Simon Goes Nuclear with nuclear energy influencer Isabelle Boemeke | A Bit of Optimism Podcast

1. 0:00 – 2:08

   Digital life’s hidden power bill: data centers, AI, and even selfies

   1. IBIsabelle Boemeke0:00

      Before AI, it was cryptocurrency mining.

   2. SSSimon Sinek0:03

      Yeah, yeah.

   3. IBIsabelle Boemeke0:04

      You know, [laughs] we were-

   4. SSSimon Sinek0:05

      Yeah, yeah

   5. IBIsabelle Boemeke0:05

      ... using... The data centers were using the same amount of electricity as a, as a-

   6. SSSimon Sinek0:08

      Yeah

   7. IBIsabelle Boemeke0:08

      ... country in Europe.

   8. SSSimon Sinek0:09

      So, so, so hot tip here, top tip for all you Gen Z and Gen Alphas, if you truly, truly, truly care about global warming and climate change and saving the environment, take fewer selfies.

   9. IBIsabelle Boemeke0:21

      [laughs]

   10. SSSimon Sinek0:23

       [laughs]

   11. IBIsabelle Boemeke0:23

       I'm, I'm sure that's gonna land really well.

   12. SSSimon Sinek0:24

       I don't think that's gonna go over well.

   13. IBIsabelle Boemeke0:26

       [laughs]

   14. SSSimon Sinek0:27

       How good at branding are you? Think you could brand another energy bar to stand out in a crowded market? Or maybe you've got a new energy drink, supplement, or athleisure brand you want us to pay attention to. How about this one? Nuclear power. With events like Three Mile Island, Chernobyl, and Fukushima, it's a heavy task for anyone wanting to change how we think about nuclear energy. Well, Isabelle Boemeke is up for the challenge, and here's the amazing thing: it's working. I was always open-minded to nuclear electricity, not a zealot, but open. Thanks to Isabelle, I now understand the history of nuclear and how it got such a bad rap. And I have to say, I'm converted. Isabelle, along with her social media alter ego, Isodope, has found a very modern way to help us understand the truths of nuclear electricity, how it may be the best solution we've got to tackle climate change, and offer us a reliable source of electricity to power our AI future. She's a Brazilian model and fashion influencer who understands branding, social media, and her generation. And with her new book, Rad Future: The Untold Story of Nuclear Electricity and How It Will Save the World, Isabelle might just save the world. This is A Bit of Optimism. [upbeat music] This episode is brought to you by True Classic. I wear their T-shirts, and have long before they became a sponsor, and it's really cool to see how their company is growing. I'm so curious-

   15. IBIsabelle Boemeke2:08

       [laughs]

2. 2:08 – 5:48

   Why a fashion model became a nuclear advocate

   1. SSSimon Sinek2:08

      ... how a young girl who grows up in Brazil, who, unlike other little girls who dream of being, you know, I don't know, a princess- [laughs]

   2. IBIsabelle Boemeke2:19

      [laughs]

   3. SSSimon Sinek2:21

      ... that you're, you became obsessed with nuclear electricity. Uh, wh- where in a young girl's [laughs] -

   4. IBIsabelle Boemeke2:30

      [laughs]

   5. SSSimon Sinek2:30

      Where in a young girl's, you know, upbringing, you know, do you discover n- nuclear plants?

   6. IBIsabelle Boemeke2:38

      I remember being about six years old and just [laughs] yeah.

   7. SSSimon Sinek2:40

      Are you serious?

   8. IBIsabelle Boemeke2:41

      No, of course not.

   9. SSSimon Sinek2:42

      Oh, okay. All right. [laughs]

   10. IBIsabelle Boemeke2:44

       [laughs]

   11. SSSimon Sinek2:44

       My, Bar- my Barbie nuclear power plant?

   12. IBIsabelle Boemeke2:47

       Actually, I, what I'm about to tell you is probably boring because I did grow up with Gisele Bündchen as the Brazilian icon.

   13. SSSimon Sinek2:54

       Right.

   14. IBIsabelle Boemeke2:55

       And-

   15. SSSimon Sinek2:55

       The supermodel

   16. IBIsabelle Boemeke2:56

       ... she was, yes, the b- I mean, I think she was categorized as an ubermodel, which is, goes beyond the supermodel.

   17. SSSimon Sinek3:03

       It's higher than supermodel?

   18. IBIsabelle Boemeke3:04

       It's a, it's, there is a whole-

   19. SSSimon Sinek3:05

       It's like a supercar and a hypercar, you have a-

   20. IBIsabelle Boemeke3:06

       Yeah, totally. There is a whole-

   21. SSSimon Sinek3:07

       What makes, what makes a, a, a, a, a supermodel an ubermodel? And what's a-

   22. IBIsabelle Boemeke3:13

       I believe the earnings.

   23. SSSimon Sinek3:15

       Oh.

   24. IBIsabelle Boemeke3:16

       I believe at the peak of her career, Gisele was making, like, $42 million a year-

   25. SSSimon Sinek3:21

       My goodness

   26. IBIsabelle Boemeke3:21

       ... and the second top model was making something like 16. It was just the, the gap between her-

   27. SSSimon Sinek3:28

       Wow, okay

   28. IBIsabelle Boemeke3:28

       ... and every other supermodel was gigantic.

   29. SSSimon Sinek3:30

       All right. Okay, so, so, you, you, you-

   30. IBIsabelle Boemeke3:32

       So I grew up with Gisele being-
3. 5:48 – 8:22

   The tweet that started it: molten salt thorium reactors and nuclear ‘whisper networks’

   1. IBIsabelle Boemeke5:48

      And that started my, my modeling journey. So I moved to the United States and, and began working as a fashion model, and there is a whole entire chapter of my life that happened there. Until one day, I randomly came across a tweet by a planetary scientist called Carolyn Porco, where she was talking about molten salt thorium reactors.

