Silicon Valley GirlGodmother of AI: In 10 Years There Will Be Only 2 Kinds of Workers
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
40 min read · 7,646 words- 0:00 – 4:47
Intro
- MMMarina Mogilko
This is why I think a lot of people are scared. I thought university was like a path to career
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
I think the word entrepreneurial is very much a synonym to agency. Agency is the key in the face of a technology that is so cognitively advanced. Get familiar with that technology
- MMMarina Mogilko
Fei-Fei Li built the data that made modern AI possible. Now she's raised one billion dollars to build what comes next, and she's teaching all of this in her new Masterclass, AI's Future and Yours. David Roger turned Masterclass into a 2.75 billion dollar company, teaching people from the world's best. Today, they're both watching the same shift, and they have a lot to say about it
- DRDavid Rogier
It's a gap that's widening and increasing. If somebody's using AI, they're able to get tremendously more done that they never have before. We aren't gonna have to work anymore.
- MMMarina Mogilko
Universal basic income, yeah
- DRDavid Rogier
Yeah, we're just gonna get paid to, to chill
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
Time of change could be a time of loss
- MMMarina Mogilko
What does it look like? What should people be preparing for?
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
Loss of old habits, loss of sense of steadiness, but that's also a time of opportunity. It's a opportunity for-
- MMMarina Mogilko
You are running companies these days, multiple. What are you seeing? What are the biggest shifts happening?
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
Uh, my world is very much AI. So I think the... I get to experience really the f- the, the, the cutting edge of where the technology is pushing. Uh, it's just, I cannot tell you how exciting this moment is. The technologists, the entrepreneurs, and in- including product people, uh, business people are all recognizing this, uh, just really sea change of how, uh, AI can now be used to, to rethink business, to rethink applications, and, you know, it just feels... I've been in Silicon Valley for 17 years. Uh, the energy is just, I've never seen this before. Even 10 years ago, I did not feel that level of excitement.
- MMMarina Mogilko
That's, that's amazing, and I feel like everyone's working more. David, would you agree with that? What's happening in your company?
- DRDavid Rogier
It's a gap that's widening and increasing. If somebody's using AI, they're able to get tremendously more done, and they feel a sense of agency that they never had before. If they're still nervous to or haven't been trained to, you are seeing that, that gap increase. One of the, the most interesting things I think that you talk about is that it seems like the world is split between all this is godlike and gonna have a, and, uh, save the world, and the other half of people are like, "This is the de- this is the devil and gonna destroy everything."
- MMMarina Mogilko
Very polarized society right now
- DRDavid Rogier
Very polarized. And I think one of the things that you talk about and have shown is that that is not a healthy approach or maybe is, is, isn't the best designed approach, and that if you actually, uh, you should share this more with me, but it, but it, but if you actually try to figure out what are the best aspects of it and how do I use it to actually help people, we might be able to get the best of both worlds. You asked early about tools.
- MMMarina Mogilko
Yeah
- DRDavid Rogier
And I think, I was thinking about it. If you asked me, like, a couple months ago, I would have listed, you know, Claude and ChatGPT and all the big tools. I have now found that most of the apps I use I built.
- MMMarina Mogilko
Hmm.
- DRDavid Rogier
And I built them with Claude Code-
- MMMarina Mogilko
Mm
- DRDavid Rogier
... or with Codex.
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
Good point. Very good point
- DRDavid Rogier
And, and, and I think this, first of all, that's, like, amazing to me because now is, like, if my was l- if, like, my CEO stack is all apps that I've built that are-
- MMMarina Mogilko
It's called Davidify, right? I've read something like you've built your own custom-
- DRDavid Rogier
Oh, yeah, I created d- a Davidify-
- MMMarina Mogilko
Da- Davidify [laughs]
- DRDavid Rogier
... and I gave to my team, which is like-
- MMMarina Mogilko
That's so cool
- DRDavid Rogier
... if you're trying to write something in my own voice-
- MMMarina Mogilko
Yeah
- 4:47 – 8:57
David's CEO playbook
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
Yeah. That's a very good point.
- MMMarina Mogilko
If an employee comes to you and says, like, "I really wanna start using AI," what would you tell them? Like, where do they start? What, what, what is the task? 'Cause I've heard some of the, uh, some entrepreneurs ask their employees to just vibe code their dashboard, for example.
- DRDavid Rogier
Yeah.
- MMMarina Mogilko
Do you have, like, a go-to thing?
- DRDavid Rogier
I don't like vibe coding a dashboard because when somebody vi- vibe codes a dashboard, it's only in the front end of the dashboard.
- MMMarina Mogilko
Mm-hmm.
- DRDavid Rogier
It's never tied back to the actual inputs. So, like, it's great for, like, an hour, but then it, like, stops working because they haven't tied it back to everything most of the time.
- MMMarina Mogilko
[laughs]
- DRDavid Rogier
Um, when they wanna learn AI, I have found if they're asking that que- if they're asking that question, they are hesitant to try it on their own.
