Re:Thinking with Adam GrantThe science of effective parenting with Aliza Pressman
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
30 min read · 6,382 words- 0:00 – 0:28
Why “gentle parenting” shouldn’t be treated like a religion
- AGAdam Grant
It seems to me that you are not a fan of the gentle parenting movement.
- APAliza Pressman
[laughs] I am not a big fan. Like, I think it's not a religion, so we don't need to be religious about it. There is not a scientist in the world that's like, "We are totally certain about anything in this particular very vulnerable area of raising kids." Humans are too complex. [upbeat music]
- 0:28 – 2:27
The parenting “knowing–doing gap”: why experts still struggle
- AGAdam Grant
So Aliza, I, I wanna start in an unusual place here, which is-
- APAliza Pressman
Oh. [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs] You've seen me parent a little bit.
- APAliza Pressman
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
What am I doing wrong?
- APAliza Pressman
Ugh. Unfortunately, you're doing so much right that it's gonna be a short start to this conversation. [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Not the answer I am looking for.
- APAliza Pressman
I know, I'm sorry.
- AGAdam Grant
What is something I can do better as a parent from what you've observed?
- APAliza Pressman
I love that you like feedback. There is absolutely no way that I have observed something that you have done in your parenting that's gonna get you what you're looking for. My only feedback might be that you have to stop thinking you can optimize here, because you've done it. Let's talk about what you do right, 'cause maybe that, maybe you'll see that you're faking it in front of me-
- AGAdam Grant
Mm-hmm
- APAliza Pressman
... and then you'll realize how much more to do of that. Because I would say that I know how to be a phenomenal parent. I am only a phenomenal parent every once in a while. [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Let's actually start there. What-
- APAliza Pressman
Okay.
- AGAdam Grant
Wh- why is there such a gap for you, given that you're a parenting expert?
- APAliza Pressman
Because ultimately g- I'm still a human being, and I'm still susceptible to my mood, my inner engine, like, my, um, my taking personally something, my self-regulation skills, and those are all the things that you need to be in top form to be an amazing parent. On the flip side, I feel I'm not berating myself for it, because I also know how critical it is for our kids to see mistakes and bouncing back from mistakes and repair. So I'm, like, a little probably easier. If you asked my kids they would say, "You could be a little less with the, [laughs] with the grace that you give yourself." [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, wow. Okay, that's interesting. So I always think about these, these kinds of disconnects as knowing-doing gaps, and I'm curious about what your biggest one is.
- 2:27 – 4:10
Autonomy support in real life: the silver vs. gold shoes lesson
- APAliza Pressman
My biggest one, and actually my younger daughter called me out on this. This was such a silly small thing, but it really does capture my parenting, where I feel pretty good about how autonomy-supportive I am, and we can talk about what that means, but it's pretty good parenting. And she was having a bat mitzvah, this was many years ago, and she was wearing a dress, and I was getting shoes with her. And she... I said, "Get whatever shoes you want. Doesn't matter." And then I basically encouraged her to get silver instead of gold shoes, okay? And every shoe that she wanted, I was steering her away back to the silver shoes. And then I ordered a pair of silver shoes just in case for her to try on both, and she said to me, "Why don't you just tell me that I don't have a choice and that I can't wear whatever shoes I want? You know? Like, why are you pretending that you're so open with this particular thing? Why don't you just say, 'Hey, there are certain things that I am not giving you a choice on?'" [laughs] "And don't make it out to be like, 'Oh, I made this decision.'" And basically she was calling me out on something I do at, at a much bigger scale that is a flaw, which is I want to do the thing that I should be doing of autonomy support, but sometimes I'm like, "Ugh, I'm just, I know so much better," and so I'm gonna intervene when I shouldn't. Even though if I were talking to someone else, I would say, "They have to make these mistakes." And obviously silver and gold shoes is a pretty low stakes [laughs] mistake, but the idea is just I am so good at knowing when I don't need to intervene, but I intervene anyway many times.
