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The Beautiful Brilliance of Boredom with creative polymath Elle Cordova | A Bit of Optimism Podcast

We’re wired to chase the next spark—scrolling, swiping, refreshing—but some of our brightest ideas sneak in when we stop chasing, let boredom settle in, and give our minds room to wander. Elle Cordova knows the power of that pause. When the pandemic hit pause on her life as a touring musician, she stumbled into new creative territory—making offbeat comedy videos about delightfully nerdy topics like particle physics, grammar, and fonts. Those sketches went viral, and suddenly she was thriving as a social media creator with a devoted following. In this episode, we talk about finding what truly lights you up, pushing through writer’s block, working with anxiety—and yes, Star Wars makes an appearance (because of course it does). Plus, Elle treats us to a live, in-studio performance of her song Roswell. This…is A Bit of Optimism. For more on Elle, check out: https://www.ellecordova.com/ --------------------------- This episode is brought to you by True Classic! I really love their T-shirts, so we called them up and asked if they wanted to work together. And they said yes! Check out their clothes at: http://trueclassictees.com/ --------------------------- + + + Simon is an unshakable optimist. He believes in a bright future and our ability to build it together. Described as “a visionary thinker with a rare intellect,” Simon has devoted his professional life to help advance a vision of the world that does not yet exist; a world in which the vast majority of people wake up every single morning inspired, feel safe wherever they are and end the day fulfilled by the work that they do. Simon is the author of multiple best-selling books including Start With Why, Leaders Eat Last, Together is Better, and The Infinite Game. + + + Website: http://simonsinek.com/ Live Online Classes: https://simonsinek.com/classes/ Podcast: http://apple.co/simonsinek Instagram: https://instagram.com/simonsinek/ Linkedin: https://linkedin.com/in/simonsinek/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/simonsinek Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/simonsinek Simon’s books: The Infinite Game: https://simonsinek.com/books/the-infinite-game/ Start With Why: https://simonsinek.com/books/start-with-why/ Find Your Why: https://simonsinek.com/books/find-your-why/ Leaders Eat Last: https://simonsinek.com/books/leaders-eat-last/ Together is Better: https://simonsinek.com/books/together-is-better/ + + + #SimonSinek

Elle CordovaguestSimon Sinekhost
Aug 12, 20251h 5mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 0:30

    Counting cards for mom: the accidental casino ban

    1. EC

      I've been backed off and banned from probably close to like six, seven casinos now in Vegas. And unfortunately, they're all my mom's favorite casinos, so we can't go there anymore.

    2. SS

      You're not-

    3. EC

      She, she's told me to stop. So-

    4. SS

      So I love this, that all you wanted to do was be a good daughter-

    5. EC

      [laughs]

    6. SS

      ... celebrate your mom's birthday, and now you're banned from half a dozen casinos in Las Vegas.

    7. EC

      [laughs] I know. It's a funny turn of events. But yeah, I blame my mom.

    8. SS

      [laughs] It's your mother.

    9. EC

      She, she brought me there.

    10. SS

      I mean, it's always childhood trauma.

    11. EC

      Exactly.

    12. SS

      Isn't it?

    13. EC

      I, I just wanted to sit with her longer and have-

    14. SS

      [laughs]

    15. EC

      ... have more drinks, so.

  2. 0:30 – 2:44

    Meet Elle Cordova: polymath, poet, musician—and boredom advocate

    1. SS

      Two introverts walk into a bar. Let's be honest, that's not happening. But here's what did happen. Two introverts sat down for a conversation about creativity and the importance of boredom. Yes, boredom. It turns out boredom is underrated. It can actually be a remarkable source of calm and creativity, which a lot of introverts may already know. That was definitely the case for Elle Cordova. She's a singer-songwriter, a poet, and a certified nerd who in the isolation of lockdown discovered a creativity she didn't know she had. The result? Well, I'm sure a lot of you have seen her sketch about fonts at a party or her poem about the Big Bang, both of which went very viral. Before the Big Bang, there was no up, there was no down, there was no side to side.

    2. EC

      There was no up, there was no down, there was no side to side. There was no light, there was no dark nor shape of any kind. There were no stars or planet Mars or protons to collide. There was no up, there was no down, there was no side to side. And furthermore, to underscore this total lacking state, there was no here, there was no there, because there was no space. And in this endless void, which can't be thought of as a place, there was no time, and so no passing minutes, hours, days.

    3. SS

      I first learned about Elle when I stumbled on her song Roswell, which if you stick around, she plays live for us at the end of the episode. And if you're a nerd, you'll appreciate our chat about Star Wars archetypes and how we need to give boredom a rebrand, which turns out isn't boring at all. This is A Bit of Optimism. True Classic is sponsoring today's episode. Fun story, I met Ryan, their CEO, over lunch, and I was like, "I really like this guy." That's why we're proud to work with them and have them as our sponsor. You are a perfect example of why it's important to meet your heroes. [laughs]

    4. EC

      Aw. I'm not sure if I, if I'm, if I'm taking this the right way.

    5. SS

      Because, you know, you, they always say never meet your heroes 'cause you're always disappointed.

    6. EC

      Yeah.

  3. 2:44 – 5:36

    From stage name to polymath reputation: curiosity as a life strategy

    1. SS

      I found you and your work w- from music. I found your song, uh, Roswell, when you had a different name. What was your name?