- MMMarina Mogilko
Mm-hmm.
- DRDavid Rogier
There's something that's holding them back.
- MMMarina Mogilko
Mm-hmm.
- DRDavid Rogier
And so what I do in those cases is, like, and, like, sometimes I, I, I worry this is, like, a waste of my time, but I, I've learned it's not. I will sit down with them or in groups of two or three, and I will show them a basic task, like, deep r- like, on research.
- MMMarina Mogilko
Mm-hmm.
- DRDavid Rogier
And, like, I'll walk them through it-
- MMMarina Mogilko
Mm
- DRDavid Rogier
... like, step by step, and- In some ways, I feel like that's a waste of my time because I'm like, "You could watch a YouTube video on this that's may- way more effective than I am." What I found is there's something about me doing it with them that then there's something that, like, unlocks that they then go soar on their own. So I don't know if it's somebody walking over, if they feel forced to do it because I'm the CEO and I'm making them do it, or that, like... But then the act of walking them through it, then they are unlocked to go do it, and they can do lots more things.
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
Yeah. I-- Thank you, David, for, for really bringing the, the complexity of reality. That is something that I observe, and frankly am concerned because I think the public discourse of AI is so polarized. We have to look at the upside, we have to look at the downside. But the public discourse right now is not like that. It's either total utopia, it's gonna, you know, uh, save the world in every way-
- DRDavid Rogier
We aren't gonna have to work anymore
- MMMarina Mogilko
Universally speaking.
- DRDavid Rogier
Yeah, we're just gonna get paid to-
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
Yeah
- DRDavid Rogier
... to chill.
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
Or, you know, this, this thing about FAI. It, it's so bad. It's gonna just ru- displace all jobs. It's gonna, um, take away all human agency. And these two extreme is very dangerous. I generally believe it's a technology. That means it's a tool. It's a very powerful tool, but i- it's a tool that humans can wield-
- MMMarina Mogilko
Mm-hmm
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
... to help make things better. But we also have to be very, very vigilant about how to use the tool. We teach kids how to use tools, from fire to, to knives, to, um, you know, the internet. Now we have to learn that as a species, as a society. And the most important discourse is missing, and that's the discourse of the nuanced middle-
- MMMarina Mogilko
Mm-hmm
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
... is what this tool is. How can we use it for good? How should we avoid the pitfalls? And how do we go forward as a civilization with this civilizational tool?
- MMMarina Mogilko
The AI agents you're building right now, they don't understand each other. Your sales agent closes a deal and learns something about the customer. Your support agent picks up the same customer an hour later and starts with zero context. That knowledge just vanishes every single time. Outshift by Cisco published a white paper this year called Scaling Out Superintelligence. Their argument, the biggest bottleneck in AI right now isn't bigger models or smarter agents, it's making them work together better. They're calling the solution the Internet of Cognition. Shared intent, shared context, shared reasoning across all your agents at once. There is a live demo at outshift.com, five use cases. You can watch the agents reason together in real time. If you're building anything with agents, read the paper and try the demo because they are working on this future right now. Links are
- 8:57 – 12:38
If the cost of intelligence goes to zero, what happens to your career?
- MMMarina Mogilko
in the description. And it's a revolutionary tool. I feel like it's the, it's the first tool that is-- So industrial revolution automated our physical labor, right? Here, we're kind of automating our intelligence, and this is why I think a lot of people are scared because they're like, "Oh, I thought university guaran--," n-not guarantees, but it's like a path to career. Now, if the cost of intelligence goes to zero, I don't know, like, what's gonna happen? What do you think?
- DRDavid Rogier
One things I learned from, from, from you was that right now when we talk about AI, it is language-based. That, to use your phrase, is like lossy. It, it is-- You aren't gonna learn how to drive a car with words. You aren't gonna learn how to shoot a basketball with words. And, uh, so I think we're still in a, like, V1 of AI, and I think this fear is a little overhyped because AI, it's, doesn't have a set of its own values. It's our val- it's our values. And so I think that means an opportunity for us to design and shape it. Do you wanna share your thing? I thought it was really neat, the thing you did with the doctors and they're washing their hands.
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
[laughs] Uh, yeah. So I, I agree with David. First of all, industrial revolution did not automate labor. It, uh, it made labor more efficient.
- MMMarina Mogilko
Mm.
