EVERY SPOKEN WORD
50 min read · 10,285 words- 0:00 – 5:23
The Letter That Changed Everything: Meeting Bob Chapman
- SSSimon Sinek
I can no longer be accused of being a crazy idealist if what I imagine exists in reality. That's how I felt after I met Bob Chapman and learned about Barry-Wehmiller, the company he led. Sixteen years ago, Bob saw my original TED Talk about the why and sent me a letter. He claimed to have built a company like the one that I described in my work. The only problem is I tend to write about what's possible. My vision is more of a striving. Clearly, my curiosity was piqued, and so a couple of months later, I met Bob for lunch. To say he was amazing is an understatement. He had an energy like few other CEOs I've ever met before, and that one-hour lunch turned into spending three hours together that afternoon. Bob told me story after story about his culture and his people and how they were responsible for the reason the company outperformed the S&P year after year after year. Now, you have to understand, CEOs often try to convince me that they have the best cultures, and very often, after I take a look for myself, I learn that, well, they don't. As much as I loved meeting Bob, I wanted to see it to believe it, and see it I did. We spent four days together, traveling from factory to factory across the Midwest, and what I saw blew my mind. This unknown CEO leading a company with a hard-to-remember name had built a culture that could be the model for all companies. Barry-Wehmiller figured out how to build a business model and a corporate culture that kept people safe, really safe, as well as psychologically safe. They didn't send jobs overseas to save money, they didn't lay anyone off during the 2008 Recession, and they won't be replacing people with AI. This company wasn't built for the short-term ambitions of investors, but for the long-term benefit of the people who worked with and for the company. It's built to last generations. Bob built something that he and I both believe deeply: that business can and must be a force for good in the world, not just by giving money away, but by the very business model itself. The very existence of Barry-Wehmiller meant, as I said before, that I can no longer be accused of being a crazy idealist if what I imagine exists in reality. I went on to write about Bob and Barry-Wehmiller in my book, Leaders Eat Last, and Bob and I went on to become very dear friends, and he became a very close mentor. In September 2025, I decided to go back to one of Bob's factories in Phillips, Wisconsin, except this time, I brought a camera crew with me. I wanted to show the world what Bob had built. We made a mini documentary so that the world could meet some of the amazing people who worked in Phillips and to hear from Bob himself. That episode went on to be one of the most popular episodes we've ever released, and I'm so glad we made it, because six months after our visit, Bob passed away. I miss Bob desperately. There's barely a day that goes by that I don't have an impulse to call or text him to ask his advice, make fun of him, or talk about our shared passion for what business and capitalism can and must become again. Years ago, I sent Bob an email in which I made him a promise. What I didn't know was that Bob had that email printed to hang on the wall of his office. "There's no force strong enough to pry me from your side," I wrote. "I am with you always. I will carry your torch for decades to come, and when the time is right, I will, in turn, pass it on to another. Our impact will last generations beyond us. This is what we must plan for." And it's with that promise in mind that I wanted to release the full conversation I had with Bob from the time we spent together in Phillips. I want as many people as possible to hear him and his message. It will, I promise, inspire you. Thank you, Bob. I miss you, and I love you. Bob, what a treat... Ooh, there's a big bee. Big wasp. Let's move the wasp.
- BCBob Chapman
[laughs] He wants to be in the show. He wants to be in the show. [laughs] Wasp, wasp gone.
- SSSimon Sinek
Bob, when I walked back in here, back in Phillips, Wisconsin, the flood of memories, the flood of emotions... I've been here a few times over the years, but I haven't been back for probably six or seven years. And I remember when you and I first met in, whatever it was, 15 years ago, you told me about what you'd built, this amazing business where people care about each other, and it's such a treat to come back and talk to you in the very place where you took me on, on my first tour to see it. I'm so curious, like, when, when you meet people and they say to you sort of, "Bob, what have you built? What's your business?" How do you talk about this?
- BCBob Chapman
Well, as you know, my first half of my career was very traditional about management, financial results, and growth,
- 5:23 – 8:05
Bob's Revelation: Seeing People as Somebody's Precious Child
- BCBob Chapman
and through the series of revelations I went through where the lens through which I saw people, 'cause I saw them as machinists, labor, union members, office people, people working on the floor, all the traditional ways we talk about it, and the lens was reversed, and I saw them as somebody's precious child that's been placed in my care, everything changed for me. So the lens through which you see people affects the way you treat people. Because I was raised that you need people to achieve results, and when you don't need them anymore, you let them go. So the revelations I went through that changed the way I see people, so the lens was- Clearly seeing, if you see people as somebody's precious child, it profoundly affects y- your leadership style. My major responsibility to people in our company is to give them a grounded sense of hope for the future. They can trust in my care. I take that incredibly, profoundly seriously.
- SSSimon Sinek
Y- I know you and I have talked about this, about sort of how being a parent and being a leader are very similar. You talk about how being a parent, this child is brought into your life, and you're responsible for its growth and its upbringing, and in business, a person is brought into your office, and you're responsible for their growth and their upbringing. I appreciate that the lens for you changed where you stopped seeing people as line items and mechanisms for your success, but rather that you are now responsible for their growth, their success, their happiness, their wellbeing. But how did you learn leadership? It's one thing to say it. It's one thing to read it in a book and be this, this leader who just sort of v- views people as items on a spreadsheet. How did you make the conversion to being the leader you are now? 'Cause a, a lot of people, you know, especially the people who sort of either listen to this podcast or read my work, they're on that journey. You went through that journey. What was it that you were able to make that conversion to be this heartfelt leader rather than just all head and all numbers?
