EVERY SPOKEN WORD
65 min read · 13,391 words- 0:00 – 3:30
Intro and Simon's experience with the LA Fires
- MCMike Campbell
How we feeling? You excited?
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah. Good.
- MCMike Campbell
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
I was doing jumping jacks in the back.
- MCMike Campbell
Were you? Is that what you do before you go?
- SSSimon Sinek
Oh. [laughs]
- MCMike Campbell
Um, okay. So I don't know if everybody knows this, but you don't preview any of the questions that I'm gonna ask you. So, um, but I do-- If it's okay, I wanna start off with one that is something a little more personal because I wanna thank you on behalf of all of us for, um, being with us today. 'Cause I know you live in LA and are personally dealing with the wild-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- MCMike Campbell
... fire crisis that's happening. And I was just wondering if maybe you could tell us a little bit about what you're experiencing.
- SSSimon Sinek
Thank you. Yeah. It's, um, uh, it was, it's been a wild week, that's definitely for sure. Uh, I got very lucky where my house is. Um, we fortunately, we haven't evacuated and the house is still there. Um, but it was tense a few days ago. The evacuation zones came closer and closer. So... And you and I were talking backstage, you know, it's the strangest thing. We've all played this game, you know, with our kids, you know, where you sort of sit around the table and be like, "If you had to grab three things, what would you grab?" And when you actually have to walk around the house and actually make those decisions, it was the strangest thing. I, I was literally looking at my stuff thinking, "I love that. I'm gonna leave that." You know?
- MCMike Campbell
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Sort of just, sort of mentally preparing and, and really going through this gratitude. Um, you realize when you, when you face the potential to lose things or have things destroyed, you just, you start being immensely grateful for the things that you have and that you may not have them.
- MCMike Campbell
Right.
- SSSimon Sinek
And, um, I was talking to a friend of mine who lost everything. He lost his house and he's lost everything in it.
- MCMike Campbell
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Um, and he, he has this sense like he has to go do something of service now. He realizes that-
- MCMike Campbell
Oh, great
- SSSimon Sinek
... he lost everything that he's accumulated and he's been a taker his-
- MCMike Campbell
Oh, interesting
- SSSimon Sinek
... for so much of his life and he realizes, like losing everything, it's made him realize he needs to give more. So I think it, it really does, it really does-
- MCMike Campbell
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... change people's point of view on the world which-
- MCMike Campbell
Well, I've, I've, I've heard you say a little bit about just what that feeling is like when you find out the winds-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah, yeah
- MCMike Campbell
... are not coming to you.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- MCMike Campbell
But that, that's not, that's not always a great feeling, is it? That's-
- SSSimon Sinek
I... It's just a strange feeling. Like we've all been peeled to this app called Watch Duty, you know, obsessively. I mean, I, I check it like a teenager on TikTok, you know?
- MCMike Campbell
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
Uh, it's like every few seconds I'm checking the app. I know it only updates every three hours, but you know I'm-
- 3:30 – 6:05
Extreme vs. everyday leadership
- SSSimon Sinek
so many leaders who are like these sort of command and control leaders. They've watched too many movies is probably-
- MCMike Campbell
Right
- SSSimon Sinek
... you know-- They make movies about bad leaders, by the way. Right? 'Cause bad leaders are really exciting. You know? They come in-
- MCMike Campbell
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... and they scream and shout at everybody and nobody knows what to do until they get there.
- MCMike Campbell
Right. Right.
- SSSimon Sinek
And then they come in and save the day, right? That's actually terrible leadership, um, but really makes for great movies. Um, good leadership, like they've never made a movie about Marshall or Bradley. You know? When you have great led organizations-
- MCMike Campbell
Right
- SSSimon Sinek
... you know, you walk into the office and you're like, "Hey, is the boss here today?" And they're like, "Um, well, I don't know. Maybe. We don't know. We haven't seen them." You know?
- MCMike Campbell
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Like everything just gets done, pretty quiet, people just help each other. You know, it's better, not very exciting.
- MCMike Campbell
Right.
- SSSimon Sinek
Um, however, that said, you know, in times of extreme stress that can't work. The whole like, "Hey, I'd like to get your opinion," and, "How are you feeling today?" In times of extreme stress it doesn't work. And so that command and control mentality does need to be able to turn on and turn off rarely.
- MCMike Campbell
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
So I was talking to some Marines. A Marine, uh, I, I visited, uh, Quantico, uh, where the-
- MCMike Campbell
Okay
- SSSimon Sinek
... Marine Corps selects its officers, OCS. Any Marines in the audience?
- MCMike Campbell
Any Marines?
- SPSpeaker
One.
- SSSimon Sinek
There's one.
- MCMike Campbell
Oh, there we go.
- SSSimon Sinek
Okay. Uh, so, uh, um, and we were talking about it which is despite what you see on the TV from the military and Marine Corps, they're not screaming and yelling at everybody all the time and-
- MCMike Campbell
Right
- SSSimon Sinek
... telling them what to do. It's just not how it is. There's a lot of feedback, there's a lot of what do you think, there's a lot of leaders getting input from other people-
- MCMike Campbell
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... because more information and perspectives you get benefits your decision-making ability. You know, nobody expects you to have all the answers. It's ridiculous. So getting points of view and perspective is really important. But in combat, in times of extreme stress where the trust has already been built, 'cause you can't just show up and expect everybody to trust you. That's not how it works. In good times you build the trust.
- MCMike Campbell
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
And then in extreme stress you can turn that command and control on and everybody trusts that you're giving them orders that are probably in, in everybody's best interest that... And they trust. And when that, and when that's gone you turn it off.
- MCMike Campbell
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Um, and so you s- a good leader knows how to adapt for the situations and personalities that w- they work with. They don't expect their people to adapt to them.
- 6:05 – 10:30
Humility in leadership
- SSSimon Sinek
there's not a single person in this room, total of zero, that has achieved what they've achieved, accomplished what they've accomplished, and arrived where they're arrived by themselves.
- MCMike Campbell
Right.
- SSSimon Sinek
Zero.
- MCMike Campbell
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Every single one of us, somebody took a bet on us, somebody gave us a, a, an opportunity, somebody put us in the position that we could completely screw it up, and maybe we did, and then they said, "Try again." And I think for anybody to have anything other than gratitude and humility for anything that they've accomplished, I, I, I would be very suspicious of those-- uh, I gu- I guarantee there's a lot of fear and insecurity underlying, which at some point is, is gonna, is gonna, is gonna backfire. Humility, humility is, is everything in leadership. Um, and, uh, and you see it in, in all the best leaders. They're-- When you compliment them, they go, "It wasn't just me."
- MCMike Campbell
Right.
- SSSimon Sinek
You'll see it all the time.
- MCMike Campbell
Yep. Trust me on that. [chuckles] That-- Everybody here knows that's the case.
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- MCMike Campbell
This team right here when it's me. Every-- No, never, nobody ever says that comment to Mike. It's like, "No, we all know it's his team." It's obvious. But, uh, you do talk about a story of, um, that I've heard you talk about, the undersecretary.
- SSSimon Sinek
Oh.
