Why Maria Sharapova rethought her rivalry with Serena Williams | ReThinking

1. 0:00 – 2:24

   Why Sharapova avoids playing tennis after retirement (and what might change her mind)

   1. MSMaria Sharapova0:00

      Resilience was almost like a silent lesson that I got to experience every single day because in sport you make a lot of errors, and sometimes those errors are in your control, and sometimes they're not. And so even within that, you start to learn that focus on things that you can control. [upbeat music]

   2. AGAdam Grant0:23

      I have to tell you, we've known each other for a decade, and we've never played a racket sport together. No tennis, no padel, no pickleball, not even ping pong. Why?

   3. MSMaria Sharapova0:32

      I like how you say padel. It's very European of you, Adam.

   4. AGAdam Grant0:36

      I think it's technically Mexican, right? Padel-

   5. MSMaria Sharapova0:38

      [laughs]

   6. AGAdam Grant0:38

      ... is the origin.

   7. MSMaria Sharapova0:39

      No, that's too deep. [laughs] It's too early to get in the, in the details of it.

   8. AGAdam Grant0:43

      Are you dodging the question already?

   9. MSMaria Sharapova0:44

      I'm pretty much so. But no, the reason we haven't is, well, we've met at conferences, we've met at fantastic events, but it's always, it's usually those types of events that I join where I know ahead of time there isn't a court. [laughs]

   10. AGAdam Grant0:59

       On purpose?

   11. MSMaria Sharapova1:00

       Most likely.

   12. AGAdam Grant1:01

       Why are you avoiding it?

   13. MSMaria Sharapova1:03

       Oh, um, I did it for so long. It was part of my life every single day, and I think I've said this to you before, but when your body has known what it's felt like to be at a very high level, when it's toned, when it's fast-paced, when the muscle twitch is at an excellent level, unlike right now, it's always hard to go back to something that isn't at that high level and do it, um, at a very unfamiliar, slower pace.

   14. AGAdam Grant1:33

       What would it take to make you rethink that?

   15. MSMaria Sharapova1:35

       [laughs] Well, I love tennis as a workout. I think it is one of the best workouts you can do. First of all, because you are off your screen, and you cannot think about anything else. You cannot think about your work, about your family. You can't have any distractions because if those little thoughts start creeping in, you are going to make errors. Your opponent's gonna hit many winners, and it's not gonna feel good. So what I love about racket sports is that you are all in, and I love something that puts you in a position to give it everything, mentally, physically, and, and I think that's why I chose the sport for such a long time.

   16. AGAdam Grant2:15

       Okay. So I need to appeal to your desire for a good workout and-

   17. MSMaria Sharapova2:19

       Okay

   18. AGAdam Grant2:19

       ... [laughs] for a distraction from work and family. Is that what you're telling me?

   19. MSMaria Sharapova2:23

       Yes. Yes. [laughs]

2. 2:24 – 3:17

   Which racket sport she’d actually play—and her “cat and mouse” philosophy

   1. AGAdam Grant2:24

      Is tennis the racket sport you're most likely to say yes to?

   2. MSMaria Sharapova2:27

      Absolutely.

   3. AGAdam Grant2:28

      Oh, interesting. I, I would have thought it would be ping pong because you don't feel as much the, "Oh, but I'm not at, at the top of my game, and I haven't been training, and I'm not as great as I used to be."

   4. MSMaria Sharapova2:36

      I have no chance at, at any of the other racket sports, not pickle, not padel, not... I mean, ping pong is off the table completely.

   5. AGAdam Grant2:45

      Why?

   6. MSMaria Sharapova2:46

      I need more movement.

   7. AGAdam Grant2:46

      Ironically. [laughs]

   8. MSMaria Sharapova2:48

      Yeah. [laughs]

   9. AGAdam Grant2:48

      It's literally on the table.

   10. MSMaria Sharapova2:50

       Yeah. [laughs] Well, for me, it's off the table. Um, because there's not enough movement. It's too quick. I like it to be a little more intellectual. My father used to say, "You have to play a cat and mouse game," and that's what I loved about tennis, which is quite ironic because I was known to have such powerful strokes, and I liked a quicker point. But my father's philosophy was that you, you just need to be smarter during the point. It's not about hitting a winner.

3. 3:17 – 5:33

   Resilience as a daily skill: composure, control, and injury recovery

   1. AGAdam Grant3:17

      Okay. But now that I've, I've gotten my most important ReThinking question off the table, one of the, one of the things that I think a lot of people associate with you when they look back on your career is resilience, and I would love to, to hear you talk a little bit about the lessons that you learned as a tennis player about resilience. You had to bounce back from a number of challenges, ranging from defeat to time away from the game to injury. What, what did, what did all that teach you about how to bounce back from adversity or even bounce forward?

