the behavior as quickly as possible. And so I will often ask them to do the self-assessment first, which reduces defensiveness and gets them into a conversation. But also-

Jessica Campbell 24:54 Mm-hmm

Adam Grant 24:54 ... you know, prevents it from being a one-way monologue, and allows us to have a real dialogue. And what I wanna know is if you could redo that performance, what is the first thing that you would do differently? Or-

Jessica Campbell 25:06 Mm

Adam Grant 25:06 ... if you get to do this again tomorrow, what's the first adjustment you're gonna make? And we're immediately in the zone of talking about specific controllable actions. And that way, I'm not judging you, right? I am here to try to help you get better. And as a coach, uh, I wanna know what you think was standing in the way of, you know, of you being as effective as you could be. So I think that would be my, my first answer to your question.

Jessica Campbell 25:32 I think that could definitely trigger awareness. It's not necessarily a way to just slam them with the toughness side of it. You can still paint that in a very positive way to get, I think, a direct behavior change.

Adam Grant 25:44 I think so, too. And when, when people start coaching themselves out loud, you see what they already know. And-

Jessica Campbell 25:49 Mm-hmm

Adam Grant 25:50 ... you know, you can, you can just say, "Yeah, I agree with that. We don't have to spend a lot of time on it." You also discover what their blind spots are, what's invisible to them, and then you can-

Jessica Campbell 25:58 Mm-hmm

Adam Grant 25:59 ... pay more attention to the things that are novel for them.

Jessica Campbell 26:01 I love that. Okay, I have a couple more for you.

Adam Grant 26:03 Oh, fire away.

Jessica Campbell 26:04 Do women have to earn trust differently than men? And, like, what actually builds that trust, if there's a difference?

Adam Grant 26:12 There's actually an active debate on this in the research right now. Conflicting findings. So f- for a long time, the, the dominant trend was that basically, unfairly, women had to fulfill certain gender stereotypes in order to-

Jessica Campbell 26:27 Mm

Adam Grant 26:27 ... be liked and trusted. So, you know, women were evaluated more harshly if they, you know, failed to be warm and caring than men were, for example. And you know, men sort of got a pass if they were, like, a little bit too tough, uh, because that didn't violate gender stereotypes. But there's a growing body of evidence suggesting that women actually can differentiate themselves effectively by deliberately violating gender stereotypes. And so if you're gonna speak up, for example, with a, a challenging idea, or you're gonna give some tough feedback, it surprises people more, um, if you do it in a way that, that shows real, um, authority. And so I think the jury is out right now. I don't have a clear sense of what are the really robust gender differences. I think my hunch, if, if I had to try to reconcile the, the conflicting evidence, and this is me thinking out loud, my hunch right now is that what's going on is deviating from stereotypes works if you do it to a small degree. But-

Jessica Campbell 27:26 Mm

Adam Grant 27:26 ... major violations are, are still seen as unacceptable. And so I think we probably still live in a world where women have to do more to establish their, their warmth and their care.

Jessica Campbell 27:35 Mm.

Adam Grant 27:35 You have to, you have to earn the right to say no, which is ridiculous. You have to earn-

Jessica Campbell 27:41 Yeah

Adam Grant 27:41 ... the right to tell somebody they, you know, they really let the team down. But I think sort of a, the daily, "Hey, that wasn't your best practice," might actually work better for a woman than a man. And I think it's, I just think it's absurd that we, we still have to think about this in 2026, but here we are. Uh, what do you make of that?

Jessica Campbell 28:02 I, I really respect what you're saying because I think it's, it's real and I'm living that right now in terms of I see different players throughout my journey and experience where they are kind of caught off guard when I'm disappointed. I've seen my best turnaround in players when I am silent and angry, and they're like, "Oh no, it's like mom's mad and disappointed," and they feel that weight differently or something. I don't know what it is. I can't put my finger on it. But I have joked with former players that I've coached and they're like, "You were so mad," and like, "You didn't speak and we, we knew exactly we needed to change."

Adam Grant 28:35 Wow. Yeah, I think this is, this reinforces what we were talking about earlier, which is, you know, I think my read of the evidence is if you didn't bend over backward to listen, lift, and love, when you came down hard on them and you showed disappointment, they would unfairly think you were a bitch. And-

Jessica Campbell 28:51 Yeah, exactly

Adam Grant 28:52 ... men just don't have to deal with that, period.

Jessica Campbell 28:54 [laughs] 100%, yes. [laughs]

Adam Grant 28:57 All right. Did you have anything else on your list or did we cover your questions?

Jessica Campbell 29:00 The only other last one that I have thought about a lot is just more so around the cost of going first. There's all this weird interesting things of doing things for the first time, and then also, like, what the psychological cost to that. Because it feel, it feels heavy. It does feel heavy.

Adam Grant 29:15 Yeah.

Jessica Campbell 29:16 I will say that. I do carry, I carry a lot of that and I try to do it with grace and pride, but yeah.

