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The Longevity Secret Nobody Can Sell You | Gerontologist Dr. Kerry Burnight

If you’ve ever dabbled in looking into how to extend your life, your social media feed might be inundated with the “hottest” longevity trends: from cold plunges to VO2 max tests to celebrity-endorsed supplements. As a society, we are obsessed with the idea of living longer. And longevity has become a multi-billion dollar industry where everyone’s trying to sell you their secret to a longer life. But if you meet the people leading that movement, you start to ask yourself “are they even happy?” If we’re all trying to live all these extra years, we should also make sure we genuinely enjoy them. That’s why I wanted to talk to Dr. Kerry Burnight about how we age. Known as “America’s Gerontologist”, she specializes in the mental, physical, and social aspects of aging. Kerry has spent two decades as a professor of geratric medicine, and co-founded the nation’s first elder abuse forensic center, where she saw older people isolated, exploited, and suffering. After years of arriving after the damage was done, she started asking a different question: what would prevent that suffering in the first place? Kerry’s answer is a concept she calls “Joyspan,” which is also the title of her New York Times bestseller _Joyspan: The Art and Science of Thriving in Life’s Second Half._ Her work reframes how we think about our long lives: not as a problem to solve by suppressing the aging process, but as a chance to grow with age and build a life with intention and joy. *In this episode you’ll learn:* ➡️ Why the longevity movement lost its way (in a word: humility) ➡️ How Kerry’s mom changed her outlook on life in her late 70s, and is thriving at nearly 98 ➡️ Three questions you should ask yourself every birthday ➡️ Why we should stop “growing older” and start “growing with age” ➡️ The one sentence that helps you find something good even when things are hard ➡️ How to help someone who’s stuck, without just commiserating ➡️ Why friendship might be “the Ozempic of longevity” ➡️ The four practices of people who are still loving life at 100 This conversation isn’t about rejecting the gym or the green vegetables – you should take care of your body too! But the parts of life that make it worth living are often difficult to assign a metric. They take work too. And it’s never too early (or too late) to start. *This… is A Bit of Optimism.* + + + To get a copy of Kerry’s book, _Joyspan: The Art and Science of Thriving in Life's Second Half,_ head to: https://www.drkerryburnight.com/#joyspan + + + Chapters 00:00:00 Dedicating Your Life to Helping Others Age 00:00:43 Beyond Lifespan and Healthspan: Introducing Joyspan 00:02:20 Why the Longevity Movement Lost Its Way 00:03:13 From Elder Abuse to Prevention: A Gerontologist's Journey 00:04:45 How the Longevity Movement Lost Its Way 00:10:40 Introducing JoySpan: The Missing Piece of Longevity 00:13:48 The Chocolate Cake Principle: When Worry Is Worse Than the Thing 00:16:59 What Funerals Teach Us About What Actually Matters 00:18:20 The AGE Framework: Three Questions to Ask Yourself Every Birthday 00:21:25 Why the Intangibles Matter More Than Metrics 00:26:42 Growing With Age, Not Growing Older 00:32:45 Finding the Gift in Every Hardship 00:47:20 The Third Leg of the Stool: Friendship as Longevity Medicine 00:52:30 How to Talk to Young People About Aging (And Why Quality of Life Is the Key) 00:57:08 Four Practices for a High-Quality Life at Any Age 00:57:56 Redefining What It Means to Be Old + + + Simon is an unshakable optimist. He believes in a bright future and our ability to build it together. Described as “a visionary thinker with a rare intellect,” Simon has devoted his professional life to help advance a vision of the world that does not yet exist; a world in which the vast majority of people wake up every single morning inspired, feel safe wherever they are and end the day fulfilled by the work that they do. Simon is the author of multiple best-selling books including _Start With Why,_ _Leaders Eat Last,_ _Together is Better,_ and _The Infinite Game._ + + + Website: http://simonsinek.com/ Leaderful: https://simonsinek.com/leaderful Podcast: http://apple.co/simonsinek Instagram: https://instagram.com/simonsinek/ Linkedin: https://linkedin.com/in/simonsinek/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/simonsinek Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/simonsinek + + + #SimonSinek + + +

Simon SinekhostDr. Kerry Burnightguest
Oct 27, 202658mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 0:43

    Dedicating Your Life to Helping Others Age

    1. SS

      How old was she when she made this pivot?

    2. KB

      Probably in her late 70s, early 80s.

    3. SS

      Oh, wow. That's ast- I didn't, I thought you were gonna say 50s.

    4. KB

      Mm-mm.

    5. SS

      Wow, so, so as long as that, that she changed the course of her life, and it may have added years to her life.

    6. KB

      So there's lifespan, how many years you live. Healthspan, how long you enjoy good health and good cognition. I'm all for both of those, of course.

    7. SS

      Yeah.

    8. KB

      But then this next piece of the quality of your long life, right?

    9. SS

      Yeah.

    10. KB

      About, like, why? Why do you wanna live a long time?

    11. SS

      Yeah.

    12. KB

      It's not so that in your casket you will look a certain way. Like, what? [laughs]

    13. SS

      [laughs] He looks so young.