   2. MSMaria Sharapova3:47

      Hmm. Resilience was a, a huge daily component of, of my life as an athlete. You start to learn that focus on things that you can control. You know, focus on, on your composure. Focus on your reactions. Focus on, you know, you did have a lot of confidence going into a match, and all of a sudden that broke. You know, someone yelled something in the crowd. You know, sport just taught me that control that emotional composure, and your opponent sees everything. You know, your opponent sees everything on your face and, and in your body language, and boy, was that a fantastic lesson, um, in motherhood. You know, you were spending this quiet afternoon with your kid and, and all of a sudden this tantrum comes up, and it throws you off-piste. When my kid comes and, and says something that just like, ugh, I wanna boil inside. But I know that if I show up to him confidently, calmly, I know that that will change his energy as well, right? He feeds off of my energy, and so I just, I think of resilience as so many different components. Injuries, you know, getting, getting injured and having to accept that you are not... It's not about getting better anymore. It's just about getting your body back in a position to get better. You have to forget about winning, which is so hard as an athlete to forget about winning, 'cause every single day you're training to win. And so when all of a sudden your body just lets you down, you know, what do you do? You focus on yourself. You focus on getting stronger. You stop thinking about the bigger picture, and the bigger picture's always been about championships and trophies. And so going back to the basics was also an important resilient lesson.

4. 5:33 – 6:56

   Winning with barely more than a coin flip: points, momentum, and instinct

   1. AGAdam Grant5:33

      You know, thinking about the everyday resilience of tennis, I'm sure you watched Roger Federer's Dartmouth commencement speech. The, the moment that stopped me in my tracks was when he said...

   2. MSMaria Sharapova5:42

      What percentage of points do you think I won in those matches? Only 54%.

   3. AGAdam Grant5:49

      I was like, wait, one of the greatest tennis players-

   4. MSMaria Sharapova5:51

      Mm

   5. AGAdam Grant5:51

      ... of all time is-

   6. MSMaria Sharapova5:52

      Yeah

   7. AGAdam Grant5:52

      ... barely above 50/50. How frustrating is that? To know that you're at the very top of your game, and you're hardly gonna ha- you're hardly gonna do better than a coin toss. Were you aware of that when you were playing, and how did you deal with it?

   8. MSMaria Sharapova6:06

      I was very well aware that you would lose a lot of points. I wasn't, I wasn't as particular about the percentages, but I knew one of the philosophies that I always thought about throughout a match is the first point is important, and so is the 10th point, and so is the momentum shifts in the middle of the match. But the only thing that matters is who wins when you shake hands. We can look back to statistics, and we can think back to numbers, and y- you can apply a lot of data, but ultimately, what does that data do? It only makes your instinct better because when it's six-all in the third set or in the fifth set and you are playing that final tiebreaker, you're not thinking about points won or lost. You're letting your body do the work. You're letting your mind do the work. You're hoping that you're free and that you're just capitalizing on your experience and just the sheer will to win.

5. 6:56 – 9:58

   Mastery vs victory: her evolving mindset about competing and winning

   1. AGAdam Grant6:56

      Okay, when you talk about winning, there are two different kinds of winning in, in psychology. One is, is basically mastery. It's about maximizing what I'm capable of and performing at my best. The other is more victory. It's about beating other people and being the best as opposed to just my best. And I think obviously both of these motivations are, are part of what drives you. Would you rather play your best and lose or play poorly and win?

   2. MSMaria Sharapova7:23

      [laughs] I love that question because I, I think my mentality changed over time the more experience that I gained in my career and the more coaches I had throughout. I remember I did a, a little training block with Jimmy Connors, and it didn't last very long. It lasted a few weeks, but one of the strongest takeaways was I was playing a practice match, and he was just on the sidelines. And after so many weeks of training, he's like, "I just wanna see you, I just wanna see you compete, you know? I wanna put all the, the little lessons that we worked on in. I, I wanna see you play a practice set." So I'm playing against a sparring partner, and it's a really tough game on, on his serve. And I had, you know, I had break points. I didn't win that point. I didn't get the game, and it was a really long game, and he wins the game. And I'm upset, and my version of upset is not like John McEnroe's version of upset. [laughs] But Jimmy noticed it.

   3. AGAdam Grant8:14

      I hadn't noticed.

