The Climb Out of Pain is Taller Than Everest with Nat Geo photographer Cory Richards PART 1

1. 0:00 – 3:24

   An intro to Cory Richards

   1. SSSimon Sinek0:00

      So you are officially the first guest who, when I said, "Would you like a drink, cup of tea, glass of water?" You said, "I'd love a scotch."

   2. CRCory Richards0:07

      Yeah. [chuckles]

   3. SSSimon Sinek0:08

      And, uh, and so you, you're preparing yourself what this conversation might be, and you are actually drinking [chuckles] ...

   4. CRCory Richards0:13

      I am actually

   5. SSSimon Sinek0:13

      ... very nice, it's actually not scotch. It's a very nice local whiskey.

   6. CRCory Richards0:16

      It's, but it's, but let's be clear, you know. You didn't pour it here.

   7. SSSimon Sinek0:18

      No, I didn't pour a tumbler of it.

   8. CRCory Richards0:20

      It wasn't like, uh, it wasn't like-

   9. SSSimon Sinek0:22

      No, it's a sip

   10. CRCory Richards0:22

       ... Drunk History.

   11. SSSimon Sinek0:22

       No, it's, yeah. [laughs] It's not Drunk History. What happens after you reach the top? There's only one place to go. Cory Richards has literally reached the top of the world. As a National Geographic photographer and filmmaker, he climbed Mount Everest without oxygen. He's also the first American to climb an 8,000 meter or 26,000 foot peak during the winter. You may know him from the iconic cover of National Geographic, the one with the selfie he took after he survived an avalanche. But there's a twist. After all that success, Cory did not find peace. Instead, he found chaos. Cory's journey is about more than conquering mountains. It was raw, vulnerable, and deeply moving in ways I did not expect. In fact, we talked for so long that we decided to cut his episode into two. It's about conquering mental health, identity, and purpose, and what happens when we mistake our biggest goals for our true purpose. This is A Bit of Optimism. [music] Speaking of, uh, whiskey. [laughs] You put in a tobacco thing.

   12. CRCory Richards1:42

       Yeah.

   13. SSSimon Sinek1:43

       You got a glass of whiskey.

   14. CRCory Richards1:44

       Yeah. [laughs]

   15. SSSimon Sinek1:46

       Um, like you got it all, like-

   16. CRCory Richards1:49

       I've got all the pathologies

   17. SSSimon Sinek1:49

       ... you got all the, you got all the things.

   18. CRCory Richards1:51

       All, all the crutches.

   19. SSSimon Sinek1:51

       All the crutches, all the pathologies.

   20. CRCory Richards1:53

       People think that like, oh, he's just totally, you know, he's gotten rid of all this. And I mean, I think that's one of the points of this, is that the crutches aren't necessarily bad, so long as you see them as for what they are. Like, I'm self-soothing. My nervous system is a wreck right now, you know?

   21. SSSimon Sinek2:09

       Mm-hmm.

   22. CRCory Richards2:09

       And like, so long as it doesn't go down this, like, highly destructive path, I think giving yourself from some grace around that is actually probably far more beneficial.

   23. SSSimon Sinek2:19

       We're jumping right in. I think you're 100% right, and I think the, the crutches are not the unhealthy thing. It's that some of the crutches are unhealthy.

   24. CRCory Richards2:28

       Yeah.

   25. SSSimon Sinek2:28

       Right? 'Cause you, maybe you smoked, but now you just chew gum.

   26. CRCory Richards2:31

       Right. Right.

   27. SSSimon Sinek2:32

       Okay. So, or maybe you did X, you know-

   28. CRCory Richards2:36

       Yeah

   29. SSSimon Sinek2:36

       ... you did something very unhealthy.

   30. CRCory Richards2:38

       Yeah.
2. 3:24 – 10:51

   Cory survived an avalanche

   1. SSSimon Sinek3:24

      [laughs] Didn't you, like, survive an avalanche? [laughs]

   2. CRCory Richards3:30

      Oh my God, I love it. It's so funny. Um, I did survive an avalanche, so I can, I can tell the story. I mean, it's great.

