Simon Sinek on Travel with an Infinite Mindset | Full Conversation

1. 0:00 – 2:15

   Intro

   1. GSGreg Schulze0:00

      Welcome back, everyone. Welcome. This morning we spent time talking about marketing and technology, and this afternoon we're shifting into partnership. And it's the combination of those three things that makes me incredibly optimistic. And I'm here with Simon Sinek, a self-described unshakable optimist. Simon is the host of a podcast called A Bit of Optimism, and the author of three best-selling, and I can vouch for them, very good books, uh, including The Infinite Game, which was recently published. And Simon, I'm very nervous.

   2. SSSimon Sinek0:38

      [laughs]

   3. SPSpeaker0:38

      [laughs]

   4. GSGreg Schulze0:38

      Very, very nervous. And-

   5. SSSimon Sinek0:41

      Well, you know the trick to that, right?

   6. GSGreg Schulze0:43

      I do. When you're nervous, you say, "I'm excited."

   7. SSSimon Sinek0:45

      Exactly.

   8. GSGreg Schulze0:45

      I read that on Simon's-

   9. SPSpeaker0:47

      [laughs]

   10. GSGreg Schulze0:47

       But here's the thing. Simon, you were here in 2017, and after every event we send out a survey, and you were the highest rated speaker by far. By far. And not just of that year, but any year that we've done this event, the highest. So I guess we said, "Well, how... Let's have Simon come back, and how can we possibly make that better?" And here I am.

   11. SSSimon Sinek1:11

       [laughs]

   12. SPSpeaker1:12

       [laughs]

   13. GSGreg Schulze1:14

       So-

   14. SSSimon Sinek1:15

       Well, that's, that's humbling. Thank you

   15. GSGreg Schulze1:16

       ... welcome back to the stage, Simon.

   16. SSSimon Sinek1:16

       Thank you. It's nice to be back. It's nice to be back.

   17. GSGreg Schulze1:18

       And it's great to have you. And what, what is it about your message that resonates with so many of us?

   18. SSSimon Sinek1:25

       You know, I think it's, I think it's human. I think it's a distinctly human message. You know, it's embarrassing that I have a career. I talk about trust and cooperation, there should be no demand for any of my work. Um, but I think the reason there is demand is because it's a very human experience that all of us are going through. I, I don't... Then the message that I share is my own. I struggle with trust. I struggle with cooperation. I struggle with all the same things, and I'm on my journey trying to figure it out for myself and for the people I love. And it turns out, if something resonates for me and my friends, it resonates for other people. So I think it's a, it's a, it's a very real message, and it always has been.

   19. GSGreg Schulze2:01

       And we, we were talking backstage, Simon insists on not getting questions in advance because he wants it to be, you know, real and authentic.

   20. SSSimon Sinek2:09

       I have no idea what you're gonna ask.

   21. GSGreg Schulze2:11

       [laughs]

   22. SSSimon Sinek2:11

       That is true. [laughs]

   23. GSGreg Schulze2:13

       Um, well, like I said, this morning

2. 2:15 – 3:57

   How technology makes our lives better

   1. GSGreg Schulze2:15

      we talked a lot about technology, and, um, I love how you say that technology isn't inherently good or inherently bad. How do all of us, how do we make sure that technology is making our lives better?

   2. SSSimon Sinek2:28

      So technology's supposed to alleviate a stress, right? Um, and just because we have the ability to do things with technology doesn't mean we should. You know, you know, I'm, I sound like an old man when I talk about this, but, like, why do we have to put flat screens on everything, you know? It's like, I'm in my car and I want the volume between seven and eight, but a dial I could do that.

   3. GSGreg Schulze2:53

      [laughs]

   4. SSSimon Sinek2:53

      But a button I can't. And, and so, like, whenever anybody's g- anybody's gonna apply technology or apply AI, I'm sure that's a hu- big topining, topic for you guys as well.

   5. GSGreg Schulze3:01

      We, we did mention AI.

   6. SSSimon Sinek3:02

      Yeah.

   7. GSGreg Schulze3:02

      Twice.

   8. SSSimon Sinek3:03

      Yeah. It hap-

   9. GSGreg Schulze3:03

      [laughs]

   10. SSSimon Sinek3:03

       It, it's like the topic of every conference. Um, uh, the question I always wanna know is what are we solving for? And because if we over-index on the technology, we're actually creating problems we didn't know that we were making, where we're... and what we're s- we're starting to see it. Like, social media and cell phones were a great idea and wonderful, but we didn't think it all the way through and we've created new problems. Addiction, depression, and now we're sort of trying to, like, whoops, you know? And so I, I always like to, to think what, what good will come of this? Or, so, so what's next?

