A Rebel With a Cause (and a Cone) with Jeni’s Ice Cream Founder Jeni Britton | A Bit of Optimism

1. 0:00 – 1:29

   Gen X riffs on music, mixtapes, and why Jeni’s is a “mixtape for the world”

   1. JBJeni Britton0:00

      You know, whether it was, like, driving around listening to Metallica and just, like, getting r- revved up to go-

   2. SSSimon Sinek0:05

      You listened to Metallica? Metallica?

   3. JBJeni Britton0:06

      I mean, I grew up in Ohio. Slayer, Metallica, all of that.

   4. SSSimon Sinek0:08

      Oh my God, that's changed my whole image of you.

   5. JBJeni Britton0:09

      You know, of course, um-

   6. SSSimon Sinek0:09

      You're like this nice little-

   7. JBJeni Britton0:11

      Right

   8. SSSimon Sinek0:11

      ... you know, Oh- Midwestern absolute nonsense. You're h- you're heavy metal.

   9. JBJeni Britton0:15

      Oh, all of it, you know.

   10. SSSimon Sinek0:16

       I did like Def Leppard.

   11. JBJeni Britton0:18

       Oh, well, yeah, sure. Um-

   12. SSSimon Sinek0:19

       Just Pyromania, just the one album.

   13. JBJeni Britton0:21

       That was great. Yep.

   14. SSSimon Sinek0:22

       [laughs]

   15. JBJeni Britton0:22

       Yeah. I mean, you know, that was, that was fun.

   16. SSSimon Sinek0:23

       We've lost... Do you realize there's a whole generation that we just- they've tuned out of what we're talking about now?

   17. JBJeni Britton0:27

       [laughs] Yes.

   18. SSSimon Sinek0:28

       My next guest and I are both Gen X. We're both from a generation when we made mixtapes, manually, on tape. We'd spend days crafting our playlists. You needed to have a vision. You needed to know who you were making the mixtape for. You needed to have something to say. They took so much time and energy. To make one was actually an act of love, which is a perfect segue to introduce my guest, because a great mixtape is actually a perfect metaphor for true entrepreneurship. Jeni Britton started Jeni's Ice Cream after she dropped out of art school at 22 years old. And more than great ice cream, that brand has helped transform the whole category. With flavors like bramble berry pie and powdered jelly donut, you can actually taste her creativity. Jeni didn't follow a playbook. She did it her way. So what does this have to do with mixtapes? Simple.

2. 1:29 – 4:01

   Flavor as creativity: cardamom love and “weird pairings” that work

   1. SSSimon Sinek1:29

      Jeni built her business with love, and her business is her mixtape for the world. This is A Bit of Optimism. This episode is brought to you by Porsche, which, if you like German engineering, this is about as good as it gets. Jeni's is, uh, famous for its flavor, so let's start with flavor. I think cardamom is completely underappreciated as a flavor and as a spice.

   2. JBJeni Britton2:03

      Thank you for saying that. I totally agree with you, 100%.

   3. SSSimon Sinek2:07

      [laughs]

   4. JBJeni Britton2:07

      100%. And, and people are actually afraid of cardamom, and so I don't know why, because it seems... It's so beautiful when you just open it and smell it. I mean, I use it in my oatmeal. I use it in baked goods. It's so beautiful.

   5. SSSimon Sinek2:19

      Everything.

   6. JBJeni Britton2:20

      Yeah.

   7. SSSimon Sinek2:20

      I am an experimenter, and I just add things to things just for whatever, and so let's trade off ridiculous things that shouldn't go together that go get together that you discovered just by being creative, okay?

   8. JBJeni Britton2:33

      Oh, yeah. Okay.

   9. SSSimon Sinek2:34

      Do you wanna go first, or shall I go first?

   10. JBJeni Britton2:35

       Go. You go first.

   11. SSSimon Sinek2:36

       Okay. I sprinkle cinnamon on eggs. Fried eggs.

   12. JBJeni Britton2:40

       Interesting. Okay.

   13. SSSimon Sinek2:41

       Fried eggs.

   14. JBJeni Britton2:42

       I can see it.

   15. SSSimon Sinek2:42

       Uh, scrambled eggs, just eggs, I sprinkle cinnamon, salt, pepper, cinnamon on eggs.

   16. JBJeni Britton2:46

       Salt and pepper and cinnamon?

   17. SSSimon Sinek2:48

       Salt and pepper. Salt and pepper, because that's the base.

   18. JBJeni Britton2:49

       I like it. Okay.

   19. SSSimon Sinek2:50

       And then I add cinnamon to eggs.

   20. JBJeni Britton2:51

       Yeah.

   21. SSSimon Sinek2:52

       It is spectacular.

   22. JBJeni Britton2:53

       I love it.

   23. SSSimon Sinek2:53

       Doesn't make it taste like a pancake. Doesn't make it taste like anything else. It's just great, 'cause cinnamon can be on sweet things or on savory things.

   24. JBJeni Britton2:59

       It really can.

   25. SSSimon Sinek3:00

       It's magical.

   26. JBJeni Britton3:01

       It is, and it's in, like, Cincinnati chili. I'm from Ohio, so it works. Yeah, definitely.

   27. SSSimon Sinek3:06

       Okay.

   28. JBJeni Britton3:06

       Oh, I love that. I'm still go- I'm still on ice cream a little bit, 'cause that's just my-

   29. SSSimon Sinek3:09

       Okay

   30. JBJeni Britton3:09

       ... that's the lens for me in my brain. But it'll get to other things. But I really... I will say, one of the things I always said, that mint is hard to pair. Like, because in-
3. 4:01 – 6:09

   Why start an ice cream business at all? The original epiphany and the hidden difficulty

   1. SSSimon Sinek4:01

      Of course. It'll ruin everything. Yeah. So I, I guess we should probably get into serious stuff. Your journey's amazing. Um, a lot of people wanna start businesses. Not many people redefine businesses, and you sort of had a huge impact in the ice cream business, as a lot of people know, um, bringing crazy, um, experimental flavors to the, to the industry. What made you want to do it as a business? Business is hard, and food business is really hard.

   2. JBJeni Britton4:27

      Mm-hmm.

   3. SSSimon Sinek4:27

      And I think a lot of people have entrepreneur- entrepreneurial dreams and entrepreneurial ambitions, but it's... This is a very difficult business.

