Simon SinekSimon Sinek: Building Real Trust in Work + Life | Amsterdam Business Forum 2025 | Full Conversation
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
70 min read · 14,214 words- 0:00 – 4:30
Intro: Being present and combating boredom
- SPSpeaker
[cheering] That was a great ... Oh, you're getting whoops already.
- SSSimon Sinek
Oh, no.
- SPSpeaker
Do you get used to that?
- SSSimon Sinek
It's wonderful.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah?
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
I hope I never get used to it.
- SPSpeaker
No?
- SSSimon Sinek
No. I'm, I'm flattered every time.
- SPSpeaker
Oh, beautiful. Well, listen, I wanna start with, um, getting your energy right because this is the last of, uh, a trip. You, you were previously in Oslo, right? And before that, Helsinki?
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
Um, you know s- uh, many of the topics that have been talked about here on stage inside out, back to front, 360 degrees. How do you stay focused and avoid kind of drifting into autopilot?
- SSSimon Sinek
It's one of the reasons I like doing this. Um, you know, I gave the Start With Why speech for so long, and I love it and I believed in it, but I ... The reason I retired the talk, giving it-
- SPSpeaker
Mm
- SSSimon Sinek
... even though I still live my life based on it, is for that reason. I started having out-of-body experiences when I was on the stage where I was speaking and I was thinking about, like-
- SPSpeaker
Wow [gasps]
- SSSimon Sinek
... my shopping and things like that, and it was just the strangest thing, and that's when I realized if I can't be fully present, then I shouldn't do it. And one of the reasons I love, uh, a conversation and I love talking to an audience is because I have no idea what you're gonna say-
- SPSpeaker
Mm
- SSSimon Sinek
... and I have no idea what they're gonna say.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And so I have no choice but to be, be fully here.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. And, and for people in, in the audience, you know, who also maybe are reaching that point in their careers where they feel like they, they know what they're doing, they know their stuff, uh, what are the signals they should be looking for and how do they fix them? Because, I mean, do they just have conversations with other colleagues of theirs? How do they s-
- SSSimon Sinek
It's such a good question. You know, the ... I've seen this a lot more with senior people than junior people-
- SPSpeaker
Mm
- SSSimon Sinek
... where they actually get bored. They're quite bored with their careers, but secretly they don't wanna talk about it.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Because, you know, the first few deals that they tried to make were difficult, and then they got good at it, or producing a show or making a widget or whatever the thing is, it was hard for a while, and then, then they got good at it.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
It's why- one of the reasons they got senior. Um, and a lot of them either just, they're on autopilot, they like the money so they don't wanna make any change-
- SPSpeaker
Mm
- 4:30 – 7:30
"I no longer like the term vulnerability"
- SSSimon Sinek
No, no, no
- SPSpeaker
... see the energy change in the room.
- SSSimon Sinek
No, I like-
- SPSpeaker
What?
- SSSimon Sinek
I like the concept. I don't like the word.
- SPSpeaker
Okay.
- SSSimon Sinek
Because if I say to leaders, "Be vulnerable", you know, half will be like, "Absolutely", and half will be like, "Eh."
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
'Cause it sounds weak. The word sounds weak, and nobody wants to be weak. So I, I ... A, a friend of mine uses the word, and I really like it, available.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Make yourself available. Be available to admit when you make a mistake. Be available to admit that you need help or ask for help. And we don't build trust with our teams by offering help. We build trust by asking for it. It's a great honor for someone to try something new and try something different.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Um, and I can ... And, and by the way, the, there's ways to admit it. There's ways to be vulnerable. I'm not talking be- talking about sort of like being all depressed about it.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
You have to own the fact that you don't know something or that you're trying something new.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
So for example, you're not gonna come into a meeting and say, "Uh, I decided to try something new. Um-
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
... I don't know how to do this. Uh, it could go in any direction. Um-"
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
Don't do that.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
That's not a good idea. But you can walk into a meeting and go, "Okay, I've decided to try something new. I have no idea how this is gonna go, and it could go in any direction." You own it, and it's the confidence that inspires the people. It's the confidence that you are walking into the unknown, and that's what inspires people to want to help and join you. If you're all depressed about it, they'll freak out, and that's when you get to ask people and they'll raise their hand and jump in with you
- SPSpeaker
And, and what if you're a team member who wants a leader who is more like that, who is more challenging? How do you start that conversation?
- SSSimon Sinek
What do you mean, uh, as somebody who nee- wants somebody who wants-
- SPSpeaker
If you want your boss to, to be that person
- SSSimon Sinek
Oh, to be that person?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
I mean, be the leader you wish you had
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- 7:30 – 9:45
The origins of Simon's books
- SSSimon Sinek
semi-autobiographical, right? So, um, all of my work is the result of me going through some sort of struggle. Um, Start With Why was not an academic or commercial exercise. It was born out of pain. It was born out of loss of passion. My work was good. Superficially, my life was good, and I didn't wanna w- I didn't wanna wake up and go to work anymore, which is very embarrassing
- SPSpeaker
Mm
- SSSimon Sinek
And I hid it. I lied to people that everything was great when everything was not great. It was just superficially great
- SPSpeaker
Mm
- SSSimon Sinek
Um, and it was that loss of passion that sent me on the journey to try and refind my passion. And what worked was I realized I knew what I did, I knew how I did it, but I didn't know why. It worked for me. When you read a great book or see a good movie, you tell your friends, and so I told my friends, and my friends started finding renewed passion in their work, and they said... They asked me if I would talk to their friends. Um, and before you know it, I've got a career talking about this thing called Start With Why. That wasn't the idea
- SPSpeaker
Mm
- SSSimon Sinek
It just kept working. Leaders Eat Last was the same thing. I, I was struggling with trust. I... You know, especially when you start to have a little bit of success, all of a sudden, you know, I've got more friends and all my jokes are funnier, and, uh, and I, I, I freaked out. I had a couple of experiences where I thought somebody was my friend. They weren't. They were working me for some sort of access or something or other, and it, it freaked me out
- SPSpeaker
Mm
- SSSimon Sinek
And simultaneously, I was spending a lot of time with the military, and I would meet people who would give their lives for each other. They would give their lives for people they didn't even like
- SPSpeaker
Mm
- SSSimon Sinek
In business, we don't even like to give, you know, credit to somebody else
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
Um, and I just wanted to be more... I wanted to spend time with people like that
- SPSpeaker
Mm
- SSSimon Sinek
And so I l- literally went to understand. I would... I, I called in all these favors and traveled around to all these military bases just to understand it. I didn't expect it to be a book, but it kept working, and this idea of creating a, a, a circle of safety, psychological trust
- SPSpeaker
Mm
- SSSimon Sinek
... amongst a team, and where trust actually biologically comes from
- SPSpeaker
Mm
- SSSimon Sinek
It's a feeling. Where does that feeling derive from biologically? What are those chemicals?