    14. KB

      He looks so young. [laughs]

    15. SS

      Yeah, yeah. [laughs]

  2. 0:43 – 2:20

    Beyond Lifespan and Healthspan: Introducing Joyspan

    1. SS

      From cold plunges to supplements to VO2 maxing, it seems that we are obsessed with living longer these days. And sure, some of it works. I guess. We'll have to wait and find out. But for better or worse, longevity has turned into a full-on industry and, for many, a competition. Who looks younger? Who lasts longer? But there's something missing. I've met some of these longevity maxers, and a lot of them didn't strike me as particularly happy people, which raises a question I don't hear many people asking, which is, if we're gonna live all these extra years, what are they actually for? That's why I wanted to talk to Kerry Burnight. Kerry is a gerontologist. She studies how we age. She taught at UC Irvine and co-founded the nation's first elder abuse forensic center where, for decades, she saw older people isolated and exploited, sometimes by their own families. All she saw was as people aged, their lives got worse. That's why she came up with the concept of joy span. If lifespan is how long we live and healthspan is how our bodies hold up as we age, then joy span measures whether we're actually enjoying the life we have. So we sat down and talked about it. If we're gonna do all that extra work to live a long time, how can we make sure that that longer life that we have is a good one? If you like this episode, please remember to subscribe. This is A Bit of Optimism.

  3. 2:20 – 3:13

    Why the Longevity Movement Lost Its Way

    1. SS

      You and I have something in common, which is, uh, we believe that, um, a good life is not measured in how long you live it, but rather how much joy and fulfillment and inspiration you get out of it. And I know this has been central to your work. You've written about it, you've spoken about it, um, that there is more to life than the number of years we can get out of it. And I know the whole longevity movement seems to be completely preoccupied with the length of time they're living, and, uh, I've met, I've met some of the leaders of that movement, and they, some of them did not strike me as happy people. I find it ironic. How did you start to think about, uh, you know, the quality of our life rather than the quantity of our life? Where did that come from?

  4. 3:13 – 4:45

    From Elder Abuse to Prevention: A Gerontologist's Journey

    1. KB

      Being a gerontologist has been such a great honor, and working with older people, and I came to thinking about quality of life and thinking about joy from the opposite of that. So for the first 20-something years of my career, I worked with adults who were suffering so much, and what I saw really burned my eyes. And, um, I worked with people who had ended up slumped over in wheelchairs and alone, who had been financially exploited by family members, just, I saw a lot. And in seeing all of that, you think, "How can we prevent this suffering to begin with?" What I was doing is I would come in after the suffering had occurred and try to help.

    2. SS

      Mm.

    3. KB

      And that's laudable.

    4. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    5. KB

      But if we know what would prevent that profound suffering-

    6. SS

      Yeah

    7. KB

      ... wouldn't that be where we'd want to get?

    8. SS

      Yeah.

    9. KB

      Like, it's like the top of the skateboard ramp, whereas I had lived at the bottom of the skateboard ramp.

    10. SS

      You were treating the diabetes as opposed to helping people eat healthy before they ever got it.

    11. KB

      I really was.

    12. SS

      Yeah, yeah.

    13. KB

      Yeah.

    14. SS

      Yeah.

    15. KB

      And so that's just been the guiding principle of saying, "Wow, we know a lot about how to fortify people for long lives," and the longevity movement seems to have really lost its way.

  5. 4:45 – 10:40

    How the Longevity Movement Lost Its Way

    1. SS

      So there's lots of different angles we could take this. I'm curious to your opinion as to why it lost its way, because it seems perfectly legitimate as a, a thing to wanna do, to live a long time. I mean, I think human beings have been trying to do that, you know, since, since the dawn of, of humankind. Where and why do you think it sort of l- got sidetracked?

    2. KB

      I think, in a word, it's humility. We've made longevity a competitive sport where we, "I'm going to beat you by somehow looking younger or stronger or somehow..." In the same way as a society, I think-

    3. SS

      Mm

    4. KB

      ... we've lost our way where looks or fame or money or power as a currency-

    5. SS

      Mm

    6. KB

      ... has taken hold. And so if we were to shift from a competitive win, finite game-

    7. SS

      Mm

    8. KB

      ... to, like, actually, "Wait, what are we doing? Have we thought through this thing?" [laughs]

    9. SS

      Mm.

    10. KB

      Like, what, are you gonna never die? Is that, like, where you're going for? No. Are you gonna somehow never get sick, never grow old? No. I d- I don't, I don't think people... I, why do you think we've lost our way?

    11. SS

      Well, I've never, I've never, uh, heard any... I, I didn't think you were... I didn't expect that answer, but I think it's a, I think it's really astute, which is this idea of competitive living longer, [laughs] you know, as if it's some sort of, like someone's gonna get a medal if they outlive, you know, everybody else, is very interesting, and I think it does drive weird behavior. I think it, it has become weirdly competitive, possibly because also money has entered the equation-

    12. KB

      Yes

    13. SS

      ... which is almost everybody who's, quote, unquote, "leading the longevity movement," um, has something to sell you.

    14. KB

      Mm.

    15. SS

      You know? And I don't mind if people write books about their theories, but, you know, because if you come up with something, you share your ideas. Um, but it seems like there's always the sort of the ancillary, like, "I'll sell you my diet, I'll sell you my workshop, I'll sell you my, my, my supplement. Oh, don't forget the other supplement. Oh, and the other supplement."

