The Climb Out of Pain is Taller Than Everest with Nat Geo photographer Cory Richards PART 2

1. 0:00 – 4:49

   The power of slowing down

   1. SPSpeaker0:00

      Please be aware that in this episode, Simon and Cory have a discussion about suicide. Check the show notes below for the time code

   2. CRCory Richards0:08

      I was sitting there, and I ended up just sobbing and screaming into my sleeping bag at the top of my lungs because I didn't want the camp staff to hear what was happening. I walked into the cook tent, and I was like, "I'm, I'm done." And they're like, "With the expedition?" And I was like, "No, I'm, I'm, like, done climbing and taking pictures."

   3. SSSimon Sinek0:29

      In the last episode of A Bit of Optimism, I sat down with Cory Richards. He's the climber and photographer whose selfie after he survived an avalanche made it to the cover of National Geographic. His journey is nothing short of extraordinary. And as powerful as our first episode was, our conversation went even deeper. Cory's story is not just about surviving the mountains. It's about confronting the personal battles that follow, the moments of clarity and chaos that shape who we all are. This is A Bit of Optimism. [upbeat music]

   4. CRCory Richards1:10

      Our minds do this thing called splitting. When we feel under threat-

   5. SSSimon Sinek1:13

      Mm-hmm

   6. CRCory Richards1:13

      ... we get more binary, which you see proliferating in extreme ways across-

   7. SSSimon Sinek1:17

      Right. There's no-

   8. CRCory Richards1:18

      ... America

   9. SSSimon Sinek1:18

      And for good reason, by the way.

   10. CRCory Richards1:19

       Yeah.

   11. SSSimon Sinek1:19

       There's no time for nuance-

   12. CRCory Richards1:20

       Right

   13. SSSimon Sinek1:21

       ... when there's a threat.

   14. CRCory Richards1:22

       Right.

   15. SSSimon Sinek1:22

       Am I gonna get eaten, or am I not gonna get eaten?

   16. CRCory Richards1:23

       But there is time for critical thinking.

   17. SSSimon Sinek1:25

       Right.

   18. CRCory Richards1:25

       To be able to slow yourself down and move into a response mindset, and this is, uh, you know, this is something I actually speak about is, is this whole system is something I came up with largely because I was so heartbroken that I was like, "How the fuck do I get through this?"

   19. SSSimon Sinek1:42

       Mm-hmm.

   20. CRCory Richards1:42

       You know? And so basically, if you can master the skill of slowing yourself down, which comes down to learning how to, uh, self-regulate-

   21. SSSimon Sinek1:54

       Mm-hmm

   22. CRCory Richards1:55

       ... you can make that shift really quickly.

   23. SSSimon Sinek1:57

       From binary to critical.

   24. CRCory Richards1:58

       From br- binary to critical, out of sympathetic into parasympathetic.

   25. SSSimon Sinek2:02

       It reminds me of pilots.

   26. CRCory Richards2:04

       Yeah.

   27. SSSimon Sinek2:04

       I mean, if you've ever heard air traffic control tapes-

   28. CRCory Richards2:08

       Right

   29. SSSimon Sinek2:09

       ... of a really bad emergency-

   30. CRCory Richards2:11

       Yeah
2. 4:49 – 5:44

   4 steps to reclaim your agency

   1. CRCory Richards4:49

      outsourcing it.

   2. SSSimon Sinek4:49

      So go back to your model. You, so it's, it's-

   3. CRCory Richards4:51

      So it's-

   4. SSSimon Sinek4:52

      It starts with self-regulation

   5. CRCory Richards4:52

      ... it s- it starts with agency.

   6. SSSimon Sinek4:54

      Mm-hmm.

   7. CRCory Richards4:54

      I mean, yes, self-regulation, but so basically the sort of four key components are agency is everything.

   8. SSSimon Sinek5:00

      Mm-hmm.

   9. CRCory Richards5:01

      Um, so taking ownership over the situation.