- SPSpeaker
Describe the feeling to me when you feel fully trusted by someone and when you trust in someone fully
- SSSimon Sinek
Um,
- 9:45 – 14:00
Trusting fully and friendship
- SSSimon Sinek
I think it's the same as love. I think deep, deep, deep trust is the same as love, which is, it's your willingness to bare your soul, um, but it's also your willingness to be able to hold space for another. I think it's... I think it goes both ways, right? Um, yeah. I mean, I'll tell you a funny thing that I've... I'm writing this book about friendship, right?
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
And here's a little observation that I've made that is kind of amazing. We all know that you need somebody in your life, I hope everybody has somebody in their life, at least one person, hopefully more, that in your darkest times when you're depressed, when you're angry, when you need to vent, when you need to just get something off your chest, when you're not at your best, that you can call somebody and they can hold space for you. Like, I hope we have... I hope everybody has at least one of those people in their lives, right? What I found amazing is the number of people that we have in our lives that we can call to brag and say how great we are
- SPSpeaker
Mm
- SSSimon Sinek
... and I did something amazing, is an even smaller number. Think about that for a second
- SPSpeaker
Mm
- SSSimon Sinek
I can call more people with my problems than I can call to say, "I'm amazing"
- SPSpeaker
Mm. And why is that?
- SSSimon Sinek
Right? And I think it's because... And it goes to this thing of trust, right? Which is to hold space for someone who's doing well, and have no jealousy, and have no envy, but to celebrate them like you're their parent
- SPSpeaker
Mm
- SSSimon Sinek
The pride. That's a... That is even more difficult
- SPSpeaker
Mm
- SSSimon Sinek
And I was talking to a friend of mine, great g- great human being, who's, uh, very successful, and I was telling him this observation that I've made, and he looks at me and he goes, "Yeah, I have no one." He's done well in his life, and he keeps it all a secret to himself. He never gets to say, "I made it big today"
- SPSpeaker
But isn't this, uh, just a part of us that also just withholds that? Like, you feel a little bit... I know personally, I find it difficult to take pride in, in my work and, and, and shout that out
- SSSimon Sinek
That's what I'm... Exactly Like, like you want to. Like when, when, when, when something good happens, you wanna tell somebody-
- SPSpeaker
Mm
- SSSimon Sinek
... right? And those friends that you should be able to tell, why is that number smaller than the number that we can feel that we can, uh, uh, uh, uh, go to with problems?
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And I find that astonishing. So when you ask me what is trust, what is love, it's the person who is available for a range of emot- for the emotions, for the full range of emotions that we have as human beings.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Because if I can't open up about all of my life experience to someone, then they're only knowing half of me.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
They're only knowing me in dark times, but I want them to celebrate me like I wanna celebrate them.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Like, I was so honored, a friend of mine sold his business. He made a ton of money, more money than I'll ever see in my life.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And he, he called me up to tell me. I was the first person he called, and I literally couldn't wipe the grin off my face. I was so proud of him.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And the honor, the honor-
- SPSpeaker
That he called you
- 14:00 – 15:50
Confidence vs arrogance
- SPSpeaker
to me, like this sense of, uh, um, not being able to, to talk about openly about, about pride. I'm still struggling to understand why, why won't we let that into our lives?
- SSSimon Sinek
I think we feel guilty. We feel guilty that we've done something good.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
You know, um-
- SPSpeaker
And also worried that it might go away very quickly.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah, maybe we think we're jinxing ourselves-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... or, you know, or maybe we think that it's, you know, it's somehow gauche to... But we're not talking about taking a full-page ad in the newspaper, you know, saying, "I'm great." We're talking about calling someone in private.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
You know? And it, and it's, it's okay to celebrate yourself. I think it's important to celebrate yourself. Um, it's one of the things that gives us confidence, right? To say, "I, I did okay."
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
"I did, I did good." Because don't we want our kids to be able to celebrate themselves? Don't we want our, don't we want our colleagues to celebrate themselves? The people who we're leading, don't we want them to be able to be excited about their accomplishments so we can say, "You did this. You're amazing"?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Like, we want our kids to be able to be okay with that. We don't want them to brag.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
We don't want them to think they're better than other people.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
You know, a healthy ego is the belief that you're good.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
An unhealthy ego, arrogance, is the belief that you're better than others.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
And, um, and I- like I said, I think a healthy human being has a range of emotions and, um, and denying yourself the opportunity to express them is, is missing out.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. And I guess it's also a moment to reevaluate, like, w- yeah, what, what are the things that I'm proud about and, and why, trying to understand really, yeah, why has this meant so much for me, and it's probably often way deeper, um, uh, um, it's got a deeper motivation, deeper reason than, than the superficial one you initially think of.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Um, do you do, do you reevaluate, um, for instance, your why? Do you reevaluate your why? And, and if so, I mean, is this like a daily
- 15:50 – 22:00
Living your WHY and the real meaning of optimism
- SPSpeaker
thing? Is it weekly? Is it-
- SSSimon Sinek
Evaluate? No. Uh, a why is fixed. Our why is fully formed by the time we're mid to late teens, and that's it. It's, you have one why for the rest of your life, and the reason is, is because we are all products of our upbringing. You and I are the sum total of how we were raised.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
You are the way you are y- because of the experiences you had, the people who were in your life when you were a kid.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mine was the same. And now, whether you're living in balance with that or not-
- SPSpeaker
Mm
- SSSimon Sinek
... whether you're making choices and decisions that amplify who you really are, that's a different conversation.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
That's, that's when we talk about authenticity.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right? Whether this is truly you or this is an act.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Um, but there's only one you, so-
- SPSpeaker
But I mean, at the same time-
- SSSimon Sinek
... I don't reevaluate it
- SPSpeaker
... at the same time, you know, we, we heard from-
- SSSimon Sinek
But I do check in with it
- SPSpeaker
... we heard from, uh, Neil earlier, and he was, he mentioned this quote that he loves from, I believe a podcaster called Richard Roehl, like, "Mood follows action." So you can kind of train yourself if you start behaving, if you create a new behavioral pattern, and, yeah, that, that will change your mood, and maybe even ultimately, yeah, why not? Like, the values.