   2. SSSimon Sinek6:07

      S- say it again. Molten salt-

   3. IBIsabelle Boemeke6:09

      Salt thorium reactors

   4. SSSimon Sinek6:10

      ... molten salt thorium reactors.

   5. IBIsabelle Boemeke6:12

      Yes.

   6. SSSimon Sinek6:12

      Okay. Don't know what that is.

   7. IBIsabelle Boemeke6:14

      I didn't know what that was either, but isn't that a cool name?

   8. SSSimon Sinek6:17

      Good name.

   9. IBIsabelle Boemeke6:18

      Great name, and I was-

   10. SSSimon Sinek6:19

       Good name for Star Trek

   11. IBIsabelle Boemeke6:20

       ... and I was just curious about it. I was like, "Wait, what is a molten salt thorium reactor?" To your point, but also it was interesting that this female scientist was speaking positively about nuclear. So I did what most people would do in that place. I went on Google, and I typed molten salt thorium reactor, and everything that came up was just way beyond my understanding, so I couldn't understand the technology.

   12. SSSimon Sinek6:45

       Mm-hmm.

   13. IBIsabelle Boemeke6:46

       But it was s- it did something to my brain, where every time I talked to somebody who was working in energy or concerned about climate change, I would say, "Have you heard of molten salt thorium reactors?" And they would say, "No, but let me tell you about nuclear." And then they would kind of whisper behind closed doors or, or like it, they would just be very weird about it and say, "You know, nuclear is way safer than people think. We need it to solve climate change, but people absolutely hate it."

   14. SSSimon Sinek7:18

       Mm-hmm.

   15. IBIsabelle Boemeke7:20

       And that in itself was also so odd and, and interesting because why would it be that a technology that's necessary, that is safe, is hated, right?

   16. SSSimon Sinek7:31

       Yeah.

   17. IBIsabelle Boemeke7:32

       So again, just for many, many years, that was-

   18. SSSimon Sinek7:34

       I mean, we, we, yeah, I mean, people, people are afraid of nuclear power. They're afraid of nu- when they hear the word nuclear-

   19. IBIsabelle Boemeke7:39

       Yes

   20. SSSimon Sinek7:40

       ... like unless you're absolutely schooled in it, which most of us are not-

   21. IBIsabelle Boemeke7:45

       Mm-hmm

   22. SSSimon Sinek7:45

       ... when you hear it, you're just like, "Eh," you know, and then you remember like Three Mile Island or, or Fukushima, and then you're like, "I don't know. I don't know. It seems dangerous," right? You're right.

   23. IBIsabelle Boemeke7:54

       Totally.

   24. SSSimon Sinek7:55

       It has a bad brand.

   25. IBIsabelle Boemeke7:56

       It just has this-

   26. SSSimon Sinek7:56

       And so to the point where these scientists are like, "Come here," it's like they're, they're pushing drugs, like, "Come here. Nuclear, it's all about nuclear."

   27. IBIsabelle Boemeke8:02

       Right. Well, they, they wouldn't say it's all about nuclear, but it was, it was almost like they were terrified to even admit that it was a solution to climate change.

   28. SSSimon Sinek8:10

       Okay.

   29. IBIsabelle Boemeke8:11

       And I don't know if they were terrified or, or if they were just hopeless at that point.

   30. SSSimon Sinek8:16

       Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
4. 8:22 – 10:08

   Climate despair to action: 2019 fires and committing to learn nuclear

   1. IBIsabelle Boemeke8:22

      So that also stuck with me, like why would an interesting thing... I, Brazil turns out to be a very anti-nuclear country. I didn't know that growing up. I don't have any memories of hearing even people talk about nuclear, so I didn't have that perception myself. But again, just a curiosity, this was back in like 2015, 2016, and then 2019 happens-

   2. SSSimon Sinek8:47

      Mm-hmm

   3. IBIsabelle Boemeke8:48

      ... and I see the fires in Australia-

   4. SSSimon Sinek8:51

      Mm

   5. IBIsabelle Boemeke8:51

      ... in the Amazon, and in California as well.

   6. SSSimon Sinek8:53

      Mm-hmm.

   7. IBIsabelle Boemeke8:55

      And I was just depressed about the state of the world. Like you grew up with climate change, right? You, do you remember worrying about climate change as-

   8. SSSimon Sinek9:07

      No.

   9. IBIsabelle Boemeke9:08

      No. I grew up learning about it in school and so on, and I was worried, but it also f- it, it always felt like a future problem, you know?

   10. SSSimon Sinek9:17

       Mm-hmm.

   11. IBIsabelle Boemeke9:17

       "Oh, this thing, it's happening. We're gonna figure it out. The adults in the room has, have gotten it."

   12. SSSimon Sinek9:22

       Mm-hmm.

   13. IBIsabelle Boemeke9:24

       And I remember when I saw those fires, realizing for the first time that, no, we have not made enough progress in solving this problem, and as a matter of fact, it's getting worse.

   14. SSSimon Sinek9:34

       Mm-hmm.

   15. IBIsabelle Boemeke9:36

       I just felt completely hopeless about the state of the world. And as I started looking into solutions for climate change, I came across nuclear again, and I was like, "Oh, this is interesting. Let me now dedicate the time to really understand the technology."

   16. SSSimon Sinek9:53

       Mm-hmm.

