The Climb Out of Pain is Taller Than Everest with Nat Geo photographer Cory Richards PART 2

Speaker 0:00 Please be aware that in this episode, Simon and Cory have a discussion about suicide. Check the show notes below for the time code

Cory Richards 0:08 I was sitting there, and I ended up just sobbing and screaming into my sleeping bag at the top of my lungs because I didn't want the camp staff to hear what was happening. I walked into the cook tent, and I was like, "I'm, I'm done." And they're like, "With the expedition?" And I was like, "No, I'm, I'm, like, done climbing and taking pictures."

Simon Sinek 0:29 In the last episode of A Bit of Optimism, I sat down with Cory Richards. He's the climber and photographer whose selfie after he survived an avalanche made it to the cover of National Geographic. His journey is nothing short of extraordinary. And as powerful as our first episode was, our conversation went even deeper. Cory's story is not just about surviving the mountains. It's about confronting the personal battles that follow, the moments of clarity and chaos that shape who we all are. This is A Bit of Optimism. [upbeat music]

Cory Richards 1:10 Our minds do this thing called splitting. When we feel under threat-

Simon Sinek 1:13 Mm-hmm

Cory Richards 1:13 ... we get more binary, which you see proliferating in extreme ways across-

Simon Sinek 1:17 Right. There's no-

Cory Richards 1:18 ... America

Simon Sinek 1:18 And for good reason, by the way.

Cory Richards 1:19 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 1:19 There's no time for nuance-

Cory Richards 1:20 Right

Simon Sinek 1:21 ... when there's a threat.

Cory Richards 1:22 Right.

Simon Sinek 1:22 Am I gonna get eaten, or am I not gonna get eaten?

Cory Richards 1:23 But there is time for critical thinking.

Simon Sinek 1:25 Right.

Cory Richards 1:25 To be able to slow yourself down and move into a response mindset, and this is, uh, you know, this is something I actually speak about is, is this whole system is something I came up with largely because I was so heartbroken that I was like, "How the fuck do I get through this?"

Simon Sinek 1:42 Mm-hmm.

Cory Richards 1:42 You know? And so basically, if you can master the skill of slowing yourself down, which comes down to learning how to, uh, self-regulate-

Simon Sinek 1:54 Mm-hmm

Cory Richards 1:55 ... you can make that shift really quickly.

Simon Sinek 1:57 From binary to critical.

Cory Richards 1:58 From br- binary to critical, out of sympathetic into parasympathetic.

Simon Sinek 2:02 It reminds me of pilots.

Cory Richards 2:04 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 2:04 I mean, if you've ever heard air traffic control tapes-

Cory Richards 2:08 Right

Simon Sinek 2:09 ... of a really bad emergency-

Cory Richards 2:11 Yeah

Simon Sinek 2:11 ... on an aircraft. To me, the most extreme one is, is a very famous plane crash back in Sioux Falls. Sioux Falls or Sioux City, I can't remember. But basically, the plane's full on on fire.

Cory Richards 2:22 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 2:22 The engines are on fire. You know, the plane's on fire.

Cory Richards 2:25 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 2:25 They've lost hydraulics, which is, like-

Cory Richards 2:27 Yeah

Simon Sinek 2:27 ... literally the worst thing that can happen.

Cory Richards 2:29 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 2:29 And they're controlling the plane with the engines, like left and right with thrust, right? And there's video footage of it, of the plane coming in for a landing on fire, and it hits, it crash lands, it somersaults, and miraculously, half the people survived, including the pilot. But when you go listen to the air traffic control chatter, it's like, "Uh, we're, uh, we're on fire right now."

Cory Richards 2:53 [chuckles]

Simon Sinek 2:53 "Uh, gonna make a emergency landing." You know?

Cory Richards 2:57 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 2:57 And you can hear the tension in their voice, but they're calm.

Cory Richards 3:00 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 3:00 And they're thinking, and they saved the lives of many because they could think critically. And it's everything you're saying.

Cory Richards 3:06 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 3:07 Which is in time of tension, they go calm, they self-regulate, they think about the problem.

Cory Richards 3:12 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 3:13 They have options as opposed to, you know, black and white and panic.

Cory Richards 3:16 Right. Right. The key component, I think, of resilience that is the jumping-off point, and it goes back to my dad, is agency.

Simon Sinek 3:22 Yeah.

Cory Richards 3:22 Because if you're looking at why did this happen, this happened to me, if you're in a place of victimhood or if you're in a place of blame, y- y- you are quite literally backwards looking.

Simon Sinek 3:34 Mm-hmm.

Cory Richards 3:34 There's no forward focus there. You're, you're, y- I mean-

Simon Sinek 3:38 This happened to me.

Cory Richards 3:39 This happened to me.

Simon Sinek 3:40 Mm-hmm.

Cory Richards 3:40 Not this is the current situation.

Simon Sinek 3:43 Right.

Cory Richards 3:43 I can figure out, I can go to my therapist and figure out-

Simon Sinek 3:46 There's a time and place for that

Cory Richards 3:46 ... there's a time and place for that.

Simon Sinek 3:48 Right.

Cory Richards 3:48 But in those critical moments, it's about taking agency of the situation.

Simon Sinek 3:52 Mm.

Cory Richards 3:52 I mean, we saw it with the fires. Nine of my friends, overnight, homeless.

Simon Sinek 3:56 Mm-hmm.

Cory Richards 3:57 I mean, they're my whole core men's community.

Simon Sinek 3:59 Mm-hmm.

Cory Richards 3:59 They all lived in the Palisades. And it's a natural response. When we are in threat-

Simon Sinek 4:03 Mm-hmm

Cory Richards 4:03 ... when we are in pain-

Simon Sinek 4:04 Mm-hmm

Cory Richards 4:04 ... we naturally look for places to, to put blame.

Simon Sinek 4:08 Of course.

Cory Richards 4:08 Right?

Simon Sinek 4:08 It helps us feel better.

Cory Richards 4:09 It helps us feel better.