    16. KB

      Yes.

    17. SS

      "And then I'll send you the energy drink, and then I'll sell you the energy bar, and then..." And, you know, ironically, you should just be eating, you know, like-

    18. KB

      Food

    19. SS

      ... fresh vegetables and, like, clean, clean protein and y- you'll be fine. [laughs]

    20. KB

      Real things.

    21. SS

      That's, that's the irony-

    22. KB

      Yes

    23. SS

      ... which is selling all of these things that are available for free inside food. And that's maybe drive some of this competitive stuff which is, "I have to prove that my system works better than the other system, and the only way I can prove it is 'cause I'm living longer." We, we don't know who's living longer, but I do love the fact that it's empirical.

    24. KB

      Yes.

    25. SS

      We'll find out in, you know, a couple decades [laughs] who starts dying and getting cancer and everything. That's, it's great. It's, it's ironic.

    26. KB

      And like the, the looks part of it as well. As a woman, that you somehow are winning if you look like you're not growing old, but again, like, to what end?

    27. SS

      To what end?

    28. KB

      And there is such incredible, profound beauty in aging.

    29. SS

      Yeah.

    30. KB

      And in, you know, in being with so many older adults all my life, it's so beautiful.

  6. 10:40 – 13:48

    Introducing JoySpan: The Missing Piece of Longevity

    1. SS

      so as long as that that she changed the course of her life, and it may have added years to her life, but more important, she's enjoying her life more.

    2. KB

      Yes. And so there's lifespan, how many years you live. Healthspan, we brought into the vernacular in the 1980s, how long you enjoy good health and good cognition. I'm all for both of those, of course.

    3. SS

      Yeah.

    4. KB

      But then this next piece of the quality of your long life, right?

    5. SS

      Yeah.

    6. KB

      About, like, why? Why do you want to live a long time?

    7. SS

      Yeah.

    8. KB

      It's not so that in your casket you will look a certain way. Like, what? [laughs]

    9. SS

      He looks so young.

    10. KB

      He looks so young. [laughs]

    11. SS

      Yeah, yeah. [laughs] So, so it's lifespan, of course, we want to live as long as we can. Healthspan, we want to be as, we want to keep our bodies healthy so that we can get around, we can walk, we're ambulatory, we can lift things and partake in life.

    12. KB

      Yes.

    13. SS

      You know, partake with our grandchildren. But then Joyspan, which is and I'm actually enjoying the life that I have. It's all three.

    14. KB

      All three.

    15. SS

      Yeah.

    16. KB

      And they go in the same direction.

    17. SS

      Yeah.

    18. KB

      And that's a g- that's a really great thing, too. It's, that things like purpose-

    19. SS

      Yeah

    20. KB

      ... and all the things that I have learned from you for all these years, those are the things that propel us and are more powerful and salient than th- than the physical things.

    21. SS

      Yeah.

    22. KB

      Like, it is the why.

    23. SS

      Yeah, yeah.

    24. KB

      The why for all of this.

    25. SS

      It's ironic, right? Because you hear people say, and you're right, they get the two things. They'll say things like, "I want to live a long time, but not if I'm gonna be, you know, a-" ... stuck in a home and in a wheelchair and unable to partake and in pain from arthritis, then, then end it, then pull the plug. You hear people make that compromise of my healthspan and my lifespan, that if I don't have the health, then I'd rather not have the life.

    26. KB

      Right.

    27. SS

      But we don't hear people say, "You know what? I don't wanna be living a long time in a healthy body and depressed and anxious and lonely."

    28. KB

      Yes.

    29. SS

      We don't hear people saying that.

    30. KB

      Yes.

  7. 13:48 – 16:59

    The Chocolate Cake Principle: When Worry Is Worse Than the Thing

    1. KB

      older.

    2. SS

      This reminds me of dessert, which is when we stress about eating chocolate cake, the cortisol released about stressing about eating the chocolate cake, the w- is worse for our bodies than the sugar in the chocolate cake.

    3. KB

      Yes.

    4. SS

      So worrying, so if you're gonna eat chocolate cake, just enjoy it. [laughs] Be in, you know, you don't have to eat the whole thing, but, like, just do it with joy. Do it with a smile, and be like, "Damn, that was a good chocolate cake."

    5. KB

      [laughs]

    6. SS

      On to the next. And it's very similar.

    7. KB

      Yes.

    8. SS

      Which is worrying about the thing is actually worse for you than the thing. Worrying about getting older is worse for you than getting older.

    9. KB

      Yes. Let me walk it through for you. So if I buy into this multi-billion dollar anti-aging messaging-

    10. SS

      Mm

    11. KB

      ... that old, y- you, Simon, are going to get irrelevant, ugly, less funny, less charming as you grow older, and you think, "Okay, I, I believe that to be true," it's not true. But if you believe that, then you stop connecting at deep levels. You stop trying new things.

    12. SS

      Mm.

    13. KB

      You stop recognizing that in addition to the hard things, and there will be hard things in every life, there is also great beauty to be had in the humility of going, "Okay, I have challenges with my body or with my vision. I have lost loved ones." And yet, at a deeper level, there is so much to be gained i- by savoring the whole process-

    14. SS

      Mm

    15. KB

      ... and recognizing that it was never supposed to be just easy.