- 4:10 – 6:09
How much help is too much? Research on intrusive support and scaffolding
- AGAdam Grant
When I think about these kinds of challenges, I think one of the mistakes is that we treat every parenting interaction as if it's a unique event.
- APAliza Pressman
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
As opposed to looking at them more systemically. And so part of what I find myself wanting to do here is to say, "Okay, you know that you wanna respect your kids' autonomy. You also know occasionally you're gonna have knowledge and preferences and want to guide them toward what's best. So why don't you just give yourself a quota?" [laughs] Like what if, what if you had-
- APAliza Pressman
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
... if you were allowed to intervene once a month-
- APAliza Pressman
Mm-hmm
- AGAdam Grant
... and then in that moment you would, you would say, like, "Are shoes the hill that I wanna die on?"
- APAliza Pressman
Right, exactly.
- AGAdam Grant
Is, is this the battle worth fighting? Is there any research on this, or have you ever thought about, like, creating some kind of limit to keep yourself in check?
- APAliza Pressman
Well, there's no, there's no, like, study where somebody figured out, like, how much support or, like, stepping in, intervening just so, but we do have lots of research on the sort of extreme ends of it. If you were intrusive, like if you're s- intervening so much. Like, in those three bag studies that they do a lot of times with younger kids, they offer basically bags of, of toys, let's say a puzzle, over different time periods, and they're looking at the interaction between the parent and the child. The parent is being watched, and the way they're guiding or scaffolding or intrusively, you know, w- in a well-meaning way helping gives a lot of insight into the kind of support that becomes problematic. So it's still support, but it just goes into this category of, like, too much. And I think that would be kind of analogous to what you're talking about of just, you know, kind of trying to figure out, like, "Okay, I'm, I'm gonna help out a little bit. I'm gonna intervene a little bit, but I'm, I'm not gonna intervene so much that they don't think they're capable of making decisions and mistakes without being afraid of both that, the outcome of that and also my reaction to it."
- 6:09 – 9:08
Core principle: “All feelings are welcome, but all behaviors are not”
- AGAdam Grant
Yep, that makes sense. It reminded me of one of my all-time favorite quotes All time. It's from you.
- APAliza Pressman
Oh. [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
You said, "All feelings are welcome, but all behaviors are not."
- APAliza Pressman
Yeah. That's it.
- AGAdam Grant
I-
- APAliza Pressman
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
I cannot think of a more important bit of wisdom for parenting, but also for leadership, for all kinds of relationships, and I wanna spend some time on this. So how did you come to this? Is this [laughs] is this a, a research informed-
- APAliza Pressman
Yes
- AGAdam Grant
... observation? Give me the backstory.
- APAliza Pressman
Basically, a- my whole job is to translate all this research to parents so that it can be applicable, or to healthcare providers so it can be applicable. And I was thinking about how w- ultimately, any parenting book you read, it comes down to, or any study, it ends up coming down to warmth, sensitivity on one end, and, um, you know, high demands. You can call it control, you can call it whatever you want, but it comes down to balancing those two things of support and demands. And how do you explain that in every context except that whatever question you ask about your kids, pretty much, with some variation, comes down to all feelings are welcome, all behaviors are not. So you're giving both the warmth and sensitivity about acknowledging that child's feelings, allowing them to have them. You're not in charge of somebody's feelings, and this would be true, you're right, in any relationship, any healthy relationship. And then that doesn't mean that you don't curb behavior and contain things, because it's our job to set those limits and have appropriate boundaries. And without that, kids aren't safe, people aren't safe, relationships aren't safe, workplaces, not safe.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. So I'm, I'm just thinking about a- the, just the, this just extraordinary range of situations in which like this, this idea applies.
- APAliza Pressman
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
You know, everything from-
- APAliza Pressman
Let's do it. [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
You're, like, okay, so on a, on a small scale, like you're allowed to be mad. You're not allowed to slam your door.
- APAliza Pressman
Right.
- AGAdam Grant
Is a, is a simple example of this.
- APAliza Pressman
Exactly.
- AGAdam Grant
Or I guess on a higher stakes level, um, you know, you're, you're allowed to feel disappointed and discouraged. You're not allowed to call your teacher names.
