How To Be A Friend with chef Christina Tosi | A Bit of Optimism Podcast

Simon Sinek 0:00 The best part of doing a podcast with you is that I get to talk to you.

Christina Tosi 0:05 Aw.

Simon Sinek 0:05 [laughs]

Christina Tosi 0:07 I miss you.

Simon Sinek 0:07 And, and I get to see you.

Christina Tosi 0:10 I get to see... Like, on work time. Like, it's not like I'm trying to call you in the middle of work, and I know I'm not gonna catch you 'cause you're in the middle of your work. I just have a moment. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 0:19 Yeah, we- we're getting... We're, we're... This is, yeah, this is considered work. [laughs]

Christina Tosi 0:23 Hey, Simon, it's, it's a real job to be your friend. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 0:27 [laughs] What does, what, what does that mean?

Christina Tosi 0:30 I'm just joking. I'm just joking. That's like the, that's like the... It's, it's what we're saying implicitly, but also it's such a joy. Well, no, it's 'cause we both get... We both love what we do for a living, and it all makes the most sense when you get to say, "My favorite people to spend time with outside of work and share life with are also people-"

Simon Sinek 0:47 Yeah

Christina Tosi 0:47 ... that. That's how, for me, that's how I know I'm on the right track professionally.

Simon Sinek 0:51 So, um, I did no preparation for this interview whatsoever.

Christina Tosi 0:56 Perfect.

Simon Sinek 0:56 Because whatever. Um, you are famous because of Milk Bar, and I have a couple questions about that that I personally would like to know, that weirdly in all these years I've never asked you. But, uh, you're famous for Milk Bar. You're famous for your Netflix TV show. You're famous for your books, your cookbooks, and your new book. What's it called? The new book's called Dessert Will Save the World.

Christina Tosi 1:23 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 1:24 Amen to that. Um, like, have you ever seen anybody angry eating ice cream? It just doesn't exist. It does not exist.

Christina Tosi 1:31 They're a little less angry. They might still be angry, but the ice cream usually makes them a little bit less-

Simon Sinek 1:34 Right. It's like, "I'm so mad with this chocolate cake."

Christina Tosi 1:39 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 1:41 Um, uh, and what I thought... You know, you talk about those things a lot, but there's a Christina Tosi behind all of that magical stuff that I have the deep honor and pleasure-

Christina Tosi 1:53 Mm

Simon Sinek 1:53 ... of knowing, and I feel selfish knowing that. And I thought that would be a place for us to go today. Some of the questions I have we've never talked about before. Okay, anyway, I'm just gonna jump right in. So here's the Milk Bar question I have [laughs] that I have never asked you.

Christina Tosi 2:13 I can't wait. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 2:14 How did you come up with Cereal Milk ice cream, which is honestly one of the greatest gifts to humanity?

Christina Tosi 2:20 [laughs] It-

Simon Sinek 2:21 I would put the discovery, I would put the discovery of penicillin [laughs] and, and Cereal Milk ice cream way up there.

Christina Tosi 2:31 That's very sweet. For me, it's like the... You know when you do something that's, like, bigger, bigger than yourself in a way that's like, I don't know, it just kind of happens, and my only job is to be the conduit for it-

Simon Sinek 2:44 Yeah

Christina Tosi 2:44 ... um, in life? I imagine you must feel like that all the time. These are... Now I'm going like, "Oh wow, there are these questions that I have never act- actually asked you either." Um, for me, Cereal Milk is the representation of making someone, that angry person eating ice cream on a bad day, just making them feel, like, seen and loved and trust somewhere at some point in their life where they felt, like, calm and safe and trusted and seen without any of the other, "This is my name," or, "This is who I am," or, "This is what I do." There's, like, [laughs] a sacred moment that happens, I suppose, in a bowl of cereal- [laughs]

Simon Sinek 3:19 Well, you, you-

Christina Tosi 3:19 ... at some point in all of our lives, no matter what the cereal is.

Simon Sinek 3:22 Uh, there, there's... The, the magic of that product, it's not just tasty ice cream-

Christina Tosi 3:27 Mm

Simon Sinek 3:27 ... 'cause I, there are many flavors of tasty ice cream that I love, but there's no flavors of tasty ice cream that so tap into nostalgia and childhood.

Christina Tosi 3:39 I mean, if you make dessert, of course dessert, like, make... Dessert can save the world. It makes people happy. It does the thing. Like, dessert's a sacred space. Like, aside from a tasting menu only restaurant where someone's gonna serve it to you, like, dessert's an opt-in course, right? Like, it's also not... It's something people choose to do-

Simon Sinek 3:56 Opt-in course

Christina Tosi 3:56 ... not something that people have to do.

Simon Sinek 3:58 Right.

Christina Tosi 3:58 And I take that choice personally. Like, I take it seriously. I take it personally. That is a sacred, sacred space that people invite you into. Like we say in the book, like, dessert has this habit of showing up, right? Like, of course cake shows up at birthdays, but, like, if there's a wake or a funeral or sh- Like, dessert is there. Dessert has this way of showing up for people in these moments, and that's, that's sacred stuff. That's a really sacred stuff.