   11. GSGreg Schulze3:35

       Right.

   12. SSSimon Sinek3:35

       Um, and trying to envision some of the accidental things we're, accidental problems we might be creating.

   13. GSGreg Schulze3:38

       It's hard to do because te- the technology moves so fast.

   14. SSSimon Sinek3:41

       Yeah.

   15. GSGreg Schulze3:41

       And I think it's accelerating. Um, we're i- uh, in, all in the travel industry, and, um, Expedia's a technology company in this very human-centered industry. Um, you talk in your, your book about... uh, and actually you give a great example of a hotel here in Las

3. 3:57 – 7:51

   Noah's story: stress vs. passion

   1. GSGreg Schulze3:57

      Vegas, about the human will.

   2. SSSimon Sinek3:58

      Noah. Yeah.

   3. GSGreg Schulze3:59

      Yeah. You wanna share about that?

   4. SSSimon Sinek4:00

      Uh, it's, it's, it's such a good story and it still resonates, and it's one of those that could never be repeated because this unique set of circumstances.

   5. GSGreg Schulze4:06

      And you can talk about the good hotel, just don't talk about the bad hotel.

   6. SSSimon Sinek4:09

      Yes. I will do that.

   7. GSGreg Schulze4:11

      [laughs]

   8. SSSimon Sinek4:11

      Um, uh... [laughs]

   9. SPSpeaker4:14

      [laughs]

   10. SSSimon Sinek4:16

       Now, now you've made, like, a little kid of me.

   11. GSGreg Schulze4:18

       Oh, no, please. [laughs]

   12. SSSimon Sinek4:18

       Like, really so tempted. Don't press the button.

   13. GSGreg Schulze4:22

       [laughs] Right.

   14. SSSimon Sinek4:23

       Um, okay. So I was in Vegas for a business trip a bunch of years ago, and the client put me up at the Four Seasons, which is a lovely hotel. Um, and the reason the Four Seasons is lovely is not because the beds, though the beds are nice, it's because the people who work there. Well, they happen to have a coffee bar at the Four Seasons down here, which you can go visit, and, uh, in the lobby, and one afternoon I went and bought myself a cup of coffee. And the, uh, barista working that day was a kid named Noah. Noah, um, was funny and engaging and charming, and I had way too much fun just buying a cup of coffee. So as is my nature, I asked Noah, um, "Do you like your job?"

   15. GSGreg Schulze5:04

       Hmm.

   16. SSSimon Sinek5:04

       And without skipping a beat, Noah said, "I love my job." Now, in my line of work, that's significant. Like versus love, right? Like is rational. I like the people, I like the challenge, I get paid well, I like my job. Love is emotional.

   17. GSGreg Schulze5:17

       Hmm.

   18. SSSimon Sinek5:17

       It's a higher order connection. It's like, "Do you love your husband?" "I like him a lot." You know?

   19. SPSpeaker5:23

       [laughs]

   20. SSSimon Sinek5:26

       Not the same.

   21. GSGreg Schulze5:27

       [laughs]

   22. SSSimon Sinek5:29

       So Noah said, "I love my job," so immediately my ears perked up.

   23. GSGreg Schulze5:32

       Mm.

   24. SSSimon Sinek5:33

       And so I asked him, "Tell me specifically what the Four Seasons is doing that you would even say to me, 'I love my job.'" And again, without skipping a beat, he said, "Throughout the day, managers will walk past me and ask me if there's anything they can do to make my job better. Not just my manager, any manager." And then he said, "I work for another hotel as well, and there they, um, they drive performance, they catch us doing things wrong. There I just like to keep my head below the radar. I just wanna get through the day and collect my paycheck." And he said, "Only at the Four Seasons do I feel I can be myself."

   25. GSGreg Schulze6:08

       Mm.

   26. SSSimon Sinek6:08

       Now, if you think about this, our experience of Noah at these two different hotels will be profoundly different, not because of Noah, but because of the leadership environment in which he works. And so often we blame the people who are on the front line for the customer experience when we never consider who they're working for. What's the leadership environment that they've created? And so to, to be able to make that comparison was a once, for me, a once in a lifetime experience, that same person, two different places, entirely different point of view about his work.

   27. GSGreg Schulze6:38

       Yeah. You, you have a quote, or at least I attribute a quote to you. I think you said this. Um, and it was, "Working hard for something we do not care about is called stress. Working hard for something we love is called passion."