   3. SSSimon Sinek3:36

      I mean, sure. Let's go for it.

   4. CRCory Richards3:37

      Yeah, yeah, let's hear it.

   5. SSSimon Sinek3:37

      [laughs]

   6. CRCory Richards3:38

      Everybody wants that story, so let's do it. Um...

   7. SSSimon Sinek3:40

      [laughs] It's like y- um, unfortunately, you're like Aretha Franklin. Like you have to sing "Respect."

   8. CRCory Richards3:45

      You gotta play the hits.

   9. SSSimon Sinek3:46

      You gotta sing "Respect."

   10. CRCory Richards3:47

       Right? Like, um...

   11. SSSimon Sinek3:48

       [laughs]

   12. CRCory Richards3:50

       So, well, and it's a very important, it's like a very interesting point of the story because I, so I went to climb this mountain called Gasherbrum II, which is a mountain, it's the 13th highest mountain in the world. Um, it's in Pakistan, and just to give people some context, I've, you know, I, I can run through this because people need to know. There are 14 mountains in the world that are higher than 8,000 meters, and one is in India, eight are on the border of Nepal and Tibet, and then five are in Pakistan. After they were all climbed in the early '80s, the Polish, who are some of the best climbers in the world, were just like, "All right, so those were hard. Now let's just make it harder. Let's go climb all of them in the winter." And so all of the, the nine south of Pakistan had been climbed by 2000, the winter of 2010, '11. And I got invited by a-

   13. SSSimon Sinek4:43

       Which is surprisingly late.

   14. CRCory Richards4:45

       Yeah. Yeah.

   15. SSSimon Sinek4:45

       Like only the past sort of, you know, 10, 15 years.

   16. CRCory Richards4:48

       Yeah, exactly. None of the ones in Pakistan had been climbed.

   17. SSSimon Sinek4:52

       Wow.

   18. CRCory Richards4:52

       And so I got invited by a guy named Simone Moro, who's an Italian climber, and another guy, Denis Urubko. Denis didn't invite me, but Denis became a very good f- he's Russian, and he, we'd just sit there and be like, "But, but Simone, why we bring stupid American boy? He's nuts."

   19. SSSimon Sinek5:06

       [laughs]

   20. CRCory Richards5:06

       Like, "Bro, I'm standing right next to you," you know? Like, he's like, "Yes, Cory, be quiet. Men talking." You know? Like...

   21. SSSimon Sinek5:11

       [laughs]

   22. CRCory Richards5:12

       And I was 29 at the time. Um, [laughs] and by the way, Simone has this voice that is just epic. He's, and I'm not exaggerating, he talked like this the whole time.

   23. SSSimon Sinek5:23

       [laughs]

   24. CRCory Richards5:23

       Talked like this. Very, very funny man. And I tell this story of sitting in the tent with him, and he's like, I mean, I t- I've told this story a lot, but it's hysterical. It's worth repeating. He's like, "Cory, you must come to Italy. Most beautiful beaches in the world." And I'm like, "Bro, what?" And he's like, "Most beautiful beaches ever seen." And I'm like, "What are you..." And he's like, and I was like, oh, he's talking about beaches. [laughs]

   25. SSSimon Sinek5:44

       [laughs]

   26. CRCory Richards5:45

       Like, beaches. All right. Yeah, yeah. Okay, cool. The beaches. I'll come see the beaches. You know, I'll come to the Amalfi or whatever. I was just, "Most beautiful beaches in the world." Um, so anyway, we're in the middle of Pakistan in winter, 26 years-16 expeditions have tried and failed to climb one of these mountains in the winter. People have died, whatever. I didn't really know that. These were just, like, my heroes, so I was like, "Yeah, of course I'll go." And I wasn't even planning on going to the summit necessarily. They just wanted sort of a cam- I was on the North Face team at the time. And, um, and so we end up climbing it. Like, we get this very, very narrow weather window. We leave the tent. It's minus 51 centigrade in the tent in the morning, or I guess at night, 11:00. We climb through the night on February 2nd, and we get to the top, and up there it's about minus 80. And the weather window-

   27. SSSimon Sinek6:38

       Centigrade?