Simon Sinek 4:28 I love the fact that, that you think about that dessert is a discretionary course. So you're not actually competing against other desserts.

Christina Tosi 4:33 No.

Simon Sinek 4:33 You're competing against, "Let's get out of here and go watch a movie at home." You're competing against, "Ugh, I've put on so much weight." You're competing against, like-

Christina Tosi 4:42 Yes

Simon Sinek 4:42 ... all [laughs] of those things.

Christina Tosi 4:44 Yes.

Simon Sinek 4:44 But you're not competing against other food.

Christina Tosi 4:45 You're competing with people's emotion neurosis.

Simon Sinek 4:47 [laughs] It's so good.

Christina Tosi 4:47 Like, their dark sides. Meet their emotional child, meet their, you know, meet their intellect. Like, you are in the middle of an argument largely in someone's head-

Simon Sinek 4:56 Yeah

Christina Tosi 4:56 ... or some brilliant resolution where someone was just like, in the head, "Shh, be quiet. We're going. We're going to Milk Bar. We're doing the thing. We're whatever." I don't know how to do this without it being weird, but my real vision for fine dining is that dessert follows you home, and is, like, there for you in bed. That or, like, they give you pajamas to change into so that when you... Just, like, dessert then sweeps up happy. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 5:17 By the way, by the way, I do this, I do this frequently. I go for a nice meal.

Christina Tosi 5:22 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 5:23 I'll have my meal, and I will very often say, "I'd like this dessert to go, please."

Christina Tosi 5:28 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 5:29 And so you don't have to find a way to deliver it at home. You just have to find an elegant way to put it in a cooler pack so it stays fresh-

Christina Tosi 5:35 That's all

Simon Sinek 5:35 ... and is beautifully presented when you get home. That's all. I do that regularly.

Christina Tosi 5:39 Yeah, it's not a nicety.

Simon Sinek 5:40 I take my dessert home.

Christina Tosi 5:40 It's like, 'cause I wanna eat this in home where I can serve it-

Simon Sinek 5:42 I wanna eat it, but I wanna eat it in about an hour

Christina Tosi 5:44 ... under its cover. See, I'm so happy. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 5:45 I wanna eat it in about an hour, yeah, and I wanna eat it in front of the TV.

Christina Tosi 5:49 Oh, boy.

Simon Sinek 5:49 I don't wanna eat it at, at a restaurant. Yeah.

Simon Sinek 5:51 So I'm gonna change subjects on you. We're gonna, we're... This is g- this, this is a dramatic shift now. This is a dramatic shift of key. We're gonna go from a major key to a minor key.

Christina Tosi 5:58 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 5:59 Um, I regularly On this podcast, we'll talk about vulnerability, and I will talk about, um, during COVID, that I made a rule with all my friends that there's no crying alone.

Christina Tosi 6:19 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 6:19 I talk about this idea of no crying alone. What I don't ever say is that during COVID, you and I called each other more than a couple times and cried together.

Christina Tosi 6:34 Mm.

Simon Sinek 6:36 And I remember the first time you called, and you were walk- you were walking, you were going for a long walk. You'd left the house.

Christina Tosi 6:51 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 6:52 Don't remember how it started, and I remember the preamble. You said... I don't remember what you said about how you were doing, but clearly, you were in a difficult place. It was a difficult time. And you said, "I could go to my husband, but he's also in a difficult place, and I don't want to add more to his plate. And so do you have a minute?" And I remember, I don't remember the conversation at all, but I remember we cried together, and it was... I always adored you, and I've always been a fan of yours. But it was on that day-

Christina Tosi 7:29 Mm

Simon Sinek 7:29 ... like, this, this friendship, like-

Christina Tosi 7:34 Became real

Simon Sinek 7:35 ... it, it was, it was set in concrete, you know? It went from fun to solid.

Christina Tosi 7:42 Mm.

Simon Sinek 7:43 And I- I... Do you remember that day?

Christina Tosi 7:49 You know, it's funny you ask because you're saying this, and in my head I'm like, "Simon." I remember the tree I was standing under. I remember the gait, like, the sort of like the way when, when you walk and you kind of almost walk like, um, a soldier, um, where you sort of like kick your heels up a little bit because I'm-

Simon Sinek 8:09 Yeah

Christina Tosi 8:09 ... I was just sort of like grasping for straws. And I remember the phone ringing, and I remember hearing your voice. Like, I remember where I walked.

Simon Sinek 8:15 Yeah.

Christina Tosi 8:16 I remember, I remember those steps.

Simon Sinek 8:21 What is it about, why don't people call a friend in need, you know? I mean, here we are. I trust you with everything. I would call you and tell you I'm struggling. I would call you and tell you I'm hurting. I would call you and tell you I'm flailing. I would call and tell you I'm confused, I'm lost. I would call and tell you all of those things, and I wanna know why other people don't. I have friends who don't call other people in times of need, and I, and they, they have this weird sense of, "I don't wanna burden anyone with my problems"-

Christina Tosi 9:01 Mm

Simon Sinek 9:01 ... or there's shame or embarrassment attached, especially if somebody considers themselves a high performer. That-

Christina Tosi 9:07 I was gonna say, there's probably part of it that also is if I say it out loud and I have to hear myself, one, that makes it true.