   28. SSSimon Sinek6:53

       Yes.

   29. GSGreg Schulze6:54

       Sounds like Noah had a passion-

   30. SSSimon Sinek6:55

       He did have a passion
4. 7:51 – 12:18

   What the travel industry can learn from the pandemic

   1. GSGreg Schulze7:51

      And, and again, this is a group of, of travel industry, and we went through a global pandemic. It was a difficult time for, for the, the whole world. But, but I would say, you know, how do you stay an optimist working for a travel company during a global pandemic?

   2. SSSimon Sinek8:10

      Well, I mean, I think the, the beginning of it was, was awful because we, there was the unknown. Um, but I think what happened is what we're seeing, which is I think there was an over-reliance, and no, no disrespect intended to my, my lovely hosts, but there was an over-indexing on technology, technology, technology to solve all problems. And then I would even say actively trying to re- minimize-

   3. GSGreg Schulze8:34

      Mm

   4. SSSimon Sinek8:34

      ... people. And I think COVID may have been one of the accidental best things that ever happened to the travel industry because it really showed us the importance of people. The, the, the, you know, people talked about the, the death of the travel agent. It didn't happen. The travel advisor has come back stronger than ever. Um, and you know, we, we see the importance of people. And we kinda know this, you know? If you, if you look at sort of, you know, if you have status, like I have status on m- my preferred airline, and one-

   5. GSGreg Schulze9:03

      You can say that, too.

   6. SSSimon Sinek9:05

      I-

   7. GSGreg Schulze9:05

      [laughs]

   8. SSSimon Sinek9:06

      I, I'm a Delta guy.

   9. GSGreg Schulze9:07

      [laughs] Hey, Delta. [cheers] [laughs]

   10. SSSimon Sinek9:11

       It's, it's really good.

   11. GSGreg Schulze9:12

       Your status just went up.

   12. SSSimon Sinek9:16

       Yeah. [laughs]

   13. GSGreg Schulze9:17

       [laughs]

   14. SSSimon Sinek9:17

       I will, I will check my account later.

   15. GSGreg Schulze9:19

       [laughs]

   16. SSSimon Sinek9:21

       I'm a little bit behind this year, I'm not gonna lie. [laughs]

   17. GSGreg Schulze9:24

       [laughs]

   18. SSSimon Sinek9:24

       Um, in my MQMs. Uh- [laughs]

   19. GSGreg Schulze9:30

       [laughs]

   20. SSSimon Sinek9:30

       But, uh-

   21. GSGreg Schulze9:33

       [laughs]

   22. SSSimon Sinek9:33

       But we see it, right? Like, the best thing about having status in a hotel, in an airline, in any of these things, is not the upgrades, not the this, it's the phone number. It's that when I call I get a person, where somebody else who doesn't have status gets a machine. And, and, and we are now living in a world where interacting with a human being has become a luxury, but that's how special we know it is that it's become a luxury. Which is a whole different conversation whether that's a good thing or a bad thing. But we know how special human interaction is. Because by the way, it's not the problems that they're solving, it's that I get to talk to a person who has been trained well and cares about me. And I'll give you an example of what good customer service is and what, what, what, what... Uh, and we'll u- let's stick with an airline just for fun. So, uh, it's not about... So I think most customers, if we're really cynical, customers talk about they have great service or bad service if they got what they want or didn't get what they want, right? But that's not true. I'll give you an example. Let's say I'm on a business trip, and my work is done early, and I wanna go home to my family. I check the website, I see that there are, there's flights available on the earlier flights, and let's call it a day early. Um, and so I call the airline and I say, "Hey, I'm done early. I'd really love to get home to my family. I see that you've got availability in the earlier flight. Can I get on that flight?" And the agent says, "I'm sorry, you have the wrong class of ticket. I can't change your f- I can't change your flight." "I'm happy to pay a fee. I'm happy to pay whatever it is. Please, can I get on that flight?" "I'm sorry, sir. I told you, you have the wrong class of, uh, you b- you have the wrong class. Uh, I can't, I can't book you. You have the wrong status flight. I, there's nothing I can do. The computer won't let me do it." Okay? I now hate that airline, right?

