Simon SinekThe Power of Doing One Thing Exceptionally Well with Gymshark CEO Ben Francis | A Bit of Optimism
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
70 min read · 14,151 words- 0:00 – 2:18
Why Simon Sinek admires Gymshark: infinite-minded focus and “We Do Gym” clarity
- SSSimon Sinek
I don't think I'm your core Gymshark customer.
- BFBen Francis
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
But I'm absolutely in love with your company-
- BFBen Francis
Mm
- SSSimon Sinek
... because I preach these models of infinite mindedness-
- BFBen Francis
Mm
- SSSimon Sinek
... and that committing to something bigger than yourself and ensuring that it can outlast you in its current form-
- BFBen Francis
Mm
- SSSimon Sinek
... is very rare.
- BFBen Francis
I think, you know, getting a bit older, we've got three kids now. Everyone wants to be a cool dad, right? And I think there's nothing cooler than building something that really stands the test of time.
- SSSimon Sinek
I am an idealist. The things that I write about, the things that I speak about are about an ideal version of the way the world and business could work. But every now and then, every now and then, I get to meet a company that, well, it's hard for me to be accused of being a crazy idealist if what I imagine exists in reality. People are always asking me what businesses really exemplify the things that I write about. Well, one of them is Gymshark. Gymshark makes one thing for one audience. They make amazing gym wear for people who go to the gym. "We do gym," as they say. And Ben Francis is one of the most remarkable young leaders I've ever met. He's the founder and CEO of Gymshark, and he's only 33 years old, and in 13 years he has built an iconic global brand. And how has he done it? By keeping it absolutely pure and wanting to build a company that can outlast him, in fact, one that can last 100 years. And given how so many young entrepreneurs start their businesses and try to build their businesses, waiting for the IPO, waiting for the exit, trying to have a liquidity event, Ben is the complete opposite. He is driven by the purest form of entrepreneurship, to make great products for one community as best as he can, and the result is profound. This is A Bit of Optimism. I think you know this, I'm a huge fan of yours. Um, we've only met once before.
- BFBen Francis
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Um, I knew about you and I knew about Gymshark, and it was... I- we met last year for the first time just 'cause I wanted to, to meet you. You are what is, I think, the purest form of what an entrepreneur is-
- BFBen Francis
Mm
- SSSimon Sinek
... and entrepreneur should be.
- BFBen Francis
Thank you.
- 2:18 – 4:57
Staying “pure” while scaling: resisting distractions and defining what is (and isn’t) Gymshark
- SSSimon Sinek
Uh, and you've built a company that has that same purity. Gymshark was born in a gym.
- BFBen Francis
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
You made the product yourself-
- BFBen Francis
Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... which is, like, this quintessential entrepreneurial story.
- BFBen Francis
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Other people wanted the stuff that you were making for yourself.
- BFBen Francis
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And before you know it, you're selling more than you can sew yourself.
- BFBen Francis
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And thus is born Gymshark.
- BFBen Francis
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
How are you able to maintain sort of, if we use the word purity-
- BFBen Francis
Mm
- SSSimon Sinek
... you're now a huge company.
- BFBen Francis
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
You're a global company. I'm at your headquarters here. There's three buildings-
- BFBen Francis
Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... worth of offices.
- BFBen Francis
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
You know, how are you able to make it still stay so focused and not be tempted to go do everything else?
- BFBen Francis
Oh, well, we're definitely tempted, uh, and we have been over the years. Thank you, by the way. I think that was really kind of you to say. But I think the, the business is... Well, we're 12, 13 years old now, and there's been so many different versions of our business since Gymshark first started. It's difficult at times to recognize what is a temptation and what is a really viable and valuable opportunity, because the business has changed so much since it first started. So if I think back to 2012, 2013, uh, Gymshark only sold supplements. We didn't even sell apparel. And then we... It was only through running the business we sort of fell in love with making apparel, to your point, literally for ourselves, 'cause we couldn't find the clothes that we wanted to wear, and then that naturally then removed... We would then remove supplements because it was, it... That then became a distraction. Particularly over the last sort of year, I think we've really hit our stride in knowing what is and isn't Gymshark for us, and this is more of a, a medium to larger business problem. I don't think this is a problem that maybe too many startups would have. But it was really about defining what is Gymshark, and that's where the We Do Gym campaign sort of started. It was about making sure that we're, we're laser focused on what really makes us special. And again, that sort of We Do Gym campaign, that all came from a desire and ambition to be what we... We talk a lot internally about being a 100-year brand. We wanna be a brand that lasts longer than, than myself or anyone here at this business. That, that's the real, real ambition. And I admire a lot of brands that really do stand the test of time. So if we look at it from a top-line perspective, if we wanna build a brand that will stand the test of time, to do that, we have to be really good at one thing, and it's we're really focused on the gym. We're laser focused on the gym in a way that, that almost no one else is in the world. That's what makes us special. That's what we're gonna focus on, and that's what we're gonna make sure we're the best in the world at.
- 4:57 – 6:33
Gym vs. sportswear: why Gymshark refuses to broaden into “sports”
- SSSimon Sinek
So you... So all of your stuff is made for proper use in the gym, and you may wanna wear it for fashion, but that's up to you.
- BFBen Francis
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Where I think a lot of brands are the other, the opposite, which is, "Look how fashionable and beautiful our stuff is," and it may or may not actually work in the gym.
