Invention is Reinvention with entrepreneur Eric Ryan | A Bit of Optimism Podcast

Simon Sinek 0:00 What is innovation?

Eric Ryan 0:01 Creative thinking applied to business. It's a fancy word for just, like, thinking creatively. Therefore, you can charge more [laughs] to do it or take greater credit-

Simon Sinek 0:10 That's right

Eric Ryan 0:10 ... than what you really did. If it's hard, it's probably wrong. And if it flows really fast and easy, then I know it's right.

Simon Sinek 0:16 Yeah.

Eric Ryan 0:17 And when I look back at my career, when something failed, it was the same pattern over and over of, like, it was really hard, and we kinda forced our way through it. I know if I have a really good idea or if it's gonna win if it's so painfully obvious that it scares me.

Simon Sinek 0:32 Like, you can't believe that nobody else knows.

Eric Ryan 0:34 Cannot believe. At the end of the day, it's about great people and great products and being a good steward of capital. And if you can do those three things, your chances of getting [laughs] lucky enough to have a successful company matters. [whimsical music]

Simon Sinek 0:53 The reason I really wanted to have you come in, uh, is you are, beyond your spectacular energy and optimism and joy of life, you are like the entrepreneur's entrepreneur.

Eric Ryan 1:04 Hmm.

Simon Sinek 1:04 You know? You're like the patron saint of entrepreneurs, and I think that's a great place to start, which is what is an entrepreneur? 'Cause I've always made the distinction that small business owners own small businesses. Entrepreneurs solve problems. Because you can find entrepreneurs inside large corporations.

Eric Ryan 1:22 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 1:23 Right? They don't necessarily have to start-

Eric Ryan 1:25 Exactly

Simon Sinek 1:25 ... a small business. And some small business owners are entrepreneurs but not all of them.

Eric Ryan 1:28 Yes.

Simon Sinek 1:29 And so, you know, A, the, how does that sit, and B, how do you define entrepreneur? 'Cause you define yourself as an entrepreneur.

Eric Ryan 1:36 Yeah. No, it's definitely, like, who I see as part of my identity. And I think to your point of, like, a small business owner is kind of more of an... You, you're doing something a little bit more independent.

Simon Sinek 1:48 Right.

Eric Ryan 1:48 And I think an entrepreneur is really about inspiring a lot of people, whether you're doing it inside a company or you're creating something independent from scratch. And to create change, you need to inspire people and bring people along with you.

Simon Sinek 2:01 Yeah.

Eric Ryan 2:01 And I think, I think that's, that's a big difference versus somebody who's just working independently as a, whether it's a small business owner or a contractor or like...

Simon Sinek 2:07 So when you meet a young, uh, entrepreneur, or at least self-defined entrepreneur, and they say, "Eric, you know, I've got this amazing idea. I've got this amazing idea for a business. I want you to invest in me," what are the things you're looking for in their personalities? I mean, I, I buy into their ability to inspire, but that doesn't seem enough.

Eric Ryan 2:24 My first company, Method, the soap company, we were fundraising, and I noticed a huge difference when I would sit across somebody who was an entrepreneur and that was investing. There was two notable, notable individuals, Jim McCann, who started 1-800-Flowers, and Howard Schultz, who started Starbucks. They were so less interested in my plan and my, like, fictional numbers. They were so much more interested in me as an individual and, like, regardless of what your plan is, if I give you money, can I bet on you? And then I would sit with, like, funds and professional money managers, and they would dive so deep into the detail of that plan that I knew was fiction, and that was like the first lesson I really learned of, like, they really understood at the end of the day, like, ideas are easy. Execution's hard. Are you somebody who's gonna run through walls and have, to your point, that belief, that work ethic, whatever it takes to make whatever your idea is successful?

Simon Sinek 3:20 So this raises an interesting question, which is, you know, should we ever... Should entrepreneurs, especially for their first go, ever try and raise money from numbers wonks, from, from money people?

Eric Ryan 3:32 I mean, it's kind of a necessary evil depending on where you are. I mean, that's why, like, they're called angels in the beginning because they're people who save you from business death. And so those first investors are people who fundamentally don't believe potentially in your idea, but they believe in you.

Simon Sinek 3:48 Yeah, yeah.

Eric Ryan 3:48 And that's why they're, they're called friends and family rounds-

Simon Sinek 3:50 Yeah, yeah

Eric Ryan 3:50 ... 'cause you need your fr- you know. Um-

Simon Sinek 3:52 People, people who love you.

Eric Ryan 3:53 [laughs] Exactly.

Simon Sinek 3:54 They're like, "Look, I think you're an idiot, but I love you."

Eric Ryan 3:56 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 3:56 "Here, here, here's $10,000. Good luck with that. I never expect to see that money again." [laughs]

Eric Ryan 4:01 And then, and that's why there's, like, the beauty of taking money from friends and family, people you love, is, like, that puts a lot of pressure on you. You don't wanna show up at that dinner table telling Grandma, "I'm sorry I lost your money."

Simon Sinek 4:12 People may not know, know your name, but they definitely know your products, uh, Method being, as you said, your first and I think probably your most successful, your biggest, your biggest one. I mean, at least-

Eric Ryan 4:22 Yeah. I, I think Olly's getting there. I think Olly and Method are about the same size.

Simon Sinek 4:25 Okay.

Eric Ryan 4:25 Yes, I am in your homes.

Simon Sinek 4:26 Yes. Um, but Method, I remember when Method came out, uh, all those years ago, and it took the world by storm because nobody had ever thought to make the hand soap that sits next to the sink, the dish soap that sicks- sits next to the sink. Like, these things that are out in our homes, they're part of the landscape of the kitchen or the bathroom. No one ever thought to make them nice, and that's fundamentally where it started, right, is you just made the packaging beautiful.