   4. MSMaria Sharapova8:14

      [laughs] Jimmy noticed it, and he, he comes over, and he says, "I am so thrilled about that game." And I said, "How can you po- I had three break points, and I didn't take my chances." And he said, "But what does your opponent think right now? You know, you're playing against a guy who's serving at 120 miles an hour, and you had three break points. You just put a seed in his mind. The next time he's gonna step on the line, he knows that you just had those three break points. Forget about the fact that you lost the game. You did so much more than just lose that game. So you built up this, this fear in him." And what happened on the next game? I break him. Going back to another memory, I was, I was interviewing several coaches, and I remember we're in this New York hotel room, and one of the coaches comes in, and, and he just asked me about my goals. He's like, "What do you wanna achieve? What do you wanna do?" And the first thing that came to mind is, like, "I, I just wanna beat them, anyone that's across the net." And he's like, "Well, I wanna work with you."

   5. AGAdam Grant9:13

      It sounds like then early in your career, you, you [laughs] wanted to win even if you played poorly. But over time, you got more and more focused on, well, how well did I play regardless of the outcome.

   6. MSMaria Sharapova9:24

      Yeah, little by little.

   7. AGAdam Grant9:25

      I, I wonder how far that extends. So if you think about later in your career, would you even in a Grand Slam say, "Yeah, I'd, I'd rather play my best and lose"?

   8. MSMaria Sharapova9:34

      No.

   9. AGAdam Grant9:35

      I didn't think so.

   10. MSMaria Sharapova9:36

       [laughs]

   11. AGAdam Grant9:37

       So that's, that's doable when the stakes are lower, but as they go up, the outcome matters more.

   12. MSMaria Sharapova9:41

       Yeah. There's a lot that's associated with winning. There's the element of respect. There's, you know, not feeling sorry for yourself. There's the press conference after. Yeah, there's a lot of, there are a lot of external factors that have better association with winning than losing.

6. 9:58 – 10:47

   Love to win or hate to lose—and seeing tennis as a bigger ecosystem and business

   1. AGAdam Grant9:58

      How much of that motivation for you is loving to win versus hating to lose?

   2. MSMaria Sharapova10:01

      I never measured those two. As I grew up, and, and I really, I grew up in front of the public, um, in front of my fans and, you know, with every year, I think, you know, individuals saw me improve and saw me grow as, as a person and as a player. And I was-- I focused more about the quality of my work as opposed to anything else, even in my training, even the way that I competed, and I was always a big competitor. But I became a more professional competitor because I realized that there's so much more to the sport. It's, it's a lot bigger than who I am or who my opponent is. There's a deep level of respect for grinding it out every single week and seeing the same faces and places. Um, and beyond that, it's also a business.

7. 10:47 – 13:07

   What great coaches (and teams) do: boundaries, honesty, and saying no

   1. AGAdam Grant10:47

      Makes sense. I think one of the things that, that athletes are always acutely aware of is what makes a coach great, and also [laughs] what, what are the ba- bad habits that, that make co- make coaches ineffective. What's a standout memory you have from a coaching moment that changed the way you think about bringing out the best in people?

   2. MSMaria Sharapova11:03

      I think it's definitely evolved with my career because my father was my coach for a very long time until I won my third Grand Slam. And so the lessons that I learned in those years was that it's very important to have someone that deeply cares about you as a human being as opposed to you as a Wimbledon champion. And so when my father was no longer that figure on a daily basis in my tennis career, it was really important to choose the people that would be next to me that had my back beyond winning or losing. Because with success comes a lot of demand, and when you have someone next to you that really deeply cares about your mind and the health of your body and just you as, as an individual trying to grow in this [laughs] crazy world, I think that's a stronger quality than anything else.

   3. AGAdam Grant11:57

      How, how did your later coaches show that?

   4. MSMaria Sharapova11:59

      The coach often had to be the bad guy. The coach often had to say no. The coach often had to- Look at me across from the table and say, "You, you know, you've been invited to," who knows? The Met Gala. I mean, just silly example, but no, you're not flying across the world in the middle of your season to attend something that seems fun. It is fun. It's engaging. It's gonna get a lot of traction. It's great for your sponsors. You're in the public eye, but ultimately takes you away from your core goal. And that's a really hard conversation, so there's a, there's a deep level of respect that has to happen between you and that person, where they're able to just to tell you like it is, and they're very honest, and they're not saying things just to make you happy.

   5. AGAdam Grant12:45

      I think that's a role that we, we forget coaches need to play, which is they're not just helping you build your skills. They're also helping you prioritize your time and set boundaries.

   6. MSMaria Sharapova12:53

      Yes. Yes, and sometimes that's more than one person. You know, sometimes it, it, it's not a coach. Sometimes it is a manager. Sometimes it's someone, a m- mental coach. Sometimes it's just a friend, but ultimately it's, it, it's such an important asset.

8. 13:07 – 14:54

   Proudest accomplishment: consistency amid relentless travel and tournaments

   1. AGAdam Grant13:07

      When you look back on your career, what would you say is the accomplishment you're proudest of?

