Love Is Not Enough with couples therapist Shawn McBride | A Bit of Optimism

Simon Sinek 0:00 Infidelity

Shawn McBride 0:01 Yes

Simon Sinek 0:01 How do you help couples-

Shawn McBride 0:03 Yes

Simon Sinek 0:03 ... overcome the trauma of trusting someone, and how do they repair it?

Shawn McBride 0:09 It's very hard, Simon. The number one reason that men cheat is not because of sex. What they're really seeking is admiration. What they're really seeking is respect. Sex becomes this secondary thing that happens, but they get connected to the woman because she admires him, she honors him. Same thing with a woman. When a woman cheat, what happened? It started with a conversation, 'cause most women want two hours of conversation every day with their man, 14 hours of conversation a week. If they're starving for conversation, she finds it elsewhere. Again-

Simon Sinek 0:46 Mm

Shawn McBride 0:46 ... I'm not saying it's right.

Simon Sinek 0:48 Mm.

Shawn McBride 0:48 I'm saying here's what I've discovered-

Simon Sinek 0:51 Mm

Shawn McBride 0:51 ... with thousands of people why some people make that choice. And, and-

Simon Sinek 0:55 Yeah

Shawn McBride 0:55 ... recovering from it is very hard. They're trying to get very basic needs met-

Simon Sinek 1:02 Mm-hmm

Shawn McBride 1:02 ... outside of their relationship because the relationship is not working. [whimsical music]

Simon Sinek 1:11 I am so glad that you joined me today. Um, I found you on Instagram. [laughs]

Shawn McBride 1:17 Yes, sir.

Simon Sinek 1:18 You know? And you were... I mean, there's no better way to put it, you were preaching.

Shawn McBride 1:24 Yes.

Simon Sinek 1:25 Uh, you were preaching-

Shawn McBride 1:26 I'm a former pastor. Former pastor

Simon Sinek 1:27 ... W- well, it definitely shows up. Uh-

Shawn McBride 1:30 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 1:31 Y- you, you were preaching, um, the most brilliant metaphor to explain why some couples cannot communicate well.

Shawn McBride 1:42 Yes.

Simon Sinek 1:42 And your metaphor was that somebody is drowning-

Shawn McBride 1:45 Yes. Yes

Simon Sinek 1:46 ... and you're throwing facts at them.

Shawn McBride 1:50 Yes. Yes. The reason that conflict is not resolved is because nobody's being validated. Imagine your partner is drowning in a swimming pool, and you start spitting facts. "Well, you knew that there was no lifeguard on duty." Fact. "You knew you couldn't swim in eight feet." Fact. "Didn't you see the sign on the gate that said no swimming after 5:00? It's 7:00." Fact. But they drowning. And sometimes in conflict, we are focusing on facts rather than my partner's drowning in anger, my partner's drowning in sadness, my partner's drowning in fear. We have to do something about that.

Simon Sinek 2:31 You know, "I'm drowning." "Well, it, there's a sign that says-

Shawn McBride 2:34 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 2:35 "... no swimming."

Shawn McBride 2:35 "No swimming on the door."

Simon Sinek 2:36 "I'm drowning."

Shawn McBride 2:37 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 2:37 "It says no lifeguard."

Shawn McBride 2:39 Yeah. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 2:41 And, and, and, and the amount of times that we are in relationships where somebody says, "I'm in pain, I'm hurt, I'm sad," and we throw facts at them.

Shawn McBride 2:50 That's it. Yep.

Simon Sinek 2:52 And it doesn't work. And, and the way you captured-

Shawn McBride 2:56 Mm

Simon Sinek 2:56 ... this dynamic made so much sense.

Shawn McBride 3:00 Good.

Simon Sinek 3:00 Your abili- And I've watched many of your videos since. I'm a-

Shawn McBride 3:03 Good

Simon Sinek 3:03 ... I count me as a huge fan.

Shawn McBride 3:05 Good.

Simon Sinek 3:05 Your ability to capture the discomfort and speed bumps of a relationship in a way that the rest of us can understand-

Shawn McBride 3:17 Yes

Simon Sinek 3:17 ... in my opinion, is better than anyone I've ever heard, ever.

Shawn McBride 3:20 Oh, wow. I'm honored. The check's in the mail. What's the address? The check's in the mail.

Simon Sinek 3:24 [laughs]

Shawn McBride 3:24 Thank you.

Simon Sinek 3:25 So let's take a step back.

Shawn McBride 3:27 Yes.

Simon Sinek 3:27 Right?

Shawn McBride 3:27 Yes.

Simon Sinek 3:28 You're not like the average counselor.

Shawn McBride 3:30 No, sir. No, sir.

Simon Sinek 3:31 Where-

Shawn McBride 3:31 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 3:31 ... let's be honest, the average counselor will be like, "So what do you think?"

Shawn McBride 3:36 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 3:36 "What do y- and now-"

Shawn McBride 3:37 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 3:37 "... would you like to respond-"

Shawn McBride 3:38 Yeah

Simon Sinek 3:38 ... to what, what your partner just said?"

Shawn McBride 3:40 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 3:40 You are, um, unabashedly opinionated. [laughs]

Shawn McBride 3:44 That's it. Let's get to it. Let's get to it. [laughs] Let's fix this right now.

Simon Sinek 3:49 You know?

Shawn McBride 3:49 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 3:51 What... So obviously c- couples come to you because things aren't working.

Shawn McBride 3:55 Yes.

Simon Sinek 3:55 I have a few questions. What are s- the more common things that people come to you for-

Shawn McBride 4:00 Yes

Simon Sinek 4:00 ... that, that are j- it's just a rec- a recurring?

Shawn McBride 4:03 Yes. The number one iss- I give you one, two, and three. "Shawn, how do we communicate better?"

Simon Sinek 4:09 Mm-hmm.

Shawn McBride 4:09 Number two, "Shawn, how do we resolve conflict?" Number three, "Shawn, how do we recover from infidelity, from cheating?" Those are the-

Simon Sinek 4:18 Mm

Shawn McBride 4:19 ... top three issues that I deal with every single week in my private counseling office.

Simon Sinek 4:24 So let's, let's, let's unpackage it.

Shawn McBride 4:26 Yep.

Simon Sinek 4:26 Are there some basic steps on how we can learn to communicate better?

Shawn McBride 4:31 So number one, it starts with listening, okay? I often tell people-

Simon Sinek 4:37 Mm-hmm

Shawn McBride 4:38 ... uh, uh, our creator gave us two ears and one mouth for a reason, right? Why do we have-

Simon Sinek 4:43 Right

Shawn McBride 4:43 ... two ears and one mouth? Because we should listen more than we speak. So effective communication starts with listening, but it doesn't stop with listening. Once you listen with your ears, you have to be sure that you're hearing what your partner's communicating. I, I illustrated, uh, my wife and I, uh, have raised five children. They're all adults now, and when they were little, we used to say, "Hey, clean your room. Hey, son, go clean your room. Hey, daughter, clean your room." They listened because they have ears, but when you go check the room, you see that it's not clean, that means that you didn't hear me, okay? [laughs] You listened with your ears, but you didn't hear me. So part of-

Simon Sinek 5:27 Right

Shawn McBride 5:27 ... effective communication is being sure that you're not just listening to your partner, but do you hear what they're saying?

Simon Sinek 5:34 Yep.

Shawn McBride 5:34 Hearing leads to understanding, and understanding leads to resolving the conflict.

Simon Sinek 5:43 But most people, especially men-

Shawn McBride 5:46 Yes

Simon Sinek 5:46 ... think they are great listeners-

Shawn McBride 5:49 Right. Right

Simon Sinek 5:49 ... because they heard the words spoken.

Shawn McBride 5:52 Yes.

Simon Sinek 5:52 They are pretty sure they understand the meaning. They pretty sure they heard.

Shawn McBride 5:57 Yes.

Simon Sinek 5:58 They can recite back what they heard. So where are people failing-

Shawn McBride 6:04 Yes

Simon Sinek 6:05 ... to listen? Like, what, what is the-

Shawn McBride 6:06 Yeah. So here's the gap, Simon. Great question. Um, typically when a couple's trying to communicate and resolve something, number one, there is minimization. One or, one or the other will minimize how a person feels or what that person is saying. "Oh, well, it's not that big of a deal," or, "How, how could you get- be upset about that?" Or, "That really doesn't make sense." So they minimize their partner's feelings.