   23. GSGreg Schulze11:18

       [laughs]

   24. SSSimon Sinek11:19

       Okay, let's replay that, okay? Same scenario. "Hi. I'm done early. Love to go home. I see you have availability. Can I get on that flight?" "Sir, I wanna get you home to your family. Here's the problem. It, your b- your, your ticket is the wrong class, and so the computer won't let me. But let me, let me see what I can do. I really wanna get you home to your family." Click, click, click, click, click, click, click. That didn't work. Click, click, click, click. That didn't work. "Sir, let me talk to my supervisor. I'm determined to get you home to your family." Go away, come back. "Sir, I talked to my supervisor. We've tried, like, six different things. There's nothing I can do. I am so, so sorry. I just cannot get you on that earlier flight." Don't worry, thank you for trying. I now love that airline even though I didn't get what I want. And that's what it feels like when someone cares. It doesn't mean we always get what we want, but what we get is somebody who understands and cares about what we're trying to accomplish. That's considered good service.

   25. GSGreg Schulze12:10

       I thought you were gonna... Yeah. [clapping]

5. 12:18 – 16:45

   The Infinite Game in practice

   1. GSGreg Schulze12:18

      So you were, you were here in 2017. Uh, The Infinite Game came out in 2019, uh, just before the pandemic. And, and I read it before and after. Um, I read it, uh, after you-

   2. SSSimon Sinek12:30

      Thank you.

   3. GSGreg Schulze12:31

      Yeah. You're welcome.

   4. SSSimon Sinek12:32

      One copy or two?

   5. GSGreg Schulze12:33

      I highly recommend. [laughing]

   6. SPSpeaker12:34

      [laughing]

   7. GSGreg Schulze12:36

      One, and then I pass it to my friends-

   8. SSSimon Sinek12:38

      Perfect

   9. GSGreg Schulze12:38

      ... and they-

   10. SSSimon Sinek12:38

       Excellent. Right answer.

   11. GSGreg Schulze12:40

       Just trying to spread the word.

   12. SSSimon Sinek12:41

       [laughing]

   13. GSGreg Schulze12:41

       [laughing] That's what really matters.

   14. SSSimon Sinek12:44

       It's what matters.

   15. GSGreg Schulze12:44

       Okay. Well, um, I'm just curious, like, you know, some of these shifts that we've seen in hospitality and, and in the world more, more broadly, has that changed your thinking at all about finite versus infinite games?

   16. SSSimon Sinek12:57

       You, I, it- the great thing about the pandemic, it actually reinforced everything I wrote about. 'Cause I'm open-minded. I, I put forward theories, you know, and so those theories can get tested-

   17. GSGreg Schulze13:07

       Right

   18. SSSimon Sinek13:07

       ... and need to be updated. And, and rereading The Infinite Game post-pandemic, it, it actually highlighted actually that a lot of those things, all of those things, 100% apply. Um, it... Is it worth me des- describing what The Infinite Game is?

   19. GSGreg Schulze13:21

       Probably.

   20. SSSimon Sinek13:22

       Okay. I will. Um, okay. So in the mid-1980s, a philosopher and theologian by the name of Dr. James Carse defined these two types of games, finite games and infinite games. A finite game is defined as known players, fixed rules, and agreed-upon objective: football, baseball, right? If there's winners, necessarily there have to be losers or a loser, but more important, there's always a beginning, a middle, and an end. In infinite games, um, y- there are known and unknown players, which means you don't necessarily know who all the other players are, and the bar- and any new player can join at any time. The rules are changeable, which means anyone can join the game whenever they want. And the objective is sustain the game, to perpetuate the game. We are players in infinite games every day of our lives, whether we know it or not. Um, no one will ever win career. No one will ever be declared the w- uh, the winner of education or learning. Nobody wins healthcare. Um, um, and no one will ever be declared the winner of business. Like, when Circuit City went bankrupt, Best Buy didn't win anything, right? Um, but when we listen to the language of so many of our leaders, it becomes abundantly clear that they don't know the game they're playing in. They're obsessed with being number one or being the best or beating their competition. Based on what? Based on what agreed-upon metrics, objectives, and timeframes? And this is a problem, because when we play with a finite mindset in the infinite game, when we play to win in a game that has no finish line, the outcomes are predictable and consistent: the decline of trust, the decline of cooperation, and the decline of innovation. We have to play for the game and the win. Are there finite games in the infinite game? Of course. There's always finite games. There's a beginning, middle, and end. It's like, let's g- Let's stick with airlines. Like, that gate agent has a finite game every time a plane needs to, to go. There's a beginning, middle, and end, repeat. But we want them to be aware of the infinite game. In other words, we want the company to stay in business, so I'm gonna treat people nicely as they're getting off and on the plane so that they'll come back again, right? 'Cause I want to perpetuate that we stay in the game. So you're always aware. And I think that the, the people who best understand, the, the companies that best understand the infinite game recognize that it's not just a series of transactions. It's not just a series of deals. It's about fostering a relationship. It's about building trust not only with your employees but also your customers. And it's that obsession that allows you to manage through the, the bad times. You can't really judge the quality of a company in good times, right? 'Cause we can all do well simultaneously. It's when the, when the, when things go sour, do the people at the company rally and say, "We're gonna do this together"? Do the customers come together? One of the greatest stories of this was post-September 11th, where the airline industry was decimated, and Southwest Airlines customers were sending checks, sometimes up to $1,000, to Southwest Airlines just rooting for them. I mean, imagine your customers sending you random checks just 'cause they're rooting for you, right? Now, clearly that amount of money meant nothing, but the sentiment that somebody wants a company to stay in business so badly is, I think, a testament to how they treated their customers every single day up until that day.

