Simon SinekStop Telling Us Everything Happens for a Reason | Anti-Victim Tom Nash
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
65 min read · 13,398 words- 0:00 – 3:45
Adversity Can Be The Best Thing You Experience
- TNTom Nash
Are you gonna treat adversity like the conversation stopper, or is it a puzzle to be solved?
- SSSimon Sinek
Right. Your case is extreme, and it's different than this adversity that most people struggle in a day, but I like extreme cases because the lessons are easier to discern.
- TNTom Nash
For me, losing four limbs sounds like a bit of a shit sandwich to almost anyone who reads that story, but when I sit here and tell you it's the best thing that ever happened to me, and even you identify it as a gift, all of a sudden it becomes a really good story.
- SSSimon Sinek
Most of us have experienced some sort of adversity in our lives, and whether it's from well-intentioned friends or our own attempts to deal with our struggle, we often try to downplay how bad it is. "Things could be worse," we tell ourselves. "You still have your health." But what if there was another way, a better way to deal with stress? That's why I was excited to have Tom Nash on the show. At 19, he caught a bacterial infection which has a 2% chance of survival, but that's not the story. Because of the infection, he had to have both his legs and both his arms amputated. And how did he deal with it? He decided it was the best thing that ever happened to him. He went on to become one of Australia's most popular DJs and a highly acclaimed speaker. He's also the host of his own show, Last Meal with Tom Nash, where he serves his guests the meal they would want to have if the world was about to end. Tom is one of the best guests I have ever had on the show. He's smart, he's really funny, charming, and insanely inspiring, and he will leave you with the greatest lesson you can ever learn. When we have agency, we can more than get through anything, we can come through anything even better. If you like this episode, please remember to subscribe. This is A Bit of Optimism. Tom, thanks so much for, for coming in. I learned about you from a, a team member of ours who sent me your TED Talk.
- TNTom Nash
Oh, right. Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Uh, you're, you're a pirate. [laughs]
- TNTom Nash
That's [laughs] ... That's getting a bit long in the tooth now. I can't believe, uh, I can-
- SSSimon Sinek
It's still out there.
- TNTom Nash
It's still out there doing the rounds.
- SSSimon Sinek
I- just so people know what we're talking about, children stop you. [laughs]
- TNTom Nash
Yes.
- SSSimon Sinek
It was p- children stare.
- TNTom Nash
Yeah. Children do a lot of things. Um-
- SSSimon Sinek
Children do a lot of things.
- TNTom Nash
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
Well, let's, let's, let's go back.
- TNTom Nash
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
People stare.
- TNTom Nash
Yeah, sure. People stare, yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
People stare.
- TNTom Nash
Uh, yeah. So I've lost both arms and both legs. They don't really notice the leg thing because usually I'm wearing long pants, like I am now, and I'm pretty good at walking with prosthetic legs, so they don't really detect that. But the obvious thing is I have these two hooks that are in my-
- SSSimon Sinek
Oh my God, you have hooks.
- TNTom Nash
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- TNTom Nash
Yeah. You wouldn't, you wouldn't believe how much-
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- TNTom Nash
... that's a re- genuine response I get as well, like people pretending that they don't notice- [laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- TNTom Nash
... which is even more awkward. But yeah, yeah, kids, kids are the ones that will sort of like, there's no fourth wall there. They'll just go straight for you and ask you whether you're a pirate or not, or a robot, or something like that, and I just have to tell them that, yeah, of course I am.
- SSSimon Sinek
Of course.
- 3:45 – 7:47
Tom's Story: Contracting Meningococcal Disease
- SSSimon Sinek
19?
- TNTom Nash
Yes.
- SSSimon Sinek
Is that what it was?
- TNTom Nash
Yes.
- SSSimon Sinek
So I mean, you lived, I mean, into adulthood able-bodied.