    16. SS

      Mm. I found the thing that has helped me, and I, I, I've definitely fit the mold of as I got older, I definitely got insecure about getting older, and, you know, prided myself on the fact that I sort of have no gray hair for my age and look younger than I am. You know, my beard is getting quite gray now. And, uh, and I always sort of got away with not being, until s- aging started to show up, waking up in the morning and parts of my body hurt that didn't hurt when I went to bed.

    17. KB

      Yes.

    18. SS

      [laughs] What's that?

    19. KB

      Yes.

    20. SS

      You know?

    21. KB

      That's part of it.

    22. SS

      Uh, uh, and the thing that I have found that has helped me actually build my self-confidence, and I still have my moments, of course, is sense of humor. I found that as I was getting older, I was trying to hide it. I was trying to hide that I was trying to get older. Um, you know, pretend that I wasn't getting older. And I found that when I joke about it, it sort of, you know, I find that it just sort of makes me not as worried about it.

    23. KB

      Yes.

    24. SS

      And I still have things that bother me, but they bother me less.

    25. KB

      Yes.

    26. SS

      They, they, it's, I'm not consumed by them. I'm, they're just like, "Oh yeah, that's happening," you know? Uh, like my hairline keeps going higher and higher and higher and higher. And, you know, I would get it fixed, but I don't wanna look like I'm 30, you know?

    27. KB

      And it's not the important thing.

    28. SS

      It's not the important thing.

    29. KB

      Yes. And that's why we're so lucky to be with older people, and you s- have role models ahead of you. And you go, and as a gerontologist, I go to a ton of funerals.

  8. 16:59 – 18:20

    What Funerals Teach Us About What Actually Matters

    1. KB

      That's part of the occupation.

    2. SS

      Oh, yeah.

    3. KB

      And every time I go, no one ever talks about their job titles. They never talk about their money or their car. Never talk about their hairline.

    4. SS

      Yeah.

    5. KB

      They never talk about their jowls. [laughs]

    6. SS

      Yeah.

    7. KB

      But they talk about, "He really saw me."

    8. SS

      Yeah.

    9. KB

      "He was there when no one else was." And there's so much beauty in that, so I just feel like investing in that. And something that you and I share is I went to look up, um, your age, and I saw that we were both born on the same day.

    10. SS

      No kidding.

    11. KB

      Yes.

    12. SS

      October 9th.

    13. KB

      Exactly.

    14. SS

      Oh, look at that. We're twins.

    15. KB

      And so I was thinking about that, not to be too much of a stalker that I [laughs]

    16. SS

      No, that's okay.

    17. KB

      But, um, I was thinking about birthdays can be an opportunity to evaluate how we're doing this thing aging.

    18. SS

      Yeah.

    19. KB

      And aging is another word for living.

    20. SS

      Yeah.

    21. KB

      So all of us are aging, and that's why sometimes when people say, "She's an expert in aging," I'm like, "Absolutely not." There's, nobody gets through it, and I don't even use the term aging gracefully-

    22. SS

      Yeah

    23. KB

      ... 'cause there's hard stuff.

    24. SS

      Yeah.

    25. KB

      But to take our birthday and to ask these three questions, and, um, I made an acronym for them that I didn't think of until after the book came out.

    26. SS

      Of course. Of

  9. 18:20 – 21:25

    The AGE Framework: Three Questions to Ask Yourself Every Birthday

    1. SS

      course.

    2. KB

      [laughs]

    3. SS

      I, I know, I know the feeling I know it is like, it's like George Costanza

    4. KB

      [laughs] Yes

    5. SS

      The jerk stole Coral. They're running out of you. Yeah.

    6. KB

      [laughs] Exactly

    7. SS

      Yeah, yeah.

    8. KB

      So, but like the, the three questions go with these commitments that we, in changing the narrative on how we think about aging, and it spells out AGE. And so, like asking ourself, like, how we are adapting.

    9. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    10. KB

      And that question would be simply, how am I living? How am I walking with, for example, my visual impairment, or how am I walking with, um, the thing that my best friend passed away and I don't have them anymore? Because, like, to adapt is a big part of what will enable us to have a longer joy span, is what I want for people. So, how am I living? And then the second one that goes to G is give. So it is, what's mine to give and what am I giving?

    11. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    12. KB

      Because the happiest older people are people who recognize that they have things to give-

    13. SS

      Mm-hmm

    14. KB

      ... and then find ways to give it. But if you buy into the societal messaging that you're less than and that as you, as a 90-year-old Simon, have less to give, then you're not giving. So that's why we need to put our shoulders back and say like, "No, I have more to give-

    15. SS

      Mm-hmm

    16. KB

      ... than I've ever given before."

    17. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    18. KB

      So the first question, how am I living? What am I giving?

    19. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    20. KB

      And then the last one is the E for emotional connection, and that, who am I walking with?