- APAliza Pressman
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs] You're allowed to be bored. You're not allowed to skip school.
- APAliza Pressman
I mean, literally every single thing you're saying, down to when people are trying to figure out the rules for their household. I mean, it has to align with your values, of course, and that's where the behavior, the, the personal decision comes in. What, what can you tolerate as a parent? Like, some people don't care about certain behaviors that other families care about. But it, it applies to everything. And think about your relationships in general. It's, it's sort of a good check with yourself. Did I honor the feelings? Did I maintain and contain the behaviors? And like, are we still working on those things?
- 9:08 – 13:32
Making feelings welcome without lecturing: regulation, presence, and validation
- AGAdam Grant
Okay. So honoring the feelings I think is relatively straightforward. It's not always easy to do, right? But the, [laughs] the practice itself is pretty simple. To acknowledge, to validate feelings as opposed to judging them or shaming them. How do we do that in practice?
- APAliza Pressman
The thing that helps me is I think about the friends of mine who I will go to about any of my shameful feelings [laughs] and how they respond, and what is it about them that makes me keep coming to them when I'm going through something. And there is something in the way that people who are easy to talk to communicate. They don't even have to say anything. Like, the all feelings are welcome can happen by just r- like, making sure that your particular nervous system is so regulated that it's giving a clue and a cue to the other person that you're not thrown by their feelings, because that also welcomes feelings without saying... 'Cause, you know, if you said to a teenager, "All feelings are welcome, all behaviors are not," I don't know any teenager that's not gonna be like, "Ex- [laughs] get out of my face."
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. [laughs]
- APAliza Pressman
[laughs] That's so annoying. But you're still telling them by being able to handle what they're going through that that feeling is welcome. So it doesn't always need to be with words.
- AGAdam Grant
I like that. Okay. So then like what are, what are examples, to get really concrete, what are examples of things that parents oughta say to [laughs] to make all feelings welcome?
- APAliza Pressman
So concretely, I would avoid saying things like, "If it were me, I would've felt grateful." You know? Because you're just continuing to give messages of, of your belief that like how a person feels should be dictated by your belief system. Nobody wants to talk to that person about their deep stuff, and we want our kids to come to us. I would also say something like, "I, I, um, I feel that way, too. I get it." Especially with older kids as they start to have kind of really hard stuff where you want to say, "This is a nothing burger [laughs] in the grand scheme of life."
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. [laughs]
- APAliza Pressman
It feels better that you're not d- diminishing how big it feels for them in that moment. And on the flip side, the first time I had a bad breakup, like my first boyfriend breakup, I was so sad. And I told my mom, and she cried. And I was like, "Well, this is not all feelings are welcome." [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- APAliza Pressman
Because clearly my feelings are too hard for her to experience. She welled up with tears, and it was in the sweetest, most sensitive way, so it can come across in different ways. I would've preferred had she said, "This is so hard. I'm here. Let's watch a bunch of sad movies. I'll make you a snack."
- AGAdam Grant
First of all, very powerful, right? Because [laughs] like I, when you started describing it, I was, my first reaction was, "Oh, wow, she's empathizing with you. She's crying for you."
- APAliza Pressman
Right.
- AGAdam Grant
But you're right. It, it signals that she was overwhelmed by your emotion as opposed to kind of sharing it and helping to support you through it.
- APAliza Pressman
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
And this will not surprise you. This is something I really struggle with as a parent because I wanna heal it. Right? What I wanna say is, "You know what? I remember going through a hard breakup and I wasted days feeling-
- APAliza Pressman
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
... like crap, [laughs] and I'm just like, it, it's just not worth it." And obviously that is not an empathetic response either.
- APAliza Pressman
Right. [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
So can you, can, can you help me not do that?
