EVERY SPOKEN WORD
65 min read · 12,580 words- 0:00 – 0:34
The Birth of Superman
- SPSpeaker
It's 1938, Hitler's encroaching and World War II's encroaching on our shores, and two Jewish 17-year-old kids are the ones who come up with the idea of Superman. And it sells a million copies, and no one can understand why. What does everyone immediately do, is they start making more heroes that have capes and that look like him and have muscles, but noth- nothing sells like Superman. And why? Because they don't have Clark Kent. They're missing that key ingredient.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
The key ingredient is not the heat vision or the powers or the things or lifting a car over your head, but it's that part of, man, I wish I could do something that's beyond ourself and do something right.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Especially by
- 0:34 – 2:02
Meet Brad Meltzer, Master Storyteller
- SPSpeaker
other people.
- SSSimon Sinek
If you're a nerd, you're going to love this episode. If you're not a nerd, you're going to love this episode. If you're a nerd, you probably already know Brad Meltzer's name, and if you're not a nerd, you probably still know who he is. He's the guy with all the mystery books in the airport. Brad Meltzer is a prolific writer. He's written Superman, Spider-Man, and Batman comics. His books are the toast of the thriller and conspiracy genres. He created a whole series of inspiring short biographies for young readers, and if that's not enough, last year he gave a commencement speech at Michigan that went viral online.
- SPSpeaker
The world needs more empathy, more humility, and certainly more decency. If you really wanna shock the world, unleash your kindness. [clapping]
- SSSimon Sinek
Basically, if it involves storytelling, he has mastered it. But in the age of AI, Brad is living proof that the human touch is what makes a true hero. This is A Bit of Optimism. [music] This episode is brought to you by True Classic. The way they became our sponsor is because I loved their T-shirts, and so we just called them up and asked them if they wanted to work together, and they said yes. So check out their clothes at trueclassic.com.
- 2:02 – 9:05
Two writers hop on a podcast
- SSSimon Sinek
So, you know, one of the things... Look, you and I have known each other a very long time. How many books... When I met you, I think you'd written a book.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Maybe two?
- SPSpeaker
I mean, I truly had written, like, a couple books. Had no kids books, which we should talk about, thanks to you.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right. And I, and I had no book or no TED Talk when we first met.
- SPSpeaker
You had-- I think you had just, you had just started in the speaking circuit. I was just starting the writing circuit.
- SSSimon Sinek
So I wrote my first book, I think, 15, 16 years ago.
- SPSpeaker
I was gonna say, it's, it, it has to be over 15.
- SSSimon Sinek
Something 15, 15 and a half, 16 years ago. And I have since written three thinky, thinky books, one book inspired by a children's book, and one workbook, and that's my oeuvre for 16 years of work. You, I have, I have contempt for you-
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
... 'cause in only a few more years, you have written five non-fiction books about conspiracies, 13 thrillers, and 60 children's books, this in addition to I don't know how many comic books. I really hate you. You make-
- SPSpeaker
No, listen. The thing is, is let-- can we just give credit where credit's due? I would not be writing my kids books-
- SSSimon Sinek
You had AI write them? Is that, is this the big revelation?
- SPSpeaker
No, they're... Le- listen, I don't think we've ever talked about it publicly. I wouldn't be doing this without you and without our friendship. And, and we are the... We were starting out, both of us, and just paint the picture, right? My brother-in-law says, "You gotta meet Brad Meltzer." You're like, "Who's that?" He says to me, "You gotta meet this guy, Simon Sinek." I'm like, "Who's that?" We get on the phone 'cause we're just like, "Whatever, we'll give it." And we get on the phone, and I remember just being like, "I can't believe I like this guy. I can't believe it." And so I call, uh, we're on the phone and I state... I'll never forget it. I said to you, "Listen, this is gonna sound crazy." You were starting out on, you wanted to write a book proposal. I wanted to figure out my why.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- SPSpeaker
And I said to you, "Why don't you come to Florida? We'll spend half the day, you'll figure out my why, and the other half I'll help you with your book proposal."
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- SPSpeaker
And I'll never forget, you said to me, "That is the craziest, stupid thing I've ever heard. I'm in." And, and you came down to Florida. I don't know if I've told you this part of the story. We work on my why.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
And you tell me... You didn't know anything about me; I didn't know anything about you. And you tell me, after I tell you all about my life, I give you everything I've got. You're like-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... "Tell me about who..." You know, everything. You do the whole why thing with me. And you look at me and you said, "You believe ordinary people change the world." And I well up with tears. And I go, "Have you read any of my books?" You said, "No." I said, "That's what every one of my books is about." And I didn't even know it until that moment. And here's the part you don't know, is I tell my mother, may she rest in peace, I said, "I met this guy, Simon, and he told me my why, that I believe ordinary people change the world." My mom says, "That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard." She goes, "I could've told you that. You've been like that since you were little." And I go, "I know, Mom, but you didn't tell me that. Simon told me that." And she goes, "He just held up a mirror to you." And I'm like, "I know, but sometimes you need the brilliant person to hold up the mirror." And I love the fact that she's like, "That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. I could've told you that. You've been like that your whole life." So that was my mom's review of you, but of course she realized you were-
- SSSimon Sinek
Well, that's the greatest, that is the greatest affirmation-
- SPSpeaker
You were completely right
- SSSimon Sinek
... of my work I could possibly hear, some mother thinking, you know, that everything I told you was completely obvious. I mean, that is about as good as it gets. [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
I said it can't be more right than her saying, "You've been like that forever," and I still didn't know. My mother knew, and I didn't know, and you figured it out. You said to me, you ha- when you gave it to me, you said, "Here's the thing. Now you have to live it."