Simon Sinek 9:15 Yeah.

Christina Tosi 9:15 And two, making it true means I have to admit it and then grapple with it and deal with it. And if you're talking about high performers, you're talking about people that implicitly don't want to admit defeat, and confusing vulnerability with defeat, right, is probably like nu- number one reason why-

Simon Sinek 9:32 Yeah

Christina Tosi 9:32 ... why people that are high performers struggle. And then also if you're a high performer, the second you say it out loud and you acknowledge that it's a thing, then you have to go out and solve it. And if you don't think you have a solve for it, it's, it's, it's, it's too, it's too big to even conceive of stating out loud. Though of course the irony is saying it out loud, releasing yourself of it to someone that is trustworthy is oftentimes half if not so much more of the grappling with it and dealing with it and taking one. Like, taking that first step is, is oftentimes so much of getting, getting through it, getting into it, making way.

Simon Sinek 10:17 Uh, it's decompartmentalizing, right?

Christina Tosi 10:19 Yeah. Yeah, sure.

Simon Sinek 10:20 Because I've talked to, I have friends in the military, and they, they do know how to compartmentalize their emotions, but it, they can't do it forever.

Christina Tosi 10:27 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 10:27 They can only do it for a very short period-

Christina Tosi 10:28 It'll catch up with you

Simon Sinek 10:29 ... they can only do it for a very short period of time while they're in the moments of chaos because they, they don't ha- there, there is no time to deal with whatever they need with the m- the emotions in chaos. But they will have to deal with it. Otherwise, that's when all the mental health challenges show up. And what you're talk- what I think is so interesting is you're talking about by, by saying it out lou- 'cause thinking it, you can, it's still ethereal. It's a thought.

Christina Tosi 10:54 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 10:54 Right?

Christina Tosi 10:55 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 10:55 But by saying it out loud to another human being, you're decompartmentalizing and saying, "This is a real thing," and you, you can't escape it now, right?

Christina Tosi 11:03 That's it.

Simon Sinek 11:03 You can't hide from it.

Christina Tosi 11:04 You put yourself on notice. Yeah.

Simon Sinek 11:05 You put yourself on notice, and that's a very scary feeling if you don't have the solution ready and lined up for the problem that you're s- you're putting out there. But that's the whole point of decompartmentalizing.

Christina Tosi 11:16 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 11:17 Have you always-

Christina Tosi 11:17 But can I also... Yeah.

Simon Sinek 11:18 Yeah.

Christina Tosi 11:18 Sorry, go ahead.

Simon Sinek 11:19 No, no, please, please.

Christina Tosi 11:20 I was gonna say, but, like, the, for my, my experience with you is the most beautiful part of our friendship, like why did I call that day? Why were you the person that I called? 'Cause it's not like I tried six other people. Like, I went on a walk. I knew I was gonna call you. I hit, I, I hit Simon in my phone and it went.

Simon Sinek 11:40 Yeah.

Christina Tosi 11:40 And for me, the biggest piece of that, the reason I knew that you were my person to call was because of the conversations we were having beforehand, which is you not only gave me the space for vulnerability, but you gave me language around the fact that like people that, that, that believe part of their work, and that is, that is part of my belief, I believe that so much of my work and what brings me joy and why I work as hard as I do is because I wanna show up and help people.

Simon Sinek 12:13 Right.

Christina Tosi 12:14 And you, when we're having, like, our high times and our high moments, you always have this beautiful way of saying, like, "Man, when, like, when we're high, we're high," but let's not forget, to your point, that we can't feel high always, right? Like, we're gonna feel grounded, and part of feeling grounded is, means that we're going to dip below feeling-

Simon Sinek 12:36 Yeah

Christina Tosi 12:36 ... feeling, you know, level set. And that happens, and it's frequent, and when it does, let's not run away from it. And it, it almost made me feel stronger to call you to say, "Oh, shit, I'm having a moment-"

Simon Sinek 12:51 Yeah

Christina Tosi 12:51 ... "that's like this moment that we're talking about." It was an invitation in to say, "You feeling this way actually is validating that your work matters and that you're on the right course, and that you're human, and that you're all of these things." It was an open invitation.

Simon Sinek 13:05 There's an insight here. There's an insight here that is really important, right? Which is most of us, and we're all guilty of this, present company included, right? Most of us offer to support our friends when we see that they are hurting or in pain, which is like calling to buy insurance while the house is on fire, right? And the insight is, is that we ignore the possibility of hard or bad times with ourselves or the w- people we love. We ignore them in the good times because why would we? It's like when the stock market is rallying, nobody thinks about it crashing, right? And w- the one thing we did, probably by accident, [laughs] but the one thing that we did is in the high times, and the celebrations, and the high fives, and the woo-hoo, and the we'll, like, this is life forever and it's never gonna change, we were prescient enough to say, "Hey, isn't this amazing? But remember, when this feeling goes away, we have to be there for each other." In other words, we bought the insurance, the insurance early. You knew you had a policy [laughs] when, when, when your, when your feelings crashed.