Simon Sinek 6:35 Mm.

Shawn McBride 6:36 And feelings are important.

Simon Sinek 6:37 Mm.

Shawn McBride 6:37 Emotions are very important, and so you can't just minimize what a person says-

Simon Sinek 6:43 Mm

Shawn McBride 6:43 ... or how a person feels. The second thing that happens is there's a lot of dismissing that's going on. When y- you're, you're talking to me and I dismiss it as, "Oh, you're just being overly sensitive," or, "Oh, you just had a bad day." No. What I feel is what I feel. My feelings matter. So if there's minimization, if there's dismissiveness, and here's the big one. In conversation, sometimes your partner's not being validated. Their feelings-

Simon Sinek 7:13 Mm-hmm

Shawn McBride 7:13 ... are not being validated. Validation is very simple. You're making valid what feeling your partner has. If they're angry-

Simon Sinek 7:22 Mm-hmm

Shawn McBride 7:22 ... you're validating that anger. If they're sad, you're validating the sadness. Validation is not agreement. It doesn't mean, "Okay, I agree with everything you're saying," but I can make-

Simon Sinek 7:33 Mm

Shawn McBride 7:33 ... valid in this moment how you feel, your anger, your sadness, your fear, your shame, whatever you're feeling. So dismissiveness, minimizing your partner, and not validating your partner leads to more chaos and confusion.

Simon Sinek 7:47 Oh, I'm feeling guilty as you're saying it-

Shawn McBride 7:49 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 7:49 ... because I, I'm literally thinking of conversations I've had where, you know, my partner has told me their feelings-

Shawn McBride 7:56 Yes

Simon Sinek 7:56 ... and I'm proud I wasn't dismissive.

Shawn McBride 7:57 Yes.

Simon Sinek 7:58 I absolutely validated.

Shawn McBride 7:59 Yes.

Simon Sinek 8:00 And unfortunately, I did not pass the first test where I absolutely-

Shawn McBride 8:04 Minimize

Simon Sinek 8:04 ... have said, "That's so not a big deal."

Shawn McBride 8:06 Yes. Yeah.

Simon Sinek 8:07 You know? Like, that's like-

Shawn McBride 8:08 To you

Simon Sinek 8:09 ... that's the definition-

Shawn McBride 8:09 To you it's not a big deal.

Simon Sinek 8:11 Yeah.

Shawn McBride 8:11 But that's-

Simon Sinek 8:12 Yeah

Shawn McBride 8:12 ... but that's like saying to your partner who's drowning in the pool-

Simon Sinek 8:17 Yeah

Shawn McBride 8:17 ... "It's no big deal. People drown all the time." [laughs] You know, "People fall in the pool all the time," as they're drowning, right?

Simon Sinek 8:24 Mm-hmm.

Shawn McBride 8:25 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 8:25 Right.

Shawn McBride 8:26 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 8:27 Ugh. Ugh, okay.

Shawn McBride 8:28 Yes.

Simon Sinek 8:29 All right, let's go to number two. Con- conflict.

Shawn McBride 8:31 Con- resolving conflict. So there's typically four responses to conflict in a relationship. Fight, flight, freeze, fawn. So in the conflict-

Simon Sinek 8:41 Mm

Shawn McBride 8:41 ... someone is the fighter. They're gonna scream, they're gonna yell, they're gonna argue, they're gonna fuss, they're gonna cuss, 'cause they wanna solve the conflict. So we call that a fighter.

Simon Sinek 8:49 Mm-hmm.

Shawn McBride 8:50 Then there's a flighter, someone that flees. Conflict arises, they flee, they run. There's a song on the radio, I forget the, uh, musician, but it says, "She's a runner, she's a track star. She's gonna run away when it gets hard," right? So you got your fighter-

Simon Sinek 9:06 Mm. Mm

Shawn McBride 9:06 ... you got the flighter. Then you have the freezer. This person completely shuts down, and the shutdown may be-

Simon Sinek 9:13 Yeah

Shawn McBride 9:13 ... for an hour, it may be for a day, it may be for multiple days. So they completely freeze-

Simon Sinek 9:19 Yeah

Shawn McBride 9:19 ... and it takes them a while to unthaw. And then there's the fourth person that's a fawn. A fawn is typically a people pleaser. They go along-

Simon Sinek 9:29 Mm

Shawn McBride 9:29 ... to get along. Typically, people who fawn have some kind of abuse in their childhood, and so to not get beat, to not get whipped, to not get cussed out, they just fawn. And so we bring, Simon, that baggage into relationships. So, so we never learn how to deal with fight, flight, freeze, fawn, and we bring it into a relationship, and now you got two people that don't have any skills in communication, in resolving conflict.

Simon Sinek 9:59 Mm-hmm.

Shawn McBride 10:00 Two people-

Simon Sinek 10:01 Mm

Shawn McBride 10:01 ... that don't have any tools, [laughs] okay? They, they, they get married, they start dating, they get engaged, and they just don't know what to do to resolve the conflict.

Simon Sinek 10:12 Mm.

Shawn McBride 10:12 And that's where I come in.

Simon Sinek 10:13 Mm. So, okay, I've experienced all of those-

Shawn McBride 10:18 Yes

Simon Sinek 10:18 ... and I've been at least a couple of them-

Shawn McBride 10:21 Yes

Simon Sinek 10:21 ... depending on the situation. Uh, uh, n- now walk me through when in the heat of an argument-

Shawn McBride 10:28 Yes

Simon Sinek 10:28 ... where anger and irrational thoughts are running through me-

Shawn McBride 10:33 Yes

Simon Sinek 10:33 ... how do I assess and what skills do I call upon to at least take the first step-

Shawn McBride 10:37 Yeah

Simon Sinek 10:37 ... for resolution?

Shawn McBride 10:37 So I use this little analogy called SMART Love, S-M-A-R-T. In resolving conflict-

Simon Sinek 10:44 Mm-hmm

Shawn McBride 10:44 ... in having better communication, the S in SMART Love stands for self-awareness. It is up to you-

Simon Sinek 10:52 Mm

Shawn McBride 10:52 ... it is up to me, it is up to your partner, you have to be self-aware of what you are feeling.

Simon Sinek 11:00 Mm-hmm.

Shawn McBride 11:01 You have to be self-aware-

Simon Sinek 11:03 Mm

Shawn McBride 11:03 ... of your emotions. In this moment, am I angry? In this moment as, am I sad? People go into conflict and people try to communicate, and they are clueless into what they are really feeling. And, and I find this with a lot of men, that men, uh, a lot of times can't describe and can't break down. A guy will come to me for counseling. "Hey, man, what are you feeling?" "I don't know. I just feel." [laughs] You know? "What, what, well, just describe it. Like, like, break it down." "I just, I just feel something." [laughs] And so I have to help particularly men work through feelings of anger, feelings of sadness or disappointment, and there are many ways you can describe these feelings, or feelings of shame or feelings of fear, right?

Simon Sinek 11:49 Mm.

Shawn McBride 11:49 So you have to have, first of all, a self-awareness. "What am I feeling in this moment?" Because if you, if you don't know what you're feeling in this moment, it's gonna be hard to communicate to your partner. Remember, we're trying to get understanding. The M in SMART Love, Simon, is managing- ... whatever that emotion is. So if I'm angry, I gotta manage that. That is not the responsibility of my wife or my partner. If I'm sad, I gotta own that. I have to manage that and not blame my partner for my sadness. If I'm afraid, that belongs to me.

Simon Sinek 12:31 Mm.

Shawn McBride 12:31 That fear is mine.

Simon Sinek 12:33 Mm.

Shawn McBride 12:33 I gotta be able to manage that. And I think if people can get just those first two, let me be self-aware of what I'm feeling, and then let me manage that, typically we can cool things down a little bit in the midst of that conflict.

Simon Sinek 12:49 So I'm allowed to be angry, but I'm not allowed to yell in my house.

Shawn McBride 12:52 Absolutely not.