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
And, and you said, "You have to say it out loud." And the first time I ever said it out loud is when I won the Eisner Award.I said it out loud to a group of people at San Diego Comic-Con, and I went up in front of this massive group of people, of the people I respect the most, the Oscars of comic books, and I said, "I believe ordinary people change the world." I didn't know whether we were supposed to say it or not. Do we tell people that or not? And then I finally-- You'll see in, like, every speech I give and everything, I remember calling you once and being like, "Is it okay to tell people?" You're like, "Yeah, tell people." I'm like, "Oh, I didn't know if I was supposed to." Um, and obviously, even when I did-
- SSSimon Sinek
Well-
- SPSpeaker
... my commencement address, I was like, "I'm, I'm saying your name. I don't care. I gotta say it to everybody."
- 9:05 – 12:49
Ordinary kindness can change a life
- SPSpeaker
hole.
- SSSimon Sinek
How did you... Were you a writer as a kid?
- SPSpeaker
[lip smacks] I, I'm only a writer because of, uh, my ninth grade English teacher. I really believe that. My ninth grade English teacher was this woman named Sheila Spicer, and-
- SSSimon Sinek
Good name
- SPSpeaker
... she... You know, my family, my family struggled. There were no books in my house. My parents didn't read anything. My mom read, like, you know, the Star and the Inquirer. My dad read the sports pages. [lip smacks] No books. And this English teacher in ninth grade, when we moved to Florida, uh, my dad lost his job, and she changed my life with three words. She said, "You can write." And I was like, "Well, everyone can write." She said, "No, no, you know what you're doing." And so she tried to put me in the honors class. I had some sort of conflict. She said, "Here's what we're gonna do. You're gonna sit in the corner for the entire year, ignore everything I do on the blackboard, ignore every homework assignment I give. You're gonna do the honors work instead, and you're gonna thank me later." And a decade later, Simon, I went back to her classroom when my first book was published. I knocked on the door. She said, "Can I help you?" I said, "My name is Brad Meltzer. I wrote this book, and it's for you." And she starts crying. And I said, "Why are you crying?" And she said, "You know, I was gonna retire this year because I didn't think I was having an impact anymore."
- SSSimon Sinek
Wow.
- SPSpeaker
And I said, "Are you kidding me?" I said, "You have 30 students. We have one teacher." And Miss Sheila Spicer is the first person who ever told me I can write, and she changed my life in that action.
- SSSimon Sinek
But by the way, this, this to me fundamentally is what service is, what purpose is. True purpose is the opportunity to serve those who serve others, right? And just like Sheila Spicer, you will carry their name around with you for the rest of your life. Now, if I ask you to tell me all the names of the teachers that you had that day on your schedule, you can't remember any of them. You can maybe one or two of them. The idea that someone can have an impact in someone else's life, that they carry your name around with them for the rest of their lives, this is what it means. And you are now who you are today, career definitely, but even your personality in some way, shape, or form, in part because of this one human being who didn't even know that she had an impact.
- SPSpeaker
Miss Spicer is one. I mean, but it's not just teachers. You know, for me, and this is, you know, this gets back to my why, right? Is there's a woman when my, when my dad lost his job, we moved to Florida. [lip smacks] We, we, we lost everything, and we had to move in with my grandparents in Florida because we, we had no place to live. We didn't e- we were worried about safety. And it's my mom, my dad, my sister, and myself are living with my two grandparents, six of us in a one-bedroom apartment.
- SSSimon Sinek
Wow.
- SPSpeaker
And everyone in Florida in, in this condominium was complaining about us, saying, "You can't have six people in a one-bedroom. They're sleeping on the floor. You can't do that." They were trying to evict us every day. And it was terrifying. I remember being-- I was 13 years old. It wasn't like I was a little kid. I knew everything that was going on.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
And this one neighbor-... comes to my grandmother and says, "Listen, I see what they're doing to your family. I'm gonna move out of my apartment. You take my apartment for you so your family could have some space and won't be evicted."
- SSSimon Sinek
Wow.
- SPSpeaker
The nicest thing anyone to this day has ever done for my family, and arguably for me. And I remember as a kid, her name was Mircey, but when I was young, I always heard her name as Mercy. And make no mistake that mercy and empathy is what she showed us.
- SSSimon Sinek
Wow.
- SPSpeaker
And I'll never forget her name, ever. I carry Mircey around with me forever.
- SSSimon Sinek
Wow. I mean, your life in, is a reflection of your characters, right? That you said it, like you didn't even realize it, but you were writing books about ordinary people who changed the world, and these are ordinary people, and yet these decisions that they make have profound impact on the world. I mean, I love the fact this is, you know, art imitating life and life imitating art, um, how integrated and how in- inseparable your life is and h- and your characters.
- SPSpeaker
No, yeah, I mean, look, it's because it's my existence. It's all the proof I have, right?
- SSSimon Sinek
It's all you know.
- 12:49 – 15:55
Negative people become inspiration
- SPSpeaker
I, I've never even told you this story. So I used to, I used to work at this, um, I used to scoop ice cream at the Häagen-Dazs in, in the Aventura Mall in high school for four years. And I remember this woman, she used to, uh, she used to m- come over one day, she'd snap her fingers at me. And I said, "Ma'am, you know what? I'll be with you in a moment." She's like, "Help me now." And I'm like, "Ma'am, I'll, I'll be right with you." She says, "No, you gotta help me now." And I said, "You know what, ma'am? You're being rude. I'm not gonna help you." And she starts screaming at me. She goes, "You're gonna be working at this miserable Häagen-Dazs and for the rest of your miserable life." And I said, "Ma'am, if I am working here for the rest of my miserable life, you're still never getting any ice cream."