Christina Tosi 14:22 I had my Simon Sinek friend policy already executed, babe. It was filed away. I knew, I knew I had it.

Simon Sinek 14:28 You just had to be like, "I know it's in here somewhere," right. Exactly. And I think what you're talking about is the responsibility of good friends, and I would even go so far as the responsibility of good friends, the responsibility of good leaders, and the responsibility of good coworkers.

Christina Tosi 14:41 Right.

Simon Sinek 14:42 Which is in the very high times to start s- to start writing policies, to start writing insurance policies saying, "Look, I hope you never have to use this. I hope your house never burns down. But on the horrible occasion that it may, just remember you've got this policy. Cash it in." And I think it, I think this is huge that in high times we, we're not Debbie Downers by reminding people, "Hey, this isn't gonna last." We're writing insurance policies.

Christina Tosi 15:10 That's it. That's it.

Simon Sinek 15:12 Such a good insight.

Christina Tosi 15:13 And it, it's a, it's applauding the high times and being like, "But to be clear, no matter what the time is, I'm always your friend."

Simon Sinek 15:21 Yeah.

Christina Tosi 15:21 Like, there's no fair weather here. Of course, of course, of course things are great right now.

Simon Sinek 15:26 I-

Christina Tosi 15:26 And to be human is going to be that there's gonna be a time in life, and, and I wanna show you what our friendship really means.

Simon Sinek 15:33 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 15:34 So the question, the question I have is were you always good at asking for help, or is it a skill you had to learn?

Christina Tosi 15:41 I'm t- I'm, I'm, in fact, terrible at asking for help. In a very interesting way you are calling out a dynamic of our friendship that is, I would say, very bespoke to our friendship.

Simon Sinek 15:55 Yeah.

Christina Tosi 15:55 I'm terrible at asking for help. I am not great... I'm great at being vulnerable in certain moments with certain people, and the rest of the time I plow through it.

Simon Sinek 16:07 [inhales]

Christina Tosi 16:08 So I'm not a one-size-fits-all in, in this-

Simon Sinek 16:11 Okay

Christina Tosi 16:11 ... sphere of asking for help and vulnerability.

Simon Sinek 16:13 So why... W- what is, what is the reason you don't wanna ask for help?

Christina Tosi 16:17 The, I think probably the tricky part of, like, where, depending on where you're at in life, the things that made you successful oftentimes are the things that hold you back or to make-

Simon Sinek 16:25 Yeah

Christina Tosi 16:25 ... it to certain tiers of, you know, air quote, "success." Um, and I think that's part of it, right? To be an entrepreneur you have to be, to be a successful entrepreneur, you have to be determined.

Simon Sinek 16:35 Yeah.

Christina Tosi 16:35 You have to go at it, like, always stay in the game, never quit. Figure it out. That's not to say you can't ask for help along the way, but you, you have to be really determined to, you know, solving problems and be okay that sometimes help doesn't come and you still have to succeed. And then all of a sudden being grown up and being like, "Oh, if I want the richness of life in surround sound, I have to invite other people in." I can't just, to your point, we can't just show, I can't just show up for people. I have to invite other people in, otherwise I stop losing the connection of, like, why cereal milk does the thing or you, you stop losing the richness of friendship. So how can you give seven friends, six friends a birthday party at your own birthday party if they aren't true friendships? And that's, that's a dynamic that I'm, that is definitely up on my personal improvement goals list.

Simon Sinek 17:27 I, I'd like to call bullshit if I may.

Christina Tosi 17:30 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 17:31 Um, because nobody... I know entrepreneurs who don't ask for help.

Christina Tosi 17:36 Mm.

Simon Sinek 17:36 And they can only reach a certain level because they have to be in every meeting, they have to make every decision.

Christina Tosi 17:41 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 17:41 And you, you can't achieve what you've achieved and the scale that you've achieved it without being forced. [laughs]

Christina Tosi 17:48 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 17:48 Even if you did it kicking and screaming.

Christina Tosi 17:50 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 17:50 But you had to delegate, and you had to let go, and you had to ask people to do things, and own things, and run things, and take accountability for things because you physically could not.

Christina Tosi 18:00 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 18:00 Nobody can achieve scale without-

Christina Tosi 18:03 That's... Yeah

Simon Sinek 18:03 ... without m- maybe not asking for help but getting it.

Christina Tosi 18:08 The, per- perhaps it's for me, I'm being very literal about the- I need help, will you help me delivery-

Simon Sinek 18:15 Ah, okay

Christina Tosi 18:16 ... versus, versus getting help. And part of the getting help for me is the, you, you have to be fearless as you're building, and then you have to be fearless from a failure standpoint, I suppose both in building and when, to your point, when you're scaling and you invite other people in to the party truly into the inner circle. You have to really trust and be fearless about the fact that people are gonna fail. You're gonna fail. People are gonna let you down. You might let people down, whether you're trying to or not. And just having, like, an emotional vigor about you that says, "No matter what happens, I'm gonna be okay."

Simon Sinek 18:57 Are your team, is your team good at asking for help?

