Re:Thinking with Adam GrantThe science of ice plunges with Chris Ballard | ReThinking
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
35 min read · 7,475 words- 0:00 – 2:24
Cold that feels like fire: setting the scene in an icy Vermont lake
- CBChris Ballard
This was in February in Vermont, and they had taken the frozen surface of Lake Memphremagog, giant glacial lake up there, and every winter they carve out a swimming pool with chainsaws out of this lake, and they hold a swimming race. And that experience was so cold, I had heard this prior to going in, that you actually can't necessarily discern between heat and cold. It could feel-
- AGAdam Grant
Mm-hmm
- CBChris Ballard
... like fire. [upbeat music]
- AGAdam Grant
Okay, so the place I wanna begin is I am no stranger to uncomfortable experiences. I seek them out for a living. It's almost a personal hobby. [laughs] It's, it's how I grow. But I hate the cold. I don't know if there's a sensation that bothers me more than cold. Like c- to me, cold is pain. Can you change my mind?
- CBChris Ballard
In your case, I probably wouldn't try to. This was one of the things-
- AGAdam Grant
Really?
- CBChris Ballard
... I, I, yeah, one of the things I found interesting about reporting and writing this book was there's people who find this, like trying a jalapeno pepper or whatever it might be, right? They, they find it something they might wanna try, and afterwards they're like, "I'm sorta glad that I did that." And there's people where the dread and apprehension of the experience itself overwhelms any positive reaction you get on the back end. And so when, you know, for just for recovery, which is one of the things people use it for, NBA trainers told me, "Look, there's a lot of players, you know, Steph Curry on the Warriors, Draymond Green on the Warriors, who find this helpful, and they will look forward to it." And that's the eustress, obviously. And then there are players, in this case like Andrew Wiggins and Kevon Looney, who just fear it so much that any positive benefit they get on the back end is outweighed by the negative emotional stress on the front end. So maybe this just isn't a thing for you.
- AGAdam Grant
Well, I don't, I don't know if I'm, I'm quite ready to land there yet, because you make a persuasive case that we should all be embracing the cold a little bit more than we might instinctively [laughs] be inclined to.
- CBChris Ballard
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
But, you know, at minimum, I, I actually don't struggle with the fear part, it's just the sensation of it that I can't stand. So, you know, I think about in my springboard diving days, the, [laughs] like, the, the early morning practices where, you know, the, the pool wasn't heated, or we were training outdoors. We'd have to just do a first dive cold, literally, and hit the water and it's, you know, 55 or 60 degrees, and I would rather touch a hot stove. [laughs] I would rather be punched in the face.
- CBChris Ballard
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Can you help me understand why that is, and what, what is different about people who seem to like the cold?
- 2:24 – 4:02
Warmies vs. coldies: why some people hate cold and others crave it
- CBChris Ballard
So one of the thermal physiologists I spoke to, he said essentially we're divided into what he called warmies and coldies.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- CBChris Ballard
And if you, if you, like, physically shake someone's hand, you will often feel the difference. Someone might have a cold hand usually versus someone who's got a very warm handshake. This is a genetic component. And this also affects how we deal with cold. You know, some people like to have the heat on, they like to keep it quite warm in their house, and other people are fine going outside in winter wearing shorts, right? So there's definitely a genetic component to it. There's also a learned element, and this is, for me, I came into this from the outside. I was not a cold person. I literally own a hot tub, right? [laughs] This was not something that I would've naturally been drawn to. And so there was a lot of, "This is terrible. This is terrible," and your body acclimates so quickly. Usually within about a week of cold exposure, you get through the part of it that is unpleasant and you get to the rewards a lot quicker. So there is a learned element to it.
- AGAdam Grant
Okay, so if that's true, why is it the case that after being married for more than 20 years to my wife Allison, when she turns the thermostat down to 60 degrees at bedtime, I still freeze. I still shiver every night. Like, isn't, isn't that two decades of cold exposure? Shouldn't I be acclimated by now?
- CBChris Ballard
Theoretically, yes. But also looking at it, you may have pretty low body fat, right? So there's a lot of reasons why you're gonna react to the cold differently. Your circulation system might be different than some people's. So there are, like, physiological reasons, and then there's mental reasons. Sounds like yours are probably physiological.
- AGAdam Grant
So interesting. Okay, so the next time somebody calls me a wimp for not liking the cold, I'm gonna say, "Actually, I'm just in better shape than you are."
- CBChris Ballard
There you go.