Simon Sinek 4:10 Sure.

Cory Richards 4:10 It's an, it's a, it's a outsourcing-

Simon Sinek 4:13 Yeah

Cory Richards 4:13 ... of pain. The friends who did that recovered far less, um, well, far s-

Simon Sinek 4:23 They didn't recover

Cory Richards 4:24 ... they didn't, they didn't recover as well-

Simon Sinek 4:26 Mm-hmm

Cory Richards 4:27 ... as the ones who basically said-

Simon Sinek 4:29 It happened

Cory Richards 4:30 ... "My house burned down."

Simon Sinek 4:31 Mm-hmm.

Cory Richards 4:31 "Now what do I do? I can figure out the fire hydrants and the, the reservoirs later. Right now, I need to slow it down to speed up." Slow is fast.

Simon Sinek 4:41 Mm-hmm.

Cory Richards 4:42 And that is a resilience mindset.

Simon Sinek 4:43 Mm-hmm.

Cory Richards 4:44 If you're in, you're, there is an element of survival mode-

Simon Sinek 4:47 Mm-hmm

Cory Richards 4:47 ... but you're not

Cory Richards 4:49 outsourcing it.

Simon Sinek 4:49 So go back to your model. You, so it's, it's-

Cory Richards 4:51 So it's-

Simon Sinek 4:52 It starts with self-regulation

Cory Richards 4:52 ... it s- it starts with agency.

Simon Sinek 4:54 Mm-hmm.

Cory Richards 4:54 I mean, yes, self-regulation, but so basically the sort of four key components are agency is everything.

Simon Sinek 5:00 Mm-hmm.

Cory Richards 5:01 Um, so taking ownership over the situation.

Simon Sinek 5:04 Which is the opposite of victimization.

Cory Richards 5:06 Yeah. 100%.

Simon Sinek 5:07 Mm-hmm.

Cory Richards 5:08 Agency is everything. Discovery demands discomfort, meaning you have to lean in-

Simon Sinek 5:14 Mm-hmm

Cory Richards 5:14 ... to, to, to the discomfort of the situation and not try to escape it.

Simon Sinek 5:18 Mm-hmm.

Cory Richards 5:19 And they all work hand in hand. The third is certainty kills curiosity.

Simon Sinek 5:23 Mm-hmm.

Cory Richards 5:23 Meaning as soon as you're certain about something, growth is done.

Simon Sinek 5:26 Mm-hmm.

Cory Richards 5:26 Right? And then, you know, adaptation leads to evolution, which is about not trying to remake something, but trying to reimagine something-

Simon Sinek 5:37 Mm-hmm

Cory Richards 5:37 ... from the ground up. You can take pieces from the past, so long as you're not married to it, but you can't remake the past. You just can't functionally.

Simon Sinek 5:44 Can you give me a specific story that you have gone through where you were able to apply those four elements and manage through something that you may have not have been able to in the past before you were able to have such clarity?

Cory Richards 5:57 It's a beautiful question because it leads to this moment right here.

Simon Sinek 6:00 Mm-hmm.

Cory Richards 6:01 Um, in 2021Height of COVID, I had been training for a new route on Everest- Mm-hmm ... to climb something that had never been climbed before by anybody, do it without oxygen. And we had tried in 2019 and failed, or not gotten to the top. We can get back to failure, 'cause I don't believe in it. In the history of the universe, not one sing- single thing has ever failed. Yeah. So- We'll get back to that. Yeah, we'll get back to that. Um, so it's 2021 and we, the Everest season from the north side, which is where we were climbing from, the Tibetan side, gets canceled. And so we have all this money saved. We're, we're making a film about my dying father and, and this climb and, and mental health, and we decide to go to a mountain called Dhaulagiri, which is the seventh highest mountain in the world. It's sort of like a dry run. And we ended up at base camp, and I had not been sleeping well. I had, um, not been eating a lot. I was very emotional. I was teary. We flew to base camp in a helicopter, so we jumped elevations really quick, and then we exerted ourselves for three days trying to build a base camp. 'Cause there's no infrastructure there. There's no infrastructure there, especially that time of year, those seasons. Um, again, we were trying a new route, so there's- Mm-hmm ... this hyper-stress going on. Mm-hmm. And the team went out to sort of recon a r- a way onto the face, 'cause nobody had ever climbed it. And, um, I stayed in my tent, and my brain started to speed up, and I started to, to cry uncontrollably. I was trying to read, but I really couldn't make sense of the words. I was reading, I think, "Autobiography of a Yogi" or something like that, and all I kept coming back to was this word love, love, love. But then it was, it was countered by this idea of, like, y- uh, sort of grandiosity and dying. I couldn't make sense of it. Later on, it would be, I think, reasonably diagnosed as a very extreme mixed bipolar episode, which is where you're experiencing crushing depression and hypomania, in my case, all at the same time. So it's incredibly hard. Anyway, I was sitting there, and I ended up just sobbing and screaming into my sleeping bag at the top of my lungs because I didn't want the camp staff to hear what was happening. Team came back, and, uh, I, I, I walked into the cook tent and I was like, "I'm, I'm done." And they're like, "What do you mean you're done?" And I was like, "I'm done." And they're like, "With the expedition?" I mean, dude, hundreds of thousands of dollars, sponsors, like, all of it. And I was like, "No, I'm, I'm, like, done climbing and taking pictures." And their, you know, kind of jaws dropped. I'm s- crying, sobbing at the time. And they're like, "What are you gonna do?" And I'm like, "Move to LA and make movies." [chuckles] You know, so there was, like, uh, there was this amplified, uh, g- grandiosity going on. Next day, I get up, I leave. I walk down the valley. I get on a helicopter. I fly back to Kathmandu. I get on a plane. I fly home. And now I'm getting really depressed. You know, there's a sense of freedom in it. I'm like, "Oh, I freed myself from this," whatever it was. But I get home, and then I get this email. My mom texts me really early in the morning and she said, "Did you get the email from, from Tommy?" Who was part of the team. And it was just this scathing interpretation of what had happened. You know, vast manipulation, hiding behind mental health, like, all of these things. And I was so depressed at the time. I was like, "Well, fuck it. I'll just kill myself." Like, "I'm done. Peace out." Like, and it wasn't the first time I had had that thought in my life. And so I prepared myself and did all, you know, like, took a shower and pulled out a climbing rope and tied a noose and hung it from the ceiling and got up on the stool and... And I, and I was, y- I almost accidentally did it. And, um, anyway, it was... I, I ended up obviously not dying and, and, and reaching out for help and, and really dove in very deep into, into this, into the mental health world. I knew all the words, I knew all the ideas by that point, but I didn't... I had contextualized it. S- you know, people who think a lot do that, and they think that the knowledge is the healing, and the healing isn't the knowledge at all. It's like w- wisdom can't be taught, but knowledge can. Wisdom is the embodiment. And I... And then I didn't know what I was gonna do. I had built this identity as a photographer and as a climber and National Geographic this and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Um, and now none of those things existed. And there was this stark reality and a very deep probing of, "Who am I as a human being? If I don't have these anchors and my value can no longer be tied to an external expression, what does that mean for my humanity?" And so now you see, like, taking agency over the situation. What is the truth? The truth is not- Who am I not, what, who do others think I am? Exactly. Mm-hmm. Like, and here's the reality. I now am stepping into an unknown future. Then you get into this like, I don't, I'm not climbing anymore. I'm not taking photographs. I'm not working for National Geographic. I am not none of these things. So now here I am. These are the hurdles that are impacting me, uh, that are from my past. I need t- to take care of those. I don't know what I'm gonna do. I don't have limitless money. How am I gonna sort this out? Boom. You've got agency. Then you move into discovery demands endurance. That is a very uncomfortable place to be. You've got financial stresses. You've got, um, long-term sort of, you know, life path stresses. You've got identity stresses. And I'm sitting there going... this is the most uncomfortable I've ever been.

