Re:Thinking with Adam GrantThe secret skills behind mind reading with Oz Pearlman | ReThinking with Adam Grant
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
35 min read · 6,651 words- 0:00 – 0:42
Can you actually read minds? Why people want to believe
- AGAdam Grant
Let's just get the record straight. Can you read people's minds?
- OPOz Pearlman
I cannot read people's minds.
- AGAdam Grant
Why do people wanna believe this?
- OPOz Pearlman
Why do people do that? Because people wanna believe in something more than what they see, right? Science is amazing, but everybody, even the most scientific person there is, has some level of wanting to know what is, uh, what is possible.
- SPSpeaker
[upbeat music] [audience clapping]
- AGAdam Grant
All right, Oz Pearlman, welcome to Penn.
- OPOz Pearlman
Thank you. Thanks for having me.
- SPSpeaker
[cheering]
- AGAdam Grant
You have been described as the world's greatest mentalist. What am I gonna say next?
- OPOz Pearlman
[laughs] Even I don't know what Adam Grant is gonna say next.
- AGAdam Grant
I didn't think it would get us anywhere, but I, I felt like I had to try.
- OPOz Pearlman
You had to.
- 0:42 – 1:39
Origin story and the “waterproof cards” level of obsession
- AGAdam Grant
So I, I have to start by asking you if you've been avoiding me.
- OPOz Pearlman
I have not been avoiding you.
- AGAdam Grant
Well, I beg to differ because I have a very vivid memory of being 15 years old and being at diving practice, and my teammate Joe said, "Hey, I have a, a swimmer on my team at school who is also a magician. You guys would really hit it off. You should hang out." And it took us 26, 27 years after that to meet.
- OPOz Pearlman
I'm, I, I remember Joe Lebovic. I'm calling him out. He did not tell me this. Certain nerd levels, magician in high school is the top of the top, folks.
- SPSpeaker
[laughing]
- OPOz Pearlman
And if you wanna take it to the next level, in a chapter of my book, I recount the fact that I had waterproof cards because I thought I was wasting time in the shower not practicing. So take that-
- AGAdam Grant
Wow
- OPOz Pearlman
... and I raise you Dungeons and Dragons level right there.
- AGAdam Grant
That is a whole new level of dork.
- OPOz Pearlman
That is a whole new level.
- AGAdam Grant
At least you weren't a mime, though.
- OPOz Pearlman
That, I've never done miming. I was a clown once. I needed the money desperately, and those were dark times.
- 1:39 – 2:45
No secrets—only transferable skills: what mentalism really is
- AGAdam Grant
So you're not gonna reveal any secrets tonight, are you?
- OPOz Pearlman
Lots of secrets, but not on how to be a mentalist. So guessing random things from strangers, while very entertaining in my niche, isn't going to serve you in your life. But there's a lot of skills surrounding what I do, that I've distilled from about three decades of doing this, that work in every facet of life because interacting with people is what defines your success. I'm not trying to create a puzzle that's trying to be figured out. I'm rather trying to show a skill that can be displayed and that a lot of people give me the highest compliment ever. They'll say, "I don't like magic, but man, I love what you do." And that's, you don't realize, kind of a backhanded compliment because mentalism is a subset of magic. But when you see a magician, and there's tricks, right? There's card tricks, or there's a box, and somebody puts swords in it, the question in the back of your head is always, "If I had that box, or if I had the deck of cards, could I do that trick, too?" And so where that separates with what I do is there is no thing to point at. I am the performance. So what you're seeing is a skill that I've learned and developed as opposed to a prop that is helping me.
- 2:45 – 4:53
Taking bigger swings: risk, failure-proofing, and misdirection of outcomes
- AGAdam Grant
I do think there's one distinction that, that people often miss, which is I think that mentalism and stage illusions are similar in that once you know the secret, it's kind of a bummer. Whereas with some close-up magic, it's gets even more impressive-
- OPOz Pearlman
Right
- AGAdam Grant
... when it's revealed.