Adam Grant 29:21 What's the line? Heavy lies the head that wears the crown.

Jessica Campbell 29:23 Mm-hmm.

Adam Grant 29:24 I'm thinking of a, a few pieces of research on this. The first one is I think it actually depends on the level you're at. So there's some research by Ashley Rosette showing that at the very top of a hierarchy, um, s- a lot of the, like, the negative judgments of female leaders start to dissipate because people know that you had to be that much better to get there.

Jessica Campbell 29:46 Mm.

Adam Grant 29:46 And so, you know, I think first, like, full-time female coach in the NHL, it's probably more stressful because of the responsibility level, but maybe you get negatively stereotyped a little bit less than, you know, if you're the, like, the first female coach, um, at your high school. I don't know if that one tracks.

Jessica Campbell 30:04 It does. I think it's interesting because some of my most wholesome, positive experiences have been with the pros, and some of my worst experiences have been exactly that in, at smaller levels with junior players who've disrespected me or think that's right because they have not developed their brains fully to be able to respond to new a- new or different leadership, right? [laughs] So that, that's on, definitely on brand to some of the, the vetted out pros and the environment has proven to respond more positively.

Adam Grant 30:35 I think you've had some work on Olympic figure skating judging. My read of some of the data there is that you wanna go first if you're good But not if you're average. So, like, an amazing skater who goes first will set the standard and everybody's just blown away. Whereas if you're a mediocre skater, you're judged by a harsher standard if you go first, but once a bunch of other people have gone, you're held to more realistic expectations. And so I think the more competent you are, the easier it is probably to be the trailblazer.

Jessica Campbell 31:04 Yeah. I mean, that, that feels like a coaching decision when you're, when you're in the moment of w- a game's on the line and you gotta put your best shooter out to win the game. And there's sometimes where you think, "Okay, this young talent, this could both help him or hurt him. Is he mentally ready for the moment? He has the talent and the ability to score, but does he have the vetted experience to handle the magnitude of the emotional moment that comes behind putting the, the game on the line for your team?" You typically go with the one who obviously has the skillset and the most experience to the, obviously the competence piece to that, because we can, we can live and die on that decision if it goes wrong somewhat. [laughs]

Adam Grant 31:42 Yeah.

Jessica Campbell 31:42 I actually love the risky approach, too, of like everyone has to do something for the first time before it's done. That was good advice I got from a coach. "What are you stressed about? Everybody who's ever done anything in life had to do it for the first time somewhere on some level on some platform." Just the bigger the stage, the higher performance and the magnitude of having the microscope on that moment is what I think feels different and heavier, but it does hit with me in terms of exactly that, the figure skating analogy.

Adam Grant 32:08 Yeah. Okay, good. Last one. Um, I'm thinking about some work that Becky Schomburg led showing that leaders who are prone to guilt are actually more effective.

Jessica Campbell 32:19 Interesting.

Adam Grant 32:20 I think what's going on here is that instead of, you know, withdrawing or attacking from the shame of feeling like a bad person, they get the guilt of, "Uh-oh, I did a bad thing," w- or maybe more often the anticipated guilt of, "I don't wanna screw this up." And they, they feel that, like that weight on their shoulders of, "I can't let the team down."

Jessica Campbell 32:39 Mm.

Adam Grant 32:39 And that I think drives more servant leadership. I think it drives more caring coaching, more planning.

Jessica Campbell 32:46 Mm-hmm.

Adam Grant 32:46 I, I think this one seems to describe you pretty well.

Jessica Campbell 32:49 [laughs] Yeah. I love the first time moment of stepping on the ice with a player who's never experienced having a female coach because there's always this like curious experience on the receiving end of the player of, "What's this gonna be like?" And I think that's huge opportunity for me. It's like everything to gain, nothing to lose, because what's, what are they comparing me to? I could come into this with my full self, and at the end of the day, I could walk away. Whether it hit or worked or didn't, it can only get better. It can't get that much worse.

Adam Grant 33:21 As I listen to you, I actually think this c- connects back to our earlier discussion of gratitude. Amy Wrzesniewski and I did some research years ago where we found that people who are givers rather than takers, who tend to be very other-oriented, were less likely to get complacent, and that was because they both anticipated other people being grateful when they succeeded, but also worried about feeling guilty if they failed. And-

Jessica Campbell 33:47 Wow

Adam Grant 33:47 ... I think both of those emotions have a place, right? I, I wanna expect that [laughs] people will, you know, will really appreciate what I've done when I excel, but I also wanna know they're gonna be disappointed, they're gonna be bummed if I don't deliver.

Jessica Campbell 34:01 Wow. Yeah, that's... I think that's it. I'm gonna be thinking about that all day. [laughs]

Adam Grant 34:06 [laughs] Jess, thank you for joining us.

Jessica Campbell 34:09 No, thank you.

Adam Grant 34:09 What a treat.

Jessica Campbell 34:10 Thank you for having me. [upbeat music]