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
It scaled up labor. It did, um-- it has shift of the labor market, but it did not automate labor. And also, we cannot imply labor is not intelligent. That is really-
- MMMarina Mogilko
Mm
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
... really a wrong premise. You know, physical labor, cognitive labor, emotional labor, human activity is deeply intertwined with human intelligence, which is still very much a, an, an unsolved mystery in, in nature. We don't know the depth and nuance of, uh, human intelligence. So, uh, claiming, I know you're not claiming, but anyone out there claiming that, uh, intelligence, the cost of intelligence goes to zero, it's just a irresponsible claim-
- MMMarina Mogilko
Mm-hmm
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
... because human intelligence is so deep. As David said, in addition to, uh, the more familiar language intelligence, we also have, uh, uh, perceptual intelligence, spatial intelligence, physical intelligence-
- MMMarina Mogilko
Emotional
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
... emotional intelligence. Uh, we don't have a grasp on creativity, where that comes from. Everybody's creativity comes from different parts of their, not only their brain, but their holistic, uh, uh, life. So I think we need to be very careful of these reductive claims. I do agree that language intelligence, the LLMs, the derivatives of LLMs are incredibly powerful. You know, they're helping business intelligence. They're helping, uh, software engineering. They're helping Deductive, logical reasoning and even deeper tasks that, uh, we're, we're now seeing agentic use of language and software intelligence. All this is im- im- important, but it is nuanced. It is, uh, it's complex. It's... A lot of it can be powerfully collaborative with human intelligence, but I would not use words like automating human intelligence or intelligence goes to zero. I am very concerned about that kind of rhetoric.
- 12:38 – 16:23
Mass layoff headlines vs. reality: what's actually driving AI fear
- MMMarina Mogilko
The exact rhetoric that's causing people to be so anti-AI.
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
Yeah.
- MMMarina Mogilko
'Cause what they see, they see headlines of mass layoffs and like, "We don't need you anymore," that type of stuff, and this is what's causing this negativity.
- DRDavid Rogier
But the answer isn't in those cases to say, "I'm gonna avoid using AI," or that, "I'm not gonna use it." I think the answer is you grab the tool, and then you figure out how I'm gonna design it better or how I'm gonna improve... I'm gonna, I'm gonna improve the tool. Or some of your work in hospitals, if you take, if you take a job, a job is actually, like, a whole set of tasks.
- MMMarina Mogilko
Mm-hmm.
- DRDavid Rogier
And I think one of your arguments is there's some tasks that you do in your job that you probably don't like. Your example, I remember, was a nurse has to chart-
- MMMarina Mogilko
Mm-hmm
- DRDavid Rogier
... all their notes.
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
Doctors too.
- DRDavid Rogier
And, and doctors. I have never met a nurse that's like, "You know, the job, the part of my job I love the most-
- MMMarina Mogilko
Charting. [laughs]
- DRDavid Rogier
... is charting."
- MMMarina Mogilko
Yes. [laughs]
- DRDavid Rogier
Like, that is not why they got into the professional field. So, I think the avoidance is the wrong way, but I also think, I agree with you, I think it will-- if we look at any technological shift, it's always ended up in net more jobs. The issue is just who gets those, who is it that actually gets those jobs? But the people who don't get those jobs are the people who do not adapt to it.
- MMMarina Mogilko
Yeah.
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
Mm-hmm.
- DRDavid Rogier
Right? And if you don't adapt, the outcomes are very bad. So if you look at the past with the advent of the computer, of the spreadsheet, what happens if you don't adapt is you lose your job, your lifetime income drops by over a fifth-
- MMMarina Mogilko
Mm
- DRDavid Rogier
... and your mortality rate in the first year doubles.
- MMMarina Mogilko
Mm.
- DRDavid Rogier
Like, it actually hurts your health. And-
- MMMarina Mogilko
That's crazy stats.
- DRDavid Rogier
It's cr- and so the answer isn't to go into a hole. It's to push yourself to explore and improve the tools.
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
Yeah, I-
- MMMarina Mogilko
Mm
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
... I totally agree with David. I, I think some of the words we talked about deserve to be highlighted. Uh, you used the word agency. We talk about collaboration and empowerment. I think that, that's it. That's the core meaning of any technology, including a so-called god-like technology like AI, is it, it should be human-centered. And what does it mean? Human-centered is just a phrase. In the-- to me, the simplest but the most profound, um, meaning of human-centerness is really empowerment to humanity, to, to i-i-i-including individuals, communities, and society, and that is the meaning of this technology. Which brings up this point that David said, is that it's a time of change. Time of change could be a time of loss, loss of old habits-
- MMMarina Mogilko
Mm-hmm
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
... loss of comfort that we were familiar with for the past decades, uh, loss of sense of steadiness. But that's also a time of opportunity.
- MMMarina Mogilko
Mm.
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
It's a opportunity for what's coming next. It's an opportunity for what we can make better. And how do you cross that boundary between the time of confusion and loss to time of, uh, uh, of opportunity as a individual? It is really a responsibility of each one of us to learn, embrace, upskill, be intellectually open about this opportunity, and that goes to the core of every human journey. Whether you are a K12 student or you're already a professional, we have to embrace
- 16:23 – 21:23
What AI can and can't do right now
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
this together.