Cory Richards 12:13 During that time, I went through a very, very toxic and also formative, beautiful relationship where, you know, I was dating this gal, and I, again, and if you really look at it, I had anchored myself to her beauty. I just thought she was the most beautiful thing in the world, and maybe if I'm standing next to her, that can make up for all the other things that I've let go, you know? And then we moved to Thailand, and then I come to find out that she had actually been... And I write about it in the book, so I feel square talking about this with-- She knows. Um, she approved the chapter. But come to find out that she had been escorting during our relationship. And so now there's this heartbreak involved in this now, too, and that is a deeply uncomfortable place. So there's loss, there's heartbreak, there's... [inhales] And I just had to sit in it, and I just had to sit in it and explore it. Then you get to, well, let's get curious about this. What are the stories that I'm telling? Where is my certainty in this? And are those certainties true? And what stories are those certainties driving that are anchoring me in beliefs?

Simon Sinek 13:22 What is my story? Is that story true?

Cory Richards 13:24 Exactly.

Simon Sinek 13:24 Is that story really true? [chuckles]

Cory Richards 13:25 Is that story real? And if it's not true, what does that mean?

Simon Sinek 13:28 Yeah.

Cory Richards 13:29 So now you're in curiosity-

Simon Sinek 13:30 Yeah

Cory Richards 13:31 ... versus certainty. [lip smack] And out of that came the book-

Simon Sinek 13:37 Mm

Cory Richards 13:37 ... and the books, because it was the mining of all of this that led me to writing what became the first book. And [lip smack] so, and that is, that starts to be an adaptation, right? What's interesting is, and I've said this before, I did not start writing that book from a place of service-

Simon Sinek 13:59 Mm

Cory Richards 14:00 ... at all.

Simon Sinek 14:01 Mm-hmm.

Cory Richards 14:01 I actually started it writing from a place of victimhood. Look at all the things that happened to me. And that went back to the curiosity part, where I'm like, "Wait a minute." You know, like the story with my brother.

Simon Sinek 14:12 Mm.

Cory Richards 14:13 He did all these things. Well, wait a minute. Was it just him?

Simon Sinek 14:17 Mm.

Cory Richards 14:17 Or were you getting something from this? And as soon as I started asking those questions and being willing to write them out-

Simon Sinek 14:24 Mm

Cory Richards 14:25 ... despite all the discomfort, I started discovering-

Simon Sinek 14:29 Mm

Cory Richards 14:29 ... that there was a deeper truth to all of this that allowed me to take more and more and more agency-

Simon Sinek 14:35 Mm

Cory Richards 14:35 ... which allowed me to expand the discomfort, which allowed me to be more curious, and then the words start coming out. And it tr- and it transformed the book from [lip smack] a sob story-

Simon Sinek 14:45 Mm

Cory Richards 14:45 ... into an act of service that says, "This is my life. You've seen it from this side. Now let me tell you what's going on underneath."

Simon Sinek 14:52 And I hope the lessons I've learned are valuable to you so you don't have to go through what I've gone through.

Cory Richards 14:56 Even if we don't know each other, you are not alone.

Simon Sinek 14:58 You're not the only, you're not the first person to go through this.

Cory Richards 15:00 You're not the first person. It doesn't mean it's not unique and special-

Simon Sinek 15:03 Sure

Cory Richards 15:03 ... to you. It feels like it's the only thing.

Simon Sinek 15:06 Yeah.

Cory Richards 15:07 But I just want you to know-

Simon Sinek 15:08 It, it turns a vicious cycle into a virtuous one.

Cory Richards 15:10 Exactly. And so just really recently, this, the, it, all of this solidified. It's where I was like, "Oh, it was really about the discovery of values," which came through my men's work, because it was like, people are like, "Oh, you've h- you've been so resilient in your life." And I'm like, "Mm, mm, mm. I was living in survival," which is why I was doing all of the things that were so dark behind the surface. I was just grabbing for candy, you know?

Simon Sinek 15:40 Okay, so that's where you learned it.

Cory Richards 15:41 Yeah, that's where I learned it.

