The Definition of Success with author Neil Strauss | A Bit of Optimism Podcast

Simon Sinek 0:00 What are some of the really great human skills that you've learned that actually do help in genuine connection?

Neil Strauss 0:06 To stop worrying about what other people think of you and start realize what they're worrying about what you think of them. I was really worried. I was walking around, "Look at that guy. He's short. He's got a big nose. He's like a nerd. He's a loser," whatever it is. And then you realize, no, they're all worrying about being judged by you. So instead of trying to take validation from other people, giving people validation.

Simon Sinek 0:26 Yeah. That is such a brilliant insight. And to operate from that point of view and to make somebody feel seen or heard or understood is about the best thing you can give to someone. [upbeat music] Your career is a fascinating one, um, uh, because a lot of, a lot of people in, sort of authors and stuff like that, have an idea set and they sort of build upon the idea set. You had an idea and got very famous for an idea set that you have completely or al- almost entirely walked away from, which is The Game. First of all, I wanna know the history of how The Game even came to be. Um, I remember when it came out and the buzz that it, and the stir that it caused. It was quite a sensation in its day.

Neil Strauss 1:12 Yeah, I don't even think it would come out today. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 1:14 Let's, let's, let's tell people what The Game was first of all.

Neil Strauss 1:16 Yeah. Um, so, and I'll answer what The Game was is the same as how it came about, so the, one and the same thing. Which is, and I already had, like, a career prior to The Game, meaning I was, like, writing at The New York Times as a music critic and, and I'd go to all these concerts. Uh, I'd even go on tour with rock bands for, writing for Rolling Stone. So it'd be around a lot of, uh, energy, sexuality, those kinds of things, and I was super shy, really nebbish and nerdy, uh, more so than I am now. And I wouldn't even be able to have this c- this conversation if not for The Game and look you in the eye and have this conversation and express myself. So I, I just saw everyone having all the fun. I was never the one having the fun. You know, I went on tour with Mötley Crüe and thought, "This is gonna be decadence," and maybe it was, but not for me. [laughs] Right? I'd even go get backstage passes and hand them out hoping to meet someone, and they'd just say thank you and go backstage. Doing something wrong. Why, why, why is everyone else... Like, I just, again, I was really lonely, and anyone I'd met, I'd end up, like, in the, the friend zone while they're dating some guy who's a jerk to them and I'm, like, consoling them. I even remember I did a book on Marilyn Manson at the time, and his manager remembered a story where, like, I think I had a crush on someone. I was, like, painting their room while they went out on a date. I was just the worst. So then I had a book editor. I'd done a couple books, and my book editor at HarperCollins, uh, came to me and said, "I found this undercover community of pickup artists, and they're guys without money, looks, fame, and they've figured out how this whole thing works. Do you wanna do a, get to collect their information, do a how-to book?" I said, "Listen, I'm a journalist for The New York Times. I'm, like, got a serious career. That's not something I do. So no, thanks. But thank you. Thanks for thinking of me." But secretly, I'm like, "There's a community where these guys know this stuff?" [laughs] So, and I, and not having money, looks, or fame, I thought, "This is great." [laughs] So, so, so I began this double, double life. Like, I changed my name, not to go online. I changed everything, and I had this double life that I was actually scared of being found out.

Simon Sinek 3:11 Yeah, yeah.

Neil Strauss 3:11 So I started meeting these guys, and their, their idea, their personalities, their ideas were so fascinating that I thought, "Oh, man, this, this is a book." And so I remember when I wrote the book, uh, I wanted to write it under another name, I was so scared.

Simon Sinek 3:26 Okay. So the book came out.

Neil Strauss 3:28 So the book came out.

Simon Sinek 3:29 And a lot of guys used this book to pick up women, and it was described by the women as highly manipulative.

Neil Strauss 3:40 So yeah, it's interesting versus what the book actually was versus how it was seen in the culture.

Simon Sinek 3:46 Right.

Neil Strauss 3:46 There's a difference between, let's say, the techniques the guys, the pickup artists use in the book and what the book is. Like, the book literally begins, it's the funniest thing. By the way, and this isn't a bad thing. I don't mind. Like, I think when you do create something-

Simon Sinek 3:56 Yeah

Neil Strauss 3:57 ... you throw it in the culture, and now it's out of your control.

Simon Sinek 3:58 Mm-hmm. Correct.

Neil Strauss 3:59 And I'm happy they have any story about it.

Simon Sinek 4:01 Yeah.

Neil Strauss 4:01 Like, I'm happy anyone's reading it, you know, or read it. So, so it begins with the greatest pickup artist in the world trying to kill himself over a woman. Like, he's suicidal. It begins with me taking him to, like, a mental health crisis center. So is that really a book that says this is gonna end up well for you? You know? It, like, literally begins with that guy, like, and then the end is really about, like, how it's turns you into a robot and destroys your personality. And to me, The Game, again, I was super naive at the time, I guess, but to me, I, The Game was a book about male insecurity. And I literally thought, and I'm really not, I really mean this, is when I wrote it, I thought women would have more confidence when they saw how insecure and fearful men were.

Simon Sinek 4:41 Mm-hmm. I have a female friend who-

Neil Strauss 4:43 Yeah

Simon Sinek 4:43 ... read it specifically so she could know when men were-

Neil Strauss 4:47 Yeah

Simon Sinek 4:47 ... gaming her. And she tells this great story of sitting on a plane, and some guy is, you know, saying whatever he's saying, and I don't know, I don't remember any of the principles, like say something nice, then insult them. Like, whatever it was, you know.

Neil Strauss 4:56 Right.