- OPOz Pearlman
I would, I would argue that's partially true. Some of the stuff, when you figure out in mentalism how it works, you can't believe that somebody would actually have the audacity to try to do that. So it flips towards either ridiculously easy or ridiculously crazy where people go, "There's no way you're gonna do that on live national TV. What if it goes wrong?" And I go, "Let's go." [laughs] You know, that's, and that's truly been a secret to my success, is the fact that I'm willing to take bigger swings than almost anybody else in my field, and so you get bigger rewards.
- AGAdam Grant
How did you build the courage to take those risks?
- OPOz Pearlman
So I think over time I've just realized that if I plan very effectively, uh, and learn how to, you know, plan for failure. Exactly what you would think. Troubleshoots. When I go into something now, I've tried to map out and model what happens if this goes wrong, what happens if this goes wrong, what happens if this goes wrong? And also, a big part of it is realizing over time that I am in control of where the camera's pointed. Think of this like a movie and a director. In a movie, you only get to see the final cut. You don't get to see the other three or four endings that the director could've made. So when you see the movie, you only get one portrayal of it. Now, how does that apply to what I do? You think that you know exactly how that happened, and that was amazing. What if I told you that trick went completely wrong? But I moved you to the path I wanted, so you never knew where I was going with something. That's my advantage. Therefore, you never knew if it failed. If I set up a challenge as I'm going from point A to point B, then you know I made a mistake, but if we start driving, and you don't know where I'm gonna end up, that's kinda the beautiful part about what I do. That's taken years and years to learn, that I don't telegraph in advance where I'm going.
- AGAdam Grant
How many backup plans do you have for a typical trick?
- OPOz Pearlman
Countless.
- AGAdam Grant
Okay. So most people would look at you and say, like, being a mentalist is part of a genre of entertainment, but-
- OPOz Pearlman
Sure
- AGAdam Grant
... you don't see entertaining as your primary goal.
- 4:53 – 6:37
From entertainment to “memorable moments” people retell
- OPOz Pearlman
Uh, I don't see entertaining as my primary goal at all because pure entertainment is like watching a movie at a theater. You leave the movie theater, and 10 minutes later someone's like, "So what happened in the movie?" And you're like, "Ugh, I don't..." You know, how, how many have had that experience? The next day you cannot tell people more than the plot line on the synopsis on Rotten Tomatoes. Just, it was in and out one ear. It was entertaining, but it's not memorable. And so I define what I do, over years and years of understanding, is I create memorable moments. What are memorable moments? Now, being amazed is one thing, but I wanna create a moment that for both of them they will talk about later. They will talk about later, and they will tell other people about. And the more you recount a memory, know this, the more it gets defined in your mind. The stories you've told the most in your life are the ones that are most vivid in your mind because you've told them over and over. That's how memory works. It's kinda like, do you remember a story when you were a kid where you have a video of it and you've seen the video so many times that you remember it so vividly? So the same thing applies to what I do, and I think that I wouldn't have a career if everybody wanted to figure it out because the people that really go down the rabbit hole and wanna figure it out, a lot of them start to become mentalists. That's what I did. I'm like, "I need to know how you just did that," and I am like a pit bull who's not gonna let go of your leg until I figure it out. So I kept studying and learning, and that's how it became a thing for me. But the truth is, I can't read minds. I can read people. I can influence people, and that's what I'm doing. It is not supernatural. There is nothing psychic about what I do. I have a very strong intuition. I would describe that as very different than being psychic because I've honed it. Because if you had been in front of people tens of thousands of times and had them pick a number 1 to 100, you have such a data set that I can tell what people will do in many instances before they even know, and that's because I've done it so much.
- 6:37 – 9:03
Designing for the audience: value-first thinking (CNBC case study)
- AGAdam Grant
Talk to me a little bit about how you go about planning a trick and creating memorable moments because I think that's one of the real generalizable lessons is mentalism has been around for many decades. I think our, our parents remember Uri Geller in the '70s-
- OPOz Pearlman
Sure
- AGAdam Grant
... um, tricking people into believing that he could read minds. Your performance art is completely different than what we're used to seeing from mentalists. So how did you build it? What are the key ingredients in a memorable moment?