    2. EC

      Rayna Del Sid.

    3. SS

      Right, you- [laughs]

    4. EC

      Yeah

    5. SS

      ... had a stage name.

    6. EC

      I had a stage name.

    7. SS

      You had a stage name. Then I found out that's not your name. So I knew you as a musician, started following you on the Instagram. Then I find out that you're a poet and a smart person and a nerd, and you are the personification of a polymath. I reached out to you on the Instagram, slid into your DMs-

    8. EC

      You did

    9. SS

      ... and said, "Hey." And you wrote back, and we got together and f- and, and nerd bonded, I guess-

    10. EC

      Yeah

    11. SS

      ... is what it was. And-

    12. EC

      Turns out you're this, you're cut from a similar nerd cloth.

    13. SS

      Yeah. You are even better than I thought you were when I saw you on the internets.

    14. EC

      Aw, thank you, Simon.

    15. SS

      Um-

    16. EC

      And the same is true of you.

    17. SS

      Aw, thanks. And when we just, I think we can just cut right here is [laughs] like I think-

    18. EC

      Job well-

    19. SS

      Our work, our work is done. Job well done. But y- but, but going back to this idea of a polymath, uh, a polymath is somebody who is, has diverse interests, learned across many things. And you have curiosities and talents in many places. You are, I think, have become famous for your poetry on social media. You've done a TED Talk about your poetry. You are a musician. You are extremely well-read. You know a lot about science. You are a lover of science fiction. You seem to know not a little bit about a lot of things, but a lot about a lot of things. Intimidatingly so, I might add.

    20. EC

      [laughs]

    21. SS

      Were you always... Like, where is that from? Like, what's your journey of, of discovery and, and, and how you have so many curiosities, but also that you're good at those things? It's not just, you know, good at one thing and have a couple things on the side.

    22. EC

      Yeah. Well, I, I, I don't know how much is what you just said is true. I-

    23. SS

      All of it is true.

    24. EC

      Okay. Well, we'll, we'll, we'll go with your premise. Um, I think for me, it's just, I've always been a very curious person, so curiosity, and you've s- you've said the word a couple times when you were speaking just there, curiosity is like sort of my motivating force in life. And what I'm trying to do with the content or art or whatever that I put out on the internet or put out wherever for people to consume is to try to spark a little bit of the same curiosity. And I want people to consume, you know, whether it's music or poetry or just, you know, random inane thoughts that I post to the, to the Instagram, whatever it might be, I just hope people see that, get this little bit of like resonant spark of curiosity in themselves and then are either motivated to create their own thing or to like look up the concept I'm talking about. And I, I wouldn't say I know a lot about a lot of things. I just think I've been very curious about a lot of things. Gotten-

    25. SS

      No, more than a little.

    26. EC

      Well, okay. And I've gotten to know enough about enough things that it just like keeps lighting the fire, and I always find like new things to-

  4. 5:36 – 8:22

    Where curiosity came from: family influence, English lit, and Fargo introversion

    1. SS

      Where did the curiosity come from? Was it nature or nurture?

    2. EC

      Well, my dad is a really curious person, so he, he was like a really like, one of those guys that's like breaks teachers' hearts, where he, he was really s- smart and he would, he was curiousBut he, you couldn't get him to finish an assignment or something, you know? But he would like read on his own. He'd read the things you're not supposed to be reading about. He'd just go and check out a book about trigonometry when they were trying to teach them about, you know, algebra or something. So it's like if you taught him, if you tried to teach him something, he wouldn't learn it, but if you let him loose in a place of knowledge, he will be hungry and he'll do it. So I think I got a little bit of that from him, although I'm more of a rule follower, so I went and got the degree and [laughs] and everything. Less of a rebel.

    3. SS

      What'd you get your degree in?

    4. EC

      I majored in English, so I got a degree in English literature from the University of Minnesota.

    5. SS

      So that makes sense.

    6. EC

      Yeah. So English, I mean, to me, that's just like a gateway to books, like all kinds of books and knowledge and stories from everywhere. So it-

    7. SS

      It-

    8. EC

      ... it's kind of like majoring in everything.

    9. SS

      And, and how did you... 'Cause you grew up in Fargo?

    10. EC

      Yeah.

    11. SS

      Grew up in Fargo, North Dakota. Shout out to Fargo.

    12. EC

      Shout out to Fargo.

    13. SS

      Did growing up in Fargo, it's cold, there's a lot of snow, it's not big.

    14. EC

      Right.

    15. SS

      Did that contrib- Is that the nurture part of the curiosity? Like Itzhak Perlman, for example. He has polio, so when all the other kids go out to play, he can't go out to play, so what does he h- do? He stays home and plays the violin, and he becomes one of the best violinists in the world, right?

    16. EC

      Yeah. Or like Isaac Newton, you know, d- c- coming through his breakthroughs like during a time of plague because what else are you gonna do? He's like trapped in a, trapped in quarantine, you know?

    17. SS

      Oh, right.

    18. EC

      Yeah. Sometimes I think restrictive environments can definitely lead to like a, an expansion of mind.

    19. SS

      And was that the case for you?

