Skip to content
Simon SinekSimon Sinek

The Secret to Better Conversations Isn't Talking | A Bit of Optimism: Feelings at Work | PART 2

*The fastest way to improve your relationships isn't talking. It's listening.* Most of us hear what's being said. Very few of us know how to make someone feel heard. *Feelings at Work* is a special five-part series from *A Bit of Optimism,* where Simon Sinek and *Alex Simon, founder of LifeShop,* explore the human skills that shape how we work, lead, and build relationships. Together, they unpack the emotional challenges most of us face every day—from people pleasing and listening to giving feedback, taking accountability, and having difficult conversations. In this episode, they explore one of the most important communication skills we can develop: listening. Together, they share practical techniques to improve your listening skills, build trust, navigate difficult conversations, and create better outcomes at work and at home. You'll learn why people often ask for one thing but actually need another, how to stop jumping into fix-it mode, and Alex's simple Four-Second Rule for becoming a better listener. When people feel heard, relationships grow stronger, conflicts become easier to navigate, and conversations become more meaningful. Because better conversations don't require everyone to be a great listener. *They only require one.* *In this episode you'll learn:* ➡️ Why hearing someone isn't the same as making them feel heard ➡️ How to stop jumping into "fix-it mode" and start listening with curiosity ➡️ Alex Simon's simple *Four-Second Rule* for becoming a better listener ➡️ Why people often ask for one thing but actually need something else ➡️ How better listening builds trust, strengthens relationships, and improves teamwork ➡️ How to navigate conversations when power dynamics are involved Whether you're leading a team, supporting a friend, or navigating a difficult conversation, listening is one of the most valuable skills you can develop. Because when people feel heard, relationships grow stronger, conflict becomes easier to navigate, and better conversations follow. *This... is A Bit of Optimism.* + + + 00:00:00 The Real Difference: Listening to Understand the Person, Not the Argument 00:02:29 Why Most of Us Are Terrible Listeners (And Don't Know It) 00:04:05 The Art of Allowing Someone to Feel Heard 00:05:42 Listening Beyond Words: Tone, Volume, and Subtext 00:06:57 The Trap of Knee-Jerk Problem Solving 00:12:28 The Social Benefit of Meditation: Being Present for Others 00:15:48 Body Language Basics: Square Your Body, Hide Your Phone 00:18:26 Listening With Warm Eyes That Believe in Them 00:22:18 Am I Listening to Be Right or to Understand? 00:26:46 The Four-Second Rule: Using Silence as a Listening Tool 00:29:28 Is There More? The Buddhist Question That Peels Back Layers 00:32:12 Creating a Culture of Self-Reliance Through Listening 00:34:49 Listening With Power Dynamics: Authority Changes Everything 00:35:16 Creating Safety So People Don't Withhold Information 00:36:08 Why People Repeat Themselves: The Signal You're Not Hearing Them 00:37:45 Reflective Listening: When Parroting Goes Wrong 00:41:42 Listening Up: Understanding What Your Boss Is Actually Asking 00:42:08 The One Degree Off Problem: Why Clarity Matters From the Start 00:47:02 Listening Is a Muscle: From Conscious Effort to Second Nature + + + Website: http://simonsinek.com/ Leaderful: https://simonsinek.com/leaderful Podcast: http://apple.co/simonsinek Instagram: https://instagram.com/simonsinek/ Linkedin: https://linkedin.com/in/simonsinek/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/simonsinek Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/simonsinek + + + *About Alex Simon*Alex Simon is the founder of Lifeshop, a school for adult emotional education and teaches emotional intelligence at Yale University. She teaches the emotional and communication skills we all should've learned in school—but didn't. She facilitates experiential workshops on how to have hard conversations, stop people pleasing, listen better, navigate major life transitions, and build healthier relationships. Her sessions are practical, deeply connective, and somehow shockingly fun. When she was 27, Alex created *The Self & Other: In Theory and Practice,* one of Yale's most sought-after courses. In 2025, she founded Lifeshop in New York to bring emotional education beyond the classroom and into everyday life. She also launched The School of Life in New York and leads workshops for organizations around the world. Before dedicating her career to emotional education, Alex worked as a management consultant at Bain and held strategy and operations roles across industries. She has also lived and trained at Plum Village and Esalen and completed dozens of programs in mindfulness, communication, and personal development.

Alex SimonguestSimon Sinekhost
Jul 21, 202648mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 2:29

    The Real Difference: Listening to Understand the Person, Not the Argument

    1. AS

      The thing that I try to remind myself of, of my version of listening with curiosity is, am I listening to understand?

    2. SS

      Same, same.

    3. AS

      Same thing of like-

    4. SS

      Yeah

    5. AS

      ... am I listening so that I can find my points to prove why they're wrong and why I'm right? Or am I listening because I genuinely w- wanna understand where are they coming from?

    6. SS

      Okay, let's say that slower, and let's say that, let's, let, because that is a really important point-

    7. AS

      Okay

    8. SS

      ... which is that am I listening to understand so that I can make my points and be right and make them wrong-

    9. AS

      Yeah

    10. SS

      ... or prove that they're wrong? Or I'm listening to understand... What was the second part? To-

    11. AS

      Or am I listening to understand to genuinely hear where they're coming from

    12. SS

      To genuinely hear where they're coming from.

    13. AS

      Yeah.

    14. SS

      And I think that's a very important distinction, which is not listening to understand the argument-

    15. AS

      Yeah

    16. SS

      ... you're listening to understand the person.

    17. AS

      Mm-hmm.