Christina Tosi 19:03 Sometimes probably not, not i- they're, I ... [laughs] Oh, Lord, this is really a deep dive. Probably not. They are probably, I would say that they're very similar to me, in that I don't know I've ever had someone say, "I need help."

Simon Sinek 19:18 Yeah.

Christina Tosi 19:18 But rather an invitation in that sort of implies, "I'd love your brainshare, I'd love your feedback."

Simon Sinek 19:26 Right.

Christina Tosi 19:26 "I need your support," but not the, there's a little bit of this, like, the, the fear of, like, being like, "I need help," and what it implies, 'cause that's actually, you're so great at that, and you're so great at the, the balance of, "I'm curious, and I'd love for you to unlock more than what I do or don't know," without overtly being like ... The, like, the help me-

Simon Sinek 19:53 What do you mean? J- j- just say

Christina Tosi 19:53 ... feels like I'm drowning. The help me for me-

Simon Sinek 19:56 Oh

Christina Tosi 19:56 ... feels like, "I don't know how to swim. I'm drowning. I'm in over my head," as opposed to the curiosity of inviting other people to the table and saying, "Tell me more." Like, "What don't I know? Tell me more."

Simon Sinek 20:09 Do, do, do you know one of the things that I've learned is that there's two ways of asking for help, right? Most people think asking for help is, as, and you said this before, is the admission of defeat.

Christina Tosi 20:21 Yes, and then?

Simon Sinek 20:22 And so their temperament is defeated, right? "Um, I don't know what I'm doing, and, uh, can you help me? I, I need help. I need help. I'm drowning. I need help," right? And, and I've always thought of it as a mindset, which is to ask for help with confidence, right? Like, "Hey, can somebody please, like, help me out here? I am completely underwater, and I definitely need some help. Otherwise, uh, I don't know, I'm gonna drown or something." Like, "Somebody please just help me," right? And to have a sense of humor or a confidence in the asking for help is a mindset.

Christina Tosi 20:59 Mm.

Simon Sinek 20:59 So you're, you're asking for the same thing with the sa- same circumstances in both ways. In one of the cases you're ashamed of it, because as you-

Christina Tosi 21:06 Yeah

Simon Sinek 21:06 ... as, as, as you said, th- you equate it to defeat. Where I've learned to disassociate asking for help with defeat and simply associate asking for help with, "I just need help. Eh, I just need some help."

Christina Tosi 21:21 [laughs] But that's a powerful thing.

Simon Sinek 21:26 And I think that-

Christina Tosi 21:27 Like that you know how to call it out.

Simon Sinek 21:31 I thi- I think, but what I think this conversation is doing is I want pe- anyone who's listening to this to, to recognize that asking for help is normal.

Christina Tosi 21:42 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 21:43 And not only is it normal, it's really nice. I mean, and I'll go back to this, which is I've ... You've, you and I have always got along. We've always had fun. We've always been friends. We've been friends for many, many years. But that one day under that one tree, I remember where I was standing. You remember the tree. I was standing next to my kitchen counter when the phone rang. Like, I remember exactly where I was, and we remember specifics of where we were, like, when the moon landed-

Christina Tosi 22:16 Yeah

Simon Sinek 22:16 ... for the, for the, we remember where we were when we watched, you know, Neil Armstrong walk on the moon because these things have such impact in our lives. And so how powerful is it that something as innocuous as a friend calling and saying, "Do you have a minute?" That you and I have internalized it like people internalize watching Neil Armstrong walk on the moon. And on that day we became very close friends. And we don't talk a lot. Let's, let's, let's, like, let's, let's be crystal clear. Like, I don't see you a lot. I don't talk to you a lot, but you and I have the undying confidence that on any moment of any day, if the phone rang and one of us said, "Got a minute?" So I'll just tell you a quick funny story. You'll appreciate this, right? So a friend of mine went through a really tough time, and I didn't know about it, and she's a very close friend.

Christina Tosi 23:06 Mm.

Simon Sinek 23:07 Went through a really, really hard time, and I, I saw her, and I was like, "Hey, what have you been up to?" And she's like, "I've been really depressed. I've been really, uh, having..." I'm like, "WTF?" Like, "What? Y- y- I'm one of those friends you call. Like, I call you. Like, you've told me things before. Like, why did you leave me out? Like, like, why didn't you call me?" And she said, "I did." I'm like, "No, you didn't." She's like, "Yes, I texted you multiple times." I'm like, "N- what?" And I go back and look at my texts as like, have I been a horrible friend? And the texts say, "What up? What are you doing? Wanna come over?" And I was like, "You mean these?" She goes, "Yeah." I'm like, "You mean, you mean the ones that sound like every other text you send me? Like, how the hell am I supposed to know that you're struggling when you send me, 'What are you doing?'" You know? And she came upon some research that said that when someone is struggling or in need, all they need is eight minutes From a friend to hold space with them to make them feel better. That's all they need is eight minutes.

Simon Sinek 24:20 And so now we have a code word, which is, "What up? How you doing?" But when one of us is struggling, the text is, "Do you have eight minutes?" And that simply means, "I need you. I'm gonna cry."

Christina Tosi 24:33 No, it's perfect.