Simon Sinek 15:42 Tell me an experience where you were able to apply it consciously. You're like, "Ah, okay, I've got these four things. I'm gonna do it."

Cory Richards 15:49 Um-

Simon Sinek 15:50 Or is it not like that?

Cory Richards 15:51 No, no, no, no.

Simon Sinek 15:51 'Cause it sounds prescriptive.

Cory Richards 15:53 This is where it gets back to us right now. It's 2025. I was in Hawaii with now my ex-partner for the holidays. We get a call from my mom. She says, "Dad has an internal bleed. He's been sick for five years. You need to come home. It's happening." So we get on a plane on the th... We land on New Year's Eve. I go see my dad. He bounces back, but it's like, "Okay, this is coming." [lip smack] We come home on the sixth. The fires happen on the seventh. My entire community gets thrust into triage mode, which amplifies everybody's nervous system. [lip smack] My ex and I break up. She's my best friend at the time. I mean, this is very recent, by the way. This is why it's, I'm like, "Give me some whiskey." Um, my ex and I break up, and she's been my best friend for over a year, so the, the thing goes away. Not by design, it was not in any way overlapping, but there was a woman that came into my life at, basically at that exact same moment. [lip smack] And it was the first time in my life that I had a deep internal knowing. I was like, "This is... Oh. Oh, this is like, this is, this is the, the thing that people talk about." It was like I felt something in my gut, in my body, that knew. It was like I had found my mirror. I'd found the person. [inhales] Mom calls again. "Now you really gotta come home." I get on a plane. She calls on Saturday morning. I get on a plane in the afternoon. I arrive, and Dad is definitely dying. My brother, who I hadn't seen, I think, four years, shows up. It's totally amicable. We're here in this together. We sit on my dad's bed that night with my cousin and his wife, and we were giving my dad, like, little, drawing the syringe, the little syringe, little shots of Jameson, you know, sort of in, in between his moments of lucidity. And we're all just laughing and telling stories and, um... [lip smack] And the next day, we had a conversation just about, hey, you know, like-How long is this gonna last? And the hospice people just said, "Hey, just make him comfortable. You know, make him comfortable." And that night, it was clear that he was, he was dying, and, um, we were all exhausted. I went to, to, to lie down for a little bit, and my mom went to take out the recycling or something, and when everybody was out of the room, he died.

Simon Sinek 18:36 Mm-hmm.

Cory Richards 18:38 [sighs] And, you know, I'm still very much processing that. And then, and then this gal that I was so deeply falling in love with, truly falling in love in a way that I've never imagined is even possible, and she, she said, you know, she, uh, d- she was like, "Look, I'm still talking to some other people." And, and I said, "Okay." Like, I can handle that, you know? Like, I'm not-- All I need is communication. And she was going out of town, and I knew she was gonna go on a date, and I said, "Just, look, this is gonna be hard for me, but, like, please just communicate." And she didn't text or communicate for nine or 10 days, and then when we finally communicated again, it was, "I'm gonna pursue this other thing." And, um, and then the totality of everything kinda crashed into me. The fires as a backdrop. Even though the relationship needed to end, she was still my best friend. It wasn't like, wasn't bad. Dad dies. The rocket ship of love and the fall to earth of heartbreak, and I was sitting there on an airplane going, "Any one of these events is, is life-altering, and I'm trying to juggle four at the same time." Every day I wake up now and I try to take agency. What do I really know? I know my dad's dead. I know it hurts. I know I tasted something so sweet, but that's not here anymore for now. Maybe it comes back, maybe it doesn't. Doesn't even matter. Um, so I take agency and I sit in the place of discomfort every day. T- today's been a terrible one. Um, t- terrible. Sometimes I sit in my car and I scream as loud as I fucking can and just cry because it, it just hurts so fucking much. So I'm in the place of just profound discomfort. And every day as I start to make up new stories about my lack of value or why she left or what the other guy has or whatever it is or what my ex is doing now or, or how I've-- whatever. Anytime I start to come up with a story, it's like there's an elbow block of something so deep in me that says, "Uh-uh. You're trying to create certainty, which is a grasp for comfort, which you know is not what you need because it will erase your agency. You're giving all the power away." And so there's the deep curiosity of, "Well, now what?" You know? "Now what?" And I don't know what the adaptation is, but I know that if I stick to my values, I stay in my integrity, I watch the crutches, I know that what's on the other side of this is, uh, profound. And this conversation, in some small or large way, is the adaptation or a piece of it that will lead to the evolution. Anyway.

Simon Sinek 22:14 Thanks for sharing.

Cory Richards 22:15 Jesus. It's just so-- Man, it hurts. But the whiskey's good. [chuckles]

Simon Sinek 22:27 Who's sitting with you in this, through this?

Cory Richards 22:31 Hmm. Well, right now you are. Like, and this is, I think, obviously this is a, a more curated environment, but when people sit and don't try to change it and they just allow you to be sad without silver lining it, without, "At least this way," you know, at least they just sit and they say, "That, that's gotta hurt," those people are the most valuable. They're not trying to change it. When you try to change somebody's pain, you are rejecting it. And so I have this group of men here that-- I have great female friends too, but this group of men, Treehouse, and we talk every day and-

Simon Sinek 23:16 So you have that, you have that.

Cory Richards 23:18 I have that, yeah. Doesn't mean it hurts less.

Simon Sinek 23:20 Yeah.

Cory Richards 23:21 It's just I know that I have a foundational group of people that will always show up.

Simon Sinek 23:29 The part that needs to be underlined here, uh, is that group.

Cory Richards 23:35 Hmm. Totally.

Simon Sinek 23:36 As I said about the story from Jonny Quest, which is, uh, he said, "I'm with you."

Cory Richards 23:42 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 23:42 "And then I had the strength to keep going."

Cory Richards 23:44 Right.

Simon Sinek 23:45 'Cause it's definitely not internal fortitude. I'd already decided I was quitting.

Cory Richards 23:49 Right. Right.