- TNTom Nash
That's right, yeah. I was a, I was an able-bodied person until the age of 19. I was studying at university. I was, used to be a guitarist actually as well, uh, so music was a great passion of mine. And it was at one day at college, I went in and I felt a general malaise come over me as I was sitting, having coffee with a friend, waiting to go to a lecture, and I thought to myself, "I might just go home," because I was feeling like I was getting a flu.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- TNTom Nash
And so I, I took myself home and put myself to bed, and I had probably what felt like the worst flu I'd ever had in my life. If you've, if you've had a really bad flu, and you can imagine an order of magnitude more than that, that's kind of what I felt. So the night was really awful, and then the next morning I woke up, texted my stepsister, and I said, "You have to take me to hospital." Actually, I think I said, uh, "You have to take me to a doctor," not hospital, 'cause, uh, as a 19-year-old man, you always downplay-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm
- TNTom Nash
... [laughs] you know, the whole... She picked me up, took one look at me and said, "I'm taking you straight to hospital." She took me to a local hospital. I, uh, I remember they, they had to transfer me, 'cause they, they looked at me immediately and they said, "Oh, you know, you've got a purple rash all over your face and all over your body, and everything's swollen up. There's something wrong with you." They knew what it was, I didn't at the time. So they transferred me from a local hospital to one of the major hospitals in Sydney. And I say this is, 'cause it was, like, one of my last memories.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- TNTom Nash
I was in the back of a, an ambulance. I don't know if you've ever been in the back of an ambulance.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- TNTom Nash
And they have the paramedic that's, that's with you-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm
- TNTom Nash
... just to make sure you don't die-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm
- TNTom Nash
... or whatever it is. And I remember this guy like it was yesterday. He was very serious and he was very stern, and I made it my mission to make him laugh-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm
- TNTom Nash
... because I knew that I just needed to break this guy.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- TNTom Nash
I didn't know what was going on.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- TNTom Nash
And so I was making a couple of jokes, and there's... Nothing was happening. And then at one point I remember saying to him, "How long till we get to the hospital?" And he said, uh, "About 10 minutes." And I said, "10 minutes is what people say when they have no fucking idea how long it's gonna take to get somewhere, 'cause nothing takes 10 minutes, does it? It takes seven, it takes eight, it takes nine."
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- TNTom Nash
"It never takes 10. Maybe it takes 15 or 20."
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- TNTom Nash
And this made him laugh and had a bit of a chuckle, and we laughed together, and then I thought, "Okay, I've won this guy over."
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- TNTom Nash
At that point, I completely lose my memory.Well, what happened was I, I got admitted to the hospital, and they put me into a, a coma-
- 7:47 – 9:00
The Gift of Agency: Choosing to Amputate
- TNTom Nash
the arms." And I said, "Okay." And he said, uh, "As I see it, you have two options." And I said, "Okay, what are they?" He said, "We can amputate your arms. That's the first option." And, uh, it's pretty rare for people to live with two prosthetic arms, but he said, "It, it does happen, but you'll have to live with prosthetics." And I said, "I don't really like the sound of that. What's the other option?" And he said, uh, "We can leave them." And I said, "Okay, what's the catch?" And he said, uh, "Oh, you'll die." [laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- TNTom Nash
I see we sh- we share the same, uh, humor.
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- TNTom Nash
Um, [laughs] so after I'd had a bit of a chuckle at that, I, I realized that, um, apart from, like, tapping into the dark sense of humor-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- TNTom Nash
... uh, he was giving me a choice-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- TNTom Nash
... for the first time in this whole process.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- TNTom Nash
Because up until then, everything had been happening to me.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right. So-
- TNTom Nash
And I had no sense of agency-
- SSSimon Sinek
Right
- TNTom Nash
... in the whole process. And at that point, I mean, obviously, I was gonna say amputate the arms, right?
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- TNTom Nash
And that's the decision I made, obviously, if I'm sitting here in front of you, uh, having this conversation. What it did was it completely changed my mindset at that point because now I've made the decision to lose my arms, and it imbued me with that sense of agency.
- SSSimon Sinek
So you're not a victim of the amputation. But-
- TNTom Nash
It's interesting
- 9:00 – 13:48
The Anti-Victim Mindset: Rejecting Victimhood
- TNTom Nash
you use that word. I, I very much regard myself as an anti-victim.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- TNTom Nash
Uh, what I do in most of my life is, is try to, I, I think, rail against the concept of victimhood, generally speaking.