    20. EC

      I think so. I mean, I think probably more than the, the cold environment, although that was, that's definitely true of Fargo, and if you ever go there, you'll see. It's like, it's not, it's just this unrelenting, bitter, the bitter winds coming across the plains with nothing to stop them, and it's very, very cold. Um, less so now because of certain global changes that are happening. Um, but yeah, I think that's part of it, but I think the probably the bigger part is just this, just introversion. You know? Just I have always been so cripplingly shy, and it's just easier for me to stay in on a Friday night with a book than to like make myself go out and socialize. So I was, even before the age of social media, I was probably spending too much time, you know, alone and not with a phone, but with, you know, books and, and-

    21. SS

      Paper, paper device

    22. EC

      ... and like notebooks and stuff.

    23. SS

      So basically the polymathitude of it all is a defense mechanism to not wanting to socialize.

    24. EC

      Yeah.

    25. SS

      And so you accidentally be- 'cause like the, Itzhak Perlman, it's like you accidentally become incredibly good at something when all you were trying to do was not do the other thing.

    26. EC

      Yeah, exactly. Escapism maybe.

    27. SS

      Escapism.

    28. EC

      Yeah.

  5. 8:22 – 10:30

    Introverts socializing: performance, practice, and the hidden inner monologue

    1. SS

      Yeah. That's... And, I mean, I remember when you and I first got together, um, we're both, uh, socially awkward for first time meetings, and second and third and fourth.

    2. EC

      You are not. You, you say that, I've heard you say that elsewhere. You are so warm and welcoming, and you're like actually an introvert's dream. When you first, you know, when I first met you, I was like, "Oh, this, this person puts me at ease."

    3. SS

      Well, that's very kind of you to say, but it is all, it is all practice. Uh-

    4. EC

      That makes sense

    5. SS

      ... because, like, if I'm not working, 'cause that's work. I'm not naturally like that.

    6. EC

      Yeah.

    7. SS

      So if I'm not working, I will sit there awkwardly and sort of be like, "Be funny, be funny. Say something. Say something." You know?

    8. EC

      Right.

    9. SS

      And so it's only through practice that I've learned to sort of ask questions and create a s- an environment where... But, but by the way, it also produces insecurity being the introvert because I don't, I don't wanna hold court. If I create a space and you're sort of one-word answers and sort of n- head nods, I'm like, "Have I done something wrong?"

    10. EC

      Yeah.

    11. SS

      You know? It's like, so it, it does, it, all of the introvert, um, weirdness inside my brain is still happening.

    12. EC

      Well, you hide it very well. It-

    13. SS

      Well, thank you.

    14. EC

      Yeah. Makes it much easier to talk to you.

    15. SS

      Well, thanks.

    16. EC

      Yeah.

    17. SS

      Um-

    18. EC

      Maybe, maybe you should start a podcast.

    19. SS

      Yeah, it would be good. It wouldn't-

    20. EC

      [laughs]

    21. SS

      It, yeah. A, a, a podcast by introverts for introverts.

    22. EC

      I mean, that's basically what it, what it is.

    23. SS

      We just sit here awkwardly.

    24. EC

      [laughs]

    25. SS

      And people driving on their commute just listening to sort of two people fidgeting and without the inner thoughts. Wouldn't that be even better if you could have the... Like, if the concept of like a cartoon with a thought bubble, if there was a technology that you could hear the actual thought bubbles of people-

    26. EC

      Yeah

    27. SS

      ... I would love that.

    28. EC

      I would too, although I'd be really anxious about what my thought bubbles are saying.

    29. SS

      So you'd have to have a thought bubble of the thought bubble.

    30. EC

      Yeah, yeah.

  6. 10:30 – 18:23

    Advantage play 101: why blackjack, how card counting works, and why casinos hate it

    1. EC

      I wouldn't call myself a gambler. I would call myself an advantage player. There's a difference. A gambler is somebody who sits down at a, at a slot machine or a table game just playing by the rules of the house and playing without an edge, you know? And then a, an advantage player has an edge, so-

    2. SS

      But you are engaging in gambling.

    3. EC

      Yeah, sure. I guess if you wanna call it-

    4. SS

      It's like somebody who drinks is a drinker-

    5. EC

      Okay [laughs]

    6. SS

      ... and somebody who gambles is a gambler. [laughs]

    7. EC

      Yeah. I think if you talk to like the, the world of the advantage players, like they get really prickly about being called ga-

    8. SS

      Advantage players

    9. EC

      It's a, it's a world out there.

    10. SS

      [laughs] They're just trying to distinguish themselves from like the tourist at Vegas sitting at the slot machine.

    11. EC

      Yeah. Well, a- or the degenerate gambler.

    12. SS

      Or the degenerate gambler.

    13. EC

      Yeah.

    14. SS

      Okay. Um, okay. So you're an advantaged, ad- advantage player, and blackjack is your game?

    15. EC

      Yeah, and this all started because I... See, I was like f- you know, phobic of casinos, I would say. Like, you know, in the way where it's just like that's a, that's a place where you go to lose your money. Like, why would anyone spend time in casinos? But my mom is a big fan of Vegas. She's a gambler, and she loves doing that, so she goes there every year for her birthday. When I was 16, she told me, "When I turn 60, you're gonna come with me to Vegas." And then when she turned 60, I kept my word and I came with her, and I looked at, I just Googled like what is the game that I can play while I'm in Vegas that's gonna lose me the least amount of money? Turned out to be blackjack, and that's because you can have, you can literally just memorize, they call it basic strategy, memorize the right hand for every, the right, the, the right play for every hand.