Simon Sinek 12:53 That's managing anger.

Shawn McBride 12:53 That's managing anger.

Simon Sinek 12:54 Right.

Shawn McBride 12:54 Because, and I even, in my own marriage, my, my wife was verbally abused up to the age of 17. We've been married, Simon, 30 years, and so early on in my marriage, I was making the big mistake of yelling and raising my voice and saying this and saying that, and my wife couldn't handle that. Now, I learned that behavior from my own mother, because as a little boy-

Simon Sinek 13:19 Mm

Shawn McBride 13:19 ... in my home, I watched how my mother handled conflict. My mother was a yeller, my mother was a screamer, so she was the fighter, and my mother was also the flyer. So she would fight and then she would run. My father was the freezer and the foner. And so we all learn how to communicate somewhere, for better or for worse, and typically it's in our childhood.

Simon Sinek 13:45 Hmm. Okay, so we got the, uh, we have the, we have the-

Shawn McBride 13:48 Self-aware

Simon Sinek 13:48 ... self-awareness-

Shawn McBride 13:49 Yep

Simon Sinek 13:49 ... we have the management. So l- what are the A-R-T?

Shawn McBride 13:51 So, so you got to acknowledge your partner's feelings, awareness of what your partner is feeling. That's the A. Uh, uh, I, I often talk about connecting before correcting, okay? Connect with your partner-

Simon Sinek 14:11 Mm

Shawn McBride 14:11 ... on an emotional level before you try to correct your p- partner on a rational level. H- having an awareness-

Simon Sinek 14:18 Right

Shawn McBride 14:19 ... what is my partner feeling?

Simon Sinek 14:22 Yeah.

Shawn McBride 14:22 What is my partner... Yeah.

Simon Sinek 14:23 That's, that's going back to the validation of effective communication as well.

Shawn McBride 14:25 There it is. There it is. And then the R is reading, R, reading your partner's emotions with sympathy and empathy, which is two totally different things. So back to the pool analogy. Sympathy says, when I read my partner's emotions with sympathy, what that says is, "I care." You're in a pool, you're drowning. Sympathy say, "You know what? I care. Here's a life vest. Here's a life preserver." But Simon, empathy goes to a deeper level, because empathy doesn't just say like sympathy, "I care." Empathy says, "I feel what you feel, and I'm gonna prove it by diving in the pool. I'm gonna risk my own safety so that I can understand you at a level that I can connect with you." And you can't do that standing on the edge. You can't do that unless you get in the pool with the person.

Simon Sinek 15:27 What, what does that, what does that look like? What does that look like practically in the middle of a conflict?

Shawn McBride 15:30 Yes, in the middle of a conflict.

Simon Sinek 15:31 To, to, to be able to jump in the pool, to, to be able to jump in the pool with somebody.

Shawn McBride 15:34 Oh, yeah. To be able to validate that anger and say, "Boy, if I were in your shoes, now that I understand your an-

Simon Sinek 15:43 Oh, yeah

Shawn McBride 15:43 ... I would feel the same way. Oh my goodness-

Simon Sinek 15:47 There it is

Shawn McBride 15:47 ... you're disappointed. You're down. Oh my go- let me empathize with you. If the tables were turned, Simon, I would feel-

Simon Sinek 15:56 That's it. That's it

Shawn McBride 15:56 ... the same way." That's the empathy.

Simon Sinek 15:59 That's it. So you're not, you're not, you're not gaslighting-

Shawn McBride 16:00 Yeah

Simon Sinek 16:01 ... and making them feel crazy for feeling like they're drowning.

Shawn McBride 16:04 Yes.

Simon Sinek 16:04 You, you're saying, "If I were in your shoes, I would feel like I was drowning, too."

Shawn McBride 16:08 Absolutely. Because Simon, think about it. If you dive in the pool-

Simon Sinek 16:11 Yep

Shawn McBride 16:11 ... now you can see things from their vantage point.

Simon Sinek 16:16 Yeah, yep, yep. That's it.

Shawn McBride 16:16 You can't see that on the edge spitting facts, a- although the facts are true.

Simon Sinek 16:21 Yep.

Shawn McBride 16:22 You can't really understand it until you get into the pool and surround yourself with all the fear and the l- water in your lungs and all of that.

Simon Sinek 16:33 So good. And T?

Shawn McBride 16:35 Together we journey-

Simon Sinek 16:38 Oh

Shawn McBride 16:38 ... in the land of emotions. Together we journey in the land of emotions. We make a big deal about emotions. We make a big deal about understanding emotions. We celebrate emotions. We try to... See, see, Simon, intimacy is not just sex. Intimacy, where I come from, is into me I see.

Simon Sinek 17:01 [laughs]

Shawn McBride 17:01 And the way that you can really see into a person is when you understand their emotions. Simon, we've made emotions to be this bad thing that as a, as a little boy growing up, I was taught, "Stop being angry," or, "Stop crying," or, you know.

Simon Sinek 17:19 Yeah.

Shawn McBride 17:19 So I was taught to suppress my emotions. But as, and so I became a grown man, and I started to still suppress, thinking like, "This is not working." So through counseling and therapy, I had to realize and to learn it's okay to have emotion, it's okay to express emotion. It's okay-

Simon Sinek 17:39 Yeah

Shawn McBride 17:39 ... to work through emotion.

Simon Sinek 17:40 Yeah.

Shawn McBride 17:40 That's how you get closer with your partner.

Simon Sinek 17:43 Brilliant. You, I, I'm, I... So in your first, the first example, um, you know, I, I realize I'd done some of those things. In this particular example, I'm very proud that I'm thinking of a successful situation-

Shawn McBride 17:53 Okay

Simon Sinek 17:54 ... where my partner and I were fighting.

Shawn McBride 17:58 Yes.

Simon Sinek 17:59 And the fight looked like this. I told her everything I was doing right.

Shawn McBride 18:05 Ah.

Simon Sinek 18:05 And then I told her everything she was doing wrong.

Shawn McBride 18:07 Ah. Not good. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 18:09 And then she responded by saying everything she was doing right and everything I was doing wrong.

Shawn McBride 18:14 Ah.

Simon Sinek 18:14 And this went backwards and forwards as if it were a tennis match.

Shawn McBride 18:18 Yep.

Simon Sinek 18:18 Right?

Shawn McBride 18:19 Yep.

Simon Sinek 18:20 And I, and I was aware... I had awareness. I s- so my, my... I had self-awareness, I started with the S, and what went through my mind was, "I see what's going on here-

Shawn McBride 18:31 Yes

Simon Sinek 18:32 ... and this is not working."

Shawn McBride 18:35 This is not working.

Simon Sinek 18:35 Like, this tennis match is gonna go on forever-

Shawn McBride 18:37 Yep

Simon Sinek 18:37 ... and it's, it's one of us, we're gonna get to the point where one of us is gonna say something really mean.

Shawn McBride 18:42 Yes.

Simon Sinek 18:42 We weren't there yet-

Shawn McBride 18:43 Yes

Simon Sinek 18:43 ... but I could see how this movie plays out.

Shawn McBride 18:45 Yes.

Simon Sinek 18:46 And I remember literally interrupting. I said, "Babe, let's... This is clearly not gonna resolve-

Shawn McBride 18:54 Yes

Simon Sinek 18:54 ... and neither of us is gonna win this."

Shawn McBride 18:56 Yes.

Simon Sinek 18:56 "I would like to propose new rules-

Shawn McBride 18:59 Yes

Simon Sinek 18:59 ... for our argument. Because we're gonna argue-

Shawn McBride 19:02 Yes

Simon Sinek 19:02 ... I'm okay with that."

Shawn McBride 19:03 Yes.

Simon Sinek 19:03 "I would like to propose new rules for this argument-

Shawn McBride 19:06 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 19:06 ... for this game."

Shawn McBride 19:07 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 19:07 "My rule is I will now, instead of telling you everything I did right and you did wrong, I will now say what you did right and what I did wrong, and then it's gonna be your turn."

Shawn McBride 19:17 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 19:17 "And I'll go first." And I said, "Babe, you nailed this, you got this right, and here's where I screwed it up."

Shawn McBride 19:22 Ah, I see.