- AGAdam Grant
All right, so let's-
- CBChris Ballard
[laughs]
- 4:02 – 5:12
From curiosity to commitment: why Ballard entered the cold-plunge world
- AGAdam Grant
No pun intended, let's dive into your experience. I would love to hear about how you got into the plunge, and about the coldest place you have gone swimming.
- CBChris Ballard
Mm. So professionally as a writer, I've always been interested in these little subcultures, and especially people who are really passionate about things that maybe to the rest of the world don't seem like natural things to be doing. So I was drawn to this world. It's a subculture. There's fascinating characters. And if you're gonna expose yourself to the temperatures that these people are doing for the duration that they're doing, there's nothing performative about it. It's an authentic experience. And so I was also curious what they found on the other side of that, like why and how they did it, right? And then what they learned from it. So as a writer, I was drawn to it, and then personally it happened to align with a point in my life where I had hit the end of the road as an athlete myself. I'd been a college athlete, low-level college athlete, and I had a hip replacement at 40, and I had this long period of recovery, and I recognized that I had tied so much of myself to sports, and in particular basketball for me. So it was my identity, you know, my, uh, stress release, my camaraderie, my community was tied
- 5:12 – 6:44
The coldest swim and the psychology of dread
- CBChris Ballard
to this. And you s- you know, stolid away, and I realized, like, I need to get back on the court. But also longer term, finding a pivot. So this appealed to me originally as a way to recover and get back on the court faster. That was that NBA connection of an NBA trainer telling me, "You know, this is what the guys in the league are doing." So I was like, "Sure, I'm game if they're game." Uh, so that would be, that would be the impetus. And then as far as the coldest, that would be in Vermont, and this was in Lake Memphremagog. And this was a thing that, talk about my apprehension and my dread, [laughs] I had worried about the most, 'cause the temperature some years gets down to about 32 degrees. The year I was there was around 33 degrees. And you are, you know, stepping in a, a wooden ladder, and you're swimming some cases down and back, sometimes just down. And that experience was so cold, it could feel-
- AGAdam Grant
Mm-hmm
- CBChris Ballard
... like fire. And I found that to be a fascinating experience in the moment, but prior to it, there was just so much apprehension.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. No, I, I can relate to the feeling of, of cold fire from skiing in Switzerland when it was, like, below zero f- ... Fahrenheit, and it just, it feels like your, your fingers and toes are burning even though they're actually freezing.
- CBChris Ballard
Yes.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- CBChris Ballard
And, and that experience is part of what some of these people chase, is getting to that point where you've almost scrambled all your body's signals, and so there's a, a certainly a sense of you are fully in the moment. You are fully present because your body has no idea what's going on.
- 6:44 – 8:45
Why people do it: extreme challenge, community bonding, and mental health
- AGAdam Grant
Okay, the inevitable question. Why? [laughs] Why would anyone subject themselves to that?
- CBChris Ballard
Various reasons. I think of the, the ice swimmers, which is swimming in 41-degree water or lower, and this, these are people who are really serious about it, who commit to it, who will do it through the winter wherever they are. With them, there was a, a sort of a Venn diagram of people who really liked extreme challenges. These are the same people who might be drawn to an ultramarathon, to a triathlon, and here was something wherein if you said to them, "You know, only 500 people in the world have done this thing," they're like, "Yeah, I want, I wanna do that thing." So the Ice Mile is the, the very tip-top of this, where you swim, you know, a mile in 41-degree lower water. Very challenging. The, the founder of it says sort of it's something that exists between impossible and possible, right? More people fail than succeed. So that is a huge lure to some of these people. So there was some of that. Then there was some where this was a community element, and that was the strongest thing I saw, where it was a group of people and you went and did this hard thing together on a Sunday morning, whatever it might be, and there was this, they call it peer positive pressure, right? So they're all gonna be there at 9:00. I'm in my bed at 7:00 AM. I don't really wanna get up, but I'm gonna go down there, and we're gonna do this relatively efficient hard thing. I'm not gonna go run a marathon. I'm gonna go in for five minutes, and then I'm gonna feel this immediate bond with people afterwards, and part of that is the neurochemicals shooting into you, right? And part of it is what some of the people, uh, in the book referred to as essentially like a shared crisis. You both survived this five minutes in the cold water together, and you are now bonded immediately. And often it can be strangers. So you'll see that element of it. And the third would be for mental health, and th- these are people who are looking for a way to create a, a moment of stillness and a moment of silence in their life, and that will last, and maybe it's only a short period, but there is a value to that that people are finding. It's a feeling of, "Here's something I can do that reliably makes me feel good about myself and reliably makes me feel good about the people I'm doing it with." That seemed to be a very strong theme.