- SSSimon Sinek
I mean, you're also talking about why it's important to have a sense of humor, right?
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Uh, no one can be angry or sad when you're smiling or laughing.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
You can't. It's just impossible. And I think, I think sense of humor is underrated as a leadership skill. Like, in a hard time and a stressful time, to be able to, to crack a joke-
- SPSpeaker
Mm
- SSSimon Sinek
... and make people smile, it's very hard to be angry and it's very hard to be sad, um, when you're smiling. And so I, that's true.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. Um, uh, if even living in your why, um, it, it, it can wear you down, right? It can, you can just... You, you know what you want, it's fixed. Um, uh, I'm just wondering how do you keep optimism alive without crossing the line into, like, um, into LinkedIn sunshine mode where everything is, is, is, is perfect?
- SSSimon Sinek
Uh, it's a good point. Um, I think we have to first define what optimism is, right?
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Optimism is not blind positivity. It's not blind positivity. It's not, "Everything's great, everything's fine." You know, the company's struggling, your team is struggling, and you're like, you think you have to be positive and, and, and s- sunshine because that's what's good for the team. But the reality is that's can be quite toxic, and it can actually make people feel worse.
- 22:00 – 25:00
The power of 8 minutes and being available
- SSSimon Sinek
"How have you been?" Similar to the other story, she goes, "Last week was really bad." I said, "Why didn't you call me?" She goes, "I did." I'm like, "No, you didn't." She's like, "Yeah, I texted you a whole bunch of times." I'm like, "No, you didn't." And so I pull up my phone to prove to her that she never reached out to me and, you know, I have a whole bunch of texts from her. "Hey, how are you? What are you doing?" I'm like, how do I know that that's a cry for help?
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
That's every other text you ever send me.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
And so she read an article, um, she read an article that there was a study done that, that human beings only need eight minutes of attention from somebody to feel not alone. And so we came up with a code, we came up with a code with each other, which is when one of us really needs each other, the other, we're really in a, in a, in a hard place, you text each other, um, "Do you have eight minutes?"
- SPSpeaker
Oh.
- SSSimon Sinek
And that just means, "I really need you." And anybody can step out of a meeting for eight minutes.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And it doesn't mean you're gonna hold the whole space. You'll get in touch with them later. And, and the number of times we don't do this because I'm like, "Oh, I need an hour."
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
"I don't have an hour," and then it goes and goes, and we don't wanna burden someone.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
No one feels guilty asking for eight minutes. There's no burden.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right? Um, and, uh, it's, it's a, it works. It's a, it's a... And, you know, it doesn't happen often. It's something you reserve.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
But the couple of times I've had that text, you know.
- SPSpeaker
I mean, that's, that's the thing. It's something you reserve. I can already see myself thinking, like analyzing my call for help or eight minutes thinking, "No, no, no, this isn't, this isn't an eight-minute worthy text," or whatever. Yeah. Um, how does that-
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, it's a bit like the, this happened. How does that translate to the workplace, though? Because leaders, uh, I feel like there is a pressure for leaders to constantly be available, um, emotionally as well for their, um, colleagues. So is that a technique that you think could work?
- SSSimon Sinek
I've never thought about it in a work context. Um, I mean, maybe if there's an emergency, but that should never come up. I mean, unless you're, unless you're, like, working in the emergency room.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
You know? None of us, very few of us are doing anything that, you know-
- SPSpeaker
Life or death
- SSSimon Sinek
... life or death. And so, um, I, I would, I would hope my... Look, if somebody at work came to me with that, I, I would respond. But the, the question it would raise for me is, where are their friends?
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
You know? Um, that's the question it would raise for me. It wouldn't make me... I would deal with it, but I'd, I'd be worri- I'd be even more worried about them.
- SPSpeaker
And tell me a little bit about the, the focus on friends-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... for, for your book. Like, where did that come from, as someone who has focused so much on lessons for the business community-
- 25:00 – 30:00
Simon's focus on friendship
- SSSimon Sinek
Great book, by the way. Um, uh, we realized that there's an entire industry to help people be better leaders. I'm, I'm a part of it.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Um, there's an entire industry to help people find love, right? Um, and there's precious little about how to be a friend. And if you think about it, you know, y- you'll struggle to be a leader if you don't have a friend. You'll struggle to find love if you don't have a friend, because when things go sideways at work or in your relationship, like, you have to call someone-
- SPSpeaker
Mm
- SSSimon Sinek
... for advice, and that should be a friend, or it should include a friend at the very minimum. Um, and, and then you look at the, the w- the state of the world, you know, with rising levels of anxiety and depression, in, in, in extreme cases, suicide, uh, even, even the obsession with longevity, friendship literally fixes all those things. Friendship is the ultimate biohack. But very few of us are actually very good at being friends.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right? Like, if I ask everybody, "Are you a good friend?" Most people say yes. And let's peel the onion one layer. Would you cancel on a friend because you have a meeting? Or would you cancel on a meeting because you, a friend needs you? Oh, but my friends will understand, right? We- we're, we're pretty shitty friends.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
Right? Like, if you have a, a, a really bad row with your loved one-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... divorce is not the first reaction. You'll go for couples counseling, and you'll try and work through it, and it might end, might end up as a breakup, but you really try to make it through the relationship, and you seek counsel.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right? If you have a, a, a problem with a colleague or a, a, a, a, a boss or, or, or, or, or somebody who, who, who you're responsible for at work, um, you don't immediately quit or get fired. That's not what happens. There's a coach, and there's a conversation, and you work through tension.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
The number of friendships that I've seen, friendships that have, you know, over a decade, and they consider themselves good best friends, one bad fight, one violation of trust-
- SPSpeaker
Out the window
- SSSimon Sinek
... friendship's gone. Why are there no, why are there no friendship therapists, right? Um, why are there no friendship coaches? Why is nobody there to help us manage through friendship?