    21. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    22. KB

      And I've heard you talk about this, but how important it is, and that we're going to lose loved ones. Many of us won't be in partnerships-

    23. SS

      Mm-hmm

    24. KB

      ... because of death-

    25. SS

      Mm-hmm

    26. KB

      ... because of never marrying, because of divorce, a million different reasons. You come in alone and enter, uh, and exit alone, and that's, that's a natural part of it, too. And so our proactive emotional connections of who am I really showing up for, and who can I call with good news? Who could I call when I'm on the toilet with diarrhea? [laughs]

    27. SS

      [laughs]

    28. KB

      You know? Like, these, like, deep connections matter. So if we were to ask those three questions, I think it would put us on a different path.

    29. SS

      Mm-hmm. We're talking about have a healthy body, of course. Um, keep yourself in shape, of course. Do the things, of course. This whole conversation is how you're showing up in life. And I think one of the things that's going back to why the longevity movement sort of went sideways and people don't think about JoySpan, I think it's just harder to measure. You know, I can measure my calorie intake. I can measure how many reps I'm doing and how many sets I'm doing at the, at the gym. Um, I can measure, you know, what supplements I'm taking. I can count the number of pills, the number of grams that I'm supposed to take, be taking, milligrams I'm supposed to be taking. All of that stuff is measurable, and I think for people who like process and who like action, I, I don't think it's a coincidence that it, the longevity movement skews male. It's that sort of aggressive metric sort of, sort of thing. Um,

  10. 21:25 – 26:42

    Why the Intangibles Matter More Than Metrics

    1. SS

      it's just easy to measure. Um, and I can measure the years that I live, too. All easy, all easy metrics. Whereas how, how do I get happier? How do I find more joy? How do I, how do I feel like I'm giving? How do I create emotional connection? Those things are more amorphous, and I think because they're hard to measure, I some think, some people think they're hard to do or less important.

    2. KB

      Right.

    3. SS

      Less important because it doesn't have a number.

    4. KB

      Yes, and you know, when-

    5. SS

      So that's kind of this whole conversation. What we're talking is the, the unmeasurable parts of life. The Marine Corps has a word for them. The Marine Corps calls them the intangibles.

    6. KB

      Yes.

    7. SS

      And they talk about what makes the Marine Corps great. Sure, all the metrics and how good we do this and how good we do that, we can handle that, but truly the magic they talk about is the intangibles.

    8. KB

      Yes.

    9. SS

      And they include things like loyalty.

    10. KB

      Yes.

    11. SS

      They include things like honor, you know. They're the intangibles, and I think we don't pay enough attention in our lives to the intangibles.

    12. KB

      And at the end of life, it is people, they always talk about the intangibles.

    13. SS

      Yeah.

    14. KB

      They're, they bring that up. Who am I? What have I meant here? What has my time... It's all intangibles. So my question for you, and I'm so honored to ask it, is how do we decrease suffering of older adults and change how we as a society address this fact that every day 12,000 more of us are turning 65, to promote the intangibles in order that people would suffer less and enjoy greater quality of life? Like, how do we do that?

    15. SS

      Well, I think asked and answered. I mean, here we are, right? I think we're doing it. I think it's important to have these conversations. I think, uh, it's important to, um, use, uh, terminology where we're not shaming or guilting anybody into, into it, but inviting people. Um, I think that we are also talking about the fact that this stuff does require work, like eating well, like exercising, that the intangibles require work. Like, you have to put in effort-

    16. KB

      Yes

    17. SS

      ... uh, to make friends and make people feel seen. You have to put in effort to adapt, you know? It, it, it's not a one and done kind of thing. Something pushes you out of, out of alignment, you know, whether it's death of a loved one or all the, the, some of the examples that you, you offered. There's a, there's a process that, that you have to go through. Um, and some of that work is actually quite hard.

    18. KB

      Yes.

    19. SS

      And so I think talking about and offering people tangible steps that they can take on this journey, even though it's intangible, there are tangible things we can do, and there are tangible skills we can learn to aid us on that journey. I think that's why your work is important, why you putting, publishing your work and sharing your work is important, because you have a point of view and a perspective that you've figured some of this stuff out. Plus, you've seen it firsthand by working with, uh, an elderly population, and, and your mother, who sounds incredible. I think what's so inspiring about your mom is, i- is literally she waited [laughs] almost to the last minute-

    20. KB

      [laughs]

    21. SS

      ... to change the way she lives her life, and not only has she lived longer, I mean, we won't know if she didn't live that long, that she wouldn't have lived that long without this stuff, but we can say she's definitely happier at 98-

    22. KB

      Yes

    23. SS

      ... on this path than she would've been the other way.

    24. KB

      And interestingly, we can even say she lives longer because research consistently shows us that, for example, feeling like you have a sense of purpose-

    25. SS

      Yeah

    26. KB

      Even holding all the variables constant that would impact that, people with a sense of purpose live longer and in better health because of lower inflammation.

    27. SS

      Right.

    28. KB

      So it is physiologically-

    29. SS

      Yeah, yeah, yeah

    30. KB

      ... and that's what I mean, it goes in the same direction.

  11. 26:42 – 32:45

    Growing With Age, Not Growing Older

    1. KB

      young, that's staying. That's gripping ourselves going backwards, whereas if we could start to embrace growing older.

    2. SS

      What would you say? 'Cause growing older is biology. Everybody grows older whether you like it or not. I think, ah, I'm hearing what you're saying. It's the emphasis on the grow.