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
And I used to tell that story laughing and saying that never bothered me, but it absolutely bothered me.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
And the reason it bothered me was this, is I thought it would make my life feel like my dad's life, a financial struggle.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
But here's the story you've never heard, is I used to work at that Häagen-Dazs with a guy named Nick Wickett, and Nick Wickett was my-- He and I both had nothing. Like, if I had nothing, he had less than nothing. I had two parents, he had a, a single mom.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- SPSpeaker
And Nick struggled even more than we struggled, and we were struggling. And I remember I used to wear a g- it was the, it was the late '80s, so everyone wore gold chains with a little charm on it in Miami. My charm was a Superman charm, and Nick's charm wa- I had a gold Superman charm that I'd wear, and his was a, um, a, a tail of a killer whale because he wanted to train the whales at SeaWorld. That was his dream for his whole life. And I lose track of Nick, and 'cause it was pre-internet, we didn't know where he was. My first book comes out. It's my time for my, my high school reunion, so I have everyone's email. And so I send invitations to everyone from my high school, and the, the first events, you know, yeah, where I lived, my family's there, but I'm in an event in Vero Beach, Florida. There's nobody there. It's like my wife and my family and nobody else. There's can't be 10 people there. And in walks Nick Wickett with a pint of Häagen-Dazs ice cream. And I'm like, "Oh my gosh, what are you doing now?" He goes, "Guess." I go, "I have no idea." I, I said, "Where do you live?" He says, "Orlando." And I go, "Oh my God. You train the dolphins at SeaWorld. That was your dream. You always wanted to train the dolphins at SeaWorld." So he says, "You gotta come see me do my job." I'm like, "Okay, I g- I'm coming." So I take my kids to SeaWorld. Nick gives us little seats, like roped off, so we're all excited. The show starts, and the show begins with a dolphin that leaps out of the air and goes, like, 25 feet into the air, and Nick is on the nose of the dolphin as it flies in the air. And I watch him, and I start bawling crying because I realize this kid who came from nothing, who that woman screamed at us and would say, "You, we're never gonna be anything. We're never gonna have anything," he's living his dream. And I remember afterwards he saw me. He says, "Why are you crying? The only person who cried as much as you is my mother." And I was like, "Nick, you know, y- you did it. You actually did it." And that was, again, it was, it's the thing that I always write about. It's that ordinary person who just can reach beyond that and, and prove that there's no such thing as an ordinary person.
- 15:55 – 17:36
"Ordinary" vs. extraordinary people
- SSSimon Sinek
W- what is it that all of these people in your life have in common? Yes, they're ordinary people. Yes, they push through adversity. But what is it about them that they all have in common that you can only see now?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. I, I do think, and this is, and I'll include the unordinary people, right? The Rosa Parks', the, the Jane Goodall. I mean, I've written books about Jane Goodall, Amelia Earhart, Abraham Lincoln, Dr. King. I mean, so I've seen the most amazing people on the whole planet, and I've seen the people that are like myself, just ordinary people trying to do their best. And they have one thing all in common, the ones who are successful, and it's simply this: They're doing what they love. They're doing what they can't do e- anything else but do that. And it may be, you know, Jane Goodall does it with chimpanzees. Jim Henson does it with puppets. Amelia Earhart does it with planes. But they're doing that thing that they, they can't not do. And for me, it's writing. For me, it's telling stories. For you, it's inspiration. I don't care what you did, where you were, you cannot help but inspire. That's always been your superpower. And Nick Wickett couldn't help but go and be on that nose of that dolphin at SeaWorld. And, you know, and my teacher had to find that person who can write 'cause that's her passion, is saying, "Where's that kid? I'm gonna find him. I'm gonna help him." It's not just passion. It's putting in the time and putting in the work. You know, it, you c- these things aren't magic. They don't just happen by themselves. They take time and intentionality, and they take you, right? You taught me that. That was your word. Full commitment to the bit or it all falls apart.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
That was your line. And that's what they all have in common, is that passion of, of what they love and then that full commitment to it. That is a potent
- 17:36 – 22:24
Don't just follow your bliss
- SPSpeaker
combination.
- SSSimon Sinek
Let's dial it down. Kids graduating high school, kids graduating college, what do I do next? And they invariably get some completely useless advice from a guidance counselor, parent, or friend, which is, "Do the thing you love. Follow your bliss. Find your passion."Right? It's, it's true and useless
- SPSpeaker
It, uh, I, I actually think it's terrible. Like, it, it really borders on terrible advice 'cause it makes you think that it's, it's a simple thing. It's not simple
- SSSimon Sinek
So, so, so how, what-- So the, the thing that you're advocating, how is that different from that unhelpful advice? Like, so y- I asked you, like, what all the- all these ordinary people have in common, and you, and, you know, they, they did the thing they love, they pursued the dream, they pursued the passion. But how, how does somebody who's trying to figure out what that is, regardless of where they are in their life, like, h-how did y- you, like, you didn't know. Somebody else saw it in you.
- SPSpeaker
There was an alchemy moment, and the alchemy moment, right, I, I got on my first book 24 rejection letters. There were only 20 publishers. I got 24 rejection letters, which means some people writing me twice to make sure I got the point.
- SSSimon Sinek
[chuckles]
- SPSpeaker
And I said, "If they don't like that book, I'm gonna write another. And if they don't like that book, I'm gonna write another." And what happened at the time is I said to my then girlfriend at the time, "I'm, I'm, I'm gonna be a novelist. I'm gonna write this book. I'm gonna write another." And she did the best thing of all. She didn't laugh. She said, "Go write the book." And there's this, there's this great thing, it's called a reflective best self-portrait. It's by a professor named Jane Dutton at the University of Michigan studies it. And what she says is, when you have someone who tells you m- that they believe in you-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... and you trust them, you actually start to become that person that they believe in. And that's what Miss Spicer was to me. That's what Jane Goodall's mother was to her. It's not just, "Oh, love your thing and go do it."
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
That's, that's nonsense. It's that full commitment, nonstop, and, um, this is the part we leave out, is all the failure.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
You remember the first hero story you ever told me? Very first one. I carried around with me.