- APAliza Pressman
I love that you said a few days of a bad breakup, because I'm like, a few days? That feels very adaptive. [laughs] I can understand that impulse, but I would probably say you'd be better, if you want her to keep coming to you, you would be better off just putting your arm around her and giving her tissues and going for a walk. I mean, then you don't wanna go so far that you're, like, stretching this out and weeks have gone by and she's sobbing and you're co-ruminating-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- APAliza Pressman
... and then you're, like, bonding over the pain. But I think there's a, a space between where you just kinda give her the tissues, let her get through her stuff. Later, you might a few days or a few weeks later say, "You know, I've been thinking about it. I wanna, I just wanted to see what's happening for you. How's it going?" And then if she's still sad, or if you're getting some hints at feeling better, then you might offer that you do have some wisdom, if she's up for it.
- 13:32 – 16:30
When kids don’t comply: stop asking nine times and set a clear limit
- AGAdam Grant
Sage advice. On this subject, I'm, I'm thinking about another challenge that I think really speaks to the, the core of, like, making all feelings welcome and all behaviors not. Which is, I remember once, one of our kids said to me, "Don't be mad." And of course, like what's the res- "I am not mad."
- APAliza Pressman
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
But what I got back was, like, "Y- you're yelling at me." And I was shocked, because one of my first, like, unacceptable behaviors as a parent but also as a person is I don't yell, ever. I said, like, "You know, I m- I might be a little animated, but the tone you're hearing is not anger. I'm frustrated." S- it was something silly like, you know, the ninth time I had said, "Okay, go upstairs and brush your teeth, please."
- APAliza Pressman
Right.
- AGAdam Grant
Right? And just like no change in behavior whatsoever. And at that point, you know, I, I tried to explain my frustration. And i- is that where I should have started? Like, how do you recommend handling a situation like that?
- APAliza Pressman
First, I wanna know why anger is not an okay thing for you to feel toward your kids, when anger is a feeling that almost all parents have felt at some point toward their kids, even if it's not expressed with the screaming that you're talking about. And al-
- AGAdam Grant
I'm not an anger person, Aliza.
- APAliza Pressman
You're just not an anger person.
- AGAdam Grant
I just, I, I, mostly I would feel disappointed.
- APAliza Pressman
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
Like, I, I think, uh, what bothers me about anger is it's a self-centered emotion, right? It's about me, and rarely is your behavior about me.
- APAliza Pressman
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
And I know that. And so what, what I wanna feel and what I think I feel most of the time is, like, I had an expectation of you, and you didn't meet that.
- APAliza Pressman
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
That may or may not have any bearing on me, and so I'm not gonna be mad at you like, "You screwed me." Like [laughs] I'm just gonna be like, "Eh, you didn't do what I wanted you to do, and I'm kinda bummed about that."
- APAliza Pressman
That is so regulated. It is magnificent.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs] Thanks.
- APAliza Pressman
Um, no, it is. So that's the first thing, 'cause that models for your kids the nuance of all the different unpleasant and challenging feelings you can have that aren't at the level of anger. And so I think that's great, and there's research on this. But, like, you're not more likely to get the response you're looking for behaviorally asking more than two times, right? Than-
- AGAdam Grant
Ooh
- APAliza Pressman
... you would n- at nine times. So after two times, I feel like stop asking and just set the limit. Like, what, w- if they're not doing it, what happens next that you're not gonna be able to do, when they're younger. And then you also don't get as frustrated, 'cause you're like, "I didn't ask nine times. I didn't set myself up to lose it, because I said it once. I gave them a reminder. They know what's expected of them. I will await their, you know, good decision-making." And if they don't do it-
- AGAdam Grant
Oh
- APAliza Pressman
... the night goes on, and the consequences will be whatever the sort of natural consequences are.
- 16:30 – 19:32
Consequences vs. threats—and how boundaries evolve with age
- AGAdam Grant
This is so helpful. Sometimes I hesitate to do that because it feels like there's a fine line between a consequence and a threat.
- APAliza Pressman
For sure, and I think the, the consequence is just, if it's natural or logical, it's not a threat. It's just like, "The thing that you wanted to do, we are no longer gonna have time to do. We don't get more time than that, and so it's just a bummer. And also we're on the same team. Like, I want you to get this done so we get to do all the things that we set out to do for the end of the night." But I don't think that's a threat. I think a threat is done with l- our lack of control. When we don't feel in control, we threaten because we just need to grab onto something.