   2. MSMaria Sharapova13:12

      I look back, and I think of consistency. I think I gained success at a very young age. I was 17 years old, and although I was already, uh, was considered a prodigy and a phenom from a young age, I remember those terms are floated around, but it's never until you actually deliver that you feel that they're somewhat acceptable. And at 17 years old, when I won the finals at Wimbledon, it was when I realized that I need to deliver more on this promise where I'm holding the trophy, and everyone around me wants to beat me now.

   3. AGAdam Grant13:45

      So you say consistency. Are we talking 10, 15 years of consistency? Like, do you think about that actually, you know-

   4. MSMaria Sharapova13:52

      Yeah

   5. AGAdam Grant13:52

      ... a string of... Does it stretch out that long? Can you be proud of all of that together?

   6. MSMaria Sharapova13:56

      Yes. In a sport like tennis, where you are competing at least 10 out of the 12 months, and you're playing four majors every four years. In Olympic year, you have, you know, 1,000 events. There's 10 to 12 of them that you compete in. You have to show up to each one of them, and just because you won the other one, I remember, you know, finishing the, the Olympics in London, you know, getting a silver medal, and in five days, I had to be in Canada to play a, play a pretty big tournament. And I didn't even get a hug from my manager. He's already asking me what flight I wanna be on. And just before the Olympics, it was Wimbledon. Two weeks before that, it was the French Open. So as much as you wanna think about, "Yes, this is my moment. I need to win this one," there's always something around the corner. And it's also a little bit sad because you, you don't always have the time to reflect and appreciate what success really looks like in your own career.

9. 14:54 – 17:18

   Rethinking the Serena Williams rivalry: from icy distance to public respect

   1. AGAdam Grant14:54

      So let, let's talk about what you've rethought since you retired from tennis. At least publicly you've rethought is your relationship with Serena Williams because, uh, a lot of people have seen the, the media portrayal of the two of you as, as rivals, and there seemed to be some animosity or, or even iciness early on. Pretty much anyone who followed tennis over the last quarter century was shocked to see you, you win a major award and Serena present it to you. What happened?

   2. MSMaria Sharapova15:21

      Yeah. So Serena was my opponent since I was 16 years old until the very end, and she got the better of me in most of the matches we played. And, and it was fierce. I mean, she amongst many other women stood in the way of championship trophies that I wanted to win, and, and it wasn't a secret that we weren't friends for many years. We'd say hello. We'd ask, "How are you?" But it was very much on the surface. When I got, um, inducted into the Hall of Fame, they, they had asked me, you know, if there's anyone I can think of, sometimes it's a coach, sometimes it's a family member, that would introduce me, and the first person I thought of was Serena. I knew it would, it would shock everyone. I knew that the moment would be impactful if she was by my side. Because of that rivalry, because of the things we've occasionally said about each other, knowing that we'd be on stage together and sharing a moment of respect and acknowledgement, and we've always had this quiet sense of respect for each other because we knew what it takes to win on center stage. But to share that moment publicly and acknowledge each other's success and put aside all that negativity and form a bond, I think it was a really strong statement. I mean, uh, it's, it's very rare that you get to reflect on your career and your victories, but to do it alongside someone that you've shared the court with, and you've had some of the, the best victories and some of the toughest losses in your career just made it extra special.

   3. AGAdam Grant16:57

      Yeah, it was amazing to see, and I, I think it was one of those rare cultural touchstone moments where people say, "Wow. If those two can bury the hatchet and become so close, maybe there's hope for some of the relationships that I wrote off too."

   4. MSMaria Sharapova17:10

      Mm-hmm.

   5. AGAdam Grant17:11

      I asked Serena about it, and she said, "You know, of course, you know, part of the rivalry was we were pitted against each other."

   6. MSMaria Sharapova17:18

      Yeah.

10. 17:18 – 22:25

    Why similarities can divide rivals: boundaries in a zero-sum individual sport

    1. AGAdam Grant17:18

       And you, you obviously spoke to that. She also said something else that I thought was interesting. She said, "I, I think part of it was we're just a lot alike."

    2. MSMaria Sharapova17:26

       [laughs]

    3. AGAdam Grant17:27

       How are you similar, and how did those similarities actually work against the two of you bonding?

