The Search for Self-Love with podcaster Lewis Howes | A Bit of Optimism Podcast

Simon Sinek 0:00 When someone feels guilt or shame about their financial situation, what is the first step to address those negative feelings and start fixing the problem?

Lewis Howes 0:11 [sighs] I'm gonna say something you're not gonna like.

Simon Sinek 0:13 Why do you, why like-

Lewis Howes 0:14 Because I'm speaking in words and terminology that-

Simon Sinek 0:17 As long as you don't say, "Find your bliss"-

Lewis Howes 0:19 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 0:20 ... I'm pretty much gonna be all in for anything.

Lewis Howes 0:21 Love yourself. Um-

Simon Sinek 0:23 Loving yourself is fine.

Lewis Howes 0:25 Yeah, yeah.

Simon Sinek 0:25 Have you ever had that thought flash through your brain, "Do people really like me? I mean, sure, they laugh at my jokes, but do they really like me?" Or, "Why haven't they texted me back? I mean, damn it, I knew I shouldn't have worded that last text the way I did." What do we do to make sure we don't fall into a spiral of self-doubt? The self-help world may have some answers, but too often it can get a little woo-woo and not, well, that helpful. That's why I sat down with Lewis Howes, former pro athlete, bestselling author, and host of the podcast The School of Greatness, to get actionable. We unpacked our insecurities and so much more. How can we all get to the place where we can say to ourselves, truly, "I really love myself"? This is A Bit of Optimism. [upbeat music] What was your question?

Lewis Howes 1:25 What's the, the biggest challenge you're facing emotionally or mentally right now?

Simon Sinek 1:29 Okay.

Lewis Howes 1:30 In your life.

Simon Sinek 1:31 So Lewis, what's the biggest challenge you're facing-

Lewis Howes 1:33 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 1:33 ... emotionally or mentally right now?

Lewis Howes 1:36 Are we rolling? [laughs]

Simon Sinek 1:38 [laughs] Yeah, sure.

Lewis Howes 1:39 Okay. Um, it's continuing to learn to say no to a lot a- and being okay with not doing everything. And for me, it's like there's so many ways that I could do things or make money or that are exciting, and reminding myself to just say no and wait until it really feels aligned.

Simon Sinek 1:59 If you're trying to learn to say no better, why were you saying yes before?

Lewis Howes 2:06 Scarcity.

Simon Sinek 2:07 Scarcity mindset?

Lewis Howes 2:08 Yeah. Needing validation and feeling scarce, like I don't have everything I need, so I need to go say yes to every project, everything, be everywhere, travel, accomplish, accomplish, so that I can feel more worthy and deserving and feel like I've got something saved up as well.

Simon Sinek 2:26 So are you saying no now because now you have an abundance mindset? Are you saying no now because you have enough?

Lewis Howes 2:31 I like validation, if I'm being honest, but I don't need it a- as much. It's not that I don't need it. I still enjoy validation, but I'm not creating to get validation.

Simon Sinek 2:42 So when you talk about validation, you're talking about likes on a post, size of an audience?

Lewis Howes 2:45 People telling you you're amazing or, "I like this thing," or whatever. Like, for example, yesterday I was at, uh, having breakfast after a workout with my, my business partner, and we were having breakfast, and I noticed someone was, like, kind of looking over at us from the side of the restaurant. I was like, "Ah, I don't know, maybe they know who I am, maybe not," but they were just kind of, like, smiling and looking over. I was like, "Ah," and nodding. And then [clears throat] I asked for the check, and they had just left, and the, the waiter came up and said, "Oh, they just paid for your meal. They're big fans." And I just thought, "That's really kind. That's really generous. That's really nice." It's a nice little validation. It's not like I was looking for that to happen.

Simon Sinek 3:19 Sure.

Lewis Howes 3:19 And I went out and I said thank you to them. I'm not just gonna let them run away.

Simon Sinek 3:23 Sure.

Lewis Howes 3:23 But, um, it's not needing validation. I feel really peaceful with where I'm at, and I think it's because for 15, 20 years, I drove my goals towards accomplishing so that people could see me-

Simon Sinek 3:40 Right

Lewis Howes 3:40 ... and validate me and feel filled up from other people.

Simon Sinek 3:43 Right.

Lewis Howes 3:44 And I've said no to a lot of people, and I've kind of cut relationships. Not, cut is a bad word, but I've, I've just have less strong relationships 'cause I don't need to have everyone to like me anymore.

Simon Sinek 3:55 Okay. So let's, let's, let's unpack this a little bit.

Lewis Howes 3:58 And I just got married, and so I'm like-

Simon Sinek 3:59 Yes, congratulations

Lewis Howes 4:00 ... and I'm investing in that relationship and a few key relationships to give me what I need, really, as opposed to, "Let me succeed at everything and have everyone in the world love me." And I think I've gotten to the point over the last 12 years of kind of being on this healing journey and just reflection journey while taking extreme actions on accomplishing and achieving goals and building business and driving and saying yes to everything, [lips smack] I'm getting to a point where I feel like I am enough with where I'm at right now. Now, it doesn't mean I don't wanna go create more.

Simon Sinek 4:32 Wait, wait, wait, wait. I am enough with what I have now?

Lewis Howes 4:37 No, with who, with what I've created and who I am right now.

Simon Sinek 4:40 Okay, what I've created and who I am are not the same thing.

Lewis Howes 4:42 With what I've created, I feel like I am enough, but it's not n- necessarily an external thing. It's more like how I've created myself.

Simon Sinek 4:50 Okay. Okay.

Lewis Howes 4:51 I feel like I am enough now.

Simon Sinek 4:52 Okay.

Lewis Howes 4:53 But it doesn't mean I don't have goals and dreams that I wanna go pursue and accomplish.

Simon Sinek 4:57 So you said you've been on a 12-year healing journey.

Lewis Howes 4:59 Yes.

Simon Sinek 4:59 Healing from what?

Lewis Howes 5:01 The demons inside of me that have driven me to be a accomplishing machine. Um, the, the triggers and the traumas that have made me say horrible things about myself to myself, the triggers and traumas that have cultivated me into just living a life where I don't feel peace. And I've tried to unwind and unpack all those things over the last 12 years, really when I started School of Greatness, by interviewing people like you, therapists, other people, and then doing tons of just inner work, therapeutic work, to find out how to create wholeness within me emotionally, spiritually.

Simon Sinek 5:41 Your demons drove you to accomplish?

Lewis Howes 5:43 I think so, yeah.

Simon Sinek 5:44 Say more.

Lewis Howes 5:46 I never felt enough.

Simon Sinek 5:47 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 5:48 And I always felt abused and, and taken advantage of. I was sexually abused when I was five years old by a man that I didn't know. I've talked about this many times publicly, but that story, that wound, drove me unconsciously, and probably consciously, for 25 years of my life until I started to talk about it and started the process and heal it when I hit about 30 years old, [clears throat] 12 years ago. And-All I wanted to do was accomplish, to kind of run away from the pain, run away from the wound-

Simon Sinek 6:18 Mm

Lewis Howes 6:19 ... and feel worthy and deserving and enough.

Simon Sinek 6:22 Mm.

Lewis Howes 6:22 'Cause I never felt enough, 'cause I felt like if I was enough, why would someone sexually abuse me?

Simon Sinek 6:27 Mm.

Lewis Howes 6:28 Why would these kids pick on me? Why would they pick me last on the sports playground? Why would they steal money from me? Why would they li- all these things. And so I didn't feel enough, so I had to go prove-

Simon Sinek 6:39 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 6:39 ... to others who picked on me that I was worthy and I was enough. And I don't think it was consciously like, "I'm gonna go prove this," but it was-

Simon Sinek 6:46 Mm

Lewis Howes 6:46 ... it was the story that was driving me. And those wounds, those triggers, those traumas guided me. And some beautiful things came out of it, right? It's like I was able to accomplish, I became financially free, I got off my sister's couch that I was living on for a year and a half. It drove me to figure things out, to overcome fears, to accomplish things, to get on my own two feet, per se. But what I realized when I hit 30, that I had accomplished all these things but still didn't feel enough.

Simon Sinek 7:16 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 7:16 So what's the point of having the everything that other people want and not loving yourself and still feeling all the pain inside?

Simon Sinek 7:23 So if I accomplish these things, then I'll feel worthy.

Lewis Howes 7:25 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 7:25 That's a very powerful driver, right? It makes sense why you would become a professional athlete.

Lewis Howes 7:29 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 7:29 It makes sense why you would be a very successful entrepreneur. Because if I, if I just hit, win this medal-

Lewis Howes 7:36 Yeah

Simon Sinek 7:36 ... win this co- competition-

Lewis Howes 7:37 Solve all my problems

Simon Sinek 7:38 ... you know, if I just make the money-

Lewis Howes 7:39 Uh-huh

Simon Sinek 7:39 ... then that feeling of I'm not enough will finally go away.