Simon Sinek 4:57 Some of these weird principles. And she literally turned to me and goes, "I read The Game. You can stop." [laughs]

Neil Strauss 5:02 Yeah. No, no, exactly. And, and I think there's, there's so many sides to it. It's so complicated and, and, and, and nuanced, and, uh, um, and for sure, it ends with Lord of the Flies, all these-

Simon Sinek 5:11 Sure

Neil Strauss 5:11 ... before toxic masculinity was a term, it ends with all these fake, you know, self-taught alpha males in a house all, like, trying to out alpha male each other, and it's almost like, just becomes so toxic.

Simon Sinek 5:21 It's kind of a book about bro culture, isn't it? I mean, it's like, that's what it is.

Neil Strauss 5:24 Well, here's the difference. It's a book about neurodivergence.

Simon Sinek 5:28 Yeah.

Neil Strauss 5:28 Bros don't read this book. Bros are, they're already like, you know, they don't need this. They're too cool, you know? They, they've already got it all. But s- most of the people I met, and there were, by the way, there were a few, like, real monsters in that world, for sure. But most of the people I met were neurodivergent people who were trying to figure out how to socially interact

Neil Strauss 5:45 and just needed a map.

Simon Sinek 5:46 I mean, I struggled with dating, um, most of my life, you know, and I've talked about this publicly. A lot of ADHD, you know. Um, and so I overcompensated for the H- ADHD by jacking up with coffee- Before a date.

Neil Strauss 6:02 Right.

Simon Sinek 6:02 Out of fear of not being funny, of not being charming.

Neil Strauss 6:05 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 6:06 And so I needed to get, you know, the, the boost of energy for the evening, and I would come in like a bull in a china shop.

Neil Strauss 6:12 Right.

Simon Sinek 6:12 You know? And just... I thought I was very funny and charming. Problem was I was doing all the talking, you know?

Neil Strauss 6:17 Right.

Simon Sinek 6:18 I get it, that it's-

Neil Strauss 6:18 Right

Simon Sinek 6:19 ... a story from neu- neurodivergence. I wonder what, you know, he... So here's a question.

Neil Strauss 6:22 No, but somebody, there's-

Simon Sinek 6:23 So you said you could never write that again today, you said.

Neil Strauss 6:25 Right.

Simon Sinek 6:26 A, why? And B, what about the principles that you learn in The Game could be translated for people who are struggling with neurodivergence and meeting people today?

Neil Strauss 6:35 I think you can still learn the same things, but without the agenda or the goal of an outcome. Like, let me... How do I start a conversation with someone? Like-

Simon Sinek 6:42 Right

Neil Strauss 6:42 ... how do I get comfortable with myself? How do I actually connect? Uh, um, how do I move things? How do I ask somebody who I meet online, like how to, in person, what's a good way to do that? So the difference is, is your goal to connect?

Simon Sinek 6:56 Yeah.

Neil Strauss 6:56 Or is your goal to, like, take?

Simon Sinek 6:58 Right.

Neil Strauss 6:59 And I think that's what it's about.

Simon Sinek 7:01 Yeah, I think intentional. So, so, so just share one of the tips. Like, if somebody, um, you know, how, how, how to make somebody feel heard and seen, you know? Like, what, what are some of the good tips that, you know. Because I think-

Neil Strauss 7:11 Yeah

Simon Sinek 7:12 ... people do struggle to conne- you know, it, you know, a lot of us are struggling to connect these days. There's, and there's much said about addictions to cell phones and social media, being disconnected, you know, COVID, blah, blah, blah, you know, the list goes on.

Neil Strauss 7:23 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 7:23 So what are some of the really great human skills that you've learned that actually do help in genuine connection without, without some sort of agenda?

Neil Strauss 7:31 Yeah. I mean, I think, like, if I, I, I think I'd have to ask that question with me now versus me then-

Simon Sinek 7:35 Let's do that

Neil Strauss 7:35 ... I, I guess. Uh, but I was gonna say one other thing, which is I think when the book came out, I got a lot of calls from like salespeople, marketing people. The FBI called me to come in and train their agents. So, like, so I think those applications, it's really just understanding social dynamics, and I think it's really important. So the first step, I think, is just really understanding social dynamics and how they work and what, uh, people want and what they're looking for and what their agenda is. So I think one step

Neil Strauss 8:00 is just really understanding social dynamics. But I would say, like, the biggest thing is, is to stop worrying about what other people think of you and start realizing that they're worrying about what you think of them. I'd say the most freeing thing I learned then, and I think it's even more, that I do it maybe 10X more now, is that I was really worried. I was walking around, everyone's just laughing, they're pointing, they're like, "Look at that guy. Sure, he's got a big nose. He's like a nerd, he's a loser," whatever it is. [chuckles] And then you realize, no, they're all worrying about being judged by you. So instead of trying to take validation from other people, giving people validation.

Simon Sinek 8:34 Yeah.

Neil Strauss 8:34 So I think that was the biggest-

Simon Sinek 8:36 That is a, a wonderful insight, you know, which is while y- while we're all walking around worried about what people think of us, what we don't realize is they're wor- walking around worried what people think of them. That is such a brilliant insight. And to operate from that point of view and to make somebody feel seen or heard or understood is about the best thing you can give to someone.

Neil Strauss 8:53 Yeah. And even, and, and you're thinking, "Well, I do this," but here's an, here's an example of how we don't do it. So we're LA, you know, say you're at the LA Statt and someone pulls up in a bright yellow loud Lamborghini and gets out, and you right away you wanna be like, "Oh, what a douchebag," right? Or, "What a asshole," or whatever it is. But instead, you just wanna, wanna say like, "Hey, nice car, man." Like, that person just wants... They were, were driving around in that thing 'cause they just want some val- validation. So instead of, like, judging them-

Simon Sinek 9:18 Drive a car, bright yellow-

Neil Strauss 9:19 Yeah

Simon Sinek 9:19 ... for people to see it.