- SSSimon Sinek
No.
- SPSpeaker
The first hero story you ever told me was the Wright brothers.
- SSSimon Sinek
Oh, yeah, yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Which, which I had to check it to make sure it was true, and this, uh, it-- this is the story, right? You know it.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Every time the Wright brothers would go out to fly their plane, they'd bring extra materials for multiple crashes.
- SSSimon Sinek
Correct.
- SPSpeaker
Which means every time they went out, they knew they would fail.
- SSSimon Sinek
Correct.
- SPSpeaker
And they would crash and rebuild, and crash and rebuild-
- SSSimon Sinek
Correct
- SPSpeaker
... and that's why they took off. And Simon-
- SSSimon Sinek
That's right
- SPSpeaker
... I remember you telling me that story 20 years ago almost. I love that story.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
I want my sons to hear that story. I want my daughter to hear that story. I want everyone to know if you dream big, that's the cheesy part, you work hard, cheesy part, but you have that side order of stubbornness, you can do anything in this world. The stories I tell you, you've heard all the good parts, right? I told you Nick got on the dolphin.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- 22:24 – 26:42
A.I. storytelling vs. human storytelling
- SPSpeaker
the best thing I've ever heard about AI comes from my college-aged daughter, who's brilliant, and she said to me, "Dad," 'cause I wa- I-- She said, "Uh, let's try and write a book with AI. Let's see if it can do it for you." So I'm up for it. I wanna learn from someone younger than me. So we put, I put it all in, and it was a book that I'd already written, so I could actually test it. So I, I knew what the book was. I wanted to see-
- SSSimon Sinek
Right
- SPSpeaker
... could it reproduce one of my kids' books. And the new one that's coming is "I Am Simone Biles." I know her story. I'm like, "Okay, computer, have at it." And it starts writing, and it tells me all the things. I give it actually my research-
- SSSimon Sinek
Sure
- SPSpeaker
... that I've done. I said, "I'm gonna give you everything I have, so you have the same exact thing."
- SSSimon Sinek
And write it in the style of Brad Meltzer.
- SPSpeaker
Write it in my style, and my-- Listen, AI's been fed all my books.
- SSSimon Sinek
Sure, sure.
- SPSpeaker
It knows exactly how to do it. It knew how to outline everything. When it a- did the first outline, in one second it did the outline of the book perfectly. I said, "Great. Keep going. I wanna see what you can do." And I gave it, you know, all the things that I found important, what I bolded. I said, "These are the important things." So it-
- SSSimon Sinek
Sure
- SPSpeaker
... it even knew what I thought was gonna be vital. And there's this one moment where Simone Biles, when she's a young girl, she goes to live with her grandparents. Her mom, you know, she's in foster care for a while. Her mom can't take care of her. She goes to live with her grandparents. And there's this human moment where you, where she realizes, "This is my new mom and dad. My grandparents have taken me in. They've taken my sister in. They're gonna be our, our new parents now." And I said to the, to the, to ChatGPT, I'm like, "I want you to, you know, focus on that moment and make me really feel." And the computer says, "Yes, I'll make you feel it." And so I, I said-- They said she moves in with the grandparents. I said, "No, no. Make me really feel it." And so then the computer says the grandfather... musses her hair and says, "Now you live with us now." I'm like, "Yeah, but that never happened." Says, "You're right. You're right. All of Brad Meltzer's books always show you the real story. They don't just tell it to you, it shows you with real emotion."
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
I said, "Great. Do that." And I said, and it keeps going, "We love you, Simone. That happened." I'm like, "Yeah, but that's just a thing. The- where's the... Get deeper. Go deeper."
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- SPSpeaker
And what I wrote in my book is this moment where the grandmother is just braiding Simone's hair.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
And that feeling of her touching her hair-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... and having someone take care of you. You're sitting in her lap. There's nothing being said with the grandmother, but she knows, here's a person who's taking care of me. It's one of the most important pers- parts of the whole book. It's not the gymnastics or the gold.
- SSSimon Sinek
This, this, by the way-
- SPSpeaker
And the computer could not get there.
- SSSimon Sinek
Of course not. So th-
- SPSpeaker
And my daughter finally said to me, "You know why, Dad? Because AI doesn't have taste." And I was like, "That's it. It cannot figure it out."
- SSSimon Sinek
AI doesn't have taste and AI doesn't have feelings.
- SPSpeaker
And it has no soul, right? That, that's it. And it's the way... I, I kept saying go to the part where it's brushing the hair and, and all it kept saying is, "It brushes hair." I'm like, "Go longer." It says, "It keeps brushing it." It could not get to the, to that feeling. Why? 'Cause it never felt anyone do that. It can't feel love. I will not finish one of my kids' books when I get to the end. I mean, the number one thing people tell me about my kids' books when I get p- letters from parents is, "Your book made me cry." And why? H- my s- the last pages of the book are always the inspirational big moment. I will not write it and say it's done until either, and I sit with my wife, she comes into my office and I read-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... her what I'm writing, and if she sits there, she's like, "No, it's not it." And I say another one, "No, it's not it. Here's what it is. No, it's not it," until she or I are crying.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yes.
- SPSpeaker
Truly tears in our eyes have to well up and then the book is done.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yes.
- 26:42 – 30:21
True Classic: an ad with authenticity
- SSSimon Sinek
Not you should audition for American Idol, honey, because you're wonderful and I love you, but, like, can you sing that song again? Because every time you do, it gives me goosebumps.
- SPSpeaker
So people always come to me and say, "Tell me about how I can write a book." Or, "I wrote," or, "I wrote a book, and what should I do with it now?" And I said, "Give it to five friends."
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
And they say, "Why?" And I said, "Just give it to five friends who really love you, who will be honest with you." I said, "They're gonna all give you five different opinions, and they're all gonna tell you different things, and none of them will be right." I said, "But you're gonna get to the point, if they say, 'Oh yeah, I liked your book,' okay, your book's not that great."