- SPSpeaker
And what's your answer to that?
- SSSimon Sinek
We have to learn to be friends.
- SPSpeaker
But why haven't, why, why haven't th- we put enough focus on friendships?
- SSSimon Sinek
I think we take it for granted. I think we take our friends for granted because for all the reasons I said before, which is, "Oh, but my friends will understand." There's assu- there's assumptions that we make that, you know, I can't rely that I'll always have my job because I'm not in total control of it. I can't rely that I'll always have my relationship. I have to bring my A game because that's the deal, and everybody knows it, because the industry taught me that.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Um, uh, but I think we, we just, we just don't think of friends that way. Um, and also there's a range of friends, right? You have friends that are just fun. You're not gonna go to them with your problems, and that's fine. They're just fun. Um, but I, I think when you start having deep, meaningful relationships, and that's what's lacking. I'm not talking about the silly, fun ones. I'm talking about the deep, meaningful relationships.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And, and then I've even started asking myself and, like, who am I spending time with? You know, I have a limited amount of time in a day. I have a limited of time in a lifetime. Am I spending my time with people who teach me something?
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Who inspire me? Who celebrate me? Who make me feel like I'm the best version of myself? Who give me a space to be my broken and best version of myself? Like, am I spending time with those friends? Or am I spending time with friends 'cause it's a warm body and I get to watch a movie with them?
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Because I'm too afraid to be alone, you know? And I started questioning the people that I was, some of the people I was spending time with, and I realized I didn't, I needed to work on those skills.
- SPSpeaker
And you've built in some hacks, haven't you, in order to make sure that you do spend quality time with the right type of friends?
- 30:00 – 35:50
Understanding the younger generations
- SPSpeaker
X, millennials, uh, and Gen Z. Um, what is your take on how- Those generations can best work together in, in, in a team in, uh, in a workplace.
- SSSimon Sinek
So the question, uh, it's all about empathy, right? Um, we bring our own story to work-
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... and we, and that story is a lens-
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... and we evaluate everybody else that we're with through our lens. And what we need to do, doesn't mean you have to agree with people, um, uh, but it does mean you have to understand where it comes from. We, we have all these labels and judgments, especially of younger generations, and I guess the younger generations-
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... have it of us-
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... again, based on that lens.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Um, but I'll give you, I'll give you a, an example. So when I was young in my career, if you wanted a raise or a promotion, the way you got it was you work really, really hard, you accomplish something-
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... you go to your boss and be like, "Look what I did. I deserve a raise or a bonus." And that was the, how things were done. And kids now will come to me and be like, "Pay me more, and you'll see what I can do."
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
And I'm like, "Sh- no?"
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
Like, "Shouldn't you do something first?" And we label that as entitlement, 'cause it-
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... sure sounds like it, right? So the question I'm asking is, where did that come from?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
That's the empathy. Where did that come from? And then you take one step back and be like, all right, let's look at how capitalism and business and leadership has sort of progressed over the past 20, 30 years, 30, 40 years, right?
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And, you know, you start to see a pattern where in the '80s and '90s, this, this, uh, Jack Welch, GE rise of short-termism, you start to see short-termism become normalized, like quarterly results are the thing.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
You start to see the rise of shareholder supremacy, where we now prioritize the wants, needs, and desires of a disinterested external constituency over a customer or an employee. That's now normal.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
We s- uh, and by the way, we used to think private companies were better than public companies because they didn't have the same pressure. The number of companies that are venture-backed, you now have a disinterested external, uh, who's putting pressure on you so they can meet-
- 35:50 – 45:00
The problem with perfection: AI in work and life
- SPSpeaker
to understanding, uh, the, the motivations and behaviors of these different generations and, and seeing how that can, uh, improve, uh, the workplace. But we're embracing AI more and more. So is it, you know, is, is the future pretty bleak that we're not gonna get that level of understanding?
- SSSimon Sinek
It's a choice It's a choice. Like, if you become a leader, like when you were junior in your career, somebody taught you how to do your job. You either went to school for it, if you're an accountant or something like that-
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... or the company gave you lots of training. Why did they give you that training? 'Cause they want you to be good at your job. That's why they gave you the training. They're not idiots. They don't expect you to know how to do it if they didn't show you how to do it. But they'll eventually promote you, and they give you no training. You get promoted to a position where you're now responsible for people who do the job you used to do-
- SPSpeaker
Mm
- SSSimon Sinek
... but nobody teaches that. And, and so the choice to become a leader means I will choose to learn this new skill that's difficult, right? Um, when you enter a relationship, you have to make choices to learn how to listen. You have to make... You have to, you have to do that. And so the AI conversation is, well, what kind of person do you want to be? What kind of leader do you wanna be? What kind of partner do you wanna be? What choice are you gonna make? And I'll give you an example. Let's say you have a fight with someone. I don't care if it's at work or at home, right? You have a fight with your girlfriend, right? And you feel bad, and you wanna put it right, and so you go to ChatGPT and you say, "Here's what happened. Uh, I wanna take responsibility. What should I say to repair this relationship?"
- SPSpeaker
Have you read my phone? [laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
And [laughs] careful.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
And ChatGPT gives you a perfect answer, and you don't memorize it, but you-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... you got it. It's... You got the gist, right? And you go to your partner and say, and you give what ChatGPT told you to say, and she goes, "Thank you. That is... Thank you so much. Yes, I... Yes. Did you get that from ChatGPT?"