Neil Strauss 9:20 So there was an exercise. Again, like, I really do think they're, they're-

Simon Sinek 9:23 To be seen.

Neil Strauss 9:24 Yeah. So there's an exercise where you, to get over social anxiety, you go out and try to make three or four people feel better about themselves that day by saying something kind about them.

Simon Sinek 9:34 The best way to solve your problems is to help other people solve the prob- the same problem. Um, you know, I've talked about the 12-step programs of Alcoholics Anonymous-

Neil Strauss 9:42 Right

Simon Sinek 9:43 ... or, or any other 12-step program.

Neil Strauss 9:44 Right.

Simon Sinek 9:45 Um, you know, uh, they know that if you master the first 11 steps but not the 12th, you're likely to succumb to the disease, but if you master the 12th step, uh, you will more likely overcome the disease. And the 12th step is to help another alcoholic.

Neil Strauss 9:57 Right.

Simon Sinek 9:57 Which is service.

Neil Strauss 9:58 Right.

Simon Sinek 9:59 So if, like, if I'm struggling with how to find love, how to find a job, how to find, you know, happiness, the best way to do it is to help somebody I care about find love, find a job, you know, find happiness.

Neil Strauss 10:08 Yeah. And, and I'd say the other, for, for sure, I think, like, being other-oriented instead of self-oriented is a nice way to put about, put it, and I think we'd probably b- be a better world that we in really, like, not being needy energy. So the other side is, like, when someone says, my pet, one of my pet peeves is when somebody says, "You know what? I did that for them, and they did nothing for me, and they didn't repay that." Like, people get so upset if they do something kind for someone, and that person then doesn't return the favor or do something kind with, for them. Like, you do kindness just as, as an end in itself.

Simon Sinek 10:38 Mm-hmm.

Neil Strauss 10:39 Right? So there are people who go out and maybe give people compliments, or they listen to people, they try to help them, but they're trying to get something for it.

Simon Sinek 10:47 Yeah.

Neil Strauss 10:47 Right? They make that connection because they want... So you really have to do it purely with no neediness. I think the most biggest turnoff is when someone's just

Neil Strauss 10:55 too needy.

Simon Sinek 10:55 Do you still see yourself the same way as you did when you wrote The Game?

Neil Strauss 10:59 No, not at all. [chuckles] No, like, like barely.

Simon Sinek 11:02 Okay.

Neil Strauss 11:02 I mean, I really think, like, the bigger transformation I had was, like, was, uh, [chuckles] no surprise, was going to sex addiction rehab. So, so that was, that was really the bigger transformation. So, so, uh, so clearly there were things that led me to The Game-

Simon Sinek 11:16 Yeah

Neil Strauss 11:17 ... that came not from The Game itself, that came from, like, my upbringing. So I think the bigger... The Game maybe, to me, the benefit of what I learned in The Game was, like, it showed me that I can change that. And then I think then it was a question, well, what, even if you recognize The Game, was what drew me into The Game? What seduced me by the, that lifestyle? Why did I become so obsessed with it? What was wrong with me? You know, even if the book, you know, even at the end I said, "Oh, this is bad," what, what caught me up in that and everything? And so I remember I was having a dinner with, like, two other writers who wrote probably, like, the most famous books on seduction, that kind of thing.

Simon Sinek 11:51 Okay.

Neil Strauss 11:51 And we found, and we were just talking, we found out we had the same kind of mother figure in our lives. And I said, "Well, well, that makes sense. It's a fear, it's a fear of the feminine and trying to figure out the tactics and the techniques as to make you safe from something you feared because you grew up with a, with a toxic narcissist."

Simon Sinek 12:12 Okay, I can't leave this behind. What did you learn at sex addiction counseling reform?

Neil Strauss 12:16 Yeah. Before then, I thought I was the s- uh, I was the normal one who wrote about all the eccentric, damaged people, the pickup artists in the game, the rock stars, you know, uh, for Rolling Stone. And then I realized, uh, I remember this moment where you do your timeline. Did you ever have to do that, your timeline? And so I wrote down all my peak positive memories and peak negative memories from zero to 17, sat there, therapist is across from me, and she goes, "Well, you know why you've never been in a healthy relationship?" I'm like, "No." And she goes, "'Cause your mom wants to be in a relationship with you." And that's when, as, as surreal, as weird as that sounds, like even at the time, and she's like, "And there's a name for that. It's called emotional incest." And I'm like, "What the..." Well, my logical brain's going, "What the fuck?" But my body, like felt this truth of it. All of a sudden, all my childhood stuff made sense. Like again, [chuckles] like just to go, to overshare, like being grounded all the time, like massaging her hand, like her coming to my room and complaining about how my dad was in bed, uh, um, not being cut off when I wanted to went and live with a girl in, like, uh, college or something. Uh, all of a sudden, everything just made sense and my body felt the truth of that. And I think it's true that in the culture, we, we understand abandonment when a parent's not there physically or emotionally, but we don't recognize enmeshment 'cause it feels... What's the word for it? It's like falsely elevating. Like abandonment is, is you feel like nothing, but when you're enmeshed, you're like, "Oh, I'm mom or dad's special person. I... They talk to me. They share this stuff with me," or, "I make them feel better when they're sad." You, it's sort of, "I take care of the family." It, it's sort of falsely empowering, and so it's hard to see and recognize. And then I recognized and I realized that, uh, there was a part of me that was like afraid to just be vulnerable and surrender 'cause I was afraid of being swallowed up again.