    4. MSMaria Sharapova17:32

       Hmm. We actually had a, a similar upbringing where our fathers were such big role models in our career and coached us through so many Grand Slam victories and until the very last day of our careers were very much involved. So that family dynamic was always there. I mean, I look back to, uh, the video of that Wimbledon final in 2004 where my dad and, and Richard are, are hugging, and it always gives me goosebumps because there's So many things come together in that moment, years of tears, of the grind, of sacrifices, years of the unknown, and you put so much time and you invest so much mentally, physically, financially with no guarantees of the future. And, and in that moment, these two fathers come together and just pay respect to the journey. So I'll start with that. That's a very strong foundational similarity. We came from very humble beginnings. We didn't come from a lot of money. We didn't come from a lot of resources. And also not many people believed in us when we were young. You know, I... Not many people believed that Serena or Venus could get to the top. Not many people thought that I had, you know, the, the physical, the athletic attributes to get me to the top. Not a lot of people invested in u- in us financially at the very beginning. So, I mean, that's... How much more? [laughs] Should we keep going? [laughs]

    5. AGAdam Grant19:00

       No, that's-

    6. MSMaria Sharapova19:01

       There's a-

    7. AGAdam Grant19:01

       I mean, that's a lot. And-

    8. MSMaria Sharapova19:02

       Yeah

    9. AGAdam Grant19:02

       ... you know, I guess then the, the, the follow-up question is w- what is it about those similarities then initially drives you apart as opposed to bringing you together? My, my first hunch is it's, it's obviously, you know, in a lot of ways, sports is zero-sum, as-

    10. MSMaria Sharapova19:16

        Mm

    11. AGAdam Grant19:16

        ... as you alluded to. In order for you to win, Serena had to lose a lot-

    12. MSMaria Sharapova19:20

        Mm-hmm

    13. AGAdam Grant19:20

        ... of the time and vice versa. Does that mean, [laughs] like the more you have in common, the more it feels like, "Well, that's my niche," like, "Do, do not-

    14. MSMaria Sharapova19:27

        Mm

    15. AGAdam Grant19:27

        ... do not take it from me"?

    16. MSMaria Sharapova19:28

        I mean, it is the reality of an individual sport. I knew I had to set those boundaries because that's what worked for me. It was very difficult for me to be in a Grand Slam final against someone that I would potentially have dinner with. I knew that I wouldn't be able to compete as fierce as I would if they weren't my friend. But that's... I mean, there's many different ways to do it. I knew that that is some- that's the way that worked for me, and it did. And so, I mean, I, I was very lucky. I formed friendships away from tennis, and I always went back to them, and they are, they were the very foundation of my, my life, of, of just normalcy in my life when my life was upside down or my life... It wasn't a normal upbringing. I didn't have a traditional upbringing, so my friends were rooted in just being a normal human being. And I also thought it was a, a healthier friendship than having someone that I'd see every single day and that I would compete against.

    17. AGAdam Grant20:27

        That, that's so interesting. I never thought about it this way, but yeah, of course, when you're competing against someone, you don't wanna feel any ambivalence about beating them. [laughs] You, like, you don't, you don't wanna worry you might feel bad-

    18. MSMaria Sharapova20:37

        How they feel

    19. AGAdam Grant20:38

        ... if you won. [laughs] Yeah.

    20. MSMaria Sharapova20:39

        Yeah.

    21. AGAdam Grant20:39

        That, that-

    22. MSMaria Sharapova20:40

        Yeah

    23. AGAdam Grant20:40

        ... that seems reasonable. And then, okay, the more similar you are, the greater the risk is that you can really empathize and relate to what they're going through when they lose.

    24. MSMaria Sharapova20:49

        Mm. I think as you... Like, when you're an athlete, and I'm, I'm sure you, you've... there are moments where you felt like that as, as a diver, is you have so many responsibilities as a young athlete, and you can't think of them all, including how your opponent will feel after you beat them. It's just [laughs] there's, there's just too much to focus on. There's too many other important things that take priority over that.

    25. AGAdam Grant21:15

        I think that makes sense. And you know, it's interesting how many rivalries have followed similar trajectories. I, I think, like it looks to me from afar like Chris Evert and Martina Navratilova, very similar dynamic. I, I mean, their relationship ended, right, early on after they-

    26. MSMaria Sharapova21:29

        Mm

    27. AGAdam Grant21:29

        ... played doubles together essentially, and they, they didn't seem to communicate much, and, and now they're like sisters. I think about, [laughs] like Magic Johnson and Larry Bird are another example of that.

    28. MSMaria Sharapova21:38

        [laughs]

    29. AGAdam Grant21:38

        And you know, it's, it, it's kinda interesting, like, okay, looking back, you, you grew up with your rival. Like, of course-

    30. MSMaria Sharapova21:45

        Mm-hmm
11. 22:25 – 23:37

    Do rivalries fuel motivation? Sharapova’s take vs rivalry research

    1. AGAdam Grant22:25

       There's a great body of research on rivalry led by Gavin Kilduff, which shows that... Well, it shows a bunch of things. One is that we're more motivated when we're competing against our rivals than we are against other opponents. Another kinda interesting pattern that jumps out at me is that the joy of victory is greater when we beat a rival, but also the agony of defeat seems to be greater, too. [laughs] Lo- lo- love to hear you react to that.