   17. IBIsabelle Boemeke9:56

       And I think everybody who has misconceptions about nuclear or who doesn't know anything about it, when they start reading, they come out the other side-

   18. SSSimon Sinek10:04

       Right

   19. IBIsabelle Boemeke10:05

       ... feeling like they found Jesus or something.

5. 10:08 – 15:53

   Inventing ‘Isodope’: influencer strategy, translation, and a 10‑day fast origin story

   1. SSSimon Sinek10:08

      When did Isodope show up?

   2. IBIsabelle Boemeke10:09

      [laughs] So I had-

   3. SSSimon Sinek10:13

      'Cause you, you became sort of like a self-appointed nuclear evangelist, but you didn't-

   4. IBIsabelle Boemeke10:17

      Influencer.

   5. SSSimon Sinek10:17

      Huh?

   6. IBIsabelle Boemeke10:18

      Influencer, yeah. [laughs]

   7. SSSimon Sinek10:18

      Sorry, influencer. They used to be evangelists. Now they're influencers.

   8. IBIsabelle Boemeke10:23

      [laughs]

   9. SSSimon Sinek10:23

      Um, uh, uh, nuclear influencer, and basically s- sort of Max Headroom style, making this sort of... You created a whole persona talking about the benefits and trying to help improve the brand of nuclear, right?

   10. IBIsabelle Boemeke10:39

       Yeah, so I came out the other side thinking, "Oh my God, okay, everything people think they know about nuclear is completely wrong."

   11. SSSimon Sinek10:46

       Right.

   12. IBIsabelle Boemeke10:47

       When you talk about the accidents, people think millions of people died from nuclear accidents. That's absolutely not true, and then every single thing that people have this misconception about is completely wrong.

   13. SSSimon Sinek10:57

       Mm-hmm.

   14. IBIsabelle Boemeke10:58

       And so I was faced with that, and I was like, "Okay, maybe this is the role I can play in helping solve the climate crisis-"

   15. SSSimon Sinek11:05

       Right

   16. IBIsabelle Boemeke11:05

       ... as absurd as it sounds, is I can translate all of this information that's readily available into something that people want to consume. So I'm looking at that, and I'm thinking, "Okay, I have this, like very odd skill set," which came from modeling, which is like branding and, and making sure I can sell something, right?

   17. SSSimon Sinek11:24

       Influencing.

   18. IBIsabelle Boemeke11:25

       Influencing.

   19. SSSimon Sinek11:26

       Yeah.

   20. IBIsabelle Boemeke11:26

       I have somewhat of a social media platform. Not huge-

   21. SSSimon Sinek11:28

       You're the right generation

   22. IBIsabelle Boemeke11:28

       ... but something. Yes. So how can I now get all of this information that's in my brain into a medium that young people can relate to and are interested in, in, you know, engaging with?

   23. SSSimon Sinek11:42

       Right.

   24. IBIsabelle Boemeke11:44

       So I went on a, a 10-day fast. That's a true story. [laughs] You didn't know about this.

   25. SSSimon Sinek11:51

       Like a hunger fast?

   26. IBIsabelle Boemeke11:52

       Yes, like a fast.

   27. SSSimon Sinek11:53

       A hunger protest?

   28. IBIsabelle Boemeke11:55

       N- not a hunger pro- [laughs]

   29. SSSimon Sinek11:57

       Why? Why did you do that?

   30. IBIsabelle Boemeke12:00

       Well, this was a-
6. 15:53 – 19:42

   The real ‘original sin’: nuclear’s brand was born in war

   1. SSSimon Sinek15:53

      Okay? 'Cause, uh, when you were, when you started writing your book, you came over. We, we worked together a little bit on it. And, um, I learned something from your book that blew my mind, and I find it absolutely fascinating-

   2. IBIsabelle Boemeke16:10

      Mm-hmm

   3. SSSimon Sinek16:10

      ... which is the actual reason why nuclear power has such a bad brand.

   4. IBIsabelle Boemeke16:17

      Mm. I know what you... Yeah.

   5. SSSimon Sinek16:20

      It's so interesting.

   6. IBIsabelle Boemeke16:21

      Right.

   7. SSSimon Sinek16:22

      Okay.

   8. IBIsabelle Boemeke16:22

      Yeah.

   9. SSSimon Sinek16:23

      Why does nuclear power have such a bad brand?

   10. IBIsabelle Boemeke16:28

       There are several reasons, but the number one reason-

   11. SSSimon Sinek16:31

       Yes

   12. IBIsabelle Boemeke16:31

       ... and that's the original sin, what I call-

   13. SSSimon Sinek16:33

       Yeah

   14. IBIsabelle Boemeke16:35

       ... is that nuclear fission was discovered in 1938 in Germany.

   15. SSSimon Sinek16:42

       There you go.

   16. IBIsabelle Boemeke16:43

       Full stop.

   17. SSSimon Sinek16:44

       Stop, exactly.

   18. IBIsabelle Boemeke16:45

       [laughs] There is nowhere-

   19. SSSimon Sinek16:48

       The, the-

   20. IBIsabelle Boemeke16:48

       Nowhere... I mean, I guess there are other moments in history, but this was one of the moments in history-

   21. SSSimon Sinek16:53

       Yeah

   22. IBIsabelle Boemeke16:53

       ... that that discovery just was the worst possible time.

   23. SSSimon Sinek16:57

       Worst place.

   24. IBIsabelle Boemeke16:58

       Worst place.

   25. SSSimon Sinek16:59

       Worst time.

   26. IBIsabelle Boemeke16:59

       Worst time.

   27. SSSimon Sinek16:59

       So just, I just need to, I just need to underscore this. So of course human beings are working on better sources of energy, more reliable sources of energy since we figured out electricity and energy, right?