   10. SSSimon Sinek5:04

       Which is the opposite of victimization.

   11. CRCory Richards5:06

       Yeah. 100%.

   12. SSSimon Sinek5:07

       Mm-hmm.

   13. CRCory Richards5:08

       Agency is everything. Discovery demands discomfort, meaning you have to lean in-

   14. SSSimon Sinek5:14

       Mm-hmm

   15. CRCory Richards5:14

       ... to, to, to the discomfort of the situation and not try to escape it.

   16. SSSimon Sinek5:18

       Mm-hmm.

   17. CRCory Richards5:19

       And they all work hand in hand. The third is certainty kills curiosity.

   18. SSSimon Sinek5:23

       Mm-hmm.

   19. CRCory Richards5:23

       Meaning as soon as you're certain about something, growth is done.

   20. SSSimon Sinek5:26

       Mm-hmm.

   21. CRCory Richards5:26

       Right? And then, you know, adaptation leads to evolution, which is about not trying to remake something, but trying to reimagine something-

   22. SSSimon Sinek5:37

       Mm-hmm

   23. CRCory Richards5:37

       ... from the ground up. You can take pieces from the past, so long as you're not married to it, but you can't remake the past. You just can't functionally.

3. 5:44 – 12:13

   Cory's last expedition

   1. SSSimon Sinek5:44

      Can you give me a specific story that you have gone through where you were able to apply those four elements and manage through something that you may have not have been able to in the past before you were able to have such clarity?

   2. CRCory Richards5:57

      It's a beautiful question because it leads to this moment right here.

   3. SSSimon Sinek6:00

      Mm-hmm.