Eric Ryan 4:57 Yeah. I mean, you look at a dish soap more than you use it.

Simon Sinek 4:59 Yeah.

Eric Ryan 5:00 And nobody thought about these products as a form of self-expression, a form of, you know, decor, lifestyle-ing of your home. And this is back in, you know, 2000. I was working the business plan, and, like, home and garden TV was just taking off. Uh, MTV Rock the Crib. Like-

Simon Sinek 5:14 Yeah

Eric Ryan 5:14 ... so for the first time, IKEA was arriving in America. It was like the first time that people were really starting to think about their home as a form of self-expression. And the products just felt like so... You know, they were products that said, "Buy me," not, "Live with me."

Simon Sinek 5:26 Right.

Eric Ryan 5:26 And we wanted to create something that said, "Live with me." But the problem was when Adam and I started creating it, and we, you know, we create these, this beautiful packaging, and then we dug in. We're like, "Cleaning's, like, a really dirty industry." You pollute when you clean. You're asking us to use poison to make your home healthier. So we're like, "Great. If we're successful, we're gonna leave pretty little bottles of poison on everybody's countertop." So we had to solve another problem, which is, like, how do we make sure these products are non-toxic, you know, healthy for you, healthy for the planet?

Simon Sinek 5:53 Yeah. I mean, it's, it's very similar to what Jobs did, right, 'cause there was a, a gray box that was the early personal computer, and nobody wants a gray box in their living room, so they put it in the basement. And- You know, Jobs and his infinite genius says, "If I want this to become an integrated part of our lives, then if I make it pretty, you'll put it in the living room." And it's, it's a very similar mentality.

Eric Ryan 6:12 Yeah. I mean, it's product placement, right?

Simon Sinek 6:14 Product placement.

Eric Ryan 6:14 I think people forget, like, the, the importance of aesthetics and how it does contribute to functionality. It's why you just said pretty. Like, I always, like, I have a hard time when people look at something through just the vanity of, like, pretty. I'm like, "No, no, no." Like, you know, design always has a purpose.

Simon Sinek 6:28 I wanna know where the inspiration for Method came from, but then I also wanna know, like, the actual slog of making it happen. You said Howard Schultz, I'm the 1-800-Flowers guy, you know, they, they invested in the person, the people-

Eric Ryan 6:42 Yep

Simon Sinek 6:42 ... and your partner who they believed would run through a brick wall. Uh, and we'll get to the brick wall.

Eric Ryan 6:46 And by the way, neither of them invested in me.

Simon Sinek 6:48 Oh, they didn't?

Eric Ryan 6:48 [laughs] No.

Simon Sinek 6:49 They both, they both said no?

Eric Ryan 6:50 No. They both said... Actually, no, Mav- So Mavron, Howard Schultz's fund, they did invest, and we ended up going with Tim Koogle, who is another individual who believed in us. At the time, he was running Yahoo. He was employee number six. They're a CEO.

Simon Sinek 7:01 Okay.

Eric Ryan 7:02 But we ended up, uh, going with somebody else over, over them.

Simon Sinek 7:05 Oh, good. That's very interesting.

Eric Ryan 7:06 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 7:06 Can I ask why?

Eric Ryan 7:08 Interesting. They, their first term- So their first term sheet came in at a really low valuation, and when we said something about it, they doubled the valuation overnight, and it didn't feel like a great way to start off a marriage. It was like, you try to-

Simon Sinek 7:22 They tried to bull- they were bullshitting you out of the gate to see if you would take it.

Eric Ryan 7:25 Yeah. Yeah.

Simon Sinek 7:25 Oh, that's... Yeah.

Eric Ryan 7:26 Yeah. And it did, like... At the end of the day, like, these are people, like, they're gonna be your true partners.

Simon Sinek 7:31 Yeah.

Eric Ryan 7:31 And I just, I adored Tim and just thought the guy was just built of, like, incredible integrity.

Simon Sinek 7:36 Yeah.

Eric Ryan 7:36 And, you know, character mattered more than anything else.

Simon Sinek 7:39 Oh, this is such a great segue to a bigger conversation, which is how to choose a partner, right? And, like, I get this question all the time. I'm sure you get the same, which is the number of times I've had entrepreneurs who literally their investors are forcing them to make decisions that are bad for their companies, that they know are bad for their companies, and I've seen friends who've been fired from their own companies.

Eric Ryan 7:57 Oh, yeah.

Simon Sinek 7:57 You know?

Eric Ryan 7:59 Creating anything from scratch, it's an iterative process.

Simon Sinek 8:01 Yeah.

Eric Ryan 8:02 And it's not linear. And I think a lot of times too when you, you, you make decisions about partners, they're often very linear thinkers.

Simon Sinek 8:08 Mm-hmm.

Eric Ryan 8:09 And to your point of, like, you're gonna fight, there's gonna be tension because ultimately you're, you're gonna do something that is this iterative, you know, launch, learn, optimize, launch, learn, optimize. And to be able to kind of work through that, that process, you need somebody who fundamentally, you know, going back to believes in you but also has the flexibility to work through you-

Simon Sinek 8:27 Yeah

Eric Ryan 8:27 ... when things go really w- wrong, which they always do when you're creating something from scratch.

Simon Sinek 8:31 Every time.

Eric Ryan 8:31 I'm sure you've been there many times.

Simon Sinek 8:33 Many, many times.

Eric Ryan 8:34 [laughs] Like, it's the game.

Simon Sinek 8:35 The game.

Eric Ryan 8:36 And, um, when they're in the trenches with you, like, can you work through it together?

Simon Sinek 8:41 Yeah.

Eric Ryan 8:41 Or do they look to dismiss you because their ego gets bigger than yours?