   28. CRCory Richards6:39

       Centigrade.

   29. SSSimon Sinek6:39

       Whoa.

   30. CRCory Richards6:39

       So it's colder than that Fahrenheit at that point.
3. 10:51 – 25:48

   Cory's volatile childhood

   1. SSSimon Sinek10:51

      What kind of kid were you?

   2. CRCory Richards10:52

      I was, uh, I was volatile, meaning that, like, I was, I was a moody kid, and my-- So my, just as a piece of the backstory, my mom took me to see a psychologist when I was one, right? So there's this very deep story of mental health that comes on the scene pretty much immediately. You know? I don't know-

   3. SSSimon Sinek11:13

      Were you the first kid?

   4. CRCory Richards11:14

      I was the second. So my brother, who, who factors very heavily into this story, um, also, he was just more self-assured and more sturdy, but that also kind of made him an island. We had a really m- marvelous early childhood. Like, my parents were, they were awesome.

   5. SSSimon Sinek11:33

      And where'd you grow up?

   6. CRCory Richards11:34

      Salt Lake City.

   7. SSSimon Sinek11:34

      Okay.

   8. CRCory Richards11:35

      Where'd you grow up?

   9. SSSimon Sinek11:36

      All over the place. [clears throat] But m- my formative years were in New Jersey, outside of New York City.

   10. CRCory Richards11:41

       Oh, okay. What exit?

   11. SSSimon Sinek11:43

       Uh, two off of 9W.

   12. CRCory Richards11:44

       [laughs] Okay. Um, yeah. So I, I mean, we, we, we started skiing when we were two. We started climbing when we were five, and the whole early childhood development piece, at least externally, was really beautiful, and we, we spent a lot of time outdoors. Both my parents were in education. Um-And yet there were some things going on that laid the groundwork very much for what I encountered later, which was a very tumultuous adolescence, which we'll get to in just a second. But, um, my mom had postpartum depression with both of us, which i- if you look at the sort of the psychological machinations of, of early childhood development, has a profound impact, specifically in attachment styles and how we relate to our parents and getting our emotional needs met and finding coping mechanisms to navigate that, that disconnect. And my mom also worked full-time, so my dad was kind of our primary caregiver 'cause he was a school teacher. So, so we formed this very tight bond with Dad early on and, and m- my mother did nothing wrong. I mean, there's no blame here at all. It's just the way it was. And then as we got into our adolescence, and both of us were smart kids, right? So we were accelerated learners. Both of us went to high school two years early, and both of us were kind of smashing, getting good grades. And then there was this development of violence. It was very rageful. And-

   13. SSSimon Sinek13:11

       In you or in the family?

   14. CRCory Richards13:12

       Uh, between my brother and I.

   15. SSSimon Sinek13:14

       Okay.

   16. CRCory Richards13:15

       And l- mostly aimed at me.

   17. SSSimon Sinek13:17

       Mm-hmm.

   18. CRCory Richards13:18

       Uh, which for the longest time I was like, "Oh, poor me. Look, my brother kicked the shit out of me." And, um, brothers fight. It's normal.

   19. SSSimon Sinek13:25

       Mm-hmm.

   20. CRCory Richards13:25

       Um, but this was different. It was very rage-fueled and, and so to the point of, like, child protective services being called, right? Like it was, it was dark.

   21. SSSimon Sinek13:35

       It was, right, more than just boys fighting.