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
And if you say yes, you're back to being in a fight again-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... because you weren't sincere. You weren't sincere. That doesn't mean we can't use ChatGPT, right? If you have a fight with, uh, somebody at work, or you have a fight with, uh, your partner, you should, you should get advice. You should get advice from your friends. If you have a therapist or a coach, you should get advice from them. And you take all the advice from people and you form a strategy, and you go to your partner, and you fumble and bumble and say, "I wanna put this right," and you... And it comes from the heart.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And it's that that makes somebody fall in love with you or trust you. It's that you actually mean it. It's the sincerity. It's not that you got the words right-
- SPSpeaker
Mm
- SSSimon Sinek
... it's that it came from you, from the heart, not from the head, right? And we're in a society right now that is so obsessed with the net result, the end result.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Like, I wanna write the perfect apology, I wanna write the perfect press release, I wanna write the perfect blog post. You know, we're all wearing metrics devices and, like, we're all so obsessed with the metric and the end result that we've forgotten the value of the process. We've forgotten the value of the heart. It's not just the head, right? So for example, could AI write my next book? 100% it could. There's enough out there that it could take source material from. I could tell it all my thinking, and it'll bang out a book. I have no, no doubt, right? I've tried it with articles. It's scary good. Um, uh, and getting better. But here's something I know. Here's something I know for a fact: I am smarter, I am a better problem solver, I am much better at pattern recognition, I'm better at understanding the logic of an argument because, not because books exist with my ideas in them. It's because I wrote them.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
It's because I struggled to organize the thoughts. It's because I had sleepless nights trying to solve problems. I was, I was having brainstorming sessions with a million people to help me. I had to ask for help. It was that I wrote it.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
The struggle of the process is what made me better, and that's why I'm talking about the example with the partner, which is it's the process. It's the struggle of the process-
- SPSpeaker
Mm
- SSSimon Sinek
... that makes you a better partner, a better boss and a better employee, that you're choosing to be a better version of yourself. Now, A- AI can absolutely live alongside.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
It can be one of the resources you call upon. But I would like to learn the skill, and I would like others to learn the skill, too. I don't want them to just say the perfect thing-
- 45:00 – 47:00
Q&A: Why do we lose our curiosity?
- SSSimon Sinek
come nobody sat in the front row?
- SPSpeaker
Look, they're all reserved. They're scared-
- SSSimon Sinek
Oh
- SPSpeaker
... of the ... Yeah, good question. Okay, I've got a microphone here. I'll leave ... Perhaps you can stand up and-
- SSSimon Sinek
Oh, okay
- SPSpeaker
... yeah. And let me go into the audience. Okay, I had a question here. I've got one there, and whoa. Okay, let's take this one first. Yeah, come to you. Yeah. I'll hold it. [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
Uh, hey, Simon. It's, uh, great to meet you again. Um, in July we met on Zoom.
- SSSimon Sinek
Were you the guy who was hi- hiding in my bushes outside my house?
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
No.
- SPSpeaker
We talk- we covered that in-
- SSSimon Sinek
Nice to meet you again too
- SPSpeaker
... this talk as-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
No, go for it. What's your question?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, so my, my question is I'm the, uh, the proud, uh, uncle of two nieces. Uh, Flora just turned two last week. Uh, Eurene, who is, uh, now four years old, uh, she does start with why, but she's actually even better at sticking to why, and so why, why, why.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
And so I was wondering, are young children the masters of why-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... and do we as adults lose it over time?
- SSSimon Sinek
Oh, yes. So it's tr- yes.
- SPSpeaker
That's amazing.
- SSSimon Sinek
The, the, the simple answer is of course, right? Kids wanna know how the world works. They, um, they have no, uh, judgment of each other, right? They're completely non-judgmental. It's kind of magical, and there is something that happens when we become older that we lose, we lose it. I, I know some of the biology around it as to why it happens. Um, but yeah, I mean, and, and if you think about sort of our favorite people that inspire us, they have a childlike quality to them. They either have a childlike curiosity to them or a childlike wonder, or they just sort of s- speak their mind, and we find it sort of endearing because the adults in us, like we, we sometimes hold back. Not the Dutch. They tell you.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
Uh-
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs] The Dutch tell you. Uh, but yeah, I think, I think you're right. I think we can learn a lot from kids. Yes.
- 47:00 – 50:10
Young people, workload vs burnout, and genuine connections
- SPSpeaker
in many global companies that go through enormous burnout crisis.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
I'm just wondering, with all the things that you were talking about, um, the importance of friendship, of a support network, the importance of authentic leadership and-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... connecting and having true conversations, how do you see that, you know, being solved in the workplace?
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
'Cause a lot of these Gen Zs, they are, they are young. They don't establish a good relationship with their leader, and-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... they don't have r- real true friends that they can connect to. Again, overgeneralizing, but just a-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... overall-
- SSSimon Sinek
No, I think you ... It, it, the generalization is fair. You know, I, I've talked to a lot of young people, and they will admit to me that they like their friends, they have fun with their friends, um, but they would never go to their friends in time of struggle, and they would admit that they wouldn't be surprised if their friends canceled on them because they got a better offer from someone else, uh, which f- you know, is an amazing thing to hear. Uh, sad. Um, and, um, I think we, I think one of the mistakes that we've made is we've confused, uh, workload with burnout. Well, it, it, it's related to some degree, but, you know, you can work with passion and work long hours, and you can work long, long hours with no passion, and you're more likely to burn out because when you're working with passion, working those long hours is invigorating, right? And I got this wrong for many years. I was very strict in my company that I didn't want anybody to work after hours, and I didn't want anybody to work on weekends because, you know, I believed in balance and blah, blah, blah. And I, uh, uh, a company I, I, I did some work with called Watercooler, they gave me some data That showed, because and they, the, what the companies, they predict, they predict burnout. That's what they do, right? And they showed me this data, which was amazing. And basically, people who never work on weekends and never work in the evenings, very, very high risk of burnout or flight risk because they're bored and not very engaged. So very high flight risk, right? People who work too many nights and too many weekends, very high rate of burnout or flight risk because they're overdoing it. But people who occasionally work nights and weekends are actually very, very happy, and they're choosing to work those nights and weekends because they care. Because they care. And I immediately got it wrong. So now, I don't mind if people work nights and weekends. I monitor how often they're working nights and weekends, that's number one. But also, I check in with people, and we have to do that. Are you okay? How are you feeling? And I think the rapport of being able to check in with each other, this... A- a- and it's, it's as much as true in, with young people and friendship as n- a, as it is with work. Are you okay? How are you, is a question we very, very rarely answer. And I'll leave with one final thought. A friend of mine, George Flynn, who was a, he retired as a three-star general in the Marine Corps, he said that his test of leadership is if somebody asks you, "Are you okay?" and actually cares about the answer-
- SPSpeaker
Hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... that's a leader.