- OPOz Pearlman
My whole mindset is who cares about me, right? If you buy this book, I, I don't need you to be my fan. I don't want you to know anything about me. I wanna know what this does for me. So that ethos of how I think about things is always value-oriented and benefits-oriented. The language I've used to sell since I was 14 years old, and I walked up to a restaurant, it's a chapter in the book, and somehow sweet-talked into being a restaurant magician, was never about look how cool my tricks are, okay? That's wrong. It's figuring out what's going on in the other person's head. Anybody here, maybe some of you are gonna go into corporate America, some of you are gonna startups, right? All of you should think in your mind about what the other person is, your consumer, your boss, your colleague. The more you can empathize and realize what's going on in their mind, the stronger your advantage in life will be. Now let me give you a great example from me. As a mentalist, what do I think of when I'm, when I'm pitching a TV idea? Nothing about me. I'm pitching the viewer at home and why they should care about me. So I'm gonna give you a great example. CNBC is the financial network. Fox Business is another one. How many of you have ever watched CNBC or Fox Business? How many mentalists or magicians have ever been on those two networks, do you know? One, and it's me. And last year I was on... This isn't a brag. I want you to really think about this because this does not make sense. These are serious networks. Their time on air is sold for a lot of money to people buying stocks and bonds, trading trillions of dollars. Why are they putting me on their platform? And last year, this is a crazy statistic, look it up, I had more airtime on CNBC than any CEO in the country. Fortune 500. Did you hear what I just said? Any CEO in the country in 2024, this guy had more time on that network than them. That is preposterous. It's not because of this pretty face. It's because everything I designed was hyper-focused on the person watching the content. I didn't think about me, I thought about them. It was about stocks. It was about bonds. It was about CEOs. It was about what's the market gonna do. So somebody who turns this on and goes, "Who's this guy?"
- 9:03 – 11:36
Being the most interesting by being the most interested
- OPOz Pearlman
is captured. The more you make the focus on the other person in life, the more success you will attain. I don't mean just in your business career, I mean in your personal life. Think to yourself, how many times have you been at a party or a networking event and you walked out of the room and one person stood out to you, and you go, "God, that person was so awesome." What was so awesome about them? Try to define it. Try to quantify what did they do that made you feel so special or that you like them so much? And I've been in rooms with some of the most powerful people in the world, with Adam as well, and you've seen it, and what made people stick out? I've analyzed it, and time and time again, the person who I find the most appealing and most interesting is the person who's the most interested. They've looked at me. They've seen me. They haven't been on their phone. They haven't been looking around. They're locked in on me. They ask me questions that I haven't heard before. "Oh, what are you majoring in? Where are you going next year?" Boring. I've heard those questions a million times. So have you. How do you stand out from others? Now, I'm not saying to be... Again, this isn't a manipulative approach. This isn't like I need to plan in advance what I'm gonna do. This is starting to think like the other person and realizing that if that person feels seen, heard, that you're interested in them, then they leave feeling great about you because you've showcased the most important person in the world to them, themselves. The more you can realize that every person is the lead actor or actress in their movie and make them shine, the better you will do. That is what's allowed me, over the last 20 years since I quit my job on Wall Street, to get to where I am.
- AGAdam Grant
So I have a couple reactions to that. The first one is I w- I was noticing your, your language.
- OPOz Pearlman
Yes.
- AGAdam Grant
You're very careful about how you speak. And you said, "I've been in rooms with some of the most powerful people in the world, as well as Adam."
- OPOz Pearlman
Yes. [laughs] Adam was with me-
- SPSpeaker
Marking that.
- OPOz Pearlman
Adam was with me in the room is what I meant.
- AGAdam Grant
I, I, I really appreciated you separating me from that group of people.
- OPOz Pearlman
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Thank you, Oz. Secondly, um, I'm thinking about some work psychologists have done to underscore your point. There's a, a classic Jamie Pennebaker experiment where people have to come into a group and talk to a bunch of strangers, and then afterward they're asked, "How much did you like the group?" And the more they talked, the more they liked the other people in the group.