   4. JBJeni Britton4:37

      It's brutal. Uh, business is brutal. It's a brutal place to, to exist, and there's a lot of... I mean, I love it, and it's also really hard.

   5. SSSimon Sinek4:45

      But you had the idea. It starts with an idea.

   6. JBJeni Britton4:46

      It starts with an idea, which I had. It changed my life. It was an epiphany, this idea. I was trying to be a perfumer, and I realized that ice cream could be a great carrier of scent, so I started to use farmers market ingredients and steeping it in cream. So even, like, a, an inexpensive vanilla would be considered, it's a scent. So I had the idea. The idea was, was, was interesting, and I thought, also, I thought all of the ice cream around me, and I'm from Ohio. I'm from the Midwest. I'm from Peoria, Illinois, and Columbus, Ohio, and so ice cream is something we do all the time. It's just constantly having ice cream, especially at night before bed, you know, if you have a date, whatever. But I felt like all the ice creams was, like, for kind of, like, a nostalgia, so grandparents and grandchildren. So I thought, "Well, what about for people like me who wanna go on dates and, like, you know, be somewhere that has good lighting, you know, and, and cute and fun and, and discovery flavors or whatever?" So I had this idea, but the biggest thing is I did not know how hard business would be, because I was isolated. Columbus is not a small city at all, but I was, the way that I was brought up was not through business. It was through art. I had been studying art. But everybody in my family had little businesses, so I did not ever think I couldn't do it.

   7. SSSimon Sinek5:52

      Mm.

   8. JBJeni Britton5:52

      I also grew up in the city where there were entrepreneurs in the city, and so I would follow them, and I knew I had an entrepreneurial spirit since I was very young. I was always doing little businesses as a kid. It just never occurred to me not to do it.I didn't know how hard it would be, would be the shortest answer.

   9. SSSimon Sinek6:05

      Mm-hmm.

   10. JBJeni Britton6:06

       And it's a good thing, you know? And I mean, it was a really good thing because, um-

4. 6:09 – 7:48

   Bootstrapping reality: survival, SBA loans, and building customer-by-customer

   1. SSSimon Sinek6:09

      Define hard. Hard expensive, hard hours, hard how do you figure-

   2. JBJeni Britton6:13

      I, it's survival

   3. SSSimon Sinek6:14

      ... solve this problem?

   4. JBJeni Britton6:15

      It's just survival. You know, it is, um, get to the next day, you know? And especially, you know, I think that one of the reasons actually that I was good at it was because I could survive longer than anybody else off of less, you know?

   5. SSSimon Sinek6:27

      Yeah.

   6. JBJeni Britton6:27

      And I'm still that way, you know? I can still live off the land in a way that I think people think they're gonna be rich right away-

   7. SSSimon Sinek6:36

      Yeah, yeah

   8. JBJeni Britton6:36

      ... or they're gonna have... They're gonna go raise money, make... You know, we make business all about raising money and not about-

   9. SSSimon Sinek6:39

      Yeah

   10. JBJeni Britton6:39

       ... customers.

   11. SSSimon Sinek6:40

       Did you do it with a, with a raise or did you bootstrap?

   12. JBJeni Britton6:42

       No, it was just, um, the SBA, um, getting loans.

   13. SSSimon Sinek6:46

       Old school.

   14. JBJeni Britton6:47

       And eventually I raised money, but not until at least 15 years in.

   15. SSSimon Sinek6:50

       Okay, so it was already a-

   16. JBJeni Britton6:51

       At least

   17. SSSimon Sinek6:52

       ... it's already a thing.

   18. JBJeni Britton6:52

       It's already a brand.

   19. SSSimon Sinek6:53

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   20. JBJeni Britton6:53

       It's already a thing. We already have an ethos. We already know what we're doing. You, you know.

   21. SSSimon Sinek6:57

       It's an interesting question. I wonder if your form of entrepreneurship, uh, which is, you know, getting a bank loan, and, like, there are systems that exist-

   22. JBJeni Britton7:04

       Mm-hmm

   23. SSSimon Sinek7:04

       ... to raise money. I wonder if, um, if that is a dying breed.

   24. JBJeni Britton7:10

       I think it is, and I, I am always out talking about start small and build entrepreneurship.

   25. SSSimon Sinek7:13

       Mm-hmm.

   26. JBJeni Britton7:14

       That's what I call it. It's, like, one big bunch of words, but I still believe that in America anybody can start where they're at and build anything they can imagine.

   27. SSSimon Sinek7:22

       Mm-hmm.

   28. JBJeni Britton7:22

       And if... And, and that's the work. I mean, that's what we should be as a country. I still believe it is possible. It is really hard, and it's not what we're showing.

   29. SSSimon Sinek7:30

       Mm.

   30. JBJeni Britton7:30

       So if somebody wants to start a business, they see, oh, we have to know somebody, raise money, have some kind of status.
5. 7:48 – 9:15

   The anti-VC argument: scale obsession and the disappearing middle of entrepreneurship

   1. SSSimon Sinek7:48

      My sort of lamentation, I guess, is there was a time where, where, where people said that if you worked for a public company, that was the worst because of all the pressures from Wall Street for companies to do the wrong thing, et cetera, et cetera, that weren't in-

   2. JBJeni Britton8:00

      Mm-hmm

   3. SSSimon Sinek8:00

      ... the company's employees' or customers' interest, just in the shareholders' interest. But so many companies now are venture-backed or private equity-backed-

   4. JBJeni Britton8:08

      Yeah

   5. SSSimon Sinek8:08

      ... that the pressure from the investors, the private investors, is as aggressive if not more aggressive than Wall Street. So you have the same pressures in a private company to grow at all costs. And growth is the goal, not survival.

   6. JBJeni Britton8:21

      Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

   7. SSSimon Sinek8:22

      Right? Not great product, not something that can outlast the founders, just short-term growth. And the amount of pressure... You, you and I both know some of the investors, and we... I will bring them, uh, great ideas, not mine, but, like, I'll be like, "I got a great..." And they're like, "It's not scalable."

   8. JBJeni Britton8:40

      Mm-hmm.