    16. SS

      It's your, it's, it, there's odds.

    17. EC

      Yeah.

    18. SS

      It's, like-

    19. EC

      It's math

    20. SS

      ... the sta- the sta- it's math. The statistics of whether you're likely to hit, get an advantage or disadvantage based on... pure odds. There's more 10 cards than any other card in the deck, et cetera, et cetera.

    21. EC

      Exactly.

    22. SS

      And so if you memorize that-

    23. EC

      Yeah

    24. SS

      ... also-

    25. EC

      There's a right play for everything

    26. SS

      ... also known as counting cards.

    27. EC

      Okay. Well-

    28. SS

      [laughs]

    29. EC

      ... that's not counting cards, but, but memorizing is the first step, so-

    30. SS

      Well, memorizing the shoe is the counting the cards part. Like, how many have cards?

  7. 18:23 – 20:18

    Pandemic pivot: touring burnout, creative recovery, and accidental virality

    1. EC

      No. No, definitely did not. And, um, really what happened was that I was, I was very much just all in on the musician career. That's what I did for 10 years. I was touring and, and then, you know, I was kind of picking up steam as we went along. We were slowly grow- growing, and we had these tours set up in, like, Europe and Australia, and then bam, the, the pandemic happened. Everything got canceled. Everything we had planned out for that year got canceled, and my first thought was like, "Oh, no, all the money that we're gonna lose," and like, "How will we pay the bills?" And then my second thought was like, "Thank God," because I really needed a break. I was, like, getting sick all the time on the road. I had no time to create anything new. I was just playing the stuff I had written, you know, sometimes five years ago. There just was... I, I had a schedule that did not allow me to be a human being, and certainly not a creative human being. So when everything got canceled, it was such a blessing in disguise because then I rediscovered my creativity and then discovered that it was like it went beyond music. I could write other things. It seemed-

    2. SS

      Had you not written poems?

    3. EC

      I, I'd always written poems. I mean, I think every English major's written some poems at some point.

    4. SS

      Mm-hmm. Definitely.

    5. EC

      But I never shared anything publicly with anyone, and I had never allowed myself to be playful online. It was always just like, "Share your music," and you know. And TikTok and these new vertical format apps just, they, they really encourage something in me, just like, and in a lot of people, I think, is just like, "Share yourself. Share, you know, be silly." Like, who cares? We're all just killing time in the pandemic. It doesn't matter. So I, I shared this comedy side, and that seemed to, it, well, like an earnest poetry side and then also a comedy side. I should probably niche down at some point, but you know.

    6. SS

      No, 'cause you're a polymath.

    7. EC

      Well-

    8. SS

      There's, there's no niching down.

    9. EC

      Yeah.

    10. SS

      We love you for your diversity.

    11. EC

      But various things, you know, just throwing things at the wall, and it turns out, like, other things were sticking, and I, I was just getting a lot of fulfillment from it.

    12. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    13. EC

      So I haven't really gone back to the musician lifestyle, although I'm starting to dip my toe back into it now.

  8. 20:18 – 22:45

    How ideas actually form: space, rumination, and capturing the fleeting muse

    1. SS

      What's so interesting is I don't think people appreciate the value of space for a creative person.

    2. EC

      Mm.

    3. SS

      Like you said, you're sort of going about this music career, and then when you get a gap where you can't do the thing, you can only think about doing the thing-

    4. EC

      Yeah

    5. SS

      ... it, and we saw it, like, I remember Bo Burnham, you know, when he wrote Inside during the pandemic, and it was, it was of a time. I'm not sure it holds up anymore. I don't think you can watch it in 10 years, you know.

    6. EC

      Some of those songs still will.

    7. SS

      No, the songs, yes-

    8. EC

      Yeah

    9. SS

      ... but as a piece of art-

    10. EC

      Yeah

    11. SS

      ... you know, I, I, I don't know if it's timeless or not, but it is a work of sheer genius. And I'd seen his comedy before, and I think he's a brilliant comedian, but this was something, this was something else.

    12. EC

      That only could have been made in that time.

    13. SS

      That only could have been made in that, in that time.

    14. EC

      Yeah.

    15. SS

      And, and I'm thinking about my own creative process, and people are like, "How do you come up with ideas?" And what they, what I, it's hard to explain, which is the way I come up with ideas is when I'm not thinking.

    16. EC

      Mm.

    17. SS

      I get ideas sparked in conversation, but it's the rumination, the space, the gaps. You know, I, I like to describe my writing process as, is days and weeks of guilt and self-loathing punctuated by hours of sheer brilliance.

    18. EC

      Yeah.

    19. SS

      If only I could predict when those hours would happen.

    20. EC

      Yeah.

    21. SS

      And the trick-

    22. EC

      And the trick is to be ready for them

    23. SS

      ... and the trick is to be ready for them, and, and I've-

    24. EC

      Yeah

    25. SS

      ... sat at home going, "Can't go out in case it strikes," and then I, like, just end up watching TV and be like, "Ah, I should've gone out." And then I go out, and then, uh, the, it starts happening, and I'm, like, grabbing anything I can write on, napkins. B- I literally have sugar, sugar packets 'cause I couldn't find anything to write, and I know that one loses ideas as quickly as they happen.