- OPOz Pearlman
Right.
- AGAdam Grant
Uh, Jamie calls it the joy of talking, and he says, uh, that most of us find that communicating our thoughts is a supremely enjoyable learning experience.
- OPOz Pearlman
Right. [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Uh, people, sure enough, they actually believe not only they like the other people more in the group, but the more you talk, the more you think you learned about everyone else.
- OPOz Pearlman
Right.
- AGAdam Grant
Um, so I think that, that really just, um, probably illustrates your point nicely.
- 11:36 – 16:14
Reading body language and removing resistance: the restaurant magician training ground
- OPOz Pearlman
Funny because a lot of the things that I learned were, were very, they're, they're body language approach type things. So how do you know if somebody's interested? And I, I mean, I don't mean this romantically. It can be romantically, but you go into an interview. How do you know if that person when you left was really interested? Or they go, "Oh, yeah, we'll be in touch." Did they mean it? Did they not mean it, right? What can you discern from their body language, and what can you do to influence them? That's a huge one. Those, like, those tips and tricks of watching, how do you match somebody's energy at the right level where you're not overwhelming them but you're also not putting them to sleep? I learned so much of this as, like I told you, at 14 years old. At 13, I started doing magic. You know this area. There's a place on 12 Mile in Orchard Lake called Zia's. It was a Italian restaurant that every two years would close down, and every two years they'd give it a new spin, new coat of paint. It went from being Mexican to Italian. Like, somehow we'll figure out how to make this restaurant work. I needed to make money. My parents had gotten divorced. Won't give you the whole sob story. And so my mom is like, "I don't have any money. You can't buy any more magic tricks. It's like 40 bucks for every trick deck of cards. You need to go work." So I walked up to this restaurant, ignorance is bliss, and somehow talked my way into being a restaurant magician once a week for three hours. Do you think that people seeing a 14-year-old 4' nothing kid walk up to you with a deck of cards were waiting for their moment to watch you when they had a babysitter? They're like, "No dude, get away." That was the school of hard knocks to learn what rejection feels like. It does not feel good. And so I learned all these little ways to iterate. Every time, change a little variable, like a recipe. Change this, a little more sugar. How's that taste? A little more salt. How's that taste? And I realized the secret sauce is when I walked up to people, what are they thinking when I walk up to them? Ask yourself, what does someone think about you when they meet you? And this is a tough thing to do because you're only used to being yourself. So I realized really early on that when I walk up to them, they don't know if I work there. They don't know if I'm any good. They don't know what I'm doing. And then when they figure out, "Oh my God, is this kid gonna stay here for a long time? We're in the middle of a conversation. Do I have to tip him? Do I have money?" All of these things went through their mind in the first three seconds, even sometimes before I even got to the table. And so my job became, how do I eliminate every point of resistance in their mind by the time I get to the table? How quickly can I do it? I realized if I walk up to a table, watch, just like this, at an angle, and just walk up like this with only one eye showing, people are less tense. It doesn't feel like you're approaching them as much as you're just stopping by. I create a very quick time limit. I go, "I only have a minute." Right, right away, I set the tone. "But did you hear what's going on tonight? It's your lucky night." Right when you say that, it's not a yes or no question. I learned early on, yes or no questions get me shut down. "Guys, wanna see magic?" "No." "Oh, but my mom says I'm really good." Right? What are you gonna do with that? Next, I would say as soon as they go, "Lucky night," right? I've, I've piqued your curiosity. I realized that I wanna establish social credibility. So I would say, "The owner brought me in as a special treat for you tonight, and I'm showing you the most amazing thing you've ever seen." Right, right away, the owner brought me in as a special treat. I'm here because somebody of a high level brought me in as a special treat. You're not worried about giving me money anymore. Now this is a hyper-specific example to when I was in a restaurant, but you can approach the same methodology as what I just said with parts of your life. Where is it that you're gonna meet people? Where is it that you're gonna be with people you've already been with before? It's not always from meeting somebody new. Some of us don't meet new people every day in life. But that's the kind of way to think about stuff where I analyze the pain points and I try to put myself in the other person's shoes.