   4. CRCory Richards6:01

      Um, in 2021Height of COVID, I had been training for a new route on Everest- Mm-hmm ... to climb something that had never been climbed before by anybody, do it without oxygen. And we had tried in 2019 and failed, or not gotten to the top. We can get back to failure, 'cause I don't believe in it. In the history of the universe, not one sing- single thing has ever failed. Yeah. So- We'll get back to that. Yeah, we'll get back to that. Um, so it's 2021 and we, the Everest season from the north side, which is where we were climbing from, the Tibetan side, gets canceled. And so we have all this money saved. We're, we're making a film about my dying father and, and this climb and, and mental health, and we decide to go to a mountain called Dhaulagiri, which is the seventh highest mountain in the world. It's sort of like a dry run. And we ended up at base camp, and I had not been sleeping well. I had, um, not been eating a lot. I was very emotional. I was teary. We flew to base camp in a helicopter, so we jumped elevations really quick, and then we exerted ourselves for three days trying to build a base camp. 'Cause there's no infrastructure there. There's no infrastructure there, especially that time of year, those seasons. Um, again, we were trying a new route, so there's- Mm-hmm ... this hyper-stress going on. Mm-hmm. And the team went out to sort of recon a r- a way onto the face, 'cause nobody had ever climbed it. And, um, I stayed in my tent, and my brain started to speed up, and I started to, to cry uncontrollably. I was trying to read, but I really couldn't make sense of the words. I was reading, I think, "Autobiography of a Yogi" or something like that, and all I kept coming back to was this word love, love, love. But then it was, it was countered by this idea of, like, y- uh, sort of grandiosity and dying. I couldn't make sense of it. Later on, it would be, I think, reasonably diagnosed as a very extreme mixed bipolar episode, which is where you're experiencing crushing depression and hypomania, in my case, all at the same time. So it's incredibly hard. Anyway, I was sitting there, and I ended up just sobbing and screaming into my sleeping bag at the top of my lungs because I didn't want the camp staff to hear what was happening. Team came back, and, uh, I, I, I walked into the cook tent and I was like, "I'm, I'm done." And they're like, "What do you mean you're done?" And I was like, "I'm done." And they're like, "With the expedition?" I mean, dude, hundreds of thousands of dollars, sponsors, like, all of it. And I was like, "No, I'm, I'm, like, done climbing and taking pictures." And their, you know, kind of jaws dropped. I'm s- crying, sobbing at the time. And they're like, "What are you gonna do?" And I'm like, "Move to LA and make movies." [chuckles] You know, so there was, like, uh, there was this amplified, uh, g- grandiosity going on. Next day, I get up, I leave. I walk down the valley. I get on a helicopter. I fly back to Kathmandu. I get on a plane. I fly home. And now I'm getting really depressed. You know, there's a sense of freedom in it. I'm like, "Oh, I freed myself from this," whatever it was. But I get home, and then I get this email. My mom texts me really early in the morning and she said, "Did you get the email from, from Tommy?" Who was part of the team. And it was just this scathing interpretation of what had happened. You know, vast manipulation, hiding behind mental health, like, all of these things. And I was so depressed at the time. I was like, "Well, fuck it. I'll just kill myself." Like, "I'm done. Peace out." Like, and it wasn't the first time I had had that thought in my life. And so I prepared myself and did all, you know, like, took a shower and pulled out a climbing rope and tied a noose and hung it from the ceiling and got up on the stool and... And I, and I was, y- I almost accidentally did it. And, um, anyway, it was... I, I ended up obviously not dying and, and, and reaching out for help and, and really dove in very deep into, into this, into the mental health world. I knew all the words, I knew all the ideas by that point, but I didn't... I had contextualized it. S- you know, people who think a lot do that, and they think that the knowledge is the healing, and the healing isn't the knowledge at all. It's like w- wisdom can't be taught, but knowledge can. Wisdom is the embodiment. And I... And then I didn't know what I was gonna do. I had built this identity as a photographer and as a climber and National Geographic this and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Um, and now none of those things existed. And there was this stark reality and a very deep probing of, "Who am I as a human being? If I don't have these anchors and my value can no longer be tied to an external expression, what does that mean for my humanity?" And so now you see, like, taking agency over the situation. What is the truth? The truth is not- Who am I not, what, who do others think I am? Exactly. Mm-hmm. Like, and here's the reality. I now am stepping into an unknown future. Then you get into this like, I don't, I'm not climbing anymore. I'm not taking photographs. I'm not working for National Geographic. I am not none of these things. So now here I am. These are the hurdles that are impacting me, uh, that are from my past. I need t- to take care of those. I don't know what I'm gonna do. I don't have limitless money. How am I gonna sort this out? Boom. You've got agency. Then you move into discovery demands endurance. That is a very uncomfortable place to be. You've got financial stresses. You've got, um, long-term sort of, you know, life path stresses. You've got identity stresses. And I'm sitting there going... this is the most uncomfortable I've ever been.

4. 12:13 – 22:27

   Heartbreak, death, and uncertainty

   1. CRCory Richards12:13

      During that time, I went through a very, very toxic and also formative, beautiful relationship where, you know, I was dating this gal, and I, again, and if you really look at it, I had anchored myself to her beauty. I just thought she was the most beautiful thing in the world, and maybe if I'm standing next to her, that can make up for all the other things that I've let go, you know? And then we moved to Thailand, and then I come to find out that she had actually been... And I write about it in the book, so I feel square talking about this with-- She knows. Um, she approved the chapter. But come to find out that she had been escorting during our relationship. And so now there's this heartbreak involved in this now, too, and that is a deeply uncomfortable place. So there's loss, there's heartbreak, there's... [inhales] And I just had to sit in it, and I just had to sit in it and explore it. Then you get to, well, let's get curious about this. What are the stories that I'm telling? Where is my certainty in this? And are those certainties true? And what stories are those certainties driving that are anchoring me in beliefs?

   2. SSSimon Sinek13:22

      What is my story? Is that story true?

   3. CRCory Richards13:24

      Exactly.

   4. SSSimon Sinek13:24

      Is that story really true? [chuckles]

   5. CRCory Richards13:25

      Is that story real? And if it's not true, what does that mean?