- SPSpeaker
Okay, thanks very much, Simon. Another question here.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, hello. Uh, my name is Maya. I'm living in, uh, Austria. I'm Dutch, actually, and I used to be restaurant manager, and I struggled
- 50:10 – 53:30
How to help your team develop capacity for creativity and problem solving?
- SPSpeaker
with the situation that I was happily finally becoming a leader and, uh, wanted to give my team the opportunity to be creative and put in their thoughts, and I ended up with they couldn't handle that. And-
- SSSimon Sinek
You ended up with what?
- SPSpeaker
Cr- the creativity. They couldn't handle the cr- the opportunity for creativity I gave them-
- SSSimon Sinek
Oh
- SPSpeaker
... to give in their thoughts on the situations we had to face. And [laughs] they thought I didn't know how to job and they lisnt- listen- didn't listen to me anymore.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- SPSpeaker
So I, I was wondering, what could have been the preparation steps to set up the team for this freedom of thought?
- SSSimon Sinek
Oof, okay.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
All right. So I hope everybody's okay, but this is gonna go for another hour.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
All right. You're very brave to ask that question in an audience. Uh-
- SPSpeaker
[claps]
- SSSimon Sinek
Without knowing the details, I don't... I, I'm gonna just make up an answer-
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
... because I don't know the specific circumstances. But it sounds like things I've heard before, so I caution that my answer may not apply to you. But-
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
I've seen this before. My team doesn't get it. They didn't give me anything creative. They're not up for the challenge. They've disappointed me again. That's not the case, right, with you? No. So then I'm completely misunderstanding the question.
- SPSpeaker
I think so.
- SSSimon Sinek
I'll give my answer anyway.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
And we can check in, I can check in with you later and find the real circumstance. What I found out, just, uh, as an aside, is that, look, the only common factor in all my failed relationships is me, right? And I think that in business, we sometimes forget that we have an impact in the teams and the people with whom we work. And when I hear people say, "Nobody on my team is, gets it. The company, the s- the, the company's direction is wrong. All I do, I have to fix everything. The only body, the only person I can trust is myself," I'm starting to think, like, maybe it's not the team, maybe it's not the company, maybe it's you.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
And that's a very hard thing for people to come to terms with because it's much easier to create a narrative that everybody else is getting it wrong, because it's very hard to say, "I'm getting it wrong." Um, so I raise that. That may not be for you, but, uh, I've seen that pattern.
- SPSpeaker
All right. Yeah, we have a question here.
- SPSpeaker
Simon, hello. My name is Andre. Um, I do a lot of, some public speaking, not at this scale, not near this. But I quote you a lot, and I sound very smart. So first of all, thank you so much for writing all your books.
- SPSpeaker
[claps]
- 53:30 – 56:45
Where do you get your inspiration from?
- SPSpeaker
I'm a South African, I live in London, so when I feel a little bit down, I switch on my phone and I go to your, um, A Bit of Optimism podcast-
- SSSimon Sinek
Thank you
- SPSpeaker
... I need a bit of Simon. So here's my question, and this is a personal question to you: Where do you get your inspiration from? In other words, who is your Simon Sinek?
- SPSpeaker
[claps]
- SSSimon Sinek
Uh, so my sister and I are insanely close. Um, we moved around the world as kids, and so the only common, uh, the only common people we had in our lives were each other. Like, 'cause we kept losing our friends, right? 'Cause we kept moving, and this is obviously pre-internet, pre-FaceTime. And so as a result, she and I are extremely close. Um, so and we're insanely honest with each other. We work together as well. And so, uh, we'll be, we'll be in a meeting, and at the end of the meeting, one of us will call the other b- uh, person and be like, "You can't talk to people like that." You know? Like we're, like, and it's, it's an amazing thing. So my sister inspires me. But I also, I also, I love, I love- People who serve. And if you ask me, like, where j- where I get inspiration from, I love people-- I love artists and I love people in the military. They're the same person. They're the same person. Both of them, um, whatever they do, for whatever reason they started, for some reason it becomes a calling. Whether it started that way or not, it becomes a calling. Both of them, uh, know that they're not gonna get rich doing what they're doing. Both of them, um, have to sacrifice tremendously to do the thing that they do, and both of them, 100% of their work product is for someone else. And so my favorite people to spend time with are, are my friends that I've made over the years in the military and, and artists. I, I-- They're the best people in the world. They, they inspire me. I don't have that level of grit like they have. I wish I did.
- SPSpeaker
Thanks very much, Simon. [audience applauding]
- SPSpeaker
Hi, Simon. My name is Sylvia. I forgot my previous question really because of the nerves-
- SSSimon Sinek
Oh
- SPSpeaker
... but I had another [chuckles] question. Um-
- SSSimon Sinek
Can we, can we turn up the m- the, the audience mic a little bit, please?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. I had another question-
- SSSimon Sinek
Oh, thank you
- SPSpeaker
... it was related to the previous, but I forgot it because of the nerves now. So I'm so sorry.
- SPSpeaker
Oh. Oh, okay.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
So you can't remember your question?
- SPSpeaker
But, but can I, can I ask another question that I also- [audience laughing] Yeah? I take-
- SSSimon Sinek
I like that. I forgot my question because of my nerves, but can I ask another question?
- SPSpeaker
Simon-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... um, I buy leaders that I work with your book, Together is Better.
- SSSimon Sinek
Thank you. I love that book.
- SPSpeaker
Beautiful.
- SSSimon Sinek
Thank you.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. And my question in the app was I really felt you before when you were talking to him, and then I sent in the app, "Can I give you a hug?" So.
- SPSpeaker
Oh, okay. [audience laughing] Maybe we can do that afterwards.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs] Okay. Maybe we can do that afterwards, but thank you very much. Yeah, we can do that. Okay, let's go to some non-physical related questions over here. [audience laughing] Let's go to this lady. Okay, lovely. What is your name and, um, your organization and what's your question?
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
My name is Jolene. Um, I have a question. As a person, I'm try to be
- 56:45 – 59:45
How do you understand and inspire skeptical people?
- SPSpeaker
positive and, um, I hope I am a oppos- um, a optimistic leader, but sometimes I really struggle with skeptic people.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
But I truly want to understand their side of-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... the vision, but how, as a optimistic leader, can you inspire them or make it work together?