Simon Sinek 8:45 Yeah. So

Simon Sinek 8:46 o- o- one of the reasons you're special, you're special to me, uh, uh, in the, and you're special in the entrepreneur world, there's many successful entrepreneurs, but they've done it once.

Eric Ryan 8:54 Mm.

Simon Sinek 8:55 And, you know, was it their genius or did they win the lottery? And some of them go around giving speeches equivalent to, "Let me tell you the numbers I picked on my lottery ticket and you, you too can win the lottery."

Eric Ryan 9:05 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 9:05 You know? Uh, and I have so much respect for the entrepreneur that does it a second, a third, a fourth time. Tell me how that happens because, you know, when you're young and hungry, it's a very different mentality than you've had your first... You know, you've sold your first business and you've got-

Eric Ryan 9:21 Yeah

Simon Sinek 9:21 ... you're rich, and now you have to do it again. The, the, the hunger isn't quite there the same way. Like, what did you learn about what you did the first time that you actually had to adapt for the second and third time that's made it still work?

Eric Ryan 9:34 Yeah. I mean, first of all, I was, like, going back to the journey of, like, why do this again? It's hard. It's really, really hard to start a company from scratch and try to scale it up. And after, so we sold Method to SC Johnson. For the first time in my life, I was like, I was a little grumpy, and I couldn't figure it out as I felt a little rudderless and grumpy. And yeah, we had fin- you know, we had financial foundation now. And like, it's kind of funny, it's like entrepreneurship's the one thing, like, when you exit it or you finish it, you get congratulated. Like, you don't get congratulated for, like, exiting your first marriage. Like, it is all about, in entrepreneurship, like, when you exit it, that's like the celebration. And I realized, like, so much of my identity since I was a kid was this idea of being an entrepreneur, and I was no longer an entrepreneur. Like, I wasn't scared of work. I was still at Method, but it was super comfortable. There was no risk anymore. And it wasn't until I decided to go do Olly and create my second brand, like, I snapped out of it. I was like, "All right, I'm back. Like, I'm a entrepreneur. I'm a founder again. A- again, yes, I'm scared." And it was... But I was also terrified, to your point. On the first one, I was like, "Am I... Did I just get lucky?" Which, like, there's always luck in a success story. Without it... That's why you can never have an ego. Like, luck always plays a role. So when I went to go start it again, a lot of it was this idea of like, okay, what... You know, trying to find a playbook. And I studied a lot of serial entrepreneurs like Richard Branson, um, and really understanding the ones who did it over and over again. There's gotta be some key lessons or principles or... Like you with like, I'd love to hear as you, each time you go to write a new book, like-

Simon Sinek 11:02 Yeah

Eric Ryan 11:02 ... there is sort of a playbook that you learn. And so I did, I was very conscious of like, okay, I want to take what worked, but more importantly, all the lessons I learned of what didn't work-

Simon Sinek 11:11 Yeah

Eric Ryan 11:11 ... and apply it again to, to Olly the second time around.

Simon Sinek 11:15 For example?

Eric Ryan 11:17 At the end of the day, it's about great people and great products and being a good steward of capital. If you can do those three things, your chances of getting lucky [laughs] enough to have a successful company matters. So for me, um, I mean, I got like some really geeky ways that I think about it, and so, okay, we'll geek out on branding. So I don't start with ideas, I start with categories or spaces. So I lo- like I was not passionate about cleaning. Like when I started Method, my mom was like, "Are you sure you really want to do this? Like I've never seen you make your own bed." And my nickname was Marvin from my roommates for Messy Marvin 'cause I like never did the dishes. I got the angriest email from a good friend of mine, still good friend, who was my roommate in Minneapolis, who's like, "You motherfucker." [laughs] He's like, "I never once saw you do the dishes, and now you have a successful dish soap." [laughs] Um, so it, I don't start from this place of passion

Simon Sinek 12:11 But this, this, but, but by the way, this is apocryphal. Like, 'cause the, the, the belief has always been the, the sacred cow is, you know, you have to have a passion for the thing that you're making.

Eric Ryan 12:19 Totally.

Simon Sinek 12:20 In your case-

Eric Ryan 12:21 No

Simon Sinek 12:21 ... I'm calling bullshit.

Eric Ryan 12:22 Not at all. I-

Simon Sinek 12:22 Okay

Eric Ryan 12:22 ... hate cleaning.

Simon Sinek 12:23 I love it.

Eric Ryan 12:24 Um, but what I did love was home decor and design.

Simon Sinek 12:27 Right.

Eric Ryan 12:27 And so I found a way to find my passion through Method, through design.

Simon Sinek 12:31 Okay, so there has to be a passion.

Eric Ryan 12:33 Yes. You, you find it. Same thing with Olly. Like, I never took vitamins. Welly, like I rarely bleed. So but what I do is I start with categories. So I, you know, I was literally looking at, you know, the, the sea of sameness of cleaning products in a grocery store, and that becomes like the clue of like dig here. Or in the case of Olly, I just started looking at that vitamin aisle and saw people like literally stressing out trying to choose something healthy for them. So that's a clue, like dig here, and then I break it down. I try to figure out, okay, what is like the big cultural shift this category missed? So in the case of Method, I, we realized like, all right, lifestyle of the home and sustainability. Um, with Olly was like millennials view health and wellness, um, through the lens of a lifestyle pursuit. Like, so this is when SoulCycle was taking off. So I was like, okay, what if we reimagine the vitamin as a lifestyle product? And at, to a certain extent, I'm a bit of a thief, so I steal between categories. So if you look a lot at what Method, I stole from like housewares. Like, I brought over like, you know, this idea of like vase, like making them look like little vases sitting on your countertop. But then I also stole from personal care, where I brought in like great fragrances, beautiful colors. Um, Olly I stole from the beauty aisle. Like, I tried to design something that would look at home in the beauty department a- and then bring that into the nutrition department, which was like a dog's breakfast of design before Olly arrived.