   28. IBIsabelle Boemeke17:10

       Mm-hmm.

   29. SSSimon Sinek17:11

       And they figure out nuclear fusion.

   30. IBIsabelle Boemeke17:14

       Fission.
7. 19:42 – 21:17

   Early pro-nuclear messaging: ‘Atoms for Peace’ and Disney’s nuclear future

   1. IBIsabelle Boemeke19:42

      Well, yeah, and the, and the US government in the fi- in the early '50s really tried to push for nuclear electricity.

   2. SSSimon Sinek19:49

      Yeah.

   3. IBIsabelle Boemeke19:50

      So President Eisenhower gave this famous speech at the UN, um, Assembly General called Atoms for Peace, where he talked about how obviously we had developed these weapons, but it was time to use atomic energy for peaceful purposes only.

   4. SSSimon Sinek20:04

      Yeah.

   5. IBIsabelle Boemeke20:04

      So that's electricity, that's agriculture, medicine, obviously, like radiation therapy is also nuclear-

   6. SSSimon Sinek20:09

      There's another word that's got a bad brand, atomic.

   7. IBIsabelle Boemeke20:11

      Right.

   8. SSSimon Sinek20:11

      Right.

   9. IBIsabelle Boemeke20:13

      Yeah, even though it's related, just related to atoms.

   10. SSSimon Sinek20:14

       Atoms, right.

   11. IBIsabelle Boemeke20:14

       But again, it's the bond.

   12. SSSimon Sinek20:15

       Atom bomb, right.

   13. IBIsabelle Boemeke20:18

       So, so the Atoms for Peace speech kind of kick-starts, you know, this whole campaign to promote the peaceful uses of nuclear.

   14. SSSimon Sinek20:26

       So, so Eisenhower was the OG nuclear electricity influencer.

   15. IBIsabelle Boemeke20:30

       Yes. [laughs]

   16. SSSimon Sinek20:32

       [laughs]

   17. IBIsabelle Boemeke20:32

       I'd say a lot more influential probably, but yeah. [laughs] And what, what's so fascinating as well is even Walt Disney got involved in this pro-nuclear campaign at the time. So, uh, for those who have seen their, he made a whole movie called Our Friend the Atom, and in it he explains how nuclear fission works himself.

   18. SSSimon Sinek20:51

       Yeah.

   19. IBIsabelle Boemeke20:51

       Um, talks about what we just talked about. You know, we started with the bomb, but there are all these amazing uses of this technology. And he was so obsessed with nuclear, and he thought nuclear was the future, and to this day, Disney World in Florida has a license to build and operate a nuclear power plant.

   20. SSSimon Sinek21:07

       No kidding.

   21. IBIsabelle Boemeke21:08

       Yes. He wanted to power Disneyland with nuclear. He never was able to fulfill that, but you know, he applied for a license and so on.

8. 21:17 – 25:45

   Three Mile Island: the incident that scared America off nuclear

   1. SSSimon Sinek21:17

      And the funny thing is, is like, so, so then we have... Okay, so we have, we have n- th- nuclear power exists here and there. We've had a few significant accidents, the three that I mentioned, Three Mile Island-

   2. IBIsabelle Boemeke21:29

      Mm-hmm

   3. SSSimon Sinek21:30

      ... which is when? When did that one happen?

   4. IBIsabelle Boemeke21:31

      '79.

   5. SSSimon Sinek21:32

      '79.

   6. IBIsabelle Boemeke21:33

      1979.

   7. SSSimon Sinek21:33

      So that one happened in '79. We had, uh, Chernobyl in 80-

   8. IBIsabelle Boemeke21:38

      '87

   9. SSSimon Sinek21:38

      ... '87, and then we had Fukushima in-

   10. IBIsabelle Boemeke21:41

       2011

   11. SSSimon Sinek21:41

       ... 2011. Okay, let's go through them, right? And those are, those are just the, uh, those are the big famous ones. I'm su-

   12. IBIsabelle Boemeke21:47

       Mm-hmm.

   13. SSSimon Sinek21:48

       Yeah, I mean, okay, so-

   14. IBIsabelle Boemeke21:49

       Which by the way, just like to, to pause there.

   15. SSSimon Sinek21:52

       Yeah.

   16. IBIsabelle Boemeke21:53

       Imagine any other technology that has existed for 70 years-

   17. SSSimon Sinek21:58

       Yeah

   18. IBIsabelle Boemeke21:58

       ... and all you can point to is three accidents.

   19. SSSimon Sinek22:02

       Well, yes, I hear you. Yes, statistically, that's true, but I think like many things, they're big, they're significant, and they get a lot of news-

   20. IBIsabelle Boemeke22:11

       Mm-hmm

   21. SSSimon Sinek22:11

       ... coverage, so-

   22. IBIsabelle Boemeke22:12

       Like airplane crashes.

   23. SSSimon Sinek22:13

       Like airplane crashes, so they sometimes feel bigger than they are.

   24. IBIsabelle Boemeke22:17

       Mm-hmm.

   25. SSSimon Sinek22:17

       So what happened at Three Mile Island?

   26. IBIsabelle Boemeke22:20

       So Three Mile Island was the first big incident. It wasn't n- it wasn't even an accident. It was an incident.

   27. SSSimon Sinek22:27

       Mm-hmm.

   28. IBIsabelle Boemeke22:27

       It was the biggest nuclear incident in the United States. People say the biggest and the most catastrophic.

   29. SSSimon Sinek22:34

       Mm-hmm.