- AGAdam Grant
Hmm. That's a really good point.
- APAliza Pressman
The more important thing isn't to defend that you're not mad in that moment or you're not sad in that moment, but rather to say, "I'm not in a great place right now, but I'm s- you're safe. I'm safe. I just am not pleased with what's happening," and that's okay. I don't have to be. Then it goes back to all feelings are welcome. But they need to learn the same thing, which is that they are welcome to us as well.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. I, I think that's, it's so important to model, and easy to forget. Can you talk to me a little bit about how to enforce a boundary, and maybe how that evolves by age?
- APAliza Pressman
So I think when kids are younger, it's much more straightforward. It's like, how to keep them physically safe. Those are the boundaries that you set. And make sure that other people are physically safe. You let them know what's okay and what's not okay, and, and, uh, ultimately we know that kids feel more safe in, in a structured environment, like, where the boundaries are super clear. And then as they get older, it's, they wanna know why. All of us wanna know why there's a rule, that it's not arbitrary. So I check myself with this, and this is what I recommend, is, is the rule aligned with your values or are you wasting a rule?
- AGAdam Grant
Hmm.
- APAliza Pressman
Like, who cares? If you don't care, that means they're gonna be able to convince you out of it. I'd rather you just not have it in the first place so your kids know, like, if you have a limit That you're not bending. I mean, of course you can have conversations about it, but I know that phones in the bedroom after 9:00 PM aren't on the table. Like, that's just not happening in my house.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- APAliza Pressman
It's gonna be annoying. It's gonna cause problems. It's gonna be, like, a source of tension. Except that I'm never changing that rule, so it's gonna be easier to set that, have a boundary that you aren't letting anybody cross. I think what gets hard is if you're not really sure of yourself and you're like, "I think this is what my- I'm feeling about this. I don't know." And so your kids both can tell, and also they're right to question you. So I try to make sure I really care if I set a limit. And the other thing about boundaries is we just are in charge of them. Our kids can do whatever they want. They can cross them or not. It's our decision whether or not we stay true to what we had said and, and I think that's also hard for people.
- 19:32 – 20:47
Drawing the line: when “expressing feelings” becomes harmful behavior
- AGAdam Grant
Okay, there's a gray area here which I think a lot of parents find tricky, and that is setting boundaries on expressions of emotion.
- APAliza Pressman
Mm.
- AGAdam Grant
Let's say for example you've got a teenager who's complaining all the time-
- APAliza Pressman
Mm-hmm
- AGAdam Grant
... or who's acting out, and you say, "Okay, we're gonna set a boundary on how often you do that or, you know, like, how intensely you do that." And they're like, "But I'm just expressing my feelings."
- APAliza Pressman
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
Where do you draw the line between feelings and behavior there?
- APAliza Pressman
Once it starts impacting other people, it's no longer just feelings. I think that's where you draw the line. And I, I, I know that there are certain things that kids can say that can make us panic, and one of them is, "I'm expressing my feelings."
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- APAliza Pressman
"If you want me to tell you things, then you have to accept this." But I do think that we have to decide and kind of reflect on, what are the things that get to me? Like, what is the, the sentence that my daughter could say that makes me think, "Wait, am I going too far, or am I not far enough, or can I, can I do something about this?" And the, the answer is, if it's in any way compromising your values or it's impacting you, you have a right to say, "I don't like how this is going."
- 20:47 – 22:19
A nuanced critique of gentle parenting: permissiveness and differential susceptibility
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, I think, I think that's such a clear differentiation. [laughs] You can express whatever emotions you want until they're dragging other people down. So Aliza, from this conversation so far, it seems to me that you are not a fan of the gentle parenting movement.