- 8:45 – 10:13
Mastery in the cold: what makes ice swimming a unique performance problem
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. Okay. When I think about these people who seek out challenges, they, they actually do come in three flavors. Uh, there are people who are pursuing achievement. It's a performance challenge for them. There are people who are trying to prove something to others. It's image related, and they really wanna post about it afterward. And then there are people who are just seeking intrinsic mastery. They want to excel at something, and they, they wanna get as good as they can. They wanna become experts, which is less about the outcome and more about the process. They like the experience of getting better every day. What is that about? What is the draw of the cold?
- CBChris Ballard
So I think it's because of the immediate physiological effect that occurs. So the external environment immediately starts changing your body, and I've seen this with people who have gone from pool swimming to open water swimming to ice swimming. It's this whole new set of challenges. So immediately the blood is going away from your extremities, and so it's gonna become harder. At a certain point, ice swimmers get, like, a claw hand where they can't really feel the water anymore, and s- then your, your back end is gonna start sinking. And so there's all these physiological elements that you are fighting at the same time that you're dealing with, oh, my swim stroke. Am I sighting well in the water? Uh, how is my engine, my VO2 max? Those are the normal endurance things. I, I think that's what draws some people to this, is that it's a totally different challenge than you can find, I suppose, like, if you're climbing Everest, right? If you're gonna find another environmental aspect like that. I found that to be, personally, one of the most interesting elements of doing it myself.
- 10:13 – 11:49
Can you train superhuman cold tolerance? The limits of the evidence
- AGAdam Grant
I know that at least a subset of people are, are kind of drawn to the idea that they're re-engineering their bodies, and this, this is a bit of the acclimation that you were speaking to earlier. But I'm thinking of the extreme examples. I, I remember about a decade ago first meeting Lewis Pugh. He swam the highest lake on Everest, uh, and also the North Pole. Uh, yeah, I remember, I remember asking Lewis, "How do you do this?" And he explained to me that he had this anticipatory thermogenesis where he'd classically conditioned himself to the point where, um, right before a race, his body would just naturally start to heat up two or three degrees, and that, that gave him the capacity to sustain a level of cold that most people couldn't. And I looked at that and I thought, "Okay. I can see the appeal of basically becoming a frog." [laughs] That's what Lewis is doing.
- CBChris Ballard
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
How many other people can do this? Can you actually train yourself to do it? Is he a, a genetic or physiological freak, or is it actually learnable?
- CBChris Ballard
Well, the people that have been studied for it are the people that are essentially already doing it, if that makes sense. So Lynne Cox, who's generally considered one of the greatest open water and cold water swimmers ever, you know, at 15 she set the English Channel record, male or female. She swam from, uh, Alaska to Russia. So remarkable. She was studied by scientists. She could do it as well. But it's one of those things where, you know, they haven't studied the rest of us, whether we could actually gain this. Uh, Ram Barkai, he's the founder of the International Ice Swimming Association, also been studied in this realm. So you gotta, it's sort of like, you know, the cart and the horse situation. I would be curious. I don't know. I certainly have not, through three years of doing this, [laughs] created the ability to warm myself up ahead of time. That would be a fun little superpower to gain, though.
- AGAdam Grant
It would be.
- CBChris Ballard
Yeah.
- 11:49 – 14:16
Ballard’s results: heart metrics, emotional regulation, and daily ‘tests’
- AGAdam Grant
So what, what has it done for you? Talk to me about the, the effects that you've experienced, how they square up with the, with the science, and where you've landed on, "Should I learn to cold plunge at least? E- even if I'm not gonna be an ice swimmer," which I don't plan on.
- CBChris Ballard
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Is there a case that this is, this is gonna enrich my health or my life or my performance in some way?