   30. IBIsabelle Boemeke22:35

       And when you say that, you probably imagine, oh my God, people died, lots of people got sick.
9. 25:45 – 33:55

   Chernobyl: design flaws, Soviet secrecy, and the gap between myth and reality

   1. SSSimon Sinek25:45

      So now let's flash-forward to Chernobyl.

   2. IBIsabelle Boemeke25:48

      So then you flash forward to Chernobyl. So obv- by the way, there it's like, okay, nuclear's too dangerous, even though nobody died, right-

   3. SSSimon Sinek25:55

      Okay

   4. IBIsabelle Boemeke25:55

      ... from this accident.

   5. SSSimon Sinek25:56

      So, so politics, bad timing with movies, Hollywood.

   6. IBIsabelle Boemeke25:59

      Yeah.

   7. SSSimon Sinek26:00

      Close association with military.

   8. IBIsabelle Boemeke26:01

      Yeah.

   9. SSSimon Sinek26:01

      Keep going.

   10. IBIsabelle Boemeke26:02

       So then we move to Chernobyl-

   11. SSSimon Sinek26:04

       Right

   12. IBIsabelle Boemeke26:04

       ... which was a completely different accident. This is a completely different reactor design. This was a design that didn't have what we call a containment dome, which is a big concrete and steel house that stays over the reactor, so in case there is an accident, radiation doesn't go into the environment.

   13. SSSimon Sinek26:21

       It's, it's a safety precaution.

   14. IBIsabelle Boemeke26:21

       It's a safe- yes. Um, it had a bunch of design flaws, and it was also obviously operating in the Soviet Union, which wasn't known for being transparent.

   15. SSSimon Sinek26:32

       [laughs] Right.

   16. IBIsabelle Boemeke26:33

       And, and the reactor op-

   17. SSSimon Sinek26:35

       Understatement.

   18. IBIsabelle Boemeke26:36

       [laughs] Yeah, understatement. And the reactor operators were- weren't really informed of the design flaws. I'm gonna skip over, like, 1,000 pages of complicated nuclear physics here, but basically, the reactor exploded, and with the explosion, the core also caught on fire, and so it's just releasing radioactivity into the air. Now, after the accident happened, for days they didn't warn the population, so people are drinking contaminated milk. They are eating contaminated food. The way they found out about Chernobyl actually was a nuclear power plant in Sweden picked up higher radioactivity levels in the air, and they're like, "That's weird." So they inspected their plant. They realized their plant was totally fine. So this is how cool, like, s- nuclear science is. They were able to trace the type of radioactivity that they were detecting and look at the wind patterns, and they, like, traced it all back to the Soviet Union.

   19. SSSimon Sinek27:34

       Wow.

   20. IBIsabelle Boemeke27:34

       So that's how they figured out that Chernobyl had happened.

   21. SSSimon Sinek27:36

       And then, th- then Gorbachev had no choice but to come clean.

   22. IBIsabelle Boemeke27:39

       Of course.

   23. SSSimon Sinek27:40

       Right.

   24. IBIsabelle Boemeke27:41

       So this was really, you know-

   25. SSSimon Sinek27:43

       I saw the, the HBO TV show, the, the-

   26. IBIsabelle Boemeke27:46

       Yes

   27. SSSimon Sinek27:46

       ... the miniseries.

   28. IBIsabelle Boemeke27:47

       Mm-hmm.

   29. SSSimon Sinek27:48

       Chilling.

   30. IBIsabelle Boemeke27:48

       Chilling.
10. 33:55 – 36:51

    Fukushima: natural disaster, evacuation harms, and radiation realities

    1. SSSimon Sinek33:55

       We-- Okay, so we're going on our little tour of nuclear accidents. [clears throat] Uh, Fuji, uh, f- uh, uh, Fukushima.

    2. IBIsabelle Boemeke34:01

       Right, so Fukushima. So Chernobyl, just to, like, you know-

    3. SSSimon Sinek34:06

       End on that

    4. IBIsabelle Boemeke34:06

       ... make a, conclude on Cher- Chernobyl.

    5. SSSimon Sinek34:08

       Yeah.

    6. IBIsabelle Boemeke34:08

       Yes, it was bad. Not as bad as people think.

    7. SSSimon Sinek34:11

       Right.

    8. IBIsabelle Boemeke34:11

       What's also really crazy about Chernobyl is now, obviously, it's, like, a huge evacuation zone.

    9. SSSimon Sinek34:16

       Yeah.

    10. IBIsabelle Boemeke34:17

        And because people left, a lot of wildlife came back. So it, it became this really weird accidental exercise on rewildling.

    11. SSSimon Sinek34:24

        It's the only place in the world with three-headed deer.

    12. IBIsabelle Boemeke34:26

        [laughs]

    13. SSSimon Sinek34:27

        Kidding. Joke, joke.

    14. IBIsabelle Boemeke34:28

        It's a joke.

    15. SSSimon Sinek34:29

        Joke. It's a joke.

    16. IBIsabelle Boemeke34:30

        Uh, but really you just have all the species that [laughs] have just gone back to their, you know, what was their original-

    17. SSSimon Sinek34:37

        Right

    18. IBIsabelle Boemeke34:37

        ... habitat. Okay, so Chernobyl happens. This is it, right? This is, like, nuclear's done.

    19. SSSimon Sinek34:42

        Right.

    20. IBIsabelle Boemeke34:42

        It's too dangerous.

    21. SSSimon Sinek34:45

        Did freak out the world.

    22. IBIsabelle Boemeke34:46

        It did freak out the world.

    23. SSSimon Sinek34:47

        I was a li-

    24. IBIsabelle Boemeke34:47

        With reason

    25. SSSimon Sinek34:48

        ... I was a kid when that happened, yeah.