- BFBen Francis
Yeah. Or, or-
- SSSimon Sinek
I'm thinking about some of your, your sort of hiring competitors
- BFBen Francis
... or, or spor- sportswear focus. So I'm a massive admirer of some of the really big sportswear brands, and like, they, they were very much around sports. Even we... If we look at Nike, for example-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- BFBen Francis
... Nike started with a running shoe.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- BFBen Francis
And then obviously then it's, it's heavily a, a sports-focused brand to me. And yeah, people wear it outside of sports for fashion and so on, but it's, it is a sportswear brand, and so are many of the other big brands. Whereas we've said that we're not gonna get into sports. Sport, competitive sport, team sport isn't-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm. Mm
- BFBen Francis
... a Gymshark thing. The gym is the Gymshark thing, and it's, it's interesting because the gym in many ways is a solitary pursuit, but it's also aided by a broader community, and I think that's what we've really noticed. And I noticed again, um, I first went to the gym when I was about 16, and it was so intimidating to me. 'Cause I walked into this gym and there was all these weights, and I didn't really know how to use the machines. I didn't know what I was doing. I went in, I was trying to do things, and I thought everyone was looking at me 'cause I was doing it all wrongIn reality, everyone was sort of more worried about themselves than they were about me, and everyone was probably in their own heads as well. And then I actually went online. I was on bodybuilding forums and things like that, YouTube, to learn exercises and to find people that were basically going through the same thing as me. And again, that's where Gymshark was born out of, building the apparel that no one else was making, but then also trying to offer that community to kids very much like myself at the time that were getting into the gym.
- 6:33 – 10:43
How Gymshark really started: low ambition, Shopify, dropshipping, and the first sale
- SSSimon Sinek
How long in before you started thinking, "I probably need some sort of vision. I probably need some sort of strategy"? Like, these words that-
- BFBen Francis
Mm. Like, a while
- SSSimon Sinek
... you know, get thrown about in the entrepreneur world. I think a lot of people don't realize that it's not really how it happens.
- BFBen Francis
No. At minimum, five years.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- BFBen Francis
So if I th- so if I think back to how Gymshark first started, so before Gymshark, I... So I loved making things, websites, iPhone apps, things like that, and I actually had, I think I had about six or seven that I'd started prior that had failed, that just I'd tried, and it just hadn't quite worked. Gymshark, when it first started, was I had the, an ambition to build a website that would sell things and transact. Every- nothing else at that point had ever sold anything. It was a forum or a s- it was a mini sort of social network. It was an iPhone app, and they didn't really make money, and the whole idea was they would through, through ads. It, they were all free, and they would make money through ads. So I thought, "I'd love to sell something." Um, and the Gymshark website was a website that sold things, and when we, at the time, we found Shopify, and that just made life 10 times easier than, than what it was prior. So the, the ambition was actually incredibly low. The ambition was to make a website that would sell things, and then once we'd done that, again, which was actually relatively easy, then it was, let's sell something on the website. And then I sort of thought at the time, I thought, "Okay, now-"
- SSSimon Sinek
Like, instead of selling other people's things, sell our own things.
- BFBen Francis
Well, no, just sell something.
- SSSimon Sinek
Just-
- BFBen Francis
'Cause, just because w- I thought that once we've made a website, it's almost like having a shop on the high street. People would just find their way there-
- SSSimon Sinek
Right
- BFBen Francis
... and someone would buy something, and no one did for months.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- BFBen Francis
There was, there was not enough stuff on the website. So it was supposed to sell supplements, and there was a friend of mine that worked not far from here, and he worked as a salesperson in a supplement sh- uh, supplement brand. And I called him up, and I said, I said, "Dan, can you, can you get us some supplements to sell on this website?" And he went away, and he said, "Yeah, I'll get you a de- I'll get you a deal," on mate's rate sort of thing. And, um, he rang me back, and he said, "Right, I've got you a deal. I can get you some supplements. You can put these on your website and sell them, but the minimum buy is eight grand." Now, I'd never heard of eight grand, let alone seen eight grand, right? I was at Pizza Hut, £4 something an hour at the time. And I loved the job, by the way, but I just, I wasn't gonna get that sort of money together. And I thought, "Oh, God." So th- this whole idea of selling things online's great until you need product, until you need inventory. Anyway, with that problem, I then happened to fall upon a concept online called dropshipping, and then that was great. That was music to my ears 'cause I thought, "Wow, this website that's gonna sell things, I can now sell things without having to buy those things in the first place." So I basically had hundreds of supplements on the website, and they would dropship from another website. Now, the margin was really low, but at that point, the ambition wasn't, it wasn't to make money necessarily. It was to sell something. I think it took a few months, and eventually we sold something, and I remember it to this day. It was a five kiloga- five kilogram tub of USN Hyperbolic Mass.
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- BFBen Francis
Someone bought it, and it was £52, and, uh, of the £52, uh, £2 was profit.
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- BFBen Francis
And it took two or three months to get to that point, so it took two or three m- making a pound a month in profit from that one order, right? But it didn't matter to me because at the, at the, the, at that point, the ambition-
- SSSimon Sinek
You're still working-
- BFBen Francis
Yeah, the am-
- SSSimon Sinek
You're still working your pizza job.
- BFBen Francis
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- BFBen Francis
Uh, actually, I was for a long time after that, but I think the ambition was literally to sell something.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- BFBen Francis
And I think there's, there's a lot to be said when starting a business, going back to your original point, not to have these massive ambitions-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- BFBen Francis
... to build a 100-year brand. I think there's a lot to be said about having incredibly low ambitions. Set the bar so incredibly low-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- BFBen Francis
... and just incrementally build that thing because then that sale, I remember being at my mum and dad's in my bedroom, dancing around the room, and I was so happy. And a lot of people that sell things online will never, ever forget that first sale-
- 10:43 – 12:11
From dropshipping to making apparel: the nan’s sewing machine moment
- BFBen Francis
that a lot of bus- big businesses really need, I think, to, you know, manage themselves, particularly directionally, and, you know. We just started a business to sell things and then to sell more things and just to slowly build that business. And then it, it... We then just started getting regular sales, and it was really obvious to me, because of the low margins in dropshipping, that it just, that just wasn't a viable business. And, um, my nan was actually doing a curtain-making course at the time, and she had a sewing machine on her dining room table, and it was seeing that that made me think, "Well, maybe we could make clothes, and we could make our own clothes." And then we literally just started making clothes for ourselves and our friends, put them online, and, and that's where it all started.