- MCMike Campbell
Can you maybe share that story-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- MCMike Campbell
... with everybody? I think this is powerful. I, I-
- SSSimon Sinek
I-- Yeah. It's my single favorite story that I think I've ever told. It's 100% true, too. Some of the ones not so much. [laughs]
- MCMike Campbell
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
Uh, uh, so a, an, a former undersecretary of defense was giving a speech at a large busin- a large conference much like this, and in the middle of his speech, he was sort of-- took a sip from this cup of coffee he was holding, this Styrofoam cup, and he interrupts himself and smiles, and he says, "You know, last year I was still the undersecretary. Last year I spoke at this exact same conference, but I was still the undersecretary. Last year they flew me here business class. Um, there was somebody waiting for me at the airport to take me to the hotel. When I got to the hotel, someone had already checked me in. They just gave me my key. Um, when I came down in the morning, there was a car waiting for me, and they took me to the same venue. They took me backstage. They took me through the back entrance. They took me into a green room, and they handed me a cup of coffee in a beautiful ceramic cup." He says, "I'm no longer the undersecretary. I flew here coach. Um, I took a taxi to the airport, checked my-- uh, took a taxi to the hotel-"
- MCMike Campbell
Right
- SSSimon Sinek
"... checked myself in."
- MCMike Campbell
Yep.
- SSSimon Sinek
"Took another taxi this morning to the venue, came in the front entrance, found my way backstage, and when I asked somebody, 'Do you have any coffee?' they pointed to the coffee machine in the corner, and I poured myself a cup of coffee into this here Styrofoam cup." He says, "The lesson is, is the ceramic cup was never meant for me. It was meant for the position I held. I deserve a Styrofoam cup." And I think this is the lesson that every one of us has to remember. As you gain seniority in an organization, it does come with perks.
- MCMike Campbell
Yep.
- SSSimon Sinek
You get more money.
- MCMike Campbell
Right.
- SSSimon Sinek
You get a parking, a better parking space.
- MCMike Campbell
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
If you leave your jacket in another room, someone will go get your jacket for you. If you're a junior, you get your own jacket, right? Like, people will treat you differently, and it does come with perks. But we have to remember, they're not giving it to us. They're giving it to the position we hold. And we have to-- We can enjoy it, but we can't feel like we're entitled or do we deserve it, and we have to be grateful for it. And when danger threatens the tribe, we have to be willing to give it up. That's the rub. I'll tell you a quick, quick addition to that. I know the CEO-- You know who the CEO is, and you know who this company is.
- MCMike Campbell
Okay.
- SSSimon Sinek
But we'll leave those details out.
- MCMike Campbell
Yep. No, no, we're good.
- 10:30 – 15:00
The inspiration behind Start with Why
- SSSimon Sinek
like all of my work, is semi-autobiographical. You know, it's my journey. Uh, none of my books are complete. They all leave off where I am in that moment. And, uh, Start With Why wasn't supposed to be a book. It wasn't supposed to be a TED Talk. It wasn't supposed to be a speech. It wasn't supposed to be any of those things. It came at a period in my life where I had lost my passion for my own work.
- MCMike Campbell
Hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
I owned a small little business, had good clients, was doing good work, and I completely fell out of love with my work. And because superficially my life looked pretty good, I was very embarrassed that I didn't wanna go to work anymore. And I kept that feeling to myself.
- MCMike Campbell
So you had the feeling, you knew you had the feeling, you just weren't-
- SSSimon Sinek
Oh, no, I, I didn't, I, I had no mo-
- MCMike Campbell
... weren't open about that feeling, you're saying.
- SSSimon Sinek
I had no passion and no motivation.
- MCMike Campbell
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
And I was like, you know, I didn't wanna be like, "I don't wanna go to work. I'm, I'm unmotivated." And people are like, "Oh, poor you." You know?
- MCMike Campbell
Right. Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
So I kept it to myself. And for anybody who's ever had a dark feeling, if you keep it to yourself, it gets worse. Um, and that's exactly what happened to me. It festered, and it grew. It turned into paranoia. It turned into depression. It was a, it was pretty, it was pretty dark. And it wasn't till a very dear friend of mine came to me and said, "Something's, something's wrong." I was good at lying, hiding, and faking every day, and she could see right through it. And I came clean.
- MCMike Campbell
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And it was this huge weight lifted off my shoulders, uh, not because I had a solution. It's because I no longer felt alone. And when you don't feel alone in your challenges, it's amazing the energy that you can find to actually fix those things. And because I no longer felt alone, I-- all of that energy that went into lying, hiding, and faking every day, I turned to finding a solution to reignite my passion, and the solution that I found was this thing called the why. I knew what I did.
- MCMike Campbell
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
It was crystal clear. I knew how I did it. That was fine. But it became abundantly clear to me that I didn't know why I was doing it. It was only meant for me. It worked I shared it with my friends, it worked for them. They asked me to share it with their friends, it worked for them. And before you know it, I was getting invitations to share it with other people.
- MCMike Campbell
So I, I, I believe that your WHY gets set when you're young, right? Um, or, or when you start to think about you being a young Simon, what were you like as a kid?
- SSSimon Sinek
You were thinking about what it's like for young Simon?
- MCMike Campbell
I-- No, I was thinking to myself. You had to think to yourself-
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- MCMike Campbell
... what was it like?
- SSSimon Sinek
So, so, uh, our WHYs, uh... By the way, there's only how-- People are like, "What's my work WHY and what's my personal WHY?" No, you have one WHY. "Well, my WHY has changed." No, it hasn't, because we are products of our upbringing. You are who you are because of the experiences you had when you were raised.
- MCMike Campbell
Right.
- SSSimon Sinek
And I am who I am for the same reasons. And you can't change who you are. You're e- you can either be, uh, authentic or not. You can either live in balance with who you are, but you don't get to just change it, right? So you only have one WHY, and it's fully formed by your mid to late teens. That's it. The youngest person I did a WHY discovery with was about 16. Um, and now the opportunity for your life is to make choices and decisions that allow you to be your natural best, and that's the hard part.
- MCMike Campbell
Right. Okay.
- SSSimon Sinek
The hard part is implementing it. But yeah, that is correct. You only have one WHY, and it's, it's there from, from your mid to late teens. That's 100% true.
- MCMike Campbell
And when, when you think about it, there's a lot of people that are saying to themselves, "Uh, this is an interesting concept," like, "I don't even know if I have a WHY." Uh, how, how do you think they could go about figuring out what is their WHY?
- SSSimon Sinek
So the reason we can't-- Like, we think to ourselves, "I don't-- Do I even have a WHY?" It's not because it doesn't exist. It's because the part of the brain where the WHY exists in the limbic brain controls all of our feelings, like inspiration, like trust, like love, like loyalty. It controls behavior, right? But it doesn't control language. Um, and so it's very hard to verbalize feelings, right?
- MCMike Campbell
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Like when you sit down with somebody you love or somebody you're angry with, it's, it-- these are complicated, difficult conversations sometimes because it's hard to verbalize feelings, right? It's just a problem with being human.
- MCMike Campbell
Yep.