    2. MSMaria Sharapova22:48

       I guess so. I don't... Ugh, that's a hard one, Adam, because I don't... I never really allowed the reality of a tennis match make me feel worse because it is someone that perhaps I liked less than others. It, it wasn't really, um... It wasn't a motivating factor that I wanted to beat them because, I don't know, they got a contract that I wanted to get, or I'm just, I'm making up silly examples. But I always thought of winning as this is, this is for me, this is for my family, this is for my team, this is something that I've done since I was a young girl, and that matters. Like, there's so much depth and velocity in that, that outweighs anger or rivalry you might have against someone.

12. 23:37 – 26:24

    Lightning round: youth sports focus and dream doubles match picks

    1. AGAdam Grant23:37

       That makes sense. All right, it's time for a lightning round. Are you ready?

    2. MSMaria Sharapova23:41

       I mean, I don't know. [laughs]

    3. AGAdam Grant23:44

       [laughs] Maria Sharapova cracks under the pressure of the lightning round.

    4. MSMaria Sharapova23:47

       Mm. I can already see it, the artwork with, like, a lightning.

    5. AGAdam Grant23:51

       [laughs]

    6. MSMaria Sharapova23:51

       Boom. [laughs]

    7. AGAdam Grant23:52

       Here we go.

    8. MSMaria Sharapova23:53

       Okay.

    9. AGAdam Grant23:54

       Um, okay. Fir- first question is what is the worst advice that you see given to young athletes?

    10. MSMaria Sharapova24:01

        I see a lot of parents take their kids to so many different activity. There's swimming, there's art, there's soccer, there's American football, there's gymnastics, and it kinda becomes a maze where you're just going from one place to another. At a certain point in, in a young child's career, if there is talent, if there's interest, if there's passion and excitement about something, you do have to hone in on it. Everything that you choose to do around it has to complement the activity that your child is interested in. And what does that mean? That might mean taking them out of a social circle that they're very excited about or, you know, an inconvenient time to which they have to go and they don't have enough time to rest. So there are a lot of inconveniences when it comes to growing a particular interest or a passion, um, in someone's career. And so I think the least distractions you have, the better.

    11. AGAdam Grant24:58

        Okay, you get to play a doubles tennis match with anyone on earth, alive or dead. Who would you want as your partner and who are you playing against?

    12. MSMaria Sharapova25:06

        Okay. I'm gonna throw you a little curve ball and say, oh, boy. Okay, I'm gonna say David Hockney. Do you know the artist David Hockney?

    13. AGAdam Grant25:17

        No.

    14. MSMaria Sharapova25:17

        David Hockney just seems like such a cool spirit, and I just think we'd have a lot of fun. And against, I'll say I'd like to play against, uh, Madonna.

    15. AGAdam Grant25:27

        Ooh. And who's her partner?

    16. MSMaria Sharapova25:28

        Oh, she has to have a partner? Um, I'd say Michael Jordan.

    17. AGAdam Grant25:32

        Oh, wow. Why Michael Jordan, and why Madonna?

    18. MSMaria Sharapova25:34

        Michael Jordan is the first person that I got, like, starstruck from. We had arrived at an airport terminal together, and he came out of the car, and I'd never, like, experienced, like, that type of fame before.

    19. AGAdam Grant25:47

        I, I don't know if a more competitive human being has ever lived.

    20. MSMaria Sharapova25:50

        Yeah.

    21. AGAdam Grant25:51

        That-

    22. MSMaria Sharapova25:51

        [laughs] That's true.

    23. AGAdam Grant25:52

        Just would be interesting to have that on the other side of the court, right?

    24. MSMaria Sharapova25:55

        The will to win.

    25. AGAdam Grant25:56

        Yeah.

    26. MSMaria Sharapova25:56

        Yeah.

    27. AGAdam Grant25:57

        Yeah. We, we know that he's played a lot of ping-pong. I don't know how that translates to tennis, but presumably-

    28. MSMaria Sharapova26:01

        Not great

    29. AGAdam Grant26:02

        ... he's coordinated enough. [laughs]

    30. MSMaria Sharapova26:03

        Apparently ping-pong makes you work- worse at tennis.
13. 26:24 – 34:21

    Why people won’t let athletes be ‘more than one thing’—and the Li Na lesson

    1. AGAdam Grant26:24

       So bring it on. Okay, office hours time. So this is the part where you get to play podcast host and-

    2. MSMaria Sharapova26:30

       Oh

    3. AGAdam Grant26:31

       ... ask me a question of your choosing. You can take it wherever you wanna go.