- MMMarina Mogilko
Yeah, and but also, w- to your point of change, it's happening so fast, faster than ever. Uh, can you tell me, like, if we take AI today, what type of tasks it can do already, what is still very human, and what's gonna happen in a year? So, how fast is it moving?
- DRDavid Rogier
I mean, I think in education, it's having a tremendous impact. The biggest obstacle, uh, I'll sh- I'll share. So, we know from the last 60 years that the best way for somebody to learn is one-on-one instruction.
- MMMarina Mogilko
Mm-hmm.
- DRDavid Rogier
So the question has to be asked, why do we sit in cl- in classrooms of 20 people, of 300 people? It's simply cost.
- MMMarina Mogilko
Mm.
- DRDavid Rogier
It is too expensive to provide a Dr. Li to every person in the world, even though that would be amazing. I would-
- MMMarina Mogilko
That would be awesome
- DRDavid Rogier
... s- I would sign up for that.
- MMMarina Mogilko
[laughs]
- DRDavid Rogier
Um, and so with AI, though, from the work that's been done in the last couple years, we now know that AI can provide that personal level of instruction that is almost as good as that. It is f- so much better than learning in a classroom, than reading just a book on it. So then the question-- And now you're able to provide that same education, the one where you sat in a cl- in elementary school classroom for $12,000 a year. You're now... Or, or a school for $80,0000 a year once you're, you know, undergrad. You're able to provide that same education for about $100.
- MMMarina Mogilko
Mm-hmm.
- DRDavid Rogier
So the question has to be asked: When are we gonna see that, that change in our own education? I think the biggest obstacle is not the, the tech
- MMMarina Mogilko
The biggest obstacle is the institutions that are afraid of the, afraid of that change. But I think what's gonna happen, we know that if you use AI to learn, you're able to learn the same things in 60% less time.
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
Mm-hmm.
- MMMarina Mogilko
So if school says, "I'm gonna ban AI, I'm gonna ban my kids from using AI," and another school allows them to use AI in a structured way, those kids that use AI are gonna be far ahead of the kids that don't. Now, that's not a replacement for everything. You still want the in-person interaction, all the social bonds, but I think you're gonna start to see a divergence in kids where one group that has opened AI is learning at a much faster rate than everyone else, and I think that's bad. And so I think it's not a tech issue, but I think what's gonna happen is those schools that do not adapt in 10 years, they're gonna be di- they aren't gonna exist 'cause they're gonna be so far behind.
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
And also, their world will be changing so fast because of AI, like what David said. A part of it, they should be changing. I also adamantly believe every school, every classroom should embrace AI. Every student should be embracing AI. But I also believe that we have a collective responsibility to include them, especially the teachers and, and educator, educational adminis- administrators, in this discourse of AI and, and, uh, show them what is a viable path that, um, maintains the goal of educations. The goal of education is not a tool. The goal of education is not closed-book or open-book exams.
- MMMarina Mogilko
Mm.
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
The goal of education is not standardized test scores. The goal of education is, is, uh, building humans-
- MMMarina Mogilko
Mm-hmm
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
... and so that every individual is a meaningful contributor of their community and society and lead to a meaningful life. And this AI should not be taking any, any of these fundamentals away, but AI should help to achieve this goal much better, much more effectively. And, uh, and this polarized, e- extremely simplified binary conversation about AI is for cheating or not, uh, closed-book, take away AI, uh, it is just not where we should be. We should be looking at how we empower teachers, how we empower students, how we restructure our classrooms, how we rethink about examinations, how we rethink about standardized tests, how we rethink about college administ- uh, admissions, how we rethink about, uh, resource distribution. There is a technology that's lowering costs and barriers, so how we can resource our inner cities, our rural areas, our, you know, globally, Global South. These are really important, more important topics of AI and education-
- MMMarina Mogilko
Absolutely
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
... um, that we're, we're
- 21:23 – 25:25
What does a company look like in 10 years?
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
missing that conversation.
- MMMarina Mogilko
You know what I think will help this conversation? Because when I'm thinking about my kids' education, I want to imagine a workplace where they're gonna be. Uh, so when I was growing up, the workplace is big company, you're doing this-
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
Yeah
- MMMarina Mogilko
... and so in order to get there, you need to study this, this, and that. Can you paint me a picture of a workplace or a company in 10 years? What does it look like? What should be people be preparing for?
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
Agency. I think AI will give people more agency. So, um, a lot of the, a lot of the future of work, I think, will rely on people who knows, who know how to use these tools, uh, in very effective way. So let me give you a concrete example. We- one of the very coveted jobs in Silicon Valley in the past 20 years is product manager. You know, there's a lot of conversations of the shifting nature of product management job. It used to be, um, 10 years ago, fairly standard product manager's job is more, uh, the thread between, uh, users, markets, and engineers. They're more like, uh, conductors. They don't have to code. They- Fairly often, they were not software engineers. So if they want a prototype, they go to a designer, they go to a software engineer, they get a prototype, and then they s- they send the prototype to users and, uh, and, and they listen to the users and, uh, and, uh, uh, synthesize the feedback. And that life cycle of, uh, product management might take w- w- typically months, you know, in, in a company. Today, if you look at the job of product manager, actually, a lot of companies are experimenting with different things, but there are some fundamental changes. A lot of product managers just now codes themselves.