    18. SS

      Have you ever felt frustrated, angry, dismissed, or misunderstood by someone you're talking to? You're trying to tell them how you feel, or you're trying to give them some feedback or resolve some tension or conflict, and they keep interrupting you or acting like they understand when they don't. Worse, when you point out that they aren't listening to you, they parrot what you said back to you as proof that they are. What you're experiencing is talking to someone who doesn't know how to listen. Here's the bad news. That's most of us. It's true. Most of us are bad listeners. But here's the irony. For a conversation to go better, it actually only requires a minimum of one person in that conversation to know how to listen, that magical art of making the other person feel heard. Instead of being angry that they don't know how to listen, if we were better listeners ourselves, it would help the conversation go better. And if both had the skill, ah, well, that's just joy of joys. But most of us don't bother to spend the time to learn or practice listening because most of us think we're already good at it. Instead of taking a summer hiatus, we're presenting a special five-episode series of A Bit of Optimism to go deep on human skills, the things that help us connect, collaborate, and succeed in any human relationship. That's why I invited Alex Simon to join me, founder of LifeShop, where she teaches emotional intelligence. And over these five episodes, we will tackle some of the messier interactions, like having hard conversations, people pleasing, giving feedback, and taking accountability. And this one, listening. Here's what you can expect from this episode. First, we'll discuss what people ask for and what they want are very often not the same

  2. 2:29 – 4:05

    Why Most of Us Are Terrible Listeners (And Don't Know It)

    1. SS

      thing. At work, for example, people may say that they want a raise or to reduce their workload or want to change their team. But often, when they get those things, it doesn't actually fix how they feel about their jobs. That's because every so often we think our dissatisfaction at work is because of those things when it's actually something deeper. If you know how to listen for that deeper thing, it helps us resolve tensions and find more joy at work, both for others and for ourselves. Next, Alex will teach her four-second rule, a very simple technique to help us become better listeners immediately. It's so simple you can actually use it as soon as you're done listening to this podcast. And finally, we discuss how to listen and how listening can often go haywire when there are power dynamics involved. So settle in. This episode is one of the steps you can take to be a better listener. And I promise everyone in your life will love you for it. And if you enjoy this episode, please remember to subscribe. This is A Bit of Optimism. When you say to somebody, "Are you a good listener?" Most people are like, "Yeah, I'm a good listener."

    2. AS

      Really? I think most people know [laughs] -

    3. SS

      You think most people know?

    4. AS

      ... they're really shitty listeners. Yeah.

    5. SS

      I think men think they're good listeners.

    6. AS

      I-

    7. SS

      Because, because they confuse listening and hearing.

    8. AS

      Yeah.

    9. SS

      Like, "You're not listening to me," and they say back everything they heard-

    10. AS

      Yeah

    11. SS

      ... as proof of listening even though I was watching TV while you were telling me.

    12. AS

      I think most people know on a deep level that they're not that good of listeners, but I think that most people are trying their best. I just think we're not taught how to listen.

    13. SS

      So let's start at a high level and work our way down.

    14. AS

      Yeah.

    15. SS

      Okay? Is that, is that, how does that work?

    16. AS

      That works.

    17. SS

      Okay. So let's

  3. 4:05 – 5:42

    The Art of Allowing Someone to Feel Heard

    1. SS

      define listening.

    2. AS

      Simon [laughs] . I, do you know about me that I really hate definitions?

    3. SS

      I love definitions.

    4. AS

      I know that you do. This is gonna be hard for you then.

    5. SS

      I love a definition.

    6. AS

      I'm-

    7. SS

      You know that I set out once, and this is a different podcast, I set out to define art. It was like my, it is my, one of my core goals in college as a, just a personal thing, was to define art. I'll tell you my definition later.

    8. AS

      Okay [laughs] . I can't wait.

    9. SS

      But yeah, no, I love definitions. You hate them.

    10. AS

      Yes.

    11. SS

      Because without definitions we don't know what things are.

    12. AS

      Okay, I guess what I believe in is under- like, going back to your own experience of what things are, of, like, I don't really need to define listening because you know what it feels like to be listened to, and you know what it feels like to listen.

    13. SS

      But if-

    14. AS

      And you know when you're not listening

    15. SS

      ... but if we're gonna teach somebody something, they have to know what they're going to be taught or what they're re- l- reaching towards. I can't be like, "You'll know when you see it."

    16. AS

      I think you will absolutely know when you see it.

    17. SS

      I think that's true, but I'd still like to define it.

    18. AS

      Okay. You can go for it.

    19. SS

      Okay. So-

    20. AS

      [laughs]

    21. SS

      So this will be the Simon part of the podcast.

    22. AS

      [laughs]

    23. SS

      The definition corner. So let's define what it's not. Uh-

    24. AS

      Yes. Let's do that.

    25. SS

      Okay?

    26. AS

      That sounds great. We can start by not listening.

    27. SS

      Okay. So listening, there, is not waiting for your turn to speak [laughs] .

    28. AS

      True.

    29. SS

      A lot of people sit there and just nod their heads.

    30. AS

      But-

  4. 5:42 – 6:57

    Listening Beyond Words: Tone, Volume, and Subtext

    1. SS

      is the skill, dare I say art, but skill of, um, um, allowing the other person to feel heard.

    2. AS

      Mm-hmm.

    3. SS

      Listening for meaning-

    4. AS

      Yeah

    5. SS

      ... rather than, than... 'Cause, you know, l- listening involves a subtext. Listening to people is, is to look beyond the words.

    6. AS

      Mm-hmm.

    7. SS

      You know? It's paying attention to tone of voice and volume. You know, the, the, the joke I always make that if, if, and we say this at work, which is, if the response is above a five, it's about something else.

    8. AS

      Mm.