Simon Sinek 13:48 You know, the, the reason I find this so sophisticated as a thought is it, it directly answers the question why old brands or old categories miss, to your point, miss changes in, in society. So like, it's, it's embarrassing that Apple invented iTunes and not the music industry.

Eric Ryan 14:06 Right.

Simon Sinek 14:06 It's embarrassing that Netflix pioneered streaming and not the television and movies industries. It's embarrassing that Amazon invented the e-reader and not the publishing industry. It's because they're so fixated on their model that pulls in whatever money it pulls in, that they just have their heads down, that they're just missing that the world is changing around them because every single one of them could have adapted-

Eric Ryan 14:25 Yeah

Simon Sinek 14:25 ... but, but missed it. And here too, it's embarrassing that, you know, the, the traditional packaged goods companies, they could have done this. There wasn't like some earth-shattering innovation here. They just weren't looking.

Eric Ryan 14:38 That's right. I think that's why outsiders disrupt, 'cause once you're comfortable in your business model-

Simon Sinek 14:43 Yeah

Eric Ryan 14:43 ... and I think too, like,

Eric Ryan 14:46 you have to be, you have to be a bit naive.

Simon Sinek 14:49 Yeah.

Eric Ryan 14:49 Like, you have to be able to look at a category or a product or a brand, like, and not realize how hard it's gonna be. And it's like that beginner's eye of looking at a space through a fresh lens is so much easier than when you like, yeah, you just... I always tell people when they come join us at work, I'm like, "In the very beginning, make sure you get all of your ideas out to us while you've got fresh, a fresh perspective-

Simon Sinek 15:11 Yeah

Eric Ryan 15:11 ... before you know too much like the rest of us."

Simon Sinek 15:13 Yeah. Um, um, Orson Welles talks about this, which is he's applauded for his courage challenging the movie industry. He was very vocal. He says, "No, no, no, no. I had no courage. What I had was naivete. I asked for things I didn't know that I could get. They said that I was courageous to stand up to Hollywood. I was just asking for things I didn't know that they would say yes to." And there, there's something to be said for naivete. It's definitely been one of my, one of my superpowers, which is just s- stupid enough to think I can make the changes that I can.

Eric Ryan 15:45 Well, you also just ha- you, you have such a talent at getting to the kernel of the truth of something or simplifying it in a way that is just so po- and then representing it back in a way that is just so powerful.

Simon Sinek 15:57 Yeah.

Eric Ryan 15:57 Like from a branding model, like I just admire your work and your ability to do that.

Simon Sinek 16:01 Well, I, and I think people give me too much credit. You know, going back to the naivete, so you repeated what worked from business to business. The cr- you found the creative underpinnings that worked and repeated them. That's not my m- method. It hasn't worked that way. So when I wrote my first book, when I wrote Start With Why, it's kind of a funny little journey because nobody knew that I could write. I didn't know that I could write. The longest thing I ever wrote in my life-

Eric Ryan 16:25 Well, after hearing your audio here, I just doubt that anyway

Simon Sinek 16:27 ... the longest thing that I ever wrote was like 10 pages, 15. I think I, I had this like if there was a 10-page paper, I could write it in six. If it was a 30-page paper, I could write it in six. You know [laughs] what I mean? It's like I was really good at six pages. That was sort of like-

Eric Ryan 16:39 Yeah, that's your-

Simon Sinek 16:39 So for me to write like 15 pages, that was like real work. But I'd never written anything long form. I didn't do a thesis or anything like that. And so when I got my first book deal, I cleared my calendar. I was already doing the speaking thing, and I was like, emptied out my calendar as like, all right, I'm gonna have to write a book, and I was struggling. And then the few gigs that I had to say yes to 'cause I had to pay bills, I would bring my computer on the plane with me, and this was pre-internet on the plane and pre-plugs on the plane.

Eric Ryan 17:05 Ah.

Simon Sinek 17:05 And so I had a battery that would last-

Eric Ryan 17:06 That was the golden era.

Simon Sinek 17:07 Was it, though?

Eric Ryan 17:08 You could like actually just disappear on a flight.

Simon Sinek 17:09 So, so I would have a, you know, a battery on my laptop that would last, you know, if I was lucky, three or four hours, and I'd sit down, and I'd start writing, and my most productive times were on these flights.

Eric Ryan 17:18 Oh, yeah, right.

Simon Sinek 17:19 And so then I was... And it sort of dawned on me that this was the thing. I called Delta Airlines, and I got on the phone with the agent, was like, "Okay, here's what I need. I need to be in the sky for three and a half hours minimum. I don't care where I go. Um, I need a flight that has light loads so that my status," 'cause I flew so much for, for work, "my status will get me a free upgrade, so I can pay like a couple hundred bucks for a ticket and hopefully, you know, get an upgrade, and I don't care where I go." And the, the, the agent was amazing and helped me plot all these flights. I went to Orlando for the day. I went to, uh, Arizona for the day. I even flew from New York to Los Angeles and right back again. Like, I went for the da- I, and I would show up at the airport with my laptop under my arm and nothing else, and those were my p- most productive writing days. I'd wrote t- I wrote 2,500 words in a flight. Um, so that helped me write this book. Okay, flash forward, second book deal, Leaders Eat Last. Okay. I started booking flights to nowhere, you know, gonna repeat the whole system, and what I'd failed to recognize is that I'd been on the speaking circuit for so long that, like, getting on planes is like... It's exhausting. And I remember I booked my first flight for my first writing trip. I was going to the airport. I had my laptop. I was sitting in the back of a taxi, and I was... Literally, my heart was pounding, and I was having dread. Dread. And I told the taxi driver, "Turn around." And I turned the cab around and went back home and missed my flight. But the problem was, now how am I gonna write a book? And so each book that I've written, I've actually had to reinvent-

Eric Ryan 18:49 That is so-

Simon Sinek 18:49 ... the creative process that would work.