Lewis Howes 7:43 Yes.

Simon Sinek 7:43 Which totally makes sense as an internal driver, and then you accomplish it all and the feeling doesn't show up.

Lewis Howes 7:49 Yeah. Then now what?

Simon Sinek 7:51 And now what?

Lewis Howes 7:51 I worked my whole life for this, and these goals are happening, and now I've got money in the bank, and I've got this relationship, but why am I unhappy? So for me, it was a big wake-up call at 30, that I was like, "Okay, all the things that I thought would make me happy are not making me happy."

Simon Sinek 8:06 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 8:07 "And so I need to go figure out what that is." And it took a while.

Simon Sinek 8:12 Are you happy now?

Lewis Howes 8:12 Very happy.

Simon Sinek 8:14 How-

Lewis Howes 8:14 It doesn't mean I'm not, I don't have moments of stress-

Simon Sinek 8:16 Of course

Lewis Howes 8:17 ... and chaos and, you know, sadness.

Simon Sinek 8:19 But you like yourself now.

Lewis Howes 8:20 I, love is a strong word, but I love the man I'm becoming. Because on a daily basis, I really try to re-correct my thinking, uh, my words, my intentions towards what is in alignment with my values. I mean, I don't know, it just sounds weird. I love myself, but I really-

Simon Sinek 8:39 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 8:39 ... I really love and appreciate that I am showing up for me and essentially saying, "I am the, the hero that my younger child always wished he had." Like, I'm the adult in the room that's like s- taking care of the little boy who felt lost, insecure, taken advantage of-

Simon Sinek 8:59 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 8:59 ... unsure of himself, doubting himself. Like, I'm doing the things that I wish I could have done back then.

Simon Sinek 9:06 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 9:07 And kind of like creating this wholeness within me-

Simon Sinek 9:10 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 9:10 ... where I'm feeling more at peace.

Simon Sinek 9:12 Mm-hmm. What do you tell your friends who are on a similar journey, who are trying to find the I l- I'm, I like myself or, you know what, the amount of followers I have or the amount of money I have-

Lewis Howes 9:30 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 9:30 ... is not correlated to my w- my self-worth?

Lewis Howes 9:32 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 9:33 My m-

Lewis Howes 9:33 Or my net worth is not my self-worth.

Simon Sinek 9:35 Well, me. Yeah.

Lewis Howes 9:35 Well, what was the thing I asked you when we sat down and I connected with you? When we sat down today, what was the first thing I asked you?

Simon Sinek 9:42 What am I grateful for?

Lewis Howes 9:43 Uh-huh.

Simon Sinek 9:44 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 9:44 And then I said, "What's the biggest challenge you're going through, uh, mentally and emotionally in your life right now?"

Simon Sinek 9:47 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 9:49 For me, it's just trying to ask questions to just see how people are feeling and how they're thinking, and where their head space and heart space is at. And I do it with as many people as I can. It's not like I'm perfect every day with this, but the people I care about or people in my life, I try to just listen.

Simon Sinek 10:03 Mm.

Lewis Howes 10:03 And then you learn a lot by how people respond to specific questions.

Simon Sinek 10:06 Mm. For example?

Lewis Howes 10:09 What are you grateful for?

Simon Sinek 10:10 And they-

Lewis Howes 10:10 A simple question.

Simon Sinek 10:11 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 10:11 You know, and you're, you said, "I'm grateful that I'm taking back control of my company and I'm getting in founder mode, and I'm really excited." And you have this e- you shifted into this childlike energy.

Simon Sinek 10:19 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 10:20 And I was like, "That's cool." Whereas I've seen you in the past before where you're like, "Oh, just this struggle and this thing and this. I've got too much going on." And it's like, you can... I'm reading the energy that you're expressing.

Simon Sinek 10:30 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 10:30 Not really what you're saying-

Simon Sinek 10:31 Yeah

Lewis Howes 10:31 ... but more the joy. And I'm like, "Oh, great, you're on the right path."

Simon Sinek 10:35 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 10:35 It doesn't mean you're gonna have it all figured out, but it's like, okay, cool. And then I followed up with, "What, what are you struggling with emotionally or mentally right now, personally, professionally, whatever it might be."

Simon Sinek 10:44 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 10:44 And you didn't answer it. You just asked me it 'cause we started.

Simon Sinek 10:47 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 10:47 So I didn't get to see what's going on. But I think these, these line of questioning people, not in a negative way, but in just a curious way, I think is a great way you can connect with friends, family, colleagues, business people, whatever, to help just nudge them on a path to supporting people.

Simon Sinek 11:04 Mm.

Lewis Howes 11:04 I think that's what we all want.

Simon Sinek 11:05 Mm.

Lewis Howes 11:06 That's what, you know, our teams want, this is what our friends want, this is what our family wants from us. But they want us to listen.

Simon Sinek 11:13 Yeah. Ain't that the truth? What we're talking about is doing real work on yourself, re-understanding your own perception of self and the world in which you operate, that you can take actual, real, tangible steps to find calm, self-love, inspiration, joy, opposite of loneliness. And those are the things that I think you and I, especially for what we do in writing books and giving talks and all of these things and podcasts, I think we have a responsibility to translate the woo woo. Look, you and I live in Los Angeles.

Lewis Howes 11:45 Yes. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 11:45 I know a lot of people who do the woo woo thing. They say all the words, they have no idea what they're talking about.

Lewis Howes 11:50 And they're a mess, yeah.

Simon Sinek 11:50 Right? And it's an absolute performative nonsense.

Lewis Howes 11:54 Yes.

Simon Sinek 11:54 Right? I think we have a responsibility to translate this stuff so that more people can find that feeling that you are finding.

Lewis Howes 12:03 Mm-hmm. Yeah, and it's not, it's not, it's not 24/7 I have this, like-

Simon Sinek 12:07 No

Lewis Howes 12:07 ... feeling, but it's a constant practice daily.

Simon Sinek 12:10 Right. This is really interesting to me, 'cause I'm on the same journey, right? And I wanna know what to do on Monday.

Lewis Howes 12:16 Yes.

Simon Sinek 12:16 Right? Somebody says, "Have a gratitude practice."

Lewis Howes 12:19 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 12:20 Okay?Okay, I tried it. And-

Lewis Howes 12:24 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 12:25 [laughs] I, I'm not... It's, it's a good thing.

Lewis Howes 12:27 Uh-huh.

Simon Sinek 12:28 I believe in gratitude.

Lewis Howes 12:29 Yes.

Simon Sinek 12:29 Right? But to have a gratitude practice where you sit down and write every morning-

Lewis Howes 12:33 Mm

Simon Sinek 12:33 ... what you're grateful for, and after most of it, not every day, but almost every day was like, "Uh, my sister, uh, my family-"

Lewis Howes 12:43 Yeah

Simon Sinek 12:44 ... uh, my amazing team. Uh, love my cat."

Lewis Howes 12:48 Yeah. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 12:49 "I'm grateful for the life I live." And, like, every now and then I'd get something new in there, but, like, every day I struggled to find something new besides the same four or five things.

Lewis Howes 12:57 Why, why does it have to be new? Why does it have to be new?

Simon Sinek 12:59 Okay. Well, that's... So is that enough to simply say I'm grateful for my sister-

Lewis Howes 13:02 I mean-

Simon Sinek 13:02 ... my family, my team, my cat?

Lewis Howes 13:03 Yes. I think it's the practice of gratitude is the enough-ness. It's not about let me find 20 things every day and find new things. I think it's the, just the art of gratitude practice daily for a few moments. It doesn't have to be like, let me get into a Zen meditative state for 60 minutes.

Simon Sinek 13:21 So let me go... You don't need a gratitude journal.

Lewis Howes 13:23 Yeah, exactly. I don't need any of that.

Simon Sinek 13:23 You can if you like. I mean, if you're in... You know.

Lewis Howes 13:25 For me, it's just three things at the night. With me, now I get to say wife. I just got married a few weeks ago, and it's been so weird to go from girlfriend to fiance to wife and saying those words. But for years, since we got together, it's what are just three things? What are three things you're grateful for? And I say the same, or say my three things as well. I like doing that when I go to sleep. It just helps me get more peaceful. It just helps me, like, calm down my mind from stress. It's just hard to be grateful and angry at the same time. I just think it's challenging-

Simon Sinek 13:53 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 13:53 ... to do those two things. So it just flips you into a more restful state. And I think, uh, gratitude is the gateway to abundance, even though those words may seem like woo-woo-y to you. But I just truly believe, like, the more grateful that I am, I feel like I can receive more-

Simon Sinek 14:10 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 14:10 ... as well. And if you don't... If you think gratitude is woo-woo and it doesn't work for you, cool. Don't do it. Be generous instead. Get out of self, self-loathing, self-pities, self-doubt, and get into service to someone else.