- SSSimon Sinek
It goes back to purity-
- BFBen Francis
Mm
- SSSimon Sinek
... which is I think the model for a lot of young entrepreneurs are, you know, the, the unicorns.
- BFBen Francis
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Uh, and a unicorn, the definition's changed slightly, but, you know, it used to be a company that, that achieves a billion dollars in revenues.
- BFBen Francis
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And I think it's market cap, which is a lower standard.
- BFBen Francis
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Uh, um, and there's only, if you go by revenues, you know, for a new business to achieve a billion dollars in, in sales is, it's a very small number.
- BFBen Francis
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
It's a very, very small number-
- BFBen Francis
Mm
- SSSimon Sinek
... which is why they're called unicorns-
- BFBen Francis
Mm
- SSSimon Sinek
... out of the millions and millions and tens of millions of businesses that exist.
- BFBen Francis
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And I think a lot of young entrepreneurs, you know, they, they look to Silicon Valley-
- BFBen Francis
Mm
- SSSimon Sinek
... as their model, and they look, and they, they, you know, the, the ambition is, is the IPO-
- BFBen Francis
Mm
- SSSimon Sinek
... and the ambition is wealth.
- BFBen Francis
Mm-hmm.
- 12:11 – 16:24
Rejecting the unicorn/exit mindset: where the “100-year brand” idea came from
- SSSimon Sinek
And the, you know, um, and so it's very rare to hearA CEO to hear a founder say, "I, I wanna build a hundred-year business."
- BFBen Francis
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
When did that idea come and why did that idea come? Like, why-
- BFBen Francis
And-
- SSSimon Sinek
Why build a hundred-year business? Why not build, you know, 20 years? Why not just-
- BFBen Francis
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... you know, Steve Jobs even said, like, "When I leave, if Apple collapses, who cares?" You know?
- BFBen Francis
Yeah, I think, I don't know, I don't-
- SSSimon Sinek
Those weren't his exact words.
- BFBen Francis
Yeah, no.
- SSSimon Sinek
But [laughs]
- BFBen Francis
I don't know where the idea came from. I, I, I think it's a lot, lots of different things. I think I've always been... The, the th- the thing that really, I really enjoy is obviously speaking to customers, building a great brand, and really focusing on the product. I just, I just love those three things. And that, if you said to me, "What is your perfect week?" It would be that. It would be a, a Gymshark event with the community, with the athletes, talking about the product, you know. It would be that sort of thing. I, I also think maybe it's as the business has continued to grow, you, you def- you know, you look around and you think, what, you know, what, what are we trying to achieve here? What are we, what are we trying to build? And I think, I also look back to probably the first job I ever did. So when I was a teenager, I did work experience with my grandad, and we, I worked with him a, a fair bit. Uh, we would go around the Midlands, where we are today, and we would line furnaces. So we'd line furnaces with brick, with ceramic fiber, and, you know, they were long days. Um, but in those long days, you would end up just, just talking and, you know, I learnt so much from him. I learnt all about, you know, taking risks, taking business risks from him. He was a, he's a one-man band. He still works today. So I think I learnt a lot from him, and he taught me a lot about being really grateful to have work. Um, you know, I think a lot of people, certainly around here, uh, you know, w- don't always have work. So I think being in a job that I really love and having so much to do, I think is an absolute blessing, and I feel so fortunate to be in this position. So I think there's a bit of that. I think as well, I, I sort of looked at what we're building, and I sort of recognize that it is quite unique. We're so brand and c- community-focused. There aren't that many businesses in our, that have the opportunity that we now have. So I think it's a bit of that. But I'm not really sure. But the one thing that I have known, sort of as this hundred-year brand vision has sort of come to fruition in my mind over the last few years, that it's definitely changed the way that I think about things quite a lot. It's, uh, it's changed the way that we think about our brand, the way that we think about our product development, even the way that we think about hiring. And again, I don't know exactly where it came from. I think it's just... I, I know I've been inspired by lots of businesses local to here. So if you think within just a few miles of where we are now, you've got Jaguar Land Rover down the road. Land Rover is an incredible brand. It's a brand that I've been around literally my entire life. I love Land Rovers. I love the authenticity of their product, and I love that they build the best off-roaders. I, I love the fact that they've built the best off-roaders i- since the 1940s, when they were founded, still to today. I think that's really inspiring. Uh, you've got Cadbury in Bournville as well, which a- ga- which is a chocolate brand out of the UK, and I think seeing those brands that have really stood the test of time is really, really cool to me. So I think it's a combination of lots of things. It's lots of things of being really happy in the job I do and loving it, the opportunity of the brand that we've got, and then being inspired by, being inspired by other people that have done a similar thing. Um-
- SSSimon Sinek
Th, th, hold on. Let me go down that rabbit hole for a little bit. Again, I'm going back to sort of what entrepreneurs, young entrepreneurs, sort of what their models are.
- BFBen Francis
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And they're looking at the companies that had the exit. They're looking at the company that-
- BFBen Francis
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... went public. They look at the company that, you know, th- that, that's, that's their model.
- BFBen Francis
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And you're talking about the companies you admire.
- BFBen Francis
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
You know, Cadbury's is, what, 100 years old-
- BFBen Francis
Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... or plus, you know.
- BFBen Francis
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
It's a very old company.
- BFBen Francis
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And they're still making chocolate, you know.
- BFBen Francis
Mm-hmm, yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
That's, that's still their thing.
- BFBen Francis
Yeah.