- SSSimon Sinek
There's a subtle but important detail here, which is the doctor gave you a choice.
- TNTom Nash
Mm. Yeah, that's right.
- SSSimon Sinek
I mean, that you had the agency, which makes you not the victim-
- TNTom Nash
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... because this is something that I chose.
- TNTom Nash
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
I wonder if you woke up one morning, and then the arms were gone, if, if that mentality would be the same, or it would've taken more work to get there.
- TNTom Nash
That's a really interesting question that no one's asked me before, and I'm not surprised that you're someone that picked up on that. [laughs] But yeah, absolutely. Like, the i- the idea that you actually make the decision imbues you with a deeper sense of agency much quicker.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah, even, even, even if it's, even if it's a fake decision.
- TNTom Nash
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
You know? I mean, it's like it's a choice-ish.
- TNTom Nash
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
But, but you get to say, "Got it. Let's do it."
- TNTom Nash
That's right. And I think what that points to mostly is that almost everything in our life is the story we tell ourselves.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- TNTom Nash
And everything is a reframe, or it can be.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- TNTom Nash
And so you can choose to look at things that have happened historically as something that you had input in and so- or something that you didn't.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- TNTom Nash
And I think people's ability to make that distinction is what decides whether they have the agency moving forward and what they can do with what's happened to them.
- SSSimon Sinek
This is so interesting 'cause when I sat down with you, I thought, "Okay, this is gonna be a conversation about the importance of sense of humor."
- TNTom Nash
Right. [laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
I thought this was gonna be a conversation about-
- TNTom Nash
Yeah. [laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
... when life gives you lemons-
- TNTom Nash
Yeah, yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... you know? [laughs]
- 13:48 – 16:18
Anti-Fragility: Gaining Advantages From Disability
- TNTom Nash
for me, I've found what I call anti-fragility. This is a topic that you would know well, was developed by Nassim Taleb.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- TNTom Nash
Usually with respects to complex systems, he's a, you know, market analyst or sh- you know, options trader, whatever it is. But I think it applies just as much in psychology than anything else because the human mind is a, is a complex system. And so what I've identified in my own life along the way is, like, what advantages have come through having a disability for me? Uh, you mentioned my TED Talk actually before, which is The Perks Of Being A Pirate. W- we, we talked about the idea of being a pirate, but the, the salience be- underneath that is the perks of what are the advantages of having a disability. I mean, when I look back on my life now and what I've become, I'm a better problem solver. I'm a more, people say resilient person, but I'm, I'm a more anti-fragile person. I believe that there are so many advantages that I've had having a disability-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm
- TNTom Nash
... just completely in my mindset and the way that I approach life, that that's the balance.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- TNTom Nash
Humor isn't the balance.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- TNTom Nash
The balance is, how can I flip the script on this and make it something that's positive? And that's effectively the lens through which I, I view life these days-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm
- TNTom Nash
... is, you know, how can I develop habits that are anti-fragile effectively.
- SSSimon Sinek
Emotionally as well?
- TNTom Nash
Yeah, absolutely. I think-
- SSSimon Sinek
'Cause physically, clearly you have-
- TNTom Nash
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... to solve problems. You have to figure out how to, you know, work in the world.
- TNTom Nash
That's right. Yeah, yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
But are you more anti-fragile and better at solving emotional problems, relationships, you know, conflict at work-
- TNTom Nash
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... you know? Is that-
- TNTom Nash
I think so. When I talk to a lot of people, and particularly in business, about anti-fragility, it's important to know that, like, I don't think it's a binary thing, that you're, you're either anti-fragile or you're not.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- TNTom Nash
And I think people get, uh, uh, very caught up being like, "Am I optimizing my response," you know, "for positive upside optionality all the time?" [laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- TNTom Nash
I don't think you need to be all the time, but once you develop, like, the habit of doing it, and you get better at it, even if two out of five situations you can flip into a positive-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm
- TNTom Nash
... there will be a net benefit over time.
- SSSimon Sinek
When something happens to us-
- TNTom Nash
Mm
- SSSimon Sinek
... and, and we're all susceptible to it, like, "Ugh, why me?"