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah. It's very, very easy answer. Don't worry about it. [audience laughing] They're, they're, they're on their journey. They're on their journey, and you can't convince them to change. The only thing you can do is show up consistently, consistently. There's a-- So I know a guy, um, he works at a, he works at a, at a company that I love. It's the company Barry-Wehmiller, which I've written about in, uh, in Leaders Eat Last. And when Barry-Wehmiller came in with this amazing new leadership stuff and, like, they believed in people and trusted people and it was, it was-- Like, everything that I talk about, this company does. It's wonderful. And this company showed up, they bought his company, and he thought it was all stupid and he hated it and he just wants to work hard. He takes pride in his work. "Leave me alone. I don't n- need any of your mushy, mushy stuff. Just leave me alone." And he showed up to work every day, the way he described it is, angry. Not depressed, just angry. He only trusted, like, a small handful of people in the world. He didn't trust or like anybody at work. He just wants to come to work, do his job, go home, leave me alone. Your stuff is stupid. And they just consistently would come to him and say, "Morning. Morning." And he would say, "I don't need it." "Morning." And over time, they just never stopped believing in him. They just continued doing it, treated him no matter what. They never tried to convince him. They never told him he was wrong. They never yelled at him. They were just consistent. And then at some point, the, the company that offers listening classes, communications classes, and he thought, "I'll give it a try. I'll g- I'll see what this is all about." And it absolutely transformed him. He learned so much from that class. He let down his guard and he realized, "I've been angry at home, I've been angry at work. I'm an angry person. I don't wanna be angry anymore." And he is an amazing human being, but it took him years. And so don't worry about it. They're on their journey. We don't know what their story is. We don't know what they've gone through. It's not for us to ask. It's just for us to be there for them with consistency, and they'll either come or they won't. But it's not your burden. It's not your burden. [audience applauding]
- SPSpeaker
Thanks. I'm Rachel from the UK. I work in healthcare, and I'm... We're recognizing burnout, um, at quite high levels-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... in healthcare.
- 59:45 – 1:03:40
Burnout in healthcare
- SPSpeaker
And when I look to Christina Maslach's work and we talk about the canary in the mine, we've got a lot of canaries dropping-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... but our leaders really aren't looking to im- our environment-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yep
- SPSpeaker
... to try and improve that.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yep.
- SPSpeaker
So it reflects very much back on us as the healthcare professionals.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yep.
- SPSpeaker
And we don't like the word resilience because w- if we aren't resilient and we're burning out-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yep
- SPSpeaker
... it makes us feel weak. How do we encourage our leaders to look at our environment and support us better, ideally preventing burnout?
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah. So I, I know US healthcare better. I'm gonna assume it's something similar. Um, I have a, a few friends who are, uh, emergency room nurses, A&E nurses, um, and they have told me that if you work in an ER, um, there's a very high rate of alcoholism You never, ever ask for help. You never admit weakness, uh, because it's just culturally not acceptable. And they said that when we went into lockdown during COVID, um, the drinking just went up. That's all that happened, is the way they cope with stress is unhealthily. Um, and the, and leadership, as you said, um, does nothing to support. One of the things that I learned, um, in the US military, and they learned this through Afghanistan and Iraq, that the amount of stress that their doctors and nurses had to deal with with a combat m- with combat medicine, that they realized that the rate of burnout and unhealthy ways of dealing with stress was too high. So they developed entire teams of mental health professionals who deploy not for the patients, but for the doctors and the nurses. That's literally their job, is to protect the mental health of the doctors and nurses. That's their entire job. And when COVID happened, I called up the Surgeon General of the Air Force. I said, "Hey, you know those mental health units that you have? What are they doing now?" They said, "Nothing, because we're not deployed." I said, "Can we deploy them domestically? Can we send them to h- our hospitals to look after our doctors and nurses?" And there's a whole rigmarole, and they're not legally allowed to, blah, blah, blah. But then I started asking the question is, why don't hospitals have mental health professionals that are there for the doctors and nurses? That's their sole job. Um, and we know the answer. It's because it costs money, and it, it does-- If I can't bill it to the insurance or to the state, then I'm not gonna spend the money. And what the leaders of hospitals don't understand is it's gonna cost you way more in the long term than this thing in the short term. So I think one of the things we have to start doing, and I'll do my part if you do your part, is we have to talk about it. We have to make that which is implicit explicit. We have to have doctors and nurses to have the courage to say, "I'm struggling. I don't have the strength for this pace, and I know nobody else does." Um, because all it takes is one person to say it, and then you get sort of like one other person goes, "Me too," you know? But nobody will unless somebody goes first. And so I can tell the stories about these needs for these units, and they exist, and there's models, and we can copy the models. We don't even have to start from scratch. But I also need people to say, "We need help." And it starts with one. So it's gonna take both of us, but we have to make that which is implicit explicit.
- SPSpeaker
Thanks so much, Simon. We've got five minutes left, I'm afraid, and there's also a couple of questions from Menti, so I'm gonna take this one here, short question.
- SSSimon Sinek
Wanna do one from over here, on this side?
- SPSpeaker
Uh, I've been standing next to this guy for like-
- SSSimon Sinek
Oh, okay
- SPSpeaker
... the last 8 minutes. [laughs] It will be-
- SSSimon Sinek
I'm tr- I'm trying. I'm trying.
- SPSpeaker
It would be awful [laughs] to walk away from him.
- SPSpeaker
This guy-- Hi, Simon. I'm Simon. Uh, I have a question regarding a friendship.
- 1:03:40 – 1:08:50
How to have a hard conversation with a friend?
- SPSpeaker
You said that you, you've got some friend-- Your friendship sounds very balanced, all the friendships you have, because you can talk either positive things or negative things that happen in their life. I'm struggling with what you call deep, meaningful relationships with friends because on one hand, I have friends that are just I've sort of a bragging relationship with, and on the other hand, I have friends that's almost a whining, uh-
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
... topics that we discuss. I know I'm the common denominator, but I, I struggle with both-
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
... uh, friendships or friend groups either, even, where I, it costs me energy as I'm trying to steer-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... the braggers towards being vulnerable and the naggers towards being more positive and optimistic.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
I, I, I, I c- I, yeah, I'm not having fun in my friendships.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs] I love you, man.