   6. SSSimon Sinek13:28

      Yeah.

   7. CRCory Richards13:29

      So now you're in curiosity-

   8. SSSimon Sinek13:30

      Yeah

   9. CRCory Richards13:31

      ... versus certainty. [lip smack] And out of that came the book-

   10. SSSimon Sinek13:37

       Mm

   11. CRCory Richards13:37

       ... and the books, because it was the mining of all of this that led me to writing what became the first book. And [lip smack] so, and that is, that starts to be an adaptation, right? What's interesting is, and I've said this before, I did not start writing that book from a place of service-

   12. SSSimon Sinek13:59

       Mm

   13. CRCory Richards14:00

       ... at all.

   14. SSSimon Sinek14:01

       Mm-hmm.

   15. CRCory Richards14:01

       I actually started it writing from a place of victimhood. Look at all the things that happened to me. And that went back to the curiosity part, where I'm like, "Wait a minute." You know, like the story with my brother.

   16. SSSimon Sinek14:12

       Mm.

   17. CRCory Richards14:13

       He did all these things. Well, wait a minute. Was it just him?

   18. SSSimon Sinek14:17

       Mm.

   19. CRCory Richards14:17

       Or were you getting something from this? And as soon as I started asking those questions and being willing to write them out-

   20. SSSimon Sinek14:24

       Mm

   21. CRCory Richards14:25

       ... despite all the discomfort, I started discovering-

   22. SSSimon Sinek14:29

       Mm

   23. CRCory Richards14:29

       ... that there was a deeper truth to all of this that allowed me to take more and more and more agency-

   24. SSSimon Sinek14:35

       Mm

   25. CRCory Richards14:35

       ... which allowed me to expand the discomfort, which allowed me to be more curious, and then the words start coming out. And it tr- and it transformed the book from [lip smack] a sob story-

   26. SSSimon Sinek14:45

       Mm

   27. CRCory Richards14:45

       ... into an act of service that says, "This is my life. You've seen it from this side. Now let me tell you what's going on underneath."

   28. SSSimon Sinek14:52

       And I hope the lessons I've learned are valuable to you so you don't have to go through what I've gone through.

   29. CRCory Richards14:56

       Even if we don't know each other, you are not alone.

   30. SSSimon Sinek14:58

       You're not the only, you're not the first person to go through this.
5. 22:27 – 29:37

   The people in Cory's corner

   1. SSSimon Sinek22:27

      Who's sitting with you in this, through this?

   2. CRCory Richards22:31

      Hmm. Well, right now you are. Like, and this is, I think, obviously this is a, a more curated environment, but when people sit and don't try to change it and they just allow you to be sad without silver lining it, without, "At least this way," you know, at least they just sit and they say, "That, that's gotta hurt," those people are the most valuable. They're not trying to change it. When you try to change somebody's pain, you are rejecting it. And so I have this group of men here that-- I have great female friends too, but this group of men, Treehouse, and we talk every day and-

   3. SSSimon Sinek23:16

      So you have that, you have that.

   4. CRCory Richards23:18

      I have that, yeah. Doesn't mean it hurts less.

   5. SSSimon Sinek23:20

      Yeah.

   6. CRCory Richards23:21

      It's just I know that I have a foundational group of people that will always show up.

   7. SSSimon Sinek23:29

      The part that needs to be underlined here, uh, is that group.

   8. CRCory Richards23:35

      Hmm. Totally.

   9. SSSimon Sinek23:36

      As I said about the story from Jonny Quest, which is, uh, he said, "I'm with you."

   10. CRCory Richards23:42

       Yeah.

   11. SSSimon Sinek23:42

       "And then I had the strength to keep going."

   12. CRCory Richards23:44

       Right.

   13. SSSimon Sinek23:45

       'Cause it's definitely not internal fortitude. I'd already decided I was quitting.

   14. CRCory Richards23:49

       Right. Right.