Eric Ryan 18:52 Right.

Simon Sinek 18:52 'Cause no, the system that worked for the prior book never worked for the next book.

Eric Ryan 18:56 But is there a common thread of, like, finding a state of flow, or is there what-

Simon Sinek 18:59 I mean, of course. I mean, cor- I mean, it, it, of course fi- finding a state of flow is always the thing, but, but... And I always will try the thing that worked before.

Eric Ryan 19:08 And it doesn't.

Simon Sinek 19:08 And it hadn't worked. And so I, I, I... And so this is where I learned the lesson of-

Eric Ryan 19:12 But what, what it's so fa- But why do you think that is? Like, why can't you replicate that creative-

Simon Sinek 19:16 I think-

Eric Ryan 19:16 You have a creative pro-

Simon Sinek 19:17 Well, this is why I find-

Eric Ryan 19:18 You have to reinvent your creative process.

Simon Sinek 19:19 This is why I think what you do is fascinating, which is your ability to repeat. Because I think that as you go through life and as, you know, you sort of learn things, you know, I'm not the person I was then that I am now, and each stage I'm a different person. I have matured differently.

Eric Ryan 19:36 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 19:36 I've learned new things. I have different tolerances. Like, I don't wanna be on a plane flying nowhere anymore, you know? Unless I have somewhere to go [laughs] I don't wanna be on a plane at all.

Eric Ryan 19:43 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 19:44 You know? So I have different tolerances. I think this is why a lot of company... This is going back to the original analogy.

Eric Ryan 19:50 Mm.

Simon Sinek 19:50 Which is why publishing missed the, the e-reader or why, you know, music industry missed iTunes, is because they were repeating... These executives who'd made their way up the ranks, been doing the same thing for 20 or 30 years, they're simply repeating what the- worked the first time.

Eric Ryan 20:04 Yep.

Simon Sinek 20:05 And so they're, they're unable to reinvent themselves or their categories.

Eric Ryan 20:10 Right. I find, I don't know about you, but I find, I think w- part of my creative process is kinda going back to that, don't, I don't start with ideas. I start with looking for the opportunity.

Simon Sinek 20:17 Which I love, by the way.

Eric Ryan 20:19 It's a-

Simon Sinek 20:19 I start with a space rather than ideas. So sophisticated.

Eric Ryan 20:22 'Cause I find, like, if it's hard, it's probably wrong. And so I open lots of little doors and windows, and then once I kinda find that little nugget, if it flows really fast and easy, then I know it's right.

Simon Sinek 20:34 Yeah.

Eric Ryan 20:34 And when I look back at my career, when something failed, it was the same pattern over and over of, like, it was really hard, and we kinda forced our way through it.

Simon Sinek 20:42 Can you give an example of one of your spectacular failures?

Eric Ryan 20:45 Oh, so we just launched this ba- So I've had this... I wanted to go after the pharmacy industry. And I think when you go shop those categories of NyQuil, Tylenol, like, it's just dated. It's confu- it's unnecessarily confusing. And I love... Like, part of my formula is kinda what you said before, but taking, like, an inner child approach to a category that takes itself too seriously.

Simon Sinek 21:05 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Eric Ryan 21:05 And therefore-

Simon Sinek 21:06 Which is most things.

Eric Ryan 21:07 Most. A- and then therefore overly complicates it as well.

Simon Sinek 21:09 Right.

Eric Ryan 21:10 And that's where I get kinda the greatest joy if I can break that down. And so we launched this, you know, big pharmacy OTC line, and my whole goal was, like, really simplify it, make it more delightful, and, um, the consumer didn't respond. They're just so on autopilot of, of their choices, but every part of it was hard. The design was so hard. Trying to create these child-resistant caps, but they were still beautiful and functional was hard. Getting the pharmaceutical vendors to work with us was... Like, every part of it was like moving water uphill. And in the end, like, it-

Simon Sinek 21:43 It didn't. It flat.

Eric Ryan 21:44 It was beyond flat. And, uh, I, I mean, I love our team, and we all gave it our best shot and worked so hard at it. Where I'm about to launch a new, new product, um, in June here, coming up pretty quickly. I, we were on vacation in Greece last summer. Within a couple days, like, I concepted the entire thing, took it back, talked to a couple partners, put it in front of Target, very high concept. They're like, "Great. We love it. Can we launch?" I know if I have a really good idea or if it's gonna win if it's so painfully obvious that it scares me.

Simon Sinek 22:13 Like, you can't believe that nobody else-

Eric Ryan 22:15 Cannot believe. And that's, like, with Method. I was like, "This is..." Like, you know, th- th- like, the, not only the world's first, but largest multinationals, like, dominate these categories. They have 150-year head start. This is before e-commerce, so barriers to entry were brutal getting into, you know, grocery stores and, and, and mass retailers. And th- the thing I struggled the most with is, like, this is so painfully obvious why, of all these companies with resources, back to your point before, have not done it. And so I created it... I, so I put it together as a concept. I gave it to the 20 smartest people I know, and I told them, "Go shoot holes in this. Tell me why this is gonna fail." And everybody came back with the same answer, like-

Simon Sinek 22:50 Oh

Eric Ryan 22:50 ... "The only reason is 'cause no one else has done it, so therefore it must be a bad idea."

Simon Sinek 22:54 Okay. New line of questioning.

Eric Ryan 22:55 Yes.

Simon Sinek 22:56 What is innovation? Every company says they're innovative, which clearly is bullshit.

Eric Ryan 23:00 It's creative thinking applied to business. It's a fancy word.

Simon Sinek 23:05 Creative thinking applied to business. Say more.