- 15:00 – 18:19
The Friends Exercise
- SSSimon Sinek
are too close and it won't work. A friend who loves you, and you s- ask them this question: "Why are we friends?" And they're gonna look at you like you're crazy, 'cause it's hard to verbalize why we're friends with each other, right? And so they'll start h- They'll look at you like you're nuts. And then-
- MCMike Campbell
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... then, then for, for, for... Then you weirdly stop asking the question why, and you ask the question what, 'cause you wanna engage the rational brain. So you say, "Come on, come on, come on. What specifically is it about me that I know that you'd be there for me no matter what?" And they'll start describing you. "You're f- funny. You're always there for me. I trust you." And you play devil's advocate. "Good, that's the definition of a friend. You have that with lots of people. What specifically is it about me that I know you'd be there for me no matter what?" And they're gonna go through a few rounds of this. And it-
- MCMike Campbell
But they keep going. You can still keep pressing-
- SSSimon Sinek
And it's, and it's gonna get more-
- MCMike Campbell
... and they're going to do it
- SSSimon Sinek
... and it's gonna get more frustrating, right? And at some point they'll give up. At some point they'll give up, and they'll start describing themselves. And this is what my friend said to me. My friend said, "I don't know, Simon. All I know is that I can sit in a room with you, I don't even have to talk to you, and I feel inspired." And I got goosebumps, right? So in other words, what they're doing is they're articulating my value in their lives-
- MCMike Campbell
Yep
- SSSimon Sinek
... which is the thing that I give to the world, which is my WHY. And the reason I had an emotional response is because it's deep inside of me. So you will get to something where they s- they'll say something about themselves, and you will either get goosebumps or you'll well up with tears. You'll have an emotional reaction. I did it with multiple friends. They say very similar, if not the exact same thing, because the f- space I fill in their lives is my WHY. That's the thing I work hard to give to the world.
- MCMike Campbell
And so is that what happened with you? Your-- A friend said that, and then is that literally when you said, "Okay, now my WHY is to give-"
- SSSimon Sinek
No, no. That's not how I figured out my WHY.
- MCMike Campbell
Oh, okay.
- SSSimon Sinek
But I, this is, I figured out a way to help people find their-
- MCMike Campbell
Figured out other people to help.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- MCMike Campbell
Little people like me. Like, that's kind of that, that's what you meant.
- SSSimon Sinek
It works-
- MCMike Campbell
I got it.
- SSSimon Sinek
It works, however.
- MCMike Campbell
[laughs] Hey, uh, speaking of that, though, has, have, has there been anybody that you've ever kind of talked to about their WHY and it surprised you?
- SSSimon Sinek
It's never surprised me. Um, I love doing WHY discoveries with people I like, because it informs why I like them. [chuckles]
- MCMike Campbell
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
'Cause the, whatever it is, is about them, like, oh, I, I love, oh, love-
- MCMike Campbell
Mike, you can say it.
- SSSimon Sinek
I love Mike.
- MCMike Campbell
Yeah, I know you're thinking it.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- MCMike Campbell
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
So, uh-
- MCMike Campbell
It's okay. We got that on tape. It's proof.
- 18:19 – 22:55
Applying the WHY to business
- MCMike Campbell
in our interaction with customers or in prospects? Is there-
- SSSimon Sinek
Oh my God, yes. Um, okay, so I think I wrote about this in Start with Why. Um- But for me, interacting in a relationship, whether it's a sales relationship or going on a date, it's all the same thing. So what's the difference between a sales call and a date, right? You're sitting across from somebody and hoping to close the deal, right?
- MCMike Campbell
[laughs] Yes.
- SSSimon Sinek
I mean, you know, however you define deal.
- MCMike Campbell
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
Right? And so think about-- Let, so let's, let's take, let's take our, our-
- MCMike Campbell
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Let's take a hypothetical character. We'll call him Mike, right?
- MCMike Campbell
[laughs] Okay.
- SSSimon Sinek
And let's send Mike on a date, right? Now Mike, we set Mike up. H-His friends set him up, and the way they, they, they sort of pitched the, the, the, the girl to him, they said, "You're gonna love her. Like she's-"
- MCMike Campbell
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
"... gorgeous, and she's, like, super rich, and she's, like, super famous. You're gonna love her," right? And you're like, "I'm in," right?
- MCMike Campbell
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
So we send Mike on his date, and he sits down across from the table, and this is how the date goes. Um, "I'm, I'm really successful. I'm like... I've done really well. And, uh, I've got a great-- a, and a beautiful house. You really should come by sometime. And, you know, I'm good-looking, which is great 'cause I go on TV all the time, and I know a lot of famous people," you know? Now, the question is, is, is Mike gonna get a second date, right?
- MCMike Campbell
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
And it's so obvious-
- MCMike Campbell
Right
- SSSimon Sinek
... that that's not a good way to go on a date.
- MCMike Campbell
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Now let's tr- now let's pretend it's a sales call. "You know, we're the largest company in the market. Um, we've got amazing offices. You really should come by sometime. Uh, you've probably seen our TV commercials. Uh, you know, very, very successful company." Uh, so if we know inherently, instinctively, that that date was appalling, why would you think that's a good sales call?
- MCMike Campbell
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right? Um, now let's send Mike out again, except this time Mike's gonna start with why, right? He sits down and he goes, "I gotta tell ya, I, I just got here from work. I mean, I, I love, I love my job. I get to wake up every single day to inspire people to do the things that inspire them. That's my work. Like, could you think of anything more fulfilling? And here's the craziest part. Like, I made a bunch of money because of it, and I got a, bought a big house because of it. You should come by sometime. And I got to meet, like, a whole bunch of famous people, and it's just been an, an amazing journey." Profoundly different.
- MCMike Campbell
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
All the stuff is still there, but profoundly different simply because you started with why.
- MCMike Campbell
Why.
- SSSimon Sinek
And the joke is, is you were, both of you, both you and, and, and the, and the person you set on a date with, were both told about the stuff when you agreed to go on the date. Like somebody said, "You should meet with this company, you know? They're really big in the market. You should y- " And people say, "Sure, I'll take the meeting." But that's not what makes people want to connect with you and do business with you.
- MCMike Campbell
Yep.
- SSSimon Sinek
And so there's multiple ways, so to have a good sales meeting when you start with why. Number one, you could talk about yourself. You say, "I love this company. Let me tell you a specific story that happened to me why I love this company," right? So people resonate when you have passion for the thing you love. You can say the company's why, right? "So let me tell you what we stand for, which quite frankly is a great way to get out of bed in the morning. Like, to work for a company that cares about that before everything else, let me tell you, pretty inspiring," right? And you can tell, even if you don't have the words, even if the company hasn't properly articulated the why or you don't f- actually know your why, you can tell a story. You can tell me, "Let me tell you this one time when..." dot, dot, dot, to exemplify it.
- MCMike Campbell
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
To capture the love, the emotion. And then all the stuff can come out afterwards. But the people who will fall in love with doing business with you, they believe what you believe. That's why they wanna do business with you, and it's why they're loyal to you. You're always gonna attract people who do business with you because you happen to show up at the right time, you happen to be the right price, you happen to have this. That's the commodity stuff. Those people are not loyal.
- 22:55 – 31:00
Creating successful strategies
- MCMike Campbell
the strategies. How do you, how do we make sure that we're one of the ones that are successful about achieving it? Like, is there anything we could learn from those companies that-
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- MCMike Campbell
Yeah. Ev- like, 'cause there's a lot of people who have good strategies.
- SSSimon Sinek
Sure.