- MMMarina Mogilko
Mm-hmm.
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
They don't have to wait, uh, to prototype from a team of people. They can use AI to help t- to design something very simple and, and, and vibe code. So that part shortens the life cycle. Doesn't mean we, we, we should get rid of designers or software engineer, but it just saves time, and so that software engineer and designers can do much more sophisticated work. Also, user side, things are shifting. AI can actually simulate user behaviors, and there are much, um, um, much ef- more efficient ways to reach to the users, to, to close the loop with users. So I'm looking at these young product managers, and when I, uh, look to hire them, I look for those who are riding the, uh, the wave of changes. I don't look for those product, uh, uh, managers who are still talking about the textbook, uh, workflow-
- MMMarina Mogilko
Mm-hmm
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
... of even five years ago. So what I think the future of companies, there's a lot to imagine, and depending on the company, from healthcare to, to, um, um, education to whatever industry. But I think our workforce will be much more empowered or can-
- MMMarina Mogilko
Yeah
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
... be much more empowered by powerful tools like AI. So that personal agency, creativity, and also the boundaries of what peop- a, a person can do and cannot do is just a lot more blurred and lowered-
- MMMarina Mogilko
Yeah
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
... lowered. So to me, um, that's gonna just fundamentally shift the structure of corporate America. And, and, um, um, every student today should try to imagine who they wanna be in that new structure.
- 25:25 – 28:39
The barbell effect: specialist vs. high-agency generalist
- MMMarina Mogilko
Most people use Claude like a search engine. They type in a question. They get an answer. Most times they're not really satisfied with it, and they close the tab. I did the same thing for months, and I was looking at people who were saying AI is changing their life, and I'm like, "Hmm?" Then I spent one afternoon setting it up properly, uploaded a few files about how I think and how I work, and it completely changed. I wrote the whole process up step by step. You get it when you subscribe to my newsletter, Future Proof. It's free. The link is in the description. It feels like you're describing entrepreneurs within workspace, or you're like, either you're an entrepreneur, or you're an entrepreneur with an organization, which means you're handling multiple things and you're responsible for multiple things.
- DRDavid Rogier
I mean, my hypothesis on this, you will get a barbell effect, and this is what we are seeing at Masterclass, where you have one group that are becoming the specialists.
- MMMarina Mogilko
Mm-hmm.
- DRDavid Rogier
And it used to be, like I remember in school, like I was told to pick one area and just go deep in that, and that's how I build a long-term career. I think that's eroding, except if you're in the top one, if you're, like, the actual best. What I mean by this is if I'm a copywriter, if I'm an okay one, anybody that now uses an LLM can do a decent job at that.
- MMMarina Mogilko
Mm-hmm.
- DRDavid Rogier
But if you're the best in the world at it or if you're in the top 1%, I can't beat you at it.
- MMMarina Mogilko
Mm-hmm.
- DRDavid Rogier
And so we're seeing, A, the rise of people that are specialists that are very good at their thing, and I think that extends to tons of crafts. And then the other role we're seeing is this high-agency generalist-
- MMMarina Mogilko
Mm
- DRDavid Rogier
... who's able to do lots of different things well and has good on- has really good skills on the judgment side-
- MMMarina Mogilko
Mm-hmm
- DRDavid Rogier
... on the agency side. And those people, when you see them interact, is really neat because they then interact with somebody who's in the top 1% at their craft, and they're like, "Whoa, I couldn't do that."
- MMMarina Mogilko
Mm-hmm.
- DRDavid Rogier
Right? And I... So I- my guess is that it's a bifurcation of those specialists and the people that can do lots of things well.
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
That's interesting, and I, I agree with you. I think both, whether you're on the specialist side or generalist side, you both have agency.
- DRDavid Rogier
Yes, that's-
- MMMarina Mogilko
Yeah.
- DRDavid Rogier
That, I think that's certainly a good way-
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
And, and you should both be able to use tools in ways-
- DRDavid Rogier
Yes
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
... that's uniquely creative and deep, right? I'm already seeing this, right? Um, for example, designers, you know, they, they bring so much human creativity, but I see some of them use all kinds of AI tools i- in ways I cannot personally imagine. So I know that's where their craftsmanship comes.
- MMMarina Mogilko
Yeah.
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
And also the word entrepreneurial, um, in Silicon Valley, that's almost like, "I'm gonna do a Delaware incorporated-
- MMMarina Mogilko
[laughs]
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
... startup." And that's the label entrepreneur, and I disagree. I think the word, word entrepreneurial is very much a synonym to agency.
- MMMarina Mogilko
Yeah.