Eric Ryan 23:07 I think innovation is often used as a, like, a fancy word for just, like, thinking creatively.

Simon Sinek 23:13 Yeah, but why is... Why do companies think that adding product and features, or adding features and benefits is innovation, which you and I know it isn't?

Eric Ryan 23:20 'Cause innovation sounds... Like, as a word, it sounds like it's harder than it really needs to be, therefore you can charge more [laughs] to do it or take greater credit than what you really did.

Simon Sinek 23:36 So, so let me give you an example of what I think is innovation, and call bullshit if you think-

Eric Ryan 23:39 Yeah

Simon Sinek 23:39 ... it deserves it, right? So, like-

Eric Ryan 23:42 It's such a loaded word

Simon Sinek 23:42 ... so we, we often confuse innovation of adding a motor or a, a flat screen to something. Look how innovative it is. I'm like, you just got rid of the switches and the dials and made it a screen. Like, that's not innovative.

Eric Ryan 23:55 Yep.

Simon Sinek 23:55 So for example, uh, the, the, there used to be a time when you and I, if we can remember this, where they had a screen in the conference room, and there's a little string hanging from the ceiling, and you pulled on the string and the s- screen came down.

Eric Ryan 24:07 Yep.

Simon Sinek 24:07 And when you pulled on the string again, the screen went up. And somebody decided, in their infinite wisdom, to put a motor in. And I don't remember a conference room where that motor ever worked. It was always broken down-

Eric Ryan 24:17 Oh, right

Simon Sinek 24:17 ... or broken up.

Eric Ryan 24:18 [laughs] It's-

Simon Sinek 24:19 Right?

Eric Ryan 24:19 Or halfway.

Simon Sinek 24:20 Or halfway. And And, like, there was no need to put a motor in. It wasn't broken. Now, if it's a home and it's an aesthetic thing, you don't want a string hanging from the ceiling, add the motor, add the button instead of a light switch. Love it.

Eric Ryan 24:32 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 24:33 Right? But in an office, it literally solved no problems.

Eric Ryan 24:36 Yep.

Simon Sinek 24:37 Right?

Eric Ryan 24:38 In fact, took longer than just grabbing that handle-

Simon Sinek 24:39 Exactly

Eric Ryan 24:39 ... and pulling it down.

Simon Sinek 24:40 And, and most of the time was broken anyway. And I always tell people, "If you wanna see innovation, go to Bed Bath & Beyond," when it was a thing, "and go to a department store and go to the toaster aisle." And they have all the toasters out for you to see, and just go down the toaster aisle and push up on the buttons, and you'll see only about 30% of the toasters do the buttons actually go up. That's innovation, that somebody figured out how to help you get your toast out of the toaster that you don't have to stick a knife in the toaster, and most toasters don't do that.

Eric Ryan 25:11 I think you're saying, too, innovation should be making-

Simon Sinek 25:13 It solved a problem

Eric Ryan 25:14 ... things easier, but often innovation just makes things harder.

Simon Sinek 25:17 I think the f- I think fake innovation. Like, innovation in cars, quote-unquote, putting flat screens on everything. So you're following the GPS and a phone call comes in, and now you lose the GPS 'cause the damn... Like, the whole screen disappears, or you have to completely get rid of the GPS to turn the air conditioning on.

Eric Ryan 25:32 Right.

Simon Sinek 25:32 Like, what was wrong with switches and dials and knobs? Nothing. They worked every single time. And by the way, I want the volume between five and six, but if you gave me a dial, I could get it. But-

Eric Ryan 25:41 Mm

Simon Sinek 25:41 ... on the buttons, I can't get it. Anyway, I'm sorry. I'm just, I'm angry at [laughs] the world.

Eric Ryan 25:46 No, 'cause I think it goes back to the idea-

Simon Sinek 25:47 They've ruined-

Eric Ryan 25:47 ... of, like, i- it's often overthinking and, and a- again, it's such a loaded word of like, "Oh, we gotta, we gotta really split atoms here."

Simon Sinek 25:55 It's technology for technology's sake.

Eric Ryan 25:56 For sure. And I think, I think a lot about soft innovation, and it's like what we did with, like, with Method. Like, just creating a product that worked just as well as a conventional cleaner but was non-toxic wasn't hard. It just took m- a, it took more care to wanna solve that problem.

Simon Sinek 26:14 To be able to solve.

Eric Ryan 26:14 Or a bottle that, like, looked beautiful out.

Simon Sinek 26:16 So let's think about that for a second. The innovation, the innovation, the problem that you were solving was recognizing that our homes are our sanctuaries.

Eric Ryan 26:25 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 26:25 We choose furniture to look nice. We choose art to look nice. We even choose large appliances to look nice, right? S- There, there are beautifully designed mixers. You know, KitchenAids are b- these magical, beautiful pieces of-

Eric Ryan 26:36 Yep

Simon Sinek 26:36 ... industrial design, and they come in, you know, 30 different colors because you choose one that aesthetically you like that bright red mixer.

Eric Ryan 26:44 Becomes a form of self-expression.

Simon Sinek 26:45 Becomes a form of self-expression. But we have no choice for the soap dispenser, the dish liquid ex- dispenser. Go down the list.

Eric Ryan 26:53 Yep.

Simon Sinek 26:53 And you simply, to your point, the innovation was everything out-

Eric Ryan 26:58 Yeah

Simon Sinek 26:58 ... matters. If it's in a cupboard, who cares? But everything out matters, at least that's where it starts.

Eric Ryan 27:02 That's right. And then when I-

Simon Sinek 27:03 Love that

Eric Ryan 27:04 ... when I really try to push harder innovation, so I think probably the proudest thing I've ever created at Method, we did a 10X concentrated laundry detergent. I don't know if you ever saw it. So well concentrated that we were able to get rid of the cap altogether and just do a premeasured pump, and it was, like, this cone shape. So it was, like, the size of a shampoo bottle.