Simon Sinek 14:08 Thanks for sharing that.

Neil Strauss 14:09 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 14:10 Um, you're very, you're very open. Uh, where, did that come from being around people who are struggling and being forced to be open? Or have you always been... There's a difference between being open with yourself-

Neil Strauss 14:24 Right

Simon Sinek 14:24 ... which can be difficult.

Neil Strauss 14:25 Right.

Simon Sinek 14:25 And then-

Neil Strauss 14:27 Yeah, I mean, I think two reasons. One is I think maybe when I was writing for Rolling Stone, I would always encourage, as an interviewer, be on the other side [chuckles] of it. I'd just really try to get people comfortable enough to be open, and then also honor that when I shared it. I wasn't, would never do a gotcha thing. So when I was on the other side of the microphone, I re- did recognize that, uh, I need to give what I wanted. And the other side of it is like my whole goal was just to be a health- healthy, continue working to be a healthier person.

Simon Sinek 14:54 Mm.

Neil Strauss 14:54 And I think if you create a split between who you are and who you present, that's super unhealthy.

Simon Sinek 14:58 Mm.

Neil Strauss 14:59 So.

Simon Sinek 14:59 I think that's most people, right? You know, in some way, shape, or form is kind of life. Now some sort of artifice is required, you know? Like, you know, I think when you meet people in professional or personal context, we all wanna project some sort of confidence.

Neil Strauss 15:14 Right.

Simon Sinek 15:14 You know, we can't project defeatism. We'd never make friends.

Neil Strauss 15:18 Right.

Simon Sinek 15:18 I mean, there's always a bit of artifice, and I think this is where relationships, you know, you become vulnerable. You know, it, you start to break down the artifice. But to your point, which is if we never break down the artifice, then that's unhealthy.

Neil Strauss 15:29 Yeah, I think there's lines to what's healthy and unhealthy. So I think healthy is being vulnerable. Uh, and then the other side, so one side's being vulnerable, but the line i- and then the other line is healthy shame. Healthy shame is where we need to have a little bit of shame so that we don't... 'Cause everyone's in this world of get rid of shame, shame is bad. Every emotion is good, is in the right, uh, in the right degree. Healthy shame is, well, we're gonna wear clothes when we're together. [chuckles] You know? Uh, we are going to, uh, [chuckles] depending on where we're getting together, I guess. [chuckles]

Simon Sinek 16:00 Exactly. It's like show up on the first date without clothes. And how can you? I have no shame.

Neil Strauss 16:04 Right, exactly. [chuckles] We're all wounded by-

Simon Sinek 16:06 How do you know shame-

Neil Strauss 16:06 Yeah

Simon Sinek 16:06 ... is actually an aggressive-

Neil Strauss 16:08 Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Simon Sinek 16:09 [laughs]

Neil Strauss 16:10 Like we're all, all our wounds, like all our wounds came from people who were shameless. My mom was shameless with her boundaries around me.

Simon Sinek 16:17 Yeah.

Neil Strauss 16:17 Right? People were shameless with-

Simon Sinek 16:18 Let's say that again. All of our wounds come from others who were shameless.

Neil Strauss 16:23 Yes.

Simon Sinek 16:24 They had no shame, which is this, which is, can be said, you know, they, they violated boundaries.

Neil Strauss 16:29 Right.

Simon Sinek 16:30 And that, that lack of shame created woundedness. So draw the line for me, 'cause we're this, we are all the products of our upbringing.

Neil Strauss 16:37 Right.

Simon Sinek 16:38 Warts and all.

Neil Strauss 16:39 Yeah. Yeah.

Simon Sinek 16:40 Where is the line of accountability? You know, that we, we say, "Look, I am like this because, you know, m- m- I was enmeshed with my mother."

Neil Strauss 16:47 So the difference is accountability, I'll say for me, my accountability is 100% mine. In other words-

Simon Sinek 16:53 So regard- it doesn't matter how your mother treated you.

Neil Strauss 16:56 I'm responsible.

Simon Sinek 16:56 You're responsible for your behavior.

Neil Strauss 16:58 I see myself, uh, 'cause I don't wanna speak for other people. I see for myself that I'm, I'm responsible for the stories I made up about that. And so that allows me to then change. If, 'cause if I'm responsible, then I'm in control of changing it. So I see for me that those are variables that occurred. These variables help me understand myself, [clears throat] so there's no blame involved. I mean, certainly there are cases where people are straight up perpetrators. There's a place for everything in the healing process. The healing process to me is sort of a, [clears throat] a few steps you go through at certain times. And, and just like you were saying, the 12 step of AA is the service. I think the end of the healing process, if you're trying to heal something, is the forgiveness piece, where you actually... And again, m- most people never get there. I understand it's really challenging for some people. But that piece of forgiveness that you can forgive yourself, and even let go of any energy you hold around the other person, and that's real freedom. I was gonna say this, it's, there's, there's two kinds of people, I think.

Simon Sinek 17:56 [chuckles]

Neil Strauss 17:57 So there's people who like, uh, try to bring others down-

Simon Sinek 18:01 Yeah

Neil Strauss 18:01 ... right? To get to like them, or there's people who kinda like to raise themselves up, as well as all the other people that were enmeshed.

Simon Sinek 18:06 I think it's binary.

Neil Strauss 18:07 Okay, that's semi-binary, right.

Simon Sinek 18:08 Yeah, I think there's, there are no other options.

Neil Strauss 18:10 Okay.

Simon Sinek 18:10 It's true. To, to feel better about yourself, there are many things you can do. You can lift others up or you can bring others down.

Neil Strauss 18:15 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 18:15 I think that's true

Neil Strauss 18:16 And I guess my question or something I'm just seeing in the culture now, there's so much criticism of trying to bring others down.