Simon Sinek 14:23 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 14:24 These may not be the tactical, analytical, in- intelligence, you know, words that people listening or watching may be thinking about, where they need some productivity hacks or something. I'm a simple guy, and I don't understand those words.

Simon Sinek 14:39 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 14:39 I don't understand that language.

Simon Sinek 14:40 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 14:41 But I understand reading people-

Simon Sinek 14:42 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 14:42 ... and just saying, "Are you stressed, or do you seem like you're living in joy?"

Simon Sinek 14:45 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 14:46 And I would believe to say everyone watching and listening wants less stress-

Simon Sinek 14:51 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 14:51 ... and more joy.

Simon Sinek 14:52 Mm-hmm. I think those things are very practical, and you're right, which is to use regular language like stress and joy.

Lewis Howes 14:57 Yes.

Simon Sinek 14:57 I don't want stress, and I do want joy. Perfect segue.

Simon Sinek 15:01 One of the biggest sources of stress in people's lives, it destroys relationships.

Lewis Howes 15:06 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 15:07 Money.

Lewis Howes 15:08 Yep.

Simon Sinek 15:09 And our relationship with money. And I know that you are now very focused on helping people overcome the stress that money sometimes-

Lewis Howes 15:16 Yes

Simon Sinek 15:17 ... gives us.

Lewis Howes 15:18 Yes.

Simon Sinek 15:19 Why does money cause us stress?

Lewis Howes 15:22 [sighs] I think it's all in our interpretation of money. For some people, it doesn't cause them stress.

Simon Sinek 15:26 Right, or the relationship with money. I get that.

Lewis Howes 15:28 It's the relationship with money.

Simon Sinek 15:29 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 15:29 And it's all based on our money story.

Simon Sinek 15:30 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 15:31 So I had different stories that caused little wounds or little traumas within me psychologically, emotionally, mentally, spiritually, that created a, a nervous system or a feeling that would felt unsafe-

Simon Sinek 15:45 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 15:45 ... that felt scarce-

Simon Sinek 15:45 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 15:46 ... when money was involved. When I was eight years old, my brother went to prison for four and a half years for selling drugs to an undercover cop. He was 11 years older than me, so he was n- 19, fresh in college, went to prison, selling LSD to an undercover cop. This was in the '90s when the war against drugs was a big thing, and so it was like your first offense, you're in for the maximum sentence. So it was 6 to 25 years-

Simon Sinek 16:09 Wow

Lewis Howes 16:10 ... was the sentence. He got off in four and a half on good behavior. That event was very traumatizing for our family.

Simon Sinek 16:16 Mm.

Lewis Howes 16:17 Growing up in a small town in the middle of Ohio, we were lower middle class, so all the money and resources went to lawyers and just, like, dealing with that. Now, the traumas after that, it was like, okay, I didn't have friends really for four and a half years. Because you... Small town, everyone knows everyone's business on the block in the suburbs. Everyone knew my brother went to prison.

Simon Sinek 16:41 So then you were treated like a pariah as, like, your family was sort of-

Lewis Howes 16:43 Just, like, their, the other kids-

Simon Sinek 16:45 Right

Lewis Howes 16:45 ... weren't able to hang out with me.

Simon Sinek 16:46 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 16:47 Right? It's like, "Okay, he, he must be a bad kid, too."

Simon Sinek 16:49 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 16:50 And so around this time, a couple kids down the street were starting a club. I don't know if you were ever in any kids clubs growing up.

Simon Sinek 16:57 Of course.

Lewis Howes 16:57 Right? And it was, like, in their parents' basement. They're gonna whatever, do stuff.

Simon Sinek 17:01 Right.

Lewis Howes 17:02 And I was like, "I wanna be in the club." I just wanted friends. I had no friends. And they said, "Okay, there's two ways you can get into the club. You either have to pay, or you have to answer some questions." And they asked me the questions. I didn't know the answers, so I felt less than. I felt dumb. I felt insignificant already there. And they said, "Okay, you, you have to pay $5 to be in the club." So I went home, and I asked my mom, "Hey, Mom, these kids want me to be a part of the club, but I need $5." And she kinda looked at me disappointed. Not that I didn't have friends. I mean, she was sad for me, but she was disappointed 'cause she didn't have money. It's like we had enough to, like, feed and, like, pay for rent, but it wasn't this abundance, right? Many of the conversations I remember hearing between my parents were arguments.

Simon Sinek 17:47 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 17:48 Many of them. Slamming of doors, screaming, someone running away.

Simon Sinek 17:52 Mm.

Lewis Howes 17:53 And it tied around money somehow.

Simon Sinek 17:55 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 17:55 We don't have enough. We can't pay for this. Our son is in prison, and we have legal fees, and all these different things. So there was always this fear and anxiety around it that created my nervous system.

Simon Sinek 18:05 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 18:05 And so anyways, when I came back and asked her for money, and she said, "Let's go to the couch, and let's start flipping over things," literally. I get chills thinking about this because my mom is picking out change from the couch, and maybe in 30 or 40 minutes she finds enough change in the couch, in the drawers, and puts it in a shoebox for me to walk back to this house so I could be in the club, so I could have some friends.I take the box, I walk back, I give it to them. For the next hour in the basement, these two kids are just hanging out by themselves just doing whatever, and I'm kinda just sitting there alone, still not in the club-

Simon Sinek 18:39 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 18:39 ... even though I've paid my dues.

Simon Sinek 18:40 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 18:41 And I remember just walking home feeling so humiliated-

Simon Sinek 18:44 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 18:44 ... so less than-

Simon Sinek 18:45 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 18:46 ... so unworthy of love, of acceptance, of friendship, of anything. I'm not smart enough to be in the club, and I've, I had to pay for friends.

Simon Sinek 18:56 And that didn't even work. Yeah.

Lewis Howes 18:57 And that didn't even work.

Simon Sinek 18:58 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 18:58 It didn't even work for me. So it's just a w- it's like a, I call it a money wound, an emotional wound tied around money. Around my brother, around that. So I had all these different stories that created the belief around money.

Simon Sinek 19:12 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 19:13 And that was connected to how I felt about money, my feelings, my energy, and it created a scarce energy.

Simon Sinek 19:21 Okay. When someone feels guilt or shame about their financial situation, what is the first step to address those negative feelings and start fixing the problem?

Lewis Howes 19:32 [sighs] I'm gonna say something you're not gonna like, but-

Simon Sinek 19:35 Why do you, why... Like-

Lewis Howes 19:36 Because I'm speaking in words and terminology that-

Simon Sinek 19:39 As long as you don't say, "Find your bliss"-

Lewis Howes 19:41 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 19:42 ... I'm pretty much gonna be all in for it.

Lewis Howes 19:43 Love yourself. Um-

Simon Sinek 19:45 Loving yourself is fine. It's-

Lewis Howes 19:46 Yeah, yeah. I'm, I'm-

Simon Sinek 19:48 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 19:48 The, the first thing that's coming up for me is, is reflecting on your money story. These, the things that you asked me about, can you share some of these stories, these traumas-

Simon Sinek 19:57 Yeah

Lewis Howes 19:57 ... these triggers that made you feel emotionally, mentally, or physically unsafe tied to money? And I can remember some of these stories. So whether they're reflecting on them, writing them down, and being aware of them, [sighs] the, the only way [laughs] ...

Simon Sinek 20:14 That's... No, but that's good.

Lewis Howes 20:16 I know. I think it's good. Now I'm gonna say something else which I don't think you're gonna like.

Simon Sinek 20:19 Ugh.

Lewis Howes 20:19 It's going... You know, I feel like my... Being able to communicate certain challenges that I faced as a child, or as a teen, or as an adult through breakups or anything else that caused me pain-

Simon Sinek 20:34 Yeah

Lewis Howes 20:34 ... being able to reflect on them, think about them, either write them down or speak about them-

Simon Sinek 20:40 Yeah

Lewis Howes 20:40 ... allowed me to create awareness and perspective, allowed me to separate myself from them so I could see them separately and not just be in them. Whether you call that workshopping, coaching, therapy, whatever you wanna call it-

Simon Sinek 20:53 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 20:53 ... having a space where you can see yourself from the problem or the pain, and then start finding a way to [laughs] realign and integrate the lessons from that. So get s- perspe- perspective, find the lesson from the blessings, from the meaning of it, the pain, and say, "Okay, how do I wanna start thinking and acting differently-

Simon Sinek 21:13 Yeah

Lewis Howes 21:13 ... from this pain? I don't wanna live this way anymore. I don't wanna have this pain anymore. I need to think in a different way, I need to act in a different way, and I need to see a consistent result of me integrating these lessons." And it's gonna take time. You call that workshopping, coaching, therapy, whatever-

Simon Sinek 21:30 Yeah

Lewis Howes 21:30 ... it might be. So for me, as weird as it sound, it's taking yourself to money therapy, and doing that with your money.