    9. SS

      You know? And you have to be able to listen for that.

    10. AS

      Yeah.

    11. SS

      Like, if somebody's going nuts about something like, "You brought me the wrong drink", it's not the r- it's not about the drink.

    12. AS

      Mm-hmm.

    13. SS

      There's something pent up. Um, and, and good listeners are clued into things like that.

    14. AS

      Yeah. What else do you think people do? 'Cause I come to you with something, and instead of listening, what are the other things that other people do?

    15. SS

      I think, uh, okay, other things that are not listening. Um, [clears throat] I, uh, you tell me something and I choo- and I don't explore, I give an answer immediately.

    16. AS

      Mm-hmm.

    17. SS

      So I use whatever you're telling me as just a prompt for me, right? That's not listening.

    18. AS

      Yeah.

    19. SS

      Um-

    20. AS

      I think relatedly, problem solving, like the knee-jerk, like-

    21. SS

      The knee-jerk

    22. AS

      ... "Oh, why don't you just do this?"

    23. SS

      The knee-jerk to fix.

    24. AS

      The, like the fix. Yeah, the fixing, advice giving. I think the

  5. 6:57 – 12:28

    The Trap of Knee-Jerk Problem Solving

    1. AS

      problem with knee-jerk problem solving is that often you're solving the wrong problem, right? Like, someone comes to you, let's say on your team, and they're like, "I'm feeling really overwhelmed by this. I'm feeling overwhelmed by this and this." And you're like, "Okay, well, like, let's just fix this. Like, let's, we can, you can, you want to do it now?"

    2. SS

      Let's change your workload.

    3. AS

      "We can do it today."

    4. SS

      Yeah, yeah.

    5. AS

      And it's like, whoa, we don't actually know what's going on. Like, you're end up solving the wrong problem if you're not actually understanding the problem. And so I think a, a true listener in that situation would be like, "Okay, tell me more. What's going on? What's the context here?"

    6. SS

      We, we had this happen on our own team-

    7. AS

      What happened?

    8. SS

      ... a bunch of years ago-

    9. AS

      Yeah

    10. SS

      ... where we failed to listen.

    11. AS

      Mm.

    12. SS

      And it cau- we lost an employee as a result.

    13. AS

      Okay.

    14. SS

      She told us that she was overwhelmed, and we'll, we immediately went and looked at her workload.

    15. AS

      Yeah.

    16. SS

      We were like, "What?" Like, we adjusted her workload, and we looked at, and we, every time she said, "I'm feeling overwhelmed, I'm feeling overwhelmed," we, we or we, I am overwhelmed. And by the way, she thought too that it was work.

    17. AS

      Yeah. But you can w- with true listening, you can be like, "Okay, what, what's, what's going on on a subterranean level?"

    18. SS

      Yeah.

    19. AS

      You're like, "What are the things actually motivating you? What are the, what is your felt experience?" Creating that 360 view as opposed to just being like the surface level of like, oh, what do you literally think that you want to happen in this situation?

    20. SS

      And h- and here's one of the great values of listening, which is most people actually don't want the thing they ask for. Most people want to feel heard. Maybe the first part is a little bit of a generalization, but the, the point is, is that the number of times in our lives where someone comes to us with a problem or a concern or a feeling, they state it, whether they state it well or badly, they state it, and too many of us go into fix-it mode, especially at work.

    21. AS

      Yeah.

    22. SS

      Especially at work. I think, you know, I think w- we behave slightly differently in our personal lives and I-

    23. AS

      I think we do it a lot in our personal lives. I agree with what you said about oftentimes the thing that we're actually after is to feel understood and heard. And I would maybe disaggregate a little bit further. I think some-

    24. SS

      I love the word disaggregate. I just want you to know it's one of my favorite words.

    25. AS

      Good. [laughs]

    26. SS

      Yeah.

    27. AS

      It's a great new-

    28. SS

      It's very underused.

    29. AS

      Yeah, I agree.

    30. SS

      And it is a particularly good word, disaggregate. 'Cause we know what it means to aggregate, which is to bring things together, but when you hear disaggregate, it makes you sound much smarter even though it's just adding dis to a word we all know.

  6. 12:28 – 15:48

    The Social Benefit of Meditation: Being Present for Others

    1. SS

      I don't know. And throughout a lot of the meeting, she was on her phone under the table, and I'm sitting next to her, so I can see what she's doing. She's not, like, checking in on her grandmother who's in hospital, whatever.

    2. AS

      Mm-hmm.

    3. SS

      She's on social media. I, I, I'm sitting right next to her.

    4. AS

      Yeah.

    5. SS

      Right? And she's looking down a lot of the meeting, [clears throat] and at some point in the meeting we started talking about being present, like, as a concept, and her head pops up and she says, "That's why I love yoga, 'cause it helps me be present." And I'm thinking, "You're an idiot," right? And then it got me thinking. All of these sort of practices that we do, we forget the social benefit of them, and meditation is a big one, right? So if you ask people, like, all the science about the benefits of meditation, it helps you do this, and it helps, helps you regulate all this. But we forget that there's a social component to meditation, because we are both individuals and members of groups at all members, at every member, at every part of the day. So if, if anybody who practices meditation has ever heard anything about it, you know that what you're supposed to do is clear your mind. They say, "Well, it's impossible to clear your mind," so what you do is actually you focus on one thing. It could be your mantra. It could be your breath. It could be a sound. It could be a dot on the wall. It could be a sound. It doesn't matter what it is. Focus on one thing, and if something interrupts that concentration, you have a thought, "Oh, I've gotta go to the supermarket," you label it a thought. You're like, "Ooh, that's my thought. I will deal with it later," and you push it out of your mind, right?