   9. SSSimon Sinek8:40

      "It's a great business-

   10. JBJeni Britton8:41

       Mm-hmm

   11. SSSimon Sinek8:41

       ... but it's not scalable."

   12. JBJeni Britton8:42

       Well, nobody would've thought my idea was scalable, by the way.

   13. SSSimon Sinek8:44

       But they don't wanna invest in anything that doesn't-

   14. JBJeni Britton8:45

       Yeah

   15. SSSimon Sinek8:45

       ... have immediate scale.

   16. JBJeni Britton8:47

       Yeah.

   17. SSSimon Sinek8:47

       And so it makes me wonder, are there an, an entire class of entrepreneurs that probably won't bother because somebody's talked them out of it because, quote-unquote, "It's not scalable," or they can't get venture and so they think it's not viable, and/or they don't know that there is such thing as a small business loan or credit card debt or friends-

   18. JBJeni Britton9:04

       Mm-hmm

   19. SSSimon Sinek9:04

       ... and family or bootstrapping, you know, all of these old-fashioned ways of, of getting cash infusions to build a business. I'm wondering if that form of entrepreneurship is just going away.

6. 9:15 – 11:14

   Entrepreneurship as rebellion: taking risks, not “working for the money”

   1. JBJeni Britton9:15

      I think it is, but I think it always is ready for a resurgence because it, it'll be a rebellion, and that is actually what entrepreneurship is, is a rebellion, right?

   2. SSSimon Sinek9:23

      Ooh.

   3. JBJeni Britton9:23

      That is literally what it is.

   4. SSSimon Sinek9:24

      Say more.

   5. JBJeni Britton9:25

      I- if you take money from someone, you work for them.

   6. SSSimon Sinek9:28

      Right.

   7. JBJeni Britton9:28

      You're not an entrepreneur in my mind. Like, an entrepreneur is taking risks. They are rebelling against the system. They are say- They're planting a flag and saying, "I'm gonna take a stand for something that doesn't exist, and I'm gonna do it." And eventually, if you... Once you start to get good at it, you have to earn your team. People start to want to help you. People start to come to your team. That's kind of the way I think of it.

   8. SSSimon Sinek9:48

      Hmm.

   9. JBJeni Britton9:48

      So I don't wanna work for somebody else. Like, that would be really challenging for me. It would've been when I was in high school. It was when [chuckles] I was in high school. I've always been told I'm a nice person, but you know what I mean? I've never, you know-

   10. SSSimon Sinek9:59

       I, oh, yours says on all your school reports, you know-

   11. JBJeni Britton10:01

       Literally

   12. SSSimon Sinek10:01

       ... "Jeni doesn't do as she's told."

   13. JBJeni Britton10:02

       "She's patient, she's kind, but she can't follow the rules."

   14. SSSimon Sinek10:04

       Right. [laughs]

   15. JBJeni Britton10:06

       Um, which is like curiosity is just that.

   16. SSSimon Sinek10:09

       Yeah.

   17. JBJeni Britton10:09

       You know? So yeah, so I think that that's where it will come from. Um, you know, it's like, and all these people who are, have these great little coffee shops and, you know, they inspire the kids in their neighborhood, but it won't-

   18. SSSimon Sinek10:20

       And they're viable businesses

   19. JBJeni Britton10:20

       ... come from... Yeah, absolutely. And people make, you know-

   20. SSSimon Sinek10:22

       Not every business has to be scalable.

   21. JBJeni Britton10:24

       Well, absolutely. I mean, there's this coffee shop upstate that I'm absolutely in love with, and they are open from, like, you know, whatever it is, 8:00 to 2:00 every day, and that's it. And they are only open, like, I don't know, they're not open three days a week. You know, they, they... Like, it's a fantastic life.

   22. SSSimon Sinek10:39

       Hmm.

   23. JBJeni Britton10:39

       I mean, it's hard.

   24. SSSimon Sinek10:40

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   25. JBJeni Britton10:40

       It's hard to go to one location every single day. I did that for 10 years at Jeni's. It is hard. For me, I have to have a bigger vision.

   26. SSSimon Sinek10:47

       Mm, mm.

   27. JBJeni Britton10:47

       I like to be challenged in that way. But also, I started in a farmers market, and around me there were... There was the flower lady, [laughs] you know? The poultry people, you know, the butcher, and all of those people had been there for years, decades.

   28. SSSimon Sinek11:00

       Hmm, hmm.

   29. JBJeni Britton11:00

       And they're still there now-

   30. SSSimon Sinek11:01

       Hmm
7. 11:14 – 13:31

   From farmers market to validation: salted caramel (accidentally) becomes a cultural trend

   1. JBJeni Britton11:14

      And I had this vision. I mean, literally I saw Ben & Jerry's and I was like, "Okay, I can do that, too." You know, I start putting salt in our ice creams, in, in our caramel kind of early on. It was actually a mistake. And all of a sudden, you know, the Vogue magazine people are there. And, you know, Jeffrey Steingarten, who used to write the food there, like, came to visit because he, he was very interested in that idea. And, uh, the people from Häagen-Dazs are sending their people, and they're in their shirts that say Häagen-Dazs. And I'm thinking like, well, if there was ever a validation-

   2. SSSimon Sinek11:40

      Right

   3. JBJeni Britton11:41

      ... that we can be bigger.

   4. SSSimon Sinek11:41

      It's that Häagen-Dazs is stealing your flavors.

   5. JBJeni Britton11:43

      Yeah, or just that we can grow.

   6. SSSimon Sinek11:44

      Salted caramel is now a thing.

   7. JBJeni Britton11:45

      It's huge.

   8. SSSimon Sinek11:45

      [laughs]

   9. JBJeni Britton11:45

      And salty... 'Cause mine was actually a mistake. Salted caramel is the way everybody makes caramel in America.

   10. SSSimon Sinek11:50

       Right.

   11. JBJeni Britton11:50

       It's just always got a little salt in it. But me not being able to travel, lis- I was working in a French bakery. I didn't know anything about the world. I was... I would spend all the time in the library just reading about various places and, like, um, a French chef from Brittany was like, to me, very heavy accent-

   12. SSSimon Sinek12:06

       Uh-huh

   13. JBJeni Britton12:06

       ... "The, the caramel is salty." And I thought he meant, like, Swedish licorice.

   14. SSSimon Sinek12:10

       Right.