- 16:18 – 23:40
The Three Characters: Artist, Author, and Alchemist
- TNTom Nash
that I use day to day. Um, I have, like, three characters that I can play in various different situations, and I call them the artist, the author, and the alchemist, and they're for d- very different applications. And if you think about these things as actual characters, I like to think of them as people.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- TNTom Nash
So the artist is somebody who paints perspective, right? I mean, artists always work with perspective. If you think about it like a, a photographer who can zoom in or zoom out of a particular situation, so that kind of oscillates between, like, a narrow and a broad framing of something. I think that being able to change your perspective on any situation at any given time is a skill that you can develop. You know, an example of this would be if you're drowning in the minutiae of your life and work or something like that, it's useful to zoom out and appreciate that you live in a really good country, or you have a spouse that's supportive, or you have a great family or friends network, or your life is on the right track. Maybe if those things are actually all catching fire, it's better off to oscillate that framing again and zoom in and appreciate a moment like spending time with your dog on the couch or having a cup of coffee with your spouse or something like that. Anyone has the choice to be able to make that decision at any point in their life. You can run through an exercise whereby, you know, today is another day you didn't get an email telling you you have bowel cancer.
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- TNTom Nash
Right? It sounds fucking ridiculous on the offset, right? But, but today is that day for you and I both.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- TNTom Nash
And if you put yourself in the mental head space where that is a possibility-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm
- TNTom Nash
... it does actually lighten the problems that you're going through now.
- SSSimon Sinek
You know what I like about it, is it works because it's specific. Whereas, you know, usually when something bad happens in somebody's life, you usually get the pabulum of, like, you have your health-
- TNTom Nash
Mm
- SSSimon Sinek
... which is this kind of generic, kind of like... It's the same kind of idea-
- TNTom Nash
That's a default, yeah, yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... you know? But it's such a-... generic thought. It's too hard to say, "Yeah, sure."
- TNTom Nash
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
It's, it's too hard to appreciate something so broad and general, right?
- TNTom Nash
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Whereas when you say, "You know, you don't have bowel cancel- bowel cancer today."
- TNTom Nash
[laughs] Bowel cancer today, yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
You know, it's kinda like, yeah, it's a, it's a good point, you know?
- TNTom Nash
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
It's like, it, it's the specificity-
- TNTom Nash
Mm
- SSSimon Sinek
... of the... This is why I like your concept of the photographer. It's the specificity of it.
- TNTom Nash
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Not like, "Hey, life is good," but rather-
- TNTom Nash
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... just take a step back. Look what you've got.
- TNTom Nash
That's right.
- SSSimon Sinek
You know?
- 23:40 – 26:57
Learning to Walk Again: The Power of Momentum
- TNTom Nash
along the way. Having that agency, that sense of agency of losing my arms was one marker. Another marker was, you know, walking for myself unassisted, which would've been about eight or nine months after I first went into hospital. Actually, the story about the first time I walked, like unassisted was a bit interesting, because I had these two prosthetic legs put on me, and in the beginning I had a person holding me under one arm and a person holding me under another, and then there were a person on each leg, like moving my leg forward. So I started with, like five people when, when I first started to learn to walk again with prosthetics, and as it would get better and better, I would lose people. So I lost the people on each leg 'cause I could move the leg by myself, and then I just sort of needed balance, so I lost one person to my left and I just had this person to my right holding me for balance. The longest period was when I just had him. He was just a wardsman.And he would hold me under my arm, and every day we would go for little bits of walks around the grounds of the hospital. I remember I couldn't work out what it was that I couldn't walk on my own, and I thought to myself, I'm like, "It's balance. I don't have the, the balance," right? And I had this fear of him letting me go because I didn't... He, he was giving me the balance. And it was just this one day that I'm l- walking along with him.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- TNTom Nash
And I remember we're walking, and I'm starting to pick up a little bit of speed, more speed than, than I had previously. And I said to him, "Okay, let me go." I don't think he was supposed to let me go. Like, it was probably had... He might have got in trouble for that [laughs] by the hospital administrators if he'd done it, but he, he could see in my eye that I was ready, and he let me go. And as soon as he let me go, I just started picking up more and more speed, and what I got was momentum.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- TNTom Nash
And the momentum was actually what gave me the balance that I needed.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- TNTom Nash
So what was happening is he was holding-
- SSSimon Sinek
Kind of like a bicycle
- TNTom Nash
... It's like a bicycle, right?