   22. CRCory Richards13:36

       It was more than brothers fighting, and so that had a deep impact on me, as it did on him. But, but I, you know, it's like, "Oh, he beat me up," and that was the story for a long time. And then really in reflection, looking back on it, I was like, well, yes, and I learned that if he beat me up, I got a lot of attention. So then I started feeding into the o- my own cycle of violence or, or abuse, if you wanna call it that. And again, there's no... I don't blame my brother-

   23. SSSimon Sinek14:05

       Mm-hmm

   24. CRCory Richards14:05

       ... in any way, shape, or form. It was just the dynamic that was there. And so my grades went from straight A's to dropping out, basically. I got put on medication. I got hospitalized.

   25. SSSimon Sinek14:19

       How old are you at this time?

   26. CRCory Richards14:20

       I was, like, 13 when I got hospitalized the first time.

   27. SSSimon Sinek14:23

       What was the diagnosis?

   28. CRCory Richards14:24

       Well, it became bipolar II.

   29. SSSimon Sinek14:26

       Okay.

   30. CRCory Richards14:27

       And I got put in this long-term inpatient/outpatient care facility. I was there for eight months.
4. 25:48 – 29:52

   Cory's reasons for climbing

   1. SSSimon Sinek25:48

      what did you get out of it? Like, what was the reason you wanted to go climb the mountain?

   2. CRCory Richards25:52

      Hmm.

   3. SSSimon Sinek25:53

      Is it like Edmund Hillary, 'cause it was there?

   4. CRCory Richards25:55

      Uh, no. I've, I've always hated that answer. I think it's so lazy. But I, like, look, I love Ed Hillary, right? Like, climbed Everest. Um, i- i- it-

   5. SSSimon Sinek26:04

      And Tenzing Norgay.

   6. CRCory Richards26:05

      And Tenzing, uh-

   7. SSSimon Sinek26:05

      We have to give them both credit.

   8. CRCory Richards26:06

      We- I think Tenzing t- technically probably did it first, you know?

   9. SSSimon Sinek26:10

      He probably did a few times before you.

   10. CRCory Richards26:11

       Yeah, yeah. So, um, [laughs] I, what I got out of climbing was a sense of purpose, a sense of fulfillment, and a sense of expression.

   11. SSSimon Sinek26:21

       Mm-hmm.

   12. CRCory Richards26:23

       I also got a deep sense of validation, where the more notoriety I got-

   13. SSSimon Sinek26:30

       Mm-hmm

   14. CRCory Richards26:30

       ... the more I could mistake external validation for love.

   15. SSSimon Sinek26:36

       Mm-hmm. 'Cause it felt good.

   16. CRCory Richards26:38

       It feels good.

   17. SSSimon Sinek26:39

       Just like getting attention when you were a kid.

   18. CRCory Richards26:41

       Of course.

   19. SSSimon Sinek26:42

       Mm.

   20. CRCory Richards26:42

       And the other thing that's so interesting about it is that, that so often people with chaotic childhoods-

   21. SSSimon Sinek26:47

       Yeah

   22. CRCory Richards26:47

       ... violent childhoods-

   23. SSSimon Sinek26:48

       Mm-hmm

   24. CRCory Richards26:49

       ... uh, traumatic childhoods gravitate towards very high-risk endeavors.

   25. SSSimon Sinek26:52

       Mm-hmm.

   26. CRCory Richards26:53

       Because their minds are uniquely adapted to it. We don't have any future forecasting. So it's like, you know, m- "Hold my beer, I'm gonna try something," you know? [laughs] And, uh, "Hey man, watch this." Um-

   27. SSSimon Sinek27:06

       Terrible for life, fantastic for extreme sports.

   28. CRCory Richards27:08

       Exactly.

   29. SSSimon Sinek27:09

       [laughs]

   30. CRCory Richards27:09

       And so you can see there is some maladaptation there, for sure. It very, like it, it, it, it-
5. 29:52 – 33:56

   A selfish pursuit

   1. CRCory Richards29:52

      more with you. I've always said climbing is inherently selfish. I don't think that that means it's, that, that it's sort of sidecar impacts aren't positive-

   2. SSSimon Sinek30:01

      Sure

   3. CRCory Richards30:01

      ... for people.