    4. MSMaria Sharapova26:34

       Yeah.

    5. AGAdam Grant26:34

       But if you have a curiosity, a challenge, a puzzle, a mystery.

    6. MSMaria Sharapova26:40

       Okay. No, I have one.

    7. AGAdam Grant26:41

       Choose your own adventure.

    8. MSMaria Sharapova26:42

       When I was younger and I was an athlete for many years and established myself as the number one player in the world, I wanted to shift some of my focus, not all of it, but I wanted to shift it into business. And I wasn't always respected for that decision from the outside world. I wasn't given that confidence or allowed to tap into something that really interested me and I felt like I could be competitive in. Why do you think we don't allow individuals to be more than one thing?

    9. AGAdam Grant27:14

       Oh, that's a good question. Yeah, why do we, why do we typecast people and sort of limit them to one lane? I think there are probably a few factors at play. The first one is we, we assume that excellence is all-consuming. If, if you wanna be the best in the world at anything, especially a sport where there are so many talented people, like ten- tennis is not... Uh, oh, what do I wanna throw under the bus here? Tennis is not diving. I'm gonna throw my own sport under the bus, right? [laughs] Like, there, there aren't millions of kids who grow up thinking like, "Yeah, I wanna be Greg Louganis one day," right? Where there, whereas there are millions of kids thinking, "I wanna grow up and be Maria Sharapova one day." I think that we just look at that and assume that if you wanna be at the top of your game, you have to sacrifice everything else. And of course, we know life is not that zero-sum. We know that actually having outside hobbies is a source of energy. It builds your confidence. It can actually give you new skills, and I think that, you know, that, that's just a misconception. I think the second thing is there's a, there's a self-threatening component of it. Wait a minute. If you can be the best in the world at tennis and a successful business person, what does that say about me? I'm doing my job full time, and I'm not, I'm not that successful at it. And I think people have a hard time confronting that reality that somebody [laughs] can have their attention and energy divided and still outperform them at each of those activities. And I think people cope with that threat by rejecting the possibility that, in fact, you could succeed in multiple domains. What do you-

    10. MSMaria Sharapova28:41

        Is that an element of jealousy?

    11. AGAdam Grant28:43

        Yeah. I think it's... You know, it's interesting actually. I, I would've said it's envy. I think about envy as, "Well, I want what you have, and I wanted to be good at that thing." But, you know, the fact that I can't be a world-class athlete, I cope with that by saying, "Well, you know, at least I'm, you know, I'm succeeding in a career that is a great fit for me." Wait, you're, you're succeeding in my career. How dare you?

    12. MSMaria Sharapova29:05

        Do you think it's more prevalent in women than men?

    13. AGAdam Grant29:08

        Oh. Oh, yeah. So [laughs] I mean, let, let's talk about the gender component. But, but first, I just wanna, I wanna react to the jealousy comment 'cause I didn't think about it, but there is an element of jealousy too, which is you're taking something from me, or you're potentially taking something from me, which is my self-esteem. I mean, we have now decades of evidence that particularly men are especially threatened by the success of women, and there's a sense of precarity that comes along with that. I think winning a masculinity contest is about proving your strength. It's about proving your superiority, and the idea that a woman could come along and outperform me in multiple domains, that's a major assault. It's an affront on, on manhood. There's a... I don't... I, I'm sure you read psychology journals for fun in your spare time, but-

    14. MSMaria Sharapova29:53

        All the time. [laughs]

    15. AGAdam Grant29:54

        [laughs] Jennifer Bosson and colleagues have, have a body of research on precarious manhood, and they, they basically highlight how the challenge of masculinity is that it's hard to win and it's easy to lose. You, you have to be competing all the time to prove it. And similar to trust, like, it takes all this effort to build up and earn, and then one fail and you've completely compromised it all. And I think that the image of a highly capable woman unfortunately evokes that insecurity in a lot of men.

    16. MSMaria Sharapova30:26

        Mm-hmm.

    17. AGAdam Grant30:27

        What do you think?