Simon Sinek 23:50 And you're not looking for anybody to fix anything. You said it's agency.

Cory Richards 23:55 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 23:55 You're not looking for anybody to convince you that everything's fine. Everything's not fine.

Cory Richards 23:59 Mm-mm.

Simon Sinek 24:00 And what you're going through is awful. And this is where I think agency is so fascinating, or the ability to be okay with discomfort and all your four things. The question I would raise is, does any of us have the internal fortitude to do any of those four things alone?Or the only reason you can do those four things is because you have a person or a network that when you say, "This is what's happening to me," they simply say to you, "Yeah, that sucks," and validate the way you feel so that you have the strength of feeling not alone in taking agency, sitting in discomfort, you know, or, or being curious.

Cory Richards 24:41 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 24:42 I wonder if the, if the foundation of all those four things is the, the love that people have of you. When you almost ended it-

Cory Richards 24:50 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 24:51 ... who did you call?

Cory Richards 24:53 At that moment, I called my f- my, my then therapist, now friend, um, dear friend, and I just said, "Help. Just help. I don't know what to do." And then my friend Lori came over, and I remember I was in my underwear. I was just laying on the floor, and she just laid down on top of me and put her head on the small of my back. I remember very distinctly first feeling her hair, and then feeling that kind of like w- w- stickiness because I knew she was crying.

Simon Sinek 25:27 Yeah, yeah. The, the salt on salt.

Cory Richards 25:29 The salt on... Yeah.

Simon Sinek 25:29 Yeah.

Cory Richards 25:31 And I remember she just said, "Don't, don't go." And, um, you know, in this situation now, it's never been, um... I haven't gotten to that place because I have this incredible group of people that exemplifies and amplifies love and support, and they can't do anything. They can't do functionally anything-

Simon Sinek 25:56 Yeah

Cory Richards 25:57 ... aside from-

Simon Sinek 25:57 They can't bring your dad back. They can't bring the girl back. They can't-

Cory Richards 26:00 They c- they can't-

Simon Sinek 26:00 There's nothing to solve.

Cory Richards 26:01 There's nothing to solve.

Simon Sinek 26:02 Yeah.

Cory Richards 26:02 There's, there's... And so I think your question is, that is something that I would say I am certain of, is that we can do fantastic things alone, and ultimately the road that you take is your own. You have to do the work. You have to do the steps. You, you... But those steps are made possible y- by the community we keep.

Simon Sinek 26:25 There's an irony in all of your story. There's a deep irony in all of it, which is the glory, the individual glory that comes with climbing a mountain and taking a picture from the top, and yet somebody else took the picture of you.

Cory Richards 26:40 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 26:41 Or somebody else prepped your climbing gear, or somebody else helped get you the sponsor, or, or, or-

Cory Richards 26:47 Yeah

Simon Sinek 26:47 ... and, and, and. This team of people so that one person can have glory. And it's the same with those Olympic medalists-

Cory Richards 26:52 Yeah

Simon Sinek 26:52 ... which is they stand on the podium with the gold medal and say, "Look what I did."

Cory Richards 26:55 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 26:55 And yet the scores of relationships and friends and family and coaches and nutritionists who devoted their lives so that this one person could achieve their dream.

Cory Richards 27:04 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 27:05 And I think the selfishness, what I'm learning, the selfishness is not the desire to climb the mountain or win the gold medal. That's not the selfishness. The selfishness is standing on the top of the mountain or standing on the podium with the gold medal and not saying thank you.

Cory Richards 27:18 Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's the lack of acknowledgement.

Simon Sinek 27:20 It's the lack of gratitude-

Cory Richards 27:22 Yeah

Simon Sinek 27:22 ... is the selfishness. It's not the drive or the accomplishment or the desire to conquer. All of that, I'm realizing, is fine.

Cory Richards 27:29 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 27:30 It's that you stupidly thought you did it alone.

Cory Richards 27:33 Well, it's easy to erase it at that time.

Simon Sinek 27:34 You know, "Look what I did."

Cory Richards 27:36 Look what I did.

Simon Sinek 27:36 Look who I am.

Cory Richards 27:37 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 27:38 You know?

Cory Richards 27:39 Validate me.

Simon Sinek 27:39 Validate me.

Cory Richards 27:40 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 27:41 Tell me how beautiful I am. And your friend came over and laid on top of you-

Cory Richards 27:45 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 27:46 ... and did the most beautiful thing any human being could do for another human being, make them feel not alone.

Cory Richards 27:50 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 27:52 And it literally saved your life.

Cory Richards 27:53 And it saved my life. You know, these multiple things exist at once, right? Like, my mom puts me in the hospital.

Simon Sinek 28:02 At a very formative age.

Cory Richards 28:03 At a very formative age, and I feel abandoned, right?

Simon Sinek 28:06 Mm-hmm.

Cory Richards 28:06 That's-- So I implant this story of abandonment-

Simon Sinek 28:08 Yeah

Cory Richards 28:09 ... in my mind. In her mind, the story is, "I love this child so much."

Simon Sinek 28:12 Mm-hmm.

Cory Richards 28:12 "I want him to be safe." And both those stories are existing concurrently. And, um-

Simon Sinek 28:18 And both are true

Cory Richards 28:19 ... and both are true.

Simon Sinek 28:20 And your point about curiosity is, um, such a valuable one, which is as opposed to, "You did this to me"-

Cory Richards 28:25 Right

Simon Sinek 28:25 ... can you tell me why you chose to do that?

Cory Richards 28:30 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 28:30 Not to me.

Cory Richards 28:31 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 28:32 Like, why did you do that?

Cory Richards 28:33 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 28:33 "Honey, I love you so desperately. It was the most excruciating thing I've ever done in my life. You think I wanna have a hospital take you away from me?"

Cory Richards 28:39 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 28:39 "Of course I didn't, but I-

Cory Richards 28:40 Yeah

Simon Sinek 28:40 ... I thought it is the only way to help you."

Cory Richards 28:42 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 28:43 To hear the other side.