- CBChris Ballard
I came in skeptical, I should start with that, as an outside journalist who'd never really even been a swimmer. But it's also worth me noting to people that I started the mo- way most people do, which is, like, cold showers, right? And then I moved on to cold plunges, and then I moved on to swimming in the bay here in San Francisco, which might be, like, 55 degrees. So it's sort of a gradual process to the point where I was doing lower temperatures and then competing in some of these ice swimming competitions. So this is definitely not the arc that someone who just, you know, occasionally cold plunges is gonna follow. So that, with that said, doing it for a couple years, I found these physiological changes for me, one of which was that my resting heart rate got really low. To the point where right before the, going to the world championships when I competed there, they measured it at 39, and, and that triggered a, a visit to cardiology, except that I told them, A, I've been doing a lot of endurance sports, and B, I've been doing all this cold exposure. And then so they, it's like, "Okay, that, that makes sense." So one, the resting heart rate, which makes sense if you're doing, you know, a, a fair amount of cold exposure. Elite athletes often get down low. Two, you know, heart rate variability went up, which is generally a good thing. But more, you know, I think more personally what I found was I had hit a point in my life, midlife, I think like a lot of us maybe do, you know, you have kids and you get set in your ways, and I think I'd essentially underestimated myself. And so I went into this being like, "There's no way I could do this." And it turned out to be not as hard as I expected, or as I'd feared, I suppose. So that led me to bleed over into other areas of my life where my emotional regulation is better. If I'm on like an eight-hour flight now and [laughs] there's a, there's a kid screaming in the row behind, I feel better suited for that. The peaks and valleys have leveled out a bit. And, you know, is that the cold or is that the process of continually having to manage it? Which could, maybe you could get that through meditation, right?
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- CBChris Ballard
That's what I found to be most interesting, was the, it was the, all these little tests that I took. Like every day I was taking a test, and, and I was passing every day 'cause that test was two minutes in my cold plunge, but I never looked forward to the test. But just the process of continuing to take them, I think is what has been most impactful.
- 14:16 – 15:45
From ‘not very good’ to world championships: how ice swimming’s small talent pool works
- AGAdam Grant
This is the point where I need to call you out on a contradiction between what you just said and what you were commenting on earlier, which is you said, "I became a competitive ice swimmer, and I didn't do it very well." And now you're telling me you were at the world championships.
- CBChris Ballard
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Those two things do not compute. Can you please own up to how good you got?
- CBChris Ballard
Well, one of the great things about a sport like ice swimming is that the pool of ice swimmers is relatively small, Adam.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- CBChris Ballard
So if I, if I were to be going against my age group swimmers in, in the United States, I, I would be far, the bottom end of like recreational swimmer. I mean, not, maybe I'm overstating a bit, but if you go in the pool of ice swimmers, so all these, all these elite swimmers, do you wanna get in that cold water? The answer is usually no. You know, what's the payoff for me, right? Now, there's a handful that have done it, so there were current Olympian and past Olympians at these world championships. But as far as the US national team, like if you're a decent swimmer and you would show up at the national championship and you were willing to be part of this, they're like, "Come on in." And there's age groups, which is great if you're a little older in life. So you could get a medal in the 50 to 55 and the 40 to 45, whatever it is, and that counts just as much at these world championships as an overall medal. So I was able to end up qualifying for the US national team, which was amazing. That's the only national team I'm ever qualifying for.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- CBChris Ballard
And go over there and be part of this experience, and more so as a fly on the wall. Uh, but I got to race, and that was fantastic.
- 15:45 – 17:21
Could ice swimming be Olympic? TV spectacle vs. safety constraints
- AGAdam Grant
It's amazing. Congratulations. Can we make a case for ice swimming as a Winter Olympic sport?
- CBChris Ballard
Yeah, so a case can be made, and the case is this: that number one, it would be great on TV. So if you think about what does great ratings at the Summer Olympics-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah
- CBChris Ballard
... it's swimming. Now you add swimming, but it's outdoors. There is snow all around. Maybe you've dropped the pool into an actual alpine lake. You got mountains. You can see the breadth of the competitors, right? And then you've got this sideline correspondent who is forced to go down to the pool and report back about the temperature, what it feels like. And then maybe-
- AGAdam Grant
And is wearing a giant parka.
- CBChris Ballard
[laughs] Yes, exactly.
- AGAdam Grant
And gloves and-
- CBChris Ballard
Yeah
- AGAdam Grant
... a face mask.
- CBChris Ballard
And hurries to and fro. And then you have elite competitors. And then finally, you gotta make sure it's safe, and this is something that the ice swimming crew has spent a lot of time on, and they got to the point where at the world championships there were no injuries, and that's largely because no one's in the water long enough to actually get hypothermic in these events. And so-
- AGAdam Grant
How long is that?
- CBChris Ballard
So for most people, that's gonna be a, mild hypothermia might kick in by 30 minutes. I mean, in hours when you're really worried about. And the cutoff at most of these events is 20 minutes. And these are also elite swimmers, so there's no one who's swimming it super slow.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, this, this is a little reassuring, 'cause I was starting to think, [laughs] you know what's not good TV? When you see an athlete turn blue, and then-
- CBChris Ballard
Yes
- AGAdam Grant
... start to turn into an icicle. No. I don't wanna watch that.