- APAliza Pressman
[laughs] I am not a big fan, but I am, I think it's wonderful for the pendulum to get wild so that it can find a place in the middle, and I think that's what the gentle parenting movement has accomplished. I think it's just done a disservice because it can be very permissive. Like, do you really wanna hang out with those kids when they grow up? I don't know that you do.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- APAliza Pressman
And so I think it's something to just be mindful of, but if it works for you and your family, go for it. I just, my issue with the, the over sort of indulgence about feelings and intensity is that the very children that you are more likely to engage in this kind of parenting with have a differential susceptibility to permissiveness. And I know that some gentle parenting does have limits, some doesn't. Either way, it's not as good for that particular type of kid who are already going to have m- higher rates of anxiety and other internalizing tendencies from permissive parenting. And those are the kids that are getting it most. I do think that it's important that there are some kids for whom it's irrelevant whether they have gentle parents or not.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- APAliza Pressman
And there are some kids who are gonna, it, they're gonna do worse because of it.
- 22:19 – 25:42
Be a “mini scientist”: what research can’t guarantee and what it can warn against
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. A couple reactions. First one is I, I love your, your point that we shouldn't have parenting movements.
- APAliza Pressman
Yes.
- AGAdam Grant
Or at least we shouldn't belong to them and subscribe to them like they're ideologies.
- APAliza Pressman
Right.
- AGAdam Grant
I, I don't wanna overdo this, but I, I think a good, a huge part of parenting is, is being like a mini scientist and you're running little experiments to find out what works for you-
- APAliza Pressman
Yeah
- AGAdam Grant
... what works for each of your kids. And you're like, you find something that works for one and then it doesn't work for the next one.
- APAliza Pressman
Doesn't work for the other, exactly.
- AGAdam Grant
Or it works on one issue and not for the next issue, or at one life stage and not at a different phase.
- APAliza Pressman
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
And if you're n- if you're not consistently engaging in trial and error, you are not learning and improving as a parent.
- APAliza Pressman
L- hallelujah to all of that. It's totally true. And also, it's more interesting. Like, it's so much more authentic and fun to develop relationships that way.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. Although I don't, I don't think, I don't know a lot of parents who are aiming for interesting [laughs] as part of their relationship. Like, I think a lot of parents would settle for calm and boring.
- APAliza Pressman
I just spent the weekend with my older daughter and a bunch of her friends from college, and I was so delighted. Like, I was just like, I, I love sitting back and just feeling delighted by young people, and if we're n- if we're present and able to be in real authentic conversations with them, it's because we're not subscribing to something that we're, you know, convinced is one right way. Again-
- AGAdam Grant
Yes
- APAliza Pressman
... with, like, the broader, broader guardrails of warmth and sensitive with appropriate limits and boundaries.
- AGAdam Grant
Okay, so that, that also makes me think about something else that I was struck by. My casual read of parenting research is we can be more confident about what behaviors are problematic than what behaviors are beneficial, and I wonder if that's-
- APAliza Pressman
Yes
- AGAdam Grant
... if that's true or not.
- APAliza Pressman
You're absolutely right. We know much more about what is probably not great than we do about the exact details about what is going to be the best for our kids, with the caveat again that there are broad concepts that are pretty u- universally true, and s- but it's just that social science is tricky and, and this is social science meets biology meets neuroscience meets psychology. So I think nuance is important, and getting to know your kids is the nuance that we can't provide You know, in a conversation like this
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. No, I think that's right. And so just to, to gut check this, [laughs] don't be abusive. We can be confident that the following behaviors are abusive.
- APAliza Pressman
100% confident. That abuse, neglect, witnessing violence, you know, like there are certain things that are untreated mental illness. There are certain things that we know are not good for kids and very much in the category of toxic stressors.
- AGAdam Grant
Be caring. We have lower confidence about the exact behaviors that are gonna most effectively communicate care
- APAliza Pressman
Caring, loving, sensitive. How we define that is gonna look different in different families, different cultures, different ways of being, different temperaments. And we know that having guardrails of some kind is really important, but what those are need to align with your family and your values and what works for you and your kids. So overall, limits are great. Caring, sensitive, warm is great, but how you express it is gonna be so personalized.
- 25:42 – 27:00
Lightning round: worst advice, best advice, and dinner-party parent-child picks
- AGAdam Grant
Okay, so I wanna go to a lightning round now. You ready?