Simon Sinek 18:21 Yes.

Neil Strauss 18:21 I can even see it, having been a journalist for a long time, that as soon as--

Neil Strauss 18:25 Like suddenly Mark Zuckerberg's a sex symbol now, [chuckles] right? Or something. I don't know. I was s- people were literally like, "Oh, he looks hot with that gold chain," or I don't know what is going on. And he wants his AI to be open source. Somehow Mark Zuckerberg, I see him going back up on the pendulum-

Simon Sinek 18:36 Yeah, yeah

Neil Strauss 18:37 ... in this moment, in this exact moment we're recording this conversation. But the culture likes to take people and kinda bring them down-

Simon Sinek 18:42 Yes

Neil Strauss 18:42 ... as soon as they get big.

Simon Sinek 18:43 Yeah.

Neil Strauss 18:43 And then when they're s- little, they wanna kinda bring them back up.

Simon Sinek 18:45 Yes.

Neil Strauss 18:45 What do you think that is in the culture that we have to, you know, if someone gets too arrogant or too big, we, they have to be sort of-

Simon Sinek 18:51 Kept in check

Neil Strauss 18:51 ... kept in check?

Simon Sinek 18:52 I think we've become a very finite society, where the idea of vision and idealism, um, is almost lost. And, you know, leaders do not speak in idealized terms anymore. They don't speak of, um, imaginary futures that will never exist. I have a dream. You know, all men are created equal, you know? Um, ask not what your country can do for you. Like, you know, shining city on a hill. Like, these are all idealized states of the world that will never exist, but we'll try and build. When there's vision and there's idealism, we all share in that vision, or a lot of people will share in that vision. And we feel community, and we feel supportive of the people. Like, lack of vision means it's every man for themselves. It's every person for themselves, you know? And we've doubled down on rugged individualism. And so if I'm insecure, I cannot bear the thought that you're, and you're happy when I'm not. And, and it's easier for me to bring you down than lift me up because that's hard work, and I don't... I feel very alone.

Neil Strauss 19:47 Yes.

Simon Sinek 19:48 And I think, I think everybody is, feels like they're forced to be on this journey by themselves. I think we've been on this road of, of, of feeling lonely and feeling like y- We've heroized CEOs.

Neil Strauss 19:59 Right.

Simon Sinek 19:59 It used to be the company. Now it's the person.

Neil Strauss 20:02 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 20:02 You know? We've made-- And th- that's the problem, which is we now live in a world of, I am the genius or I'm not the genius. I am the success or I'm not the success. And we've completely forgotten that we're social animals, and all of these things can only happen with the love and help of others.

Neil Strauss 20:17 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 20:17 I, I am not successful. And I've sa- I've even shared this with, like, my friends.

Simon Sinek 20:22 I say, "You, you, you..." I g- I'm the front man, so, uh, people give me all of the, the love. But make no mistake of it, anything I've accomplished in the world, you are due some of the credit. You were there for me when I couldn't. You were there for me when I doubted myself. You believed in me when I, when nobody else did. And I, there's no way I can take all the credit.

Neil Strauss 20:41 But I guess the other question, I think, is just, well, what is success? Like, everybody's in their own lane. If I think-- I'm just thinking about what you said, uh, as far as, like, make sure everyone gets the credit on your team. But then I also think that everybody has a wheelhouse where they're great and where they're trying to improve and trying to be better and recognizing them for, for that. I think somebody who makes that choice to just re- just not work and raise a family, or not work and just travel the world with their partner, or to sa- sacrifice family and travel on adventures to, to try to create art or create political change. Like, everything is equally valid. And it goes back to I f- I'm realizing it's fun having this talk 'cause I'm realizing how I think.

Simon Sinek 21:21 Yeah.

Neil Strauss 21:21 Uh, versus you not asking me the standard sorta questions. Um, that, uh, in the Book of Ecclesiastes in the Bible, the, the, the advice is, uh, and I'm not even a religious person, but it's about grow your own garden, plant it, grow this beautiful garden, and know it doesn't really make a difference, but just be happy doing it. And I think if, if everyone's finding the thing that they like doing enough and they're creating something more beautiful or something that doesn't hurt others, I think there's not much to it and we overthink-

Simon Sinek 21:50 Well, I, I don't know if I agree with that.

Neil Strauss 21:51 Go ahead.

Simon Sinek 21:52 I think it's an... I think that's selfish.

Neil Strauss 21:54 Go ahead.

Simon Sinek 21:54 Which is, you know, we are individuals and members of groups. We're social animals, but we're also ourselves. And yes, you're you, but you're also a father, a friend, a member of a community, you know, a partner. You know, like, you have social responsibility, and you, your behavior im- does have real and significant impact on the lives of others, a- a- as you explained about your own mother, right? That had significant impact-

Neil Strauss 22:18 Right

Simon Sinek 22:18 ... in your life. Um, and so I, I do believe that we have a personal responsibility to plant our gardens and just be satisfied, yes, as an individual. But as a member of a group, I think we do have a responsibility to leave this world in better shape than we found it. You know, if you work for a company, leave the company in better shape than you found it. Leave this country in better shape than you found it. Leave your family in better shape than you found it. Like, I think-

Neil Strauss 22:40 But how do you... Like, that

Neil Strauss 22:42 old parable of the, of the horse, the Zen parable of the horse. Do you know that one?

Simon Sinek 22:45 It's a new one.

Neil Strauss 22:46 Right? But it's like, how do we know that we're really leaving it in better shape?

Simon Sinek 22:48 What's the parable?