Simon Sinek 19:23 And she looked at me and said, "Well, here's what I got wrong, and here where you got right."

Shawn McBride 19:26 I love the humility.

Simon Sinek 19:27 And now we were practicing your T, togetherness.

Shawn McBride 19:29 Togetherness.

Simon Sinek 19:30 Where, where we were celebrating what the other person got right, and for the first time we could see that the other person wasn't wrong-

Shawn McBride 19:37 Yes

Simon Sinek 19:37 ... but that they were trying.

Shawn McBride 19:38 Yes, yes. Simon, I love it.

Simon Sinek 19:40 And that we weren't necessarily helping [laughs] the situation-

Shawn McBride 19:43 Yes

Simon Sinek 19:43 ... because we were scr- so we, we saw each other as complicit in the tension.

Shawn McBride 19:48 Yes, yes.

Simon Sinek 19:49 We saw ourselves as complicit in the tension, and we saw them as attempting to alleviate the tension.

Shawn McBride 19:54 Yes.

Simon Sinek 19:54 And I gotta tell you, very quickly-

Shawn McBride 19:55 Yes. The tension re-

Simon Sinek 19:57 The tension-

Shawn McBride 19:57 The tension subsided

Simon Sinek 19:58 ... it, it, it, it, it subsided.

Shawn McBride 20:00 Yes.

Simon Sinek 20:01 We s- we sat closer together, we started smiling, and we could actually get to the point of being rational and then, like, trying to figure out, how did we get in the fight-

Shawn McBride 20:10 Yes

Simon Sinek 20:10 ... in the first place.

Shawn McBride 20:11 Simon, that is such a powerful principle. That is such great rules of engagement. I love it because it expresses humility, but more importantly, it expresses, here it is, appreciation for your partner's-

Simon Sinek 20:28 Yeah

Shawn McBride 20:28 ... perspective. Simon, every counseling session, I end every couples counseling session, the last five to seven minutes, having that couple look at each other and share a couple of appreciations. Because Simon-

Simon Sinek 20:43 Yeah

Shawn McBride 20:43 ... just think about it, when you first started dating, there was a great sense of appreciation for your partner's-

Simon Sinek 20:51 Oh, for sure

Shawn McBride 20:51 ... perspective. And, and, and this is new and, and you vi- you value that perspective, and you validate the perspective, and you love the perspective, and come on, give me some more perspectives. But once you've been dating a year, or two years, or three years, you stop appreciating the perspective. You stop-

Simon Sinek 21:15 Yeah

Shawn McBride 21:15 ... appreciating the difference. So I encourage couples every single day, make a deposit into your relationship by telling your partner one thing you appreciate about him, one thing you appreciate about her, and watch what happens. I- in most relationships, couples are making more... If the relationship is a bank account-

Simon Sinek 21:36 Yeah

Shawn McBride 21:36 ... they are making more withdrawals-

Simon Sinek 21:39 Yeah

Shawn McBride 21:39 ... than they are deposits. When you are making deposits, you're intentionally-

Simon Sinek 21:45 Yeah

Shawn McBride 21:46 ... looking for things to be grateful for. You are intentionally looking for things to appreciate your partner for. So now you're on this quest to say, "You know what? First of all, I accept you for who you are, not for who I want you-

Simon Sinek 22:03 Yeah

Shawn McBride 22:03 ... to become." See, a lot of couples get into a relationship, in the back of their mind, "I'ma change him."

Simon Sinek 22:08 Yeah.

Shawn McBride 22:08 "I'ma change her." No. No, you don't go into a relationship-

Simon Sinek 22:11 Yeah

Shawn McBride 22:11 ... to change people. You go... Listen, in a relationship, if you go into it to be served, that's not gonna work, 'cause that's a lot of selfishness. But if you go into it to serve, to give of yourself, one of the-

Simon Sinek 22:28 Mm-hmm

Shawn McBride 22:28 ... greatest quotes of all time, "It is better to give than it is to receive." And so oftentimes in relationships-

Simon Sinek 22:34 Mm

Shawn McBride 22:34 ... we're looking to get, and we're looking to take, and I'm saying no, we have to go into it, how can I serve my partner? How can I love my partner better? How can I give to my partner?

Simon Sinek 22:46 One of the best things I ever learned, and thank goodness I learned it early in, in the relationship, was that both partners, or at least I, show up every day with the fantasy that my partner-

Shawn McBride 22:59 Mm

Simon Sinek 22:59 ... can read my mind.

Shawn McBride 23:00 Mm. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 23:02 You know? Like, how did you not know that-

Shawn McBride 23:03 Yeah

Simon Sinek 23:04 ... I dot, dot, dot? You should have known that-

Shawn McBride 23:07 Yeah

Simon Sinek 23:07 ... I dot, dot, dot.

Shawn McBride 23:09 Yeah. Part of us-

Simon Sinek 23:09 You know?

Shawn McBride 23:10 Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 23:11 And, like, I just, and I just love that, that we show up with the fantasy that our partners can read our minds [laughs] and instantaneously like, "Uh, yeah."

Shawn McBride 23:19 So in communication, in a relationship-

Simon Sinek 23:23 Right

Shawn McBride 23:23 ... what do you want? What do you mean? [laughs] Break it down.

Simon Sinek 23:27 We are students in our own relationships.

Shawn McBride 23:30 Yes.

Simon Sinek 23:30 Like, and, and, and for years, like, like these little nuances. Like, I grew up in a different country, and so sometimes the language I use-

Shawn McBride 23:37 Yes

Simon Sinek 23:37 ... or the points of view that I have are-

Shawn McBride 23:39 Yes

Simon Sinek 23:39 ... different than where I live now, and my partner is on an education, and I have to not o- and I can't be frustrated-

Shawn McBride 23:46 Yes

Simon Sinek 23:46 ... if my student doesn't understand something. I have to be, I have to be a good teacher and be like-

Shawn McBride 23:50 Yes

Simon Sinek 23:50 ... "Ah, here's what I meant." But likewise, I am the student as well, and we can s- and we-

Shawn McBride 23:56 Yeah

Simon Sinek 23:56 ... and if our, if our teacher gets mad at us for not understanding, we can say, "Hey-

Shawn McBride 24:01 [laughs] Yeah, yeah, yeah

Simon Sinek 24:02 ... I, I'm the idiot. I didn't understand."

Shawn McBride 24:04 Yes.

Simon Sinek 24:04 "You need to teach me your point of view so that I can learn it-

Shawn McBride 24:07 That's it

Simon Sinek 24:07 ... so this doesn't happen again. So the next time you say it, you can say it in the shorthand next time-

Shawn McBride 24:11 Yes, yes

Simon Sinek 24:12 ... and I'll understand."

Shawn McBride 24:12 And doing that with patience, doing that with grace-

Simon Sinek 24:17 Yeah

Shawn McBride 24:17 ... doing that in calmness. "Hey, teach me." I don't understand. Hey, rather than-

Simon Sinek 24:24 Yeah

Shawn McBride 24:24 ... fighting, rather than r- I don't understand, so I'm outta here.

Simon Sinek 24:28 Yeah.

Shawn McBride 24:29 Or I don't understand, so I'ma freeze up on you-

Simon Sinek 24:31 Yeah, yeah

Shawn McBride 24:31 ... for a week, [laughs] right? So, so being able to communicate-

Simon Sinek 24:35 Yeah

Shawn McBride 24:36 ... in a kind way.

Simon Sinek 24:37 So we have one more to get to, which is infidelity. But before we do that-

Shawn McBride 24:41 Yes

Simon Sinek 24:41 ... before we do that, I wanna interrupt with-

Shawn McBride 24:44 Yes

Simon Sinek 24:44 ... uh, an observation, which is the, which is one of the-

Shawn McBride 24:48 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 24:48 ... main reasons I wanted you on here. One of the reasons I love you is because all relationships-

Shawn McBride 24:54 Mm

Simon Sinek 24:54 ... are the same, whether it's a romantic relationship-

Shawn McBride 24:57 Yes

Simon Sinek 24:57 ... or a work relationship. And in work relationships-

Shawn McBride 25:00 There you go

Simon Sinek 25:00 ... we have communication breakdowns-

Shawn McBride 25:01 Yes

Simon Sinek 25:01 ... we have conflict, we have power dynamics, we have misunderstandings, we have misuse of language.