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
You know? It's, it doesn't matter. You can be a doctor, special- specialty doctor. You can be a K12 teacher. Uh, but agency is the key, and, uh, in the face of a technology that is so cognitively advanced,
- 28:39 – 31:11
The tools that actually changed how Fei-Fei Li works
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
uh, have... Ha- be brave. Have your human agency and command that technology. Use that technology. Get familiar with that technology. Don't be afraid. Don't shy away from it because that's where the, the, the wheels of history is turning towards the future. And I think everybody, it doesn't have to be a Silicon Valley founder, everybody can be entrepreneurial for their craftsmanship or whatever they wanna do.
- MMMarina Mogilko
You mentioned so many tools, like use tools, use tools. Can you give me example of some of the tools that have been transformational to your job?
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
Obviously, all kinds of, um, from ChatGPT to Gemini to Claude, I use it in many different ways. They have so many features from helping me to, um, study some deep topics or to have a conversation. Uh, here's a, here's a fun example. I'm in charge of laundry in my household.
- MMMarina Mogilko
[laughs]
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
So every weekend, I have to do loads and loads of laundry. And, uh, it used to be my audiobook time, but sometimes, um, sometimes I get bored just listening to audiobook. And, and just about a few month ago, I realized I could have a conversation of a deep topic with AI as I was just-
- MMMarina Mogilko
Mm
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
... folding laundry, and that has been so much fun. Somehow it's more, even more motivating for me to go fold laundry 'cause I can have me time with, with AI-
- MMMarina Mogilko
[laughs]
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
... to learn anything I want. And, uh, um, I, of, of course, software engineering has been completely transformed. And also, you know, on the art and design side, um, I mean, World Labs, we are creating, um- Models f- to help our creators and to imagine 3D worlds and all that, so we also see change in the creative world. Uh, once again, that's also a very contentious area because some companies have positioned AI's creative tools as if it's a replacement, and I just deeply, deeply protest that positioning. I, I think that human creativity, even just on the visual side, human creativity is so vast, but even just on the visual design side is profoundly intertwined with our emotional intelligence, with the story we bring, with the values
- 31:11 – 39:10
What is spatial intelligence
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
we bring, uh, each, uh, creators bring. I just think AI is such a powerful tool to help them solicit-
- MMMarina Mogilko
Enhance us, yeah
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
... their, um, you know, express their creativity instead of to replace it.
- MMMarina Mogilko
Totally.
- DRDavid Rogier
Do you feel AI can never be very smart until it figures out spatial intelligence?
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
Yeah, so this is the work I'm doing now in World Labs. So what is spatial intelligence? Spatial intelligence is a, a term that encompasses multiple abilities today that humans, uh, display in a, in a environment like this one, 3D environment. If we look at movement, we call it 4D environment. We can understand what's going on. I see people, I see equipments, I see this beautiful home. This is the understanding part of spatial intelligence. We can reason. If I wanna go and, um, you know, um, go grab a, a bottle of water in the fridge, I have to reason about the space, reason about, uh, I can go up the staircase, I can recognize the fridge. I reason about my movement, so that's reasoning. Uh, that's another part of spatial intelligence. A third part of spatial intelligence is gen- generation, is that in my mind's eye, even though I'm not seeing the, your living room, but I actually have a view of what that living room looks like. If I'm a more, more, a better artist, I can actually generate a lot of, um, visual 2D or 3D or, or 4D visual artifacts and pieces, so humans can generate a lot of space. And the fourth, uh, last but not the least, a part of visual intelli- uh, sorry, spatial intelligence is interactivity, is how I focus on, um, interacting with the space, right? Like how, uh, again, laundry folding, that's my favorite, uh, uh-
- MMMarina Mogilko
[laughs]
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
... weekend activity these days. Uh, that's deeply spatial.
- MMMarina Mogilko
Yeah.
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
How you fold each piece of garment, and how you hang them in the, the closet and, and all that is highly interactive. So spatial intelligence is these four things, understanding, reasoning, generation, and interaction. And, uh, we are working on that. We, we have made tremendous progress. I'm, I'm saying collective we. Uh, you know, today you use, say, uh, NanoBanana, or if you use GPT Image, uh, that tool can actually help you to generate a lot of 2D imagery. It can actually explain to you what unknown flower is in your garden. Uh, that understanding is, is quite advanced. It can helps you, help you to reason. Now we can actually, uh, draw figures in, in AI tools. Um, the, uh, the generation part, right now the m- more mature products are on the 2D side. What World Labs is doing is on the 3D side. 3D is so fundamental for robotic interaction, for truly controllable creativity such as design, architecture, game development, uh, VFX. So that's the piece we are working on.
- MMMarina Mogilko
Is it separate from LLMs? Like, I mean, do LLMs have their limit and then world models step in?