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- TNTom Nash
So he's holding my arm, and I'm thinking he's giving me balance, but he was actually holding me back.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- TNTom Nash
And I, I didn't realize that, right?
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- TNTom Nash
And so I realized at that point-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm
- TNTom Nash
... that the momentum, which was... That was what was giving me balance, and that's w- what propelling me forward, and it was only fear that was stopping me from, from having him let go.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- TNTom Nash
So that was another milestone along the way, right? And so when I say that, you know, it wasn't like waking up to-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- TNTom Nash
... the next day and being like, "Oh, I'm fine now, and everything's positive." No. It's iterative, and you have little moments like this over the course-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm
- TNTom Nash
... of, like, a year or so.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- TNTom Nash
And you know what? That, that hasn't stopped happening. I still have moments like that, that just make life better and better. Just don't have the ones that make life worse. [laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- TNTom Nash
That's my only recommendation.
- SSSimon Sinek
This is such a good insight, which is we go to friends in times of struggle and hardship for help, of course, and it is much easier for us to get through struggle and hardship when somebody is by our side metaphorically holding us up-
- TNTom Nash
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... giving us balance, making us feel like, "You know what? I can walk. Thank you for being by my side." But there is a point where the friend's love and the friend's intention of holding us up is actually holding us back.
- 26:57 – 41:52
The Value of Support Networks: Debt of Honor
- TNTom Nash
Yeah. It's a dependency. You know what I, I learnt about support networks during my period in hospital is... And I had a great support network. Like-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm
- TNTom Nash
... not just people who are paid, like doctors and nurses, but family and friends and things like that. And everybody kinda thinks that the support network is good because of what people do for you.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- TNTom Nash
I actually found out that f- for me at least, and I think this is for everyone, support networks are useful because you feel like you owe these people something once they commit to you.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- TNTom Nash
Right?
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- TNTom Nash
It creates a debt of honor-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm
- TNTom Nash
... effectively. So you want to get better yourself because they've invested in you, and they believe in you. I think that's happening for everyone who has support, whether they see it or not.
- SSSimon Sinek
You don't wanna let them down.
- TNTom Nash
Yeah. You don't wanna let them down.
- SSSimon Sinek
They, they sacrifice for you.
- TNTom Nash
That's right. Yeah, yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
They gave to you, and you wanna make sure that their sacrifice was worth it.
- TNTom Nash
That's it. I think that's, that's the best aspect of support networks.
- SSSimon Sinek
I, I mean, this is, this is what it means to be human, right?
- TNTom Nash
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Which is... And I, and, and this is... When, all these discussions about AI and all of these things, the problem with technologists is they always leave the people out.
- TNTom Nash
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And they forget that people are still people, and we're gonna be people all the time.
- TNTom Nash
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
And the technology's great, and it supports us, like, they always forget the people part, and so much of people and humanity and humanness we don't fully understand, or we unders- only understand in, in, in sort of, uh, silos, you know?
- TNTom Nash
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Various social disciplines, psychology and sociology and, you know, psychiatry and all the rest. And, but there's so much we don't understand and get, and it's this idea of pride and not wanting to let people down, and that the value of a friend is not just that they were there. You know, it's like when a, when a kid graduates high school or, or university, and they're walking across the, the stage to receive their diploma, and there's this sense of pride.
- TNTom Nash
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
But the parents and the friends and the family sitting in the audience also have this incredible sense of pride, and it's this shared feeling-
- TNTom Nash
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... that we have with each other. It's called relationship. It's called love.
- 41:52 – 47:37
The Leadership Lesson: Joel Robuchon and Leading From the Sidelines
- TNTom Nash
You had this quote that I really love, and now I can't really work out how it said, but I'm sure you'll be able to correct me. It's something like, it's about leadership is not about being in charge of people, but taking care of the people-
- SSSimon Sinek
Oh, it's not-
- TNTom Nash
... who are in your charge
- SSSimon Sinek
... leadership is not about being in charge. Leader- leadership is about taking th- care of those in your charge.