   15. JBJeni Britton12:11

       Like, it was salted licorice. And so I started making caramel like that I thought was authentic-

   16. SSSimon Sinek12:16

       With lots of salt

   17. JBJeni Britton12:16

       ... with a little extra salt-

   18. SSSimon Sinek12:18

       Yeah

   19. JBJeni Britton12:18

       ... than what we were used to-

   20. SSSimon Sinek12:19

       Yeah

   21. JBJeni Britton12:20

       ... in America, which is, like, just basically what would be a salted butter-

   22. SSSimon Sinek12:23

       Right

   23. JBJeni Britton12:23

       ... um, in France. So, so yeah, yeah. And so now it's-

   24. SSSimon Sinek12:25

       So it's basically his poor grammar-

   25. JBJeni Britton12:27

       Yeah, exactly

   26. SSSimon Sinek12:27

       ... you invented-

   27. JBJeni Britton12:28

       Yeah

   28. SSSimon Sinek12:28

       ... an entirely new thing.

   29. JBJeni Britton12:29

       Yeah.

   30. SSSimon Sinek12:29

       [laughs]
8. 13:31 – 15:44

   Who should start a business? When the vision starts leading you

   1. SSSimon Sinek13:31

      So I, I, I, I'm gonna regret this question. I don't even like the sound of the question coming out of my mouth, but I'm gonna ask it. Is there a formula [laughs] for who should and who should not start a business?

   2. JBJeni Britton13:43

      Um, well, I don't know. I, I wanna say it's for anybody, but I also think that there are people who love to step into a team, do their part, and go home. When I was young, I thought everybody would think like me. We all think that.

   3. SSSimon Sinek14:00

      Yeah.

   4. JBJeni Britton14:00

      Everybody thinks like... I mean, I started when I was 22, so it was like I was just gung-ho and ready and excited and whatever. I thought everybody'd be like that, and it took me actually probably longer than it should have to realize, like, oh yeah, other people have other lives.

   5. SSSimon Sinek14:10

      Yeah.

   6. JBJeni Britton14:10

      Sometimes when you have a vision, you get really locked into it.

   7. SSSimon Sinek14:14

      Mm.

   8. JBJeni Britton14:15

      And it starts to lead you.

   9. SSSimon Sinek14:17

      Mm.

   10. JBJeni Britton14:17

       Everything that you're doing starts to lead back to or advance that vision, and you can't... You almost can't help it. You just have to keep peeling back the onion, and then all of a sudden you're in, and you're locked in. And it's... I don't wanna say you don't have any other choice. It's just like, that's how it is.

   11. SSSimon Sinek14:33

       Mm.

   12. JBJeni Britton14:33

       And you can't really get out of it because if you do, the, your, your curiosity would kill you, right? You, you have to keep going, and you're compelled by that no matter how much it hurts, [laughs] you know?

   13. SSSimon Sinek14:46

       Your turn of phrase is so good. You know, we talk about following a vision, but I think it undervalues actually what happens. And you said there's this, there's a switch that happens at some point where you come up with this vision. At some point, the vision leads you.

   14. JBJeni Britton14:58

       Mm-hmm.

   15. SSSimon Sinek14:58

       As opposed to you following the vision. It still starts with you, but when the vision leads you, it's now starting with the vision.

   16. JBJeni Britton15:03

       Yeah.

   17. SSSimon Sinek15:03

       And, and it'll, and the vision will attract other people.

   18. JBJeni Britton15:06

       That's right. And the vision is the one... Everything else can change, but the vision doesn't usually change. It's, it's-

   19. SSSimon Sinek15:11

       Shouldn't change

   20. JBJeni Britton15:12

       ... flexible enough-

   21. SSSimon Sinek15:14

       Yeah

   22. JBJeni Britton15:14

       ... but the, the big vision is something that should come together because you know so much about whatever it is you're doing-

   23. SSSimon Sinek15:21

       Yeah

   24. JBJeni Britton15:21

       ... that you understand who you serve, who benefits, what the world looks like, you know, at, at the end. And then everything else between that sort of-

   25. SSSimon Sinek15:29

       Yeah

   26. JBJeni Britton15:30

       ... is malleable in a big way.

   27. SSSimon Sinek15:30

       But you're right. There's the making the thing as well, right? 'Cause what did Thomas Edison say? "Vision without a hallucin- uh, vision without execution is hallucination."

   28. JBJeni Britton15:37

       Yeah, that's right.

   29. SSSimon Sinek15:38

       You know?

   30. JBJeni Britton15:38

       Yeah. [upbeat music]

9. 15:44 – 20:56

   Selling is listening: ‘sell me this pen’ and validating ideas with one believer

   1. SSSimon Sinek15:44

      We interrupt this podcast with an ad with authenticity. This episode is brought to you by Porsche. It's more than just a fancy car brand. It's a company dedicated to connection, their engineers feeling connected to the brand, their drivers feeling connected to the road, and Porsche fans feeling connected to each other. So it's no surprise that when they invited me to the Porsche Experience Center with race car driver Patrick Long, we did more than drive. We connected.

   2. SPSpeaker16:13

      Porsche as a brand is a conduit to relationships with people. It's a commonality. I've met people all over the world, and the icebreaker is our love for the brand. But actually, what's more rewarding is the human connection, hearing someone's story, meeting you today, hearing and learning from somebody and understanding their story and taking something with you. It's about relationship. It's about being vulnerable and, and getting outside of your normal routine.

   3. SSSimon Sinek16:37

      It's funny 'cause as you're telling me the story, I'm sort of thinking about how my car connects me with other people and what people can learn about me. And it's really funny. Like, when I'm with a friend in the car, I will literally say, "Listen to this," and I turn on the sound, you know? And I, and I say, "I paid extra for this sound." You know, it's like the customization. I... That matters to me. But it says a lot about the joy that I want in the world. You know, it's sort of a metaphor. The car becomes a way for me to tell somebody about myself, and you say find those connections. And I never thought about the car giving me that, that connection with my friends who just happen to be passengers when we're going somewhere.