- CBChris Ballard
No. I think it's the, it's sort of like, uh, big wave surfing, where the threat of danger is part of the appeal for people, uh, from a viewing standpoint, I would say.
- 17:21 – 19:21
Cold as exposure therapy: action builds confidence
- AGAdam Grant
You know, Chris, I wanna come back to what you were alluding to with, you know, just feeling like you were more capable of, of just confronting challenges in your day. I think this is obviously bigger than, than cold. I remember years ago when, when [laughs] I was doing work on productivity and procrastination, I got a lot of questions about h- how is it not hard for you to, to, you know, sit down and like tackle writing a book? I just, I, I had a hard time following the question, 'cause I'm thinking there's nothing that I've ever done in my job that compares in degree of difficulty to even jumping off a 10-meter platform, for me. I was afraid of heights. I'm still afraid of heights, actually. And, like I, I forced myself to learn to flip and twist. I had to, [laughs] I had to go day in and day out and force myself, you know, two hours every day, um, to do things that I was terrified of. I will write, I will write a book every year before I even have to do one back takeoff on a 10-meter platform. [laughs] Not even close. And it sounds like you're describing having experienced a version of that.
- CBChris Ballard
Yeah, I, I mean, I mentioned you basically put yourself through exposure therapy, right?
- AGAdam Grant
Exactly.
- CBChris Ballard
Yeah. Which is wonderful, and most of us don't opt into that. And so in my case, I'll be honest, I would not have opted into this if I weren't gonna write a whole book about it.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- CBChris Ballard
I might have been interested in it, but part of it was like, "I know I have to do this today." To bring it back to you for a second, Adam, there was a great point you made about your diving career, which I heard you on, actually on Oprah's podcast, and you talked about that moment when you were afraid of heights and you're on the board, and you're there for 45 minutes and you're shaking, and you're up there, and finally your coach is like, you know, "Are you gonna, are you gonna go in?" And you mentioned that that was the trigger for you to realize that it is not the confidence that leads to action, it is the action that leads to confidence. And I think that's exactly what you find in this world, is that you just gotta do it. And then the more you do it ... the more s- the more strongly you feel you could do it again.
- AGAdam Grant
Well, I can't disagree with you using my own experience-
- CBChris Ballard
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs] to, to make your point. Well played, Chris. Well played.
- CBChris Ballard
[laughs]
- 19:21 – 21:01
Separating hype from science: what cold plunging reliably does (and doesn’t)
- AGAdam Grant
I've seen a lot of posts on social media, and also, you know, encouragement from my friend Michael, who's very into cold plunging. It seems like it's become a fitness fad. It's become sort of a health fad. Is cold plunging actually good for us?
- CBChris Ballard
Yeah, that is the key question. Yes, but not in all the ways that you probably have heard on social media, would be my overarching answer. And I, I... The most frustrating part of reporting the book is you go to experts usually when you write a narrative nonfiction story, and the experts answer the questions for you, and there is just a lack of deep, rigorous research in this world. You know, we can't really track all these claims yet, and that's frustrating, 'cause you wanna be able to. And so I'd say there's four things that I would confidently say you would get out of cold plunging. You know, the first is some level of athletic recovery. This has been shown. It's not great. It's not a magic bullet. But you're gonna get it, and especially for, for soreness. Second would be the immediate mood boost, which can last up to a couple hours, and that makes sense, 'cause your body's going into fight or flight, and then you get, you know, dopamine and noradrenaline, all these neurochemicals flood you. That is combined with the fact that if you stay in at least 90 seconds, you will become weirdly calm, because that fight or flight goes away, and now your body's trying to preserve. It's, you know, lowering your heart rate, so you get this interesting state of being alert and calm, and we've seen studies around this. The resilience, which is what we spoke about, and then finally, the mental health, which most of the studies around have been experiential. And you could also argue how much of that's community, how much of that's being outside, and how much of it-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah
- CBChris Ballard
... is actually the cold water, and how much is swimming. Uh, so that's the interesting stuff to me.
- 21:01 – 25:03
Practical protocol: cold showers, social plunges, timing, and the peak-end tradeoff
- AGAdam Grant
If you were to try to get really prescriptive, based on everything you've learned, what's the optimal regimen? Are you saying, "Okay, do a four-minute cold shower after a workout three times a week?" [laughs] Like, what would you boil this down to?
- CBChris Ballard
Uh, this also comes-
- AGAdam Grant
And I know, I know by the way, I know this is a hard question to answer and there's a ton of nuance, but-
- CBChris Ballard
Yeah
- AGAdam Grant
... you have, I think, done the most thorough, thorough investigation of this topic that has existed in human history, so who better to ask than you?