- 16:24 – 24:17
Separating personal ambition from business needs: bringing in an outside CEO, then returning
- BFBen Francis
Yeah, I don't know. I think it's, I think it's a combination. I think, again, the more I thought about it, even just selfishly in terms of me, I love my, I love the job that I do, and this is, this is all I wanna do. I don't wanna, there's, I've got no ambitions to be doing anything else, and if I wasn't doing this, I would, I would be basically doing something that's very similar to this. I saw a, I saw a video of Mark Zuckerberg the other week, and someone asked him, I think it's quite an old video, someone asked him, you know, "You get loads of money for it. You just sell it. You can go and do something else." And I think his response was, he said that he did a lot of thinking about it, and he, he, he came to the conclusion that if he did sell it, he would just use the money to start something that looks a lot like what he was doing then, or like, a lot like Facebook. And I sort of feel like I'm in a similar position. But I also think there's a level of, if you're building for the long term, or, sorry, do you know what? If you're building anything in general, there's a level of separation that you have to have between your personal ambitions and your, your ambitions for your business.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- BFBen Francis
I think that's two slightly different things.
- SSSimon Sinek
Say more.
- BFBen Francis
Well, so when, and this, I learnt this years ago in my early 20s. The, the business started to grow really quickly, and I very quickly realized that I wasn't the right person to be the CEO and run the business for that period, for that, that specific period of growth. Um, so brought in a CEO called Steve, who did a really, really good job, and that was really great for me, because he would do the CEO job, and I could then go in and spend so much time on brand, on product. I was traveling the world, going to events around the world, spending time in the gyms with the consumer, building product in the factories, working with athletes, brand teams, and marketing teams. And I could do all the bits that I was really good at, but then I could also learn operations and finance and supply chain, and bits that maybe wasn't quite as exciting to me, knowing that I sort of always had that safety blanket or that sort of cover with having a CEO that could then help-... fix any of the problems that I had sort of thing. And I, I always, I liken it to, I could go into the finance department, and I could make a thousand mistakes, and know that between the CFO and Steve as the CEO, they would sort of fix those mistakes. But that meant that I had a period of rapid learning. And I- it's almost like being able to do... If I said, "Simon, you do this exam," and you did it, and you got 50%. And then a week later I said, "I'm gonna give you the same exam, and you can do it again." Then the week later you might get 60%, and then 70%. And you can just keep learning at a, a rate, and have a better output, you know, just 'cause you're doing it over and over again, and there's no consequence of failure with it, within reason.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah, yeah.
- BFBen Francis
So that was important to me, because then I, I quickly learned that even though I have ambition, you know, I'd love to run the company. Everyone wants to run their own company. There's almost, I guess, to a degree, there's nothing worse than not running your own company.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- BFBen Francis
But I realized that because of my ambitions for the business, I wanted the business to succeed more than I wanted to be the CEO.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- BFBen Francis
Then that, that then paid back in dividends, 'cause the business grew far more quickly. I could learn more quickly. I enjoyed my job. Steve enjoyed his job. And, you know, now I moved back into the CEO job three years ago, I think it was, four years ago, and I feel so much more well-equipped to do the job.
- SSSimon Sinek
And, and, and the reason you came back is not because Steve was doing a bad job. The reason you came back is because you got the education you needed to have the job that you wanted, but weren't prepared for.
- BFBen Francis
Correct. Yeah, yeah. So it was that. I, I had learned on the job, which was great. Steve came to me, and he was, his self-awareness was incredible. He said, "I'm... You know, I, I don't wanna run the business at the, you know, at the next scale," or, "I don't feel like it's right for me to run the business at the, at, at the scale that it is now." And he actually said to me... We were work- working away in Hong Kong. I remember he, he said to me, "It's not right for me to run the business at the ne- in the next phase." And I was like, "Oh, God, so who's gonna do it then?" And then he said, um, he was like, "I think you can do it." And I thought, "Oh, God." And I don't, I don't think I really responded. I said... We flew home. I don't know how long the flight is, sort of eight or nine hours or whatever, and then I think it was the next day or two I said, "Do you know what? Yeah, I'm d- I'm gonna do it. I feel... I don't, I'm, I don't necessarily feel ready, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna do it," because, you know, I, it's, I g- it felt like the right time for me to do it.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- BFBen Francis
So I think, again, having real bold ambitions for the business, but then also being really realistic about your own skill set is quite important to me.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- BFBen Francis
Um, and yeah. And then I guess through those years as CEO, I then was thinking what... I sort of then, I s- I started to think more critically about what do I want this brand to be and where do I want it to g- where do I want it to go? And I think, you know, getting a bit older, we've got three kids now, um, you know, everyone wa- everyone wants to be a cool dad, right? And I think there's nothing cooler than building something that really stands the test of time, that the kids can look at and go-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- BFBen Francis
... "Oh, wow, you know, my dad built that," or, you know, "The, the Gymshark team built that."
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- BFBen Francis
And I think that to me, this... I, I don't know. I've just got a real admiration of brands that can really stand the test of time.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- BFBen Francis
There are so many brands that come out of nowhere and explode, and then they disappear. But there are very few that really stand the test of time, and I'd, I'd love for Gymshark to be one of the few that does stand the test.
- SSSimon Sinek
I've met a lot of, um, founder CEOs who did have an exit-
- BFBen Francis
Mm
- SSSimon Sinek
... and they've moved on, and sometimes they start something new, sometimes they don't.
- BFBen Francis
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Um, and their companies, um, whether they're become public or whether they b- get bought by some private equity firm-
- BFBen Francis
Mm
- SSSimon Sinek
... they, the, you know, some of these highly, highly ethical CEOs who built a company to have an impact on the world and, and be- build strong cultures that, you know, are great places to work-
- 24:17 – 30:53
The 100-year lens in practice: narrow the menu, deepen the craft, and win with core customers
- BFBen Francis
I guess product would be the most obvious one. So again, as you grow, it's so easy to get tempted to... And we did this for a bit, right? So we built, we broadened our product range-Massively. And the whole idea is the broader the product range, the more people that you can appe- appeal to, and obviously the bigger you can build the business.