- AGAdam Grant
Do you have trouble falling asleep at night?
- OPOz Pearlman
Uh, I would say yes.
- AGAdam Grant
I can tell.
- OPOz Pearlman
But that's 'cause I have a six-month-old and my brain is racing. But I actually do have trouble falling asleep lately. Yeah, too much going on.
- AGAdam Grant
So one of the, one of the things I'm struck by is, is actually this is a form of mind reading, right? Because you're anticipating what other people are thinking and feeling.
- OPOz Pearlman
Truly.
- AGAdam Grant
And then you're disarming that.
- OPOz Pearlman
It's called channel your inner mentalist. I'm not teaching you to be a mentalist, but the same skills really do apply.
- AGAdam Grant
I really like your specific identifying the hesitation people have, and then maybe even calling it out.
- OPOz Pearlman
Right.
- AGAdam Grant
Um, you go into a job interview and somebody asks, "What's your greatest weakness?" The easiest thing to do in that moment is say, "You know, I bet you've had a lot of people give you fake weaknesses."
- OPOz Pearlman
Yep.
- AGAdam Grant
And say, like Michael Scott, "Yeah, I have weaknesses. I work too hard and I care too much."
- OPOz Pearlman
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
I'm not gonna do that.
- OPOz Pearlman
Right.
- AGAdam Grant
Let me tell you about a real weakness that I struggled a lot with, and here's what I'm doing to overcome it. So easy. I mean, that's exactly the kind of thing that you did as a 14-year-old, right? [laughs] Like, "You probably hate magic."
- 16:14 – 17:46
Breaking autopilot with vulnerability: the ‘stuck elevator’ principle
- OPOz Pearlman
Absolutely. Vulnerability, honesty, and, and also thinking of shifting people out of autopilot. So I like to use that example a lot, which is what is autopilot? I'm gonna give you just a great example. You get into an elevator. I live in New York City, and you get in an elevator with two other people. You don't talk to each other. You're looking away. You're looking at your phone. Anything to not have eye contact for those 20 seconds, right? But what if that elevator gets stuck? And then everyone pushes their button, and then you're stuck in the elevator 45 seconds. Suddenly you will talk to those other people. You might become besties, right? "Oh man, we got through it together," right? There's somehow a change in the environment that creates this moment where all of you are no longer that person you were a moment ago, even though you're the same people. What creates that where suddenly you act differently? You're not your autopilot self. Ask yourself, what can you do to make the elevator get stuck when you're with someone else? How do you make them suddenly connect with you in a way that they don't normally? And for me, you're in an environment where you're feeling nervous. What do you do? Tell someone. Be like, "I'm so nervous right now, man. I, I... Are you too?" And you opening up to somebody with a smile and allowing them to see that you're a person just like they are. I've had environments like that where that's really just taken somebody and they've identified with me, and it's just broken down their walls. Because you don't know what to say. That's great. You know what? Lean into that. I think that that is something you can do, like you just said, that right away shows that you're a real person and allows people to open up to you.
- AGAdam Grant
Did you know there are two people who came here together who met when an elevator got s- No, I'm just kidding.
- OPOz Pearlman
That's, I see them right there. I see them right there.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- 17:46 – 20:28
Overcoming rejection: cognitive reappraisal and identity separation
- AGAdam Grant
Talk to us about overcoming your fear of rejection.
- OPOz Pearlman
Sure.
- AGAdam Grant
That's something that holds a lot of people back from even making the first approach.