Shawn McBride 25:06 Yes.

Simon Sinek 25:07 All, everything that you and I have said, everything you and I have talked about-

Shawn McBride 25:10 Yes

Simon Sinek 25:11 ... is transferable-

Shawn McBride 25:13 Yes, it is

Simon Sinek 25:13 ... is transferable to a work environment. Because re-

Shawn McBride 25:16 Yes

Simon Sinek 25:16 ... all relationships are emotional, even at work. And so when w- the reason I'm interrupting now to bring that up is because as we get into-

Shawn McBride 25:23 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 25:23 ... the third one, which is infidelity, you don't really have infidelity-

Shawn McBride 25:27 Yeah

Simon Sinek 25:27 ... in a-

Shawn McBride 25:27 Yeah, sure

Simon Sinek 25:28 ... work environment.

Shawn McBride 25:28 Right.

Simon Sinek 25:28 I mean, I guess you could go give something to your competitor, but that doesn't really happen much. But it's what we're talking about is-

Shawn McBride 25:33 Yes

Simon Sinek 25:33 ... complete break of trust.

Shawn McBride 25:36 Yes.

Simon Sinek 25:36 And so I wanted to, I wanted to share that we're, we're about to talk about an infidelity has application to any relationship where there's a complete-

Shawn McBride 25:44 Yes

Simon Sinek 25:44 ... break in trust.

Shawn McBride 25:47 Yes. Yes.

Simon Sinek 25:48 Shawn McBride, infidelity. How do you help couples overcome the trauma of trusting someone who just at every core of what a relationship's supposed to be, they violate that, that trust?

Shawn McBride 26:02 It's very hard, Simon.

Simon Sinek 26:02 And how do they repair it?

Shawn McBride 26:04 Um, it's one of the most painful, difficult, arduous conversations that I have during the course of the week when couples are trying to recover. Simon, I don't, I don't want to sound like I'm making excuses for anybody, but before we talk about the relationship-

Simon Sinek 26:24 Mm-hmm

Shawn McBride 26:24 ... and what happened, sometimes we have to go back. I never say to a man who's cheated or a woman who, who's cheated, "What's wrong with you?" I have a better question that Dr. Bruce Perry talks about in his book with Oprah Winfrey is, "What happened to you?" Because Simon, sometimes-

Simon Sinek 26:45 Mm

Shawn McBride 26:45 ... what is happening is connected to what happened, whether it's a man or a woman. And sometimes men and women go into these relationships-

Simon Sinek 26:57 Mm-hmm

Shawn McBride 26:57 ... with unresolved childhood trauma. What happens to a man or a woman-

Simon Sinek 27:03 Mm-hmm

Shawn McBride 27:03 ... in the first two decades of their life will influence them as adults, for better or for worse. So when you talk about a child who's been abandoned, a child who's been neglected, a child who's been abused verbally, sexually, emotionally, and if, if that a person who's now a, who's an adult, if that stuff is not unresolved, I'm not saying it's the reason they cheated. What I am saying is you have-

Simon Sinek 27:37 Mm

Shawn McBride 27:37 ... to include that in the conversation, because some people in infidelity-

Simon Sinek 27:43 Mm-hmm

Shawn McBride 27:43 ... are, are trying to heal core wounds outside of their primary relationship.

Simon Sinek 27:52 Mm-hmm.

Shawn McBride 27:53 They're, they're trying to get-

Simon Sinek 27:55 Mm

Shawn McBride 27:55 ... very basic needs met outside of their relationship.

Simon Sinek 28:01 Yeah.

Shawn McBride 28:01 Because the relationship is not working.

Simon Sinek 28:03 Mm-hmm.

Shawn McBride 28:03 The relationship in their mind is not fixable. So I, but I still have these needs. For, for a woman-

Simon Sinek 28:09 Mm

Shawn McBride 28:10 ... she still wants conversation. She still wants affection, and so if she can't get that in her primary relationship, she's human. I'm not saying it's right, but she'll seek it elsewhere. If you look at statistics, n- the number one reason that men cheat is not because of sex. When, when a man cheat, if you look at stats and statistics like I do, what they're really seeking is admiration. What they're really seeking is respect. Sex becomes this secondary thing that happens, but they get connected to the woman because she admires him, she honors him, she makes him feel a certain way. Same thing with a woman. When a woman cheat, what I've discovered is when you break it down, okay, what happened? It started with a conversation. 'Cause most women want two hours of conversation every day with their man, 14 hours of conversation a week. If they're starving for conversation, if that man is freezing, if he's flighting and not giving her conversation, she finds it elsewhere.

Simon Sinek 29:13 Mm-hmm.

Shawn McBride 29:13 Again, I'm not saying it's right.

Simon Sinek 29:16 Mm.

Shawn McBride 29:16 I'm saying here's what I've discovered-

Simon Sinek 29:19 Mm

Shawn McBride 29:19 ... with thousands of people why some people make that choice. And, and recovering from it is very hard.

Simon Sinek 29:25 And I, and I think what you're also saying is you're, you're not offering an excuse for the behavior.

Shawn McBride 29:30 Absolutely not. Absolutely not.

Simon Sinek 29:31 What you're saying is that the person is still accountable for their behavior.

Shawn McBride 29:35 Yes.

Simon Sinek 29:35 But we want to-

Shawn McBride 29:35 Yes

Simon Sinek 29:35 ... understand the root of the behavior, because if we don't understand the root, the behavior will probably-

Shawn McBride 29:39 There you go

Simon Sinek 29:40 ... continue. So-

Shawn McBride 29:41 There you go

Simon Sinek 29:41 ... it's, it's accountability and...

Shawn McBride 29:44 Accountability and. But Simon, what's interesting is I would say 90% of the couples I work with through the process of recovering from infidelity, either one of them acknowledges that while they are not responsible for the behavior-

Simon Sinek 30:04 Yeah

Shawn McBride 30:04 ... they contributed to the behavior.

Simon Sinek 30:06 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Shawn McBride 30:07 They contributed by doing something-

Simon Sinek 30:10 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Shawn McBride 30:10 ... pushing the person away-

Simon Sinek 30:12 Yeah

Shawn McBride 30:12 ... or not doing something-

Simon Sinek 30:14 Yeah

Shawn McBride 30:14 ... that pushed the person away. And so this is what men and women are telling me.

Simon Sinek 30:19 This is something I've learned in my own relationships as well, both professional and personal, which is-

Shawn McBride 30:23 Yes

Simon Sinek 30:24 ... we both like to accuse the other person of having started the fight.

Shawn McBride 30:27 Yes.

Simon Sinek 30:28 And what I have learned is, yes, absolutely, in, there is usually one person who started the fight-

Shawn McBride 30:33 Started the fight, yes

Simon Sinek 30:34 ... and almost always the other person-

Shawn McBride 30:35 Yes

Simon Sinek 30:35 ... poured gas on the fight.

Shawn McBride 30:37 That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying

Simon Sinek 30:40 ... almost always somebody started the fire, but invariably the other person poured gas on the fire.

Shawn McBride 30:44 Poured gas on it.

Simon Sinek 30:44 And so we, we, we both fight about who started it, but the reality is I either started it or I made it worse.

Shawn McBride 30:49 Or you made it worse.

Simon Sinek 30:50 So I'm, I'm accountable.

Shawn McBride 30:51 Yes.

Simon Sinek 30:51 I bear, I bear some accountability for the-

Shawn McBride 30:53 Yes

Simon Sinek 30:53 ... fire that is, exists right now.

Shawn McBride 30:56 Yes. Yes.

Simon Sinek 30:57 And, and, and, and, and, and, and as you're speaking about the difficulties of resolving infidelity, it does go directly to, uh, work relationships as well, which is people who are secretive, people-

Shawn McBride 31:07 Yes

Simon Sinek 31:07 ... who hide information, maybe-

Shawn McBride 31:09 Yes

Simon Sinek 31:09 ... lie at work, maybe-

Shawn McBride 31:11 Yes

Simon Sinek 31:11 ... deceive, uh, is, is because they have been taken advantage of. They have-

Shawn McBride 31:16 And they don't feel safe

Simon Sinek 31:17 ... they've had their ideas stolen.