- SSSimon Sinek
And what do you mean by broader product range? Give me an example.
- BFBen Francis
So as an offer, we could offer, uh, sportswear and swimwear and hiking wear and all these different things, and lots of different things that sort of come out and are closely associated to, but not quite the same as gym wear.
- SSSimon Sinek
And people were asking for it, right?
- BFBen Francis
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So if we go on the website, there are lots of searches for a lot of these different things.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- BFBen Francis
But what we've since done is we- we've launched the, the, you know, our, our new sort of campaign, which is We Do Gym, and we've said, "We're just gonna be the best at gym wear, and we're gonna focus solely on building the best gym wear in the world," not by going into all of these different things. And I think going back to some of the big brands is they're, they're really good at what they do. The- there's, you know, uh, Nike are probably the best... Well, they are the best sportswear brand in the world, and we're never ever, ever gonna out-compete them on that. And also, it's not my personal passion. My personal passion always has been the gym. Since I was 16, I fell in love with the gym, and I fell in love with the gym because it was the first thing in my life where I directly got out of it what I put in. And I knew that if I... I went to school, and I'd try really hard at certain subjects, and I'd get terrible grades. I wouldn't try other subjects, and I'd get good grades. And the whole input to output thing just didn't quite make sense to me until I was 16, and I then realized if I go to the gym five days a week, if I, you know, if I'm on the treadmill or if I'm lifting weights, whatever it is, I will get out of that what I put in, put in.
- SSSimon Sinek
It's a one-to-one ratio.
- BFBen Francis
And that's, that's really re- that was really important-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- BFBen Francis
... for me as a, as a moment. So I'm really passionate about the gym. We're really passionate about the gym. So we're gonna fo- focus on the gym. That's it. That's where our consumer is. That's where our product should be designed around. That is our, that's our USP, that's our competitive advantage, and that's what we're really good at. Now, obviously, there's more to it, right? So when the brand was first started, we, um, we'd grown up in the UK. We would buy, um, like, T-shirts, Topman two for 10 pound T-shirts, which was the thing.
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- BFBen Francis
So two T-shirts for 10 pound was amazing, so affordability's really important for us.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- BFBen Francis
Because when you're joining the gym, you don't wanna be spending loads of money on really expensive stuff.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- BFBen Francis
You want really good quality, um, and you want it to perform, but equally you don't wanna have to pay loads and loads of money. So affordability's really important for us.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- BFBen Francis
We have to build affordable product for our consumer, and it has to be the best gym wear in the world. And if we do those three things, everything else then tends to fall into place-
- SSSimon Sinek
Right
- BFBen Francis
... as long as we're thoughtful about our business.
- SSSimon Sinek
So you were tempted to go in all these directions, swimwear, hiking-
- BFBen Francis
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... all of these things.
- BFBen Francis
So we said, "No, we're just gonna focus on-"
- SSSimon Sinek
So, but... And you said, but you did try those things, right?
- BFBen Francis
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
You did start-
- BFBen Francis
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... expanding your product line.
- 30:53 – 34:57
Hiring for decades, not years: building careers and investing in in-house capability
- BFBen Francis
But then the, I guess the second order con- consequences of that are, or looking to build a hundred-year brand, is then the people that are involved in Gymshark are really focused on that. And then when you think about hiring, if you're hiring for a short-term goal, if we're hiring just to get to X by three years, then you'll hire, you're... I, I found that you're far more likely to hire externally, and you'll always then bias towards have they done it before. I need someone that's done what I wanna do before externally. Hire them in. Can you do what you did there here? When I think about building a hundred-year brand, I don't want people to come in, particularly, you know, into leadership or senior teams, I don't want people to come in for three years, do what they've done somewhere else, to do it here. I want people to join for 10, 20, 30 years. I want people to build a career here and to be really focused around the long term of the business and to really put the business first, rather than just this be a stepping stone on, in their career. So you've got product effects, you've got sort of hiring effects. So then if you think about our brand, the We Do Gym campaign is perfect. It's three words, but it says exactly what Gymshark is.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yes. It's on the tin, yeah.
- BFBen Francis
It's all about the gym. And then for us then, it's not about we do gym, we do this, we do that. It's literally we do gym, and we wanna land that message-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- BFBen Francis
... as regularly as possible-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- BFBen Francis
... so that it's really clear as to what we are.
- SSSimon Sinek
But going back to the hiring practices, right? A- and again, you know, we're having a problem in X.
- BFBen Francis
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
I'm gonna hire somebody who's done this before.
- BFBen Francis
Okay.
- SSSimon Sinek
I, I've made this mistake.
- BFBen Francis
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
I've hired somebody who's done it before. They come into our culture, and I'm like, "Okay-
- BFBen Francis
Mm
- SSSimon Sinek
... you've done it. Please do it," and it, it rarely works well-
- BFBen Francis
Mm
- SSSimon Sinek
... because they try and force us to do things the way their old company did it, not, you know.
- BFBen Francis
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Or, or the, the... There's an insecurity, right?
- BFBen Francis
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Because their whole sense of self-worth is I have to repeat that.
- BFBen Francis
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
And their desire to push their boundaries, do things differently, cha- challenge themselves, throw out the playbook-
- BFBen Francis
Mm
- SSSimon Sinek
... is dramatically reduced-
- BFBen Francis
Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... because they have to repeat their success.
- BFBen Francis
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
But their success is the past. There's a great story. You might appreciate this. I w- I got a tour of Apple for... an Apple historian took me around.