Neil Strauss 22:49 Uh, I mean, the parable is, and just stop me if you know it, but the farmer, this farmer, I'm gonna butcher like everything, but the farmer-

Simon Sinek 22:55 You're gonna butcher the horse?

Neil Strauss 22:56 Gonna butcher the horse like everything, yes. [chuckles] So, so, uh, [clears throat] there's a, a farmer, and his horse runs away. And everyone's like, "That's a horrible thing. That sucks. You need him for your farm." And he goes, "I don't know if it's good or bad. We'll see." Horse comes back and brings a bunch of other horse, wild horses back, back with him, and they're like, "Look at you. Now you have like five horses. You're like the richest farmer in the whole territory. Look at you. Uh, that's amazing." He's like, "I don't know if it's amazing or it's not amazing. We'll see."

Simon Sinek 23:20 Mm-hmm.

Neil Strauss 23:20 Then his son's riding a horse, and his son falls off, like, breaks his leg really badly. Can't walk. [clears throat] May never walk the same again. Like, "Oh, man, that sucks that happened to your horse. If only that horse hadn't brought all those other horses back." He's like, "I don't know if it's good or bad. We'll see."

Simon Sinek 23:33 Mm-hmm.

Neil Strauss 23:34 Then next thing, there's a drought. And, uh, the son is in drought team because he broke his leg, and it saves his life. And the story goes on and on and on.

Simon Sinek 23:41 Yeah. It's-

Neil Strauss 23:41 And we don't, we could, you could go change, create the biggest, best ig- fulfill your exact mission, and maybe because of that, someone else reacts against it and creates a bunch of evil in the world. We d- we don't know the outcome of what we're doing.

Simon Sinek 23:53 Yeah.

Neil Strauss 23:53 In the big, big picture, there's so much complicated cause and effect that [clears throat] you may save someone's life, and they may go on to kill 10 people, right? [chuckles] Like, you don't... That, that there was the right thing to do, and now 10 people are dead because, you know, we, we don't know the... I always have the say, I have the saying, "The outcome is not the outcome." Like, that's just a finite outcome, right? It goes back to everything we're saying about the contracts and everything else. We don't... But I'm say, what I'm saying, but here's what I'm saying is-

Simon Sinek 24:19 That doesn't mean to-

Neil Strauss 24:20 Here's what I'm saying

Simon Sinek 24:21 ... responsibility for contribution just because it might not work out in the short term. Because then to your own story, which is by the way, the quintessential story for infinite mindedness, which is yes, but then, but then, but then, but then, like, we don't know. Okay

Neil Strauss 24:34 What I'm saying is be responsible for what you're actually responsible for. Don't assume that my goal, like, I think when we're saying there's no effect you can control outside of yourself.

Simon Sinek 24:43 I, I-

Neil Strauss 24:44 So, so doing the right thing, doing the right thing, I think we're saying the same thing.

Simon Sinek 24:47 I think we violate agreement here.

Neil Strauss 24:48 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 24:49 Which is control

Simon Sinek 24:50 the things you can control, be responsible for the things you're responsible with, but do it with an eye of contribution.

Neil Strauss 24:55 Yeah. I mean, I think, again, I don't know. I don't wanna tell people, for some people contributing may not be the right thing in their soul.

Simon Sinek 25:02 I, I need to tell people that contribution's a thing.

Neil Strauss 25:05 There might be people who really just wanna live this life and be alone and not be bothered, and just, like, read books. I don't know. It's okay. I wanna say it's okay not to contribute. It's okay.

Simon Sinek 25:17 I need to think about that example.

Neil Strauss 25:18 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 25:19 'Cause that example is-

Neil Strauss 25:20 You don't have to-

Simon Sinek 25:21 ... except if you're Ted Kaczynski, where you literally are a person who's re- moved yourself from society, right? And by the way, he couldn't fully do it. He had to go threaten the world.

Neil Strauss 25:29 I am saying be responsible for other people. Don't do things that, that you know that intentionally cause harm.

Simon Sinek 25:35 Contribution is such a low bar.

Neil Strauss 25:37 Okay.

Simon Sinek 25:37 Right? Like ordering a cup of coffee and saying please and thank you.

Neil Strauss 25:41 Mm-hmm. Well, that's healthy shame. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 25:44 Like, like contribution, like-

Neil Strauss 25:46 So we might be talking about different things

Simon Sinek 25:47 ... the world and make sure that you make someone's life that you in, that you, uh, interacted with just slightly better.

Neil Strauss 25:54 Right. So but here's, here's where we-

Simon Sinek 25:57 It's such a low bar

Neil Strauss 25:57 ... but here's where we're differing. Let's go here 'cause there's a little hair to split, but let's split it for fun. 'Cause like you said, we're violently agreeing. So my thought is, my thought is-

Simon Sinek 26:06 Next on this episode of Splitting Hairs.

Neil Strauss 26:07 Yes.

Simon Sinek 26:08 By the way, Splitting Hairs is incredibly fun for us.

Neil Strauss 26:10 Yes.

Simon Sinek 26:10 Incredibly painful for other people to listen to.

Neil Strauss 26:12 You can cut it all out. I don't care. It's just you and I talking. I don't care about... It's just you and I having a conversation.

Simon Sinek 26:17 Okay.

Neil Strauss 26:17 You wanna contribute? I wanna have a good conversation with you. You wanna contribute to all those people? I just wanna have a great conversation with you.

Simon Sinek 26:23 Selfish bastard. [laughs]

Neil Strauss 26:24 Right. So, so, so and, and really, like, our, our whole thing on this too is, like, is, um, is, is this. What if I go out and I say please and thank you when I'm ordering my coffee? That's just the right thing to do. But I don't have the, the, uh, I'll just say extreme for fun, but of the arrogance of thinking this is making their life better because that guy walked in and said please and thank you. Maybe-

Simon Sinek 26:47 It goes back to your, your standard of intention.