- APAliza Pressman
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
All right. I'm gonna, uh, actually, I'm gonna ask this in the context where it probably bothers you most.
- APAliza Pressman
Great. [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
What is the worst [laughs] what, what is the worst parenting advice that you consistently see on the internet today?
- APAliza Pressman
God, that's so mean. Um [laughs] one of them is like, "Love your kids, that's all that matters." It's not that it's not true, it's just that for some kids a little bit more than that matters, and sometimes because we love them, if that love translates to wanting to fix all their feelings and make sure that they're always happy, that it can actually be harmful.
- AGAdam Grant
Got it. Okay. Best parenting advice that we haven't covered in one sentence.
- APAliza Pressman
Stop optimizing for the future, and the future will be better for your kids.
- AGAdam Grant
Ooh, love it. Okay. I wanna imagine a dinner party, but it's a really unusual one. You get to invite parents and children together, uh, and the question is, like what are the mo- what are the parent-child relationships that you would most want to witness at that dinner party throughout human history?
- APAliza Pressman
Obviously Piaget and his kids, Piaget being the father of cognitive psychology because I think much of his studies were just looking at his kids and figuring stuff out. [laughs]
- 27:00 – 29:44
Orchids and dandelions: tailoring parenting—and the bridge to leadership
- AGAdam Grant
Okay. Next lightning question. What is something you've re-thought or changed your mind about with respect to parenting lately?
- APAliza Pressman
There is a piece of research that has completely changed my thinking, um, which is Thomas Boyce and Ellis and their orchid and dandelion research. This is the idea that some people have more reactive nervous systems, and therefore are going to either flourish in a positive environment or wither in a negative environment. We call them orchids because orchids are so hard to take care of, but when you do it right, they bloom beautifully. And on the flip side, dandelions are incredibly robust and can grow through the cracks of the sidewalk. They are not particularly plastic. They are incredibly resilient, which is awesome if things are great for them. If they came out of the womb great, they're probably gonna stay great. It's, it, it could be problematic in that they're not getting the full benefit of all the positive, amazing stuff that you might be doing because they're kinda gonna be who they're gonna be. And my sense is that we focus a lot on resilience as a concept at, that's so important, but I've started to come around to how beautiful plasticity is.
- AGAdam Grant
It's so interesting to reflect on this because I think about, I'm thinking about a conversation I had recently with, with Esther Perel about why I'm a bad manager.
- APAliza Pressman
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
And part of the problem is I just don't like holding people accountable because as somebody who probably fits more in the dandelion, the dandelion category, I, I don't get orchids at all. I wonder-
- APAliza Pressman
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Do you see similar dynamics parent-child? Like do dandelion parents really struggle with orchid kids?
- APAliza Pressman
Yes. I think they either over, you know, put them in a greenhouse and they're like, "I'm going to walk so, I'm gonna be so careful because they're so fragile. I don't wanna get it wrong." They might then super permissive, which of course ironically is not good for them. Or they're just like, "What are you t- this tag is not itchy. This, th- this sound is not annoying. Like just get your s- get your act together." And I think both of those are just sort of extreme reactions when you just don't know what to do with someone. It is interesting because you are raising them f- presumably to go into the workforce, so you don't want them to not be capable. You want them to work for Adam Grant and say, "I can handle this. It's not on Adam Grant to make it so that I am okay here. I have to figure out if this is a job that I want really badly, how do I adapt when it's hard for me?" And I think that's the, the real challenge.
- 29:44 – 34:05
Mini office hours: individualized leadership, and preparing kids for imperfect bosses
- AGAdam Grant
So that actually is a good segue to our mini office hours segment. Uh, I'm gonna give you the mic.
- APAliza Pressman
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
Do you have a, a puzzle or a question for me?
- APAliza Pressman
I do, and I didn't even know that this would segue so well, but it is in fact my curiosity in the workplace is how much is a manager meant to take into account different ways of being in designing how, you know, how things work to get the best out of everyone, and how much is the onus on the employee?