    26. IBIsabelle Boemeke34:49

        Germany, for example, I mean, this one-

    27. SSSimon Sinek34:50

        Yeah, Germany used to be big into nuclear, now they're not.

    28. IBIsabelle Boemeke34:53

        They were never s- huge in terms of the population, but after Chernobyl, they were, they were very much done. And then obviously Fukushima happens.

    29. SSSimon Sinek35:03

        Right.

    30. IBIsabelle Boemeke35:03

        So Fukushima was in Japan.
11. 36:51 – 44:22

    Why facts don’t fix fear: branding, emotion, and the economic/AI demand shift

    1. SSSimon Sinek36:51

       Okay. So here's, you know this better than I do

    2. IBIsabelle Boemeke36:53

       Mm-hmm

    3. SSSimon Sinek36:54

       ... which is the problem with branding or in this case misbranding, bad brand, right, is, um, it's emotional

    4. IBIsabelle Boemeke37:01

       Yes

    5. SSSimon Sinek37:01

       And even though, so the f- it's so associated with, with the nuclear bomb was the introduction to the word nuclear, atom or atomic

    6. IBIsabelle Boemeke37:11

       Yeah

    7. SSSimon Sinek37:11

       That, that's how we're introduced to it, which is bombs and wars and mushroom clouds. Then for whatever reasons, you know, well, we know what the reasons, Cold War reasons, the military holds close hold on that technology. We have a couple of accidents, which two of them were human error, and there was bad politics in both of them, or it was associated with politics, right? Uh, Cold War, uh, closed communism and the other one was just, you know, sort of left-wing anti-government sentiment, which fuels this negative brand. And so we, we fear, and fear is an emotion, nuclear

    8. IBIsabelle Boemeke37:50

       Mm-hmm

    9. SSSimon Sinek37:50

       And that word scares the heck out of people, right? Nuclear power scares the heck out of people, that word. And I, I, I, I applaud that you're calling it nuclear electricity

    10. IBIsabelle Boemeke37:59

        [laughs]

    11. SSSimon Sinek38:00

        Um, so facts and figures, and we're saying how many, what actually happened or how many people died-

    12. IBIsabelle Boemeke38:05

        Mm-hmm

    13. SSSimon Sinek38:05

        ... and you know, what the safety precautions are and the technology works and all of these things, and, and, and all we can point to are these three accidents, you know, since the '70s. You know, it, it's all irrelevant. You know, there was no mass hysteria about sharks before the movie Jaws

    14. IBIsabelle Boemeke38:19

        [laughs]

    15. SSSimon Sinek38:19

        But good luck getting people to go into the ocean who are afraid of sharks by giving them statistics about-

    16. IBIsabelle Boemeke38:25

        Yeah [laughs]

    17. SSSimon Sinek38:25

        ... the fact that, and here's a real statistics, more people die from dog attacks every single year than have ever been killed by sharks since we measured, since we started measuring shark attacks, right?

    18. IBIsabelle Boemeke38:35

        Right

    19. SSSimon Sinek38:36

        So again, facts and figures don't help someone go back into the ocean

    20. IBIsabelle Boemeke38:41

        Right

    21. SSSimon Sinek38:41

        So how do... And, and this, and by the way, I'll even go so far as to say that even though I know you, you are, uh, concerned about climate change, ev- for people who aren't, for, you know-

    22. IBIsabelle Boemeke38:55

        Mm-hmm

    23. SSSimon Sinek38:56

        ... it, get off of it because it's, it's a cleaner, more efficient, better form of, of cheaper energy, right? Is that true?

    24. IBIsabelle Boemeke39:05

        Well, and that's the thing. I'm, I came to it from a climate concern as you, as you mentioned

    25. SSSimon Sinek39:10

        Right

    26. IBIsabelle Boemeke39:11

        Lots of people-

    27. SSSimon Sinek39:12

        There's an economic, there's a-

    28. IBIsabelle Boemeke39:12

        ... don't believe in climate change

    29. SSSimon Sinek39:13

        There's an e- there's an economic argument to be made here as well. Yes?

    30. IBIsabelle Boemeke39:17

        Not in the United States at the moment
12. 44:22 – 47:12

    Sponsor break: True Classic and building culture through trust

    1. SSSimon Sinek44:22

       Yeah, exactly. I've g- I've got it all figured out. I invited Ryan Bartlett, the founder of our sponsor, True Classic, to sit down for a conversation. We call this an ad with authenticity. The reason the product works so well is because it's, what people can't see is that you have a culture that does the exact same s- thing without the T-shirt.

    2. SPSpeaker44:45

       Yeah. The culture's a hard one, as you know.

    3. SSSimon Sinek44:47

       Mm-hmm.

    4. SPSpeaker44:47

       Like, to build and ramp up over time and to get just A players that are just crushing it and have the right DNA and buy into the system, and it's, it takes a long time to get it great.

    5. SSSimon Sinek44:59

       Mm-hmm.

    6. SPSpeaker44:59

       It's taken us five years. I mean, early on it was just a bunch of ragtag entrepreneurs throwing stuff together, making things work and, and being scrappy. But now, when I interview somebody, I'm usually, like, the last interview.

    7. SSSimon Sinek45:10

       Mm-hmm.

    8. SPSpeaker45:10

       They've already made it by the time they get to me, by the way, 'cause, like, I'm not really part of it anymore. I'm, like, the last guy. They're like, "What a team. This is incredibly impressive." And I'm like, "Listen, it's, it, it's not me. Like, they're just great in their own right. I'm lucky to have them. They really are fantastic." I mean, I sit in these rooms with these executives and I'm just like, "Who, who [laughs] am I?" I'm just this broke musician from the Midwest, like, sitting amongst these Ivy League killers. Like, how did I end up here? You know, I have a lot of those moments where I'm just, I feel very, like, I don't even deserve to be in this room, honestly. Like, these people are so much smarter than me.