    18. MSMaria Sharapova30:28

        Um, I look back at, I think we grow from our own experiences, and there was, there was a moment in my early 20s when I had the same manager since I was 11 years old, and he was full-time focusing on my career all... I mean, it started as doing my visas as a young girl to signing my first big contract with Nike, and then it became in my investment portfolio and so on. But in my early 20s, he signed another female player. She was a Chinese player, and she was coming up in the ranks. And if I'm being honest, it did not make me feel good. First, because it was taking his time away from focusing on, you know, my career to now, wait, there's somebody else in the mix. Two- fast forward two years later, she wins a Grand Slam, and the girl I'm talking about is Li Na. She becomes one of my toughest opponents, an incredible player, especially on, on clay courts. And not only does she take his time, but she becomes one of the highest earners in sport, in all of sport. And I had this really tough conversation, uh, with, with my manager saying, "You know, I thought, I thought it was just you and I. Like, we've, we've been at this from the very beginning." And the words he said to me impacted, like, the rest, the, the way that I think about deals and the way that I think about business, is he said, "Her fame will only make you bigger and better and will only make you bigger deals." I look back at that moment, and he was so right because she became... I mean, our sport became more international because of her. We gained five to eight tournaments in the Asian market. We'd never tapped into that market for our sport. Our sport grew considerably after her victory because of her success, and it just, it shifted my perspective. Who I thought was getting in the way of my contracts, you know, and my financial gains and my victories on court only made me a better competitor and honestly only made me richer.

    19. AGAdam Grant32:33

        [laughs] Yeah. Uh, I mean, I think that's, that's a great example of how as soon as you step off the court, things are not as zero-sum as they seem. They actually turn out to be positive-sum. I tell people this all the time about books. Like [laughs] , I'll, I'll get asked from time to time, "Do, you know, does it bother you that, you know, maybe there's another author out there who outsold you in your genre?" I'm like, "Well, first of all, it depends on the quality of their work." [laughs] If I think their work is not good, I might be a little annoyed. Like, I never, I never worry about that or feel envy about it because people reading is good for, for, one, it's good for the world, and two, people reading is, is good for books. And it sounds like having another [laughs] highly successful tennis player in your orbit, like, yeah, it amplifies the sport. That's a win for everybody-

    20. MSMaria Sharapova33:16

        Mm-hmm

    21. AGAdam Grant33:16

        ... who loves the sport.

    22. MSMaria Sharapova33:17

        Which is hard to recognize when you're young. When you're a young athlete, you know, especially in individual sport, it's so easy to be selfish about your own success, and it's hard to think about the bigger picture. Like, when I was saying about the bigger picture, the sport as a whole. You know, you're such a small little particle of a bigger identity, and if there's someone in the mix that is, that is growing this global force and is making you better and a better player and, you know, more commercially successful, then bring it on.

    23. AGAdam Grant33:48

        I, I think that's something we need to reinforce, especially as kids are growing up. I, I just read some research showing that high exposure to sports actually reinforces kind of a zero-sum, win-lose mindset, and it leads people to approach the whole world as if like, "Oh, I have to be better than others, and I have to make sure that other people fail if I wanna succeed." And [laughs] like, wait, first of all, like, did you forget that you have a team? [laughs] And making your team better is good for you. And secondly, like, there's, there's way more win-win in the world than there is win-lose. Like, let's not lose sight of that.

    24. MSMaria Sharapova34:20

        Exactly.

14. 34:21 – 35:48

    No comeback plans: a healthy exit and excitement for new life chapters

    1. AGAdam Grant34:21

       Okay, I have one more question for you before we wrap.

    2. MSMaria Sharapova34:23

       Okay.

    3. AGAdam Grant34:24

       All right. So Alison Felix recently announced that she's training for the 2028 Olympics. Question is, are you next?

    4. MSMaria Sharapova34:31

       I'm not. Sorry to burst that bubble. [laughs]

    5. AGAdam Grant34:35

       No- you haven't even, you haven't even thought about it?

    6. MSMaria Sharapova34:37

       No. Zero. There's no fire in my belly to reengage that mental muscle. Mental or physical.

    7. AGAdam Grant34:45

       Wow. In some ways I'm sad to hear it. In other ways-

    8. MSMaria Sharapova34:48

       [laughs]

    9. AGAdam Grant34:48

       ... I'm also happy for you [laughs] that you don't-

    10. MSMaria Sharapova34:51

        Are we ending this on a sad note?

    11. AGAdam Grant34:52

        ... you don't feel like you've lost a part of yourself.

    12. MSMaria Sharapova34:54

        No, I, I think to flip that around is I've... I, I feel like I had a very healthy departure and a very healthy relationship with, with my career, and it's always, it's one of the most difficult decisions I've had to make. And I know it's on a different scale to maybe other decisions that women have to make, whether it's choosing their first job or entering a new workforce after having a baby. All equally important decisions. I knew it was difficult, but I knew in my gut that it was the right one, and I feel very confident and comfortable about it, and I'm, I'm very excited to explore the, the other chapters that life now has to offer.

    13. AGAdam Grant35:35

        We're excited to explore them with you.

    14. MSMaria Sharapova35:36

        Thank you, Adam. [outro music]

Episode duration: 35:57