- TNTom Nash
That's it, right?
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- TNTom Nash
I always loved that, and it made me think of this-
- SSSimon Sinek
Thank you
- TNTom Nash
... story that I wanted to tell you about a chef called, uh, we were talking about food before we started rolling, and, and in particular in Paris. Do you know a guy called Joel Robuchon?
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- TNTom Nash
Yeah. So the first time I ever went to his restaurant, this would've been, like, 20 years ago, I met him, 'cause he was sort of walking around the restaurant. He was a really sweet old guy. He came around, he just talked to all of the customers and everything. I remember saying to him, he was like, "Oh, what, you know, how's your night going?" And I said, "Oh, can you give me a recommendation on what to eat?" And he said, "What do you like?" And I said, "I like to be surprised." And he said, "Steak and mashed potato." And I was like, "Okay, that's not very surprising," but it was a very surprising steak and mashed potato. I've never had anything like it in my life, so he was right. But what I noticed is that he was pottering around the kitchen-While the, you know, they've got 20 chefs or whatever doing whatever
- SSSimon Sinek
I never ate there, but sure
- TNTom Nash
Right, yeah. And he's sort of pottering around and, like, looking, you know. And the next time I went back there, I sat up at the bar, because that's kind of the experience.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- TNTom Nash
And I had one of the chefs in front of me, and I was talking to him, and I said, "Oh, is Robuchon in tonight?" And he's like, "No, no, no." And he's, he got really excited. He's like, "But he was in a week ago." And he's like, "You know, we really love him here. He's like a grandfather to us."
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- TNTom Nash
And I was like, okay, that's a weird thing for a sous chef to say or whatever it is. But I was... And I was chatting to him a little bit about it, and I was like, you know, "What is it you love about J- Robuchon?" And he said, "Oh, you know, he's just, he's just like having a grandfather around, and he doesn't get in your way or anything. But he'll come up and, you know, if you're doing something wrong, he, like, he doesn't yell at you. He, he'll take the knife off you, and he'll, like, teach you a bit of a technique. He'll show you how he does it, and then he'll hand the knife back to you." I remember thinking, that's a very unique style of leadership, right?
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- TNTom Nash
And it was kinda like leading from the side- sidelines-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm
- TNTom Nash
... but not getting angry about people. Anyway, the third time I was meant to go there, I'd made a reservation. It was like a Monday night. This is many years later now. It was tw- 2018, I think it was. And I remember getting a text from a friend. He said, "What are you doing tonight?" I'm s- I said, "I'm actually going down to L'Atelier." And he said, "Oh, didn't you hear? Robuchon died today." And I was just like... I don't know, my, my stomach dropped, and I was just like, fuck, like, should I cancel my reservation? I'm like, no, no, that's ridiculous. Like, go down there or whatever. So I went down there that night, and all of the staff were wearing black armbands.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- TNTom Nash
Like, they loved this guy so much.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- TNTom Nash
And I, I remember sitting at the bar again, and I was talking to them, and one of them said to me, um, "He's taught me everything that I know, and all I wanna do now is become the best version of myself that I could ever be."
- SSSimon Sinek
Wow.
- TNTom Nash
Robuchon is, I mean, for anyone listening to this who doesn't know who he is, arguably the best chef of all time. I think he's got, like, over 30 Michelin stars, and he's widely regarded as, like, a kingmaker in the culinary industry. You know, he... Gordon Ramsay and, uh, ma- many others who have come up or were influenced by him, Eric Ripert, stuff like that. That was his thing. He would harbor people and, and teach them to be-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm
- TNTom Nash
... um, the best that they could be. And, you know, at the ripe age that he was, I forget, he was in his 80s or 90s or something like that, he didn't become this, like, culinary despot at any point.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- 47:37 – 1:00:48
The Last Meal Philosophy: What Your Food Choices Reveal
- TNTom Nash
Obviously, it's different for everybody, but when I ask a person to choose a meal for their last meal, I'm usually trying to get them to trigger something about themselves. It could be, like, a moment in time that they remember fondly, or it could be something about... You know, it could be their childhood or something that their mother made them or something like that. And a lot of people in the beginning will just, the knee-jerk reaction is that something that they really like eating.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- TNTom Nash
And I usually push back on that, and I'm like, "Just stop thinking in that way. Like, let's pick something that means something to you." And this is where it gets interesting because what they'll choose is usually correlated with a time in their life where they felt they had more freedom.