   4. SPSpeaker17:11

      And I see and feel your energy and how it makes you so passionate, and it lights you up. And being the receiver of that when you're in this small, confined space and you're going somewhere, like, strip it back and think about the windshield as your picture frame in life, and it takes me back to being a child and being in the backseat with no screens or devices and what you see in the world and how these cars bring that connection. Those are the memories I carry with me forever, and I think it's about those impactful moments and, and that's what I love about the, these cars. They're emotional. [upbeat music]

   5. SSSimon Sinek17:47

      You know the old trick? Do you know the old trick about sell this pen to somebody? Do you know this?

   6. JBJeni Britton17:51

      No.

   7. SSSimon Sinek17:52

      It's a, it's a, it's a sales trick. It's a, it's a... where you say to somebody, uh, "Sell me this pen," right? And almost every time people go, "So I've got this new pen here. It's got, you know, uh, unsmudgeable ink, and it's got, like... And it, and it's really comfortable to use."

   8. JBJeni Britton18:08

      The features.

   9. SSSimon Sinek18:09

      "And so, and it's, oh, it's really..." And it's amazing how, how few people sayDo you write?

   10. JBJeni Britton18:16

       Oh, right, exactly.

   11. SSSimon Sinek18:17

       Nobody asks-

   12. JBJeni Britton18:18

       Yeah. Yeah

   13. SSSimon Sinek18:18

       ... nobody asks any questions. They start-

   14. JBJeni Britton18:20

       Mm-hmm

   15. SSSimon Sinek18:20

       ... talking about the pen. And the good salespeople say, "So when do you write?"

   16. JBJeni Britton18:26

       Yeah.

   17. SSSimon Sinek18:26

       "Um, I keep a journal." "What do you write in that journal? How often do you keep your journal?" And then-

   18. JBJeni Britton18:31

       Yeah

   19. SSSimon Sinek18:31

       ... the pen becomes the... You know. But it's amazing-

   20. JBJeni Britton18:33

       Yes

   21. SSSimon Sinek18:33

       ... how many people start... You know, to your point, which is go sell something-

   22. JBJeni Britton18:36

       Yeah

   23. SSSimon Sinek18:36

       ... especially something you've come up with, and I agr- and I think even go sell an idea.

   24. JBJeni Britton18:40

       Yeah.

   25. SSSimon Sinek18:41

       Because then a lot of people will be like, "I don't know," you know?

   26. JBJeni Britton18:43

       Mm-hmm.

   27. SSSimon Sinek18:44

       Versus like, "I love your idea," you know?

   28. JBJeni Britton18:46

       Yeah. And, and also everybody will say, will sort of be like, "Eh, not a great idea." [laughs] You'll, you'll get a lot of that.

   29. SSSimon Sinek18:51

       I, I had a friend-

   30. JBJeni Britton18:51

       At some point you have to get your own
10. 20:56 – 23:40

    Making “good trouble”: incremental improvement, ingredient standards, and learning leadership

    1. SSSimon Sinek20:56

       Where... How, how did you get in trouble when you started Jeni's? So you st- you're, the you're, you're this little ice cream shop.

    2. JBJeni Britton21:02

       I mean, all the time. It was, um... I mean, everything from, you know, I wanted to use, um, grass-pastured dairy, better dairy, smaller farms. Just everywhere I went it was, "That's not how it's done. That's not how you do it. You can't do it like that." Not using a, you know, a g- like sort of generic ice- off-the-shelf ice cream base that a lot of dairies sell with like lots of ingredients in there that I didn't wanna use. There were a lot of things we couldn't do in the beginning because we weren't big enough, we didn't have what we needed to, but not letting it stop me, right? So it wasn't perfect when we started.

    3. SSSimon Sinek21:34

       Give me an example.

    4. JBJeni Britton21:35

       Well, just this ice cream. Like not being able to go with small farms.

    5. SSSimon Sinek21:38

       Mm.

    6. JBJeni Britton21:38

       Not being able to make it with specifically my recipe.

    7. SSSimon Sinek21:42

       Mm.

    8. JBJeni Britton21:43

       But okay, well, then we'll do this with this, and it will be like this for now, but then with this idea that... You know, so you're always inching toward the bigger vision-

    9. SSSimon Sinek21:50

       Mm

    10. JBJeni Britton21:51

        ... which is to get better dairy and, and I think it's gonna be six months from now, and of course maybe it was three years.

    11. SSSimon Sinek21:56

        Mm.

    12. JBJeni Britton21:57

        But there were a whole bunch of those things. But what happens was it was about getting better every day, so then that locks in this sort of, this is how I do things, that's how we do things at Jeni's, is we incrementally just get better. So we can't have everything right now. First of all, we can't afford it anyway.

    13. SSSimon Sinek22:10

        Mm.

    14. JBJeni Britton22:11

        But we'll just continually start to get better as we can. And so then it's about honestly like just constantly finding that good trouble-

    15. SSSimon Sinek22:19

        Mm

    16. JBJeni Britton22:19

        ... of like, okay, how can we tweak this? How can we make this better? But it's everywhere. It's customer service and all of the huge and the, all of the details of that. It's our product and quality, and as we grow, we can actually get now vanilla beans direct trade from a specific f- one farm-

    17. SSSimon Sinek22:33

        Mm

    18. JBJeni Britton22:33

        ... and support them, to leadership. I mean, just h- like how do you survive even like learning how to be a leader over time-

    19. SSSimon Sinek22:40

        Mm

    20. JBJeni Britton22:40

        ... because founders are, are weird people, and like over the time in the company. You know, you're shaken up all the time over the trajectory. And I was, you know, I built Jeni's for 26 years. That was all I did every single day.

    21. SSSimon Sinek22:51

        Takes a long time to become an overnight success.

    22. JBJeni Britton22:53

        Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

    23. SSSimon Sinek22:54

        [laughs]

    24. JBJeni Britton22:54

        Exactly.

    25. SSSimon Sinek22:55

        A- a- as I said, I think that we, we live in a day and age where there's a... Look, there's a lot of talented entrepreneurs, and there's a lot of great ideas, and there's a lot of disruptors. Um, and I'm just curious, um, what the world would look like if not everything was so growth, money, and VC obsessed.

    26. JBJeni Britton23:09

        Mm.

    27. SSSimon Sinek23:09

        And I don't think you'll... We would have creative ice cream company. Well, I take it back. You could, but it would take the same amount of time.

    28. JBJeni Britton23:17

        Mm-hmm. It would take the time.