Cory Richards 28:45 Yeah. But that's the thing. I think that, like, w- we look at our culture, right? And w- if we're curious enough about how the stories that people inherited or have told throughout their lives based on the circumstances of their upbringing and their environment, there's deep humanity and compassion there. We don't have to agree with the beliefs that they've arrived at.

Simon Sinek 29:11 Yeah.

Cory Richards 29:12 But we-- But by being curious about their stories, we invite them into dialogue, and it makes us all human. And so i- in that, you start to... Y- you can, you can form bridges between people that have profoundly, uh, polar ideas.

Simon Sinek 29:31 Mm. Mm.

Cory Richards 29:31 But in that conversation, we can find each other.

Simon Sinek 29:34 Yeah.

Cory Richards 29:35 I mean, and that's the thing. I think,

Cory Richards 29:37 like, I've, I've thought a lot about purpose because I think people con- people confuse it. We touched on it earlier.

Simon Sinek 29:45 With accomplishment.

Cory Richards 29:46 People confuse purpose with doing.

Simon Sinek 29:49 Mm-hmm.

Cory Richards 29:50 And purpose is something so much more e- e- elemental.

Simon Sinek 29:53 Mm-hmm.

Cory Richards 29:53 So for me, the way I would define my purpose is simply that my purpose is to connect people with a more authentic understanding of themselves. And in doing so, when we come into confrontation with our own paradoxes, our own contradictions, our own hypocrisies, our own messiness, and we start to extend some level of compassion to ourselves, we're, w- w- we're almost necessarily forced into the understanding that everybody comes with those same complications. And when we arrive at that point, we're then thrust into compassionBy way of empathy. And so if you were to boil purpose down to a single word for me, it would be compassion.

Simon Sinek 30:34 Mm-hmm.

Cory Richards 30:35 I do that through storytelling.

Simon Sinek 30:38 You live a very balanced life.

Cory Richards 30:40 [laughs] Kinda.

Simon Sinek 30:41 No, no. I, I-

Cory Richards 30:42 Yeah

Simon Sinek 30:42 ... I don't mean that glibly. Like, I think of it like entrepreneurial experience versus like a corporate experience, right? Which is, you know, if you live a corporate life, your lows are not gonna be that low.

Cory Richards 30:53 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 30:53 But your highs are not gonna be that high.

Cory Richards 30:55 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 30:55 It's, it's very balanced.

Cory Richards 30:56 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 30:56 And there's nothing wrong with it. It's good. If you choose an entrepreneurial path, your highs are so high, but my God, your lows are so low. But my point is, is you-- is nature abhors imbalance, nature abhors a vacuum.

Cory Richards 31:06 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 31:06 You always seek eq- equilibrium.

Cory Richards 31:08 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 31:08 And so it's gonna find balance.

Cory Richards 31:10 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 31:10 And so if you wanna climb Mount Everest, literally there is nowhere higher you can go.

Cory Richards 31:16 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 31:17 Then you have to accept that the balance of that is going a place where there's probably nowhere lower you can go.

Cory Richards 31:23 Right. Right.

Simon Sinek 31:23 You know? And so you, you live a very balanced life.

Cory Richards 31:28 I like that. Yeah.

Simon Sinek 31:29 And it's not a good thing or a bad thing.

Cory Richards 31:31 Mm-mm.

Simon Sinek 31:31 It's just an is thing.

Cory Richards 31:32 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 31:33 And one of the things that happens on the extremes is the lessons are louder.

Cory Richards 31:39 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 31:40 The lessons are available-

Cory Richards 31:42 Throughout the spectrum

Simon Sinek 31:42 ... throughout the spectrum, but when you go out to the edges, the, the lessons are shouted at you-

Cory Richards 31:48 Yeah

Simon Sinek 31:48 ... rather than explained to you.

Cory Richards 31:49 Yeah. [laughs] That's great. That's awesome. Yeah. It's so true.

Simon Sinek 31:54 Beaten into you, you know? [laughs]

Cory Richards 31:55 Yeah, yeah.

Simon Sinek 31:55 As opposed to l- like sitting down and studying-

Cory Richards 31:59 But yeah

Simon Sinek 31:59 ... for the test.

Cory Richards 32:00 Oh, yeah, I can read through the lines.

Simon Sinek 32:01 Exactly.

Cory Richards 32:01 I can see there. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Simon Sinek 32:03 Have you not learned this yet?

Cory Richards 32:04 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 32:04 You know? [laughs]

Cory Richards 32:05 So, and so often it's like, "No, I haven't."

Simon Sinek 32:07 Exactly.

Cory Richards 32:08 "Okay, let's go again."

Simon Sinek 32:09 [laughs]

Cory Richards 32:09 You know, like serve up another.

Simon Sinek 32:11 And I think as a result, the, your embodiment of those lessons, your clarity of those lessons, your four things I think are absolutely brilliant, and I will be writing them down at the end of this and, and keeping them on a card.

Cory Richards 32:22 And writing a book about it?

Simon Sinek 32:23 No, no.

Cory Richards 32:24 No? [laughs]

Simon Sinek 32:24 Keeping them on a card next to me.

Cory Richards 32:26 Yeah. Yeah.

Simon Sinek 32:26 Because I think they are so profoundly right.

Cory Richards 32:29 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 32:30 And I think the value, the value people like you offer people like us, whether you did it by choice or by accident, to live your life at the top of Everest and just one level above hell.

Cory Richards 32:43 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 32:43 You know? [laughs] 'Cause it's not bottom, but it's-

Cory Richards 32:46 Yeah

Simon Sinek 32:46 ... pretty close to it. Um, or one step before the end-

Cory Richards 32:51 Yeah

Simon Sinek 32:51 ... I mean, is probably more accurate.

Cory Richards 32:53 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 32:54 Because the lessons are so loud and so exaggerated and so clear f- to you and for you, it gives us a clarity that most of us will never have.

Cory Richards 33:03 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 33:03 But the lessons are valuable to all of us.