   4. SSSimon Sinek30:02

      Absolutely.

   5. CRCory Richards30:02

      And so there's-

   6. SSSimon Sinek30:03

      But they're not the intention.

   7. CRCory Richards30:04

      They're not the intention. Nobody's-

   8. SSSimon Sinek30:06

      It's not a service-oriented

   9. CRCory Richards30:08

      Not at all

   10. SSSimon Sinek30:08

       ... activity

   11. CRCory Richards30:08

       You're not in service. And it's so funny, it always bugged me that sort of the Everest expeditions that would go and be like, "I'm climbing Everest to raise money for cancer." I think that's great, but that's not why you're climbing Everest. You wanna climb Everest, and it's a way, in some ways, to make yourself feel better about the selfishness that you know is, is, is there.

   12. SSSimon Sinek30:28

       Or if I'm gonna do this, might as well raise some money for charity.

   13. CRCory Richards30:31

       For sure. Sure.

   14. SSSimon Sinek30:31

       Again, e- either one works. Yeah.

   15. CRCory Richards30:32

       It's a yes and.

   16. SSSimon Sinek30:33

       It's a yes and. Right, right, right.

   17. CRCory Richards30:34

       It's always a yes and. So I, I, again, I think there's this really beautiful component that it does have this extended impact, and at the same time, I, I'll just speak for myself, it was never... And even my career with National Geographic, it was never about policy change. It was never about necessarily telling other people's stories, and it's kind of embarrassing to say that. It was always about me because I felt like, "Look, look at what I can do, and validate me." I'm very proud of the policy change that came out of some of those stories. I'm very proud of the conservation that came out of some of those stories, but that's not what it was.

   18. SSSimon Sinek31:14

       Mm-hmm.

   19. CRCory Richards31:14

       And so I, I 100% agree with you. And later in this sort of trajectory of life, I had the same realization that you did. [lip smack] And I often say that my rock bottom was the summit of Everest because I realized there's literally no place else I can go.

   20. SSSimon Sinek31:34

       There's nowhere higher.

   21. CRCory Richards31:35

       There's nowhere higher. There's nowhere else I can go to get away from myself.

   22. SSSimon Sinek31:40

       S- uh, did you climb with or without oxygen?

   23. CRCory Richards31:42

       The first time without. Second time, I put it on right below the summit.

   24. SSSimon Sinek31:46

       Why would you go to, what is it, 27,000 feet?

   25. CRCory Richards31:49

       2935.

   26. SSSimon Sinek31:50

       2935. I mean, that's like a cr- that's a cruising altitude for an aircraft.

   27. CRCory Richards31:53

       Yeah.

   28. SSSimon Sinek31:53

       Why the hell would you do-- Like, I don't want them to turn off the oxygen in flight.

   29. CRCory Richards31:57

       No.

   30. SSSimon Sinek31:58

       Why, why, what motivates you to, to...
6. 33:56 – 39:06

   What Everest taught Cory Richards

   1. SSSimon Sinek33:56

      And I'm curious if climbing Everest without oxygen the first time gave you the strength to dot, dot, dot.

   2. CRCory Richards34:03

      [exhales] It's such a good question because I never thought of it in those terms, right? Like that would, for me to go back and paint it that way would be sort of a revisionist history. Doesn't mean it's not true.

   3. SSSimon Sinek34:14

      But you do know I was only aware of that-

   4. CRCory Richards34:17

      Mm-hmm

   5. SSSimon Sinek34:17

      ... after I wrote, in the writing of the book.

   6. CRCory Richards34:19

      Right. Right.

   7. SSSimon Sinek34:20

      So you may have only learned the lesson years later.

   8. CRCory Richards34:23

      Yeah.