Neil Strauss 26:51 No, it goes back to you don't know what's right for other people. All I know is what's right for me.

Simon Sinek 26:54 By the way, I, I know this, there's cultural differences, right? So in the United States, you know, if I'm in a restaurant, almost always I'll ask the server, "What's your name?" It's considered polite in this country. And then I can say, "Thanks, Stacy," you know, every time, you know, something comes to the table, you know? And that's considered a good thing. Not so in Norway. [laughs] I was in Norway and sat down and asked the server her name, and she said, "Why?" I was like, "Just, just, uh..."

Neil Strauss 27:20 Just trying to contribute here. That's what I do. I'm a contributor. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 27:23 What does it matter? You don't ask the server their name. It's considered incredibly uncouth, and they're all introverts anyway.

Neil Strauss 27:32 Right.

Simon Sinek 27:32 And so, like, making, closing those intimate gaps, you know, is, is com- freaks them all out, so.

Neil Strauss 27:37 Right.

Simon Sinek 27:37 You know, so it is cultural. The dif- the differences are sometimes cultural, but that doesn't mean that I shouldn't learn how to contribute con- consistent with whatever the norms and values are of Norway.

Neil Strauss 27:47 Right. So define, define contribute as you see it.

Simon Sinek 27:49 Okay. That's to take responsibil- to, I think goes, it goes, we, we talked about accountability and, and responsibility. So that I am accountable and responsible for my actions and my words, and will attempt to go through life in a way that, um, my actions and my words leave whatever situation it in slightly better than when I, than when I showed up.

Neil Strauss 28:11 Right.

Simon Sinek 28:11 And it's a very, that's a hard standard because you can't do it all the time, obviously. But I think sometimes it's much easier to do, like, good leadership, you know? Is the fundamental responsible to leave people in better shape than you found them, you know? Like, to, to lift people up, help them learn a skill, push themselves, whatever it is. You know? I mean, that's what parenting is. To leave your kid, you know, equipped, you know? N- not just self-raised. You commit to raising a child so that they're better than raising themselves. That's what good parenting is.

Neil Strauss 28:46 Right.

Simon Sinek 28:47 Right? And I think that all of these things are difficult, and all of these things are strivings, and we're imperfect at all of them every day. But, but I think as an ambition, I, I would like to, I would like to know that my friends have a better life because I'm in their lives.

Neil Strauss 29:05 So can, can we, can we do the right thing without needing to be responsible for the outcome?

Simon Sinek 29:11 Can we do the right-

Neil Strauss 29:12 Can we still have the motivation to do the right thing with others at all time without taking on responsibility for the outcome?

Simon Sinek 29:18 That's a hard question. I think, I think the answer is yes. I think the answer is yes, but it goes back to intention. Like, if, if your intentions are good, I think it's hard to fault you, you know? And the means matter more than the end.

Neil Strauss 29:36 Right. So, so here's my thought here. I think I figured out the hair. [scoffs] You guys can wake up now. [laughs] Um, all right, I figured out the hair. This is it. You and I say the same thing, but we're drawing the responsibility, the boundary of responsibility at different places.

Simon Sinek 29:50 Say more.

Neil Strauss 29:50 Okay. So my res- my boundary is right here. You brought it, I feel like it's over there.

Simon Sinek 29:55 For those who are not looking, Neil has just made a line in the air.

Neil Strauss 29:59 Between him and I, 'cause we are no longer friends after this. No, so-

Simon Sinek 30:02 The boundary is here.

Neil Strauss 30:03 So what I'm saying, what I'm saying is this.

Simon Sinek 30:05 Yeah.

Neil Strauss 30:06 All I can control are my... So in my, in my-

Simon Sinek 30:09 All I can control is myself

Neil Strauss 30:11 ... all I control is myself and my-

Simon Sinek 30:12 I don't control-

Neil Strauss 30:12 And I can't, we're draw-- So in other words-

Simon Sinek 30:13 I can't control you or anything else

Neil Strauss 30:14 ... I wanna contribute. So let's say I wanna contribute to your life, and I say, "Take that trip you wanted, you've always wanted to take," and then the plane crashes.

Simon Sinek 30:20 I don't control whether you take it or not

Neil Strauss 30:21 Or no, I'm not responsible for the plane-- No, what I'm saying is-

Simon Sinek 30:23 Oh

Neil Strauss 30:23 ... what I'm saying is with your things, I wanna contribute. So you have to, if you wanna contribute, then it means you also have to take responsibility if your effort to contribute ends in a disaster.

Simon Sinek 30:33 So I encourage you to take that trip you've always-

Neil Strauss 30:35 Which means if you're measuring-

Simon Sinek 30:36 And the plane crashes, I-

Neil Strauss 30:38 You're now responsible. If you're in the afterlife, by your version, God then gives you the scorecard and say, "Here are the, all the people you interacted with. These people's lives got better. These people's lives got worse. I, you tried to do the right thing, but unfortunately it's like 74 to 22, so I'm sending you to hell." [laughs]

Simon Sinek 30:54 My God, you're cynical.

Neil Strauss 30:55 No, I'm not cynical. But I'm saying it-- No, I'm not cynical. I'm, I'm, and I'm not even gonna say that I'm, I, I'm, uh, healthier because, because, because, um, because I'm really just saying, like, I, I, uh, if I'm saying I wanna make sure I contribute to everything around me, I can ha- It's different if my intention is to contribute. In contributing it, then it's really exhausting 'cause I'm responsible for all the outcomes, all the outcomes of the outcomes.