- MCMike Campbell
But there's only some that execute very well. How do we make sure that we could be one of those that executes really well?
- SSSimon Sinek
So let's be crystal clear what a strategy is, right? A strategy is a path you take. That's what it is, right? It's not the product. That's the, you know... The tactical stuff are the tangible, measurable st- things, right? That's, that's up front, right? The strategy is the path we choose. And so let me, let me, let me sort of like follow the analogy. So I think of a company like a car, right? We don't buy cars in order to buy gas. That's not the purpose of a car, right? The purpose of a car is to go somewhere. Clearly, gas is the thing we use to make it go somewhere, right? And so it's the same for a company. The purpose of a company is not to make money. The purpose of a company is to go somewhere, to do something, to have some sort of impact in the world or give something to somebody or make their lives a little easier or entertain them or whatever it is. It's, it's a, it's a, it's a thing outside. And clearly we need to make money because money is the gas that makes us be able to do this wonderful thing.
- MCMike Campbell
Yep.
- SSSimon Sinek
But the car is the car, and the car is based on the great companies. The best companies are values-based, right? And those values don't change. This is how we got here. These are the values that got us here.
- MCMike Campbell
Yep.
- SSSimon Sinek
And we can change. We realize that because of changing technology, changing tastes, changing politics, changing culture, the world we're in, we have to change the path that we're on. We have to take the car down a different route, but we don't fundamentally change the car. You don't say, "Our new strategy is to go from a Volkswagen to a BMW." That won't work. And by the way, it's not worked for car companies as well. Volkswagen came out with a $70,000 luxury car and nobody bought it. Why? 'Cause nobody's spending $70,000 to have a VW badge on the front of their car.
- MCMike Campbell
Yeah. [laughs] Right.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right?
- MCMike Campbell
Totally.
- SSSimon Sinek
When Honda wanted a premium car, they called it an Acura. When Toyota wanted a premium car, they called it a Lexus. Different.
- MCMike Campbell
Right.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right?
- MCMike Campbell
Yep.
- SSSimon Sinek
They changed the path, but the values remained a constant, and that's very, very important. The best organizations-- Because you can't come in with a new strategy, change the car, change everything, because you're gonna need all new people. The people you have here, they've been raised in a certain culture, they've been raised with a certain set of values, and you can't suddenly abandon those. You can absolutely change direction. And I'll tell you what happens to companies who don't change direction, right? So Apple invented iTunes, not the music industry. Netflix pioneered streaming, not the television and movie industry. Amazon invented the e-reader, the Kindle, and not the publishing industry. What? It's because those companies were so fixated on staying on one path that they completely missed the fact that the world around them was changing. And so good companies absolutely ne-need strategies for a different world.
- MCMike Campbell
Yep.
- SSSimon Sinek
It's a different world. But, but, but not at the expense of the company. And at the, at the expense of beat- uh, beating a dead horse here, let's look at Disney. Disney's a great example of a company with really strong values that is still built on the foundation that Walt Disney said. If you go to Disneyland, right, right there on a plaque that was written in, like, 1957, "Through these gates you will leave behind your stresses and come into a world of imagination," or whatever it says, right? And that hasn't changed since the '50s, right? The foundation of this company, good clea- good, clean family fun. But there was a little period-- And by the way, as a result, they could attract the best talent. People were loyal. Like, y- it was just an amazing company. And there was a little period near the end of Michael Eisner's tenure where he decided to abandon the values and become obsessed with world domination, right?
- MCMike Campbell
Right. Yep.
- SSSimon Sinek
And nobody really knows why, 'cause it's still the same company. But he tried to change-- By announcing these new strategies, what he was actually doing was changing the foundations. And all of a sudden, they couldn't attract the best talent, and all of a sudden, people weren't happy to pay a premium, and all of a sudden, where they were treated as an exception, now they were just an evil corporation, just lumped in with all the others. When Bob Iger and Tom Staggs took over, the first thing they did, they said, was, "Okay, put strategy aside. Let's go back to values first. Let's make sure our values are intact." And they looked at the portfolio, and they saw that they owned companies that they were the, they were, they had a production company, Buena Vista, that m- that, that, that made Quentin Tarantino films. They had a, a, a record label that, um, that had a, a, a band on it called World War III. It was a death metal band. Like, as I say these things to you, they, they don't make sense that they should be in the Disney portfolio. So the first thing they did, even though these were profitable entities, they completely divested of them because it didn't make sense. It, it diluted, it broke the car. It, it, it was making it something it wasn't simply to chase market, right? Um, they got rid of all of that. They returned to basics. They got back to the values. And now they said, "Okay, now what's the path we can take? What are the routes that we can take to advance this set of values in a modern world?" And then you saw Disney skyrocket once again-
- MCMike Campbell
Back again, yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... and get all that trust back. So, so you can have whatever strategy fits the market, but the strategy is the path you're taking to advance your values in the world. That's what it is.
- MCMike Campbell
And is there any key values that you, that we need to make sure you hold onto in that?
- SSSimon Sinek
All-- The values of an organization, like you and me, like our why is the sum total of how we were raised, organizations are exactly the same. Strong organizations are the sum total of where they were born. A why is ostensibly an origin story. Disney is Walt Disney. Apple is Steve Jobs. Virgin is Richard Branson. Your origin story, your founders, how this organization was built, the foundations you built are the things that make you who you are, which is why you attracted the talent and why the talent wants to stay here and say, "I feel like I belong here." So whatever those values are, and there's rarely more than five, between three and five. If you have more than five, there's probably overlap. And the, one of the big mistakes people make when they talk about values, they write generic values on the wall. Innovation, integrity, right? Honesty. You know, if you have to write honesty on the wall, you have much bigger problems, right? [laughs] But those things are usually nonsense written by a couple of executives in a, in a, in a s- some value session, right? They're not based on anything, right? They're aspirational. Values are not aspirational. Values are the behaviors you do, the behaviors you perform when you are operating at your natural best, right? And what you're trying-- You don't always operate at your natural best, but you wanna articulate those things that are always present, always there when you're operating at your natural best. So the values should be written as verbs. So it's not integrity, it's do the right thing. It's not innovation. You can't walk into someone office, someone's office and just be like, "Stacy, a little more innovation this week, please." Right? Nobody, nobody knows what to do, right? But you can say, "Look at the problem from a different angle." And then you can say, "Have you looked at this problem from a different angle?" Right? Honesty. Tell the truth, right?
- MCMike Campbell
Right.
- SSSimon Sinek
So they should be written as verbs.
- MCMike Campbell
Verbs. Action verbs.
- SSSimon Sinek
They should be written as actions, and they are the patterns that exist when you're operating at your natural best, and those things have to remain constant no matter what your strategy is.
- 31:00 – 34:47
Change management
- SSSimon Sinek
No, they do not. People fear sudden change. People fear uncertainty, right? That's what people fear. Change is not the problem. It's how we do change that's a problem. And one of the things I think most, almost every organization on the planet, big or small, can do better is communicate, right? 'Cause communication, e- honest communication, like if you don't know the answer, don't lie. Everybody knows you're lying. It's like your kids know when you're stressed out, even you're like, "Everything's fine," right?