    6. AS

      Mm-hmm.

    7. SS

      And at the end of this, you may, if you're lucky, get the feeling of being present, right? Which is, "Ah, I'm so present." My attitude is you are not present ... The s- the pro-social component of it is, the social component of it is you are not present until someone else says you are, and the reason we practice meditation-

    8. AS

      Mm-hmm

    9. SS

      ... is so that we can be there for someone else. So for example, someone comes to you and says, "Something great happened in my life," or, "I'm really struggling in my life," or, "This thing went horribly wrong at work," and now that practice of meditation that you've been doing, you can apply here, which is you're focused on one thing and one thing only, what the person is telling you.

    10. AS

      Mm-hmm.

    11. SS

      And when you have your own thought of something you wanna contriblu- contribute, you label it a thought, you put it out of your mind, and you're like, "I'll deal with it later."

    12. AS

      Mm-hmm.

    13. SS

      And you know that you have been present, and all of that practice has been worth it. At the end of the conversation, somebody says to you, "Thank you for listening. Boy, I really ... Wow, I really appreciate this." And that deeply meditative practice makes us better listeners, because we understand that it's not about the thoughts in our brain. It's about the one thing we're supposed to be focusing on, and there could be a big boom over there, and you just don't, you just don't break focus. And what that does for the person who, who's feeling it, it is the most wonderful, intense feeling to know that someone is completely locked in and dialed in to me.

    14. AS

      Mm-hmm.

    15. SS

      It's such a gift to give to someone, and I think that very often we forget, and when we practice these techniques, both meditation or even some of the stuff that we're gonna talk about, we think it's for us, but it really is also ... Yes, there are benefits to you, 100%. It, it's a powerful feeling to be the listener, but it is a gift to make someone feel understood, seen, heard, valued. Um, and in a work context, the benefits that the company reaps when as many people as possible get to feel that way is overwhelming, and the data proves it. I think we've made a case for listening and the value of it at work. Let's actually, like, uh, pivot here slightly and get into actually how to do it.

    16. AS

      I can share some of my favorite

  7. 15:48 – 18:26

    Body Language Basics: Square Your Body, Hide Your Phone

    1. AS

      listening techniques.

    2. SS

      So I think the, the, the, let's start with the very first one, which is one of the easiest things to do-

    3. AS

      Yeah

    4. SS

      ... which is body language.

    5. AS

      That's so important.

    6. SS

      'Cause if I sit and talk to you like this, even though I'm looking right at you, you don't feel like I'm paying attention.

    7. AS

      Squaring your body to the person you're listening to.

    8. SS

      So square your body to the person you're listening to.

    9. AS

      Um, another big one is wear your hands.

    10. SS

      Ooh.

    11. AS

      Like, people feel safer when they can see your hands. So if you're fidgeting or if your hands are away, like, it activates, like, a little bit of a, like, "Oh, be aware of threat. Be aware of threat," and it's like, "What are you doing with your hands?" Um-

    12. SS

      Interesting.

    13. AS

      Yeah.

    14. SS

      I didn't know that one.

    15. AS

      Yeah.

    16. SS

      I- a- and holding your phone-

    17. AS

      Oh

    18. SS

      ... makes people feel not heard.

    19. AS

      Yes. Holding, I mean, holding your phone, having your phone up-

    20. SS

      Even if your phone is down

    21. AS

      ... you're still losing, yeah.

    22. SS

      Because what's happened, because I know the reason, is because we have the, 'cause we still have the dopamine addiction, so when the phone is present, even if it's down, you're like, you keep sort of every now and then your eyes go to it, because you're like, "I wonder if something came in. I wonder if something came in. I wonder if something came in."

    23. AS

      Mm-hmm.

    24. SS

      And so out of sight, out of mind. Put it in a drawer. Put it in a bag. Turn all noises off. You're just instinctively, you're gonna be more present for that person.

    25. AS

      Yeah. That's a big one. I mean, for me, eye contact is the biggest one.

    26. SS

      [clears throat]

    27. AS

      And when people are not making eye contact, I have a fear of being boring or of, like, not being worthy of speaking. [laughs] I have a fear of being, not being worthy of being heard, and so for me, when someone, like, moves their eyes, it activates this, like, "Oh, well, confirmed."

    28. SS

      But what if some people are just really uncomfortable with eye contact?

    29. AS

      I-

    30. SS

      Like, when I think, I, like, look around the room.

  8. 18:26 – 22:18

    Listening With Warm Eyes That Believe in Them

    1. AS

      Do you wanna hear about it?

    2. SS

      Yeah.

    3. AS

      Yeah, it's called co-counseling, which is basically this idea of instead of paying a therapist to listen to you, which is like a one-way exchange of money to attention, what would happen if we trained everyone in a similar style of listening and holding space for one another, and then we could offer it to each other? So it's, like, peer-based, but it's not like therapy in a traditional sense. It's mostly just listening.

    4. SS

      Yeah.

    5. AS

      And I think it's a really great idea, and so I studied it, and almost all of their whole philosophy of listening comes down to one very simple thing, which is to look at someone and listen with warm eyes that believe in them. And I was like-

    6. SS

      That's a hard c- that's a hard instruction.

    7. AS

      Oh, really? I was like, "That's it? Listening with warm eyes that believe in them?"

    8. SS

      Yeah.

    9. AS

      It's, like, really not that hard. And so when I'm making eye contact, I'm trying to offer someone my attention and show that I'm offering my attention, and the thing that I literally ask myself in my mind is, "Am I listening with warm eyes that believe in them?"

    10. SS

      So for you, it's easy because you're very emotionally evolved. [clears throat]

    11. AS

      Thank you.