   9. SSSimon Sinek34:23

      Like, I wouldn't be doing this now-

   10. CRCory Richards34:25

       Yeah

   11. SSSimon Sinek34:25

       ... if I hadn't done that.

   12. CRCory Richards34:26

       Yeah, for sure, and I, I mean, that's how I felt-

   13. SSSimon Sinek34:28

       E- even, even just, by the way, conquering life.

   14. CRCory Richards34:31

       [chuckles] Yeah. Life is-

   15. SSSimon Sinek34:32

       You know, boy, this is difficult, but I did that, so this is easy

   16. CRCory Richards34:35

       So I can do it. You know? Like... [laughs] Life, life is savage, dude. Life is, life is so metal. Um, you know, I think, yes, th- there, there, there was some of that, where doing these things allowed me a certain degree of endurance to withstand other things. Primarily, I would say some of the mental health challenges.

   17. SSSimon Sinek34:59

       So, so physical pain, your body destroying itself, eating itself, 'cause that's, I think people forget that, that yes-

   18. CRCory Richards35:04

       Yeah

   19. SSSimon Sinek35:04

       ... your body can adapt to altitude, but it's still eating itself.

   20. CRCory Richards35:07

       It's dying.

   21. SSSimon Sinek35:07

       Yeah.

   22. CRCory Richards35:08

       It's actively dying, so you're on a, you're on the clock.

   23. SSSimon Sinek35:10

       Mm-hmm.

   24. CRCory Richards35:11

       You're, you're literally racing time. Um, [lip smack] pushing through that l- that level of fear or apprehension to then accomplish that goal, of course f- gives you some level, some new level of what you're capable of.

   25. SSSimon Sinek35:28

       Yeah.

   26. CRCory Richards35:29

       And it expands your degree of tolerance-

   27. SSSimon Sinek35:36

       Mm-hmm

   28. CRCory Richards35:36

       ... for discomfort in a way. At least-

   29. SSSimon Sinek35:39

       Makes sense

   30. CRCory Richards35:39

       ... physical, physical discomfort, which can be transmuted-
7. 39:06 – 44:01

   Why Simon quit writing "Leaders Eat Last"

   1. SSSimon Sinek39:06

      th- this, I learned this lesson more powerfully with the second book, believe it or not.

   2. CRCory Richards39:10

      Right.

   3. SSSimon Sinek39:10

      Because that one, I, I, it, I quit in the middle.

   4. CRCory Richards39:14

      Mm-hmm.

   5. SSSimon Sinek39:14

      I couldn't do it.

   6. CRCory Richards39:15

      Huh. Why?

   7. SSSimon Sinek39:17

      Uh, so, so Leaders Eat Last was the most difficult thing I've ever done in my life.

   8. CRCory Richards39:21

      Yeah.

   9. SSSimon Sinek39:21

      It took years of my life and cost me two relationships.

   10. CRCory Richards39:23

       Mm.

   11. SSSimon Sinek39:23

       You know, I was not fun. I wasn't happy. It was stressful. I would, like A Beautiful Mind, I would write with dry erase in my bathroom on all the tiles.

   12. CRCory Richards39:32

       Mm.

   13. SSSimon Sinek39:32

       So like if I had an idea in the shower, I'd quickly jump out and write it on the tile, or if I was brushing my teeth-

   14. CRCory Richards39:36

       Mm

   15. SSSimon Sinek39:36

       ... and I'd stand there and read a whole... And like literally, you'd walk into my bathroom and the tiles were filled with like these crazy ideas. And I couldn't understand why all the social scientists... 'Cause all I did was take the biology of, of like, of the chemicals, dopamine-

   16. CRCory Richards39:48

       Right

   17. SSSimon Sinek39:49

       ... uh, uh, uh, endorphins, serotonin, oxytocin, cortisol, and overlaid them on corporate culture and said, "Let's see what happens."

   18. CRCory Richards39:55

       Right.

   19. SSSimon Sinek39:56

       And I was calling scientists to understand oxytocin, dopamine, like asking them questions.