- CBChris Ballard
[laughs] Yes. Well, thank you, Adam. So if you're looking for just, like, a time-saving way to do this, cold shower is great. That's the easiest entry. You'll get a little boost. You move on with your day. That's great. But ideally what you do is you do this with other people. So I would say that my number one thing would be like, find some friends, go to some outdoor place together. It doesn't have to be super cold, 60 degrees or lower. Go in, hang out together afterwards. You'll have a lot of positive associations about the experience in addition to any health benefits that accrue. Otherwise, we just don't have enough data to know how often you need to do it and how much, and I, I could say anecdotally from the people I know that the people who swim in the winter tend to go seek it out in the summer. They miss it.
- AGAdam Grant
Okay, and if I don't wanna do that because my distaste for wasting time exceeds my distaste-
- CBChris Ballard
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
... for the cold, how long is the cold shower, and how often?
- CBChris Ballard
So you could, you could use it strategically, right? I'm feeling stressed. Today I've got a big day. I'm a little nervous this morning. Instead of going hot, I'll go cold, or even, like, half the shower cold. That'll do it. You'll come out feeling different than you would've if you'd stayed in hot the whole time. So deploy it strategically. So if you did it two or three times a week and you did it-
- AGAdam Grant
Mm
- CBChris Ballard
... for, you know, 90 seconds, um, you're probably gonna see some of these benefits. You know, the, the James Bond shower that he did in the books, which is you start hot and then you just end on cold.
- AGAdam Grant
The order is counterintuitive to me. Like, I, I think about, like, okay, if I have to do this, I'm getting the cold out of the way, and then the hot shower is a reward for it. Why do you want me to go the other way?
- CBChris Ballard
I've found, and most people find, that if you come out last in the heat, you're not energetic. You know, often it's almost like if you wanted to, to go to bed, you'd take a hot bath. There's that feeling. What the cold does-
- AGAdam Grant
Mm-hmm
- CBChris Ballard
... is it fires you up. You're juiced. You're ready to go. You have the dopamine on board. You have the, you know, the adrenaline on board. So for work productivity for me, if I do cold plunge, I do caffeine, you know, ahead of time, cold plunge, and then go right into two hours of deep focus work in the morning, that's my most productive time.
- AGAdam Grant
Wow.
- CBChris Ballard
Because you don't wanna waste all those neurochemicals.
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, okay, that makes sense, but it's also a violation of Danny Kahneman's peak-end rule. [laughs] I do not wanna land on the, the most painful part of the cold-
- CBChris Ballard
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
... because then I'm gonna remember how much that sucked and not wanna do it tomorrow. So it sounds like there's a trade-off between what's good for me today and what mo- might motivate me to sustain the routine tomorrow.
- CBChris Ballard
And it also, the experience of the cold, for most people at least, you may be an outlier, right? The experience of the cold is not pleasant, but the 5, 10, 15, 20, 30 minutes after is pleasant. Once, and unless you're getting really cold and actually are shivering it out and there's a significant rewarm, yeah, the moment you get out of there, you feel good and the, the hard part is over. And, you know, hopefully your brain can latch on to whatever those-
- AGAdam Grant
To that
- CBChris Ballard
... 30 minutes were when you knocked out 15 tasks.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs] Okay, this is an interesting question for peak-end research. Can we essentially move the goalposts on where the end is and redefine it as, yeah, this isn't over until I'm 15 minutes post-cold?
- CBChris Ballard
I mean, I guess if you, obviously you know this world better than I do, but a question for you perhaps, like, let's say some- someone really enjoys drinking alcohol, and the, the peak is a very high peak at the moment where they're most enjoying it, but the after effects can be a terrible hangover. I think which one you remember probably determines whether you're gonna do that again.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, I think which one you remember coupled with your, [laughs] your self-control strategies for getting your should self to override your want s- self or outsmart your want self.
- CBChris Ballard
Isn't that, like, the everyday challenge that, that we all face, right?
- 25:03 – 28:12
Office Hours: Adam on interviewing—why under-preparing can yield better questions
- AGAdam Grant
It's one of the fundamental dilemmas of life. That is actually a great segue, Chris, to Office Hours segment. So give you the mic. What's your question for me?
- CBChris Ballard
So I actually have a couple. So the, the first one I'm curious about is, as a writer myself, I find your interview questions really interesting, and I'm curious what the process of becoming an interviewer and doing all those interviews has taught you, not only about yourself, but what have you applied more widely in life and work?