- BCBob Chapman
It was a journey, as you said, and when I realized that day at the wedding that the, all 12,000 of our team members around the world are not functions for my success, they're somebody's precious child who I have in my care for 40 hours a week, it changed everything. And, and a young man asked me about that time, "What is your greatest fear, Bob?" Now, you know me, I'm an eternal optimist, and I had to stop and think, and I said, "My greatest fear is that we were blessed with the message of the way the world was intended to be, where people would genuinely care for each other, and it would be dependent upon me, and I would leave this company, this Earth, and what I'd built would fall apart," 'cause I've seen that happen in churches and companies all over the world. So my greatest fear is that this blessing we've been given would not live beyond my time. So we
- 8:05 – 9:32
Building a University to Teach Caring: The Three Transformative Classes
- BCBob Chapman
began, I got a, had an incredible team around me called the Empowerment Team, you know some of those members, and I said, "How do great religions survive all the time?" You know, this is how we evolved from great re- religions, and we said they articulate their beliefs, which we have in the Guiding Principle of Leadership, and then they have disciples who carry this message forward beyond the founder. 'Cause it's not Bob. We all believe this is the way we should treat each other. So we said, "How are we gonna do that? We can't send people back to universities to learn to be truly human leaders." So this eclectic team with a whiteboard said, "Well, we're gonna create our own university," and they came up with three powerful classes that in hindsight we were blessed with because empathetic listening, which is the most powerful of all human skills, recognition and celebration, how do you let people know they matter in thoughtful, appropriate ways, and then culture of service, serving from it's all about me to actually care about you, so seizing the opportunity and so on. So, you know, it was just kind of this journey and this eclectic team, and we started teaching it.
- SSSimon Sinek
So give me some of the, the principles that you teach. And I know all of the classes that you teach are voluntary. People choose to go through it, and if they don't wanna go through it, then that's fine. But people can see the impact that it has on their coworkers, their, their colleagues and friends when they do go through these classes, which is why I know that there's a good long waiting list for people to get into your classes. What are the core ideas that you teach in the empathetic listening class, for example?
- 9:32 – 16:42
The Healing Power of Listening: Why 95% of Feedback Was About Marriage and Kids
- BCBob Chapman
Well, first of all, one of the things I've learned in teaching this, 'cause again, it, it was our team member, David Weinmer, who came up with the idea 'cause when somebody said, "If we're gonna start a university, we need to teach people to listen," I thought, "Why would we need to teach adults to listen? We all know how to listen," okay? That is the biggest revolution we realized, that we don't know how to listen, okay? We, we're taught to speak, and we're taught to debate, but we're not taught to listen, okay?
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- BCBob Chapman
The divide we have in this country and the world is because we have a lot of people, "I'm right and you're wrong."
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- BCBob Chapman
Okay? That's the world we see it, in politics, between our countries. And so this team came up with this idea that we would teach empathetic listening, okay? Which is, is the most foundational human skill that you can possibly have because you validate the worth of others when you listen to them without judge. Not listening to debate, not listening to respond or judge, simply listening to validate the other person, and when you do that, it still amazes me, Simon, that this eclectic journey we've been on, we were simply trying to change managers into leaders, into disciples, people who would carry this forward well beyond my time. 95% of the feedback, 95% was how it affected their marriage and their relationship with their children.
- SSSimon Sinek
This class was built to help people-
- BCBob Chapman
It was. It was
- SSSimon Sinek
... function better at work, right?
- BCBob Chapman
Yeah, right, right.
- SSSimon Sinek
That they would, that they would communicate better at work.
- BCBob Chapman
We had no idea.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right. Right.
- BCBob Chapman
I thought when you hire somebody, the pay and the benefits was the exchange for their presence, and as long as you needed them, you would pay them, but when you didn't need them, you'd let them go. And this changed everything because what we realized is what people want to know is that they matter, okay? We have a very prosperous economy, but we do not have a healthy economy because we have depression, anxiety, because people don't feel valued, they feel used. So this listening class still amazes me 20-some years later that we've taught all over the world. This is not an American issue, this is a global issue. When you teach people to listen, they tell you the stories of how it improved their marriage and their relationship with their kids. So when we say what's wrong with kids today-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm
- BCBob Chapman
... I say, "Where did they come from?" It came from families where parents probably came home from a job where they don't feel valued. Because of that stress and anxiety, whatever, and concern about their future, probably don't treat their spouse as well as possible. And what do our kids see? They see the behavior of our parents who don't know how to care for each other. They may be in love, but they don't know how to listen to each other. And so it was unbelievable the feedback we got. If your listeners could have heard the thousands of people I've heard around the world who have taken this class from India to Serbia to China, it's a universal truth. The healing power of listening is profound
- SSSimon Sinek
This is such a, you know, we bifurcated the world, right? It's like you have your home life and you have your work life. And we forget that it's not two different worlds. It's one very integrated world because the people who are going to work go back home and vice versa. And so if they go to a place of work where they don't feel like their work matters or they don't feel like they matter, they don't feel like their leaders care about them as human beings, they only see them as means of production, that stress that they carry, of course, has to go somewhere, and it comes in the form of lack of sleep, high blood pressure. It comes in the, you're grumpy, you're short-tempered, and that affects one's own health, but it also affects the health of the family unit. As you said, you know, you come home stressed from work just 'cause you have a, a shitty boss, you know? Not a toxic person, not somebody who's, like, screaming and yelling, just doesn't make you feel like you matter. They just care about your productivity. That stress comes out at home, and that affects kids' grades, kids' self-confidence, and it's an amazing concept. The logic is so simple, and the logic is there, which is-
- BCBob Chapman
It has to be simple 'cause it's occurred to me. It has to be simple [laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs] Which is if you're teaching these people how to listen, empathetic listening, so that they can better communicate at work, those skills are the skills they're going home. Not only do they feel better at work, they're taking those skills and they're raising their kids better. It's having a-- I mean, that a good job and a good place to work is good for my family occo- occurs to nobody.