   21. GSGreg Schulze16:39

       Do you think trust... And, and, like I said, we're all partners here. Trust is

6. 16:45 – 19:00

   The Zoom Era

   1. GSGreg Schulze16:45

      obviously a critical part of partnership. Do you think it's gotten harder in this Zoom era when we're not face to face as much?

   2. SSSimon Sinek16:51

      I mean, the simple answer is yes.

   3. GSGreg Schulze16:52

      Mm-hmm.

   4. SSSimon Sinek16:53

      Um, you know, I actually think there's a hierarchy to the media that helps us build trust. In person obviously the best one, to be able to look each other in the eye. You can feel it.

   5. GSGreg Schulze17:03

      And we had just started with YouTube.

   6. SSSimon Sinek17:04

      Yeah.

   7. GSGreg Schulze17:04

      Me watching you on YouTube.

   8. SSSimon Sinek17:05

      Yeah.

   9. GSGreg Schulze17:06

      And now look at us.

   10. SSSimon Sinek17:07

       And now look at us.

   11. GSGreg Schulze17:07

       [laughing]

   12. SSSimon Sinek17:08

       Um, uh, but, like, if I look into the audience and I make eye contact with somebody, I mean, you can feel it. Even though we're in a dark room and I'm just looking you, I mean, you can feel it. You, you can't get that anywhere else except in real life. I think the next level down is the phone. I actually don't think it's Zoom. I think it's phone-

   13. GSGreg Schulze17:26

       Does everyone agree with Simon on this? Zoom or phone? Z- Uh, let's hear for phone. [clapping] And, and Zoom video- [clapping] ... or Teams.

   14. SSSimon Sinek17:36

       About 50/50. Yeah. 50/50. Um-

   15. GSGreg Schulze17:39

       I'm, I'm with you.

   16. SSSimon Sinek17:40

       Yeah. I-

   17. GSGreg Schulze17:40

       I think it's a generational thing.

   18. SSSimon Sinek17:41

       No. No, no. No, I don't think it's a generational thing.

   19. GSGreg Schulze17:44

       [laughing]

   20. SPSpeaker17:44

       [laughing]

   21. SSSimon Sinek17:44

       I think it's a biological thing.

   22. GSGreg Schulze17:45

       [laughing]

   23. SPSpeaker17:46

       [laughing]

   24. SSSimon Sinek17:46

       Um, um, I mean, you know, Zoom, it's nice to look at the person. Um, but you know, occasionally you have that experience where, um, they're looking at their screen, but their camera's over here, so what you see is the side of their head.

   25. SPSpeaker18:00

       [laughing]

   26. SSSimon Sinek18:00

       Or, and let's be honest, we spend a lot of times looking at ourselves.

   27. GSGreg Schulze18:04

       Self-view off.

   28. SSSimon Sinek18:05

       You know?

   29. GSGreg Schulze18:06

       [laughing]

   30. SSSimon Sinek18:06

       And I don't want self-view off.
7. 19:00 – 23:00

   Worthy Rivals

   1. GSGreg Schulze19:00

      as these are our partners, it means that some of them are also competitors.

   2. SSSimon Sinek19:03

      Yes.

   3. GSGreg Schulze19:04

      And, um, you talk in one of your books about worthy rivals-

   4. SSSimon Sinek19:07

      Yeah, infinite game

   5. GSGreg Schulze19:08

      ... in a game.

   6. SSSimon Sinek19:08

      Yeah.