    26. EC

      Oh, yes.

    27. SS

      And so if you don't, if I don't capture it immediately, I will lose it even if I wait a minute.

    28. EC

      The muse is not patient.

    29. SS

      The muse is not patient, and so literally I would take a sugar packet and open it delicately, dump out the sugar, grab a pen and start writing. I have, I have binder clips of sugar packets with ideas on them.

    30. EC

      Yeah.

  9. 22:45 – 25:35

    Smart audiences and ‘learning for the joke’: building a nerdy community loop

    1. EC

      No. No. Definitely not. So yeah, and I think that's true, and also when you're, when you're contributing to that and trying to be your own brand of funny and your own brand of witty and, you know, smart or whatever and to try to contribute to the, the conversation, part of what I find is helpful is to remember that your audience is also that. It's not just the people making this, um, this content. It's also the people consuming, and when you reach a wide enough audience, like, I can say confidently that all, even my, my best work, the work that I've spent the har- most time on, that I've put a lot of myself into, that I've made intentionally very, you know, I've tried to make it witty, I've tried to make it funny, nothing I've ever posted will beat the top comment underneath the posts, you know, because you get the hive mind, and people are so funny, and they're so smart, you know?

    2. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    3. EC

      So it's a good way to, to stay focused and to stay humble and, and you know, and just to realize, like, you're part of, you're part of a, a species that's really innovative and smart and funny. And I think with these platforms, a lot of that rises to the top. You get, you get really smart and funny top comments.

    4. SS

      But you're also attracting smart and funny people.

    5. EC

      I've been really lucky with the community.

    6. SS

      I mean, bec- well, you're attracting, there's a lot of people like us. There's a lot of nerds-

    7. EC

      Yes

    8. SS

      ... who really like your stuff because you have to know a little bit about something-

    9. EC

      Yeah, exactly

    10. SS

      ... to appreciate your humor.

    11. EC

      And I've pushed it a little. I'm like, "Oh, could I, could I make a really weird, obscure skit about, like, uh, particles hanging out in the soluniverse, you know-

    12. SS

      Saw that one

    13. EC

      ... and ta- talk about, like, Higg-

    14. SS

      Loved it

    15. EC

      ... the Higgs boson," like-

    16. SS

      Loved it

    17. EC

      ... and a lot of people in the comments are like, "I didn't know what that was, and then I Googled it and looked it up, and now I know what it is," and that makes me happy. You know, it's like a sort of gotcha, now we're, now we know more.

    18. SS

      But this is the genius of your work because we live in a world with unlimited access to unlimited information.And yet still we see a post online or we hear a comment from a politician or some CEO said something, and in the span of 10 seconds, we can verify-

    19. EC

      Mm-hmm

    20. SS

      ... that, that statement or not.

    21. EC

      Yeah.

    22. SS

      And we don't. I, I mean, I joke about it. Like, I go around saying, "So I read this study. I think it's true. I don't know, but here you go." I literally could verify it any day-

    23. EC

      Mm-hmm

    24. SS

      ... but I don't.

    25. EC

      Yeah

    26. SS

      There's just, there's, like, it's amazing how the m- the momentum of laziness when we have the access, and what I love about your work is it forces somebody to go, "What is that?" And they do go look it up-

    27. EC

      Yeah

    28. SS

      ... not because they wanna be smarter. It's 'cause they wanna get the joke.

    29. EC

      Exactly. Exactly. You dangle the joke as a carrot.

    30. SS

      You dangle the joke as a carrot. Where, where all the other criteria of, like, all the other circumstances of, like, what's that politician saying, what's that CEO saying? It's like, "Ugh, I have to go be smart now. Ugh, forget it."

  10. 25:35 – 32:16

    Scheduling ‘gaps’: digital addiction, boredom walks, and passive stimulation

    1. SS

      I wanna go back to this idea of space because I'm so fascinated by it, the gaps in space. Do you force your schedule? 'Cause you're busier now than you ever have been. Do you force gaps in space because for you, lockdown was a thing that unleashed this new, new creativity. Do you make mini lockdowns for yourself?

    2. EC

      Yes, absolutely. Well, it taught me the value of that.

    3. SS

      So how do you do that? Like, do you schedule space? Like, do you put a blank thing in your calendar where, like, there's presence and absence, right? It's like-

    4. EC

      Yeah. I mean, I would love to tell you that I'm really disciplined and I have my phone in a, locked in a safe, like, for my creative hours every morning. I would love to tell you that. I don't. I'm just as addicted to everything. I'm addicted to the supply that I give out, which is social media, dopamine, whatever, as, as the people who are consuming the stuff. But I think what I do try to do though is I try to consume, I try to consume more of the things that are gonna fill me up creatively so that my output is better. So instead of spending, you know, fo- four hours a day just combing through social media, you know, trusting the algorithm to give me the things to fill me up-

    5. SS

      Yeah

    6. EC

      ... which it will not, you know?

    7. SS

      [laughs]

    8. EC

      I will s- try to s- minimize that amount of time and try to instead replace it with, like, rereading Virginia Woolf's A Room of One's Own or something, something I know is gonna, if I'm, especially if I'm going through a rut, I'll revisit the things that I know are going to light me on fire, and they're gonna create better output for me.