Simon Sinek 21:36 I think that's brilliant. I think that's brilliant.

Lewis Howes 21:37 Money therapy and following a process.

Simon Sinek 21:39 Yeah. It's a relationship. So if you have a struggle relationship with your parents or your spouse or whoever-

Lewis Howes 21:44 100%

Simon Sinek 21:44 ... you do therapy.

Lewis Howes 21:45 100%

Simon Sinek 21:45 So you do money therapy like you do relationship therapy.

Lewis Howes 21:46 Money therapy.

Simon Sinek 21:47 That's brilliant.

Lewis Howes 21:48 And, and if money walked

Lewis Howes 21:49 in the door right now, imagine money was a person.

Simon Sinek 21:50 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 21:51 Hypothetically-

Simon Sinek 21:52 Yeah

Lewis Howes 21:52 ... it's a person. Identify money as a person, and it walked in the door. What would your first emotional reaction or what would you do if you saw money come in as a person? What would that relationship be like with you and money?

Simon Sinek 22:03 Yeah. That... Why would you think I wouldn't like that? That is brilliant.

Lewis Howes 22:07 Okay. Well-

Simon Sinek 22:07 I think it's brilliant.

Lewis Howes 22:08 But what that, what would that relationship be for you right now?

Simon Sinek 22:11 Are you asking me?

Lewis Howes 22:11 I'm asking you the question.

Simon Sinek 22:12 Um, I would say there would be slight tension.

Lewis Howes 22:17 Okay.

Simon Sinek 22:17 It was someone I used to hate because I was a, because I was just super judgmental and never really got to know them.

Lewis Howes 22:24 Uh-huh.

Simon Sinek 22:25 And, um, and after I got to know them and understand that they're, they're actually not the bad person I thought they were-

Lewis Howes 22:33 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 22:33 ... and my irrational hatred of them was causing me more pain than them, 'cause they don't give a shit and they weren't thinking about me at all. Um, but rather, if I could learn to be friends with that person, that they would be there to help me, um, more than I've, uh, accepted their help, would have accepted their help in the past.

Lewis Howes 22:51 Interesting.

Simon Sinek 22:51 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 22:52 No, that's a beautiful reflection, and I would love everyone to think about that, watching or listening, or leave a comment below your video about if money walked into the room-

Simon Sinek 23:00 It's a great exercise

Lewis Howes 23:02 ... what is the relationship to money for you right now?

Simon Sinek 23:04 It's an excellent, excellent, excellent-

Lewis Howes 23:05 And that is going to... I asked a-

Simon Sinek 23:08 It's excellent

Lewis Howes 23:08 ... I asked someone in their late 20s this co-... I, I said, "If money walked in... You're at a restaurant-

Simon Sinek 23:13 Yeah

Lewis Howes 23:13 ... and money walks in, what would you do?" And they said, "I would run to the bar and hide. I would gossip about them behind their back-

Simon Sinek 23:21 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 23:21 ... speak crap about them. Then when they approached me, I would act like they're my friend. Then I want to use and abuse them, and I would ghost them if they ever asked me for something." And I go, "Man, you've got a really traumatic relationship with money." And they're like, "Yeah, I know." And just imagine what your relationship is with money, and it's more the, again, it's the energy, the feeling, the emotions, the thinking. It's all of it combined-

Simon Sinek 23:45 Yeah

Lewis Howes 23:46 ... based on your money history, your money story, your money traumas, your money wounds, your money belief system-

Simon Sinek 23:51 Yeah

Lewis Howes 23:51 ... what you've heard about money from your par- all of it mixed in into a, a, a bowl.

Simon Sinek 23:55 I think that is exceptionally good advice.

Lewis Howes 23:57 And it's having money therapy.

Simon Sinek 23:58 It's exceptionally good advice.

Lewis Howes 24:00 Because we-

Simon Sinek 24:01 And by the way-

Lewis Howes 24:01 ... we want, we want peace

Simon Sinek 24:02 ... and, and unbelievably actionable.

Lewis Howes 24:05 It is, right?

Simon Sinek 24:06 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 24:06 So when I started to learn about how to make money, I was on my sister's couch at 23, 24 for a year and a half, and I was trying to get off her couch and just get my own apartment. I found money mentors. I found some people in my town who had made some money, and I just said, "Tell me what to do. Give me some coaching and I'll do it. I'll act like an athlete of life." And I started to make some moneyAnd I ended up over a few years getting good at making it, but I still didn't feel good

Simon Sinek 24:34 How did you make it? What were you doing?

Lewis Howes 24:35 I was doing free LinkedIn workshops, 'cause I was using LinkedIn to network with people in 2000... s- end of 2007, 2008, 2009.

Simon Sinek 24:44 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 24:45 And I was using it just to try to build relationships-

Simon Sinek 24:47 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 24:48 ... to try to meet people who had been successful, and interview them and ask them questions about how they got there. Little did I know that I would turn that into a business later. But just asking curious questions became a skill set.

Simon Sinek 24:59 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 25:00 One of them, I was like, "You need to optimize your LinkedIn profile. Let me do it for you." And he just gave me 100 bucks afterwards. He goes, "This is actually really gonna help me. Thank you for showing me this." And I go, "You would pay me this, like, money to do this?"

Simon Sinek 25:11 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 25:12 And I'd been on there for, like, six months just obsessing about LinkedIn as my own platform to, like, learn to network with people. And I was like, "Oh, maybe I can make more money. Let me go promote this skill-

Simon Sinek 25:22 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 25:22 ... and try to get other people to, to let me help them as well." That turned into writing a book about LinkedIn, to doing workshops and events about LinkedIn, to doing an online course about LinkedIn, and now it's just like, how do I take this as far as I can go? So once I saw there was an opening-

Simon Sinek 25:35 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 25:35 ... "Here's $100 for doing this," it was, let me max out my time doing one on one.

Simon Sinek 25:40 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 25:41 Then, oh, I met someone who wrote a book. Let me learn how to write a book so I can sell to many.

Simon Sinek 25:46 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 25:47 Oh, you don't make much on a book. Let me do a course, sell to many that way.

Simon Sinek 25:51 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 25:51 Oh, I don't know how to speak publicly. Let me take public speaking class. So I just kept leaning into both my, my natural skills, but my fears-

Simon Sinek 25:59 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 25:59 ... that were blocking me from creating more money.

Simon Sinek 26:01 Do you know what I love about this story? The motivation was not make money. The motivation was solve this problem.

Lewis Howes 26:08 That was it.

Simon Sinek 26:09 And what I love about it is you know this, which is the best businesses, the best entrepreneurs-

Lewis Howes 26:16 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 26:17 ... are trying to solve a problem for themselves or someone else, and the solution that they found ends up being their business.

Lewis Howes 26:22 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 26:22 Because you know it has real value, 'cause it worked for you.

Lewis Howes 26:25 Helped you. Yeah.

Simon Sinek 26:25 It worked for you and it worked for someone else. I couldn't get a good sandwich, so I started my own sandwich shop.

Lewis Howes 26:29 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 26:30 You know, I couldn't get a salad, y- you know, that was local ingredients, so I ma- started my own salad shop, you know, with local ingredients. Whatever it is. And what I love is the motivation was not to monetize. The motivation was to learn.

Lewis Howes 26:44 There's two things that

Lewis Howes 26:45 tied to this. One, I probably would have never been in this position if two things didn't happen. One, my dad had gotten into a, a near-fatal car accident when I was 22, my senior year in college. My parents got divorced when I was a teenager. He went to New Zealand with his then fiance, and he got into a car accident where the car came on top of his car and hit him through the windshield-

Simon Sinek 27:07 No way

Lewis Howes 27:08 ... and he was in, he was in a coma for three months-

Simon Sinek 27:09 Wow

Lewis Howes 27:10 ... in New Zealand. And we didn't know if he was gonna live or die. And my dad always said, you know, "Go chase your dreams, and if it doesn't work out or when you're done, you can always come work for me and sell insurance." And I, like, you know, grew up learning about life insurance. But it wasn't, like, my passion. It wasn't, like, my calling. But I w- it was a safety net, though. It was like, okay, my dad has figured out how to make money after 32 years of busting his butt. The last five years before his accident, he was starting to get bigger commissions from those, you know, 25-plus years. They were like, finally it was paying off. Like, finally he could buy a car, a new car. Finally, like, he could go on better vacations. It was like all that hard work paid off, and then boom, he gets this accident. And then all the money is gone. First, the medical bills were through the roof, and he got rid of his health insurance a few months prior, so he wasn't able to cover... Health insurance didn't cover it. When they flew him back from New Zealand, he finally woke up three months later, flew him back. He was physically in this world, but it was like he emotionally, spiritually gone.