   7. GSGreg Schulze19:08

      Um, and, uh, love that concept. Can you tell, maybe explain the, the idea of-

   8. SSSimon Sinek19:14

      So in a finite game, baseball, the other players are competitors. The goal is actually to beat them, that your score is higher, and at the end of the game, you will be declared winner, right? In business, there's not really such thing, and so to view each other as competitors is kind of silly because two companies can sell the same thing for about the same price, about the same quality, and both be wildly successful simultaneously. Um, instead of thinking of each other as competitors, because then all you do is focus on reacting to what they do, and you're choosing your own metrics, by the way, uh, as to what constitutes winning and losing. Um, uh, instead you wanna find the players who are as good or better at than you on one or many things, and have respect for them because their strengths reveal to you your weaknesses.

   9. GSGreg Schulze20:03

      But not, but not copy them, not try to be them.

   10. SSSimon Sinek20:06

       I mean, you can copy them if they, if they have got a good idea. But, you know, but the point is, you're not trying to beat them. You're trying to outdo yourself. I'll give you a real-life example that happened to me. So I spoke at an education summit for Microsoft, and by sheer weird coincidence, a few months later, I spoke at an education summit for Apple. At the Microsoft summit, most of the executives, this is the Steve Ballmer days, most of the executives spent most of their presentations talking about how to beat Apple. That's actually the language they used. Whereas, uh, the Apple summit, 100% of the executives spent 100% of their presentations talking about how to help teachers teach and how to help students learn. One was obsessed with their mission. The other one's obsessed with trying to beat their competition. Guess who was having issues with competition... uh, with cooperation, trust, and innovation, right? So, uh, at- after my talk at Microsoft, they gave me a gift. They gave me the new Zune when it was a thing. Some, some people remember what that was.

   11. GSGreg Schulze21:02

       Yeah, right.

   12. SSSimon Sinek21:02

       This was Microsoft's response to the iPod MP3 player, and Ballmer's intention was to beat Apple and make the product better, and by the way, they did a great job.

   13. GSGreg Schulze21:09

       A good product.

   14. SSSimon Sinek21:10

       They gave me the newest Zune at the time, and it was great. It was actually pretty decent. So, um, I was finished with my talk at Apple, and I was sharing a taxi with a senior executive, and I have this character flaw where I have to stir the pot, like you telling me not to menu... like, hit, don't hit the button. I was like, "Ugh."

   15. GSGreg Schulze21:26

       [laughs]

   16. SSSimon Sinek21:26

       So I'm sitting in the back of this taxi just like, "I gotta do it." And I turn to him and I say, "You know, Microsoft gave me their new Zune. It is so much better than my iPod."

   17. GSGreg Schulze21:35

       [laughs]

   18. SPSpeaker21:36

       [laughs]

   19. SSSimon Sinek21:37

       Uh, [laughs] and he looked at me, he said, "I have no doubt." And the conversation was over.

   20. GSGreg Schulze21:44

       [laughs]

   21. SPSpeaker21:45

       [laughs]

   22. SSSimon Sinek21:46

       Because companies playing with an infinite mindset understand that there's no such thing as a winner or a loser. There's no such thing as winning or losing. There's no such thing as beating your competition. You're either ahead or behind, and the goal is not to compete against your competitor. The goal is to compete against yourself. How do I outdo ourselves? How do we make our culture better this year than it was last year? How do we make our leaders better this year than they were last year? How do we make our marketing better this year than it was last year? Learn from your worthy rivals, those who are better than you, uh, in, in the business. Have their strengths reveal to you where you have to improve. It's worth noting that a year or two after this conversation, Apple introduced the iPod, which rendered both the i- uh, uh, introduced the iPhone-

   23. GSGreg Schulze22:25

       iPhone, yeah

   24. SSSimon Sinek22:26

       ... which rendered both the iPod and the Zune obsolete. Because they weren't competing against to make a better iPod, they were competing against themselves, which I love. I love.

   25. GSGreg Schulze22:35

       It's, it's a great story. And, and I remember when, when I had an iPod and I had a great flip phone-

   26. SSSimon Sinek22:40

       Yep

   27. GSGreg Schulze22:41

       ... I remember thinking, "Why would I possibly wanna put my music on my phone?"

   28. SSSimon Sinek22:44

       Or your camera or your encyclopedia-

   29. GSGreg Schulze22:46

       Or a camera

   30. SSSimon Sinek22:46

       ... or your, yeah.
8. 23:00 – 28:35

   How to encourage risk in your company

   1. GSGreg Schulze23:01

      So we have a new CEO as of yesterday, Ariann. She's out there somewhere. [laughs]

   2. SPSpeaker23:08

      [applause]

   3. GSGreg Schulze23:08

      Um, and, uh, for Ariann or for, for anyone in this room, um, you, you have to think about big, bold bets, um, as, as a leader of a company now.

   4. SSSimon Sinek23:22

      Mm-hmm.