Simon Sinek 27:21 I do remember it.

Eric Ryan 27:22 Eh? You do, you do, like, 30 loads of laundry out of something the size of a shampoo bottle.

Simon Sinek 27:26 Yeah.

Eric Ryan 27:27 And it was so clean. You just did it. Like, you do s- two squirts, three squirts. It was, like, I think the greatest innovation of all time-

Simon Sinek 27:33 Yeah

Eric Ryan 27:33 ... in laundry, and it was so hard to get people to buy it. Where then what, we went back to, like-

Simon Sinek 27:39 Why?

Eric Ryan 27:39 ... a traditional 3X.

Simon Sinek 27:40 Right.

Eric Ryan 27:41 Because it was overcoming the hurdle of, like, "Oh, it's so little laundry detergent. Is it really gonna work?"

Simon Sinek 27:47 Ah, they didn't believe, they didn't believe the promise that we'd been conditioned that a whole cup-

Eric Ryan 27:51 Gotta have a jug

Simon Sinek 27:51 ... of detergent-

Eric Ryan 27:52 More is more

Simon Sinek 27:53 ... is what gets your clothes clean. So one tiny little pump clearly couldn't work.

Eric Ryan 27:57 So it went back to a three, so 3X con- We actually moved the entire laundry industry to shrink down because of us, 'cause then everybody put pressure on them. But then we went back to just a 3X, which was a, you know, much larger, and did some really beautiful fragrances, and it, it way outsold our incredibly innovative...

Simon Sinek 28:14 Th- this speaks so beautifully to understanding people's psychology, right? Do, do you know the old thing about, um, like, Duncan Hines and Betty Crocker, like the, the cake mix? Do you know this story of this?

Eric Ryan 28:23 Oh, where you, like, they added the egg back in?

Simon Sinek 28:24 Right, right.

Eric Ryan 28:25 Yes.

Simon Sinek 28:25 So, so when the original... So cake, I don't know if it was in the '40s or the '50s, when the cake mix was first invented, literally you just added water to the mix and you could make a cake. And nobody bought it because they were ashamed. They were embarrassed that they didn't make the cake.

Eric Ryan 28:37 Yep.

Simon Sinek 28:38 And so they changed the formula that you, you, you had to add the oil and the egg. And so people were making cakes all because now they could say, "I baked a cake." Because by adding an egg and mixing it up and adding the oil, "I made the cake."

Eric Ryan 28:50 It goes, I think it's like-

Simon Sinek 28:51 It's genius.

Eric Ryan 28:52 It's like that law of, like-

Simon Sinek 28:52 It, it's not... You, so you s- you wanna make it easy, just not too easy.

Eric Ryan 28:55 Totally. It, but it's, like, one iteration. Like, whenever you iterate two off of something, like, the innovation often fails. It's like you put one, you know, the... I think what, if you see really what works for us, is you take something that is, is very familiar and you put one spin on it that gives a little novelty but too much. It's like that intersection of familiar and novel.

Simon Sinek 29:16 Yeah.

Eric Ryan 29:16 Or the, I think the intersection of altruism and narcissism. So with the cake mix, like, the narcissism of, like, "This was really easy," but you still want the altruism of, like, "I baked-"

Simon Sinek 29:24 "I baked a cake."

Eric Ryan 29:25 "... I baked a cake. I feel like a great mom."

Simon Sinek 29:27 Yeah. Okay, change, let's change

Simon Sinek 29:29 the subject here. Tell me something you've worked on in your career, whether it was commercially successful or not, I don't care, that if every project went like this one, you'd be the happiest person alive.

Eric Ryan 29:38 Hmm. I think the thing I'm probably most famous for, that could be on my gravestone someday, is the teardrop hand wash.

Simon Sinek 29:43 Mm-hmm.

Eric Ryan 29:44 That was... We, that was, like, our third product. It was actually Target's idea. They came to us and said, "We think there's an opportunity." 'Cause they were all, like, the hand washes were s- like, really, really bad design. Di- you know, think Dial's soft soap. And, um, so I saw this. It was in Vogue Living Australia. Yes, I'm the type of guy who would read Vogue Living Australia. And it was this photo shoot of this bathroom, and it had this beautiful teardrop vase with a flower in it sitting on it. And we were working with Karim Rashid, who's, like, an, you know, incredibly famous, talented designer, and it, this was his second product he was designing for us, and he kept coming up with these, like, ridiculously el- very elaborate, over-the-top designs. And I knew I wanted to do this, this, this design, but I couldn't. I had to make it his idea. And, uh, [laughs] so I said-- sitting with him in a cafe, and I was just like, "What about a tear-- like, do, do..." And he finally got annoyed with the project. He like sketches a teardrop, gives it to me. We go back. I come back the next day, get the little, the model. He's like, "All right, Karim, like press calls you, this is your top 10 of favorite items." Like, "No." It's like he did not like it at all. [laughs] It went on to be his most produced item of all time, but the second that landed on shelf, it just flew, and it's just been like an icon ever since. We've done it in ocean plastic. We've done different design collaborations on it. That's like my favorite project, and it's-- it does what I think for me is the ultimate form of success, is creating an everlasting gobstopper, meaning the product is iconic, but yet you can constantly refresh it, and every time you do, it reinforces back to the icon.

Simon Sinek 31:22 And of all the amazing success you've had, the most am- all these incredible products that you've developed and invented, what specifically was it about the teardrop hand wash that stands out from all the others that you wanna talk about it now?

Eric Ryan 31:35 I think it was convincing this incredibly powerful, intimidating designer at the top of his game [laughs] to do something he didn't wanna do because I believed in it.