- BCBob Chapman
Right
- SSSimon Sinek
And that a company would say, "Come work for us. It's good for your family other than just the money we're gonna pay you," 'cause that's usually how we measure if it's good for your families. How much can I provide?
- BCBob Chapman
Well, remember, in my education, in my education, undergraduate accounting, MBA, Pricewaterhouse, then running the family business, I was never taught, never told, never made aware that the way I would run this company would affect people's personal lives other than the compensation and the benefits.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- BCBob Chapman
We think that is the exchange. You give me your gifts, I'll pay you fairly. But the most powerful thing we do to people is validate their worth, and the greatest source of happiness is a good job doing meaningful work with people they enjoy. Back to your point, I get in front of CEOs all over the world, and I say, "You're all worried about the cost of healthcare? You are the problem." Seventy-four percent of all illnesses are chronic. The biggest cause of chronic illness is stress, and the biggest cause of stress is work. Jeffrey Pfeffer at Stanford wrote a book, Dying for a Paycheck, and he doesn't mean anxious to get it. He estimates hundred and twenty thousand people a year die of work-related stress, okay? These things I was never taught, never made aware 'cause it's really about creating economic value, okay? And we thought the pay was human value.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- BCBob Chapman
The real value is feeling valued.
- SSSimon Sinek
Can you imagine if we taught in our MBAs, in our MBA classes that, that, that how you lead will directly affect someone's health and that if you're a bad leader, y- there's a very short chain of logic that you're actually killing somebody? Increase in cortisol hurts the immune system, you know, this slow, steady drip of, of cortisol because of the stress at work. I mean, to your point, which is people don't feel responsible for the lives of the people in their span of care because nobody's connected the dots for them. One of the things I find so remarkable about Barry-Wehmiller, which is that all of your leaders understand that it's not just this mushy, mushy, hippy-dippy stuff that you're doing this, that there's a deep sense of responsibility to the lives of the people who their parents gave you their children to look after.
- BCBob Chapman
Yeah, I mean, seriously, Simon, when you look at the feedback I've had all over the world-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- BCBob Chapman
... again, it's so foundational to the world. We just don't know how to care for each other.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- 16:42 – 20:55
Recognition Done Right: Catching People Doing Good
- BCBob Chapman
question. Cynthia and I had the blessing to raising six kids.
- SSSimon Sinek
Cynthia who-
- BCBob Chapman
My wife.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yes.
- BCBob Chapman
Had the blessing to raise six kids. Because nobody teaches you how to be a good parent, we went to classes, and I'll never forget this one class where this gentleman said, "A key to raising healthy kids is you need to compliment them five times more than you suggest things they could do better." Okay? That really made an impact on me 'cause we tended to, you know, "Why didn't you get your ho- schoolwork done? Why didn't you get home in time for dinner?" And, and said, "Boy, thank you for being down here at dinner. Thank you for cleaning up." So it really impacted me, and I realized in my journey that adults are no different. A gentleman in our plant said to me one time, "You know, Mr. Chapman, I get 10 things right, and I never hear a word. I get one thing wrong, and I get my ass chewed out." And everybody, every time I say this, you just see it like this in the audience because we have a world where we focus on the brokenness, not the goodness, okay? So what we do through our recognition and celebration program, and again, it's not about five years service, you get a plaque. It's about shining a light in the organization, looking for the goodness, holding them, saying thank you in a thoughtful way. There's a skill in recogni-- It's not, "Atta boy, pay raise." It is feelings, behaviors, and impact, and there's a skill, and we're teaching that skill in universities. We have people for 40 hours a week, and when they leave our care, they're inundated with the brokenness of the world. But I've got them for 40 hours a week while they Feel valued, if they feel heard, if we recognize the goodness, because when you recognize the goodness of Mary or Bill, and you do it in a thoughtful way in a group, everybody feels good. So our, our key to our culture is continually looking for the goodness and holding it up and saying, "Thank you."
- SSSimon Sinek
I've heard you say so often we catch people doing things wrong. You, you teach people to catch people doing things right.
- BCBob Chapman
Right, right.
- SSSimon Sinek
What are some of the specific ways that you do recognition, uh, in the company? I mean, in a place like this. It's a factory environment, it's, I mean, it's manufacturing. How do you do recognition here?
- BCBob Chapman
It's very personal. We have basically, it's called the Shine the Light award, and people can submit to us somebody who they feel embodies the spirit of our culture that they want to say thank you to. And it didn't occur to us at the time, but when you actually say to 12,000 people in the world, "Why don't you write us and let us know somebody who thinks of these values?" All of a sudden you get these notes from people all over the world, I mean, from Serbia to China, whatever, and the beauty is they have to stop and think about the goodness of somebody else, okay? Not the number of years of service, not the top sales award, just their goodness, okay? The ramifications, when people see recognized for their goodness, you just feel good, okay? Our goal is when you leave our care for 40 hours a week, you go home with the energy to deal with the brokenness of the world, because you see, you've seen, 40 hours a week you saw the goodness in the world. So it's a skill. Again, it's feelings, behaviors, impact. We actually teach a class on how to do that, and quite often, if we can-
- SSSimon Sinek
On how to give someone a compliment
- BCBob Chapman
... quite often we do, yes, how to recognize the goodness in somebody. So quite often we surprise the person, and their family members come to witness it, and it is profound, the impact, because for a son or daughter or mother or father to see their child recognized for their goodness in front of an organization, you can't even, you can't measure that. This cadence of constantly looking for the goodness in the world, which I wish our media did. Remember the expression in journalism, what bleeds reads. So what do we inundate our country with every day? The brokenness of the world, because that's what they feel creates leaders which creates income for their media. So where do we see the goodness in the world?