    9. SS

      Okay, so this is, this is, okay, this is good. So, um, I'm not a reader, which we've talked about. I'm over the shame, but I still have embarrassment. I'm not a reader, but I do still need those things.

    10. EC

      Mm-hmm.

    11. SS

      I've had to recreate my creative process every time I've had to do something creative because what worked before doesn't work again. I don't believe in writer's block.

    12. EC

      Okay.

    13. SS

      Right? I believe that the, the format or system that you're using to create in the past isn't working anymore, so you're not having-

    14. EC

      Hmm

    15. SS

      ... writer's block. It's not that you're having no ideas. The system is broken.

    16. EC

      Okay.

    17. SS

      And so what we do when people have writer's block, they keep doing the same system and blaming themselves. And I say, "Okay, I know I have ideas. I know I'm an idea guy. So if I'm having no ideas, am I broken, or is the way I'm attempting to have ideas broken?"

    18. EC

      Hmm.

    19. SS

      And so I have experimented with an, every time I, I lock up on ideas, I break down on ideas, I change the way I'm coming up with ideas. But this idea of space, like, I, when I realized I needed time, and so here, here's the thing. So I learned this a bunch of years ago, which is the, our rational brains, our thinking brains, the part that weighs the pros and cons and accesses our expertise-

    20. EC

      Mm-hmm

    21. SS

      ... that has access to the equivalent of about two feet of information around us, right? Our subconscious brains, our limbic brains, have access to the equivalent of something like three acres of information around us. Every conversation we've had, every movie we've seen, every book we've read gets stored somewhere.

    22. EC

      Mm-hmm.

    23. SS

      You just don't have access to it. And so the value of the brainstorming session is not to solve the problem. It's to ask the questions. 'Cause your brain won't ruminate on things that aren't presented. It won't just solve problems that don't exist in your life. You're not gonna just, you know, come up with some random idea. Like, a problem must exist, or a question must be asked, and then you can quote, unquote, "think about it." But if you think about it, we, we have our best ideas when we're falling asleep or when we go for a run or we're standing in the shower or, you know, drive, sitting in traffic. Like, it's when we're not, quote, unquote, "thinking," but the brain is still ruminating in the subconscious, and it gives you the idea. And it seems like divine intervention, but it's not. It's just your limbic brain.

    24. EC

      It's been working on the problem the whole time.

    25. SS

      And it's been working on the problem the whole time.

    26. EC

      Yeah.

    27. SS

      And so the problem is, is you need those gaps-

    28. EC

      Hmm

    29. SS

      ... for the, for your mind to give you the ideas, and in our modern world, we have filled in all those gaps. So we don't sit on the subway on our commute and just stare off into space anymore. We're on our phones.

    30. EC

      Yeah.

  11. 32:16 – 38:46

    A three-step creativity model—and the looming AI question

    1. EC

      But I think another important piece of it is something you said earlier where you said a question must be asked.

    2. SS

      A question must be asked. Yeah.

    3. EC

      We can't expect our brains, the, the brain that's ruminating and doing all this work behind the scenes, to, to be working on a problem that we haven't presented to it.

    4. SS

      Correct. It, it won't.

    5. EC

      So it won't just spit out random ideas-

    6. SS

      No

    7. EC

      ... like you said. So I think our brains are computers. There needs to be an input. You know, we need to ask it something. We need to ask it to solve a problem, and, and, and the problem might be what, what is my next idea? What is the thing I wanna write about next or whatever. But we need to act- actively feed our brains those questions and, and give them something to work on.

    8. SS

      I think more specific than that, too, at least for me. You know, that's where the conversations happen because the backwards and forwards, backwards and forwards, you know, yes, there's answers in those conversations, but it raises more questions.

    9. EC

      Mm-hmm.

    10. SS

      And so it's not like what's my next idea, but rather, like, why are we friends? Like-

    11. EC

      Yeah

    12. SS

      ... but then you start saying, "Why are we friends?" Okay, like, I understand the biology. I understand the anthropology. I can look that stuff up. That's pretty written about. What is a friend?

    13. EC

      Mm-hmm.

    14. SS

      Now it gets complicated.

    15. EC

      Yeah. So it's, it's not just asking a question, what is my next idea?

    16. SS

      It's, it li- it's an-

    17. EC

      It's asking specific questions about specific-

    18. SS

      And they can be big problems like, like help me understand, um, the world order as we know it post Cold War.

    19. EC

      Mm-hmm.

    20. SS

      That's something I've actually thought about, right? Like, what is the new world order? And it's such a big question that it's not gonna be one... And that's why all the conversations and all of the articles I'm reading and all of the people I'm interacting who have different points of view, I'll either ask directly, "So what do you think about the world right now?" And it's all feeding that until at some point you go, "Aha, I have an idea."

    21. EC

      Mm-hmm.

    22. SS

      You need, I guess, two things. You need, you need to ask three things. You need the question to be posed, big or small. You need to feed it with data through conversations, reading, whatever your chosen preferred way of i- intake is. And then and only then do you need space and gaps. And we do the first. We do the second. We don't do the third.

    23. EC

      Right.

    24. SS

      And I think this is the thing, and there's been stuff written about this. There's a basic global decline in ideas. Like, the number of patents that are filed these days is vastly fewer than in the past.

    25. EC

      Wow. That's terrifying.