- AGAdam Grant
Ooh. Well, thank you, first of all. Secondly, I think probably the thing that surprised me most is I often ask better questions when I'm less prepared.
- CBChris Ballard
Huh.
- AGAdam Grant
'Cause what happens is, like I'm ... You can probably tell I'm hyper-conscientious, and like I like to set a goal and then make a plan for how to achieve it, and then follow the plan. And what that means is I'm at risk for coming into a conversation, having a script and an agenda, and then kind of locking into it. Whereas like the best questions stem from in-the-moment curiosity. And I think riffing on that is like one of my favorite aspects of, of being a podcaster, right? Is I get to, I get to learn about things that I didn't even know that I was gonna want to know about. And I think the, the ability to think out loud in this medium is different from any other form of communication we do. You can't do it in a book. You can't do it in an article. And so this is, you know, I think this is much more freeform, and so I, I have actually learned in some cases to under-prepare. I was just talking with our producer Jessica about this, where, you know, normally we'll, we'll create a script of questions, and I've noticed when I do live podcasts, um, I have a list, but I, I rarely look at it because I'm so attuned to what the audience is responding to. And also, you know, my reaction is a proxy for what the audience is gonna respond to, and those are often my favorite conversations. And so, uh, my best questions come from what is the burning question in the moment? And that, that's been a reconfiguration for me of, of how I instinctively work. Did that answer your question?
- CBChris Ballard
That's a great answer, because I think we always talk about, you know, fail to prepare, prepare to fail, but there's that point where if you're so locked in on what your in- initial goals were, you're missing those opportunities along the way.
- AGAdam Grant
Absolutely. And, you know, for me, it's actually better in some cases, I don't wanna go into an interview having not read your book, but I also don't wanna come in having read it yesterday because then everything I ask you about is basically me choreographing... It's like, it's like you're an actor, and I'm your director. I'm like, "Here, Chris, I have a line for you. Can you recite it as perfectly as possible?"
- CBChris Ballard
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
And then I'm gonna pretend to be surprised by it for the audience's benefit. Whereas, you know, I, I think I probably read The Plunge, I don't know, was it two, three months ago. What stuck for me are, you know, a f- a few of the stories and a few of the, you know, unexpected insights and a little bit of your personal journey, and I feel like I know just enough at this point to ask about it in ways that I'm gonna be delighted the same way the audience is-
- CBChris Ballard
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
... as opposed to going through the motions with you. So that, I think there is such a thing as over-preparing or, or maybe we at least need a lag between our, our preparation and our performance.
- CBChris Ballard
I love the lag idea. That's great.
- AGAdam Grant
I mean, it does ne- it does mean you need to be really on top of things, though, [laughs] to, to do the prep well in advance.
- CBChris Ballard
Yeah. I may not give that advice to my teenage daughters quite yet, but eventually down the line perhaps.
- AGAdam Grant
What was your other question?
- 28:12 – 34:32
Office Hours + lightning round: endurance from adversity, elite-performance lessons, and a final pitch
- CBChris Ballard
So one of the, uh, older swimmers in the book had this theory about older athletes, and was that, uh, essentially, the more hard things you go through in life, whether it's, you know, losing a job, a divorce, you know, loss of a loved one, whatever it might be, you build this endurance brain. And so his theory was some of the reasons that older athletes succeed in especially endurance sports is because they have built up this endurance brain. Essentially, the more hard stuff you do, the better you are at doing hard stuff when it comes to sports. And I was curious via research if that's something that shows up in other areas of life as well.
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, that's, that's a really intriguing question. So I think the answer is a qualified yes. I think we can say with good confidence that the more experience people have, not just facing adversity, but overcoming it, the easier it is then for them to power through the next challenge that they're facing. But sometimes they have to be reminded of that capacity. So my colleague Sameer Noor Mohamed led some research on this that I thought was, was very clever, uh, taking people in the job search who were really struggling to, to find a job, and having them write a narrative about not just previous difficulties they'd faced, but previous difficulties they'd overcome. And what he was doing was he was putting them in an underdog mindset, but reminding them, "Hey, like I've done this before. I can do it again." And that boosted their, you know, their effort in the job search and ultimately increased their likelihood of, of finding work. And I think this is, yeah, it's an Am- it's an American story, right? [chuckles] It's like, "It's been David against Goliath, and I have beaten the odds before, and that means I can do it again." And I think that's a form of conditioning. And, and over time, I would guess, I haven't seen data for this, but I would guess that you need to be prompted less. It becomes part of your identity. I am, I am a resilient person. I am someone who faces and, you know, surmounts obstacles. And so whatever you throw at me, I got this.