   20. CRCory Richards39:59

       Yeah.

   21. SSSimon Sinek39:59

       I couldn't understand why none of them had written, not written this book. It seemed so obvious-

   22. CRCory Richards40:02

       Right. Right

   23. SSSimon Sinek40:03

       ... 'cause they're the experts.

   24. CRCory Richards40:04

       Right.

   25. SSSimon Sinek40:04

       'Cause it was organizationally a nightmare, because every chapter could've been a book.

   26. CRCory Richards40:09

       Right.

   27. SSSimon Sinek40:09

       And Start With Why was about, I don't know, something like 68,000 words, and when I was writing Leaders Eat Last, I was just getting started and I wrote 150,000 words.

   28. CRCory Richards40:17

       Yeah.

   29. SSSimon Sinek40:17

       It just kept going and going, and it was organizationally a nightmare.

   30. CRCory Richards40:20

       Mm.
8. 44:01 – 48:36

   Giving up vs. letting go

   1. CRCory Richards44:01

      what's the difference between giving up and letting go? And do you think that you actually let go, which allowed you to continue?

   2. SSSimon Sinek44:08

      So I, I, uh... 'Cause I, you know, there's schools of thought that says you never quit, and there's schools of thought that says you have to know when to quit, you know?

   3. CRCory Richards44:15

      Right, right, right.

   4. SSSimon Sinek44:16

      And who's right?

   5. CRCory Richards44:17

      Right.

   6. SSSimon Sinek44:17

      And so, and your dichotomy of letting go versus quitting, I think, is a good one. Um, in my mind, it's this very simple test. Is the sacrifice worth it?

   7. CRCory Richards44:28

      Hmm.

   8. SSSimon Sinek44:28

      And if the answer is yes, you keep going. If the answer is no, you stop.

   9. CRCory Richards44:31

      Hmm.

   10. SSSimon Sinek44:32

       And so I'm doing some... I've done many things that I hate-

   11. CRCory Richards44:35

       [chuckles]

   12. SSSimon Sinek44:35

       ... that play to all of my weaknesses-

   13. CRCory Richards44:37

       Right

   14. SSSimon Sinek44:37

       ... that cause me stress, and sleepless nights, and broken relationships, and all of those things. But if I'm really honest with myself, and I, and I look at what I'm trying to accomplish and what I'm trying to do in the world, and if I ask myself, "Is the sacrifice worth it?" And the answer is yes-

   15. CRCory Richards44:51

       You-

   16. SSSimon Sinek44:52

       ... you just keep going. But it, it, but there are also things that I've done that become excruciating, and the sacrifice no longer feels worth it, and I'm hap- I'm happy to walk away.

   17. CRCory Richards44:59

       Yeah.

   18. SSSimon Sinek44:59

       And so to me, it's, is the sacrifice worth it?

   19. CRCory Richards45:02

       That's an interesting point.

   20. SSSimon Sinek45:03

       Does it f- And it's a very e- it's a very simple test.

   21. CRCory Richards45:05

       Yeah.

   22. SSSimon Sinek45:05

       Does it feel right? You know?

   23. CRCory Richards45:07

       But a lot of times-

   24. SSSimon Sinek45:08

       And, and it, and, and it helps you get away with, like, people are expecting it, and there's like... All of that is noise.

   25. CRCory Richards45:13

       Right.

   26. SSSimon Sinek45:13

       Is the sacrifice worth what you're trying to accomplish? Whether it's selfish or selfless is up to you.

   27. CRCory Richards45:18

       Right, right, right.

   28. SSSimon Sinek45:18

       I'm trying to become a millionaire. The sacrifice is worth it. Whatever your standard is-

   29. CRCory Richards45:21

       Right, right

   30. SSSimon Sinek45:23

       ... I don't care. But that, to me, is the reason to keep going or not keep going, which is why I like letting go-

Episode duration: 48:40