   5. GSGreg Schulze23:22

      And, um, you talk a lot about that in your books. How do you encourage a culture? You know, what are some of the principles that Ariann should be thinking abo- about to encourage a culture within the company of taking risks and making big bets?

   6. SSSimon Sinek23:35

      So it's, uh, funny when I listen to a lot of corporate leaders, and they talk about, "We incentivize performance." Impossible. Biologically impossible. You can't incentivize an outcome. You can only incentivize a behavior. That's all you can do. And so you want to incentivize the behavior of trying new things, right? So I'll give you a personal example. Um, long ago, uh, uh, when I was, uh, I was a junior guy at a big ad agency, and it was customary for the senior folks to do the new business pitches. But it was holiday season, and so all these senior executives went off on vacation, and the junior idiots were left back at the office. And so, uh, so we had a big pitch in January, and so they told us to prepare the war room- Which basically means hang the research on the walls. That took an hour.

   7. GSGreg Schulze24:22

      [laughs]

   8. SSSimon Sinek24:23

      But we had a week to kill, so we decided, me and this other junior person, we decided to do the pitch ourselves. We combed through the research, we wrote a strategy, we developed a strategy, we wrote the pitch deck. We did all the work, and they came back from vacation and we presented our work to them, and they actually used our pitch, our deck, in the new, in the new business pitch. And they lost the business. They did not win the pitch, and my boss gave me a huge promotion. They actually moved me up two levels because he wasn't incentivizing my outcome, he was in- incentivizing my initiative. And by giving me a huge reward for showing initiative, guess what he got more of? Initiative. If he had s- come to me and said, "Look, I'm really grateful, but, you know, we didn't win, so I can't give you anything," then the next time I would've done nothing, or I would've just taken the safe road. And so we have to get... We have to incentivize and reward and recognize the behavior that we want, and then we will get the behavior that we want, and we create a safe space for people to try new things.

   9. GSGreg Schulze25:18

      And, and you talk a lot on your podcast, in fact, you had a, um, the designer, uh, that ad agency that did a lot of the Apple, early Apple-

   10. SSSimon Sinek25:27

       Oh, yeah, yeah. Lee Clow.

   11. GSGreg Schulze25:29

       Lee Clow.

   12. SSSimon Sinek25:30

       Yeah.

   13. GSGreg Schulze25:30

       And, um, it was fantastic and, uh, you talk a lot about creativity on your, on your podcast. How do you connect creativity and risk-taking and, and optimism? I mean, it was part of your A Bit of Optimism podcast.

   14. SSSimon Sinek25:44

       I think it all goes together, right? I think when you are driven... If, if there's, if, if the company comes and tells you to hit some financial n- number by the end of the year, like, how does that drive creativity? That drives small thinking. But if you have some sort of vision or mission, some just cause that's really, dare I say, delightful, like, and especially in your line of business. I mean, you're, you're out- the outcome is really delightful. It's amazing. It's experiences. It's stuff that reinforces relationship and memories, and it's arguably more important than money to a lot of people. Um, uh, you know, what an amazing thing to give people. And so if you, if you set your sights on we wanna create the most memorable experiences a, a family can have for the rest of their lives, go.

   15. GSGreg Schulze26:31

       Mm.

   16. SSSimon Sinek26:31

       Now, that's what people are thinking against. That's what, that, it's incredibly optimistic. It also gives them the drive and the grit to not quit just 'cause it gets difficult because that's so worth it. It's really important. Here's a little insight, though, on how you keep that thing alive, which is the more you can actually interact with the people who are the beneficiaries of your work, the more valuable. So, um, the case study on this one was there was a university who was, uh, uh, they had volunteers raising money for a scholarship, right? Dialing for dollars. And, uh, you know, donations were flat, and so they hired a consultancy to come and rewrite the script for them and, "In these difficult times, it's more," like, you know, the, you get the idea. And it was a small bump, but a group of social scientists did an experiment where they brought in one of the recipients of the scholarship to talk to the volunteers, you ready for this? For five minutes, and all of a sudden, performance skyrocketed because they weren't doing it for some amorphous kid who needs a scholarship. They weren't reading a script. They were doing it for that kid they met. It became deeply personal. They didn't need a script. Um, loan officers in, in, in banks, when they meet the small business owners that they've given the loans to, now they have this verve that this, this new, uh, uh, this energy. And so if you can... And by the way, the data shows that even if you read a letter from somebody, it won't has a- it won't has have power, as powerful an effect, but it still has a powerful effect. If you can put a name and a face on the experience, if you can bring in people who are benefited from your, from your efforts, you'll find that you'll f- have an energy for innovation and, and grit more than anything. So creativity and risk-taking and optimism, they're all, they all go together. They all go together. [claps]

   17. GSGreg Schulze28:24

       I heard a, I heard a clap and-

   18. SSSimon Sinek28:27

       [laughs]

   19. GSGreg Schulze28:28

       And I love, I love-

   20. SSSimon Sinek28:29

       That's what you call social clapping. One person clapped.