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
You gotta get to the point where they go, "I didn't think it was gonna be as good as it was."
- SSSimon Sinek
Yep.
- SPSpeaker
That's the p- test you have to pass.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
And if you pass that test where they're like a little bit in shock of what you did 'cause they wanna read more. I was gonna try to go to bed, but I couldn't. It's, it's what you're saying, right? I wanna hear that song again. Play it for me again.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
And when you get that reaction from your friends, now you got a book.
- SSSimon Sinek
Now you got a book or an idea or a business or whatever it is.
- SPSpeaker
Or a business or whatever it might be, right.
- SSSimon Sinek
And by the way, and, and if you get that, and this goes right back to all these people who had someone in their life, all these quote-unquote ordinary people who became extraordinary, they all had at least one person in their life, obvious- you know, very often a mother, but at least one person in their life who said, "You have to do this. This is, this is actually worth doing. This is good."
- SPSpeaker
For most people it's that, or it's someone saying, "You can't do it." You can get just as much power. That woman who said to me from Haagen-Dazs that said, "You're gonna be here for the rest of your miserable life," that woman, I used to, I used to re- really be upset with her and say, "You know, I'm gonna, you know, I, uh, I'm so upset by that." I would, I kind of internalized it, and I, I would say, "I, I don't th- care about her," but I totally cared about her, but I used it as rocket fuel.
- SSSimon Sinek
The problem is, is th- the, here's the challenge I have with, which is I don't dispute that it's, that it's rocket fuel, right? But at what point, what, what level of success do you have to achieve to be, um, validated, you know? A- a- and, like, how, how far do you have to go to be like, "Ha, I showed you," but then what? Then, then-
- SPSpeaker
Right
- SSSimon Sinek
... then what's the next motivation after-
- SPSpeaker
And by the way, and then you're n- and then you're in the worst situation, which is you're never happy. Like, you should be going-
- SSSimon Sinek
And then you have this... That's why I think you need the person who says you're onto something-
- SPSpeaker
No, that's right
- SSSimon Sinek
... because that's infinite.
- SPSpeaker
That's right.
- SSSimon Sinek
That's infinite.
- SPSpeaker
That, that never go- a- and listen, the first person who does that is you, right?
- SSSimon Sinek
Instead of a traditional host-read ad, I invited Ryan Bartlett, the founder of our sponsor, True Classic, to sit down for a conversation. We call this an ad with authenticity. We went out for lunch, that's how I met you, and in one lunch you became one of my favorite entrepreneurs.
- SPSpeaker
Wow.
- SSSimon Sinek
Tell me a specific story from a time in your career that you absolutely loved being a part of whatever it is you were doing, that if everything in your career went like this one thing, you'd be the happiest person alive.
- SPSpeaker
One of the most impactful decisions we made was the $40 million bet, which was absolutely insane looking back.
- 30:21 – 34:49
Superman vs. Batman
- SSSimon Sinek
It did not work.
- SPSpeaker
No.
- SSSimon Sinek
And yet you are telling me this story-
- SPSpeaker
Because I love that we all were together in it, and we all made the decision, and we all felt good about it. We all believed in each other so much.
- SSSimon Sinek
Who's your favorite superhero?
- SPSpeaker
Uh, it depends what day. It's either Superman or Batman. I mean, l- and you know, listen, I love, I love Batman because every day Batman's one goal is to stop crime, right?
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
And every day he knows he's gonna fail. He will never stop crime, but he's gonna try, and he's gonna fail tomorrow, and he's gonna try again the day after that, and he's gonna fail, and he's gonna keep going. So I... That's, that's that, that do not stop. It's the Wright brothers part, right?
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- SPSpeaker
But Superman, to me the most important part of the story is not Superman. The most important part of the story is Clark Kent, because we're all Clark Kent, and we all know what it's like to be boring and ordinary and wish we do something incredibly beyond ourselves. And that's why, you know, after Superman came out, and Superman is this, you know, it's, it's 1938, Hitler's encroaching and, and, and World War II's encroaching on our shores, and two Jewish 17-year-old kids are the ones who come up with the idea of Superman. They're not popular, they're not good-looking, but they give us something to believe in. And that's why he's looks like an American flag flying around. And it sells a million copies, and no one can understand why. So what, what does everyone immediately do is they start making more heroes that have capes and that look like him and have muscles, and they start selling. But not- nothing sells like Superman. And why? Because they don't have Clark Kent. They're missing that key ingredient.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
The key ingredient is not the heat vision or the powers or the things or lifting a car over your head, but it's that part of, "Man, I wish I could do something that's beyond ourselves." And the key to that is, of course, his parents, right? It's Mom and Pa Kent, these two ordinary people-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... who teach him what makes Superman is not this-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... but this.
- SSSimon Sinek
It's not his muscle-
- SPSpeaker
And that-
- SSSimon Sinek
... it's his heart, yeah.
- SPSpeaker
That's it, baby.
- SSSimon Sinek
And we don't see ourselves in Superman. We see ourselves in Clark Kent.
- SPSpeaker
I never, I'll never be Superman. I'll never lift a car over my head. But that doesn't mean I can't fight for good and do something right, especially by other people. Like, especially as someone who has had so much right done for me.
- SSSimon Sinek
It's so funny that you love Superman because of the ordinary guy part of his personality, and you love Batman. It's just, it's just a guy.
- SPSpeaker
He's just a stubborn guy who won't give up.
- SSSimon Sinek
He's a guy who inherited a bunch of money.