- 34:57 – 36:49
Profitability without short-term obsession: forecasts vs. fundamentals
- SSSimon Sinek
Clearly you have financial goals.
- BFBen Francis
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
I mean, you're a sophisticated company.
- BFBen Francis
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
If you've missed that financial goal but you're profitable, are you happy or are you angry?
- BFBen Francis
I think it depends. Um, again, in the last few years, because we've been changing our strategy and the way that we wanna approach things, I, I think if, if we moved in the right d- right direction, which we absolutely are, then I'd be happy. I think it's really important to me to remember that forecasts are forecasts. Forecasts are a, you know, it's a best guess at where you're gonna be generally at the start of the financial year, and we'll reforecast as we go through the year. The important thing for me is did we stick to doing what we said we were gonna do in the really important parts of our business that matter. So did we continue to nail that We Do Gym campaign? Did we continue to really invest into our product in the right way? Um, you know, is the shape of our business where we want it to be? Have we had that really nice, incredible new product development which we're really proud of? Those are the things that really matter. Now, what you can't do is then just completely alienate yourself from all financial results because that, that would not build a 100-year long-term sustainable business.
- SSSimon Sinek
Sure.
- BFBen Francis
I think by definition to be a long-term 100-year business, you have to be profitable 'cause profitability allows you to invest in the long term of the business, but it also insulates you from all of the inevitable macroeconomic surprises that will come up.
- SSSimon Sinek
But in the, in the, in that infinite-minded 100-year m- mindset, and based on the advice or, or the question from your grandfather-
- BFBen Francis
Mm
- SSSimon Sinek
... so long as you're building the business the way you wanna build it, so long as you're following your values-
- BFBen Francis
Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... you're sticking to your core-
- BFBen Francis
Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... so long as that purity remains-
- BFBen Francis
Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... if you miss that projection, but everything's going in the right direction, you're not angry. You're fine.
- BFBen Francis
As long as we can continue to fund our own growth, build the business, yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- BFBen Francis
I wouldn't... So, so if the profitability, ability dropped too low-
- SSSimon Sinek
So when your granddad says, "Did you make money?" and you say, "Yes"-
- BFBen Francis
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... to some degree, you are okay with that.
- BFBen Francis
I'm happy, yeah.
- 36:49 – 42:27
Culture on the walls: blunt values, humility, and a cautionary US expansion mistake
- SSSimon Sinek
The, going back to, um, there's a, I don't wanna call it an irreverence, 'cause I don't think it is irreverent. There's an honesty-
- BFBen Francis
Mm
- SSSimon Sinek
... that I see on the walls here.
- BFBen Francis
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
I mean, um, I always think a lot of companies waste space in their offices-
- BFBen Francis
Mm
- SSSimon Sinek
... because they have all this magical space, and they don't use, they don't remind everybody why they're here.
- BFBen Francis
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
There are words all over your office that remind-
- BFBen Francis
Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... people why they're here.
- BFBen Francis
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Both your values, and just these nice sort of-
- BFBen Francis
Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... reminders. But they're not, they're not sweet.
- BFBen Francis
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
You know? Um, they're reminding people, take care of the people in the gym.
- BFBen Francis
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
You know, uh, one of them says, "Give a shit."
- BFBen Francis
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
It's one of your values.
- BFBen Francis
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
It's just very honest, and it's written, there's no asterisks.
- BFBen Francis
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
It says, "Give a shit," on the wall. In fact, right behind us, I love this one. Right behind us, you can't see it.
- BFBen Francis
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
It says on the wall, it's the only thing written on the wall, in big letters, it says, "Don't be a dickhead."
- BFBen Francis
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Um, and it's reminding everybody-
- BFBen Francis
Mm-hmm
- 42:27 – 49:20
Mentors and “winging it” the right way: foundation-first experimentation
- SSSimon Sinek
Are there entrepreneurs now that you sort of, I won't say model yourself after-
- BFBen Francis
Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... but you look to and be like, "I, I, I," you know, formal and informal mentors?
- BFBen Francis
Well, I'll always, obviously, my grandad. My grandad, when he started his business, he, he basically had to risk everything, and he had two kids, my mom and, uh, her sister. Her sister has, um, my auntie has learning difficulties, so there's a level of cost, uh, with her care.Uh, my granddad was working in factories, BSA factories in the Midlands and things like that, so he took a massive risk to start his business. It was actually that... It was hearing as a kid about the risks that he took that made it so easy for me to start businesses when I was a kid, 'cause he was telling me about all these massive risk, and he had to look after my nan and the kids. And when I'm 18 and I didn't have to take... I had no one that I had to worry about really other than myself, that made it... That really made me realize the opportunity I had to take risks. So I definitely learnt sort of risk-taking from him. Obviously, my parents have been... I've got incr- I've just got such an amazing family. My mom and dad are incredible as well, and I learnt so much from them. My mom worked in the NHS her entire life, one of the most hard-working people-
- SSSimon Sinek
National, National Healthcare
- BFBen Francis
... National Healthcare.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- BFBen Francis
So she's, she was a, a nurse, ca- uh, cor- coronary care, so a heart nurse. Again, my dad, incredibly hard-working and incredibly... Just mental strength like nothing I've ever seen before. Um, but then in, more in terms of industry, um, so there's a guy who lives in London called Ajaz Ahmed, and he actually founded a company called AKQA, which is a... Basically, it was a big marketing agency. He's, um, he's st- since started a, another agency since, and I learnt a lot from him, and he's so brand first.
- SSSimon Sinek
What did you learn from him?