Simon Sinek 24:34 And-

Christina Tosi 24:35 It's perfect

Simon Sinek 24:35 ... eight minutes, eight minutes. When somebody texts you eight, "Do you have eight minutes?" Any of us can stop the movie, can walk out of a meeting, can walk out of a room and talk to a friend in need for eight minutes. We spend eight minutes in a b- in the bathroom, for heaven's sakes. And we can be there for somebody for eight minutes. We won't, we won't... It's not, we're not there... It's n- we don't need to fix anything. We need to acknowledge that they need help, and that they just need to know that they're not alone.

Christina Tosi 25:04 And by the way, to be crystal clear, there's no greater honor that you could give a friend than to send them a text message that says, "Do you have eight minutes?" Like, when you're in your own, like, darkness-

Simon Sinek 25:21 Yeah

Christina Tosi 25:21 ... I get that you can't see clearly. But there is no greater compliment and gift to let someone know how much they mean to you-

Simon Sinek 25:33 Yeah

Christina Tosi 25:34 ... than to send that text.

Simon Sinek 25:36 Yeah.

Christina Tosi 25:36 There is, for me, as, as a friend, there is n- there is no greater. Like-

Simon Sinek 25:40 There's no greater honor

Christina Tosi 25:41 ... I am, that is the level friend that I aspire to be, and I don't have a zillion friends because I'm like the friends I have, I'm, I'm the, I'm the eight-minute, I'm the eight-minute text in the middle of the night friends.

Simon Sinek 25:55 Yeah.

Christina Tosi 25:55 Like, that is the friends.

Simon Sinek 25:57 Yeah.

Christina Tosi 25:57 I'm the stop, drop, and roll friends. And to your point, the like, I don't even t- I don't even remember what we talked about. I just remember that making that-

Simon Sinek 26:05 Yeah

Christina Tosi 26:05 ... call and that walk, it wasn't a two-hour walk.

Simon Sinek 26:09 No, no.

Christina Tosi 26:09 To your point, it's the, it, s- so much can happen in eight minutes.

Simon Sinek 26:13 It was probably 20 or 30 minutes if I had to guess.

Christina Tosi 26:15 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 26:16 Maybe an hour at the absolute most.

Christina Tosi 26:19 Eight minutes.

Simon Sinek 26:20 Eight minutes. A- and, and you, and you really, you really said it best, which is for anybody who says, "I don't wanna bother anyone with my problems," like how dare you deny them the awesome honor of getting to hold space with you and sit in mud with you and give eight minutes of their life just to let you know you're not alone. That's th- that, the, not to fix things, just to let you know that you're not alone in whatever you're doing. And sometimes it's not deep emotional stuff. Sometimes, like, "I don't know how to solve this problem," and it's silly stuff. But the thought that we don't wanna bother our friends is, is, is unbelievably selfish.

Christina Tosi 26:56 Right.

Simon Sinek 26:57 Bother me. I want to be bothered by the people I love. That is what reinforces my love for them.

Christina Tosi 27:03 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 27:05 And anybody who doesn't have eight minutes in the course of a day-

Christina Tosi 27:10 Take a look at your friend list

Simon Sinek 27:10 ... they may not have eight minutes in a second.

Christina Tosi 27:12 Yeah. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 27:13 You know, you might be on a plane. I get that, you know? But when you get off the plane, you gotta walk to the taxi. That's about eight minutes.

Christina Tosi 27:21 Be the eight-minute friends, and if, and if someone in your life is not an eight-minute friend...

Simon Sinek 27:28 I think so. Then they're just, then they're just fun. They're just acquaintances.

Christina Tosi 27:31 Totally. They just move into a different place in your life.

Simon Sinek 27:34 Yeah, they're not, they don't have to be ejected from your life, but you just wouldn't call them in a time of need, and that's okay.

Christina Tosi 27:39 Yeah. But I like that-

Simon Sinek 27:39 I have friends that I wouldn't call in time of need, but I love them and I think they're great fun.

Christina Tosi 27:43 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 27:43 But they're not, they're not, they're not, they're just not on that speed dial.

Christina Tosi 27:48 That's true.

Simon Sinek 27:50 W-

Simon Sinek 27:51 can you tell me something you've done in your career, and it doesn't matter if it's commercially successful or not, I don't care. But can you tell me a specific thing that you've worked on in your career that you absolutely loved being a part of, and that if every project or everything you ever worked on was like this one thing, you'd be the happiest person alive?