- SSSimon Sinek
Let me jump ahead a little bit, which is, you know, I'm sure there are some people who buy into what you're saying, but there are some people who are cynical, that this is all fine and good and hippy dippy when the economy is great, but when the economy dips, you gotta tighten the belt and focus on the numbers and, you know, and we see it all the time, even well-intentioned companies, as soon as, you know, something dips the numbers, the first thing to suffer is the people. They cut the recognition programs. They cut the spending on the leadership programs. They lay people off.
- 20:55 – 23:07
The 2008 Recession Test: Shared Sacrifice Over Layoffs
- BCBob Chapman
Right.
- SSSimon Sinek
You know, it's, it's the first thing we do. So it sounds like these things are all nice to have if you're thriving. What do you have to say to those companies that that's the first thing they cut, people and programs? I mean, what does Barry-Wehmiller do?
- BCBob Chapman
Well, it starts with we have a constitution of our culture, the guiding principle of leadership.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- BCBob Chapman
And the vision is we measure success by the way we touch the lives of people. So we kind of have a constitution that guides us like our country does in terms of the, the responsibility of leadership. So if you embrace that and you end up with an economic situation, which we did in '08, '09, which you've talked about for many years-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- BCBob Chapman
... it opened our mind to a totally different way, so it was shared sacrifice. So as you know, in '08, '09, 'cause our orders dropped by 30%, and I was taught, well, you know, what you gotta do is you gotta let people go.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- BCBob Chapman
Because, you know, that's what, just what you do. It's not personal. It's just what we do. I, I once, as you know, in the Air Force, asked some of the generals, "How do you teach these young men and women to kill?" They said, "We don't. We teach them to take out targets that made bad decisions." They try to dehumanize the hurt they're gonna inflict in bo- dropping bombs. We do that in business. We right-size the company, you know, we organize the company. We gave the shareholders what they want.
- SSSimon Sinek
Reduce head count.
- BCBob Chapman
We dehumanize the impact. Psychological studies show that when people are let go, I walk up to you and say, "Sorry, I know you just bought a house, but I'm gonna have to let you go 'cause we gotta make the numbers work," it is a major failure of stewardship because I tell our people around the world-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- BCBob Chapman
... my primary responsibility as the leader of this company is to have a business model that you feel safe, okay?
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- BCBob Chapman
That you can raise a family, you can have a home, and when people feel safe, you see a dramatic difference in their sense of the way they share, the way they help each other, because they don't, they're not-- There's this cloud over their head, now worry about... Layoffs are a broken part of our society. It means your business model failed. You let people down.
- SSSimon Sinek
I gotta go de- deeper on that. You say if you embrace layoffs, it means your business model failed.
- BCBob Chapman
Yes.
- SSSimon Sinek
Most major public companies, and unfortunately a lot of private companies, but most major public companies have fully embraced
- 23:07 – 26:02
"Layoffs Means Your Business Has Failed"
- SSSimon Sinek
layoffs-
- BCBob Chapman
Sure
- SSSimon Sinek
... as a regular mechanism to balance the books. Have their business models failed?
- BCBob Chapman
Yes. Well, their leadership failed. Remember, very profitable companies, Jack Welch taught us years ago, you can always probably let 5% of your people go and you'll actually do better. Not just to reduce cost, but you know, it's good to kind of take the low performers out. So I was taught from a very early age, layoffs are a positive thing you do for a company 'cause you improve profitability. And, and investment advisors will come to your company and say, "You wanna improve your image in the market? Lay off some people and, and say, 'We're gonna, we're gonna make more money in it.'" So part of it is the investing public rewards companies that do this. Their share price goes up when they lay off people. To me, it should go down because they... I mean, I guarantee you when a board considers, a public company or private company considers a layoff where you're gonna hurt people, okay? You're gonna hurt people. They don't talk about the consequences of those people. It's just bus- so they'll find another job. How many weeks should we pay him for? I've never heard, ever in my 50-year career, ever heard a human way of talking about layoffs, downsizing, but we're taught just one of the things you do, it's not fun, it's not pleasant. So my responsibility to our people Is make sure you're safe in my care, where we can create economic and human value in harmony. And when people feel safe, they will share greater gifts with you, you will attract greater talent. There's no downside to caring.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- BCBob Chapman
Okay? No downside. Some people think it's just about being nice, okay?
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- BCBob Chapman
It's much more profound, like parenting is being nice. Parenting is not being nice, it's being a good steward of this child in your care. Leadership is identical, and part of it is having a safe business model where they can raise a family, they can count on you and put their trust in you, and have a career with you. That is a foundational responsibility, and I've never heard that said before.
- SSSimon Sinek
I think a lot of leaders forget about the ripples, right? Which is they understand that, you know, e- even though they don't talk about it or think about it, the impact it has on people's lives when they get laid off, they also forget about the people who didn't lose their jobs, but they watched their friends get laid off. Now fear is injected into the system. Am I next? You know, and one of the craziest things I've seen is companies a- announce, "We're gonna lay off 20,000 people. We're gonna do 1,000 a week." Uh, and you're just like, how on earth do you think that risk-taking and entrepreneurship and sticking your neck out for the greater good is gonna happen? People are gonna retreat, they're gonna keep their heads down because the unbelievable fear that, that I'm next. Not to mention the fact that it sucks to see your friends get laid off for no fault of their own. It wasn't a meritocracy. And you said boards aren't talking about the impact on the lives of the people they lay off, and they're also not talking about how it'll affect the culture for many, many months beyond that-
- BCBob Chapman
Decades
- SSSimon Sinek
... if not years.
- BCBob Chapman
You know, Simon, some people say to me, "How do you justify this investment, this cost of caring for your people?"