    26. SS

      And, and, and the quality of the patents is lower. And so, like, we know that there's fewer ideas that are happening. And I think this idea of space and gaps, and if we're gonna be a hyper-scheduled, hyper-connected world, not rebelling against it, just it is what it is, then schedule gaps.

    27. EC

      See, now I know you are an optimist. This is sort of-

    28. SS

      I-

    29. EC

      ... central to you.

    30. SS

      It has been, I have been accused of such.

  12. 38:46 – 43:25

    Rebranding boredom: ‘good nothing,’ permission to idle, and Roswell-time

    1. SS

      And but, uh, um, is I think it'll help us appreciate... 'Cause we have this f- the, at least in America, we have this sort of vomit reaction to the concept of boredom.

    2. EC

      Hmm.

    3. SS

      Like that it's some sort of you cannot be bored, you know?

    4. EC

      Yeah.

    5. SS

      And I think boredom is the ultimate space, where you sit there staring off at the clouds, not knowing what to do, and you're kind of like, [sighs] "How are you?" "I don't know. A little bored. Got nothing to do." And I think there's joy in the appreciation of boredom because, as I was saying before, for a curious mind, it goes right back to the beginning, for a curious mind, there's always questions and problems being asked, and yet there's not enough solutions to all the questions.

    6. EC

      Yeah.

    7. SS

      And I think boredom and joy of boredom is the thing that not only keeps us human but helps us see things, find things, invent things, write things, paint things, sing things that the machine never can and never will. And I think, I think in this hyper creative, not hyper creative, hyper productive world that we live in, where the machines are just making us even more productive, that our creativity comes from being bored, not from being active.

    8. EC

      Hmm. Yeah, I think I agree because boredom is the very space you were talking about. We need to create-

    9. SS

      Yeah

    10. EC

      ... spaces where we can allow ourselves to, and I don't know if boredom is exactly the right word, but allow our brains to be freed of distraction.

    11. SS

      By boredom, I mean I have nothing to do.

    12. EC

      Yeah.

    13. SS

      I have nothing to do. At most, walking.

    14. EC

      Mm-hmm.

    15. SS

      Yeah.

    16. EC

      Yeah, and that's why I take my, I guess you could call them boredom walks. I take my, like, enforced boredom walks so that my, I'm forcing my brain to think, to just, whether it's problem-solving or just thinking about the world around me or whatever it is, I think it's really important that I don't have my device and I'm just forced for the next 45 minutes, however long the walk is to my destination, to just ruminate.

    17. SS

      And the important thing here is that it's okay if nothing happens.

    18. EC

      Oh, yeah. Absolutely.

    19. SS

      By applying pressure to the boredom is, is the paradox, is the exact problem we're trying to solve for.

    20. EC

      Or giving permission for boredom.

    21. SS

      Giving permission.

    22. EC

      I can, I can just be bored.

    23. SS

      I can-

    24. EC

      I don't have to pro- solve problems on my walk.

    25. SS

      And, and that's one of the things that people don't realize, which is I actually, I, I won't schedule anything in my calendar for Fridays.

    26. EC

      Hmm.

    27. SS

      Now, I work on Fridays, but I will not pre-schedule anything on a Friday. It has to be blank, so that if I choose to have three hours or four hours of whatever I want, which includes staring off at a wall-

    28. EC

      Mm-hmm

    29. SS

      ... that is my prerogative. And I'm, this has expanded, 'cause I used to do hour, l- like I would literally put an hour break in my calendar to do nothing. I would schedule nothing. Not that I'm scheduling nothing. I'm scheduling to do nothing.

    30. EC

      Yeah. That's important.

  13. 43:25 – 48:01

    Anxiety and panic disorder: early agoraphobia, treatment, and why she talks about it

    1. SS

      What's the thing you've dealt with? What's the challenge you've-

    2. EC

      For me, it's, it's anxiety. It's an intense, you know, panic disorder. I get panic attacks. Um, they used to be incredibly bad when I was a teenager and then into, like, early 20s, college, um, almost crippling. I had intense agoraphobia, could barely leave my apartment, and, and was, like, untreated, you know, during those times and, and I kept thinking-

    3. SS

      Agoraphobia is afraid of outside.

    4. EC

      Yeah, like not-

    5. SS

      Afraid of people

    6. EC

      ... not being able to leave your-

    7. SS

      Yeah

    8. EC

      ... place because of fears of anxiety, uh, panic attacks, which are happening anyway, so.

    9. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    10. EC

      Yeah. So yeah, I think just reali- thinking back to those memories, it w- it was just like a g- like, again, like a warning sign. Like, if I don't get my stuff together and I don't get treated, this is the, uh, the ultimate reality, and it's gonna tear your family apart and, you know.

    11. SS

      How old were you when you started to be like, "I think I need someone to look after me"?

    12. EC

      Well, that's the good thing about having, you know, grandparents that have gone through stuff like that is you realize early on that, you know, that this is a, this is a thing that needs to be treated. It's a condition, you know. So I was probably 16 when I finally started to ask for help 'cause I was having such intense, uh, panic attacks at school. I was having to leave classes, which is, you know, like we said earlier, I'm afraid of authority. I like to be a good student when I can, and, um, having to, like, run out of class and look like I'm skipping or something was not-

    13. SS

      Which only added to the anxiety.

    14. EC

      Yeah, yeah, knowing that you have to be in class.