Shawn McBride 31:18 They don't feel safe to share

Simon Sinek 31:20 ... I had, I had a teammate once years ago who, who would lie to me if she got anything wrong, right? She would just flat out lie.

Shawn McBride 31:29 Yes.

Simon Sinek 31:29 And I- we were going through a, a, a document that I could plainly see that the numbers didn't add up, literally.

Shawn McBride 31:34 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 31:35 And I basically point out and say, "These don't add up." And she basically fought me and said they do. I don't understand her backstory. I don't understand why she's telling me they do add up when clearly they don't. So I'm-

Shawn McBride 31:46 Yes

Simon Sinek 31:46 ... rational now, so I now start doing math on a piece of paper-

Shawn McBride 31:50 [laughs] Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 31:50 ... pointing out to her how she's wrong, and she's getting angrier and angrier, and I keep trying to show her the math is wrong. I later learned that she had a completely screwed up-

Shawn McBride 32:01 Yes

Simon Sinek 32:01 ... childhood with a very overbearing father-

Shawn McBride 32:03 Yes

Simon Sinek 32:04 ... and judges her self-worth-

Shawn McBride 32:06 Work, yes

Simon Sinek 32:06 ... on her work product.

Shawn McBride 32:07 Yes.

Simon Sinek 32:07 And by me criticizing her work product, she took it as I was-

Shawn McBride 32:11 Yes

Simon Sinek 32:11 ... criticizing her entire self-worth.

Shawn McBride 32:13 Yes.

Simon Sinek 32:13 She wasn't defending the math.

Shawn McBride 32:14 Herself, yes.

Simon Sinek 32:15 She was defending herself.

Shawn McBride 32:16 Yes. Yes.

Simon Sinek 32:18 And, and I had to... And fortunately we had a, a good enough relationship that that-

Shawn McBride 32:22 Yes

Simon Sinek 32:22 ... came out, and I could learn that, and I could say, "Look, you telling me-

Shawn McBride 32:29 Yes

Simon Sinek 32:30 ... a mistake, I'll help you fix it."

Shawn McBride 32:32 Yes.

Simon Sinek 32:32 "If you hide a mistake or you lie to me-

Shawn McBride 32:34 Yes

Simon Sinek 32:34 ... about a mistake, I can't help you."

Shawn McBride 32:37 Yes. And Simon, every couple has a story. Every couple-

Simon Sinek 32:42 Yeah

Shawn McBride 32:42 ... they have a background. They have-

Simon Sinek 32:44 Yeah

Shawn McBride 32:44 ... they typically have wounds. They typically have trauma. They typically have unresolved stuff in their life. That doesn't just change because you turn 30 or 40-

Simon Sinek 32:57 Right

Shawn McBride 32:57 ... or 50. Simon, I work with a lot of... I do a lot of work with African American men. I got guys coming to me in their 60s and 70s, Simon, who are trying to make sense of why they are, y- you know, making these mistakes at this particular stage in their lives. And what I try to help them to understand is because you've never connected the dots with your trauma from the past. You've never con... I, I had a guy recently who committed infidelity, and he's 65 years old, and when you spend time and you break it down, he's been trying to prove something-

Simon Sinek 33:36 Yeah

Shawn McBride 33:36 ... ever since he was 15 years old. Again-

Simon Sinek 33:39 Yeah

Shawn McBride 33:39 ... I'm not making excuses for anybody, but I'm not the therapist-

Simon Sinek 33:43 Look, that's a dynamic, right

Shawn McBride 33:44 ... I'm not the therapist that's just gonna write people off, "Hey, you made a mistake. You're the worst person ever." You won't be the first person to commit adultery. You won't be the last person. Let's try to understand what happened therapeutically. Let's try to-

Simon Sinek 33:57 Yeah

Shawn McBride 33:57 ... understand the dynamic so we can fix it, hold you accountable so you never make that mistake again.

Simon Sinek 34:04 Okay. Now let's talk about the things that you have seen that actually make relationships work.

Shawn McBride 34:08 Oh, good.

Simon Sinek 34:09 And I have to believe that, I have to believe that there's more than just the opposite of what you talked about. They're good at listening [laughs]

Shawn McBride 34:13 Yes. Yes

Simon Sinek 34:14 ... they're good... Like, you know, like, what are the things that we can learn, that we can start a relationship and say, "Okay, here's what I know." You know, Sh- Shawn's practice of, of decades and working with people, here are the common threads that he has found of great relationships.

Shawn McBride 34:28 Great relationships.

Simon Sinek 34:28 The relationships that are, that are the models that we should admire. These are the common threads.

Shawn McBride 34:33 Yes. So Simon, let me say, first of all, love is important, but it's not enough.

Simon Sinek 34:41 Mm-hmm.

Shawn McBride 34:41 Love can make the relationship work, but it's not enough. So in addition to, "Hey, we love each other," if a-

Simon Sinek 34:50 Yeah

Shawn McBride 34:50 ... relationship is not working, I try to take a couple back to the beginning of the relationship. What were you doing at the very beginning? 'Cause there's a reason you stayed this long. And typically, when you go back to the beginning-

Simon Sinek 35:06 Yeah

Shawn McBride 35:06 ... number one, we spent a lot of time together. W- we made the relationship a priority, because couples that play together stay together, right?

Simon Sinek 35:16 Yeah.

Shawn McBride 35:16 A lot of couples who date, if they get married, they're getting married because they're having so much fun, they don't want it to end, and they say, "Let's do this forever." They get married, and guess what they stop doing? [laughs] They stop dating. So, so dating each other.

Simon Sinek 35:31 They stop dating.

Shawn McBride 35:31 I know it's very-

Simon Sinek 35:32 Yeah

Shawn McBride 35:32 ... basic and elementary, but s- you would be shocked at the amount of people who are now married that no longer date. They... Because listen, everything in their life is pulling away from the relationship. Now they have kids, now they have work, now they have in-laws, now they have responsibility. So everything is pulling away, and if they are not dating, if they are not investing and spending time, they grow apart.

Simon Sinek 36:01 Yeah.

Shawn McBride 36:01 So love is important. Dating is important. Spending time together. Uh, Simon-

Simon Sinek 36:07 Mm-hmm

Shawn McBride 36:08 ... patience is a virtue. Listen, I've been married 30 years to the same woman.

Simon Sinek 36:13 Yeah.

Shawn McBride 36:14 I'm not the guy I was 30 years ago. Simon, I don't even think I'm the guy I was five years ago. So, so patience is a virtue. Relationships, people should go into relationships not as a sprint, but as a marathon. People are human.

Simon Sinek 36:34 Yeah.

Shawn McBride 36:34 People mess up. People don't know how to communicate. People don't know how to resolve conflict. People say the wrong things. But you gotta be patient with your partner, right? Trust is important. Making sure that we don't do anything that's going to jeopardize the relationship. You know, as a former pastor, I've done a lot of weddings. To have, to hold, to love, to cherish, for better, for worse, for rich and for poor, sickness and in health, forsaking all others. Forsaking all others. In other words, we're not gonna let anybody get between us. We're gonna forsake them so we can be loyal to each other.

Simon Sinek 37:19 Mm.

Shawn McBride 37:20 So that loyalty, Simon, that we are loyal and committed to each other. I'll give you two, two more and I'm done. Being able to adjust. When you get into a relationship, your partner becomes a mirror, and if you love your partner and your partner loves you, you can learn from each other. Are you willing to make adjustments-

Simon Sinek 37:45 Mm

Shawn McBride 37:46 ... as your partner suggests? 'Cause, 'cause we all have blind spots. As a therapist, I tell my clients, "It's hard to see the picture when you're in the frame." I'm outside the frame, so I can point out things that y'all can't see because you're in the frame. Are you willing to adjust to the areas, the blind spots-

Simon Sinek 38:08 Mm

Shawn McBride 38:08 ... that your partner brings up? And the last one I'll give you, which is big, Simon-

Simon Sinek 38:13 Mm

Shawn McBride 38:13 ... we gotta learn how to apologize. We have to learn in relationship to say-

Simon Sinek 38:19 Yeah

Shawn McBride 38:20 ... "I'm sorry, will you forgive me?" Not just, "I'm sorry." I own my mistake, I acknowledge my mistake, I said the wrong thing, I yelled, I shut... Whatever.