    9. SSSimon Sinek45:46

       I'll pay you another compliment. So based on the story of the hiring, right? Um, I know of another company and another famous business owner, I'll leave the name out because people know who this person is. Um, it was a true story. It was either an intern or entry level, somebody very, very junior was applying for a job, and they think they had something like 7 or 11 interviews, like a preposterous number of interviews.

    10. SPSpeaker46:08

        Mm-hmm.

    11. SSSimon Sinek46:08

        Right? And the final interview was with the CEO, right? And everybody said yes. Yes, yes, yes. This kid was amazing. Everybody loved this kid, you know? The CEO meets them, the answer's no. Kid doesn't get a job. What's the point of having all those interviews when one person undermines the authority-

    12. SPSpeaker46:27

        Mm-hmm

    13. SSSimon Sinek46:27

        ... of everybody in the value chain, right? It's worth noting that this company was plagued with office politics.

    14. SPSpeaker46:33

        Mm.

    15. SSSimon Sinek46:34

        And despite what the CEO may say publicly about how great business was and what kind of leader they were or thought they were, I know for a fact that this company was plagued with office politics. And office politics are people attempting to assert control wherever they can because they don't feel like they have any control. That's what office politics are. And the fact that you have somebody interviewing for a job at your company, and they get all the way up to you, and you view yourself as simply a rubber stamp-

    16. SPSpeaker47:03

        [laughs]

    17. SSSimon Sinek47:03

        ... that you just trust your team, that if your team likes this person, then you're just happy to meet them. And it's proof of how you're leading your company and the culture you've built. It's proof.

13. 47:12 – 54:52

    Energy abundance vs austerity: nuclear as ‘true progress’

    1. IBIsabelle Boemeke47:12

       Okay, but here's a point I like to make, that I-

    2. SSSimon Sinek47:15

       [laughs]

    3. IBIsabelle Boemeke47:16

       A lot of people say that, you know, we can't rely on technological solutions for climate change, that the only true way to solve this problem is to use way less energy. And I get mad at that argument-

    4. SSSimon Sinek47:33

       Yeah

    5. IBIsabelle Boemeke47:33

       ... because it's always people who grew up in an energy rich society.

    6. SSSimon Sinek47:38

       Yeah.

    7. IBIsabelle Boemeke47:38

       And they don't understand the huge privilege that it is to grow up with air conditioning, a laundry machine, a dishwasher, heating, and just in general in a society that has access to large amounts of energy. You have better hospitals, better roads, better infrastructure in general.

    8. SSSimon Sinek47:56

       Right, right.

    9. IBIsabelle Boemeke47:57

       And one of the arguments that I also hate, you know, one of the reasons why I also hate this argument is that who gets to decide what, what's a good use for energy, right?

    10. SSSimon Sinek48:09

        Right.

    11. IBIsabelle Boemeke48:09

        So some people love to, like, the, the, their life is traveling and going to a different country and visiting different cultures. So who is going to decide how much energy everybody can use h- to, for what?

    12. SSSimon Sinek48:25

        Yeah, austerity is not, is, is-

    13. IBIsabelle Boemeke48:26

        Auste-

    14. SSSimon Sinek48:26

        ... is not the best-

    15. IBIsabelle Boemeke48:27

        But by the way, I know this sounds crazy, this is a, a serious proposal that a lot of people have-

    16. SSSimon Sinek48:31

        Yeah

    17. IBIsabelle Boemeke48:32

        ... as a solution to climate change. And, and a lot of young people have fallen into that. So I think-

    18. SSSimon Sinek48:37

        So your argument-

    19. IBIsabelle Boemeke48:38

        Mm-hmm

    20. SSSimon Sinek48:39

        ... is not necessarily use less, although we could all stand to be a little more efficient. But your argument is not to significantly use less to solve the problem, which that ship seems to have sailed anyway. Like-

    21. IBIsabelle Boemeke48:48

        Have sailed

    22. SSSimon Sinek48:48

        ... we've known about this forever, and-

    23. IBIsabelle Boemeke48:50

        Totally

    24. SSSimon Sinek48:50

        ... we're all idiots and don't do it.

    25. IBIsabelle Boemeke48:52

        Mm-hmm.

    26. SSSimon Sinek48:52

        Right? It's like when we're bad at saving money, too. We're just bad long-term planners. Um-

    27. IBIsabelle Boemeke48:57

        And once we adopt the technology, it's very hard to go back

    28. SSSimon Sinek48:59

        Or, or unless you have nothing.

    29. IBIsabelle Boemeke49:00

        Right.

    30. SSSimon Sinek49:00

        Like, like if you live in, in the developing world and you have less, you have to use less because otherwise you'll, like, you just don't have it.
14. 54:52 – 59:31

    Big vs small reactors, renewables realism, and what it takes to scale

    1. SSSimon Sinek54:52

       Do you think we'll ever have nuclear reactors at home, mini lu- nuclear reactors to power our homes? 'Cause I've got solar panels on my house.

    2. IBIsabelle Boemeke54:59

       How do they work for you?

    3. SSSimon Sinek55:00

       You know, they get less efficient when they get dirty, which is all the time.

    4. IBIsabelle Boemeke55:04

       Mm-hmm.

    5. SSSimon Sinek55:04

       So like I have to spray them clean every now and then. But, uh, I live in California, so we get a lot of sun, which is great. But I'm, I, my electricity bill every three months is like 30 bucks. I th- I pay connection fees.