    3. KB

      Yes. Y- Like, getting old is maybe one way to say-

    4. SS

      Right, right, right

    5. KB

      ... growing old.

    6. SS

      But growing, growing with age.

    7. KB

      And the thing is, we're swimming in a sea of ageism and internalized ageism, so much so that we don't even notice. So people go, "You don't even look your age." Like, actually, if you dig into that, we don't need to say that, right? We're stepping into, "I'm 80. This is what 80 looks like." It's gonna look d- different in different ways, because this decline aging mindset that everything is downhill is simply not true. It's not supported by the literature. Things get better as you get older. For example, you know who your people are. You have greater problem-solving abilities as a result of solving so many problems, a greater appreciation of art and music and nature-

    8. SS

      Yeah

    9. KB

      ... and spirituality and gray, and less me, me, me. There's a lot of goodness to old, but we've gotta push it aside and say, "We're not doing it that way that we were doing it."

    10. SS

      May, may, may I t- make an indulgence-

    11. KB

      Please

    12. SS

      ... and ask that I change some of your language?

    13. KB

      Please.

    14. SS

      'Cause growing older, the problem is it's a, it's an accepted phrase, and so we're, if by redefining something that I already understand, it's harder to-

    15. KB

      Yes

    16. SS

      ... it's like redefining a tree. I'm like, "I think I know what a tree is." I'm like, well, let me re- use my definition. So I like what you said a moment ago. I think it's growing with age, because that's not an accepted terminology.

    17. KB

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    18. SS

      And it, and it, what it does when you say, "I'm growing with age," that makes somebody lean in and say, "What?" And you, y- you get to define it, and the emphasis is on the y- you doing the growing while you age-

    19. KB

      Yes

    20. SS

      ... rather than the, the, the passage of time. So I think growing with age is more curiosity-inducing and more accurate than growing older.

    21. KB

      Well, it's not as if you're Simon Sinek telling me this. [laughs]

    22. SS

      [laughs]

    23. KB

      This whole journey has been so, so incredibly rewarding for opportunities like this.

    24. SS

      Mm.

    25. KB

      And I feel like because it's a, it's a kind of movement whose time has come, like, just doors have opened and opened and opened, and-

    26. SS

      You're growing with age.

    27. KB

      I'm growing with age, and we can become the most aut- authentic version of ourself.

    28. SS

      Yeah.

    29. KB

      And so, like, the best version of us truly can lie ahead.

    30. SS

      Yeah.

  12. 32:45 – 47:20

    Finding the Gift in Every Hardship

    1. SS

      There's an irony in it, right? Because I don't think you can grow with age without taking some punches.

    2. KB

      Right.

    3. SS

      You know? You don't become a better fighter when you win all your fights. You, you become a better fighter when you've taken some punches. I think we forget the value of hardship and the value of pain. I'll give you a, an extreme example. I believe that, um, everything is about balance. Nature abhors a vacuum and seeks equilibrium at all times. And, um, and so if something good happens in our life, well, that came at a cost, right? You should know that cost. And for some people, those costs are worth it, and some people they aren't. But there's always a cost for the good that happens in our lives.

    4. KB

      Mm.

    5. SS

      And at the same time, when bad things happen, there's always something we get from it. There's a lesson or some- something to be learned or become, whatever it is. And so it's, I, I, what I've found is that when I evaluate the costs of the good things that happen to me, it keeps me humble and make sure that I don't get too seduced by the good things because the costs go up. Um, and at the same time, when bad things happen, and I'm not talking about in the short term-

    6. KB

      Mm

    7. SS

      ... like when bad things happen, you mourn, you go through anger, you go through sadness, absolutely. I'm not talking about find the good lesson the day it happens.

    8. KB

      Right.

    9. SS

      You know? That's not fair. But at some point in a, in a healthy amount of time being passed, you can say, "Okay, what did I get from this?" A friend of mine who's in her early 40s, uh, had a stroke. And, uh, she was blind for a short period of time. Uh, it's been over a year, and I saw her recently, and I asked her, I, I prepped the question. I said, "I'm gonna ask you a really uncomfortable question, um, and forgive me, but given what's going on, but I really, I really am curious." I said, "I know you don't like that you had a stroke, clearly. I know you never wanna have another one, and you don't wish this upon anyone. I know that. But I'd like to know if you said to yourself, 'I never wanna go through this again, and I wish it never happened... but I'm glad it did,' I'd like to know what of this whole experience you're secretly glad because you got something from it." And she was great. She answered the question with vigor. She s- didn't think very long. She looked at me, and she said, "I'll, I'm a better person." She says, "I like myself more." She goes, "I used to be very judgmental. I'm not so judgmental anymore." She said, "I was impatient." She goes, "I got all the patience in the world now." And she said, "I'm kinder. I'm kinder to myself, and I'm kinder to others." She goes, "I, I, I like myself better now. And though I don't wanna go through that again and I wish I never went through it, I'm, I, I, I'm a better person because of it."

    10. KB

      That's so beautiful.