- SPSpeaker
That's what I love. And I don't care what... Some people love Batman 'cause they wanna be the millionaire with the butler and the toys. Keep all that stuff. I wanna be Batman because I know what it's like, that I, you, I will not be stopped.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
You can, uh, y- you will not stop me. I, I... Hand me 24 rejection letters. Hand me 28 rejection- hand me 50 rejection letters. I will keep going. That's the part that will forever be the wish fulfillment to me, is that no matter how many barriers you put in front of me, I'll be there tomorrow, and then I'll be there tomorrow. I don't care how much you beat me up, I'll be there tomorrow again.
- SSSimon Sinek
The thing that you and I have in common, and it's partially just because we're nerds, but it's also, it's, it's something, I think it's something bigger than that, which is you and I have decorated our homes, our desks, our offices since we were little kids with the stuff that inspires us, the little Superman. Uh, the, I, I've had a little Superman on a, uh, it, I, I-
- SPSpeaker
You wanna see the one that's on my desk right here? I got two of them right here.
- 34:49 – 41:19
Supervillains and villain motivation
- SPSpeaker
in the whole world are never a plot that you like or a character you like or it... Those, they don't tell you anything about that. The best stories tell you something about yourself.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah, of course.
- SPSpeaker
You see in that person something that says, "I know what that's like."
- SSSimon Sinek
Uh, who's your super favorite villain?
- SPSpeaker
That's a good one. Um, it's funny. It's never Galactus or, like, these, you know, big ones. I mean, I love Darth Vader just because he's the, the human side of him, right? That's an epic, you know, it's a, it's an opera. Um, I'm trying to think who I've written 'cause that'll reveal quickly who I like. I mean, I, I, I mean, I do like Lex Luthor on some level, but it's funny. I don't even care... With, as you say it, I'm like, beside Darth Vader, who takes a hero turn, I don't ever look at the villains and say, "I love that person." That's much harder for me, uh, oddly. It's funny. Now, I've never thought that about myself. You figured that out. I, I don't care. It's, the villains never ma- I never, I don't have that side of me that's like, "Oh, I wish I could, I can associate with that person." No one's motivations make sense to me like that.
- SSSimon Sinek
'Cause the backstory of the villain, I hate to say this, but the backstory of the villain is a little bit like you in the ice cream store with the woman who says you can't. Like, they've, they've all got a chip on their shoulder.
- SPSpeaker
You know, Lex Luthor's original motivation was that Superman made him lose his hair. So, I mean, which was a silly Silver Age thing, but he was like, "Superman took my hair, and I will get my revenge," and now we figured it out. But what I think is more interesting about the villains in comics, and this is what I study more... is that the best villains have to be the opposite foil to the hero. It took, you know, the Joker has always been Batman's greatest villain, but it took Chris Nolan and his brother, right, and, and Goyer to figure out that Batman is order and the Joker is chaos.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
That's a brilliant take. That they are just... And, and I'm, you know, the cliches say opposite ends of the same coin, but they're perfect for that reason. And, and eventually the comic book community was like, "That's right." And that's why Captain America is, you know, that American ideal and the Red Skull is the Nazi. That's the most obvious, easy one. But the best ones that go against each other are exact opposites, and they finally figured out for Lex Luthor and Superman, there are people who are like, "Yeah, having him lose his hair is stupid." The reason why Lex Luthor is much more interesting is if Superman, you know, is this ideal and has all this stuff and, and Lex Luthor is that pettiness of us-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... that says, "Why do you need something like that? You know, I'm the best there is. You don't need him."
- SSSimon Sinek
But that's, that's why I don't like the Häagen-Dazs story.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Because it's, it's, it's a-
- SPSpeaker
'Cause you don't, you don't like the revenge part of it. There's nothing, there's nothing pure in it.
- SSSimon Sinek
It's a revenge thing, and you spend your whole life-
- SPSpeaker
Oh, I agree. I, I agree with you. I-- That woman drove me when I was a kid, but as I was older, I was like, "That doesn't matter," uh, 'cause it can't matter. That, then that's just a, an anchor I'm holding onto.
- SSSimon Sinek
I had that person in my life. Uh, it was my first job, and the boss that I had would, um... We were a young team, and my boss would have these, I don't-- And, like, monthly meetings or I don't remember. Maybe they were weekly. I don't remember. This is my first job, my first boss, right? And her exact words in my career development meeting, I kid you not, were, "You have no talent."
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And I said, "Nothing?" And she said, "Nothing." And I said, "I can write pretty well." She goes, "You don't write well for business." And I thought it was absolutely hilarious.
- SPSpeaker
Right, because you had no respect for that person.
- SSSimon Sinek
Because it was so ridiculous. Like, if she had said, "You only have one talent," that would've been devastating.
- SPSpeaker
Right, right. No, but it was so absurd and was so personal-
- SSSimon Sinek
It was so absurd to say you have no talent in the world
- SPSpeaker
... and you couldn't carry, you don't need to carry that around. Right
- SSSimon Sinek
Like h- like-
- SPSpeaker
But that's also why it didn't beat you up, right?
- SSSimon Sinek
It didn't beat me up-
- SPSpeaker
'Cause you knew honestly-
- SSSimon Sinek
... because it was so absurdist.
- 41:19 – 44:12
Failure and struggle make you who you are
- SSSimon Sinek
it doesn't matter. Like, why won't, why won't you push yourself?" And she said, "'Cause I don't like to fail, and you don't either," she said to me. "I don't like to fail, and you don't either," she said to me. And I literally said, "You're wrong." I said, "I am-- If you look at my whole life, my whole life, I think of myself as a failure." I said, "Because I, I have achieved-"
- SPSpeaker
I love this
- SSSimon Sinek
..."one or two things in my life have gone as I had hoped, but almost everything has fallen short of my desires, dreams, or ambitions. Almost all of it," right? "And so I'm very comfortable in failure because my dreams are bigger than my ability."
- SPSpeaker
I, I, you told me when we met that first time all those years ago, you know, you told me my why and then you gave me my hows. You know, one I remember that I took with me, I'll never forget, is you said to me, "Brad, the struggle matters for you."