- BFBen Francis
I learnt... I remember we, um, we were doing our first ever restructure of the business, and I remember it was killing me. It was absolutely killing me, the thought of, um, people losing their jobs and having to restructure our business. And, and it was the right decision in the more appropriate way for the, the sort of post-COVID market that it was at the time. And I remember we went out for food one day, and I was like, "Ajaz, I d- like, come on, help me out here. Have you ever done this before?" And he, he... And he's the kindest bloke you'll ever meet, and he just gave me some advice, and he said, "Just, just make sure that you do things in the right way. You know, just make sure you do it in the right way." Um, and he actually told me that he'd done a similar thing earlier in his career, and it was the best thing that he'd ever done, and it really helped his business then to grow. Because the way that he described it to me was around your business needs to move as quickly as the market, and you're in a market that's constantly moving. If you're slower than the market, then obviously things are gonna get away from you, and you won't be able to effectively serve your consumer. And he also was constantly talking about building long-term brands. Being in an agency role, he's seen great brands, he's seen not great brands, um, and he sort of really has an enthusiasm for brand that a lot of people don't, and I think a respect for brand that a lot of people don't. So speaking to him and learning about pushing through the hard times, doing things in the right way, and really focusing on the long term was really important to me. Um, so I definitely learnt a lot from Ajaz. Um, Harley and Toby at Shopify, I haven't seen them in a, in a while, but again, just listening to the way that they think about business is incredible-
- SSSimon Sinek
What did you learn from them?
- BFBen Francis
I learnt... It was really funny actually. So years and years ago, they did a competition, and we won the competition 'cause we were one of the faster-growing businesses on Shopify, particularly in the early days. And they flew us out to New York to see the stock exchange. That was the first ever media training I had. It was the scariest thing I've ever done. And then we went out to Fiji, um, and we were sat around loads of incredibly successful entrepreneurs. Obviously, Toby and Harley that were there. There was, um, Tony Robbins, and there was a, a handful of other people. Um, there was the guy from Airbnb. There was, uh, Tim Ferriss, I think, was there. And I'm just sat looking at all these people thinking, "I've seen you on, like, YouTube on the internet, but I can't believe I'm seeing you in real life." And then I d- wasn't really saying anything, I was just listening. And then, um, I think someone said, someone said, "Oh, have you got..." He was talking to someone else, and they were like, "Oh, do you have a plan for that?" And he said, "No, I'm just winging it." And then someone else went, "Yeah, I'm just winging it, too." And I remember looking around thinking, "You guys are running businesses that are probably bigger than our business will ever be, and if you're just winging it, then that makes me feel so much better about myself 'cause I feel like I'm just winging it." And I'm just looking at all these people, and I had this moment of realization thinking, "If you're winging it, I'm probably always gonna be winging it." And then it made me realize that I don't have to feel like I've always got everything together. There was a recognition around the table that everyone's doing a lot of things for the first time, and there's a level of comfort that then that gave me that I don't always have to have everything together. I can explore new ideas, and I can fail at things, and it's not defining of me or nor the business. W- And then we can... Equally, when you do succeed, that's not defining. It doesn't mean you're always gonna be successful. There's this real nice feeling I had where it was almost like pressure off from this moment. I'm doing a lot of things for the first time, and I'm just gonna try my best to do it right, and I'm gonna, uh, build a business that I'm proud of.
- SSSimon Sinek
As you're talking about it, you know, I'm realizing there's two types of winging it.
- BFBen Francis
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And this is... And again, I'm gonna sound like a broken record, which is there's a reason I admire the purity of your business, which is it is a... The foundation is so strong, the values are so strong, the clarity of who we are, what we do, and who we serve is so strong-
- BFBen Francis
Mm
- SSSimon Sinek
... that I think when you have strong foundation-
- BFBen Francis
Mm
- SSSimon Sinek
... strong values-
- BFBen Francis
Mm
- SSSimon Sinek
... then you can wing it.
- BFBen Francis
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Because it's based on s- it's not... It's based on something down here.
- BFBen Francis
Not on quicksand, it's-
- SSSimon Sinek
You know?
- BFBen Francis
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
It's based on something down here. And so you're, you're, you're making these decisions, but it's coming-
- BFBen Francis
Mm
- SSSimon Sinek
... it's born out of something, and there's a, and there's a code-
- BFBen Francis
Mm-hmm
- 49:20 – 56:19
Knowing the customer (even when it excludes you): physique-accentuating product and inclusive gym community
- BFBen Francis
Whereas now when we're really... It's funny. Uh, my, my mom went to a- we got a shop in London on Regent Street. My brother took my mom to the shop a few months ago, and they, uh, he said they got to the end, and Mom went, um, "Do you know what, Joe? I'm not, I'm not really a fan of a lot of the product that you're making at the moment."
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- BFBen Francis
And Joe went, "Too right. You're 50 some- 50-something years old, and you've never, you haven't been to the gym in 20 years."
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- BFBen Francis
And it was a bit, it was a bit of a funny moment where he sort of told my mom. And it was like-
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- BFBen Francis
... that, that, that's right.
- SSSimon Sinek
That's right.
- BFBen Francis
You know, the, the, our customer goes to the gym all the time. They're in their early 20s, and they wanna wear product to show off their physique. We're not building product for my 55-year-old mom-
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- BFBen Francis
... who was a nurse in Telly Oke.
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- BFBen Francis
Do you know what I mean? So it was quite, that was quite a funny moment. I was quite proud of him because it was a bit like, yeah, this is, this is who we are, and this is what we stand for. And I know that's a, you know, a funny sort of extreme example, but that, that's, that's what we have to continue to build our business on.
- SSSimon Sinek
You know, there's a, there's an irony in your brand, and the irony is, is a lot of your clothes, as you said, are made to show off.
- BFBen Francis
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Like, your T-shirt that you said-
- BFBen Francis
Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... that's-
- BFBen Francis
Physique-accentuating, yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... is a v- physique-accentuated. It's tight. Let me show you-
- BFBen Francis
Mm
- SSSimon Sinek
... the result of all my m- my hard work.