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
Uh, yes and no. I think they're complementary. Uh, you can think about humans, right? Just as you were saying, to, to put a basketball in the, um, hoop. First of all, that's such a fast action that people don't, like, sit there and think and talk in their head. But I do think that is a... Even that act itself is a highly complex, intelligent moment where, uh, language reasoning come in because you probably, as a athlete, you are, you are acutely aware of the scoring this or missing this, what it means to the game or to the moment, and some of that is probably going on in a language way. But seeing the court, seeing the other players, and, and aiming the ball, that is deeply spatial. And then orient, orienting your body, like knowing how to make that move is deeply physical. So, so many things we do in life is actually a mixture of language, linguistic ex- uh, intelligence, spatial intelligence, and physical intelligence. So to me, they're very complementary. They work together. Uh, I do deeply believe spatial is a huge piece of it. Evolution took 500 million-plus years to get spatial intelligence to maturity. It took march- a much shorter time for language intelligence. So it's a very profound, ancient, uh, fundamental- Intelligent capability of animals and humans
- MMMarina Mogilko
And how far are we from, uh, understanding the fullness of it, like 100% of-
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
Wow. I- [laughs] As a scientist, I never know what's 100%.
- MMMarina Mogilko
Mm-hmm.
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
Because science itself is pushing the boundaries of unknown. The, the, the... If the goalpost is human intelligence, the challenge is we don't even know how far human intelligence is, right? Um, we, we, we never know the, the boundary of human intelligence. But, uh, if you think the daily capability of humans, the average capabilities-
- MMMarina Mogilko
The laundry folding. [laughs]
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
Right. The, the, the, the, the cooking omelet, the, the laundry folding-
- MMMarina Mogilko
Mm
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
... the playing basketball, um, how far are we? We're not there yet. But is it gonna take 100 years? I don't think so. My, my goal is we could get there in my lifetime.
- MMMarina Mogilko
Mm-hmm.
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
And I think a lot of people are working on that, so that put a, kind of a bound, right? Uh, I don't think it will take 100 years. It might not even take 50 years, but it's not gonna take one year-
- MMMarina Mogilko
Mm
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
... either.
- MMMarina Mogilko
Well, what, what is your estimate? When does Dr. Fei-Fei Li retire from laundry folding on Sundays? [laughs] How many years?
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
Yesterday. [laughs]
- MMMarina Mogilko
[laughs]
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
Um, like I said, I don't know.
- MMMarina Mogilko
Mm-hmm.
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
Uh, the, uh, laundry folding itself is also, uh, involves physical embodiment, so that's, that, that also involves sensor technology and, uh, hardware technology, so that, that, and so that goes a little bit more complex. Um, but again, I'm hoping it's our lifetime.
- 39:10 – 45:52
How to build agency in yourself
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
it's not scientifically rigorously clear what the G means here.
- DRDavid Rogier
[laughs]
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
Right? So but whatever. That's just a word that we, we can, uh, it's just a nickname, I guess. Um, yeah, I agree with you, David. I think AI, our intelligence, is complex. I, I, I don't think the picture of AI will be complete without spatial intelligence.
- MMMarina Mogilko
So we mentioned agency so many times today. David, as someone who runs an educational company-
- DRDavid Rogier
Yeah
- MMMarina Mogilko
... what would be your advice for people who want to work on their agency? How do you even teach your kids agency?
- DRDavid Rogier
It's a really good question. The research, I've looked into it a lot, is not quite there yet. So we don't know exactly how to do it. We have hypotheses, and if you break down agency into f- into individual parts, we the- we then have clues for it. So for example, we know to be able to feel safe to actually take risks i- is an important part of it. We know that being able to fail and learn from those is, is, is a big part of agency. We know the resilience to get back up is really important part of it. Um, we know that there's a curiosity in the world that's also a really big part of it. There's also things of, like, fundamental needs to want to solve a thing or to impress someone, which isn't necessarily the best traits, but those things dri- if you need to solve a problem or issue, or whatever's gonna drive you to t- to solve that, is gonna help you, force you to find agency. I think the research I've seen is much more on the qualitative side of what drives agency, things people will say. Um, and there's some evidence for this. It's just weak. It's you wanna, you wanna put yourself in places that are gonna be hard and new for you.
- MMMarina Mogilko
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
- DRDavid Rogier
So you wanna get... And that starts as a kid, right? You wanna be in a world that you have the fundamentals of love and food and sleep and mental health are provided for you there. Um, we know also that you can incentivize it, too. So I think, you know, uh, we have done things where you get additional comp if you do this thing. Comp does push you to do things on it.
- MMMarina Mogilko
Mm-hmm.
- DRDavid Rogier
Um, but agency itself, from my own experience, so much of life in society, we are taught to seek praise. If you think about as kids, praise from our moms and dads.
- MMMarina Mogilko
100%. Yep.
- DRDavid Rogier
School.
- MMMarina Mogilko
School.