- MCMike Campbell
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs] And you're saying that so your kids will feel better, but they know you're lying, and it makes them more stressed 'cause they don't know why you're lying to me, right? It's the same at work. And one of the big mistakes companies make is they don't bring the people along the journey, right? So for example, this is what usually happens. For months, somebody in the higher h- you know, all the way up in the top will say, "I, I had this idea in the shower this morning. What do you think about this?" And then the next day go-- somebody goes, "You know, I was thinking about that idea you told me about. I think you're right. The world around us is changing. We need to be aware of that insight that you told me." And then somebody else goes, "What if we did this?" And like three or four months later, somebody's like, "This is a great new strategy. I think we should do this strategy." And then all of a sudden the strategy is announced. But it took months to get there and everybody went on the journey.
- MCMike Campbell
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
So it wasn't so sudden for the executives. But all of a sudden it's like, "We have an announcement. We're changing directions." And everybody's like, " [gasps] What happened with the other direction?" Right?
- MCMike Campbell
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
Bring people along. Say, "Hey, we're thinking about this. We had this insight. We're not sure what to do with it, but it's interesting." Because by the time you get to the announcement, I don't believe in ta-das, right? Like, wait for it. Wait for it. Ta-da. Right? Look how smart we are, right? I believe that y- the way effective communication works is you bring people along on the journey, you include all the uncertainty. It allows you a lot of flexibility to be like, "Yeah, yeah, we abandoned that idea," right? It allows you a lot of flexibility, and by the time you get to the ta-da, everybody's like, "Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. To- totally makes sense. Of course. Of course."
- MCMike Campbell
Right. Right.
- SSSimon Sinek
Of course. So you're gonna have a lot fewer people, 'cause the reason you get resistance to changes of strategies is not because people necessarily disagree with the strategy. It's because they're afraid how it affects them. It's just insecurity and fear.
- MCMike Campbell
Communication.
- SSSimon Sinek
It's just communication.
- MCMike Campbell
Open transparency.
- SSSimon Sinek
Open transparency.
- MCMike Campbell
Yep.
- SSSimon Sinek
And again, it doesn't mean you have to be right. And when people ask questions like, "Why are you nervous?" Or, "Do you know the answer?" It's okay to say, "W- w- we've thought about that, but we don't have an answer yet. But like you, we're not sure. We're, we'll get back to you." Like, there's nothing wrong with saying that. It just makes people relax as opposed to giving some nonsense answer that everybody knows is a nonsense answer.
- MCMike Campbell
Right. Yep.
- SSSimon Sinek
So just I think open and honest communication and bring people along on the journey and ask for help. Because the people at the top, this is David Marquet's work, the people at the top have all the authority and none of the information, and people at the bottom have all the information and none of the authority, right? And so you wanna, you wanna close those gaps because if you're looking to change how to implement a strategy, it's good for senior people to come up with strategy, but implementation of strategy, go to the front lines and say, "How would you do this?" In fact, start having those questions before you lay it in stone 'cause you might find out you lay it in stone and then it's unimplementable.
- MCMike Campbell
Learn about it before.
- SSSimon Sinek
Con-
- MCMike Campbell
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Bring people into the-- Bring frontline people into the meetings and say, "What do you think?"
- MCMike Campbell
Yep.
- SSSimon Sinek
And then you'll feel that everybody's along for the ride.
- MCMike Campbell
The, um... So I think, I think we've done a, a good job of trying to do that so far, and I feel really good and hopefully, uh, people agree with that 'cause we definitely engage folks all in the process.
- SSSimon Sinek
And if they disagree, they can simply raise their hand and say, "Can I ask you a question?"
- MCMike Campbell
That's a great point.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- MCMike Campbell
Yeah. So how about this, this team, we have, uh, been fortunate over the years to have very good sales team that has been, uh, extremely successful. Uh, but now we've got the highest targets that we've ever had set out, uh, in front of us as we get ready to think about 2025. I mean, how, how should
- 34:47 – 41:10
Motivation and opportunity
- MCMike Campbell
people-- How do they just think about getting motivated about that kind of an opportunity and, and view it as an opportunity as opposed to something that's just unachievable?
- SSSimon Sinek
So [laughs] successful A-type personalities that very often find themselves in sales roles 'cause suits the personality, right? Goal-oriented, you know, that kind of stuff, um, don't like failure, like to achieve. And so when the goals get aggressive, it creates a little un- like, a little, like, ugh, right? And I, I actually just had this, uh, this conversation with somebody on my team where I set out something pretty, pretty aggressive and somebody on my team goes, "I think we should change it. I, I don't think that's achievable." And I go, "Well, let's, let's try and fail at 80%," right?
- MCMike Campbell
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
And they-- And I said, "Why, why so, why so, why so coy?" And she said, "I d-" She goes, "I don't like to fail, and I don't think you do either." And my answer was, "Oh, I'm actually very comfortable with failure. I've actually had very few successes in my life. In fact, most of my life I would v- view as a failure because my ambitions are vastly bigger than anything I've been able to achieve, and I'm okay with that." And so I think being comfortable with the fact that it's really fun to strive for big because you're moving the needle further than everybody else. And this is where the infinite mindset sets in, which is if you set a bold goal and you fail at 80%, the game isn't over. It's still going. The-- It's, it's fine. And usually what we do is we, we-- Remember, every single goal we set is arbitrary. Uh, here's how goals happen. Couple people sitting in a room go, "I think, well, the sh- the, the goal should be this." And somebody goes, "I bet we could do this." "Okay, let's make it that." And that's the goal, right?
- MCMike Campbell
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
Like-
- MCMike Campbell
Wow, this is starting to sound more familiar than... [laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
You know, and maybe they look at market data and they look at past performance. But basically it's, it's just fiction. It's just fun, right?
- MCMike Campbell
You realize I need a job after this.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- MCMike Campbell
Right? Like- [laughs] I mean-
- SSSimon Sinek
I'm also aware that I leave.
- MCMike Campbell
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
But, but, th- the, but all joking aside, right? So this-- we, we misunderstand business. We treat business like a sporting event, like there's a score at the end of the game and then the game ends. But that's not how business is. There's no end of the game. Only if you go bankrupt and cease to exist, that's the only end of the game. It's, it's the, it's, it's simply a, it's a, it's a, it's an infinite journey. There's no winning business. You will never win at whatever it is you're doing, nor will, will you ever be the best because you get to decide the metrics that make you the best. You know? So you can pick your own metrics, and you can be the best or the worst. Um, and so we have to think of it more like a lifestyle. So let's say it's like exercise. Like, what are the things we're gonna have to do to achieve this goal? Okay, what are the things that I have to do to lose weight? Okay, well, I want to hit this goal. I want to be this weight by this date. It's exactly the same as work, right? We want to hit this sales target by this date, usually the end of the financial year because that's when we have to pay taxes. Right? But they're both arbitrary. And then we do all the things we have to do. We eat right, we exercise, you know, we get enough sleep, all the things we have to do to be healthy, and every day we're weighing ourselves, and some days it's good, some days it's bad. And then on the date, we look at our, our weight, and we hit our goal, and we celebrate. But the problem is the game's not over. You don't get to stop exercising. You have to keep exercising for the rest of your life, right? So, like, business doesn't end because you hit a goal. Congratulations. Now what are you gonna do tomorrow?