- OPOz Pearlman
I think that's the number one thing that holds people back. I, I truly believe that it's internal monologues that talk you out of going for things, that over and over you will say to yourself all the reasons why something can't be done. And once you start doing that on repeat, do you know what happens? You stop looking for the paths for where it can be done. J- just that constant telling yourself, "I can't do it," starts to limit your options in your mind. It's the way you look for things that you don't find the, the right paths. I learned this early on at the restaurants because it hurt so bad if you went to one, two, three, four tables in a row that turned you down or were rude to you, that it just hurt. What I did around the age of 14 or 15 is I created almost, like, a split personality, for lack of a better term. Have a s- psychiatrist explain this. But I started getting really mad at the next table. I would take my anger out at them because, "Those guys are such dicks. Like, you know what? Screw you guys, too." Like, I was being nasty to other people because I felt so angry from before. And I realized, I'm not gonna be able to do this, and I'm not gonna be able to get more money to buy more magic tricks. So I was very, like [laughs] incentive-driven. So I started to create this excuse in my mind where I blame-shifted. And, and this is truly a rewiring of your brain, where I started saying, if they were nasty to me, I'd go, "I bet their kid was sick," or, "I bet they had a fight right before I came to the table." I started making it not about me. And so I started to create this thing in my mind where I took the blame onto someone else. So if they didn't like me, they... I said, "They don't know Oz Pearlman. That's Oz the Magician. They didn't like Oz the Magician's tricks. Not my bad." So I didn't internalize the hit. I didn't feel the rejection the same way. Instead of thinking of it as a no, 'cause people would be like, "Eh, let go of it," I would think of it as a not yet. Not yet. Not yet. Keep taking strides. Maybe it's not meant to be now. Rewire the way you think about it.
- AGAdam Grant
Those examples are a master class in making situational as opposed to dispos- dispositional attributions in cognitive reappraisal, in self-distancing. Um, all the emotion regulation techniques that we teach in psychology, you applied them without having the names for them.
- OPOz Pearlman
You used much better terminology than I did.
- AGAdam Grant
They're not rejecting all of you. They're rejectio- rejecting a sh- a, it's a snapshot of you.
- OPOz Pearlman
Of course. That's it.
- AGAdam Grant
Right? It's a... It's like, if... It's the equivalent of if you took a selfie and somebody thought you were ugly, y- like, you don't internalize that, right? [laughs] You're like, "Oh, bad angle. Bad lighting."
- OPOz Pearlman
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
And then if they rejected four selfies, now you have a problem.
- OPOz Pearlman
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
But I think the way that you separated your identity, your self-image, from their reactions to just this little interaction or this little performance is such a critical skill for building resilience.
- 20:28 – 22:34
Beating procrastination by time-traveling your emotions (24-hour alarm trick)
- OPOz Pearlman
Absolutely. Absolutely, and you have to find a way to do it because I didn't want this to end, and I was finding myself just so hurt that you have to find a way around it. So I'll give you just another example that, it's, it's a little off the beaten path, but I'm a huge procrastinator. I will keep pushing off the things I hate doing, and that has led to my detriment because I'll focus more on my strengths than my weaknesses. So over time, I've realized that's holding me down. That's an anchor on me. So I figured I have to find a way around this. So here's what I do. I swear to God this is exactly what I do. I don't do it as often now because I've learned to internalize it. I will put an alarm on my phone for 24 hours from now. Not... Like, I'm serious. I go 24 hours from this moment, and in the alarm, I write the question, "How do you feel about X, one to 10?" And I write that in the alarm, and I put it on, and now I force myself to do what I wasn't gonna wanna do. Send the email, make the call. I take care of business. I do the thing I wa- didn't like, and right before I do it, I ask myself, "What was the number I felt?" And it's usually like, oh, God, seven, eight, or nine. Dread, anxiety. The next day when the alarm goes off, nine out of 10, I don't even remember that the alarm was set. Do you understand what I mean? That anxiety, that panic, everything I felt, and now when I look at it, I go, "I'm a two." So what happened? Nothing. Time lapsed. Time lapsed. Your brain didn't change. Nothing changed. Your perception of time is all that occurred. So if you could find a way to fast-forward your feelings and feel the way you're going to in 24 hours now, you don't dread it anymore, and that is a trick. The same way I play tricks on your minds, that is a way you can trick your mind, and once you've done that two or three times with the alarm, you will realize it's not real. The anxiety and the dread is not real, and that, in the last two years, ever since I started doing it, has changed my life. I handle things much quicker. I don't delay them. Try it. You're gonna be like, "It's not as bad as I thought it would be," and I know that.