- DRDavid Rogier
Praise from our instructors. Um, jobs from our bosses. And having agency and that, to your point, that entrepreneurialism that isn't just for entrepreneurs, it's almost a rejection of that societal value or push to be praised. I remember when I started Masterclass, everybody told me it was an impossible idea and a bad idea. And that was really hard for me, for somebody who sought praise for most of my life. And then but then what I had to realize and change was to if you have an idea that everybody thinks it's good, it's probably not a good idea.
- MMMarina Mogilko
Hmm.
- DRDavid Rogier
And that you actually, to have agency and to be an entrepreneur, you have to chase what other people think is actually impossible. And then now as an entrepreneur, when somebody says something's impossible, I'm like, "Ooh."
- MMMarina Mogilko
You're like, "Oh, that's what I'm gonna do." [laughs]
- DRDavid Rogier
"Ooh, like, I'm gonna dive more into that."
- MMMarina Mogilko
Yeah.
- DRDavid Rogier
Right? And so I think it's, like, a fundamental shift, and it comes from a lot of things that, like, I wish I knew if I teach you these four things, you're now gonna have high agency. It's more complicated than that.
- MMMarina Mogilko
Yeah.
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
Totally. I think you said it beautifully. Yeah. I-
- MMMarina Mogilko
Uh, you have this aspect of... which I, I feel like is an aspect of agency, independent thinking. You wrote this, uh-
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
Mm-hmm
- MMMarina Mogilko
... Substack where, um, you're teaching people to, like, switch everything off, make your own decisions, but... and, um, generate your own thoughts. What I feel like as someone who's been taught to respond to praise, it's so scary. 'Cause if it's contrarian to-
- DRDavid Rogier
It's hard to turn off, yeah
- MMMarina Mogilko
... most of your friends, and you, like, come out with this opinion, and they disagree with you, how do you train that muscle? 'Cause it feels so important for agency as well.
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
I... Wow, this question goes into the heart of family values. How do I personally train that m- muscle for, for me, my kids, my students, is, um, is everything David said. It's encouragement, is, uh, is, um, um, you know, as simple as don't be lazy. [laughs] I know that people my generation lament about there's too much internet, there's too much social, there's too much AI. I actually have a contrarian view. Um, I think our new generation, our n- next generations, I'm actually a little envious of them because I think their world is much more heterogeneous, that if you're used to being on Twitter/X, you're used to being on Insta or s- uh, TikTok, you start to realize the, the world is full of voices-
- DRDavid Rogier
Yeah
- 45:52 – 49:03
The easiest way to start with AI if you feel completely lost
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
um, used to encourage, um, young generation to, to reexamine the century they're living in. And this is a century of a lot of tools that can give you agency. This is a century of your voice matter more than anybody else's voice if you believe in that, and that's very different from our generation.
- MMMarina Mogilko
Do you have anything like that, like an unlock for people who are curious about AI, just starting?
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
So, so first of all, if it's narrowly about my employee, I, I mean, I l- I-
- DRDavid Rogier
They probably aren't working for you anymore.
- MMMarina Mogilko
Yeah. [laughs] If they're not using AI, they're not there.
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
They probably know more AI than I do.
- MMMarina Mogilko
[laughs]
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
So, so that's just a moot question for a deep AI tech startup like World Labs. But I do wanna, uh, turn that question to talk to those who are, um, more in the public, especially the generation right now who you're already professionals. You, you are teachers, nurses, you know, accountants, whoever you are, and, um, and the public discourse, like we said earlier, is so polarized. You don't really, other than anxiety, you don't really know how you can get to AI. I think I do wanna encourage, um, people who feel that way, is that, um, find a kid, either your own kid or your nephew or your niece, that they are likely to be younger than twenty-five year old. Almost all of them are already using AI-
- MMMarina Mogilko
Hmm
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
... in some way. And, uh, be curious. Ask them to just show you how they use AI. And, uh, don't worry about this as a technology, but be curious about the future world that they will live in, your kid will be living, your grandkid will be living-
- DRDavid Rogier
Mm-hmm
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
... your student will be living in, and try to just imagine that you're gonna take that journey into that world anyway, and they can be your guide.
- MMMarina Mogilko
Yeah.
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
And just not worry about the, "I never learned computer science," or, "I don't know which app I can open." Just let the young person in your life who you already trust or have a relationship with hold your hand f- for a weekend or for, for a session and show you that this is a world that's not that scary if you actually know what it is, and it can be empowering. And if you do find it troublesome, if you do find it, uh, imperfect, by knowing it, by knowing where these issues are, your voice can be heard better.
- MMMarina Mogilko
Absolutely.
- DRDavid Rogier
Yeah.
- MMMarina Mogilko
I think that's an amazing ending to this. Thank you so much. Stay curious, develop your agency, work on it, and thank you so much for your input and for your work.
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
Thank you.
- MMMarina Mogilko
Thank you.
- FLDr. Fei-Fei Li
Thank you.
Episode duration: 49:04
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