- SSSimon Sinek
Oh, interesting. Say more.
- TNTom Nash
Well-
- SSSimon Sinek
Give an example
- TNTom Nash
... Tim Urban.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- TNTom Nash
Um, he picked pad thai, and it was because it, it reminded him of, of a time that he was traveling a lot. It's not that he doesn't travel now, but he would like to travel more than he did. But when he was traveling when he was 19 years old, you know, he was traveling around Asia for the first time, and the pad thai just reminded him of that, of that period. Uh, M- Masih Alinejad, the Iranian journalist-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm
- TNTom Nash
... chose ghormeh sabzi, which is a, um, Persian dish, beef stew, that she hadn't had since when she was back in Iran. Now, it would be foolish to think that she was free when she was there, but she was certainly connected to her family when she was.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- TNTom Nash
And I think that's something that she longs for. And soUh, w- another, another question that I ask people actually in some of these interviews is, if you could repeat a year of your life, you don't get to change anything, but you just go back and press play on it again, what would that be? And, and invariably people choose a time in their life where they felt they were the most free. Now, that changes for some people.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- TNTom Nash
For some people it's like, "Well, last year." I find that people with a high sense of agency pick more recent times.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- TNTom Nash
Um, and then some people, uh, they remember their college years or something like that as feeling more liberated and-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm
- TNTom Nash
... and tend to anchor towards that.
- SSSimon Sinek
I'm so interested in how they chose a meal when they, to reclaim something.
- TNTom Nash
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
You know, that the meal reminded them of something that they either lost or a part of their personality that they're, that they like, you know, to, to highlight. Um, what, what would... Did you... I mean, obviously you've thought about this. What would yours be?
- TNTom Nash
It changes all the time. My current choice of last meal is, uh, an English roast-
- SSSimon Sinek
Oh
- TNTom Nash
... cooked by, specifically by my aunt, who is British, lives in England, and it has to be in winter.
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- TNTom Nash
Okay?
- SSSimon Sinek
Very specific.
- TNTom Nash
Yeah. My, my, my aunt lives in, in England, and my, my dad's British, although they, they both sort of were born and raised in Bahrain, but she, she lives there now, and I used to go over. My, my grandparents, when they were alive, I used to visit them when I was young. And obviously I would go in when it was Australian holidays, and Australian holidays for summer, it's hot over there, but then it's freezing in England. So I'd go over quite often when it was really cold.
- SSSimon Sinek
Uh-huh.
- 1:00:48 – 1:01:59
Stop Saying Everything Happens for a Reason
- TNTom Nash
And I mean, I think the thing that always annoys me about people saying that things happen for a reason is that that robs you of any ability to imbue meaning on things yourself.
- SSSimon Sinek
On your own. And what a perfect way to summarize what you and I have just talked about-
- TNTom Nash
Mm
- SSSimon Sinek
... which is just as sometimes we can't make sense of why things happen to us, not everything is for some predestined reason why they happen to us, because then it robs us of the agency that we get to choose why things are happening to us. We get to choose what we get to do with those things, and we get to choose the lessons that are meant to be learned.
- TNTom Nash
Perfect. I mean, exactly as I expected. You said what I thought, but way better. I'm like, "Can you be a bit more Simon Sinek about that?" You're like, "Yeah, watch this." [laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
Well, thanks for the setup. [laughs]
- TNTom Nash
Thanks for having me.
- SSSimon Sinek
Tom, what a joy.
- TNTom Nash
It's been awesome.
- SSSimon Sinek
What an absolute joy. As always, thank you for watching. If you liked this episode, please subscribe to A Bit of Optimism for more interesting guests and even more interesting conversations. New episodes drop every Tuesday. But if you'd like more optimism right now, click here to watch another episode. Until next time, take care of yourself, take care of each other.
Episode duration: 1:02:00
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