   15. SSSimon Sinek23:50

       And you're not looking for anybody to fix anything. You said it's agency.

   16. CRCory Richards23:55

       Yeah.

   17. SSSimon Sinek23:55

       You're not looking for anybody to convince you that everything's fine. Everything's not fine.

   18. CRCory Richards23:59

       Mm-mm.

   19. SSSimon Sinek24:00

       And what you're going through is awful. And this is where I think agency is so fascinating, or the ability to be okay with discomfort and all your four things. The question I would raise is, does any of us have the internal fortitude to do any of those four things alone?Or the only reason you can do those four things is because you have a person or a network that when you say, "This is what's happening to me," they simply say to you, "Yeah, that sucks," and validate the way you feel so that you have the strength of feeling not alone in taking agency, sitting in discomfort, you know, or, or being curious.

   20. CRCory Richards24:41

       Yeah.

   21. SSSimon Sinek24:42

       I wonder if the, if the foundation of all those four things is the, the love that people have of you. When you almost ended it-

   22. CRCory Richards24:50

       Mm-hmm

   23. SSSimon Sinek24:51

       ... who did you call?

   24. CRCory Richards24:53

       At that moment, I called my f- my, my then therapist, now friend, um, dear friend, and I just said, "Help. Just help. I don't know what to do." And then my friend Lori came over, and I remember I was in my underwear. I was just laying on the floor, and she just laid down on top of me and put her head on the small of my back. I remember very distinctly first feeling her hair, and then feeling that kind of like w- w- stickiness because I knew she was crying.

   25. SSSimon Sinek25:27

       Yeah, yeah. The, the salt on salt.

   26. CRCory Richards25:29

       The salt on... Yeah.

   27. SSSimon Sinek25:29

       Yeah.

   28. CRCory Richards25:31

       And I remember she just said, "Don't, don't go." And, um, you know, in this situation now, it's never been, um... I haven't gotten to that place because I have this incredible group of people that exemplifies and amplifies love and support, and they can't do anything. They can't do functionally anything-

   29. SSSimon Sinek25:56

       Yeah

   30. CRCory Richards25:57

       ... aside from-
6. 29:37 – 36:08

   Purpose is not doing

   1. CRCory Richards29:37

      like, I've, I've thought a lot about purpose because I think people con- people confuse it. We touched on it earlier.

   2. SSSimon Sinek29:45

      With accomplishment.

   3. CRCory Richards29:46

      People confuse purpose with doing.

   4. SSSimon Sinek29:49

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CRCory Richards29:50

      And purpose is something so much more e- e- elemental.

   6. SSSimon Sinek29:53

      Mm-hmm.

   7. CRCory Richards29:53

      So for me, the way I would define my purpose is simply that my purpose is to connect people with a more authentic understanding of themselves. And in doing so, when we come into confrontation with our own paradoxes, our own contradictions, our own hypocrisies, our own messiness, and we start to extend some level of compassion to ourselves, we're, w- w- we're almost necessarily forced into the understanding that everybody comes with those same complications. And when we arrive at that point, we're then thrust into compassionBy way of empathy. And so if you were to boil purpose down to a single word for me, it would be compassion.

   8. SSSimon Sinek30:34

      Mm-hmm.

   9. CRCory Richards30:35

      I do that through storytelling.

   10. SSSimon Sinek30:38

       You live a very balanced life.

   11. CRCory Richards30:40

       [laughs] Kinda.

   12. SSSimon Sinek30:41

       No, no. I, I-

   13. CRCory Richards30:42

       Yeah

   14. SSSimon Sinek30:42

       ... I don't mean that glibly. Like, I think of it like entrepreneurial experience versus like a corporate experience, right? Which is, you know, if you live a corporate life, your lows are not gonna be that low.

   15. CRCory Richards30:53

       Mm-hmm.

   16. SSSimon Sinek30:53

       But your highs are not gonna be that high.

   17. CRCory Richards30:55

       Mm-hmm.