- MCMike Campbell
Yep.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right? But I'm more-
- MCMike Campbell
This is our world, baby.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- MCMike Campbell
We live it every day. [laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah. But I'm actually more interested in the opposite, right? What happens if you miss your goal? What happens if you've been doing all the right things but you miss your goal? Have you failed? No. You just picked the wrong date and the wrong time. You're probably healthier than you've ever been in your entire life, and clearly you're gonna hit it f- two months from now. We can, we-- The trend data is more important, and great organizations don't just look at the absolute accomplishment. They look at how you got there, right? Because that's really important, because if the trend data's good and we're doing all the right things, then we, we're okay, right? And also, it also goes to the kinds of leaders we're, we're promoting, right? Um, because if you're promoting, y- y- you know, you get to the end of the sales year, you know, you pick up all the phones, you dial for dollars, you're going crazy, you leverage all your relationships, you drop the price, you offer a bunch of promotions, you offer a bunch of free stuff, ram, ram, ram, you hit, you hit the number. But what-
- MCMike Campbell
We don't do it that way, but that's fine. I'm sure other companies do. We don't give away any of that, but that's okay. I got you. I, I was following the-
- SSSimon Sinek
Y- I, did I lost you on that?
- MCMike Campbell
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
But the point is, is there are a lot of bad leaders who hit the numbers, who work their people too hard, they're aggressive, they're micromanagers, and they hit numbers, and we keep promoting those people. And we're sending a signal to the rest of the company saying, "I don't actually care what kind of person you are. If you hit your numbers, you'll do well at this company." So guess what kind of culture you're gonna get.
- MCMike Campbell
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
You get Wells Fargo opening fake accounts. That's what you get, because the numbers become more important than how we do business. Whereas if you look at some of the, the, the best leaders, they have great teams with a lot of trust, no churn, nobody's fi- getting fired, nobody's quitting, there's high morale on that team, and you can see steadiness, where usually those other teams with those crazy leaders, the, it looks like this. But you see this beautiful, steady slope, and yet we don't h- tend to highlight and promote those leaders because sometimes they didn't hit the right number on the right date, right?
- MCMike Campbell
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Absolute, the accomplishments matter. Don't get me wrong. The me- the metrics matter, but I always want to know how they got there. I always want to know the people who are leading how we got there, because I want to preserve the best leaders, and I want to coach the bad ones.
- MCMike Campbell
So the, uh, you know, it-- being in technology, there are lots of, uh, people who don't know me who think that I am good with technology. The, the ones who do actually know I absolutely don't know anything about it. But, um, there, so there's mi- misperceptions that people have, right? Just because they assume a title or whatever they read about you. So are there-- What are, what are one of the biggest misperceptions that people have about you?
- 41:10 – 43:35
Misconceptions about Simon Sinek
- SSSimon Sinek
Uh, there's a list of them. [laughs] People think I'm extremely organized and are very surprised to come into my home and find that it's not organized. My old assistant called me a surface abuser. If there's a horizontal surface, I'll fill it.
- MCMike Campbell
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
Uh, it's true. Um, I also struggle to read. Uh, I have pretty bad ADHD, and so, uh, I've really, I've, I've, I, I've written more books than I've read. Uh, that is not a joke. That is a true statement. People think I read everything and I've read everything because of the work that I do. I, I've, I've started a lot of books. I finished very few. I finished "Da Vinci Code." What an amazing book.
- MCMike Campbell
"Da Vinci Code," yes.
- SSSimon Sinek
So good. Couldn't, couldn't put it down.
- MCMike Campbell
No.
- SSSimon Sinek
It's the only book I've ever said-
- MCMike Campbell
You don't have to feel bad. My wife tells me that's the only book I've ever read.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- MCMike Campbell
Like, it's true.
- SSSimon Sinek
Um, uh, so I think people misperceive, um-
- MCMike Campbell
But everyone assumes that you, not only just because you're a writer, but just because you're constantly thinking and looking for trends-
- SSSimon Sinek
Right. And so I-
- MCMike Campbell
... we would all assume you would be reading.
- SSSimon Sinek
I, it, and, and I, I, I read articles and I read the newspaper, but I d- I struggle to read books. And, um, and I think what it does is, y- you know, there's all these quotes of smart people like, "If you don't read, you can't accomplish." And all it does is put a lot of pressure on people like me who, um, don't read, so. Um, and I think the better course is, is to learn how you learn and do that. If you learn by reading, read a lot. If you learn by listening, have a lot of con- conversations with people. If you learn-- So I think out loud, so I need-
- MCMike Campbell
Yep.
- SSSimon Sinek
So this is not me answering your questions. Y- Every question you've ans- you've asked me, I'm thinking.
- MCMike Campbell
You're thinking, right.
- SSSimon Sinek
Which is why my answers tend to be long.
- MCMike Campbell
Yeah, I was gonna give you the wrap it up on a couple of them, but I think for-
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- MCMike Campbell
... most of the parts have been pretty good.
- SSSimon Sinek
I mean, which is why, why, why my answers tend to be long. It's because I'm, I'm thinking it through, but you're listening to me think. Um, and so I think what's really important is not worry about how everybody else learns, but learn how you learn. But most people misperceive that I'm, that I learn one way when I learn the opposite.
- MCMike Campbell
Yeah. That's, that's actually powerful for all of us to be thinking about. So I wanna, I wanna go back a little bit to 2016 when you, uh, shared some, uh, some people use the term provocative ideas about digital addiction and how it was affecting millennials in the workplace. And I, I was just curious, now that we are coming up on a decade later,
- 43:35 – 52:00
Cell phones, social media, and friendship
- MCMike Campbell
are, is it, is it still affecting the same way? And then what happens about the next, like Gen Z? Same thing happening? Have we made any improvements? Have we-- Has that changed? Maybe you can just pontificate a little on that one.
- SSSimon Sinek
I think the difference is, is it's, it's kinda like cigarettes, right? In the '50s and '60s, everybody was smoking because they didn't know cigarettes were bad for them, and then we got wise and like, "Cigarettes are really bad for you," but, you know, people keep smoking. I think that's where we are now. I think when I gave that, those comments, uh, you know, I don't think we were fully aware of-- It was just the beginning to recognize that th- but there wasn't a lot of studies done yet.
- MCMike Campbell
Okay.
- SSSimon Sinek
There wasn't a lot of data yet. I think now there's plenty of data where we know social media and cell phones are very addictive, very bad for you. We know about the dopamine hits. When I say dopamine hit, everybody knows what we're talking about, right? Like it's, it's-
- MCMike Campbell
But, but you wouldn't have back then. Were you even using that term back then?
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- MCMike Campbell
Is that when you first-
- SSSimon Sinek
Because I, I, I'd studied those chemicals when I wrote Leaders Eat Last, so I-- that's one of the things that got me on that bandwagon to have some of those, those, those insights. I was studying it for another reason and realized, "Oh my goodness, it's over here." Um-
- MCMike Campbell
Okay.
- SSSimon Sinek
But yeah, it's, it's, it's in, it is, it is very bad. Um, it affects adults as well as young people, obviously. But young people are much more susceptible to it because they're much, much more susceptible to a lot of things. Young people need twice the amount of dopamine as adults to get the same feel good, which means they're drinking twice the amount of alcohol. You know, it's, um, uh, you know, the analogy.