Christina Tosi 28:09 Yes. I can tell you 'cause it's, like, fresh in my, in my, in my brain and my life. Bake Club. It's this crazy, quirky little thing that I started during the pandemic. It used to be daily, now it's a weekly club that anyone can join. It happens on Instagram Live at 2:00 PM Eastern Standard Time every Friday. And I literally just, wherever I am, we bake something together. And I won't tell you what we're baking, I'll just tell you what the basic ingredients are that you need, and it's usually no more than, I don't know, three, five, maybe seven. Um, and you just show up with a cannonball spirit of whatever it is, I got my ingredients, ready, set, go. And we spend five minutes, 15 minutes, 30 minutes baking. We make a pl- I make a playlist every week. You, you listen, you dance, you watch, you bake, you make mistakes, you mess up, you burn stuff, I drop stuff, whatever it is. But it's like, it's a carved-out time together to be intentional and free in a very lose yourself, find yourself spirit. And it's a club in a way that it's this collection of people that, Simon, are like, they're all over the US at this point, and they show up for each other. Someone texts someone, someone at, at Bake Club messaged me the other day and was like, "Hey, this person's mom died, and she had been battling for a while, and she is having a really hard time. And she, I want to show up for her. Her favorite thing is this one thing that you made this one time. Can you send the care, can you send the care package to her?" Et cetera, et cetera. But it has become this network of incredible humans, some of whom, to be clear, don't even bake. They just show up for the vibes and the spirit of community. Some of them have never even met each other. They're just pen pals. And it is, it's the power of dessert, but it's really like, it's a wide-open door for anyone and everyone to, like, to, to be the closest thing to a, to that eight-minute friend. Um, and it's completely human. It's not choreographed. It's not rehearsed. It is me on whatever my, whatever I am at 2:00 PM on a Friday It's a good day, it's a bad day, it's a rainy day, and I'm showing up. And I'm, I am an introvert. I don't, I do not get energy from being out and about and, and, and. And it forces me every Friday to really ask myself on a good day and a bad day, like, "What are you, what are you here for? What are you showing up for?" Um, and it's an invitation. It's a, it's a door open in to anyone that wants to come into my home and just needs some company, or needs to laugh at me, or needs to laugh with me, or wants to bake, or needs an excuse, or needs, like, a babysitter. Some people put their kids in front [laughs] of Bake Club.

Simon Sinek 31:01 [laughs]

Christina Tosi 31:02 And it is the most... I love it because, to your point, there's no transaction of commerce, and it has, uh... It's a club, which is something that I very much found my identity in when I was a teenager of, "Oh, there's cliques, and this and that and the other, and I have all my friends." But, like, you get to sort of choose what you're interested in or to find your people in it. And I love that it's this community of people that I have everything to do with and nothing to do with, and there's just, like, an immense pride of its stickiness and the space that it holds in people's lives.

Simon Sinek 31:35 Mm.

Christina Tosi 31:37 Anyways.

Simon Sinek 31:38 Tell me an early specific happy childhood memory, something I can relive with you.

Christina Tosi 31:43 Uh, um, God, this is such a good question. My, like, my favorite earliest food memory is, um, my mom, uh, comes to pick me, and my mom, working mom, comes to pick me and my sister up from, it must have been, like, preschool and kindergarten, first grade. Um, I was a, I still am, a very messy kid, and so she'd always dress us in dresses, but they would, like, send us out for recess, and I would just sit in the, in the dirt and then, and she'd sort of just like, "I can't believe that you, you know, ruined another, yet another outfit." [laughs] And then, um, like, seat belts, buckles us into the back of the car, blue Ford Taurus. I always sit behind the driver's seat. That, that was always my seat. Um, it was one of those, um, one of those sedans where you cha- change the gears with the little stick shift up here. Um-

Simon Sinek 32:39 Yeah, oh, yeah

Christina Tosi 32:40 ... and I remember her, like, mom purse that had the multiple pockets, and it was always, like, old tissues hanging out and then, and then, and then. And she'd put it in the middle 'cause the, the front seat was also like a banquette bench.

Simon Sinek 32:52 Yeah.

Christina Tosi 32:52 The little armrest-

Simon Sinek 32:54 Yeah

Christina Tosi 32:55 ... down. She, where she would normally sit her purse was empty, and her purse was on the dashboard instead, which was very strange. And she pulls halfway out of this, like, preschool, kindergarten parking lot and pulls over. And when they pulled over, my mom or my dad, it was because we were fighting. My older sister and I were fighting, kicking each other. Once I opened the door, 'cause I was curious what would happen-

Simon Sinek 33:18 Like a, "Don't make me pull this car over" kind of thing.

Christina Tosi 33:20 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 33:20 Right.

Christina Tosi 33:21 And my heart goes into shock, like, "Oh, shit. Oh, shit. Oh, shit. What do we do? What do we do?" And she digs into her purse and I'm like, "Oh, [laughs] what, what could this be?" And she pulls out a bag of Sugar Babies that she left in her purse on the dashboard to be warmed by the sun. And out of nowhere, this makes no sense whatsoever, tears open the bag of Sugar Babies and, you know, they're little brown sugar pieces. They're probably not as sweet for your taste, Simon, but they're very magical.

Simon Sinek 33:51 [laughs]

Christina Tosi 33:52 And she, like, douses out two to my sister, and I remember the clink of these two little pieces of, like, sugar-coated candy clinking into my sister's hand and then into mine. And she pours a few into hers. And just quietly, there's no words exchanged because we're so perplexed, and I don't know, she must have been having a good day or a bad day. I don't know. I've asked her. She doesn't remember the day at all, which is hilarious to me 'cause it's so vivid in my memory. And we just ate these warm, brown, sugary Sugar Babies that had been very intentionally warmed by the sun. And I don't remember anything else about what happened that day, what happened afterwards. I remember it was done in complete silence, and it was the equivalent of when you watch someone as an adult eat something really good and they just go... And you can see their sort of, like, eyelids flicker and take them somewhere. My, my food memory. That's, like, my first, that's my first vivid memory as a kid that was joyful, and it's, it's, it had to do with sugar and dessert, so.