- AGAdam Grant
Anticipatory emotion regulation.
- OPOz Pearlman
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Well played.
- OPOz Pearlman
We need to go on the road together.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
I'm just, I'm just gonna make up random words-
- OPOz Pearlman
Yes
- AGAdam Grant
... for the things you say. That sounds like the, uh, the shoelace effect.
- OPOz Pearlman
There we go.
- 22:34 – 24:52
Lightning round: ultramarathons, career advice, and creative inspirations
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. Um, okay. Lightning round. Uh, rapid-fire questions, quick answers.
- OPOz Pearlman
Okay.
- AGAdam Grant
You're an ultramarathon runner.
- OPOz Pearlman
Yes.
- AGAdam Grant
Uh, first of all, what's the longest you've ever run continuously?
- OPOz Pearlman
153 miles.
- SPSpeaker
Whoa.
- AGAdam Grant
Without sleep?
- OPOz Pearlman
Uh, I slept for five minutes, so yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
Okay, and-
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
What's the biggest lesson you've learned-
- OPOz Pearlman
I like how one person's like, "You're such a wuss." Ah.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs] Biggest lesson from that insanity.
- OPOz Pearlman
Um, so the ultramarathoning is truly... It, it fulfills me in a different way because it's, it makes everything else in life easier. So when you go through that and you have these difficult, awful, horrible feelings, um, that, that you wanna give up, and you're like, "Oh, that sounds really fun. Oz, why are you doing that?" Uh, once I get through it, it's incredible. So it's the, it's the getting through it and overcoming the adversity that can't be faked. I actually prefer for it to be miserable because then it sharpens my mind for later.
- AGAdam Grant
I, I think this is something that people often don't understand about doing high-intensity sports. I, I had the same experience as a diver. Like, how could I ever hesitate to send an email or make a call or get on a stage? It will never hurt anywhere near as much as a belly flop going 30 miles an hour. I'm like, you do that, every single social risk you take is easier.
- OPOz Pearlman
Right.
- AGAdam Grant
It sounds like-
- OPOz Pearlman
And I will never-
- AGAdam Grant
... both swimming and running feel that way
- OPOz Pearlman
... laugh as hard as seeing a strong belly flop, but no offense, but yes.
- AGAdam Grant
What is the worst career advice you've ever gotten?
- OPOz Pearlman
Listening to haters.
- AGAdam Grant
Okay. Uh, [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
What's the best re-
- OPOz Pearlman
Three words. I got it back.
- AGAdam Grant
Nailed it.
- OPOz Pearlman
Lightning.
- AGAdam Grant
What's the best reason to leave a job on Wall Street?
- 24:52 – 27:11
Audience Q&A: tolerating risk, buying time when plans collapse, being memorable to mentors
- AGAdam Grant
Um, okay, there are a couple audience questions.
- OPOz Pearlman
Clipping that and sending it to Derren.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs] Feel free. Audience questions that we haven't covered yet. Uh, one person wants to know what's my ATM pin code.
- OPOz Pearlman
Okay.
- AGAdam Grant
Not gonna happen.
- OPOz Pearlman
Where are you? Where are you?
- AGAdam Grant
Uh, another wants to know what's the hardest part of your craft?
- OPOz Pearlman
Being okay with tremendous risk.
- AGAdam Grant
Uh, what about when all your backup plans fail? What do you do then?
- OPOz Pearlman
Get more time, if possible.
- AGAdam Grant
So you'll do a follow-up trick? Ma-
- OPOz Pearlman
I, I... If, if there's time. So it's j- it's like a plane landing on a runway. As long as there's more runway, right? Burn rate on a startup. Give me some more of that money. Series B, baby.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- OPOz Pearlman
So I can try to get out of it. So time is what I try to buy more of.
- AGAdam Grant
Who is the hardest celebrity or CEO to fool?
- OPOz Pearlman
Ah, I don't know who's the hardest. Um, if they're the hardest, I don't remember them well.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- OPOz Pearlman
I try to PTSD that away.