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- BCBob Chapman
"Your university, your classes." I look at 'em, I say,
- 26:02 – 27:53
You Don't Need to Justify Caring: Safety of the Soul
- BCBob Chapman
"I don't need to justify caring. How do you justify not caring?" Because people s- really struggle going from using people to care about people, because, you know, there's a major bridge to cross for most people.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- BCBob Chapman
But I say nobody has to justify safety. In other words, safety glasses, hard-toe shoes, safety fi- No, no company. Why? Because we have workman's compensation insurance, and we wanna manage the cost of it, so it's a cost, okay? So I would say to you, we don't have to justify safety. Why do we have to justify caring? Because this caring is the safety of your soul, that treating that young man or young woman or person in your care as you would want your son or daughter treated. I mean, a lot of people ask me, "What do you do about the people who don't get it?" I said, "You treat 'em like you would want your son or daughter treated if they didn't get it." "Oh, that would be different." I said, "Why is it different? That's somebody's son or daughter you're treating." So the way we see people affects the way we treat people, and if you see them as functions, it's a lot easier to downsize, right size. But if you see them as somebody's precious child who simply wants to know they matter, it profoundly shapes the way you take the responsibility for your business model, how you're gonna deal with the ups and downs of business. And all I can tell you is our culture is attracting unbelievable talent, opportunities to bring other companies together into our family, and our customers love our culture, love our culture. It is inspiring a lot of people because it's the foundation is... I was never taught this. As you know, it occurred through a series of revelations, but caring is contagious.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- BCBob Chapman
When you treat people with respect and dignity, it releases in them the capacity to care for others, and the pride you will get, the healing you will get and, and is, is profound. And so I would say to you, I don't need to justify this because, you know, our company, we've had a 25-year growth in our share price, like 12% compounded for 25 years.
- 27:53 – 29:53
12% Compound Growth for 25 Years: The Business Case for Humanity
- SSSimon Sinek
12% compounded growth for 25 years.
- BCBob Chapman
For 25 in our share price, okay?
- SSSimon Sinek
In your share price.
- BCBob Chapman
Okay, 'cause we have a very technical way of creating share price that emulates the market. And so I'd say to you, we have e- exceeded almost everybody you know for a long period of time. We take a long-term view.
- SSSimon Sinek
So anybody cynical who says, "No, but performance, performance, performance," okay, fine. What you're demonstrating is that your leadership strategy outperforms the market.
- BCBob Chapman
So if you just look at the statistics that you've heard me say, that 88% of all people feel they work for an organization that doesn't care about them, and if you hear the statistic that three out of four people are disengaged in what they're doing, when you look at the 12,000, 5,200 people who work for you, and you know these statistics say that they're doing what they need to do to keep their job. They're not giving you their gifts, and you're sending them home damaged because you were not good stewards of their life. It just changes the view I was taught and I experienced in the first half of my career, and that's why I say business could be the most profound source of good in the world if we simply knew how to care for the people we have the privilege of leading. We have a society right now based on money, power, and position. It doesn't matter how you get it as long as you get it legally, 'cause then you can write a check to, to charity, and they'll have a banquet to celebrate your goodness. They won't ask you how you got your money. They'll celebrate you. And I say to CEOs around the world, the greatest act of charity is not the checks you write. The greatest act of charity is how you treat the people you have the privilege of leading.
- SSSimon Sinek
I have CEOs on here now and then, and, uh, honestly, in general, CEOs are the worst guests, because it's hard to have candid conversations with them. They're very, very media trained. They come in with their talking points. You know, it doesn't matter what I ask, they know how to get their point across. They're gonna tell me about their success. They're gonna tell me about their product. They're gonna tell me about the quality. I mean, I'm sitting here in one of your factories,
- 29:53 – 34:55
"Our Product Is Our People"
- SSSimon Sinek
and not once have we talked about your product, what this factory makes, the quality, that you're outperforming the market, and this is completely opposite than almost every other CEO I talk to.
- BCBob Chapman
Well, Simon, again, it was a couple of years ago that Wash University organizational development professors interviewed me for an hour and a half, normal interview. At the end of an hour and a half they said, "We have never talked to a CEO that never talked about your product." And I sat back and I said, "We've been talking about our product for the last hour and a half. It's our people." Okay? I'm not gonna go to my grave proud of the machinery we built, 'cause we built great machinery. I'm gonna go to my grave proud of the people that built that. It caught them completely off guard.
- SSSimon Sinek
I met you because you reached out to me, um, and, and showed me this magical place. I got to know you, and I decided to write about, uh, this amazing place that you had built in, in, in a book I wrote called Leaders Eat Last. You're sort of the central character in that book, I would argue. And you and I have become friends over the years and, and, and you've been a mentor to me. I've learned a lot about how to improve my own leadership ability from you. What have you learned even about yourself over these past fifteen years? Like the Bob I met fifteen years ago and the Bob now, tell me what's different, what's grown, what's new.
- BCBob Chapman
Well, again, because of my traditional education background, I was totally focused on organic growth and profitability and market share, all the things that you were focused on. That was the first half of my career, and I did well. And I was-- I inherited a business that was challenged, twenty million dollar business, went through my challenging periods, but I grew from it, and I was doing well when these revelations happened.
- SSSimon Sinek
It wasn't desperation or failure that, that-
- BCBob Chapman
No, no, no, no. We were doing very well-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah, yeah
- BCBob Chapman
... at the time. But when you have these revelations about seeing people not as functions but as somebody's child who's placed in your care, knowing that the forty hours you have them will profoundly impact their marriage and their relationship with the kids and their health, it changes everything, so-
- SSSimon Sinek
I get that, but what have you learned over the past fifteen years since I met you? Because you'd already had that revelation when I met you. That's why I met you.
- BCBob Chapman
Yeah, right.
- SSSimon Sinek
I mean, it's, you wanted to show me what you had, had built. In the past fifteen years, 'cause I have an answer. I'll tell you something I've noticed that's different about you since I met you, but I'm curious where, what you think yourself.