- MCMike Campbell
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Uh, so they, they're-- So, um, you know, and I think what I'm obsessed right now with is with friends, friendship. Um, uh, it's sort of my latest, the thing that I'm fascinated by and working on. Um, if you look at all, most of the challenges that we're talking about these days, the epidemic of loneliness, um, uh, rising rates of depression, anxiety, inability to cope with stress, uh, in extreme cases, suicide, friendship fixes all of those things. Friendship fixes all of those things. It's, it's the ultimate biohack. And yet if you ask people, "Are you a good friend?" Most people say yes. And if you peel the onion just a little bit, you realize that we're all pretty, actually pretty bad friends. Like, would you cancel on a friend for work, or would you cancel on work for a friend? "Oh, but my friends will understand," right? And you realize pretty quickly that we're not very good at communicating. Like, if you're having trouble in your marriage, right, if you have a fight, if there's a violation of trust, you try and talk it out, you work on it, y- you sit in the mud together, you get therapy, you try very hard to make the relationship survive. If you have a huge fight with a friend or there's a violation of trust, we just abandon friends.
- MCMike Campbell
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Like, we don't do f-friend therapy to save a friendship. Why not? And one of the, the reason I talk about this is, as adults, we're struggling with friendship, how to make them, how to maintain them, how to look after them, sometimes how to end them, how to, how to, how to repair them.
- MCMike Campbell
Yep.
- SSSimon Sinek
We're bad at it as adults. We're not teaching our kids how to make friends. When your f- when your, when your, when your kids have play dates, they all have phones. Take all the phones away, put them in a bowl, call the parents and be like-- Well, the parents called you 'cause you made the play date, but say, "Listen, we're planning on taking the phones away. If you need your kid, call me." And we know this. A lot of schools, a lot of schools wanna get rid of phones.
- MCMike Campbell
Right.
- SSSimon Sinek
It's the parents who won't let them. "Well, what if there's an emergency?" Well, call the office. They know where your kid is. Old school, right? Like, the old systems work. And so one of the things that I'm very afraid of, even while we're struggling, is we are not teaching our kids how to relate to each other, how to have fights with each other, how to resolve things, how to repair, and how to make friends, which means the epidemic that we're facing now of loneliness, stress, depression, and suicide gets worse, and our children will be the, uh, the ones struggling even more than we are.
- MCMike Campbell
So you are writing a book about friendship right now.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- MCMike Campbell
And is it, um... How, how, how should we think about friendship in the workplace?
- SSSimon Sinek
Uh, that's a great question. Um, so I think about friendships as relationships, right? Now, not every friend is a close friend, right? But the, the relationships we have at work, I think it's very funny. We make re- We spend more time at work than we do at home. We spend more time talking to our colleagues-
- MCMike Campbell
Absolutely
- SSSimon Sinek
... than we do sometimes to our own friends. And so relationships form, especially when you work in a, in a, in an organization with a strong corporate culture. We share the same values. The likelihood of us getting along is pretty high. And so when, when friendships, uh, exist in a, in a workplace, you're gonna get much, much better cooperation. You know, bad-- When there's, when we d- when we deny friendships at work or we, or, or we, uh, screw up the incentive structure, what you get is people hoarding information because it's gonna help my bonus, so I can't-- If I give it away, it's gonna hurt me. And so that's not good, hoarding information. In strong-- W-when we, we wanna help our friends, "Let me, let me give you something." So I encourage friendships at work. Yes, it does have sometimes complications, especially if there's a hierarchy, you know?
- MCMike Campbell
Right.
- SSSimon Sinek
Um, but at the end of the day, being friends with the people we work with can only be a good thing 'cause it means we get along with them. We-
- MCMike Campbell
Yep
- SSSimon Sinek
... happy for their successes, wanna support them in their struggles rather than being happy for them when they struggle, you know?
- MCMike Campbell
And do you think there's anything in, in either in your research or any of the things that you've been talking to people about that are things that we could do to be better friends?
- SSSimon Sinek
Uh, yes. I mean, it's, it's, it's just like there's no such thing as an expert leader, just like there's no such thing as an expert parent, right? All of these things are journeys, and we're always-- You're always a student parent, you're always a student leader. And the best leaders, the best parents, they're constantly learning. They're constantly finding new resources. They're reading books. They're reading articles. They're watching TED Talks, whatever it is, more information. They're having conversations with their friends, right? The best leaders, the best parents. Uh, and it's the same with friends, which is you have to learn how to have a difficult conversation. You have to learn how to listen. You have to learn, uh, how to have an effective confrontation. If your friend has done something that hurt your feelings, can you bring it to their attention in a way that they will hear you rather than just defend themselves and fight with you? Like, do we know how to hold space for our friends in a time of need? You know, like I was struggling, and I called up a friend and said, "Hey, can I just talk to you?" And I told them what I was going through, and they started trying to fix me. And I-- thank goodness that you can tell people in the middle and be like, "I don't need solutions. I need you to just listen."
- 52:00 – 56:35
The best leader Simon ever had
- SSSimon Sinek
in, in-- young in my career, and this is when I learned about behavior over accomplishment. Um, I was a young account executive at a big ad agency, and new business pitches were done by the senior leaders. It was the end of the year, and all the senior leaders had gone away on their holiday vacations, and me and another junior, uh, person, uh, who were assigned to work on this pitch, uh, were told, "Prep the war room," and, you know, so when all the senior bug-- folks come back, they can do the pitch. Prepping the war room means hang the research on the walls. That takes an hour, right?
- MCMike Campbell
[chuckles] Okay.
- SSSimon Sinek
We had, we had a week to kill. So we just decided to do the pitch ourselves. Like, we combed through the data, we found an insight, we wrote the deck, came up with a strategy, the whole thing. And when the senior leaders came back, we were like, "We finished." You know, like, "We did the whole deck." And they used our pitch. They used our strategy-
- MCMike Campbell
Wow.
- SSSimon Sinek
... in the pitch, and we lost the business.
- MCMike Campbell
Oh, boy. [laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
We did not win the pitch, and my boss gave me a huge promotion. They didn't just move me up one level, they moved me up two levels in one night. And what he was doing was rewarding my behavior, not my accomplishment.
- MCMike Campbell
Interesting.
- SSSimon Sinek
Because I took initiative. He was rewarding my initiative. And you know what he gets when he rewards my initiative? More initiative. If he said to me, "Look, great work, but you didn't hit it, so sorry."
- MCMike Campbell
Yep.
- SSSimon Sinek
I would never have shown any initiative after that, because why would I?
- MCMike Campbell
Right.
- SSSimon Sinek
Or I would just play it safe, you know? So one thing I learned was reward the behavior you want to be repeated. And so that was a big lesson for me. But probably the single best leader I've ever had was a guy named Peter Intemaggio. Um, Peter never answered a single question I asked him to-- It was so annoying.
- MCMike Campbell
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
"Peter, I don't know what to do. What do you think we should do?" "Well, I think we should do this, then I think you should do that." "Peter, something's gone horribly wrong. What do I do?" "I don't know. What do you think you should do?" I, I just like-- So annoying.