Simon Sinek 31:19 No, you're not responsible for the outcome. Just like it's, I mean, like-

Neil Strauss 31:23 Contributing is I'm measuring myself on what happens to you after our interaction.

Simon Sinek 31:28 Whether we're right or wrong, whether this is good or bad, um, is irrelevant. What I really like about this conversation is it's anyone who's listening is forced to think about this.

Neil Strauss 31:36 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 31:36 Like, we're forced to think about it.

Neil Strauss 31:37 Or, or they're forced to just press, like, the 2X button on their podcast player.

Simon Sinek 31:41 Or, or we're forced to just skip to another podcast. [laughs]

Neil Strauss 31:45 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 31:46 Buy supplements.

Neil Strauss 31:46 So, okay. So let me just try to summarize the points, then move on, which is this. See if this sounds right to you. [clears throat] I think we're, I think what we both share is we're, you're trying to be kind and do the right thing-

Simon Sinek 31:59 Yeah

Neil Strauss 31:59 ... and be thoughtful about the way you interact with each other.

Simon Sinek 32:01 Yeah.

Neil Strauss 32:01 My version is that's enough in and of itself. You're adding the extra piece of the thought and the goal of contribution.

Simon Sinek 32:08 Yes.

Neil Strauss 32:08 Okay. Did it. [laughs] We still friends?

Simon Sinek 32:13 We should just do our own podcast.

Neil Strauss 32:14 Yeah. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 32:15 Start with-

Neil Strauss 32:16 Hair splitting

Simon Sinek 32:16 ... philosophical hair splitting with Neil and Simon.

Neil Strauss 32:18 Going back to what I said, like, I really, I, I really listen closely, and I really wanna understand. I don't wanna... I mean, I both wanna understand for myself if there's something to learn or, or to, like, to, to think, to, to, to think about that. But I really sense a theme in what you're saying, which is, like, you really, uh, you really sort of, um, uh-

Simon Sinek 32:39 H- h- here's,

Simon Sinek 32:40 here's something somebody said to me once.

Neil Strauss 32:41 I think the... Yeah.

Simon Sinek 32:41 Right? I got this a- This is literally how they delivered it.

Neil Strauss 32:45 Right.

Simon Sinek 32:45 So I got this advice once from someone. They said, "Simon, you live in the world."

Neil Strauss 32:52 Right.

Simon Sinek 32:52 Like, you're not alone. Like, like, like, you, you live in a world. There are other people. There are interactions.

Neil Strauss 32:57 Right.

Simon Sinek 32:57 And, like, you can't be completely blind to that just because you, just because then your own definition of kind, you know, your own definition of kind has to be relative to the world you live in.

Neil Strauss 33:07 And what I would say is you live in your world, and he lives in his world, and I live in my world.

Simon Sinek 33:11 And we also live this world.

Neil Strauss 33:14 And, and-

Simon Sinek 33:15 Your world interacts with my world, whether you like it or not.

Neil Strauss 33:18 And my story interacts with your story.

Simon Sinek 33:20 Yes.

Neil Strauss 33:20 And his story-

Simon Sinek 33:21 Yeah

Neil Strauss 33:21 ... interacts with our story.

Simon Sinek 33:23 Yeah.

Neil Strauss 33:23 And we're all living out of these very different stories. You have a contribution story. I have uncertainty story, right? And this is just two stories, two stories meeting. [laughs] But the point being is this: I see the world in terms of story, right? In terms of, like, everybody's got a story. Wars are fought over stories. We need, uh... We're being surrounded by enemies. Everything's story.

Simon Sinek 33:43 Yeah.

Neil Strauss 33:43 Either people have a story they tell themselves. People have a story they sell to others.

Simon Sinek 33:47 Yeah.

Neil Strauss 33:48 People have these stories. So what I'm playfully challenging is saying, well, it's good that we buy our own story, and it's good if our story adds something good to the world. But maybe at the end of the day, recognizing we're just trying to live a story you believe in and believe it's the right thing. In the end, we really don't know. And that's my positive note for this. [laughs] But I think accepting uncertainty is part of happiness.

Simon Sinek 34:12 We, we're completely in alignment.

Neil Strauss 34:13 Yeah, yeah.

Simon Sinek 34:14 My, my, my talk of contribution doesn't eliminate anything you say.

Neil Strauss 34:17 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 34:18 You know? And I think uncertainty is a large part of it, which is why everything we're talking about, like the fact that we even have a conversation about it-

Neil Strauss 34:24 Right

Simon Sinek 34:24 ... and we really are splitting hair.

Neil Strauss 34:26 Right. We totally are.

Simon Sinek 34:26 We are in the weeds.

Neil Strauss 34:27 Y- yeah, that's right.

Simon Sinek 34:28 Right? Um, the reason is, is for one reason and one reason only, which is uncertainty.

Neil Strauss 34:34 Right.

Simon Sinek 34:34 I, I don't actually know, and neither do you.

Neil Strauss 34:36 We have no idea.

Simon Sinek 34:37 And, and I find that magical and empowering because uncertainty is the place where things can happen.

Neil Strauss 34:43 Yeah. I mean, I think also if people accepted uncertainty, we'd be living a better, safer, happier world. It's so hard for people to accept.

Simon Sinek 34:51 Yeah. Neil, thank you. Um, you always get me thinking more. This, this, even though this is the end of the conversation, this won't be the end of me, uh, thinking about the questions you raise. If you enjoyed this podcast and would like to hear more, please subscribe wherever you like to listen to podcasts. And if you'd like even more optimism, check out my website, simonsinek.com, for classes, videos, and more. Until then, take care of yourself, take care of each other.