    29. SSSimon Sinek23:18

        It would take the time, and you'd have to prove the case because I don't think-

    30. JBJeni Britton23:20

        Mm-hmm
11. 23:40 – 27:45

    Human mission beneath the product: community, introversion, and literal servant leadership

    1. SSSimon Sinek23:40

       And, and so, and so it's an interesting question. Like could that w- could that company ever exist today? And what's the social value of, of this old school entrepreneurial bootstrap? 'Cause there's a word in your vision. What's the vision that you have? What, how do you define your vision?

    2. JBJeni Britton23:57

       Well, our mission is make better ice creams, bring people together.

    3. SSSimon Sinek24:00

       Right.

    4. JBJeni Britton24:00

       I mean, two very simple things.

    5. SSSimon Sinek24:01

       Right.

    6. JBJeni Britton24:02

       But they can be unpacked forever and ever.

    7. SSSimon Sinek24:03

       Right.

    8. JBJeni Britton24:04

       Yeah.

    9. SSSimon Sinek24:04

       And the vision?

    10. JBJeni Britton24:05

        And the vision is-

    11. SSSimon Sinek24:06

        What's the vision that you, that led you?

    12. JBJeni Britton24:08

        Well, the vision that led me, it's always about, um, being the sort of place for creative people to have conversations and spark conversations. We, you know, we know that you're there to get to know somebody else better.

    13. SSSimon Sinek24:19

        Yeah.

    14. JBJeni Britton24:19

        And so how can we be the place that people go to get to know somebody else better? And like creating that-... space in America

    15. SSSimon Sinek24:25

        So this is, this is the most interesting... I f- I, I find this more interesting than the ice cream.

    16. JBJeni Britton24:30

        Yeah, 'cause it's not about ice cream [laughs]

    17. SSSimon Sinek24:31

        'Cause it's not about ice cream. But even in the mission-

    18. JBJeni Britton24:33

        Yeah

    19. SSSimon Sinek24:33

        ... statement.

    20. JBJeni Britton24:33

        Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

    21. SSSimon Sinek24:33

        Like, you happen to make ice cream.

    22. JBJeni Britton24:34

        Yeah.

    23. SSSimon Sinek24:34

        It could've been anything, right?

    24. JBJeni Britton24:36

        Right.

    25. SSSimon Sinek24:36

        Um, what I... And I love that in the mission statement, it's, you know, "We, we make great ice cream to bring people together." Like, it's a human mission.

    26. JBJeni Britton24:44

        Yeah.

    27. SSSimon Sinek24:44

        The ice cream is a conduit.

    28. JBJeni Britton24:45

        Mm-hmm. Yeah.

    29. SSSimon Sinek24:46

        And I'm curious wh- like, where did that come from? That in your vision, it was about togetherness and human connection. Your mission, you know, ice cream is this conduit to bring people together. Where is that from?

    30. JBJeni Britton25:00

        That, well-
12. 27:45 – 31:19

    Training a service culture: dignity in frontline work and the ‘art’ of reading people

    1. JBJeni Britton27:45

       At, at Jeni's, you know, we all give out endless tastes. And so when somebody comes, they can wait in a long line. But when you're in front of me, we're together until you're done. I mean, you can stay with me the, for two hours if you need to. Like, we don't rush people through the line once they get up to the front. And there's something in that, like, what I loved about work- and working with, like, high school kids starting, 'cause that was the beginning of the company. For a very long time, they were very young people.

    2. SSSimon Sinek28:11

       Who don't really, uh, don't really get service.

    3. JBJeni Britton28:14

       Well, you would... They get taught terrible service, and they often come in with what they believe because that's how they've been treated.

    4. SSSimon Sinek28:21

       For example?

    5. JBJeni Britton28:22

       Going to a coffee shop, like, you know, little things where you, you might... You, you, you're kinda confused and you ask a question, and instead of somebody answering you, they, like, point to something.

    6. SSSimon Sinek28:29

       Mm.

    7. JBJeni Britton28:29

       You know, just little things. Somebody, you know-

    8. SSSimon Sinek28:31

       I think they're giving you the answer by pointing

    9. JBJeni Britton28:32

       ... Yeah, or they're actually literally annoyed by you-

    10. SSSimon Sinek28:35

        Mm

    11. JBJeni Britton28:35

        ... because they feel that they are, um, like, in servitude or something, that they're, they don't really wanna be there. So at Jeni's, in the early days-

    12. SSSimon Sinek28:43

        Mm

    13. JBJeni Britton28:43

        ... it was about, like, this is a profession. This is, like, there's dignity here. Like, if you make somebody's day, if we do this, service is a gift you give to the world.

    14. SSSimon Sinek28:52

        Mm.

    15. JBJeni Britton28:52

        It's not something we even pay you for. Like, we pay you to, like, show up on time and get the corners when you mop and do all those things, but, like, service is a gift you give. It comes back to you later, and us as a team too. But you keep giving that, and keep generating that in the world. Think about what you're, what you're creating for you. And we, we talk about that a lot. And so we, we would get high school kids-

    16. SSSimon Sinek29:13

        Mm

    17. JBJeni Britton29:13

        ... who were the m- I have goosebumps just even talking about it, 'cause they were just so incredible. They're just regular kids that went to the art high school, and some of them were at the theater down the street, and then they came over and got jobs. But they, they really set the tone for who we would become because they stepped into this big role. And to this day, our team behind the counter is just so incredible. That team is, like, 1,200 people now, and they're the most important thing in the company for us. Because we learned, it's like me being on the front line. I was on the front line for 10 years. That's how I learned everything. And it's not just, like, the specifics. Americans like caramel better than any other flavor. It's, it's, like, the nuances. I think of, like, atomic patterning. It's like how somebody's eye might move when they like something or whatever. You start to learn these, like, um... And you adjust your emotion every time somebody new comes around.

    18. SSSimon Sinek30:04

        Do you teach people this?

    19. JBJeni Britton30:06

        They learn it. We talk about it. You can't really teach it. You have to experience it, you know?

    20. SSSimon Sinek30:10

        Mm-hmm.