Simon Sinek 31:46 Mm.

Eric Ryan 31:47 And doing it in a way where he's very, Karim's very proud of it.

Simon Sinek 31:50 Mm.

Eric Ryan 31:51 Um, I think k- overcoming that creative process with somebody who I was humbled to be around-

Simon Sinek 31:57 Mm

Eric Ryan 31:57 ... I think was one of my... Yeah, and I don't, I don't know if Method would've been as successful if we didn't do that teardrop.

Simon Sinek 32:05 What-- Tell me an

Simon Sinek 32:06 early specific childhood memory, something I can relive with you.

Eric Ryan 32:09 All right. It's Detroit in the '70s. You know, I love-- My favorite thing to do is building ice rinks in the backyard.

Simon Sinek 32:15 Ice rinks?

Eric Ryan 32:16 Yeah. So I'd build these rinks every year, and one-

Simon Sinek 32:19 What'd you, like take a hose in the backyard kinda thing?

Eric Ryan 32:20 Yeah. So you build out, like you put out these two by fours. You fill it with plastic, and I got the idea to fill it with blue dye. And the next-- It had snowed that night, so in the morning, my parents look outside, and it was like a cartoon where all the fresh white snow, but it had fallen like while it was freezing, and this like incredibly beautiful blue slab of ice, this radiating blue ice [laughs] in the middle of the backyard. My parents are like... I think this goes back to the aesthetic [laughs] of like I couldn't just create an ice rink. I had to create the most beautiful ice rink [laughs] I could possibly do with like two by fours, water, plastic, and some coloring, food dye.

Simon Sinek 33:04 And of all the amazing things you did in your happy childhood, what was it about this, making this blue ice rink, that stands out from everything else?

Eric Ryan 33:11 I think it was just like, it was just so satisfying to look at it, [laughs] like just visually. I think it sa- like if you look at everything I do, there's a sensory element to it.

Simon Sinek 33:21 Yeah.

Eric Ryan 33:21 Like I try to design sensory experience. Even a vitamin, like the taste of it, the touch of it, the-

Simon Sinek 33:26 Yeah

Eric Ryan 33:26 ... the way the jar opens. I think it's... And it's like the sport of sailing is like my passion too, and it's something about like when there's a real sensory element to it in both its visual appearance, its feel, it's like it creates an experience. And that, that stupid little ice rink in the backyard felt like an experience. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 33:46 I mean, there seems to be like the desire to bring joy to every thing you do, you know? And like you talked about it before.

Eric Ryan 33:52 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 33:52 Like, you know, you talked about the responsibility of a leader and entrepreneur is to inspire people around you to wanna come and do this with you, you know, which is not how most people would de- define entr- entrepreneur. From the very beginning, you said the definition of an entrepreneur is somebody who inspires others, you know?

Eric Ryan 34:05 Right.

Simon Sinek 34:06 So Karim, like, uh, um, uh, you know, there was an inspiration component there as well, you know, where you sort of inspired him to, to, to see something that couldn't be seen or do something that hadn't been done, um, and super simple and super s- beautiful and elegant. And it seems like there's this, this desire to inspire, this desire to just bring a little bit of happiness and joy and make people smile in everything you do. And it goes to what you said, which is if it, if it flows, it's right, and if it's too difficult, you're not smiling doing it, you know? And it seems like there's the, there's the just, the bringing of joy to the world in the people you c- come in contact with, the products you make, the way you wanna be inspired yourself by your own ideas. It's like if it's joyful, it's good. If it's not joyful, don't do it.

Eric Ryan 34:51 Yeah. I bring, I bring like an, an inner child approach-

Simon Sinek 34:54 Yeah

Eric Ryan 34:54 ... to these categories that take themselves so seriously.

Simon Sinek 34:56 Yeah. There is. There's a, there's a-

Eric Ryan 34:57 That's the formula

Simon Sinek 34:58 ... it's childlike but not childish. It's childlike wonder. That's what it is.

Eric Ryan 35:02 That's right.

Simon Sinek 35:02 It's childlike wonder. You bring childlike wonder to the things that you do, and your success always, the benefit that we get from your products is childlike wonder.

Eric Ryan 35:11 That's right.

Simon Sinek 35:11 It makes us smile.

Eric Ryan 35:12 That's right.

Simon Sinek 35:13 It's, it's really pretty simple.

Eric Ryan 35:15 Wait till you see the candy brain I'm launching. I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be really, really W- really Willy Wonka.

Simon Sinek 35:20 Eric, you make me smile. Thank you so much. I could talk to you forever. I think we take stuff too seriously, you know? And-

Eric Ryan 35:28 Especially now

Simon Sinek 35:29 ... especially now. And, and there's-- We've forgotten that underlying joy, underlying childlike wonder, um, and, you know, even when we're starting businesses, we, we take ourselves too seriously. We take the products too seriously. We take the things... And at the end of the day, most products that we make aren't saving lives. Most of us aren't looking for the cure for cancer, you know? Um, so if we can bring a little bit of childlike joy to the world, you know, 'cause we lose it as we get older, right? We had it when we were young.

Eric Ryan 35:56 That's right.

Simon Sinek 35:56 We find wonder in everything. We find wonder in making a blue ice rink, and at some point, we realize that that's silly. Just make an ice rink an ice rink. And you wanna go back to making all the ice rinks blue. And we're better off because of it.

Eric Ryan 36:09 Thank you for having me.

Simon Sinek 36:10 Love.

Eric Ryan 36:11 It's been an absolute pleasure.

Simon Sinek 36:11 Love. If you enjoyed this podcast and would like to hear more, please subscribe wherever you like to listen to podcasts. And if you'd like even more optimism, check out my website, simonsinek.com, for classes, videos, and more. Until then, take care of yourself. Take care of each other.