Simon Sinek 28:13 Mm.

Lewis Howes 28:13 He wasn't the same man.

Simon Sinek 28:15 Mm.

Lewis Howes 28:15 So it was like talking to a child-

Simon Sinek 28:17 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 28:17 ... who didn't remember who you were. So the, the sadness that I felt, and our whole family felt, was worse than, like, lo- him losing his money.

Simon Sinek 28:26 Mm.

Lewis Howes 28:26 And he lost his money essentially from the medical bills, but also his fiance at the time became power of attorney, because he wasn't able to work anymore or comm- really communicate. She took all the money out of his life insurance policies-

Simon Sinek 28:39 Oh, no

Lewis Howes 28:39 ... that he invested in us.

Simon Sinek 28:41 Oh.

Lewis Howes 28:41 He had ownership of them, and took all the money.

Simon Sinek 28:44 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 28:44 So there was nothing for us. If that accident... And I'm not... I mean, it was a devastating experience, but had he had something for me, I don't know if I would have been this innovative and courageous-

Simon Sinek 28:57 Sure

Lewis Howes 28:57 ... to go figure it out on my own.

Simon Sinek 28:58 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 28:59 Or find other mentors to help teach me.

Simon Sinek 29:01 That makes sense.

Lewis Howes 29:02 That was one, that I would not be here, I think, without him going through that experience. And the second thing is when I was living on my sister's couch during this time for a year and a half, she was like, "You gotta pay rent." I wasn't paying anything for a year and a half, and her saying, like, "You either ha- you have to leave or pay rent."

Simon Sinek 29:18 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 29:20 And I left and begged my brother to let me stay at his house, and he was like, "You need to pay $250 a month to have a room here."

Simon Sinek 29:26 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 29:27 But that forced me to step up and take action and

Lewis Howes 29:31 have courage.

Simon Sinek 29:31 I don't know if we've ever talked about this, about courage.

Lewis Howes 29:33 Mm.

Simon Sinek 29:33 Have we, have we talked about courage, that I think courage is external, not internal?

Lewis Howes 29:37 Tell me, what do you mean by that?

Simon Sinek 29:39 So, so I, I think courage, for the most part, is not an internal thing, where you dig down deep and find the courage.

Lewis Howes 29:46 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 29:46 I actually don't believe that for the most part. I think courage is actually an external thing, where-

Lewis Howes 29:51 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 29:51 ... you know, the reason you have the courage to jump out of a perfectly good airplane is because of the parachute on your back. Without the parashut- parachute, you don't have courage, right? A world-famous trapeze artist would never try a brand-new death-defying act for the first time without a net. The net gives you the courage to take the risk, right? Your dad saying, "Go pursue your dreams. Don't worry, you can always come sell insurance if you need to," that's a safety net, right? Gives you the courage to do-

Lewis Howes 30:16 Yeah

Simon Sinek 30:16 ... go do crazy things. And anyone who's ever served in the military will tell you they're not running to the sound of the gun for God and country. It's persons left and person to the right. It's the relationships that give you the courage to do difficult things. And any of us that has to do, that have to do something difficult for ourselves, at work, whatever it is, entrepreneurial venture, take on, you know, address trauma, whatever it is-

Lewis Howes 30:38 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 30:39 ... all you need is one person in your life... that is standing next to you who says, "I got you."

Lewis Howes 30:46 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 30:46 "If this thing goes completely sideways, still here."

Lewis Howes 30:50 I mean-

Simon Sinek 30:50 "I got you." And that, that is where courage comes from.

Lewis Howes 30:54 Workshop this with me then. The things I've had to have the most courage around is having challenging conversations with people where I didn't really wanna disappoint them or have them upset or reacting in a certain way, typically in previous relationships.

Simon Sinek 31:08 Sure.

Lewis Howes 31:08 Intimate relationships. And what I realized is I was so afraid of someone else externally rather than how I felt about me.

Simon Sinek 31:17 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 31:17 And I didn't have the courage to know that I was safe with me, no matter what happened with some o- other relationship.

Simon Sinek 31:24 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 31:24 That I was communicating or not doing something or doing something that they wanted or didn't want me to do.

Simon Sinek 31:28 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 31:29 That's where I struggled around the courage. It was always around, [lips smack] you know, having the courage to speak on stage for years was terrifying 'cause I didn't feel safe with me.

Simon Sinek 31:39 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 31:39 Sure, I didn't wanna be humiliated by others-

Simon Sinek 31:41 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 31:41 ... but I felt like if they don't validate me, I'm still not here to validate myself.

Simon Sinek 31:45 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 31:45 I'm still not safe with me 'cause I don't know the tools on how to like myself-

Simon Sinek 31:49 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 31:49 ... or how to accept myself and be alone.

Simon Sinek 31:51 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 31:52 And so how would that play into courage being an external thing versus an internal thing?

Simon Sinek 31:58 I think it's a much easier journey to like yourself or be at least at more peace with yourself when you have one person in your life who likes you for you.

Lewis Howes 32:08 Yeah. What if you don't have one person for you, who likes you for you?

Simon Sinek 32:10 I would say then it goes back to the story of my friend who, you know, I was coaching her and it wasn't working.

Lewis Howes 32:16 Uh-huh.

Simon Sinek 32:16 But when I o- asked her to coach me, which is, okay, if you don't have one person in your life who, who likes you, when was the last time you said to someone, "You know, you're a good person."

Lewis Howes 32:28 Mm.

Simon Sinek 32:28 "I like you."

Lewis Howes 32:29 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 32:29 Like, when was the last time you did that for someone else?

Lewis Howes 32:31 Right.

Simon Sinek 32:32 And I think the journey of trying to solve your problems by helping other people who are struggling with the same problem is the, is a place to start, you know? Um-

Lewis Howes 32:41 But at the end of the day, as woo as this might sound-

Simon Sinek 32:44 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 32:44 ... if you can't look yourself in the mirror, literally as a practice, I'm not saying like, "Oh, look yourself in the mirror," but, like, literally if you can't look in the mirror and say, [lips smack] "Yeah, I really like and appreciate myself and love myself for who I am right now or the journey I'm on or who I'm becoming." I don't know many people that can look themselves in the mirror authentically, not as like a gimmick or a shtick and say, "I like you. I love you. I accept you. You're not perfect. You're not this, like, incredible thing."

Simon Sinek 33:12 But you know, but here's the validation, right? If you can look externally that we are broken and imperfect-

Lewis Howes 33:19 Yes

Simon Sinek 33:20 ... and messy and stupid and irresponsible, we are all these things, and yet there are still people who like us. And I'll pick up on the example you m- you sort of made a joke, um, about the fact that I was such a bad listener, right? My friends and ex-girlfriends would say to me, "You are a terrible listener." And I would be like, "You, you do know what I do for a living, right?"

Lewis Howes 33:41 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 33:42 "I'm a, I'm a pretty good listener."

Lewis Howes 33:44 Yeah, yeah. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 33:45 Right?

Lewis Howes 33:45 I'm a professional.

Simon Sinek 33:45 I teach other people how to listen.

Lewis Howes 33:47 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 33:47 I think I know-

Lewis Howes 33:48 I get paid. That's like a fountain

Simon Sinek 33:49 ... I think I know what I'm doing, right? Um, and then I took this listening class and I discovered that I am a fantastic listener with people I will never see again for the rest of my life.

Lewis Howes 34:01 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 34:02 But with the people who are close to me who I love, terrible.

Lewis Howes 34:05 Why is that?

Simon Sinek 34:07 Probably took them for granted. I don't know.

Lewis Howes 34:08 Oh, yeah.

Simon Sinek 34:08 You know what it is, because active listening requires a lot of energy. It's a skill. And so when I'm meeting somebody and they're asking me these questions, I am dialed in. I am, I am on, I'm professional, I'm doing it, and then when I'm with my friends, I turn it off, and that was where I was being irresponsible. And you know this, you know, all successful relationships, if you ask people, you know, "What's your secret?" They say, "It's hard work and we do the work."

Lewis Howes 34:28 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 34:28 In other words, relationships require work. So do friendships.

Lewis Howes 34:32 Yes.

Simon Sinek 34:32 And I, like many, took friendships for granted and turned it off. Did the work in other places, but didn't do the work here.

Lewis Howes 34:40 Mm.

Simon Sinek 34:40 And so I took this class. I discover I'm a terrible listener with the people I love. So the first thing I do is pick up the phone and call them one by one-

Lewis Howes 34:46 Wow

Simon Sinek 34:46 ... and be like, "Hey, I just took this class and I think I'm a really bad listener." And they go, "Yeah, we know." Right?

Lewis Howes 34:54 Wow.