Cory Richards 33:04 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 33:05 And but, and we will go through trauma, and we will go through difficult, and we will go through discomfort. Most of us, most people, not close to what you've gone through. And so the lessons are there, they're just fuzzier and harder to see.

Cory Richards 33:17 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 33:18 Which is why we go through them over and over again and repeat the same mistakes over and over again, because it takes many times before we have a self, uh, an epiphany where we're like, "Oh, shit." But because it's so loud-

Cory Richards 33:30 Yeah

Simon Sinek 33:30 ... we can hear yours and say thank you.

Cory Richards 33:32 Wow.

Simon Sinek 33:33 You know?

Cory Richards 33:34 I really appreciate that because it, even still, there's h- there's days, there's a lot of times where I'm like, "I don't know if any of this really..."

Simon Sinek 33:41 The selfishness.

Cory Richards 33:42 Yeah, yeah.

Simon Sinek 33:42 If-- I'll tell you what the selfishness is. If there's a selfin- selfishness that goes with your life, it's your choice not to share what you've learned, because it would be unbelievably selfish to, to, to, to keep it to yourself so that you can get over y- your shit.

Cory Richards 33:58 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 33:58 Oh, good for you.

Cory Richards 33:59 Yeah. [laughs] Good for you. Great job.

Simon Sinek 34:01 Well done. You know, I'm so happy for you. But that that would be selfish, and I think the service element is, is, is, is I learned this, let me tell you about it.

Cory Richards 34:14 It's so, so beautifully put.

Simon Sinek 34:17 A- and I, and I believe that true purpose-

Cory Richards 34:20 Yeah

Simon Sinek 34:20 ... like at, you know, we all have our unique why and our purpose and all that, but-

Cory Richards 34:24 Yeah

Simon Sinek 34:25 ... but the universal truth-

Cory Richards 34:26 Yeah

Simon Sinek 34:26 ... the true, true purpose in life is the opportunity to serve those who serve others.

Cory Richards 34:30 I c- I, I have sort of like I c- I cannot agree more. I, there, there is a sort of a list of things that I try to do every day, right? That just, that are, that are sort of foundational to, to sort of health and well-being, and one of them is service.

Simon Sinek 34:45 Mm-hmm.

Cory Richards 34:45 And that can be as simple-- It's reframing our ideas around what service looks like, which is it doesn't have to be volunteering at the homeless shelter, right? Like, that's great, but service can be, to your point earlier, calling a friend and listening without trying to change anything.

Simon Sinek 35:01 Your men's group who just holds space for you is service. Your friend who came and lay on you and-

Cory Richards 35:07 Act of service. Huge

Simon Sinek 35:08 ... and cried on top of you-

Cory Richards 35:09 Yeah

Simon Sinek 35:10 ... is an act of extreme service.

Cory Richards 35:12 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 35:13 You know? And she didn't try to fix you or change you or solve any problem that was going through your mind.

Cory Richards 35:18 Mm-mm.

Simon Sinek 35:18 She simply did the, the most beautiful thing of make you feel not alone. And, um, and your willingness to come here and share things that most people would probably keep to themselves.

Cory Richards 35:28 Yeah. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 35:29 You know? And some of the things that you've shared, uh, people would keep to themselves.

Cory Richards 35:35 Yeah, for sure.

Simon Sinek 35:36 Shame, embarrassment, whatever-

Cory Richards 35:37 Totally

Simon Sinek 35:37 ... the reason.

Cory Richards 35:38 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 35:38 And the courage you have to share the lessons, um, is the most selfless thing I think you can ever do.

Cory Richards 35:47 And the paradox is I had to go do all the things to get it, all the selfish things.

Simon Sinek 35:50 I mean...

Cory Richards 35:52 Or I, I didn't have to.

Simon Sinek 35:53 No, you chose to.

Cory Richards 35:54 I chose to.

Simon Sinek 35:56 You chose to for good reason.

Cory Richards 35:58 Uh, yeah, yeah. And, and, and I, I look back now and I go, wow, you know, the shift in my mind, first and foremost, the realization that I, like we talked, like briefly

Cory Richards 36:08 hit on is like, I don't think failure really exists.

Simon Sinek 36:10 Yeah, say more about that.

Cory Richards 36:11 Well, just like if, if you look-

Simon Sinek 36:13 You said in the history of the world, there's never been a failure.

Cory Richards 36:15 In the history of the universe, there's never been a failure.

Simon Sinek 36:17 So you go-

Cory Richards 36:17 There's been, there's been transitions. There's been change. A, a, a company doesn't fail. A company ceases to be profitable or viable in whatever market or economy they're in.All of the learning from the building of that business-

Simon Sinek 36:34 Mm-hmm

Cory Richards 36:34 ... and the, the disintegration of that business simply splinters-

Simon Sinek 36:38 Mm-hmm

Cory Richards 36:39 ... into new building-

Simon Sinek 36:40 Mm-hmm

Cory Richards 36:40 ... and disintegration. It is, it is literally the Ouroboros. Is it, I don't know if I'm saying that right, but it's life eating itself.

Simon Sinek 36:46 Mm-hmm.

Cory Richards 36:46 It's the snake eating its tail. The, the, the buy-in to this is that-

Simon Sinek 36:50 Or it's the thing that dies and disintegrates and then gives life, and then that dies and disintegrates and gives life-

Cory Richards 36:55 Exactly

Simon Sinek 36:55 ... and it's the circle of life stuff.

Cory Richards 36:57 It's the circle of life. So, so there is not ... And once you ... S- people say, "Well, that's a semantic argument," and I don't agree. It's a consciousness shift. You can't fail.

Simon Sinek 37:05 I mean, I think you're r- it's not y- I don't think it's a s- a semantic argument. I think it's finite and infinite games.

Cory Richards 37:10 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 37:11 You know, I think it's, it's, as you said, it's not the end. It's the transition.

Cory Richards 37:15 And, and the transition is deeply uncomfortable.