    12. SS

      I think for a lot of people, that they will try in earnest to follow the instr- It's, it's almost like a little, you know, uh, Aspergery, which is somebody said, you know, uh, somebody told somebody on the spectrum, you know, "Find common interests, and, and that's how you make friends," and, like, you know, "Do you like battleships? I like battleships. Do you like turtles? I like turtles."

    13. AS

      I like turtles. [laughs]

    14. SS

      It's like, you know, it's like [laughs] the, they're following the instruction-

    15. AS

      Yeah

    16. SS

      ... but it doesn't work.

    17. AS

      Yeah.

    18. SS

      And so, you know, I think the reason we look with barrels is because you, like, make eye contact, and it's just like, "Ugh," right? And I, and I think when you say listen with warmth and what?

    19. AS

      Warm eyes that believe in the person.

    20. SS

      Like, when, if you were to tell s- even me, like, if you were to tell me, "Listen with warm eyes and be believable," I, literally, what's going through my head is, "Listen with warm eyes, Simon. Listen with warm..." And, like, I'm just like, "How the hell do I do that? Do I tilt my head sideways? Do I-"

    21. AS

      Well, try. Try with me.

    22. SS

      Do I-

    23. AS

      Look at me with, like, barrel down eye contact.

    24. SS

      No.

    25. AS

      Yeah, and now try with, with, like, try... Close your eyes for a second maybe, and try to ask yourself, "Okay," no, no. Keep them closed. "How do I listen with warm eyes that believe in the person in front of me?"

    26. SS

      I, I, I would like to adapt the instruction so that I may follow it.

    27. AS

      Okay. Go for it.

    28. SS

      Because I s- I, I... Truth, true, truth, like, that instruction befuddles me. Listen with warm eyes. I, uh, d- I can't follow that.

    29. AS

      Okay.

    30. SS

      I literally don't know what to do. What I think produces the same result is if you told me, "Listen with curiosity," then I'm gonna show up and be like, "All right. Be, just be curious in what they wanna say. Don't judge. Don't worry. Don't fight. Don't fix. Just listen with absolute curiosity. Be a social scientist. Be an archeologist." I think w- what you would get from my eyes is that warmth-

  9. 22:18 – 26:46

    Am I Listening to Be Right or to Understand?

    1. AS

      good. And so if they're saying something and it's like, "Well, no, you don't, like, you don't get it. I, I'm a well-intentioned, good person," and so that makes me feel defensive 'cause I wanna show why my intentions are good.

    2. SS

      Right, right, right.

    3. AS

      And that stops me from listening. So the thing that I try to remind myself of, of my version of listening with curiosity is, am I listening to understand? Like-

    4. SS

      Am, same, same, same, same

    5. AS

      ... same thing of, like-

    6. SS

      Yeah

    7. AS

      ... am I listening so that I can find my points to prove why they're wrong and why I'm right, or am I listening because I genuinely w- wanna understand where are they coming from?

    8. SS

      Okay. Let, let's, let's-

    9. AS

      What are their needs?

    10. SS

      ... let, let's say that slower, and let's say that, let's, let, because that is a really important point-

    11. AS

      Okay

    12. SS

      ... which is that am I listening to understand so that I can, uh, make my points and be right and make them wrong-

    13. AS

      Yeah

    14. SS

      ... or prove that they're wrong, or I'm listening to understand... What was the second part? To-

    15. AS

      Or am I listening to understand to genuinely hear where they're coming from?

    16. SS

      To genuinely hear where they're coming from.

    17. AS

      Yeah.

    18. SS

      And I think that's a very important distinction, which is not listening to understand the argument.

    19. AS

      Yeah.

    20. SS

      You're listening to understand the person.

    21. AS

      Mm-hmm.

    22. SS

      What I find so interesting is we've barely scraped the... We're talking about, you know, squaring your body with somebody, which makes them feel s- uh, heard. That's stage one. We talk about putting away our phones. We talk about our... We haven't even talked about the ears yet.

    23. AS

      Yeah.

    24. SS

      We're barely talking about the ears, and yet all of this prep for listening is eyes and, you know, shoulders and devices. And I think that these things, if, even if we just start there, already someone will feel way more, uh, appreciated and heard before we've even engaged the ears.

    25. AS

      Yeah.

    26. SS

      I find this, that's how difficult listening is. It's a whole body exercise.

    27. AS

      It is a whole body experience, and it is, like, difficult, and then in a different sense, it's also easy 'cause you're just not doing the things that are normally tripping you up. You know? It's like, it is really hard. It's h- so hard, whatever, but it is, like, just put your phone away.

    28. SS

      [laughs]

    29. AS

      Look at the person. [laughs] Like, it's not that complicated. And, and there are certain things that you can do to improve. And I think when I think about-

    30. SS

      But p- people don't prep to listen. When somebody says, "Hey, do you have a minute? I, I got something on my mind. Can I, do you have a minute?"

  10. 26:46 – 29:28

    The Four-Second Rule: Using Silence as a Listening Tool

    1. SS

      more.

    2. AS

      And there are so many simple things that you can do. Like, okay, one of my favorite tricks is the four-second rule-

    3. SS

      Mm-hmm

    4. AS

      ... which is basically the average-

    5. SS

      Mm-hmm

    6. AS

      ... amount of silence that it takes to make someone uncomfortable is four seconds.

    7. SS

      Let's try it.

    8. AS

      So, okay, so the, the way that I think about it is if you're w- If you know that, now you know.

    9. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    10. AS

      If you're willing to stomach the four seconds, which, by the way, are uncomfortable-

    11. SS

      Mm-hmm

    12. AS

      ... then they'll take the conversation in some crazy direction.