Simon Sinek 34:54 And I go, "Sorry?" They're like, "It's okay."

Lewis Howes 34:57 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 34:57 But the point is they still stuck with me.

Lewis Howes 35:00 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 35:00 They saw something in me that was worth hanging out, being my friend, putting up with my absolute nonsense, sometimes to the point where I made them feel bad, you know? They saw something in me. They knew I wasn't a bad person, and I think that's the greatest validation you can get, and it goes right back to what you said before, which is, like, I can't let them down now.

Lewis Howes 35:27 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 35:27 Now that I know, now that it's been exposed that they still like me for me 'cause they see something inside me that I haven't yet realized or pulled out of myself, I owe it to my friends even before I owe it to myself.

Lewis Howes 35:40 Keep workshop with this, with me, because I've got a, I've got a story I, I wanna see, 'cause I'm gonna, I'm gonna push back a little bit on this.

Simon Sinek 35:45 I like it.

Lewis Howes 35:46 When I was in eighth grade, I went to a private boarding school, and so I'm pretty good as an eighth grader in basketball and in most sports. I'm pretty athletic at this point. I'm developing. I'm tall. I'm, like, this tall at eighth grade, 6'4", and I was-

Simon Sinek 36:00 6'4" as an eighth grader

Lewis Howes 36:01 ... I was like a giant. Yeah, yeah. Maybe I was, like, 6'2" and a half, 6'3"-

Simon Sinek 36:03 Whatever

Lewis Howes 36:03 ... but I got pretty close.

Simon Sinek 36:04 I mean, at that age, it's all relative

Lewis Howes 36:05 ... I was tall. I was the tallest in the class, all these things. So it was a small private school, and it was connected to the high school.

Simon Sinek 36:10 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 36:10 It was all associated. And so they had me s- practicing with the varsity team even though I was in the middle school.

Simon Sinek 36:16 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 36:17 And I wasn't as good as the seniors, but I was like, I could keep up with some of them, and there was this guy who still to this day is the most freak athlete I've ever seen. He was... It was unbelievable to just watch him effortlessly jump up onto the rim, 360 dunk, like he could do anything, anything athletically, freak of nature. And he was, like, supposed to be the star. But for whatever reason, in the game, he played average every game. He never accelerated. But in practice, it was like... godlike. It was unbelievable. And [clears throat] I remember I never really understood it, 'cause I didn't have the talent, the raw talent. I had the- I was tall, but I didn't have the athleticism, like the power. And I was like, "Man, give me an ounce of that and I will dominate people." And everyone poured into him. Everyone externally said, "You're our captain. You're our leader," because of his skill.

Simon Sinek 37:13 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 37:14 "We believe in you. Give him the ball." But he just, he-

Simon Sinek 37:17 Yeah, yeah

Lewis Howes 37:17 ... performed average, right?

Simon Sinek 37:19 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 37:19 And it didn't matter if everyone in the world was celebrating him, championing him, there for him, seeing him, acknowledging him.

Simon Sinek 37:26 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 37:26 He didn't acknowledge it in himself.

Simon Sinek 37:27 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 37:28 For whatever reason, he had the talent, he had the skill.

Simon Sinek 37:30 Mm.

Lewis Howes 37:31 But I bet if he looked himself in the mirror and did-

Simon Sinek 37:33 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 37:33 ... this weird exercise, I don't know if he fully believes-

Simon Sinek 37:36 Yeah

Lewis Howes 37:37 ... or loved or accepted who he was.

Simon Sinek 37:39 I think that's some of it.

Lewis Howes 37:41 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 37:42 There, that is consistent with some of the data that exists on kids who are, like, straight-A students, top of their class-

Lewis Howes 37:47 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 37:47 ... you know, honors, on a roll, the whole thing, [clears throat] that their whole life they get told, "You're so smart. You're the best."

Lewis Howes 37:53 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 37:53 "You're so smart. You're the best." And then what ends up happening is they fear falling off the pedestal.

Lewis Howes 37:57 Mm.

Simon Sinek 37:57 And so they end up playing safe the rest of their life-

Lewis Howes 37:59 Yeah

Simon Sinek 37:59 ... for fear of falling off the pedestal-

Lewis Howes 38:00 Ah

Simon Sinek 38:00 ... because they've, they don't wanna not be that.

Lewis Howes 38:03 Interesting.

Simon Sinek 38:03 And average kids are never told, "You're the sm- you're so smart."

Lewis Howes 38:06 Yeah. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 38:06 "You're so great." Average kids are told, "Great effort."

Lewis Howes 38:09 Uh-huh.

Simon Sinek 38:09 And so when you're told, "Great effort," there is no ceiling.

Lewis Howes 38:12 Right.

Simon Sinek 38:13 You just keep going.

Lewis Howes 38:14 Keep, give them more effort.

Simon Sinek 38:15 'Cause you're g- 'cause you're getting rewarded for your effort, not your accomplishment.

Lewis Howes 38:17 Yeah, yeah.

Simon Sinek 38:18 And so you, the data shows that average kids are more likely to outperform in life-

Lewis Howes 38:23 Interesting

Simon Sinek 38:23 ... because they don't perceive a ceiling, and they don't have a fear of falling off.

Lewis Howes 38:26 Wow.

Simon Sinek 38:27 And I've definitely seen this in my own career. Like, the kids who are, like, straight-A students went to the, all the Ivy League schools, and that's not to say if you go to Va- an Ivy League school that this is who you are. But the ones who found a place on the pedestal, and that's where they got their identity... Remember, this comes from young age. Like, your identity is, and his identity was, in practice, people telling him, "You're the best. You're amazing. We've never seen anything like that before." Now the fear-

Lewis Howes 38:52 Mm

Simon Sinek 38:52 ... of not being the best, he can't bring it.

Lewis Howes 38:55 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 38:56 He can't bring it when there's real odds and real stakes. Because, uh, in practice, you can't lose.

Lewis Howes 39:01 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 39:01 But in a game, if he takes risk-

Lewis Howes 39:03 More at stake, yeah

Simon Sinek 39:04 ... he's gonna lose, and then they're gonna be like-

Lewis Howes 39:06 Mm

Simon Sinek 39:06 ... "Oh, you're not as good as we thought you were."

Lewis Howes 39:07 Right.

Simon Sinek 39:08 Right? Where when you're average, win, lose, whatever, right? Just another day, just played my best. Like, w- win, lose, win some-

Lewis Howes 39:16 Right

Simon Sinek 39:16 ... lose some.

Lewis Howes 39:16 But you were at the top of your class. You were excelling.

Simon Sinek 39:18 Me?

Lewis Howes 39:18 You were skipping grades probably.

Simon Sinek 39:20 Me?

Lewis Howes 39:20 Yeah, weren't you?

Simon Sinek 39:21 Ha.

Lewis Howes 39:21 No?

Simon Sinek 39:22 Solid B student.

Lewis Howes 39:24 But you probably s- you probably had acknowledgments in other areas of academics or of something around-

Simon Sinek 39:30 Yeah, sure. What I got told most of-

Lewis Howes 39:31 ... debate club or something else, right?

Simon Sinek 39:32 Nope. Nope. What I got told most often my whole childhood was, "If you'd only focus, you could, you could actually, uh, achieve more. If only you would focus, you could actually l- l- work to your full potential."

Lewis Howes 39:43 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 39:44 I was told, "If you work harder, maybe you'll do better."

Lewis Howes 39:47 Uh-huh.

Simon Sinek 39:48 You know? But, like, grades didn't mean anything to me.

Lewis Howes 39:52 Right, right, right.

Simon Sinek 39:52 And so A, B, whatever. I always... Like, to the point where I'm devi- designing my own grading systems, where I always believed grades should be given as a ratio, right? So it should be the m- level of accomplishment, because level of accomplishment is still important.

Lewis Howes 40:05 Uh-huh.

Simon Sinek 40:05 But level of accomplishment over hours studied, right?

Lewis Howes 40:09 Uh-huh.

Simon Sinek 40:11 So I went to school with kids who got A over 50, right? I got a B over two.

Lewis Howes 40:16 Mm.

Simon Sinek 40:16 Right? Is that a better or worse grade? The answer is it depends what you need.

Lewis Howes 40:20 Mm.

Simon Sinek 40:21 It's not, it's not a comparison of good or bad, or right or wrong, or smarter or not smarter. So if you need somebody to do top quality, A-level work, and you're willing to give them 50 hours to do it, hire that kid.

Lewis Howes 40:33 Right.

Simon Sinek 40:33 Don't hire me, 'cause I don't wanna do 50 hours, right?

Lewis Howes 40:36 If you can get it done in two at a B level-

Simon Sinek 40:37 But if you need somebody who can operate at pressure and do pretty well-

Lewis Howes 40:39 Yeah, yeah. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 40:40 ... I'll give you a B over two every day.