- CBChris Ballard
That is great. And I love the i- the idea of writing it down as well. We've seen the way that writing imprints a little better. I'm sure verbalizing might have some of that effect as well.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. You and I are both biased on that one, though, as, as people who love the written word.
- CBChris Ballard
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Uh, yeah, it's hard to argue with the power of forming a story and also getting the thoughts out of your head and, and seeing them staring right back at you. So are you ready for the lightning round?
- CBChris Ballard
Let's do it.
- AGAdam Grant
Okay. So this whole lightning round is geared around the [laughs] like extensive time you've spent studying elite performers, especially elite athletes. First question is, what is the worst advice that you see people give regularly for achieving and s- and sustaining excellence?
- CBChris Ballard
I think it's mastery at the expense of other aspects. When you see athletes who focus on mastery too early, and cer- and certainly when the outside world encourage them to do that, and they don't build, you know, as Dave Epstein would say, the range around it, that usually doesn't lead to the same kind of outcome as if someone had other elements.
- AGAdam Grant
Hard to argue with that one. Okay, good. What about the best non-obvious advice for becoming elite at your craft?
- CBChris Ballard
I think it would be homework. And by that, I mean like the, in the NBA, the players I saw Who had spent the most time looking back over their past performance, who had the best recollection. Like LeBron James has got a remarkable memory for past games. And you saw this again and again. Kobe Bryant was a total basketball nerd. The people who not only did the thing, but studied the thing, studied who came before.
- AGAdam Grant
I have such a chicken and egg question about that, which is, is it the actual studying or is it the passion that led them to do the studying that ultimately propelled them? And I, I would assume it's a combination of the two.
- CBChris Ballard
Right, 'cause you, if you're not passionate about it, it's not interesting to you, and so there's not the incentive to study. And so unless you're forced to do it, you're not gonna do it.
- AGAdam Grant
All right. You get to organize your dream dinner party of people who are gonna help you understand what it takes to reach our potential. Who are you inviting, living or dead?
- CBChris Ballard
To reach our potential. I would, I would probably start with one person who's gonna bring, uh, a humanist approach, maybe George Saunders, uh, someone I've always felt understood us in a way that the rest of us don't. I might bring Steph Curry because I feel like he's reached greatness without sacrificing the parts of it that we often expect others to sacrifice. Maybe I'd bring Shackleton. That would be interesting if, if I can do that [laughs] . Uh, and then probably someone in the research realm who could take a 30,000 view of this and study it. Um, uh, whoever that might be would be the, the top researcher in the field.
- AGAdam Grant
Interesting group. I would like to try to get invited to that dinner.
- CBChris Ballard
Yes, you would be a good one [laughs] .
- AGAdam Grant
Uh, we'll see. Um, what is something you've rethought or changed your mind about lately?
- CBChris Ballard
I think the limits that we find as we get older. I think, uh, there's a, there's a fair amount of expectation that as we hit a certain age, there are certain things that are, that are not available to us anymore. And I've ... The process of reporting this book, the process of reporting stories I've done recently have shown me that really it's just sort of like, you know, wa- rather than going through something, it's like water around a rock. And I feel like that is, it's a great thing to find in midlife.
- AGAdam Grant
Okay, last question for you. You declined the opportunity to persuade me to embrace the cold.
- CBChris Ballard
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
I asked you to rethink your resistance to asking me to think again. Now that you've, you know, you've heard me-
- CBChris Ballard
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
... complain about the cold a little bit and you know more about my psyche than you did coming in, you get one sentence to convince me that I should make cold immersion part of my routine. What's your pitch?
- CBChris Ballard
You'll be happy you did it.
- AGAdam Grant
Wow. Now I, I'm, I'm just noticing you didn't say, "I'll be happy while I'm doing it" [laughs] .
- CBChris Ballard
No. No. No.
- AGAdam Grant
This is like reading a classic.
- CBChris Ballard
No. This is something that was told to me early in the process, and I was skeptical as well. And the, the other side of that bridge, you don't know how to get there and you don't know what's there, but when you get there, you eventually realize, "Okay, I'm glad I did that thing."
- AGAdam Grant
Well, as someone who likes both achievement and mastery, that is a very compelling argument to make. 'Cause I, I look at that and I think, "Okay, you've just reframed this as a challenge for me. Why, why is it so hard for me? And, like, what's the last time I backed down from a challenge? I can do this. I'll be perfect."
Episode duration: 34:43
Install uListen for AI-powered chat & search across the full episode — Get Full Transcript
Transcript of episode zvnZM22pGRs