Simon Sinek 37:17 It's not the end of the relationship. It's the transition into something different.

Cory Richards 37:20 Into something different, into a new understanding.

Simon Sinek 37:22 And better or worse is, you know, who knows?

Cory Richards 37:24 Well, better and worse, again, that's so interest- like, I-

Simon Sinek 37:26 But I mean, I'm saying I'm not, I'm not-

Cory Richards 37:28 Yeah

Simon Sinek 37:28 ... it, it, they're all temporary states anyway.

Cory Richards 37:30 Well, it's d- d- and they're value applications.

Simon Sinek 37:32 Yeah.

Cory Richards 37:32 And they're stories, right? So there are no good or bad decisions.

Simon Sinek 37:36 Yeah.

Cory Richards 37:36 There are decisions and results, and then depending on the level of comfort that we have in the result-

Simon Sinek 37:42 Yeah

Cory Richards 37:43 ... we apply the label or the story good or bad.

Simon Sinek 37:46 A- and both are temporary.

Cory Richards 37:48 They're all temporary.

Simon Sinek 37:49 Like, I love when people say, you know, "We're the number one blah, blah, blah," and I always go, "For now."

Cory Richards 37:52 For now.

Simon Sinek 37:53 You know? It's like, "I'm happy, for now."

Cory Richards 37:55 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 37:55 "I'm sad, for now."

Cory Richards 37:56 The point is not to escape pain.

Simon Sinek 37:57 No.

Cory Richards 37:58 What would life be without pain?

Simon Sinek 37:59 But I, I, and I, and I think that, I mean, yours more extreme than mine-

Cory Richards 38:05 Mm

Simon Sinek 38:05 ... and ours more extreme or less extreme than others, you know? Which is s- the, the, the experiences that I had that led me to Start With Why, for example, um, I never wanna go through those things ever again.

Cory Richards 38:17 Ugh.

Simon Sinek 38:17 But I'm glad they happened. And I'm sure, like, the experiences that you've shared today, and I know there's others, I don't think you wanna relive any of them.

Cory Richards 38:24 No.

Simon Sinek 38:25 But are you glad they happened?

Cory Richards 38:28 I love my brother so much, and I, I remember when I woke up, it was, it was a day. Like, I remember waking up and going, "Oh my God, he's my greatest guide, the biggest gift I've ever been given."

Simon Sinek 38:40 Mm.

Cory Richards 38:41 In my entire life is that relationship, that man. In my heart, lay down at his feet and thank him every day.

Simon Sinek 38:50 Mm.

Cory Richards 38:51 Because had the tapestry of our relationship not been so knotted and intertwined in the way that it was, I wouldn't be the person that I am.

Simon Sinek 39:00 Mm.

Cory Richards 39:01 And so it's extending that gratitude to all the circumstances of life, and being able to see it in its totality and settle into the fact that it's making you who you are, and that is an ever-changing, ever-evolving process that frees you from the bondage of blame and victimhood and, and prolonged suffering.

Simon Sinek 39:26 Mm. I could talk to you for hours. Cory, thanks so much for coming.

Cory Richards 39:31 Thanks for having me. This was-

Simon Sinek 39:32 I appreciate it

Cory Richards 39:33 ... awesome. Really, really great.

Simon Sinek 39:35 I have no desire to climb Mount Everest. I'd like to go to base camp and just sit and look at the beautiful mountain.

Cory Richards 39:40 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 39:40 But that's about it.

Cory Richards 39:41 Let's go.

Simon Sinek 39:42 Yeah.

Cory Richards 39:42 Let's walk to Kalapatthar. In fact, you don't even need to go to base camp. Kalapatthar is this area where you go up and there's a view. It's the classic view where you get-

Simon Sinek 39:51 Oh, yeah, of the Mo- the Mount Everest

Cory Richards 39:52 ... of the three mountains. If you go to base camp, [laughs] it's dirty, it's crowded, people are sick, and you can't even see Everest. It's, it's-

Simon Sinek 40:02 Yeah, so then I'll go to wherever you said.

Cory Richards 40:03 Yeah, yeah, Kalapatthar.

Simon Sinek 40:04 Kalapatthar.

Cory Richards 40:04 Yeah, yeah.

Simon Sinek 40:04 All right. I've always wanted to go to Kalapatthar.

Cory Richards 40:06 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 40:06 [laughs]

Cory Richards 40:06 Yeah. We'll listen to some yak bells and spin some prayer wheels and drink tea.

Simon Sinek 40:11 That sounds good.

Cory Richards 40:12 Yeah. It's great. It's perfect.

Simon Sinek 40:13 And I can get a sponsorship.

Cory Richards 40:15 Yeah. We can get a sp-

Simon Sinek 40:16 [laughs]

Cory Richards 40:16 Who wants to sponsor us right now?

Simon Sinek 40:17 Sponsorship to go to the bottom of the mountain.

Cory Richards 40:19 Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Simon Sinek 40:19 Let's, let's, let's see your high performance, your high performance clothing do with-

Cory Richards 40:23 We can-

Simon Sinek 40:23 ... do with the bottom. [laughs]

Cory Richards 40:24 We can raise, we can raise some money for cancer research along the way.

Simon Sinek 40:27 There we go.

Cory Richards 40:27 Yeah, yeah.

Simon Sinek 40:28 Perfect.

Cory Richards 40:28 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 40:28 And inspire children all over the world.

Cory Richards 40:30 And inspire children all over the world.

Simon Sinek 40:31 [laughs]

Cory Richards 40:31 It'll be fabulous. I love it.

Simon Sinek 40:37 [outro music] If you enjoyed this podcast and would like to hear more, please subscribe wherever you like to listen to podcasts. And if you'd like even more optimism, check out my website, simonsinek.com, for classes, videos, and more. Until then, take care of yourself, take care of each other. A Bit of Optimism is a production of The Optimism Company. It's produced and edited by Lindsay Garbinus, David Ja, and Devon Johnson. Our executive producers are Henrietta Conrad and Greg Ruethenschloesser.