    13. SS

      Immediately what goes through my head is, [clears throat] I'll do a, a speaking engagement-

    14. AS

      Mm-hmm

    15. SS

      ... and there'll be a Q&A at the end. And the, uh, the organization that brings me in, they go, "Hey, so we scripted a couple questions to s- to get, to get it going." And I always say, "Don't do that." And they go, "No, no, you don't understand our audience. They're not big question askers. You know, they're engineers or whatever." I'm like, "No, no. Don't, don't plant any questions, please." They're like, "No, but you don't understand our audience. We've been doing this for years, and nobody asks questions." I'm like, "Please don't do anything." Right? And then at the end I'll be like, "Are there any questions?" And I know what a lot of speakers do. They go, "Questions? Come on, guys. Give me a question. Anyone? Any questions? I'm here for you. Ask me a question." And they don't allow that discomfort. And I'll stand up and go, "Any questions?" And it'll be quiet. And then I'll say, "I just want the audience to know, I just want you all to know that I am much more comfortable, uh, sitting in uncomfortable silence than you are." And invariably somebody will raise their hand-

    16. AS

      Yeah. [laughs]

    17. SS

      ... to break the discomfort of the silence and ask me a question. 100% success. It's the exact same thing.

    18. AS

      It's the exact same thing.

    19. SS

      Somebody can't stand it-

    20. AS

      Yeah

    21. SS

      ... and so they'll break it. And the question is, as the listener, do we have the discipline to sit in that awful discomfort until somebody breaks it and just starts talking?

    22. AS

      It's really amazing, and I think it works really well with people-

    23. SS

      So good. [laughs]

    24. AS

      It's so good. It, it works really w- or I think it works really well in two situations. First of all, when you're kind of, like, in a rut.

    25. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    26. AS

      Um, and someone, like, let's say someone's talking the whole time and not asking you any questions, and you're, you're asking them questions, you're asking them questions. And then if at some point if you're, you're like, "Okay, I'm just gonna do it." And you sit there and you go, "One, two, three." And by the time it's four-

    27. SS

      In your, in your head. [laughs]

    28. AS

      In your head. Oh, yeah, yeah. In your head, of course. Then by the time it's four they're like, "Oh, what about you?" [laughs] You know? And they, like, haven't asked you a question and you're like, "What about me? What? You've been talking for 30 minutes." And so that's one way it's like-

    29. SS

      This is good on, this is good on dating.

    30. AS

      It's really... Yeah, it's really, really good on date, on dates. That's one thing, and then I think another thing is if you can feel that the person has more to say that they haven't yet revealed to you. And so, like, to me, true listening, it's like panning for gold, of like there is... Gold is, like, the thing that you're supposed to be understanding about the person's experience. And so when you're listening you're kind of just panning. And so listening with patience

  11. 29:28 – 32:12

    Is There More? The Buddhist Question That Peels Back Layers

    1. AS

      and being able to wait those four seconds are also a way of signaling, like, "Hey, I c- I care. Tell me what, what else is going on."

    2. SS

      Yeah.

    3. AS

      As opposed to interrupting, overriding, defending yourself, like, doing all those things that are not listening. One of my favorite other ways to kind of peel back the layers of the onion of what someone's situation is, it's a really beautiful question that comes from a Buddhist monastery in France where I spent several months, and it's the question, "Is there more?"

    4. SS

      Mm.

    5. AS

      If someone says something to you and then you say, "Okay, tell me more. What else? Is there more?" And this is an amazing trick. It's, like, one of my favorite things to do, and I'll often do it many rounds. Like, someone will share something with me, and ag- again, normally, like, if let's say it's a hard conversation. You say something to me. My instinct is to be like, "That's not true. You're wrong. That's not exactly what happened." Like, all of the voices going on in your head that want, want to show them why they're wrong and you're right. And so imagine how relieving to the soul- And like how powerful it can be-

    6. SS

      Mm

    7. AS

      ... when you say, "Okay, what else?"

    8. SS

      When we teach people how to do why discoveries-

    9. AS

      Mm-hmm

    10. SS

      ... we teach listening, 'cause you have to get, you know... And we tell- we taught- we teach them, uh, and I've learned this from why discoveries, which is whatever somebody says, it doesn't matter. You start with the opening question, whatever the question is. They say whatever they say, which is doesn't matter. And then literally for the next half an hour, you're, you're gonna be saying, "What else? Tell me more. Go on."

    11. AS

      Yeah.

    12. SS

      "What else? Tell me more. Go on. What else? Tell me more. Go on." You know? Uh-

    13. AS

      So those are yours, "What else? Tell me more. Go on"

    14. SS

      I mean-

    15. AS

      Yeah

    16. SS

      ... or, or, I mean, and, and-

    17. AS

      Some combination

    18. SS

      ... and some permutation or variation of. It doesn't-

    19. AS

      Yeah

    20. SS

      ... really matter. The, i- is there more? I mean, that's, you know... I mean, I like yours too. And sometimes silence does the job too.

    21. AS

      Yeah.

    22. SS

      Just sitting in the uncomfortable silence is another way of signaling, "Go on."

    23. AS

      Yeah.

    24. SS

      You know? Um-

    25. AS

      And it's magical

    26. SS

      ... and it is, and it is magical. And simply those two words, "Go on"-

    27. AS

      Yeah

    28. SS

      ... meaning I know there's more that you're not telling me, and I give you a safe space to, to, to tell me more. So like, "Hey, boss, um, something went wrong on this project." Uh, "What happened?" "Well, this, this, this, and this happened, and, like, nobody really knows what to do." And the instinct is to be like, "Why don't you guys try this? Maybe that'll work." As opposed to say, "Well, what else?"