    21. JBJeni Britton30:10

        If you've worked in an ice cream shop for two summers, and probably a coffee shop too, any fast service kind of place-

    22. SSSimon Sinek30:15

        Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

    23. JBJeni Britton30:15

        ... you know, you're, like, looking at the third person down the line because you know you have three people down here, and you're gonna probably get that person.

    24. SSSimon Sinek30:20

        Mm-hmm.

    25. JBJeni Britton30:20

        And you're wondering already while you're serving this person what that person's emotional state is. And that is actually how people do these fast service. You know you're gonna get that person.

    26. SSSimon Sinek30:29

        Mm-hmm.

    27. JBJeni Britton30:30

        And you're starting to think about what it takes and what that energy you're gonna put forward is when you get to that person. But right now, you're here, and this person wants joyful and da, da, da. And it's, like, interesting this, like, it's so new... It's so atomic almost. And so we talk about, like, whatever you go on and do in your life, remember this and, and be able to articulate this-

    28. SSSimon Sinek30:54

        Mm

    29. JBJeni Britton30:54

        ... forward because it's important, because it's this, it's an art.

    30. SSSimon Sinek30:58

        Mm. I think a lot of people would, uh, complain about young people today.
13. 31:19 – 37:58

    Mixtape generation and a comeback for humble entrepreneurship

    1. SSSimon Sinek31:19

       ... and, and service. Um, is it a Midwestern thing that you... Or have you noticed a variation across the country? Like, is it a, is it a myth that, that young people today are sort of, you know, struggling to serve? Is it just sort of old people complaining about young people? Or have you noticed a trend that your store's actually helping give these young people a skill that their friends don't have?

    2. JBJeni Britton31:38

       I think a little bit of both, but I mean, we're Gen Xers, right? I mean, I-

    3. SSSimon Sinek31:41

       Yeah. The f- the, the-

    4. JBJeni Britton31:41

       ... I actually looked up your birthday. I, I didn't look up your birthday, but I was doing some research-

    5. SSSimon Sinek31:44

       The forgotten-

    6. JBJeni Britton31:45

       ... and I found it

    7. SSSimon Sinek31:45

       ... the forgotten generation.

    8. JBJeni Britton31:45

       I'm September 29th, 1973, and I think you're October-

    9. SSSimon Sinek31:48

       October 9th

    10. JBJeni Britton31:49

        ... 9th, so happy birthday.

    11. SSSimon Sinek31:49

        1973.

    12. JBJeni Britton31:50

        So Gen X. I... Remember, we were, like, slackers and all that. And then the millennials came along, and then that was a whole thing. I worked with a lot of them in the early days, and everybody was complaining about them.

    13. SSSimon Sinek32:00

        We weren't slackers.

    14. JBJeni Britton32:01

        I know, well, we weren't.

    15. SSSimon Sinek32:02

        No.

    16. JBJeni Britton32:03

        [laughs]

    17. SSSimon Sinek32:03

        We were not slackers. We were absolutely not slackers.

    18. JBJeni Britton32:06

        No, I mean, definitely not.

    19. SSSimon Sinek32:07

        We just, we just got to work and got the stuff done and didn't complain or whine. It's why, it's why this-

    20. JBJeni Britton32:11

        Yeah

    21. SSSimon Sinek32:12

        ... I, I get a kick out of this, which is, um, there are books written about the Greatest Generation-

    22. JBJeni Britton32:16

        Mm-hmm

    23. SSSimon Sinek32:16

        ... who served in World War II. Uh, there are books written about the boomers, who broke everything and ruined everything. There are books written-

    24. JBJeni Britton32:23

        Yeah

    25. SSSimon Sinek32:23

        ... about millennials, Gen Z, and now Gen Alpha. There are no books written about Gen X.

    26. JBJeni Britton32:27

        It's so small. It's a small group. We just didn't care.

    27. SSSimon Sinek32:29

        We just got to work and got stuff done, and like, there you go. Here we are.

    28. JBJeni Britton32:32

        Or, you know, we also just didn't feel important.

    29. SSSimon Sinek32:34

        I think our generation had success younger than our parents. So, like, you know-

    30. JBJeni Britton32:38

        Oh, interesting
14. 37:58 – 45:49

    Leaving Jeni’s and finding a new purpose: the forest, fiber, and building Floura from food waste

    1. SSSimon Sinek37:58

       That's so good. How do you go from ice cream to fiber? How do you go from protein to roughage? [laughs]

    2. JBJeni Britton38:04

       Yeah, right.

    3. SSSimon Sinek38:06

       How do you go from really sweet and lovely to no taste at all?

    4. JBJeni Britton38:10

       Yes. Well, it's, uh, you know-

    5. SSSimon Sinek38:11

       [laughs] I'm just curious how you made that transition.

    6. JBJeni Britton38:13

       I will tell you.

    7. SSSimon Sinek38:13

       Like, what act of love is that?

    8. JBJeni Britton38:15

       I was with Jeni's, you know, I was, I was 100% in, 150% in-

    9. SSSimon Sinek38:19

       [laughs]

    10. JBJeni Britton38:20

        ... too much in-

    11. SSSimon Sinek38:21

        Yeah

    12. JBJeni Britton38:21

        ... for 26 years.

    13. SSSimon Sinek38:23

        Yeah.

    14. JBJeni Britton38:23

        And it was, uh... I was probably in too long, actually. COVID was about to happen. It was pretty clear that the team was doing great without me.

    15. SSSimon Sinek38:34

        Mm-hmm.

    16. JBJeni Britton38:34

        And I was probably hanging on a little too much. You know, there's still too many things that needed my attention or whatever. I thought, you know... It was just time. They were doing great.

    17. SSSimon Sinek38:42

        Mm-hmm.

    18. JBJeni Britton38:42

        And, um, but I hadn't put a ton of thought into it, and then suddenly I didn't know who I was. I didn't have anything else. Everybody that I knew was in there, everything that I... My entire world-

    19. SSSimon Sinek38:51

        Your, your identity was, was tied into your business.

    20. JBJeni Britton38:54

        Everything, yeah. It was the world that I created-

    21. SSSimon Sinek38:56

        Yeah

    22. JBJeni Britton38:57

        ... so that I didn't have to be in this one, honestly.

    23. SSSimon Sinek38:59

        Yeah.