- AGAdam Grant
Um, question you have for me.
- OPOz Pearlman
Other than me, what was the most fascinating conversation you ever had?
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs] Ever?
- OPOz Pearlman
Most fascinating person you've ever met.
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, that's a tough one. I think the most fascinating person I have ever met actually is, um, is Brian Little, um, my undergrad mentor.
- OPOz Pearlman
Really?
- AGAdam Grant
I have never had a conversation with him where I didn't come out with 20 or 30 new questions, and I could bring up any topic and he would have something riveting to share about it, and another question then to go and seed my curiosity for a year, and he's the reason I became a psychologist.
- OPOz Pearlman
I, I think that's incredible, and if you can find the person who's maybe who you wanna be in one year, or three years, or five years, or 10 years, and win them over, and people are so busy nowadays that it's hard to get access, right? I'm busy. I'm this. How do you find an interesting way to get them to, in essence, give you their time? And I found that the best way to do that is you want a relationship. What can you give them? They might not want money. They're very successful. So find things that are pain points for them and offer to do it for them, and a lot of the time, it's not by doing the same thing everybody else does. I want an internship. I want this. Find some way to help them that no one else has offered. Think to yourself, what's the difference between amazing and memorable? And everybody in here should try to find what can you do to be memorable so when you leave a room, wherever you are, you're the person people talk about later.
- 27:11 – 30:59
Live demonstration: guiding choices and ‘reading’ Faheem’s fiancé
- AGAdam Grant
All right. My most important question. Do you have another trick for us?
- OPOz Pearlman
Let's go.
- AGAdam Grant
[clapping] Woo. [laughs]
- OPOz Pearlman
Okay, here's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna kind of just go across, and I'm not gonna do a full word. I'm gonna go, and I want you to stop me as I go. Stop me as I go.
- AGAdam Grant
I'm gonna close my eyes.
- OPOz Pearlman
No, no, no. Look.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- OPOz Pearlman
There's literally three words to pick from. It's not that-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- OPOz Pearlman
As I go, say stop.
- AGAdam Grant
Stop.
- OPOz Pearlman
Okay. I'm looking, and I am either on the F or the U. Raise your hand if your first name starts with an F. Okay. I could do U. I'm just thinking if there's less Us. Raise your hand up one more time if your name starts with the letter F. F, F.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- OPOz Pearlman
What is... Uh, right over here, what is your first name?
- AGAdam Grant
Franz. Franz.
- OPOz Pearlman
Franz?
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- OPOz Pearlman
Never spoken a word in our life. I wanna make sure. Is that 100% true?
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- OPOz Pearlman
Okay. F. Uh, yes, yes, yes. What's your first name?
- AGAdam Grant
Faheem.
- OPOz Pearlman
Faheem, stand up for me as well, and then I'm gonna go one more person. Let's give this a shot. Uh, now, I wanna define this, when I say memorable. Faheem, if I guess something amazing about you and you didn't tell anyone about it, I have failed utterly. So if I ask everybody in this room who you would call, right, or who you would text after this and tell them, "You're not gonna believe what he did," can you, right now, did someone pop into your head? Did someone pop in your head? Faheem, you know exactly who you would call or text. Is that correct? Imagine this person calls you right now and you get them on the phone. Can you picture it? See your person in your mind. Can you see your person?
- AGAdam Grant
Yes.
- OPOz Pearlman
Watch this. Faheem, count the number of letters in your person's first name. Just count the number of letters. Now, notice how quick he counted. Everyone see it? He didn't struggle. If the name was very long, it takes time to count. If the name is very, very short, you instantly know it. If you just count quickly, it's typically five or six letters, sometimes seven, but you smiled at the beginning. Five letters, isn't it?
- AGAdam Grant
Yep. Yep.
- OPOz Pearlman
Also, notice where his hands are. His hands are here. It's a female, isn't it?
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- OPOz Pearlman
Of course it is.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- OPOz Pearlman
Hands here, typically female. Hands here, a guy. I don't know why.
Episode duration: 31:09
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