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
I was like, "What does that mean?" You said, "The struggle matters." It says if you do something, you don't wanna do it again-What you like is the struggle. You like when it's really hard, when you have to really push through it. You need that struggle to go.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
So when I got my 23rd and 24th rejection letter, here's a story I never tell, is they were supposed to be-- I got 24 rejection letters, but the 23rd and 24th one I thought were gonna be acceptance letters. And my agent said to me, "They're gonna sell." I had interviews with the final two people. They said they liked the book, and they're gonna buy the book, and they're gonna call me at four o'clock, so be by your phone, and I'm gonna tell you how much the book sold for. And I was in law school debt and college debt. I had debt accruing all over. And she's like, "I'm gonna tell you how we're gonna get out of debt 'cause we're gonna have a bidding war on your first book." Great. And I sit by the phone, because back in the day you sit by a phone, it was pre-cell phones, and I picked up the phone all excited to find out how I was gonna get out of debt. And I'll never forget my agent... I picked up the phone, she said, "Sorry, kiddo." And I was-- my s- heart just sank down. And here's the thing. I don't know if... I've never told you this, Simon, is every day that I sit down to write, I replay that moment. I literally re- that's my ritual, is I replay the worst moment of my career. I picture the phone I was holding. It was a see-through one where you could see the wires inside-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah. Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... because it was high tech back then. I picture the, the desk and the little swivel lamp on my left, the bed that had just a box spring of bed, not even a headboard, nothing, 'cause we were, had no money. I look over this, it was a, a, a concrete, uh, over the balcony of, of a concrete empty parking lot.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
I see a fire station with three doors. I count the doors one, two, three, and then I say those words.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
"Sorry, kiddo." Because I never ever wanna think I made it.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
I never ever wanna think that I'm, I never wanna be not thankful for this life I have.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
I never ever wanna think I figured it all out, 'cause the moment I do that, I'm done and my hunger is gone. And for 27 years now, every day
- 44:12 – 48:49
After 78 books, which is Brad's best?
- SPSpeaker
I sit down to write, "Sorry, kiddo. Sorry, kiddo. Sorry, kiddo." And to me, when you use those moments-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... like that failure, that struggle, man, I think it's, it, y- we leave that out.
- SSSimon Sinek
You have to answer this question.
- SPSpeaker
Yes.
- SSSimon Sinek
You've written, let me do some quick maths, 78 books. That's ridiculous.
- SPSpeaker
No.
- SSSimon Sinek
That's, that is ridiculous.
- SPSpeaker
It is ridiculous.
- SSSimon Sinek
That number is a stupid number. Like, if you had written 13, I'd be like, "Whoa." 78 books is absolutely... I can't. Anyway, let me get to my question. 78 books. You've written 78 books. You have to answer this question. Which is the best? Which is your favorite? Actually, that's two different questions. Which is the best, and which is your favorite?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. No, um, that's fair. The best one, I still think my first book is my best one because I didn't know anyone would see it.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
That's why it's the best. The reason why you love people's first novel that you ever read from and then you're like, "Oh, I like the first one," is 'cause when you're writing for the first time-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... it's like when you, it, when you did your first, you know, your, your first talk, you didn't know millions of people were gonna see it, so you just like put it out there. You hoped it, but you didn't know. But once it's out there-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... and now you've received the criticism and the raves and the, and the love, but once you know someone's watching, there's some little molecular thing that changes.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
At that molecular, something changes in your, in your little DNA. Something changes in that, in that quilt in your brain, and, and it's just a, it's a little bit of protection.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
A little bit of safety, a little bit of, "You're not getting all of me. I put out all of me last time and I took a beating for it." And, and I think that that protection will always forever ruin art, right?
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
It will forever take it away and make it less when you protect yourself. But to answer your question, I then, when I turned 50 years old, I had my, my midlife crisis was I, I think in life we can always keep doing what we do, right? You do what you do. I do what I do. We can continue doing it, and hopefully people will pay you to do it and show up, and that's great, and that's fine. But at 50 years old, my midlife crisis was, how do I actually get better?
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
I've been doing this for 20-something years. How do you actually get better? And I was like, I, I, I, I'm not comfortable just doing what I do.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
I've read a million thriller writers and they, you know, once you get to their seventh or eighth or ninth book, you're like, "They just phoned it in. It's the same thing." I'm like, "I, I'm terrified to be that person." So I'm like, "How do I get better?" So what I did is I went back and looked at all my books.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
And I asked that question you just asked me, "Which are actually the best?" And I'm not talking about which sold the most. Which are actually the best ones?
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah, yeah, I understand. There's a difference.
- 48:49 – 53:19
Brad's 2024 commencement speech at Michigan
- SPSpeaker
see something that's done wrong. And it's just me trying to figure out which side of me is right, and of course they're both right. You, you know, it, the world takes love and war. And that's my, that's the one I-- But, but, and, and so that's the one I think is the best. I still think the best thing I probably have ever written though, is the Make Magic commencement address, and you helped me with that one. You, you were, you know, the person. But I never, ever had anything that I've written get a reception like that in a way that-
- SSSimon Sinek
There's not many people who give a commencement address that then it becomes a book.
- SPSpeaker
Right. I mean, I knew-- I mean, again, you're from, you know, Maria Shriver was, was bla- I don't know Maria Shriver. I don't know Katie Couric. All these people were blasting this thing out, and people, strangers were contacting family members of mine after I gave the address at the University of Michigan saying, "I want the text of that speech. Can I have that? What you said of, you know, about empathy and about kindness, I want that for my kid. Can you send me that?" And I've been doing this 27 years, and no one's ever contacted my sister and found her unlisted phone number and said, "Can you get me-- I saw your brother in a stadium of 70,000 people today. Can you get me what he said about empathy and kindness?" And I was like, "Something just happened, and I don't know what happened."