   21. GSGreg Schulze28:31

       One person. [laughs]

   22. SSSimon Sinek28:32

       Thank you.

   23. GSGreg Schulze28:32

       Thank you. Thank you.

   24. SSSimon Sinek28:33

       [laughs]

   25. GSGreg Schulze28:34

       But

9. 28:35 – 31:27

   The benefits of travel

   1. GSGreg Schulze28:35

      I'm glad that you called out the, the opportunity that this group has and the just cause o- of travel. It's why I've stayed in-

   2. SSSimon Sinek28:41

      Yeah

   3. GSGreg Schulze28:41

      ... the industry for a long time. What do you th- what do you think that we're doing really well right now that we, that... And, and how, how should we go forward with confidence and a just cause, whether we're, you know, n- regardless of where we are-

   4. SSSimon Sinek28:54

      Yeah

   5. GSGreg Schulze28:54

      ... in, in the travel industry?

   6. SSSimon Sinek28:56

      I, I, so I'll give cr- so give credit where credit is due, right? I think overall, the travel industry is doing a really good job of listening. I think, you know, in the past, less so. Less so. It's about efficiencies and numbers and how you can improve your margins, whatever it is you're doing, and which has its place, but should that be the first thing? You know? And I think, you know, I, I definitely f- feel that companies are making adjustments at every level of the experience, from the travel experience to the hotel experience to the website experience to all of it, that they're, that you seem to be paying a lot of attention to what we want and to what makes, what makes our experience the, the kind of experience that we want, and doing your best to give it to us, and I think that's, that's been, I think that's had a huge benefit. I mean, people, I think people are enjoying travel more. You know, it used to be that, like, travel is the thing that you did to get to the destination, and now travel is becoming part of, part of the experience overall. So I think overall it's, like, check-in experiences are better. Check-out experiences are better. Like, you know, I think, um, I, I think airlines are, airlines are working at it. Um, um-

   7. GSGreg Schulze29:57

      [laughs]

   8. SSSimon Sinek29:58

      It's a tough business.

   9. GSGreg Schulze29:59

      It is tough.

   10. SSSimon Sinek29:59

       Let's be honest.

   11. GSGreg Schulze30:00

       It is a tough business.

   12. SSSimon Sinek30:01

       Um, but, but I think overall the experiences, the experiences are a lot better, even the, even the customer experience, you know, when you're talking to a gate agent.

   13. GSGreg Schulze30:08

       Yeah.

   14. SSSimon Sinek30:08

       You know?

   15. GSGreg Schulze30:09

       And, and ultimately travel is a force for good, and we can-

   16. SSSimon Sinek30:12

       I think so

   17. GSGreg Schulze30:13

       ... we can do a lot with that.

   18. SSSimon Sinek30:14

       I think people who travel more, um, are more curious. I think people who travel more are more open-minded. I think people who travel more are more tolerant of people who aren't like them, who don't look like them, who don't sound like them, who have different views than them. And when I say travel, I'm not even talking international. I'm talking about domestic. You know? Just meeting people and seeing the world and interacting with people I think makes, dare I say it, but I think you may hold the recipe for world peace. Um, uh-

   19. GSGreg Schulze30:40

       [claps]

   20. SSSimon Sinek30:41

       I, I... And, and by the way, I'm being deadly serious. The less we travel, the more we stay focused on our phones and our TikToks and our Instagrams, the more judgmental we become, the more angry we become, the more we tune in only to news that agrees with us, and we become polarized and, and, and sometimes very angry at people for no discernible reason. The more we travel, the more we see the world, and the more we interact with people who aren't like us, they don't look like us, they don't sound like us, they don't feel like us, they don't think like us, the more tolerant, creative, and patient we become. And honestly, um, if we can start to view each other as human beings more, I genuinely, genuinely believe that the more people that you can get to travel, we are more likely to achieve world peace. That is 100% true.

   21. GSGreg Schulze31:21

       [claps] Ladies and gentlemen, Simon Sinek.

   22. SSSimon Sinek31:24

       Thank you. Thank you. Thanks.

Episode duration: 31:28