Lewis Howes 40:41 [laughs] That's great.

Simon Sinek 40:43 Right? So I'm probably being generous. It's a B over half an hour.

Lewis Howes 40:44 Yeah, yeah.

Simon Sinek 40:45 Right? And so the A over 50s hated me-

Lewis Howes 40:48 Mm

Simon Sinek 40:48 ... 'cause I could get a B plus over two, right?

Lewis Howes 40:51 Yeah. Could study on the bus ride to school and show-

Simon Sinek 40:53 Yeah, exactly.

Lewis Howes 40:54 Yeah, yeah. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 40:54 Exact- they hated me. But the point is, is, like, I think I learned pretty-

Lewis Howes 40:58 Ah

Simon Sinek 40:58 ... at a reasonable age, thank goodness, that I wasn't comparing my self-worth of the A and the B. I was laughing at them for working so hard for not that much more gain. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 41:10 Right. Yeah, yeah.

Simon Sinek 41:11 Like, was that worth 48 hours for just, like, a half a point or 10 points on your grade?

Lewis Howes 41:15 Right. It's not worth it.

Simon Sinek 41:15 Like, to me it's not worth it.

Lewis Howes 41:16 What were you comparing yourself-

Simon Sinek 41:17 'Cause I was doing just fine.

Lewis Howes 41:18 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 41:18 Like, it's not like I'm flunking out of school.

Lewis Howes 41:20 Right.

Simon Sinek 41:20 Like, I'm doing fine.

Lewis Howes 41:21 You weren't the number one, but you were-

Simon Sinek 41:21 I wasn't number one.

Lewis Howes 41:22 Yeah, yeah.

Simon Sinek 41:23 And I've always been very comfortable.

Lewis Howes 41:25 Uh-huh.

Simon Sinek 41:25 Like, and I think what that's done, now it goes back to the original thing of, like, when you're not on the pedestal, I'm totally comfortable and totally at peace with the fact that there are people who have more followers, that make more... like, their companies are bigger. Like, they make more money. Like, whatever, right? Like, and so I don't have that, "Gotta be number one."

Lewis Howes 41:47 Mm.

Simon Sinek 41:47 "Beat everyone."

Lewis Howes 41:48 See, I used to have that.

Simon Sinek 41:49 I don't have it at all.

Lewis Howes 41:50 I used to have that.

Simon Sinek 41:51 'Cause I've, 'cause I've never really had it.

Lewis Howes 41:53 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 41:53 Right?

Lewis Howes 41:53 Interesting.

Simon Sinek 41:54 And so going back to your friend, I, I don't know if it's that he didn't like himself-

Lewis Howes 41:59 Yeah, yeah

Simon Sinek 42:00 ... or that... I mean, I'm sure-

Lewis Howes 42:00 Who knows? Yeah

Simon Sinek 42:00 ... I'm su- I'm sure it's in there.

Lewis Howes 42:01 Yeah. Who knows?

Simon Sinek 42:02 I mean, how can it not be, right? But I think it's a very close bedfellow-

Lewis Howes 42:07 Yeah, of course

Simon Sinek 42:07 ... with that other people have given you the identity-

Lewis Howes 42:11 Uh-huh

Simon Sinek 42:11 ... of the genius, the star athlete-

Lewis Howes 42:13 Yeah, yeah

Simon Sinek 42:14 ... at a very young age, and now you spend the rest of your life afraid of losing it.

Lewis Howes 42:19 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 42:19 As opposed to-

Lewis Howes 42:21 Risking it for it, going for it. Yeah

Simon Sinek 42:22 ... and so they, I mean, I think there are parenting experts who know more than I do about this stuff.

Lewis Howes 42:26 Of course, yeah.

Simon Sinek 42:26 But you're, you're supposed to s- reward effort. Like, great effort you're supposed to say to a kid-

Lewis Howes 42:30 Mm

Simon Sinek 42:31 ... as opposed to, "You're the smartest."

Lewis Howes 42:32 Yeah, yeah.

Simon Sinek 42:32 "You're the best. You're the prettiest."

Lewis Howes 42:34 Right.

Simon Sinek 42:35 You know?

Lewis Howes 42:35 What did you think you measured your self-worth to, then, if it wasn't, like, your grades or your, your-

Simon Sinek 42:41 As a kid?

Lewis Howes 42:41 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 42:42 In junior high school, so what's that? Like, seventh-

Lewis Howes 42:46 Seventh and eighth grade

Simon Sinek 42:46 ... seventh and eighth grade-

Lewis Howes 42:48 Yeah

Simon Sinek 42:48 ... my best friend was Adam. He was the leader. He was the alpha of our little posse, right?He was the alpha dog

Lewis Howes 42:56 Physically or emotion-wise?

Simon Sinek 42:58 No, just like there's always a leader of the group

Lewis Howes 42:59 Yeah, yeah

Simon Sinek 42:59 And he was the leader

Lewis Howes 42:59 Energetically, he was, yeah

Simon Sinek 43:00 You know, he was, he was the leader of our group, right? We all, like, we all wanted to be like Adam

Lewis Howes 43:04 Follow him. Yeah, yeah.

Simon Sinek 43:04 Yeah. We all followed Adam, right? And Adam and I, you know, as kids do, young, young boys, like, we had a fight over who knows what, something stupid, and the next day I got on the bus and nobody sat next to me. None of my quote-unquote "friends" from the posse sat next to me. They all sat in different seats.

Lewis Howes 43:18 Ouch.

Simon Sinek 43:18 And I had no friends because I had a fight with Adam-

Lewis Howes 43:20 Oh, man

Simon Sinek 43:20 ... and he instructed them not to sit next to me.

Lewis Howes 43:22 Oh.

Simon Sinek 43:23 So I got punished, right? And that loneliness and that, like, you gotta be kidding me, right? And so at a fairly young age, I was able to say, "How the hell is my happiness that who I sit next to on the b- who will sit next to me on the bus is conditional if I, like, kiss the ring, if I'm, like, have to be nice to Adam otherwise I have no friends? This is ridiculous that I'm relying on somebody else, like, for my friends."

Lewis Howes 43:51 Mm.

Simon Sinek 43:52 And so at a pretty early age, I started experimenting with being my own self and taking responsibility for my own, like, whatever it was. But baby steps, right?

Lewis Howes 44:03 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 44:03 And so, like, I went to American school, so, you know, jeans, sneakers, T-shirts was, you know, what we wore to school, and I started wearing shoes. Like, black shoes. Nobody wore shoes. Everybody wore sneakers.

Lewis Howes 44:17 Like dress shoes, like nicer-

Simon Sinek 44:18 Yeah, like nicer shoes

Lewis Howes 44:19 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 44:19 Yeah. So I... Like, like lace-up shoes. I started wearing shoes where everybody else was wearing sneakers, and people would make fun of me, and, like, people would be like, "Why are you wearing shoes?" And I would just wear my shoes. And then get a little older, and I started pushing the boundaries a little more, and I stopped wearing white socks and I started wearing crazy colored socks, which I do to this day. I don't own plain colored socks except to work out in. And that started pretty young, and I started sort of experimenting. And I used to joke, you know, the old Teddy Roosevelt, you know, speak softly and carry a big stick, you know?

Lewis Howes 44:48 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 44:48 I used to joke, I'd say, "Speak softly and wear loud socks."

Lewis Howes 44:51 That's cool.

Simon Sinek 44:51 You know? And, and it was sort of, it became my signature thing.

Lewis Howes 44:54 That's cool.

Simon Sinek 44:54 Then I get to college and I start wearing ties with my jeans and my shoes and my brightly colored socks. Just screwing around, just getting comfortable being me, taking very baby steps, like getting comfortable with people be like, "What's up with the tie?"

Lewis Howes 45:10 Right, right.

Simon Sinek 45:11 You know?

Lewis Howes 45:11 Making fun of you or teasing you, yeah.

Simon Sinek 45:12 Making fun of me, and I'd like, you know, I didn't do it every day, but it was like, I did it. And build up the, build up the-

Lewis Howes 45:20 Courage

Simon Sinek 45:20 ... the courage.

Lewis Howes 45:21 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 45:21 The slow baby steps-

Lewis Howes 45:23 Yeah

Simon Sinek 45:23 ... to be a weirdo.

Lewis Howes 45:24 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 45:24 You know? Or rather to let my weirdo out.

Lewis Howes 45:26 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 45:26 But it really was born out of, like, I'm not gonna rely on somebody else to determine who my friends are. My friends will be my friends or my friends won't be my friends, but it's not because I did or didn't-

Lewis Howes 45:38 Yeah

Simon Sinek 45:38 ... you know, kiss the ring.

Lewis Howes 45:39 Hmm, that's interesting.

Simon Sinek 45:40 And so these are stupid little things that nobody can see, and this is what it is. I think, and you said it before, and I think you're 100% right, which is do it for yourself.