- BCBob Chapman
Well, Simon, when you came, we were on this journey.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- BCBob Chapman
And it was just an incremental journey, and you came in, and you saw something that we didn't see. I mean, we thought things were going well, but you amplified our awareness that we had been blessed. And so what I have learned, because since we first met, I've given hundreds of speeches around the world. The Harvard case study, the TEDx talk you did, the book, there's no question as I sit here today, since we first met, that some higher power is using us to show the world the way He meant it to be, where people genuinely care for each other.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- BCBob Chapman
Today, I feel this tremendous calling to take this responsibility of this message I've been blessed with and make sure it lives well beyond my time with voices like yours, your books, your, your talks around the world. So I feel this tremendous sense of obligation. Why would somebody pick a manufacturing company in America that makes machinery to show the world what it should be, okay? Okay, why would he pick a carpenter to, you know, be the father of our Christ? So I would say to you, I feel a profound, and it grows because-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- BCBob Chapman
... the reaction. I mean, I speak in healthcare, I speak in the military-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- BCBob Chapman
... I speak in Congress, I speak in United-- Everywhere I speak, I see the hurt in the world. And so I'd say to you, what has been amplified is, because you've opened the door to the world, how could we have a culture here in a traditional business that the world said, "I've never seen anything like it." How is that possible? I'm just a simple accountant from North St. Louis running a manufacturing company, 'cause we were blessed with a message that could heal the world. And when I e- look today as we talk-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- BCBob Chapman
... the issues we face in the world, I see business as a source of destruction, creating economic value but not human value.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- BCBob Chapman
And, and I feel a profound sense of responsibility with you in our partnership to change the way the world sees its responsibility to people they have the privilege of leading.
- SSSimon Sinek
I really like the way at the beginning of our conversation you distinguish between we have a prosperous economy but not a healthy economy. We have prosperous companies but not healthy companies. They're prosperous because they make money, but they're not healthy because the lives of the people who work in those companies are not healthy as a result of those broken corporate cultures. I like that distinction, and we want our companies to be healthy and prosperous, not healthy or prosperous or prosperous or healthy. I love that distinction. And I, I, I wanna tell the story when I first went on the tour of all your factories and I saw this thing, and I remember saying to you, "I can no longer be accused of being a crazy idealist because what I imagine exists in reality." I remember seeing the magic, and then you introduced me to the culture team that had, that was responsible for these classes and helping you implement what you imagined.
- 34:55 – 36:26
From Selfish to Servant: Simon's Challenge That Sparked a Movement
- SSSimon Sinek
And after I'd seen this tour, and you knew my opinion of what I'd seen, I remember they were all sitting there with big smiles thinking I was just gonna say, "You guys are amazing. You guys are amazing." And they're all waiting with a big smile on their face, and I remember my first comments to your culture team were, "I think you may be the most selfish company I've ever met," I said. And I remember them all shocked. And I said, "Oh yeah, I saw what you built, and it is nothing short of remarkable. And it is incredible what you have done for the lives of, back then, three thousand people." I said, "Meanwhile, there are millions of people struggling at work, and you are keeping to yourselves something that the world would benefit from." And I remember it was on that day you sort of said, "Batter up," and you started on the speaking circuit to share what you'd done. You've written your book, Everybody Matters, to get the word out there. You've set up a consultancy to help companies learn what you're doing. You set up a not-for-profit to bring the listening courses to civil servants around the, the country so that they may benefit from the learning, so you can help policing organizations, ambulances, nurses, firefighters. The, these are the people that you're helping with these, with these courses. It's been an amazing thing for me to watch. The small company that was very insular and doing something amazing, that you, you really are one of the leaders of the, the movement to make business a force for good, for the health of people, not just for the prosperity of people. It's been an amazing journey.
- BCBob Chapman
Simon,
- 36:26 – 38:00
People's Universal Truth: They Want to Know They Matter
- BCBob Chapman
as, as you know While we're sharing this message with your encouragement and looking for people who believe what we believe and show it's possible, and it still amazes me in the work we've done in the last fifteen years. I've, you know, all my talks around the world to every part of the society, nobody debates what you and I are just saying.
- SSSimon Sinek
I know.
- BCBob Chapman
They just have no idea because we have a society that is founded on success is money, power, and position.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- BCBob Chapman
And okay, and so what we're working desperately on, 'cause the long-term cure, we can... I can go out and work with major companies and, and help them learn to care, which we're doing through the Chapman Leadership Institute, major corporations, and the feedback's phenomenal. We're fixing adults, and y- as you know, one day I said, "Why do we need to fix adults?" And I looked, and I said, "Oh my God, our education system is around academic achievement."
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- BCBob Chapman
But we're not teaching as we are in our university human skills, so now we're incredibly dedicated to elevating the purpose of education to create tomorrow's leaders in every part of our society from healthcare to nonprofit to military to government who have the skills and courage to care and, and that means the board of directors. I mean, we just have a society that's built around success is money, power, and position, and until we change that, people want to have successful, and then they get there, and it's not fulfilling. They're not happy. So again, we're kind of self-destructing for economic gain, and we're hurting people in the process, and we're s- destroying the future for our kids.
- SSSimon Sinek
Do you wanna know how I've seen you change since I've met you?