Simon Sinek 38:34 Yeah.

Shawn McBride 38:35 "I'm sorry. Will you forgive me?" When couples get humble and are able to apologize... Simon, do you know how many times-

Simon Sinek 38:43 Yeah

Shawn McBride 38:43 ... in 30 years of marriage I've had to apologize to my wife, how many times she had to apologize to me? Isn't that the nature of relationships, whether in the workplace-

Simon Sinek 38:52 Yeah

Shawn McBride 38:52 ... or in, in relationships, dating, engaged, married, to be able to say-

Simon Sinek 38:58 Yeah

Shawn McBride 38:58 ... "I'm sorry. Will you forgive me?"

Simon Sinek 39:01 Saying you're sorry doesn't mean you're wrong.

Shawn McBride 39:02 You accept accountability.

Simon Sinek 39:03 It just means you accept accountability-

Shawn McBride 39:04 You accept accountability

Simon Sinek 39:05 ... for your role in the situation.

Shawn McBride 39:07 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 39:07 That's all it is. I, I, I really like-

Shawn McBride 39:10 Yeah

Simon Sinek 39:10 ... the I'm sorry, I'm accountable-

Shawn McBride 39:12 Yeah

Simon Sinek 39:12 ... and the ability to say, "I'm sorry I yelled," "I'm sorry I contributed," "I'm sorry I poured-"

Shawn McBride 39:16 Yes

Simon Sinek 39:16 ... "poured gas on the fire," "I'm sorry I started the fire."

Shawn McBride 39:18 Will you forgive me?

Simon Sinek 39:18 Whatever it is. Will you forgive me? Because the-

Shawn McBride 39:21 Yes, it is

Simon Sinek 39:22 ... apologizing is a humbling thing, and it creates-

Shawn McBride 39:25 Yes

Simon Sinek 39:25 ... it lo- it creates a lopsided-

Shawn McBride 39:27 Yes

Simon Sinek 39:27 ... a balance in that dynamic, and will you, will you-

Shawn McBride 39:31 Yes

Simon Sinek 39:31 ... will you forgive me even, evens it out.

Shawn McBride 39:33 Yes

Simon Sinek 39:34 ... that both, both of the pa-

Shawn McBride 39:35 Yes

Simon Sinek 39:35 ... in the couple have to be humble in that moment. That-

Shawn McBride 39:38 Yes

Simon Sinek 39:38 ... that's an addition that I hadn't thought about before, which is incredibly, incredibly magical and powerful.

Shawn McBride 39:44 And, and that's what keeps people together for-

Simon Sinek 39:46 Yeah

Shawn McBride 39:46 ... a long time, forgiveness. My parents have been married 55 years.

Simon Sinek 39:50 Yeah.

Shawn McBride 39:50 If you ask them, "What's the secret?" We've been forgiving each other for 55 years. [laughs] My, my wife's parents were married 45 years before they passed. If you ask them, forgiveness, we've been forgiving each other. If, if, if people can't forgive, they shouldn't be in relationship, 'cause if you're in a relationship, you're with another human being who's gonna make mistakes along the way.

Simon Sinek 40:15 Yeah.

Shawn McBride 40:16 But being able to forgive is grand.

Simon Sinek 40:19 Yeah.

Shawn McBride 40:19 It's golden.

Simon Sinek 40:21 What... Can you tell me, uh, an experience you've had in your years of doing this, or maybe it's one couple that you worked with that really-

Shawn McBride 40:29 Yeah

Simon Sinek 40:29 ... stands out in, in your, in your years of doing this, that if every couple was like this couple, or if every experience you had was like this one experience, you... literally, you would be the most fulfilled person in the world.

Shawn McBride 40:39 Yeah. Boy, very specific. I'll give you a couple that came to me several years ago on their last leg, last thread, married 42 years. So I'll use an older couple. Married 42 years, and they are ready to-

Simon Sinek 40:55 Right

Shawn McBride 40:55 ... call it quits. They're ready to give it up. Grown children, grandchildren. Simon, number one, they did the work of therapy and counseling as a couple. So much to unpack, but I worked with them for a year. So much to work... You don't do that in 55 minutes. You don't do that in two sessions. They committed themselves. Before we give up, before we throw in the towel, let's meet with a third party to get perspective. I worked with them for a year. Number two, they did individual work. Simon, when people get into relationship, it goes back to how we started this conversation. They come into the relationship with baggage, with issues, with pain, with trauma, that they're thinking the relationship, the marriage, the boyfriend/girlfriend's gonna fix. It doesn't. They did the individual work through individual therapy. So just think about it. A, a healthy me leads to a healthy we. [laughs] We are better because I'm better.

Simon Sinek 42:10 Yeah.

Shawn McBride 42:10 Right? And so, and so they... And, and then the, the last thing is-

Simon Sinek 42:14 Mm-hmm

Shawn McBride 42:14 ... because just showing up for couples counseling and therapy, just showing up for individual counseling and therapy doesn't solve the problem. You have to be intentional in doing the work. Simon, if I was a doctor and I wrote you a prescription for your bronchitis.

Simon Sinek 42:30 Mm-hmm.

Shawn McBride 42:30 "Okay, Simon, take this pill once a day for the next 14 days." If you don't take the medicine, you gonna be stuck with bronchitis. It is not just showing up.

Simon Sinek 42:43 Mm-hmm.

Shawn McBride 42:43 It's doing the work, whether that work is reading, whether that work is dating-

Simon Sinek 42:49 Right

Shawn McBride 42:49 ... whether that work is daily appreciation, whether that work is- ... you, you know, having deeper conversations. Couples get better, individuals get better when they choose to do the work. That couple I met with several years ago, married 42 years, th- that's 40-something now, this past Saturday night the husband took me out for a steak dinner. He reached out to me, said, "Hey, I'm thinking about you. You saved our marriage, [laughs] you saved our relationship. I wanna take you to dinner." And I took him to the most expensive restaurant that I could find. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 43:26 [laughs]

Shawn McBride 43:27 I got the most expensive steak. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 43:31 You earned it. [laughs]

Shawn McBride 43:31 No. No, no. But he was just so appreciative, and again, even to this day, he, he is still doing the work.

Simon Sinek 43:40 Yeah.

Shawn McBride 43:41 She... They are accountable. See, most people don't do-

Simon Sinek 43:44 So of all of-

Shawn McBride 43:44 Yes

Simon Sinek 43:44 ... all of the couples you've helped, of all of the couples you've helped, you've helped a lot of people.

Shawn McBride 43:48 Thousands.

Simon Sinek 43:48 Not all of them were successful-

Shawn McBride 43:49 Yes

Simon Sinek 43:49 ... but you've helped a lot, a l- uh, thousands of couples-

Shawn McBride 43:52 Yes

Simon Sinek 43:53 ... uh, find, find solidity in their relationships.

Shawn McBride 43:56 Yes.

Simon Sinek 43:56 What is it specifically about this one couple that's so amazing-

Shawn McBride 44:01 Yeah

Simon Sinek 44:01 ... that you choose to talk about them and not any of the others right now?

Shawn McBride 44:05 Oh, man. I, I don't know. They represent longevity. I think, I think people give up on each other too soon. They just represent longevity to me.

Simon Sinek 44:16 Yeah.

Shawn McBride 44:16 They represent a couple that's had every issue imaginable in their relationship. They've been through the fire, they've been through storms, ups and downs. They got married young. Highs and lows. But 42 years later, when they're ready to walk away, they say, "Let's give it one more chance. Let's get help." And I don't know, Simon, I, I, I'm just a optimistic guy. I want every couple to win.

Simon Sinek 44:44 Yeah.

Shawn McBride 44:45 I want every relationship to last forever. And I, I, I don't know, I just think if people can learn the skills and get the tools and be patient and keep working-

Simon Sinek 44:54 Mm

Shawn McBride 44:54 ... that, that we'll have less breakups and more love, uh, and more unconditional love. So...