- AGAdam Grant
The, I mean, it, there's, there's almost nothing more fundamental to a manager's job than understanding the personality, values, traits of your people and then tailoring to them accordingly. Um, when Satya Nadella was on this show and I asked him, "What is management about?" He said, "A manager's job is to care." And [laughs] I don't need to tell you, you know better than I do, Aliza, that, uh, the, I mean the table stakes of caring is knowing the individual.
- APAliza Pressman
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
As opposed to treating them like they're interchangeable. I think that, I think so many leaders get this wrong. I cannot tell you how many leaders I've advised who start to describe their leadership style to me, and I, I have to bite my tongue so hard to let them finish before I say, "You should not have one leadership style." [laughs] Like, your style should be adapting to the needs of your followers, to, to your point, to bring out the best in them. And there's a whole body of research on this on what's called situational leadership theory, which, you know, which basically documents what you're describing, um, and shows that effective leaders are the people who figure out what the challenges and opportunities are in the situation, and then adjust their own behavior to meet it, as opposed to expecting their followers to always cater to them. Uh, in the, also in the transformational leadership literature, uh, this is kind of the, the charismatic, inspiring style of leadership that we love to put on a pedestal. One of the, one of the four key behaviors that has lots of support, um, as effective in that literature is individualized consideration, which is essentially I treat everybody as a different human. And just like parents are supposed [laughs] to know, we don't... Like, you find a style that works with one kid, and you don't immediately then rinse and repeat with your next children. Um, I think teams and employees are supposed to work the same way, but a lot of leaders don't realize that.
- APAliza Pressman
So good parenting. [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, in a nutshell. I mean, like, the class- one of the classic leadership models was structure and consideration are the two major factors. That sounds so similar to what you were describing earlier when, [laughs] when you were talking about the consideration part being sensitivity and the structure part being some element of high standards. What is that? That's called authoritative parenting, right?
- APAliza Pressman
It's authoritative parenting, yeah, and it's been around for decades as sort of best practices, but it sounds so aligned with what you're talking about. It makes so much sense. So given that, what do you think young people, like, going into the workforce, even though your ideal leader is what you're saying, fine, but let's say that's not what you're getting. At what point do you know, like, "Okay, I need to set myself up for success, and I don't do well in this environment"? And also, it's not all about you, and you have to-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah
- APAliza Pressman
... sometimes just suck it up. And, like, what is the balance as you're kind of launching people into the world?
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs] I think my, my best advice on this, if you're a young person who has a boss who does not do individualized consideration well, is you go to your boss and say, "Hey, I realize there are a couple things about me that I probably should've shared that would help you get the best out of me. And that's on me, and I'm a little late coming to this party, but here's what I wanted to put on the table, just so you know." That can't be a brain dump, right? It has to be a, a nugget or two. You know, it should be a little clue, a hint that makes them curious about, "Huh, I didn't know that. I wonder if that's why you reacted so poorly when I gave you feedback in this situation, but so well when I gave it in this situation. And I can use that to actually get the results I want." Like, that, that's a win for me as a leader, and you wanna make this a win.
- APAliza Pressman
I love that.
- 34:05 – 35:00
The job of a parent: raising worthy humans and keeping the relationship
- AGAdam Grant
So Aliza, as we wrap up, I have to ask you this. We've... I mean, we're talking about jobs. Parenting is a job. You don't-
- APAliza Pressman
Mm-hmm
- AGAdam Grant
... usually get paid for it.
- APAliza Pressman
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
And you are never given a job description or, or really hired for it most of the time. But what do you think the job of a parent is?
- APAliza Pressman
To raise human beings that feel worthy for who they are, not the splendor of their accomplishments, and who, who figure out a way to, to be in the world and contribute in the world in some way. And also to have a good relationship with them. [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Beautifully put. Well, I think you, you are just masterful at taking knowledge about parenting that's collecting dust in academic journals and making it-
- APAliza Pressman
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
... accessible to all of us, and we need more of that.
- APAliza Pressman
Thank you. [upbeat music]
Episode duration: 35:09
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