    29. AS

      Mm-hmm.

    30. SS

      "Well, you know, the vendor blah, blah, blah, blah." "And?" "Well, da, da, da, da, da." "Go on." "Da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da." You know? And before you know it, not only do they feel heard, they've solved their own problem.

  12. 32:12 – 34:49

    Creating a Culture of Self-Reliance Through Listening

    1. SS

      And, um, I give so many answers that what I accidentally do is create a culture of reliance, where everybody comes to me with their problems and expects me to answer them, and if I don't answer them, they're like, "What the..." Because I'm the one who's created a culture where I just give all the answers so that nobody has to think or problem solve.

    2. AS

      Mm-hmm.

    3. SS

      I've, I've made that mistake.

    4. AS

      Yeah. Whereas, like, when you're actually listening, people can find their own solutions.

    5. SS

      And just, just to, just to put a full stop on it, because other people have made that mistake too, okay, what if you've created a c- because some people who are listening to this, they've been doing everything wrong, even if well-intentioned, trying to give answers, trying to fix, because that's what my job is. I'm here to, for my people-

    6. AS

      Yeah

    7. SS

      ... blah, blah, blah. But now they've created a, a, a, a, a culture of reliance. How do you now reverse it? Okay, you've got some of these new skills that we're talking about, but you've got a culture of, "Well, come on, tell me." And you just are like, "Go on, tell me else." No, no. N- n- no. Tell me. Just tell me.

    8. AS

      Mm-hmm.

    9. SS

      I mean, I've had people say that to me, "Just tell me." Right? And that was my fault. And to reverse the culture, you have to signal that you're gonna reverse the culture.

    10. AS

      Mm.

    11. SS

      So I did it out loud. I'm like, "I have realized, I've come to realize, that we have a culture where people come to me with their problems, and I naively answer the questions."

    12. AS

      Mm.

    13. SS

      "And I'm going to practice, um, hearing and helping you come to the solutions yourself by asking more questions. So start getting used to it, 'cause it's gonna change." And it's un- it's m- it's, I realize that, and I don't blame anybody. I blame myself. Like, I realize that I have been a bad listener, and I'm going to do better so that we can do better. And so I'm signaling that, because people are gonna be like, "What the hell's going..." 'Cause they'll notice the difference in behavior-

    14. AS

      Yeah

    15. SS

      ... and they're gonna think something's wrong. So I, you have to make the announcement that you have come to realize a behavior about yourself, and you are learning to do it differently-

    16. AS

      Mm-hmm

    17. SS

      ... in order to better support the team.

    18. AS

      Yeah, it's like, think about, uh, a coach, like a sports coach. If you are a t- a player on a team, and you kick the ball and you don't kick it very well, the coach doesn't come and kick the ball for you into the net. Like, come onto the field and be like, "No, kick it like this. Here's how you shoot a goal." The coa- the coach is like, "Hey-"

    19. SS

      Try again.

    20. AS

      Yeah. "Then, and I'm gonna teach you how to do it, but I'm gonna stay on the sidelines." And so I think it's, it's a mix sometimes, yeah, sometimes we do need-

    21. SS

      We're talking about listening at work, and listening at work is slightly different than listening at home-

    22. AS

      Yeah

    23. SS

      ... or listening with friends, because at work there very often are power dynamics.

    24. AS

      Yeah.

    25. SS

      Even with good leaders, there's, there's a power dynamic.

    26. AS

      So we have to be aware of it.

    27. SS

      There's no, there's no getting away from it.

    28. AS

      Yeah.

    29. SS

      Right? So is there a difference in techniques in listening up the chain of command, listening down the chain of command, listening across to colleagues?

  13. 34:49 – 35:16

    Listening With Power Dynamics: Authority Changes Everything

    1. AS

      Mm-hmm.

    2. SS

      Like, do I do the same thing always? Like, what if I'm in the position of hierarchical, I'm, I'm in the position of, of influence in, in I have a leadership position? Do I diff- listen differently than somebody who is... And, and what if you're, you know, one or two or three levels down, do I, how I listen up to the boss, do I just nod my head and go, "Uh-huh. Uh-huh"? Like, is listening just taking it all in and not responding? Like h- talk to me about power dynamics and l- and, and listening

  14. 35:16 – 36:08

    Creating Safety So People Don't Withhold Information

    1. SS

      techniques.

    2. AS

      So let's start, if you're in a position of authority, how do I listen to someone who's coming to me with something? I think what I try to think about is how do I create an environment so that they feel safe to tell me what they need to tell me? If it's an environment of fear, then what happens is someone's gonna withhold the information that you need as a supervisor. They're not gonna tell you what actually is going on. So when you feel heard and understood, and your nervous system is not in kind of fight or flight mode, that's how you end up being more collaborative, more flexible, more open to different things, more curious, more able to, like, share your truth. As opposed to when you don't feel that way, when you feel like you're in a threatened state, then that's when you escalate, when you repeat yourself, when you shut down, when you defend yourself. And so when I'm in, listening from a position of authority, I'm trying to scan for what are the things that can allow you to feel safe so that you don't withhold information?

  15. 36:08 – 37:45

    Why People Repeat Themselves: The Signal You're Not Hearing Them

    1. SS

      You said something there that I thought was really interesting, which is when people repeat themselves, and, like, once or twice is fine 'cause you're kinda like, you're in it. But, you know, I've had conversations where somebody's literally saying the same thing over and over and over and over, to the point where I'm like, "I got it, I got it." Like, "I got it," you know? "I, I hear you."

    2. AS

      Yeah.