    15. SS

      Is it under control now?

    16. EC

      I would say it's, like, as under control as it probably ever will be-

    17. SS

      How-

    18. EC

      ... to the point where I can live a normal life, but I just, I al- always have to deal with panic attacks.

    19. SS

      How often do they happen now?

    20. EC

      It depends. If I'm traveling, if there's, like, a lot going on, especially if I'm traveling, I'll have them regularly on, in, in my travels, so maybe every few days or sometimes multiple times a day. But if I'm home in my routines and I'm taking care of myself and everything, then maybe once m- once in a month.

    21. SS

      Is there a reason you choose to talk about it?

    22. EC

      I mean, I just think we could all just talk more about our mental health. I, I think the, there... I feel two ways about it, 'cause I also think there's, like, an over- maybe an over, uh, di- diagnose- diagnosing.

    23. SS

      Over, we over diagnose things, yeah.

    24. EC

      Yeah. Um-

    25. SS

      Like everybody who's a little bit, you know, e- everybody's OCD, right?

    26. EC

      Yeah, like we-

    27. SS

      They don't realize what real OCD is, which is deep, deep, deep superstition-

    28. EC

      Yes

    29. SS

      ... like your grandmother had.

    30. EC

      Yeah, yeah. Th- there are so many forms of it, but yeah-

  14. 48:01 – 58:06

    Maximum nerd detour: Star Wars archetypes, Palpatine admiration, and identity as R2-D2

    1. SS

      By the way, we should... I have to, like, insert a warning. Like, if you're listening to this podcast, the conversation is gonna about to get incredibly nerdy.

    2. EC

      [laughs]

    3. SS

      And we're gonna talk about Star Wars and archetypes and in-depth characters, and if you don't know what we're talking about and you don't like Star Wars, perhaps go listen to a podcast, another podcast right now. [laughs]

    4. EC

      [laughs] Yeah.

    5. SS

      So you and I, um, the first time we met, we very quickly bonded about our love of science fiction. You skew Star Trek. I skew Star Wars.

    6. EC

      I mean, I love them almost equally. If you, if you-

    7. SS

      That is not true

    8. EC

      ... if you put a gun to my head and you told me I had to k- only keep one, I would say Star Trek.

    9. SS

      I know that because no one... It's like-There's no such thing as I love Star Trek and Star Wars equally. It is impossible, and it doesn't exist for anyone

    10. EC

      I, I come very close

    11. SS

      Well, you're the one

    12. EC

      It's just that that's-

    13. SS

      But you still skew. You still skew

    14. EC

      It's just on- and only because there's more of Star Trek. I've spent more hours. I've logged more hours. There's more to consume

    15. SS

      Whatever

    16. EC

      So that, I just-

    17. SS

      Whatever, whatever the reason

    18. EC

      I just wanna belong to both fandoms

    19. SS

      No one is 50/50 on Star Trek and Star Wars

    20. EC

      Yeah, baby

    21. SS

      Everybody skews one way. I like Star Trek. I love Star Wars

    22. EC

      Hmm. Yeah

    23. SS

      I like Star Trek, and I like different Star Treks. You know? Like, I'm a Trekker and not a Trekkie

    24. EC

      Okay

    25. SS

      Which means I like Next Generation

    26. EC

      Ah

    27. SS

      Which apparently they call themselves Trekkers

    28. EC

      I didn't know that

    29. SS

      I mean-

    30. EC

      Maybe I'm not a real member of the community

  15. 58:06 – 1:05:22

    ‘Roswell’ origin story and live performance

    1. SS

      I am. Uh, can I ask a favor?

    2. EC

      Yeah.

    3. SS

      This is totally selfish, totally selfish.

    4. EC

      Mm-hmm.

    5. SS

      Um, I've, I've discovered you because of this magical song called Roswell.

    6. EC

      Oh, yeah.

    7. SS

      My favorite thing about this song is it's accurate.

    8. EC

      It, yeah.

    9. SS

      Every line-

    10. EC

      It's intensely accurate

    11. SS

      ... every line in... And I knew the story of Roswell-

    12. EC

      Yeah

    13. SS

      ... and how it became a thing that it wasn't. It's not aliens, but it's funny.

    14. EC

      Mm-hmm.

    15. SS

      Um, and I love that every line of that song is an education. Like, if you, if somebody li- sings along, they're smarter.

    16. EC

      Here's one thing, though, that I kinda got slightly wrong, and I'm gonna take this opportunity to correct myself. So I sa- I mentioned the CIA, and technically the CIA was created, like, a month after the-

    17. SS

      It was the OSS.

    18. EC

      Yeah, I don't know. Was it? Yeah, I don't know the exact-

    19. SS

      I mean, it was CIA-ish.

    20. EC

      Right. And-

    21. SS

      It was a precursor

    22. EC

      ... but the CIA was formed kind of in the wake of this event.

    23. SS

      Yeah.

    24. EC

      So maybe because of this event. We don't know. But I did mention that they called the CIA, which technically they couldn't have done that, but-

    25. SS

      They couldn't have done that.

    26. EC

      Yeah.

    27. SS

      But they called the OSS, which-

    28. EC

      But it's a fun line

    29. SS

      It's a great line.

    30. EC

      It's a fun line to put in there.

Episode duration: 1:05:23

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