- BFBen Francis
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
You know, h- I, I've, I've bought your stuff and sized up-
- BFBen Francis
Mm
- SSSimon Sinek
... because it's too tight. [laughs]
- BFBen Francis
Mm-hmm. [laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
Uh, but that's what it's supposed to be. Um, uh, you know, v- you can, degrees of how much your bum you want accentuated, you know?
- BFBen Francis
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
I, I mean, like, it's all about showing off-
- 56:19 – 1:01:13
Time, family-first boundaries, and closing reflections on building for the long term
- SSSimon Sinek
What's your approach to managing your time so that you get the most out of your professional and personal life?
- BFBen Francis
Ooh, this has changed. So this has changed a, a lot since we had kids. So before, I would just work all the time, and fly whenever, go anywhere at a moment's notice. Um, my wife said to me, since we had kids, she was like, "I want you home on the weekends." And it's really important to me that I am, 'cause I just love being with the kids and being at home with the family and, and Robyn. Um, so within, generally I'll be at home on the weekends, and that, again, that's important for me to protect. In the week, I generally really try and focus my time around, uh, product and, uh, essentially the, the direct sort of team that I, I work with. Um, I also just love going... Something I love to do more than anything is just to go to loads of different gyms. So if I'm in New York, I'll just try different gyms, 'cause you end up just chatting to people all the time, and you end up learning something that you would never, ever normally pick up. And again, quite fortunate now doing, I guess doing the job I do, 'cause sort of people come up to me as often as I'll come up to them. But I absolutely love that. But no, generally I'll focus my time around obviously being in the office every day. I, I am not the sort of person that I could ev- could ever work from home. Um, but generally it'll be around being with the team and, and focusing on the product.
- SSSimon Sinek
But, and, and when you're at home on the weekends, you're not at home just working. You're at home with the family.
- BFBen Francis
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I will avoid work at all costs on the weekend if I can.
- SSSimon Sinek
Love. Um, one of the things that's interesting is, um, uh, you have on the wall-
- BFBen Francis
Mm
- SSSimon Sinek
... uh, family first-
- BFBen Francis
Mm
- SSSimon Sinek
... as one of the values. What can people who are not running companies-
- BFBen Francis
Mm
- SSSimon Sinek
... do to, to have an impact on the world, but still make sure that they're providing for their loved ones? Like, how do you strike that balance? Because at some point s- one of those things has to get sacrificed.
- BFBen Francis
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right? People who make an impact, as you said-
- BFBen Francis
Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... aren't necessarily at home all the time.
- BFBen Francis
Yeah. How do you... Well, I think the-
- SSSimon Sinek
What, what, what can the rest of us do? Do you have to pick one?
- BFBen Francis
I mean, I don't know. I think the thing that I've, I've noticed, and this is both with myself but also with friends and colleagues, is if you do a job that you really, really enjoy, you genuinely enjoy, I think you'll often be better at it, and then I think you'll be happier, happier in your general life. And even if you have to w- there's periods, I think, where you have to work more. There's periods where you can probably get away with working a little bit less. And I know it sounds cliche, but I do think focusing on what you love. I've got friends that, that... I've got a friend, actually, who moved on from here not too long ago. Uh, he wor- he was one of the first employees who worked here for about 10 years, and he just sort of ran out of mojo. He sort of, we were chatting, he wasn't really enjoying the job as much as he was, and he sort of wanted to be here 'cause he always was, but then he sort of didn't 'cause there's a load of other things he wanted to... He wanted to travel, and he wanted to do work abroad and stuff. And we were just sat there, and we said, um, "Just go off and do it. Just go off and do it, and you can always come back. You know, if you don't, if you go off and you go and work in Spain for a bit and you don't like it, you can always come back." And, and that's what he's done, and he seems so happy. He's loving it, and it's, it's really nice to see. So it's, it's an interesting thing for me, where it's the difference in him in making that decision. He's just like a different person. He seems so excited and happy and that, you know, I've got lots of other friends. And don't get me wrong, I'd rather a, a lot of them have not left. I'd ra- I'd much rather them just be with me and stay here, 'cause we're friends and I love being with them. Focusing on what they love is really important. And then there's he- people that have been here for 10, 11, 12 years, literally since day one, that love it just as much, if not more than they did. And I think for me, doing what you love is really important. Um, I think to... It's interesting because w- we and I have had some highs at this business that are incredible. Being the fastest-growing company in the UK, some of the global events that we've done, some of the incredible things that we've done out in the US. Um, and they're genuinely incredible achievements that I'm so proud of. But then when you get home, and one of your kids runs up to you and gives you a massive hug, and he's happy that you're home, it trumps all of them.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- BFBen Francis
So I think it's also worth remembering that as well.
- SSSimon Sinek
Ben, it's such a treat for me to sit down with you. I could talk to you forever, and, you know, this is the second time we've hung out, and-
- BFBen Francis
Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... I've learned from you more this time even than last time. Um, I, I really, really am rooting for you 'cause I think how you're building your business is the way all businesses should be built from now on.
- BFBen Francis
Thank you.
- SSSimon Sinek
Thanks, man.
- BFBen Francis
Appreciate it.
- SSSimon Sinek
Really appreciate it.
- BFBen Francis
Thanks for coming.
- SSSimon Sinek
So good. A Bit of Optimism is brought to you by The Optimism Company and is lovingly produced by our team, Lindsay Garbinus and Devon Johnson. If I was able to give you any kind of insight or some inspiration or made you smile, please subscribe wherever you enjoy listening to podcasts for more. And if you're trying to get answers to a problem at work or want to advance a dream, maybe I can help. Simply go to simonsinek.com. Until then, take care of yourself, take care of each other. [outro music]
Episode duration: 1:01:14
Install uListen for AI-powered chat & search across the full episode — Get Full Transcript
Transcript of episode nnlscgLF3PE