Simon Sinek 34:59 Do you... What I find aston- Thank you for sharing that, by the way. What I find astonishing about you, and we've never talked about this, is that story, Bake Club, and almost everything we've ever talked about today is the exact same story.

Christina Tosi 35:15 How so?

Simon Sinek 35:15 Which you've used the word invitation so many times today.

Christina Tosi 35:19 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 35:19 I don't even know if you've even realized it. You keep saying invitation, invitation. And who, who you are is, like, you surprise people with sugar, and I don't mean literally. You surprise people with sweetness. And that you happen to be a dessert person is just, it's just poetic.

Christina Tosi 35:41 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 35:42 But, but the way you describe Bake Club is it started off in COVID to be this little surprise. You show up no matter what. Nobody... And it's, if you th- use the, what happened with that car as a kid, it's the same experience for people. They don't know what they're gonna get. They don't know what kind of mood you're in. But all you know is you show up for other people. Your mother showed up for the kids, no matter... You don't know what mood she's in. People don't know what mood you're in. But you're gonna give them a little something that just brightens their day. And that's who you are. You-

Christina Tosi 36:27 Oh, stop. You're gonna make me cry [laughs]

Simon Sinek 36:29 You, you, you, you sh- You're, you are an introvert. You're also close to the vest.

Christina Tosi 36:36 Mm.

Simon Sinek 36:37 You're hard to read, you know? There are times I've hung out with you, I don't know if you're in a good mood or a bad mood, and then all of a sudden biscuits come out.

Christina Tosi 36:48 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 36:50 And this, you are, you have become your mother, where you, we're kind of in the backseat going about our day, and then all of a sudden something happens. We don't know what's going on, and the result is something delightful and sweet. And, and that's what it is to be your friend.

Christina Tosi 37:08 Mm.

Simon Sinek 37:09 And that's what it is to be in Bake Club, and that's what it is to work at Milk Bar, you know? It's kinda like we're going through our routines, and then you interrupt our routines with a little bit of magic. And that's, that's... Y- Your purpose on this planet is to perpetuate what your mother instilled in you that day, to do the extra, to do the extra, to go the extra length. It's... That's what it is. It's not that she just gave you the candy. She went to the extra length of pr- of preparing the candy and warming it in the sun. You s- you, you said she, she, she, she... They were heated intentionally, and that's what you do. It's with great intention that you make preparations to surprise people with a little bit of sweetness in their lives, just a little bit to keep them going that day.

Christina Tosi 37:54 Mm.

Simon Sinek 37:55 That's what you do. You make... You put in a lot of effort. What, what the in- You know, it... Warming the candy on the dashboard, uh, has become an entire business and enterprise for you. A lot of effort, a lot of thought for a little bit of magic and a little bit of sweetness for the rest of us, 'cause you're always thinking about us, and your customers, and your friends.

Christina Tosi 38:23 Yep.

Simon Sinek 38:23 [sniffs]

Christina Tosi 38:27 Well, so seen. I feel so seen and also therapized in a way that... [laughs]

Simon Sinek 38:34 D- You know, I talk about cause a lot-

Christina Tosi 38:38 Mm

Simon Sinek 38:38 ... and sacrifice, [sniffs] and, um, people always ask me, like, "How do you..." Like, I, I believe in quitting. Like, y- you know, I don't believe in, like, stubbornness to the, to a, to a self-destructive level, but the question is, how do you know when to quit, right? And for me, the sacrifice has to feel worth it.

Christina Tosi 39:03 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 39:03 Like, I'm giving a lot, not sleeping a lot, working a lot, but the impact that I'm having, and if you ask me to do the equation, it feels worth it. And if it no longer feels worth it, you know? You have struck that balance where tremendous amounts of effort, but it's all worth it. You're one of the hardest-working people I know on the planet. You don't rest, but the amazing thing is to you, whether it's having guests over to your house, or whether it's Bake Club, or whether it's the Milk Bar enterprise, it's worth it, because you get two little kids in the backseat to smile and have a little bit of joy and carry a memory for the rest of their lives, and we carry the memory of talking in the woods, and we carry the memory of our childhood when we eat-

Christina Tosi 39:49 Mm

Simon Sinek 39:49 ... Cereal Milk ice cream. It's all the same story.

Christina Tosi 39:52 [sniffs] Insane. It's so true. How many memories do you have?

Simon Sinek 40:08 Not that many, right?

Christina Tosi 40:09 No, that true.

Simon Sinek 40:11 We only remember the things that matter. Tosi, I love you.

Christina Tosi 40:17 I love you. [upbeat music]

Simon Sinek 40:19 If you enjoyed this podcast and would like to hear more, please subscribe wherever you like to listen to podcasts. And if you'd like even more optimism, check out my website, simonsinek.com, for classes, videos, and more. Until then, take care of yourself. Take care of each other. [upbeat music]