    11. SS

      And, and that's my point, which is at some point after the hardship, the tragedy, the difficulty, I think it is right to ask ourself the question, "I wish this never happened, but I'm glad it did-"

    12. KB

      Yeah

    13. SS

      ... because, and it forces, it's a forcing mechanism to find goodness and joy in struggle. And I think we live in a world right now where discomfort is something to be actively avoided.

    14. KB

      Listening to what you're saying is making me emotional because you are putting words to what I have seen over and over again, which is really the impetus of the work, that it, life, it isn't a case of avoiding all pain. I, and I just don't know any life that have that. And so that recognition of that pain is part of it, and that in that pain, there is that equilibrium of what we've learned and what humans do with both the good things-

    15. SS

      Mm

    16. KB

      ... and the rougher things. And I too have a similar situation, one that I just learned about on my way driving here from Laguna Beach, and that is that my mom, who I was just talking about, they called and said that, um, because she's in congestive heart failure, we need to make a decision about a surgery. And they said it was something that we would do on Monday. And at- Almost 98. This, it is to be expected, but it is like, yes, this is how life does. It isn't wrong because it's hard or confusing or b- has some indignity. And then similarly, our daughter, right before she was supposed to start for medical school, was diagnosed with a brain tumor. Again, not what anyone would wish for, not what we would ever expect, and yet when you ask those questions, now it's been two years, she wasn't able to go to that school. She needed to, you know, go to a different school next to her neurosurgeon. Way more empathy than she ever would have had.

    17. SS

      Mm.

    18. KB

      Way different trajectory. So it isn't toxic positivity-

    19. SS

      No, no

    20. KB

      ... because we recognize that I don't want this, this stinks, this is hard, this is painful, this is lonely, and yet in that lies the beauty-

    21. SS

      Mm

    22. KB

      ... of what it means to be human.

    23. SS

      Yeah.

    24. KB

      And, like, what matters in life is a lot more than your abs-

    25. SS

      Yeah

    26. KB

      ... and your VO2 max.

    27. SS

      And, and I'm not, I'm not asking people to be... I'm not even... It's not even a gratitude practice. It's not like, "I'm glad it happened."

    28. KB

      Right.

    29. SS

      That's not what we're talking about. What it... It's a forcing mechanism to recognize the balance, the equ- to recognize the equation. That's all it is.

    30. KB

      Mm.

  13. 47:20 – 52:30

    The Third Leg of the Stool: Friendship as Longevity Medicine

    1. KB

      It, what I'm learning now, I'll be 57, and it's that I need to step up and be a better friend, a more proactive friend, a more, like, it's so much a verb of friending-

    2. SS

      Yeah

    3. KB

      ... of, like, really going, "I'm thinking about you. I'm choosing you. You're choosing me." I, it's-

    4. SS

      It should feel special, and I, this is my new work. My work is the, the verb of friending, to friend, you know?

    5. KB

      Hmm.

    6. SS

      This is what the work we do-

    7. KB

      I didn't know that. [laughs]

    8. SS

      Yeah, that's literally the book I'm writing, which is, which is how to friend, you know? Like, like, we- we're, we're crap at it.

    9. KB

      Yes.

    10. SS

      You know? And we don't know how to do friendship.

    11. KB

      Yes.

    12. SS

      We have therapists to help us have marriages, and we have coaches to help us at work to be leaders, and we have nothing to help us do the act of friending. So I'm trying to, to write about it and learn about it. I think you're 100% right.

    13. KB

      I can't wait for that book, and it's a book that will, like, all life long, because the biggest predictor is these connections that we have.

    14. SS

      Yeah.

    15. KB

      I mean, that's the big, like, the Ozempic of longevity is friendship, [laughs] right?

    16. SS

      Yeah, yeah.

    17. KB

      If we could put it into a shot, we would all be-

    18. SS

      Oh my God, yeah

    19. KB

      ... running around doing that. And to, to say, "How do we do it? Am I putting enough into it?"

    20. SS

      I think-

    21. KB

      Yeah

    22. SS

      ... I think friendship is the, is the third, is the third, uh, leg of the stool of your, uh, uh, uh, joy span.

    23. KB

      Yes.

    24. SS

      Right? Because if I say the first leg is my romantic partnership, and whether you call that lifespan-

    25. KB

      Mm-hmm

    26. SS

      ... the point is, is there's lots of data, there's lots of work, there's lots of available help You know, to help you make your romantic relationship successful as possible. Then the third one- the second one is professional, and that would be your, you know, your healthspan. Again, lots of data, lots of stuff on how to, like, build a career, find the job that fits you. And then you get to the third one, which is Joyspan and friendship, and there's so little information, and so little data, and so hard to measure, and we don't even know when it's good or when it's not.

    27. KB

      Right.

    28. SS

      And yet you need all three legs of the stool to live a, a fulfilled and happy life.

    29. KB

      Yes.

    30. SS

      And you- I want you to be romantically successful, I want you to be professionally successful, and I want you to be friendshippily successful, but we don't talk about the friendship part.

  14. 52:30 – 57:08

    How to Talk to Young People About Aging (And Why Quality of Life Is the Key)

    1. SS

      this. We're talking about old people, right? We're talking about old people trying to get the most out of their lives before they croak, right?

    2. KB

      [laughs]

    3. SS

      That's what we're talking about. That is the subject.