    24. JBJeni Britton38:59

        And now I was in this one, and I had to figure that out. And so I was really trying to, um, trying to figure out who I am outside of that. It was great, but it was really hard also. And so I went to the forest, and I just spent... I mean, I walked-

    25. SSSimon Sinek39:11

        To the literal forest.

    26. JBJeni Britton39:12

        Literal forest. I went, walked-

    27. SSSimon Sinek39:13

        Not the metaphorical forest

    28. JBJeni Britton39:14

        ... 10 miles a day or more sometimes and just-

    29. SSSimon Sinek39:16

        Wow

    30. JBJeni Britton39:16

        ... hours out there every day. And I started to feel really good, and I, and I started to eat a lot of... Well, e- it, I actually started to eat a lot of blueberries and nuts and things like... I don't know, forest. I, I was like, it was like I was just becoming part of the forest, and I was just, like, eating things. I don't know. It was just sort of a thing for me. It was... COVID then happened, and I was just, like, w- able to be out there every day. And for some reason I was craving all this, but it ended up being fiber that I was eating. And I started to read a lot of books about fiber and realized that, like, when you get diverse fibers, you actually change how you feel and that, you know, 60% of Americans have one or more chronic illness, and it's related to fiber, and 95% of us are deficient. And it was like, you know, just like, it was like reading all these books and, and, you know, peeling back that onion. And, and then I was helping another entrepreneur just, just for fun, and he and I were working with other founders, and we were touring this massive produce place in, um, produce processing company in Vineland, New Jersey, and saw the watermelon rind and the apple cores and realized that they're full of fiber. And he and I had already been talking about this, and so it was like this epiphany moment. And again, it gets back to, like, we didn't even mean to start a company.
15. 45:49 – 53:18

    2015 listeria recall: simplifying operations, shedding the nonessential, and rebuilding stronger

    1. SSSimon Sinek45:49

       Jeni's Splendid Ice Creams almost didn't recover from a recall in 2015. What did surviving the cataclysmic event teach you?

    2. JBJeni Britton45:56

       That is absolutely right. We, we had a, uh, big event in 2015 that was game ending for the company, and, um, and it was, and it was actually like the worst thing I've ever been to, and also, been through, and also the best thing I've ever been through. I would never go back to the day before. I mean, it was really the end, and it was also like reputational, and it was like... I mean, it took me years to get through it.

    3. SSSimon Sinek46:18

       You had a contaminated pint of ice cream, right?

    4. JBJeni Britton46:19

       One pint of ice cream, um, with listeria in it, and that's something that you work really hard to prevent.

    5. SSSimon Sinek46:25

       Just one pint.

    6. JBJeni Britton46:25

       It happened. Yeah, it, it was one pint, but it was in the kitchen, so we found it and it was just like, you know, that's just a, it's a... You know, if you're not going to battle with listeria every single day, every moment of every day, you know, it's there because it's part of Earth and it's, you know-

    7. SSSimon Sinek46:37

       Mm-hmm

    8. JBJeni Britton46:37

       ... especially farm- farms and soil and things like that. But it was interesting because, um, it really made us as a company. Like it made us. I mean, we had all these values before. We had, we were like united by our values. We thought we were like talent, hustle, and guts, and I don't know. You know, we had all these things we said about ourselves. You know, we were just so cool and we were like whatever. And then we get into this, and we get through this big storm together, and it took everything and everyone. And what happened was we shed everything immediately that was not important, which was actually like 90% of what we were doing.

    9. SSSimon Sinek47:08

       For example?

    10. JBJeni Britton47:09

        So we got, we got it down to, um, you know, what are we here to do? Like what do we do that nobody else does?

    11. SSSimon Sinek47:16

        Mm.

    12. JBJeni Britton47:16

        And that was really the question that we were asking. And so do we actually have to make all of these pralines, or is somebody else better at it than we are? Like are we being led by this idea of artisanal, but it's actually not serving us, but it's making us, um, more complex and diffi- more difficult to run and, and potentially even a safety, um, issue. So we started to think like, okay, I'm thinking like this is what artisanal ice cream is, but actually it's not. It's I know these people out in, out in Ohio who make candy, and they're actually gonna be a lot better at making that and probably our bramble berry jam than we are. Like we were doing everything in our kitchen to the point of like cutting the strawberries, and that was just ridiculous. It was actually ridiculous, but I never would have thought differently about it had we not been through that. And then it was like, wow, there's like this fifth generation dairy, and they can do this for us, and there's... So we kind of restructured everything, and it made us just tighter and better as a company.

    13. SSSimon Sinek48:08

        So instead of making your own pralines, you could buy the pralines from somebody who's making pralines better than you.

    14. JBJeni Britton48:10

        Well, we could give them my recipe.

    15. SSSimon Sinek48:12

        Or you can give them your recipe-

    16. JBJeni Britton48:13

        And they could-

    17. SSSimon Sinek48:13

        ... and they'll make them for you even better.

    18. JBJeni Britton48:14

        And they might even say like, "Well, hey, we've been making pralines in our family for 150 years, and we would do it this way." And I'd be like, "That's great."

    19. SSSimon Sinek48:20

        Yeah.

    20. JBJeni Britton48:20

        "That's actually better-"

    21. SSSimon Sinek48:21

        Yeah

    22. JBJeni Britton48:22

        ... "than us trying to make them." And so there was just, there was a lot of that, but I think the big thing was just like I was stuck in this perspective that I couldn't see the other side of, and I never even would've-

    23. SSSimon Sinek48:31

        Yeah

    24. JBJeni Britton48:32

        ... if it hadn't been for that. But also I say the team is still there. Most of the people who went through that in 2015, they're all still there.

    25. SSSimon Sinek48:38

        The problem with scale is scale breaks things.

    26. JBJeni Britton48:40

        Mm-hmm.

    27. SSSimon Sinek48:42

        You said it, which is everything was becoming more complex. And it's likely that it's that level of complexity that you ha- you obs- you sort of misunderstood what artisanal means. That means we have to make everything ourselves, and everything has to be the best, and we have to touch everything ourselves.

    28. JBJeni Britton48:54

        Mm-hmm.

    29. SSSimon Sinek48:54

        That that complexity that was built into the system may have created the conditions that that one pint got contaminated, and if it was always simple, it may never have happened.

    30. JBJeni Britton49:04

        Mm-hmm.

Episode duration: 53:19