- BCBob Chapman
I've
- 38:00 – 40:00
Bob Has Gotten Softer: The Personal Evolution of a Leader
- BCBob Chapman
gotten older? [laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
Well, not, not, not in spirit. You have the same amazing energy from when I first met you. Um, you are softer, and I don't mean your voice is softer. It took years before I saw you choke up for the first time because of what you were saying, and, uh, I see you choke up more often now. It was always personal, but it's become really personal and, and you're more willing to wear your emotions on your sleeve more than you used to. You used to give me, like, you know, sort of like, "Good to see you, Simon," sort of like a tap on the shoulder, you know? And then it became like a tap on the back, and then it became a bro hug, and now you hug me. You know? You hug me with love, and I've seen that. I felt that. That's gonna ch-- [laughs] that's gonna make me cry. [laughs] Um, I wish leaders took leadership as personally as you do. You know? They see it as a rank or position. They see it as, as power and authority. Um, but they don't take it as seriously as raising a child, and you take taking care of your people as seriously a- as taking care of your children. I mean, it is not a punchline when you say that everybody who works for you is someone's son and someone's daughter. I mean, you deeply mean it. You deeply feel it. I have the pleasure of getting to talk to you when we're off camera, and what people don't understand is this preaching that you do when you're on a microphone, this is how you are all the time. [laughs] I mean, like, "Can we just have dinner?"
- BCBob Chapman
My wife reminds me of that all the time.
- SSSimon Sinek
"Can we just have dinner?" [laughs] It's like, "My God, my God, I heard it." But it's so ingrained in who you are and how personally you take this. It's such a source of inspiration, I gotta tell ya. I know people who turn it on and turn it off, and you can't turn it off. It's, it's core to who you are.
- BCBob Chapman
I always say, "Simon, you can retire from a job, but you cannot retire from a calling."
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- 40:00 – 43:10
You Cannot Retire From a Calling: Carrying a Message That Heals
- BCBob Chapman
I'm sure you can imagine what it feels like when I get in front of crowds all over the world and I see people come to tears, get standing ovations, because h- can you imagine how it feels, b- again, all the talks I've given in all parts of the country, to have the most healing message that people ever heard? I mean, the reaction to our message universally-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- BCBob Chapman
... standing ovation, emotions, because it gives people hope. To think that some higher power selected this kid from North St. Louis with an accounting degree-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- BCBob Chapman
... to show the world the way he meant it to be is profoundly meaningful. I mean, [laughs] I don't know how, I don't know how you don't get emotional when you think, "I'm carrying a message that could heal the world." I mean, how do you handle something like that without emotion? I mean, you can't... It's not an academic feeling. It is right down here, and you can't say things about this message when you get the feedback. The healing power of this is profound, and when you look at the issues we face in this country and the world, but I get this exposure to talk to people all over the world, and I see the same reaction. It's a universal truth in our world that people simply want to know they matter.
- SSSimon Sinek
And the big joke of it all, the big joke of it all is you are one of the highest performing companies in your category. You outperform the markets. Your people love working here. People want their children to work here. You have generations of people working here. I, I, I m- I, I met Lance before. His dad worked here. He works here. His, his kids work here. His daughter-in-law works here. His wife works here. I mean... And it's... There are o- there are other opportunities. There are other places to work. In Phillips, they, they want to work here. They want their kids to work here. Like, to have that level of devotion and love, I talk to people, I walked around today. We talked to some of your folks who th- it is a joy for them to go the extra mile for you. It doesn't feel like a burden or a task. They are grateful to give you more, and this is what is so astonishing to me, that though you don't do it for the business reasons, the connection is so damn obvious. Your people are just better people than in other companies. They themselves are not better, but they are given the opportunity to be their best selves at Barry-Wehmiller, and the company and they are the beneficiaries. Because a profitable company means you can expand and take better care of your people. You can expand the number of classes available. You can invest in, in training, and you can invest in all the nice things because the business model works, and this is the thing that drives me nuts. It drives me nuts that people want ... us to give economic reasons why they should do this rather than like-
- BCBob Chapman
Human reasons, human reasons
- SSSimon Sinek
... I mean, ri- I mean, it's like give me an economic reason why I should be good to my child. If I'm good to my child, will my child increase their earning potential? You know, why not just raise a good kid and see what happens? Like, inherently we know that. I, and to think that it's different here, and you're right, the level of dehumanization, you're 100% right, and you, we see it in our nation, right? When we dehumanize the other,
- 43:10 – 46:01
Heart Counts, Not Head Counts: The Language of Humanization
- SSSimon Sinek
when we create names to distance ourselves from that person being a human being, we see it in politics, we see it around our, our, our nation, and when management de- dehumanizes the people who work for them, as you said, the, what's the head count? I know in your company you don't have head counts, you have heart counts.
- BCBob Chapman
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
It's very hard to reduce a heart count.
- BCBob Chapman
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
I'm aware of that language matters. Nobody here says, "My boss," they say, "My leader." You say all the time, "Nobody wakes up in the morning to, to be managed. We wake up to be led." There's no managers here, they're all leaders. I understand that the language matters and, and you're using language that humanizes people, whereas the rest of business is using language that dehumanizes people.
- BCBob Chapman
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
So even when they do do layoffs, they do it in such an inhuman way, where you show up to work and your key card just doesn't work, or you get an email that says, "Sorry, just business. You have no job anymore, effective today." Right? The more we've dehumanized the workforce, the more we treat them as if they're not humans, you know?
- BCBob Chapman
Because remember, Simon, I'm going back to what I said, what I was taught and what I experienced in the world-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- BCBob Chapman
... is the lens that was shaped by that education experiences, people were functions for my success.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- BCBob Chapman
I needed that person, that machinist, that assembler, that accountant for my success.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- BCBob Chapman
Okay? I was a nice guy, we had a nice company, but I saw people as functions for my success. And that day at the wedding when I saw those two precious kids getting married, and I realized that all 12,000 of our people around the world are just like that young man and young lady, they simply want to know they matter, that day my lens reversed and I saw people as somebody's precious child. The way we see people affects the way we treat people.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- BCBob Chapman
If we treat people as labor, as workforce, you know, as union members or as shop people, the language of business is broken. It dehumanizes.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- BCBob Chapman
Okay? And so again, the good news is that we are clearly, with your help, your voice in the world, your book, your voice, your pod-- is the world is, is validating that this is the way to go, and we are on a journey to transform and create a more caring world where people feel they matter, regardless of your role in the company, that you feel you matter. And when you do that, you see this goodness come out of people. Again, I wanna make sure, you cannot ask people to care. You can't go to the CEO of a major company and say, "You need to care about your people," and say, "Sure, I do, but we're gonna have a layoff next week. But you know, I care about them. Okay. But I pay them well, and I got good benefits." We have to change the whole perspective-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- BCBob Chapman
... of our society, where we are stewards of the people we have the privilege to lead. The greatest act of charity is not the checks you write to the Cancer Society or all those other noble causes. The greatest act of charity is how you treat the people you have the privilege of leading.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- BCBob Chapman
That is the greatest, and if we had that, we wouldn't need all the charities to-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- BCBob Chapman
... to fix the brokenness
- 46:01 – 49:38
The Greatest Act of Charity: How You Treat People You Lead
- BCBob Chapman
of the world.