- MCMike Campbell
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
In the moment, I couldn't see it. I just thought he was-- I just, "Just answer my-- Please, I, I'm asking you 'cause I don't know. Isn't that obvious?" Um, but what he taught me was self-reliance, what he taught me was self-confidence, and what he taught me was accountability. Because when things went horribly wrong, he, he taught us that you couldn't go in and be like, "It got screwed up." You said, "I screwed it up." You didn't go and say, "They screwed it up." You said, "It got screwed up on my watch." Like, he taught us accountability, but we never got yelled at. I never got yelled at when something went sideways. Even-- He would sometimes get stressed, but he would say, "Well, how are you gonna fix it?"
- MCMike Campbell
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
And I always knew that he had my back, but he always made me do it, and it was the single best leader I ever had.
- MCMike Campbell
And have you implemented that same way of-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
- MCMike Campbell
... working with your teams?
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah. I mean, as best I can. I mean, I'm human. But, uh, but, uh, but yes, I'm pretty good about being laissez-faire, and I'm okay if people screw things up as long as they take-- Where I become difficult, if somebody doesn't take accountability. That, "It, it got screwed up." Really? It, it just happened?
- MCMike Campbell
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- MCMike Campbell
[laughs] Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
You know, the market.
- MCMike Campbell
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah, the market. Uh-
- MCMike Campbell
[laughs]
- 56:35 – 1:00:28
How to build cohesive teams
- SSSimon Sinek
officer saying something on a stage. I've never been brought to tears by a CEO giving a speech of any kind ever. Uh, and you realize these organizations are human values-based organizations. And the lessons are not unique to the military, but the lessons are exaggerated because the stakes are very often life and death, which is why it's so human. And so I'm always sur- I, I'm no longer surprised, but in the early days getting to know them, I was surprised how opposite it is that we think they are. Again, too many movies.
- MCMike Campbell
Right.
- SSSimon Sinek
I was talking to the, I was talking to the, um, the guy who was in charge of training for SEAL Team Six, the training director for SEAL Team Six. You have to be a regular SEALs before you're eligible to go into SEAL Team Six, right?
- MCMike Campbell
Okay.
- SSSimon Sinek
So it's, it's-
- MCMike Campbell
That's the-
- SSSimon Sinek
... it's the best of the best
- MCMike Campbell
... ultimate elite, the best of the best.
- SSSimon Sinek
The best of the best, right? And so [clears throat] they're already badasses, but what makes them different? And so I asked him, "How do you choose who gets in SEAL Team Six?" And he drew, uh, a line graph for me. He drew an X, Y axis, right? And on the, the vertical axis, he said, "This is performance." On the horizontal axis, he said, "This is trust." And the way they defined it is performance is how good are you at your job, right? Can you make the sale? Trust is what kind of person are you? What's your character, right? And he said, "Clearly, nobody wants this person on their team, the low performer of low trust, clearly."
- MCMike Campbell
Yep.
- SSSimon Sinek
"Clearly, everybody wants this person on their team, the high performer of high trust. What we learned is that this person over here, the high performer of low trust, is a toxic team member. And we would rather have a medium performer of high trust, sometimes even a low performer of high trust, it's relative scale, over the high performer of low trust," right? Now, if you think about business, we have a million metrics to measure someone's performance.
- MCMike Campbell
Right.
- SSSimon Sinek
But how many metrics do we have to measure someone's character or trustworthiness? And so what we end up doing is we take toxic team members who are high performers, and we keep promoting them because their numbers are great, and we turn them into toxic leaders, right? Because they keep doing the same thing because it's gotten me this far.
- MCMike Campbell
Yep.
- SSSimon Sinek
And that's how you break cultures.
- MCMike Campbell
And other people have seen it-
- SSSimon Sinek
How you break cultures
- MCMike Campbell
... be, be rewarded.
- SSSimon Sinek
Exactly. Exactly. And then they'll repeat the behavior to get-
- MCMike Campbell
Yep
- SSSimon Sinek
... you a promotion, right? Goes back to Dennis who promoted me for my behavior. It's exactly right. And so I think one of the things we can do better in business is consider who the person is, not just their performance. Because there are some spectacularly fantastic leaders out there on a team who are not the single biggest individual performers themselves, but because they're great leaders, they get great performance of the people around them. We usually give those people nothing, right? We usually don't recognize them. It's-- By the way, it's very easy to find the high performer of low trust.
- MCMike Campbell
High performer of low trust, yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Just go to any team and say, "Who's the asshole?"
- MCMike Campbell
Yep.
- SPSpeaker
[laughing]
- SSSimon Sinek
They'll all point to the same person.
- MCMike Campbell
They all know too.
- SSSimon Sinek
They all know. And by the way, I don't believe you should fire that person. I believe you should coach that person.
- MCMike Campbell
Yep.
- SSSimon Sinek
If somebody has performance issues or behavioral issues, we coach them, and if they prove themselves to be uncoachable-
- 1:00:28 – 1:02:45
What gives Simon hope
- SSSimon Sinek
Uh, I think, I think people tend to good, right? I'll give you a silly example. So there's an app that you can download called Apple Store, right? Not the App Store, but Apple Store.
- MCMike Campbell
Okay.
- SSSimon Sinek
And you can go into any Apple Store, retail s- retail outlet. You can pull out your phone. You can't do it with a computer or phone, but you can do it with a pair of $300 headphones. You can do it with cables, plugs, whatever you need. You can scan the item on your phone, and you can walk out, right? No bag, no nothing. Just walk out. And I-- When it first came out after a few months, I pulled one of the managers aside. I'm like, "I'm dying to know."
- MCMike Campbell
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
"What's happened to your shoplifting numbers?" And he's like, "They're exactly the same." I'm like... He says, "People who steal, steal, and people who don't steal, don't steal, and most people don't steal." People are tend to good, right? Most people are good people. Sometimes we struggle to communicate. Sometimes we're bad under pressure. But people tend to good. And so if you, uh, if we accept that people tend to good, that means the world tends to good, right? And incentive structures that we work in and the environment we work in can hijack, uh, can hijack us and make us operate at our worst selves.
- MCMike Campbell
Yep.
- SSSimon Sinek
But people wanna feel like they belong. People wanna be seen. People wanna feel like they matter. People wanna feel like their work matters. It's pretty consistent around the world. We wanna feel safe wherever we are. We want our kids to feel safe wherever they are. Pretty much it. I wanna make a living, and I want my kids to get an education. That's pretty much it around the whole world. And so I, I, I, I-- My optimism is not naive. Like, we can be in darkness. I can be like, "This is horrible, and I am stressed, and I don't know where we're going, and I am uncertain, and this is the worst time we've ever been in." But I know one thing. I know that if we take care of each other and we look after each other, I know we will get through this and come through this better than where we are now. We will come out of this even stronger than we went in. And that's what optimism is for me. It's the undying belief that the future is bright. And I believe that the future is bright because I think people are fundamentally good.
- MCMike Campbell
Well, I agree with you totally. So [clapping] And I feel even better about our world.
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- MCMike Campbell
So ladies and gentlemen, Simon Sinek. [clapping] Thank you so much, Simon.
- SSSimon Sinek
Thank you. Appreciate it.
- MCMike Campbell
This was great. I really appreciate it
Episode duration: 1:02:48
Install uListen for AI-powered chat & search across the full episode — Get Full Transcript
Transcript of episode v15QaU6bHZw