- SSSimon Sinek
I know what happened. I know what happened. I know what happened. You have gone from being a New York Times bestselling author multiple times over, you are now, Brad Meltzer, an influencer.
- SPSpeaker
[chuckles] God, the worst. [both laughing] That's why I love you, 'cause you know the nonsense of it all.
- SSSimon Sinek
Look, some people don't know what we're talking about.
- SPSpeaker
Okay. Sorry. Sorry. So, so-
- SSSimon Sinek
Okay, so we, we should say you gave a, you gave a commencement address to the University of Michigan, which is your alma mater.
- SPSpeaker
Is my-- And I went to Michigan, and there's 70,000 people in Michigan Stadium. It, it is crazy.
- SSSimon Sinek
Or Michigan State. Sorry.
- SPSpeaker
But I was focused on one.
- SSSimon Sinek
I don't even know.
- SPSpeaker
I was focused on one 'cause my son was graduating that day.
- SSSimon Sinek
Okay.
- SPSpeaker
And he's in the 14th row, and I'm looking just at my s- I can see him. And, and I'm giving the speech, and you know how it is when you give a talk. You know that there are moments where you, you hope you know where the laugh is gonna come and where the awe is gonna come and where the claps are gonna come. But this was something brand new. I'd never delivered it. I was talking about magic and making magic and that there are-- When you talk to magicians, uh, there are some things that can't be explained, and when you talk to magicians, there are four types of magic tricks. And you t- put aside illusion and s- and escapes, there's four types of tricks. One, you make something appear. Two, you make something disappear. Three, you take one thing and you switch places with another. And the fourth magic trick is you gotta take one thing and turn it into something else, which is the hardest trick of all, transformation. And I talk about in the speech, you gotta make some, what you make appear, what you make disappear, and I get to the third trick, which is I say we have to t- make two things switch places. I say, "Here, let's talk about empathy." And I say cruelty and venom have become sport in our culture, and making fun of other people has become sport in our culture. But cruelty and venom aren't signs of strength. They're signs of weakness and petty insecurity. And what takes strength is switching places with someone else and showing kindness and showing empathy. That's what empathy is, is switching places with someone else, looking, looking through their eyes. And I felt 70,000 people started going banana, and I didn't know what happened. I'm trying to, like, get control of the crowd 'cause, you know, you can kind of like talk-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm
- SPSpeaker
... through a crowd and, like, surf the wave, and I couldn't. And I remember going, "W- what was that? What-- Something happened here, and I can't put my finger on it." And my wife said to me after, "You h- you tapped a vein you didn't know was there." And I think right now, as a culture, we're starving for empathy.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
We're starving for kindness.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
And, and I happened to, in this speech, talk about it. This, this magic trick was, was this focus on empathy and kindness is what just took off. And then all these people started asking for it, and publishers started saying, "We gotta do a book about it." And, and that book came out, but I never saw anything that I wrote get a reaction like that. You helped me with that speech. I, I, I remember calling you and, and, and you were helping me and I'll, and, and I love-- I-- What's funny is when I gave the speech, I said your name. I said, like, I said, like, "Simon Sinek says, you know, 'It's full commitment. That's what magic is, it's full commitment to the bit or it all falls apart.'"
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
And when you said that part to me, that, "Brad, you need full commitment or it all falls apart," I was like, "That's what it is." And my wife said, "You know, you're, you're in front of 70,000 people. You can't practice. You're doing a magic trick in real time, and you're doing exactly what the speech is about, which is full commitment to the bit. You're gonna go for it no matter what. Improvise whatever happens. There are protesters. There's everything else. You're gonna figure it out." And it was me being my truly authentic,
- 53:19 – 55:04
Magic is a gift that you give other people
- SPSpeaker
real self-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm
- SPSpeaker
... telling stories I've never told, telling this is the lowest moment of my family's existence. This is something I was embarrassed to share. This is the person who got to me. And of course, that's what connects, is the pure honesty. And, and, and you taught me this, too. Magic is never something you do for yourself. It's a gift you give other people, right?
- SSSimon Sinek
It's true.
- SPSpeaker
That's what magic is. And by the way, no one does it for themselves, and that's always been your magic trick. Your magic trick has always been your stuff is always for someone else. That's the best part of you. That's why I love you.
- SSSimon Sinek
Uh, this is unfair to people listening to this podcast. You and I just sort of coo at one another.
- SPSpeaker
No, but, um, but here's the thing, is I'll go on, like, 50 other podcasts and you'll do 50 more, but this is as honest as we get, right? 'Cause we know each other for so long. There's no artifice here. This is how we t- I mean, we were talking before this podcast started and we were talking like this. This is what every time we get on the phone, 'cause we alway- we never get on the phone for sure, but every time we get on the phone, it's always the same thing, which is, and it's the same thing from the start. You always leave me, I know your mission is to inspire. I still got the original coin. But, like, I just feel better about the universe. It's not about myself. It's not about... But I feel like I got hope. It, you know, it is, it is hope, man. That is what you give.
- SSSimon Sinek
I feel the same about you. Thank you for-
- SPSpeaker
Love you
- SSSimon Sinek
... thank you for teaching us. Thank you for showing us. Thank you for guiding us. You're the best.
- SPSpeaker
Love you, pal. [outro music]
- SSSimon Sinek
A Bit of Optimism is brought to you by The Optimism Company and is lovingly produced by our team, Lindsay Garbinus, David Ja, and Devon Johnson. If I was able to give you any kind of insight or some inspiration or made you smile, please subscribe wherever you enjoy listening to podcasts for more. And if you're trying to get answers to a problem at work or want to advance a dream, maybe I can help. Simply go to simonsinek.com. Until then, take care of yourself, take care of each other.
Episode duration: 55:05
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