- SSSimon Sinek
You told me a story a bunch of years ago of a wealthy guy who had retired, and he'd made boatloads of cash running a very, very large business, and he came to you for advice on how to be a philanthropist, on how to distribute that money. And you asked him, "What are you proud of?" And he said, "Well, I started this charity where we help inner city kids go to college." And you asked, "Well, how many kids have you helped?" Y- uh, and he says, "So far, 13." And he said, "I'm really, really proud of the work we're doing." And you said to him, "I find it confusing that you're proud of the charity, that you're proud that you helped 13 inner city kids go to college, yet you did it... You accomplished that by destroying the lives of the 105,000 people who worked for you." That, that it never occurred to him that he could be helping people throughout an entire career, rather than saving money and then trying to help a lot fewer people at the end of his career.
- BCBob Chapman
Yeah, this is a gentleman, in traditional terms extremely successful, had contributed $120 million to his alma mater, and had heard me speak and just flew out to talk to me. He was touched by my speech. Good Christian man, good values, good Midwestern values. And again, the g-- what led to that is I said, "What are you proud of in your life?" And he said, "This minority student athletic scholarship program." I had no idea of his company, so I just said, again, "How many people work for your company?" He said, "100,000." I said, "So you really care about five or six people you can help with a scholarship, and you don't care about the 100,000 people?" And he, he virtually leaned back in his chair and he said, "I never thought about that." And again, the one other story that amplifies that is I was giving a speech in a church, a major church, to a luncheon event, and I did it as a favor to somebody. And a gentleman came up to me running a major international organization, he said, "I thought my job was to be the market leader in our industry in the world, and we achieved that. I thought that was my job."
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- BCBob Chapman
"But until I heard you speak, it never occurred to me to care for the 130,000 people in our organization." Then he added, "You've given me a whole different purpose to my role." So again, the biggest message, Simon, is the way we treat people affects the way they go home and live. If we're worried about kids today, what's wrong with kids today, where do they come from? They come from our families, okay? What's wrong with their families? Parents come home from work exhausted, you know? Okay? TGIF, thank God it's Friday. Get out of that place. I imagine a day that with the work we're doing together, we're gonna go to TGIM, thank goodness it's Monday. Get away from the kids, the spouse, and be back to a place where I really enjoy being a part of the team. So I would say to you, the vision that we've been working on for 13 years, we have made tremendous progress in bringing this message to the world, and to make sure that it will not die with me, that it will live on well beyond our time with your work, your book, your talks, and our new book, Everybody Matters, a new edition. We have a chance to shape the world that desperately is looking for hope right now.
- SSSimon Sinek
Well, I promised you, I sent you an email years ago-
- BCBob Chapman
I know. It's framed in my office [laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
I know, I know. I promised you y- years ago in an email I sent you that I will carry your torch [laughs] for
- 49:38 – 51:52
The Promise: Carrying the Torch for Generations to Come
- SSSimon Sinek
all the years I have left, and then I'll pass it on to the next person.
- BCBob Chapman
Thank you for your stewardship.
- SSSimon Sinek
[sighs] I love you. [laughs]
- BCBob Chapman
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
I really do. I'm so grateful for that crazy one-hour lunch that became-
- BCBob Chapman
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
... a three-hour lunch, and this crazy adventure you've taken me on, you know? Because, uh, we've said it 1,000 times to each other, we validate each other's work, you know? I validated your work by saying in my work, th- th- that's the right way, you know? I know I validated your, your theories and your ideas at scale. And you validated my work because it's, I'm just an idiot idealist who writes about these, what could happen, and you made it real. This is a very large company. Make no mistake of it. This is thousands and thousands of employees, billions of dollars worth of revenue, international global company. I mean, this is not some little mom-and-pop corner store that takes care of its people. This is a large operation at scale. And you prove that not only are the people happier and their families are happier and their communities are happier, but it is a phenomenal recipe for prosperity. Healthy people make for prosperous companies, and healthy, healthy people make for prosperous nations. Bob, thank you for being a light, a beacon. Thank you for being who you are. You know, we should probably turn it off right now [laughs] before we both just-
- BCBob Chapman
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
... this is the blubber fest.
- BCBob Chapman
[laughs] Love you. I, I, I see your soul when you talk, you, 'cause we've touched your soul. Not your mind, your soul. This is the way the world was meant to be. And when you see it-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- BCBob Chapman
... you know that this is the way it was meant to be, that we learn to care for each other.
- SSSimon Sinek
Amen.
- BCBob Chapman
Amen. Thank you.
- SSSimon Sinek
As always, thank you for watching. If you liked this episode, please subscribe to A Bit of Optimism for more interesting guests and even more interesting conversations. New episodes drop every Tuesday. But if you'd like more optimism right now, click here to watch another episode. Until next time, take care of yourself, take care of each other.
Episode duration: 51:52
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Transcript of episode O7kQaeP-3I8