    4. KB

      Us. [laughs]

    5. SS

      Oh, yeah. It's like, I mean, this is a subject that people who are approaching their mortality, who are closer to the age they're gonna die than the age they were born-

    6. KB

      Yes

    7. SS

      ... like, th- that, the, we're having this conversation because that's our life.

    8. KB

      Yeah.

    9. SS

      Right? Somebody who's in their 30s, this is the most, I don't even know if they're still listening. It's like asking somebody, you know, to start saving money on their first... Like, nobody thinks about the future.

    10. KB

      Right.

    11. SS

      Right? Like, how do we... f- How is this convers- And you've had these conversations, which is [laughs] why I'm asking you. Like, h- how do I frame this? How do we frame this topic so that someone in their 20s and 30s is actually thinking about the stuff that we're talking about seriously?

    12. KB

      This is what I think is changing. I think that we older people-

    13. SS

      [laughs]

    14. KB

      ... are stepping into it, and we are putting our shoulders back, and leaning into this, and showing that we are dancing, we are making friends, we are laughing, we are learning new things. And you think about how isolated and lonely younger people feel. So these same principles, it isn't like an, a them and us, young and old kind of thing. Like, investing in our quality of life and recognizing that it's an inside job that has a choice and that has work, and in the same way that investing in, in our weightlifting, if you do a little bit every day, you're gonna have a different trajectory. The same thing is true in terms of quality of life. There are known things that you can do, that the earlier you start, you're going to improve your quality of life.

    15. SS

      There we go. That's, that's it. That's what it is. That's the thing. That's the great, that's the great unifier. That regardless of our age, we want a high quality of life.

    16. KB

      Yes.

    17. SS

      Um, and high quality of life includes lifespan, healthspan, and Joyspan, and all young people are already aware of lifespan and healthspan because it's, it's, we've, we've had it, you know, from gym class-

    18. KB

      Yes

    19. SS

      ... you know, and everybody knows what eating healthy is, whether we do it or not. Um, but Joyspan is the thing that improves the quality of life dramatically.

    20. KB

      Yes.

    21. SS

      Dramatically more. It's the third, it's the third leg of the stool.

    22. KB

      Yes.

    23. SS

      And it'll give more... There's this word again. If you have the third leg of the stool, then you have more balance-

    24. KB

      Yes

    25. SS

      ... in your life. There's that word again. So-

    26. KB

      Exactly, and it's, like, when people say, "What is it, even?" It is a- Love and meaning and purpose and like you called it the intangibles, but they're harder to measure-

    27. SS

      Yeah

    28. KB

      ... but they really... And there is some MIT age lab has created a fulfillment index that they're starting to use in some doctor's office in, like, Humana's CenterWell had, is putting this forward so we can just start to talk about these things-

    29. SS

      Yeah

    30. KB

      ... that we're more than just-

  15. 57:08 – 57:56

    Four Practices for a High-Quality Life at Any Age

    1. KB

      Okay. So they, and again, I wish they had such a lovely acronym, but it starts with a G and ends with a G. So we got that going.

    2. SS

      Okay.

    3. KB

      The middle two are CA. We live in California.

    4. SS

      Okay.

    5. KB

      It's not great.

    6. SS

      So-

    7. KB

      Okay, so the first G is growing.

    8. SS

      And then?

    9. KB

      Connecting, adapting, and giving.

    10. SS

      Okay. And no pa- they're, and they're in no particular order. Just do all of them at some point. It's like arms, legs, you know-

    11. KB

      Leg day

    12. SS

      ... core, bi-

    13. KB

      Yeah

    14. SS

      ... like, doesn't matter the order. Just do them.

    15. KB

      Exactly.

    16. SS

      Same thing.

    17. KB

      And that they're, they are small.

    18. SS

      Right.

    19. KB

      That these practices are small little practices.

    20. SS

      Giving, connecting, adapting, and growing.

    21. KB

      Yes. This is like an utter dream come true to get people talking and thinking about it so that we can not just say, "Oh, we're so weird about aging. It's so bad how we treat

  16. 57:56 – 58:53

    Redefining What It Means to Be Old

    1. KB

      people." And, like, the tragedy isn't that we're growing older. It's that we've made it humiliating and less than and awful-

    2. SS

      Yeah

    3. KB

      ... when in fact, we can put the work in to redefine what it means to be-

    4. SS

      Yeah

    5. KB

      ... old.

    6. SS

      Thanks so much for coming on. This is, I, I'm, I'm so, I've learned so much and the, the, I just absolutely love the term, uh, growing with age. I, I'm, I'm fully embracing that. Um-

    7. KB

      I am too. I'm so grateful-

    8. SS

      And this, I kind of like, I already know there's a list of friends I'm gonna call and be like, "You're gonna love this," you know?

    9. KB

      Ah.

    10. SS

      Uh, yeah, this was great. Thank you so, so much. I really appreciate you coming on. What a joy.

    11. KB

      Thank you very much.

    12. SS

      As always, thank you for watching. If you liked this episode, please subscribe to A Bit of Optimism for more interesting guests and even more interesting conversations. New episodes drop every Tuesday. But if you'd like more optimism right now, click here to watch another episode. Until next time, take care of yourself, take care of each other.

Episode duration: 58:54

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