Lewis Howes 45:49 Yes.

Simon Sinek 45:50 Like, it doesn't matter what it is. It can be stupid, right?

Lewis Howes 45:53 People can love it or hate it.

Simon Sinek 45:54 It doesn't matter.

Lewis Howes 45:55 But you do it for you, yeah.

Simon Sinek 45:55 And it, it doesn't have to even be visible to the world.

Lewis Howes 45:57 Yes.

Simon Sinek 45:58 But wear something, do something, try something, taste something, go somewhere, but do it for yourself.

Lewis Howes 46:04 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 46:05 And when somebody says, "Why are you doing that?" You're like, "I don't know. 'Cause I like it."

Lewis Howes 46:08 Exactly.

Simon Sinek 46:08 That's the only answer you have to give. I don't know, 'cause I like it. I don't know, 'cause it just makes me happy. And it's not like self-love is gonna be the thing that shows up the next day. I think self-love is the exact same as falling in love with someone else, which is tell me the day, Lewis Howes, tell me the day that you fell in love with your, your now wife.

Lewis Howes 46:29 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 46:29 You don't know.

Lewis Howes 46:30 Okay, I can't tell you the day.

Simon Sinek 46:30 You couldn't tell, and she couldn't tell me the day she-

Lewis Howes 46:32 No.

Simon Sinek 46:32 You know you fell in love with her, but the point is, is there is no day.

Lewis Howes 46:35 There wasn't, there wasn't a moment. For me, it was I felt a sense of continual peace that I'd never felt before over a period of time.

Simon Sinek 46:42 And over a period of time, you then said, "Oh my God, I think..." It's a real- the realization-

Lewis Howes 46:45 Yes

Simon Sinek 46:45 ... that you are now in love, right?

Lewis Howes 46:47 Yes.

Simon Sinek 46:47 So why in the self-help world do we keep saying you have to fall in love with yourself like it's a day or an event, or you do these five things and you will have self-love? If that, there's a completely different standard for falling in love with somebody else.

Lewis Howes 46:59 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 46:59 Why would we change the standard to fall in love with ourselves?

Lewis Howes 47:02 Right.

Simon Sinek 47:02 Which is, okay, how do you fall in love with somebody else? Okay. Well, when you go to the, the fridge to get a drink for yourself, bring a drink for them.

Lewis Howes 47:09 Uh-huh.

Simon Sinek 47:10 Learn their love language. Give that to them. Don't just expect them to learn yours.

Lewis Howes 47:13 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 47:14 Okay.

Lewis Howes 47:15 Do that for you.

Simon Sinek 47:15 Do that for you.

Lewis Howes 47:16 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 47:16 What's something you like? What's your love language that you like for yourself?

Lewis Howes 47:20 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 47:20 I like giving gifts to people. Buy yourself a gift. Okay, there's one.

Lewis Howes 47:23 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 47:23 I like words of affirmation to other people.

Lewis Howes 47:25 Same deal.

Simon Sinek 47:25 Give yourself some words of affirmation. You know, splurge. Get the thing with the caviar on it next time.

Lewis Howes 47:31 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 47:31 You know? I used to do a thing that every day I came home, I had no money, I was living hand to fist, and every day when I c- I came home, I would op- I'd put my hand in my pocket, and every dollar bill, not fives, not tens, just ones, every dollar bill I would throw in a shoebox. Every day. Sometimes there'd be none. Sometimes there'd be five. Sometimes there'd be 10. S- sometimes I'd be like, "Eh, I don't think I should put 10 in there."

Lewis Howes 47:52 Uh.

Simon Sinek 47:52 You know? Every now and then I was feeling cocky and I'd throw a five in there. But every day I threw in these $1 bills. Because who cares? I'm just throwing away a $2 a day.

Lewis Howes 48:00 Uh-huh.

Simon Sinek 48:00 Like, I didn't care. At the end of a few months, I had hundreds of dollars. That was my do whatever the hell you want fund.

Lewis Howes 48:06 That's cool.

Simon Sinek 48:07 That was my I wanna spend an extra $40 for the, for the, the truffle on my pasta. It's coming out of that fund. I wanna buy something stupid for myself. It was my you can do whatever you want stupid fund.

Lewis Howes 48:19 That's cool.

Simon Sinek 48:19 Right? And my point is, is like, do those little things for yourself, and I guarantee you at some point, I don't know when, and neither will you, you will look in the mirror and be like, "Eh, I, I, yeah, I kinda like, I like you a lot."

Lewis Howes 48:35 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I think you make your life easier by doing the things you're most afraid of and doing the most painful things now. For example, when I was 16, I had eight teeth removed, um, four wisdom and then four side teeth because my teeth were all over the place, and they told me I was supposed to do braces. I never wanted to do the braces. I did a really painful thing. I had eight teeth removed at once, and it was like months of healing. And then football season came around and you wear a mouth guard. I was like, "Ah, I don't wanna have the braces in. I'll wait six months till after the season." Six months became 20 years, and I have a photo I'll show you whereFor the last six years, I've been on the most painful journey of just correcting my jaw and my teeth so my teeth touch. My jaw started to grow in where only the front two teeth touched for 20 years.

Simon Sinek 49:26 No kidding.

Lewis Howes 49:27 And I had four gaps in my mouth, so I couldn't chew my food, so I had digestion problems. All these things started to happen because I avoided pain. I wanted to just relax. I didn't wanna do more pain. And I think our lives would be better if we lean into the fear and the pain and the discomfort first, as opposed to waiting, 'cause I had a very painful 20 years because I delayed it.

Simon Sinek 49:50 It, it's a perfectly good metaphor for, for relationships too, right?

Lewis Howes 49:53 Oh, yeah.

Simon Sinek 49:53 I have to have a difficult conversation with somebody I love.

Lewis Howes 49:54 We just delay it.

Simon Sinek 49:55 Well, it, it was like... Exactly. It's like, well, there's g- I, and I always tell my friends, "There's gonna be pain."

Lewis Howes 49:59 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 50:00 Better a little pain now than a lot of pain later.

Lewis Howes 50:01 Yes.

Simon Sinek 50:01 But there's gonna be pain.

Lewis Howes 50:03 Yes.

Simon Sinek 50:03 'Cause people are trying to avoid the pain.

Lewis Howes 50:04 Uh-huh.

Simon Sinek 50:05 No, you're not gonna avoid the pain, but you can avoid more pain. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 50:08 Yeah, exactly. You can't avoid the pain.

Simon Sinek 50:10 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 50:10 But I think you're gonna have a much better life if you go all in on your fears and your pain as fast as possible, and figuring out what's sustainable.

Simon Sinek 50:16 I just want people to, like, take the, take the pressure off themselves.

Lewis Howes 50:20 Yes.

Simon Sinek 50:21 That's all.

Lewis Howes 50:21 You need to find something that's sustainable for you, that's a lifestyle for you, that you can live in this season of life.

Simon Sinek 50:27 Yes. So, like, for me, the ADHD kid in me, it's like, everything I've ever done is, like, great for, like, a month or two months.

Lewis Howes 50:34 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 50:34 And then I fall off the bandwagon and I'm, and I blame myself.

Lewis Howes 50:37 Uh-huh.

Simon Sinek 50:37 Like, I can't stick with anything. And somebody pointed out to me, maybe just it worked for two months, and that's all it needs to work for.

Lewis Howes 50:44 That's it.

Simon Sinek 50:44 And find something else to work for another two months.

Lewis Howes 50:45 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 50:45 And then find something else. And so, like, why are you beating yourself up that it, that you couldn't stick with it?

Lewis Howes 50:50 Right.

Simon Sinek 50:50 Maybe it just works for that period of time. It worked great for that period of time. Now find something else that works for another period of time.

Lewis Howes 50:55 Exactly. Yeah, that's true.

Simon Sinek 50:56 And it's like I've taken all the pressure off myself.

Lewis Howes 50:58 Yes.

Simon Sinek 50:58 Lovely. Lewis.

Lewis Howes 51:00 Appreciate you, man.

Simon Sinek 51:00 It's so nice to have you on.

Lewis Howes 51:02 Thanks, brother.

Simon Sinek 51:02 Truly.

Lewis Howes 51:02 Appreciate you.

Simon Sinek 51:04 Really.

Lewis Howes 51:04 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 51:04 [upbeat music] If you enjoyed this podcast and would like to hear more, please subscribe wherever you like to listen to podcasts. And if you'd like even more optimism, check out my website, simonsinek.com, for classes, videos, and more. Until then, take care of yourself, take care of each other. A Bit of Optimism is a production of The Optimism Company. It's produced and edited by Lindsey Garbinus, David Ja, and Devon Johnson. Our executive producers are Henrietta Conrad and Greg Rudishen.