Simon Sinek 45:01 Tell me an early, specific happy childhood memory, something I can relive with you.

Shawn McBride 45:06 Boy, an early memory of childhood. Like I was three years old-

Simon Sinek 45:12 Oh, early. Okay. Go on

Shawn McBride 45:13 ... and mo- moved out of, moved out of a one-bedroom apartment with four kids and two parents into, uh, our very first home in Maryland.

Simon Sinek 45:22 Mm-hmm.

Shawn McBride 45:22 My parents got their very first home. Rent with the option to buy. And I remember that like it was yesterday, being in this, what, back then what I thought was this mansion, [laughs] you know? Uh, my parents getting that home was just... I'll never forget that. And, and, and growing up there and the experiences there. Yes. Ch- Christmas is there, Thanksgiving's there.

Simon Sinek 45:42 You had many chil- uh, happy experiences in your childhood.

Shawn McBride 45:45 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 45:45 What was it about that memory-

Shawn McBride 45:48 Yeah

Simon Sinek 45:48 ... of the, of the leaving the one-bedroom apartment and going to the home? What is it about that memory that brings you such joy when you talk about it now?

Shawn McBride 45:55 Yeah. S- security. Uh, growth. Um, uh, accomplishment for two poor lower middle class African American parents who some way, somehow, through a rent with an option to buy, got favor, didn't have the credit, but got favor with an owner who let them do that. And by the way, they've been living in that house for 50 years now. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 46:25 Mm-hmm.

Shawn McBride 46:26 That same house for 50 years, so yeah.

Simon Sinek 46:28 So what I find magical-

Shawn McBride 46:31 Yes

Simon Sinek 46:31 ... is the way that you describe that childhood memory-

Shawn McBride 46:34 Yeah

Simon Sinek 46:34 ... is very similar to the way that you describe that couple.

Shawn McBride 46:38 Yes.

Simon Sinek 46:38 Which is they started in a place-

Shawn McBride 46:40 Yes

Simon Sinek 46:41 ... and they moved into a home.

Shawn McBride 46:44 Great observation.

Simon Sinek 46:45 And they decided to make a life together-

Shawn McBride 46:47 Yeah

Simon Sinek 46:47 ... that had the growth and the love and the family.

Shawn McBride 46:51 Yes.

Simon Sinek 46:51 And the reason after 41 years or 40-something years they decided not to just go to a therapist or have-

Shawn McBride 46:57 Yes

Simon Sinek 46:57 ... a session or two, but to commit an entire year of couples-

Shawn McBride 47:00 Yes

Simon Sinek 47:00 ... and individual therapy-

Shawn McBride 47:01 There you go

Simon Sinek 47:02 ... is because we've moved into a home, and we could abandon an apartment, but you can't abandon a home.

Shawn McBride 47:08 That's it. That's it. Simon, you're so wise.

Simon Sinek 47:11 You know? And so-

Shawn McBride 47:11 Great connection. Great connection

Simon Sinek 47:13 ... and, and like dating is an apartment.

Shawn McBride 47:16 Yes. Yes.

Simon Sinek 47:17 You know? It's a little cramped. It's a little...

Shawn McBride 47:19 Yes

Simon Sinek 47:19 ... you know, it's, it provides some security. It provides some comfort, and if the dating doesn't survive, so you move into another apartment.

Shawn McBride 47:27 Move into another apartment.

Simon Sinek 47:28 There's not that much stuff. It's not that difficult.

Shawn McBride 47:30 That's it.

Simon Sinek 47:31 But when you, when you find yourself in relationship, you have decided-

Shawn McBride 47:35 Yes

Simon Sinek 47:35 ... you have moved from dating into com- into, into we are gonna build a home.

Shawn McBride 47:39 Yes.

Simon Sinek 47:39 We're gonna build a relationship. My couch becomes our couch.

Shawn McBride 47:42 Our couch.

Simon Sinek 47:44 And, and now-

Shawn McBride 47:45 Me becomes we

Simon Sinek 47:46 ... me becomes we, and we have children, and, you know, and just the same as your parents, which is, you know, we didn't have a lot.

Shawn McBride 47:53 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 47:54 But we did the work.

Shawn McBride 47:56 Yes.

Simon Sinek 47:56 We had a little help from the outside.

Shawn McBride 47:58 Yes.

Simon Sinek 47:58 Somebody believed in us, we believed in ourselves, and we built a home, and to throw that away-

Shawn McBride 48:03 Mm

Simon Sinek 48:04 ... is, is, is ignoring the work that has been done, and it reminds me, you know, and this is what I think your life's work sounds like it has, it, and it is in your therapy, which is you've done the work.

Shawn McBride 48:16 Yes.

Simon Sinek 48:16 Why would you let that work go in vain?

Shawn McBride 48:20 Bingo.

Simon Sinek 48:21 Like, like if you've done no work, go ahead, date someone else.

Shawn McBride 48:24 Go ahead. Yeah. Date... Yeah. Do the work.

Simon Sinek 48:26 Move on. It's okay.

Shawn McBride 48:27 Do the work.

Simon Sinek 48:27 But if you've done so much work to build a relationship, to, to learn how to fight, to learn how to listen, to learn the techniques, to learn-

Shawn McBride 48:34 Yes

Simon Sinek 48:34 ... the skills, don't let, don't let that effort go in vain.

Shawn McBride 48:37 Yes.

Simon Sinek 48:38 And I find that just poetry, to be honest.

Shawn McBride 48:42 Yes. It's poetry. It's poetry. And Simon, we learn to, if through counseling and therapy, if we can get the individual help, we can break patterns, negative patterns.

Simon Sinek 48:55 Yeah.

Shawn McBride 48:55 We can break cycles. We can, we can get healed. We can become whole. We can become better.

Simon Sinek 49:04 Yeah.

Shawn McBride 49:04 We can have greater understanding. Rather than doing that with, you know, 20 different people over 10 years. Like, like, like-

Simon Sinek 49:13 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Shawn McBride 49:13 ... th- there's, th- th- if you, if, if she keeps breaking up with you, maybe you're the common denominator, right? [laughs] Like-

Simon Sinek 49:19 Yeah, yeah. Yeah

Shawn McBride 49:20 ... or if you keep breaking up with her, m- So, so how do we break those cycles? How do we-

Simon Sinek 49:24 Yeah

Shawn McBride 49:24 ... learn to live in love and peace and get healthy? And so I'm just a huge fan of counseling and therapy, which I think works as people do the work.

Simon Sinek 49:33 You're, you're a big fan of work.

Shawn McBride 49:34 Yes.

Simon Sinek 49:34 You're a big fan of doing the work.

Shawn McBride 49:36 Doing the work, yes.

Simon Sinek 49:38 Shawn, are you free for the next four hours to keep talking?

Shawn McBride 49:40 [laughs] I wish, man.

Simon Sinek 49:41 Just-

Shawn McBride 49:42 I'm hungry. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 49:43 Because I absolutely love talking to you.

Shawn McBride 49:45 Me too, man.

Simon Sinek 49:45 Y- you have taught me so, you have taught me so much. You have challenged perspectives. You've given me tools.

Shawn McBride 49:51 Bless you.

Simon Sinek 49:51 Um, I, I leave after this time with you, uh, I hope, uh, a, a, a, a better leader, a better partner, a better friend, a, a, a better in any kind of relationship that I have because, because you are out there in the world spreading your gospel.

Shawn McBride 50:06 Thank you, buddy.

Simon Sinek 50:07 Thank you. Thank you.

Shawn McBride 50:07 Thank you for the opportunity.

Simon Sinek 50:08 Thank you for, for inspiring us to continue to do the work.

Shawn McBride 50:12 Do the work.

Simon Sinek 50:13 We've already come this far. It's worth, it's worth that we keep fighting.

Shawn McBride 50:17 Yes, indeed. Yes, indeed. You're very welcome. It's been my honor, it's been my privilege. Thank you. So great to meet you, Simon. S-

Simon Sinek 50:25 So good. [outro music] If you enjoyed this podcast and would like to hear more, please subscribe wherever you like to listen to podcasts. And if you'd like even more optimism, check out my website, simonsinek.com, for classes, videos, and more. Until then, take care of yourself, take care of each other.