- SPSpeaker
No, it's the truth. [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
[clapping] Okay, thanks very much.
- SPSpeaker
Thank you.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
So, so, so the quest- the question is: What am I doing wrong?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
So you wanna try something really, really, really, really difficult? Call up one of them, press-- Uh, or do it over dinner, you know. Do it in person. Um, don't do it over text, please.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
Um, and have this conversation: "Can I have an uncomfortable conversation with you?" And let them say yes, because they get to volunteer to be in, in an, in a difficult space, right? Never spring it on somebody. Don't just like f- otherwise it's coming in hot, right? "Can I have an uncomfortable conversation with you?" They'll say yes, and you go, "I struggle in this friendship, if I'm honest. I like you. We have, you know... I l- I, I enjoy the time, but I'm not sure I'm getting a lot out of this, and I don't know how you feel about this friendship. And so really, I'm asking you to tell me what this friendship means to you, if anything, and I'm okay if it means nothing, but I wanna know from you. And the reason I'm having this conversation with you is because I want this friendship to be better. And I know if I'm struggling, I have to believe that you're not having fun either, because it's never gonna be one of us loves it and the other one hates it. That, that's never gonna h- be the case. And so if I'm feeling uncomfortable in the friendship, are you also? Because I wanna talk it through." And then shut up.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
And then from that point on, once you've put it on the table, your job is to simply say, "Tell me more. What else? Go on." And you let them say everything. They go, "No, no, it's great." And you go, "Really? 'Cause it's not always great for me, and I don't believe it's always great for you." You gotta get them talking, but you gotta become the listener. And you'll discover that some of those friendships actually have the capability to be the kinds of friendships you're looking for, or you'll discover they don't. But either way, you'll find clarity.
- SPSpeaker
Okay. Um, three minutes. Uh, yeah.
- SPSpeaker
[clapping]
- SPSpeaker
[clapping]
- SPSpeaker
Hi. So my name is Anita. I'm the CEO of a family company, and I wanted to ask a question, but since I have three minutes, I'll ask another one.
- 1:08:50 – 1:11:30
A code for the 8-minute phone call
- SPSpeaker
tips.
- SSSimon Sinek
Oh, good.
- SPSpeaker
Um, I turn it around in a five-minute tips.
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
Uh, so I tell my best friends, and since then we've been meeting monthly, uh, to see how we're going.
- SSSimon Sinek
Oh, love.
- SPSpeaker
Um, but yeah, we might have, need to have a code in the company when that friend is calling you at the office, and it might just be Simon is calling.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
And to step out of a meeting and to be there for the friend, so, uh, or, uh, do, uh, do you have any other ... Because we have a game Simon Says.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
That's a s- that's a game.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
So maybe Simon Calls-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... and you walk out and-
- SPSpeaker
That's great.
- SSSimon Sinek
So, so, so I'll give you, I'll give you a serious answer, right? Um, uh, you can't walk up to a stranger on the street and say, "Will you be my friend?" It doesn't work. Friendship is earned, and it comes, sometimes it's quick, sometimes it's slow, but there, there's an exchange, and it has to be two ways. And, uh, and no matter the desire, m- I am not equipped to be there for your team, and your team is not equipped to be there for me for one very simple reason: I don't care, and neither do they. They don't know me and I don't know them. It's the, it's the equivalent of strangers, right? And so as much as I appreciate the idea of it, I want them to be able to turn to each other, to people they know and trust, because th- that interaction ... Like I said, we don't build trust by offering help. We build trust by asking for it, and the willingness to take the risk with someone you know, the impact of that is vastly greater than asking somebody you don't know. Then it's just a professional relationship. It's just a paid pr- it's a therapist, which has value, but it's not a trusting, deep, meaningful relationship. So as much as I appreciate the offer, they are better equipped to take care of each other than I am of them and they are of me.
- SPSpeaker
But do we have a code?
- SPSpeaker
[claps]
- SPSpeaker
All right. Thank you very much, Simon. We're gonna leave it there, unfortunately. There's a bunch more questions, um, but, uh, we haven't got time, uh, I'm afraid, so-
- SSSimon Sinek
Can I have 30 seconds?
- SPSpeaker
Yes, you may.
- SSSimon Sinek
Um, let me tell you why I came here. Let me tell you why I do this. Uh, there's a connective tissue in everything I spoke about
- 1:11:30 – 1:13:42
Why Simon gives these talks
- SSSimon Sinek
today, whether I'm talking about friends, whether I'm talking about leadership, whether I'm talking about running a company, whether I'm talking about working at a company, which is we need each other. And as you've heard, um, I think that the, the way the world's progressed for the past 40 years has hurt, has hurt us. It's hurt economies, but it's hurt individuals, and it's hurt teams, and it's hurt trust. And it's embarrassing that I have a career, right? I talk about trust and cooperation. There should be no demand for my work. But the fact that there is demand for my work means that we know that this is something people want, and we know that it's something missing in the marketplace. And so I am here, the reason I do these events, is because I'm trying to change the world we live in into the one that we imagine, but I know I cannot do it alone. I can do my part. I can, I can, I can, I can scream from the treetops, I can write the books, I can do the, the online posts, I can do the talks, but my work is useless without you. You're working in the companies. You have the employees. You have the people who you're following. You're building the companies. You're defining what business can look like for the next century. Other people defined the business world that we work in today, and we get to redefine it to be the one we want. Listen to the questions we're getting. People don't trust each other. They're burning out. How do I find a friend? We have control over what the future looks like, and we have the solution for absolutely every single question that was asked today. What I'm asking for is your help. Become students of leadership. Become a better version of yourself. Learn the human skills, not the, the skills of the head, but the skills of the heart. Learn how to be there for each other, how to hold space, how to be there when somebody needs help, and how to ask for help yourself. 'Cause if we work together, this is an army. If we work together, mark my words, we will change the world we live in today for the better.
- SPSpeaker
[claps] [cheers]
- SSSimon Sinek
Thank you very much. Thank you.
- SPSpeaker
Thank you very much, Simon.
- SSSimon Sinek
Oh. [whistles]
Episode duration: 1:13:42
Install uListen for AI-powered chat & search across the full episode — Get Full Transcript
Transcript of episode 3d46OOit1mY