   18. SSSimon Sinek30:55

       It's, it's very balanced.

   19. CRCory Richards30:56

       Yeah.

   20. SSSimon Sinek30:56

       And there's nothing wrong with it. It's good. If you choose an entrepreneurial path, your highs are so high, but my God, your lows are so low. But my point is, is you-- is nature abhors imbalance, nature abhors a vacuum.

   21. CRCory Richards31:06

       Yeah.

   22. SSSimon Sinek31:06

       You always seek eq- equilibrium.

   23. CRCory Richards31:08

       Yeah.

   24. SSSimon Sinek31:08

       And so it's gonna find balance.

   25. CRCory Richards31:10

       Yeah.

   26. SSSimon Sinek31:10

       And so if you wanna climb Mount Everest, literally there is nowhere higher you can go.

   27. CRCory Richards31:16

       Yeah.

   28. SSSimon Sinek31:17

       Then you have to accept that the balance of that is going a place where there's probably nowhere lower you can go.

   29. CRCory Richards31:23

       Right. Right.

   30. SSSimon Sinek31:23

       You know? And so you, you live a very balanced life.
7. 36:08 – 41:11

   Failure does not exist

   1. CRCory Richards36:08

      hit on is like, I don't think failure really exists.

   2. SSSimon Sinek36:10

      Yeah, say more about that.

   3. CRCory Richards36:11

      Well, just like if, if you look-

   4. SSSimon Sinek36:13

      You said in the history of the world, there's never been a failure.

   5. CRCory Richards36:15

      In the history of the universe, there's never been a failure.

   6. SSSimon Sinek36:17

      So you go-

   7. CRCory Richards36:17

      There's been, there's been transitions. There's been change. A, a, a company doesn't fail. A company ceases to be profitable or viable in whatever market or economy they're in.All of the learning from the building of that business-

   8. SSSimon Sinek36:34

      Mm-hmm

   9. CRCory Richards36:34

      ... and the, the disintegration of that business simply splinters-

   10. SSSimon Sinek36:38

       Mm-hmm

   11. CRCory Richards36:39

       ... into new building-

   12. SSSimon Sinek36:40

       Mm-hmm

   13. CRCory Richards36:40

       ... and disintegration. It is, it is literally the Ouroboros. Is it, I don't know if I'm saying that right, but it's life eating itself.

   14. SSSimon Sinek36:46

       Mm-hmm.

   15. CRCory Richards36:46

       It's the snake eating its tail. The, the, the buy-in to this is that-

   16. SSSimon Sinek36:50

       Or it's the thing that dies and disintegrates and then gives life, and then that dies and disintegrates and gives life-

   17. CRCory Richards36:55

       Exactly

   18. SSSimon Sinek36:55

       ... and it's the circle of life stuff.

   19. CRCory Richards36:57

       It's the circle of life. So, so there is not ... And once you ... S- people say, "Well, that's a semantic argument," and I don't agree. It's a consciousness shift. You can't fail.

   20. SSSimon Sinek37:05

       I mean, I think you're r- it's not y- I don't think it's a s- a semantic argument. I think it's finite and infinite games.

   21. CRCory Richards37:10

       Yeah.

   22. SSSimon Sinek37:11

       You know, I think it's, it's, as you said, it's not the end. It's the transition.

   23. CRCory Richards37:15

       And, and the transition is deeply uncomfortable.

   24. SSSimon Sinek37:17

       It's not the end of the relationship. It's the transition into something different.

   25. CRCory Richards37:20

       Into something different, into a new understanding.

   26. SSSimon Sinek37:22

       And better or worse is, you know, who knows?

   27. CRCory Richards37:24

       Well, better and worse, again, that's so interest- like, I-

   28. SSSimon Sinek37:26

       But I mean, I'm saying I'm not, I'm not-

   29. CRCory Richards37:28

       Yeah

   30. SSSimon Sinek37:28

       ... it, it, they're all temporary states anyway.

Episode duration: 41:11