    6. IBIsabelle Boemeke55:15

       Oh, that's great.

    7. SSSimon Sinek55:16

       So I pay, I pay zero.

    8. IBIsabelle Boemeke55:19

       Mm.

    9. SSSimon Sinek55:20

       I'm ostensibly zero. I'm basically, I have an electric car that I charge during the day.So I don't even pay for fuel for my car.

    10. IBIsabelle Boemeke55:27

        That's amazing.

    11. SSSimon Sinek55:27

        So yeah, I'm pretty much running on solar.

    12. IBIsabelle Boemeke55:29

        That's awesome. Well, California makes a lot of sense, right?

    13. SSSimon Sinek55:31

        Mainly, mainly 'cause I just wanted to stick it to the man.

    14. IBIsabelle Boemeke55:34

        [laughs] See?

    15. SSSimon Sinek55:34

        No, I'm serious.

    16. IBIsabelle Boemeke55:34

        You would've been anti-nuclear in the '70s.

    17. SSSimon Sinek55:36

        It's, it's, 'cause, you know, 'cause when I bought it, like yeah, I got some tax rebates, but like the amount of money that I'm saving on electricity bills and the amount of money I had to pay to install it, it, it's gonna take a long time to get that money back.

    18. IBIsabelle Boemeke55:46

        I guess.

    19. SSSimon Sinek55:46

        But I love sticking it to the monopoly.

    20. IBIsabelle Boemeke55:50

        I think it's-

    21. SSSimon Sinek55:50

        I just can't help it. I just can't help it. It just, when there's a monopoly-

    22. IBIsabelle Boemeke55:54

        [laughs]

    23. SSSimon Sinek55:54

        ... and, I just am sticking it to the man.

    24. IBIsabelle Boemeke55:56

        But it's w-

    25. SSSimon Sinek55:57

        [laughs]

    26. IBIsabelle Boemeke55:57

        Why would you not want that, right? If you can get electricity from-

    27. SSSimon Sinek56:01

        The sun

    28. IBIsabelle Boemeke56:01

        ... s- the sun that's-

    29. SSSimon Sinek56:02

        Fo-

    30. IBIsabelle Boemeke56:02

        ... hitting your roof-
15. 59:31 – 1:06:18

    What changed: costs, regulation, lobbying—and a measurable brand rebound

    1. SSSimon Sinek59:31

       So why don't we? Is it just bad branding, or is it the electricity? Is it the power, is it the power companies? Is it the, the coal and, and is it the coal, uh, mining lobbies that just don't want to? Why can't they just reinvest in nuclear? I mean-

    2. IBIsabelle Boemeke59:44

       Well, so there was a, there was a, a lot of that, all of that.

    3. SSSimon Sinek59:47

       Yeah.

    4. IBIsabelle Boemeke59:47

       And all of that caused nuclear projects to go way over budget, including overregulation.

    5. SSSimon Sinek59:53

       Ah.

    6. IBIsabelle Boemeke59:53

       And so it got really expensive. And so now the anti-nuclear people say, "Well, you know, I'm not anti-nuclear, but it's, it's too expensive"-

    7. SSSimon Sinek1:00:01

       Oh

    8. IBIsabelle Boemeke1:00:02

       ... when they made it expensive in the first place.

    9. SSSimon Sinek1:00:04

       Do you wanna know another thing where government, uh, where private sector lobbying w- was a stupid decision?

    10. IBIsabelle Boemeke1:00:10

        Mm.

    11. SSSimon Sinek1:00:11

        I don't remember the exact numbers, but, um, the IRS, or the Treasury, sorry, the Treasury had determined that if we... The average lifespan of a dollar bill is one year, and the average lifespan of a coin, uh, is, is 30 years.

    12. IBIsabelle Boemeke1:00:26

        Oh, wow.

    13. SSSimon Sinek1:00:26

        And so they determined that if we abandoned dollar bills and went to a dollar coin instead, we would save billions of dollars a year in printing and, uh, and paper and ink costs, right?

    14. IBIsabelle Boemeke1:00:38

        Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

    15. SSSimon Sinek1:00:38

        Billions-

    16. IBIsabelle Boemeke1:00:39

        Wow

    17. SSSimon Sinek1:00:39

        ... just by going to a dollar coin. But the paper and ink lobby would hear-

    18. IBIsabelle Boemeke1:00:43

        Yeah

    19. SSSimon Sinek1:00:43

        ... none of it, and so we still have dollar bills.

    20. IBIsabelle Boemeke1:00:46

        Are you kidding me?

    21. SSSimon Sinek1:00:46

        So when you... I'm being deadly serious. So when you talk about business getting in the way of progress and saving money, when you talk about, you know, all this desire for efficiency and saving money-

    22. IBIsabelle Boemeke1:00:55

        Mm-hmm

    23. SSSimon Sinek1:00:55

        ... nope, it's the paper and ink lobby is the reason we have dollar bills and not dollar coins, because the government recommends dollar coins.

    24. IBIsabelle Boemeke1:01:04

        That's baffling.

    25. SSSimon Sinek1:01:05

        Yeah. But-

    26. IBIsabelle Boemeke1:01:05

        It makes me so angry

    27. SSSimon Sinek1:01:06

        ... but it, but it's the same argument for-

    28. IBIsabelle Boemeke1:01:08

        'Cause it's the American people paying for this waste

    29. SSSimon Sinek1:01:09

        ... it's American people paying for their dollars, literally.

    30. IBIsabelle Boemeke1:01:12

        Literally.

Episode duration: 1:06:20