    3. SS

      And is it that they're stuck? Is it that they're emotional, or is it that they're not feeling h- heard that they keep repeat... Like, I know unless I get a response from somebody, I will keep saying something over and over again in different ways, thinking that they haven't understood me.

    4. AS

      Yeah.

    5. SS

      You know? It could be like, "Can you put the chair back in?" And they say nothing. I'd be like, "Just all you have to do is slide the chair back in." And they don't say anything. Like, "The chair goes over there."

    6. AS

      The chair. [laughs]

    7. SS

      The chair. And they'd be like, you know, I just need acknowledgement-

    8. AS

      Yeah

    9. SS

      ... and then I'll stop. So I guess, you know, when we talk about listening, that doesn't mean you can't speak. You know? It's not just this... I mean, my, I, I had a relationship once where I was saying whatever I was saying, and she said nothing back to me. Her body language was good, her eye contact was good, and she would just say nothing. And I'm saying and I'm saying, and she's just looking at me. And I'm, at some point I go, "Is, is any of this, like, connecting here?" Sh- And she's like, "I'm listening." So part of listening is actually giving feedback. When you say, "Go on, I hear you. Go on, tell me more. Go on."

    10. AS

      Yeah.

    11. SS

      Like, that is a fe- that is feedback. And, um, and reflective listening, saying back in your own words what you think you hear. Um, should reflective listening happen in the middle? Should it happen at the end? Like, when should we reflect back what we think we hear?

    12. AS

      Mm.

    13. SS

      To, uh, to ensure accuracy and make the other

  16. 37:45 – 41:42

    Reflective Listening: When Parroting Goes Wrong

    1. SS

      person feel heard.

    2. AS

      Yeah. I mean, I think reflective listening is one of the best things that you can do when you're building the muscle of listening. Um, and there's so, there's a wide spectrum. Reflective listening, like you said, is when you reflect back what you heard. And so there's so many-

    3. SS

      In your own words

    4. AS

      ... there are many different ways to do it.

    5. SS

      Because parroting is the worst feeling in the world.

    6. AS

      Mm, I think it depends.

    7. SS

      I, if somebody just says my words back to them, I, I just would be like-

    8. AS

      I think if you're, let's say I'm really frustrated at you, and I'm like-

    9. SS

      I'm really frustrated at you, so what you're saying is you're really frustrated with me? I'm like-

    10. AS

      I think that there's something, that there's something beautiful that happens. Okay, what I hear is that you're really frustrated with me.

    11. SS

      [laughs] G- yeah.

    12. AS

      Yeah. How does it feel?

    13. SS

      That would drive me nuts.

    14. AS

      Really?

    15. SS

      Yeah. That makes me feel like, what are you pretending to be a therapist?

    16. AS

      Mm, I think for me it's, again, it's the opposite of doing what normally doesn't work.

    17. SS

      Yeah, I'm frustrated. Can't you hear it in my voice? You, you like-

    18. AS

      And, and normally when someone says they're frustrated, it's like, "Well, why are you frustrated? You did this to me. No, no, no, no, no." And so it's, it's the opposite of, it, it's acknowledging what I'm hearing. It's like, "Okay."

    19. SS

      But I don't need somebody to tell me what I've just told them. I'm really frustrated with you, so I'm hearing you're frustrated with me. It's like-

    20. AS

      I think it depends, it depends on how you do it

    21. SS

      ... yes, therapist, yeah. Whoo, you get a grade A. You know?

    22. AS

      Or what about, what about if someone-

    23. SS

      That would d- that would, that would annoy me. That would make me more frust- That would add anger to my frustration. [laughs]

    24. AS

      [laughs] I hear that that would add anger to your frustration. [laughs]

    25. SS

      So I think, so if so- if, if somebody came to me and said, if I went to somebody and said, "I, I need to talk to you. I'm really frustrated," I just need them to open the door for me to express the frustration. I'd want them to look at me like, "Got it. Let me hear it. What, what's, what's on your mind?" I just need the door to open.

    26. AS

      Yeah.

    27. SS

      I don't need to be, I don't need my frustration to be acknowledged and validated. And I guess this is part of the problem with listening, which is we all have slightly different needs, right? Some people want that. I can't imagine who.

    28. AS

      I love... Yes.

    29. SS

      Do you, you like it?

    30. AS

      I love when someone validates.

  17. 41:42 – 42:08

    Listening Up: Understanding What Your Boss Is Actually Asking

    1. SS

      supposed to do?

    2. AS

      The thing that I'm trying to think about often when I'm listening up is how do I listen for the thing that's being unsaid is, like, what does the strategic alignment actually look like? And so what are their pressures? What is their, what is the context? What is actually being asked of me? It's like the thing of, you know, when you're setting the direction of a boat, and you're one degree off, at the beginning it won't matter, but after you've been charting that course with just one degree off for however many days, you're going the completely

  18. 42:08 – 47:02

    The One Degree Off Problem: Why Clarity Matters From the Start

    1. AS

      wrong direction. And so I think when we're listening up, it's figuring out what is actually being asked of me? How do I make sure I fully understand and that we are completely aligned? That way I'm not wasting all of my efforts. And so that to me is listening up. And then I also think the other thing about listening up is recognizing the kind of impact asymmetry of a situation of your boss says something, and maybe they're saying it in a casual way, and for you it feels like a referendum on your worthiness as a human being, and it really lands with a thud. And something, r- it, you, all of a sudden you stop listening because they've said one tiny thing, and you're like, "Wait, i- is all of my work bad?" And so I think also part of listening up is trying not to let all of those things get in the way of Of being able to fully understand what the situation is

    2. SS

      Great analogies. I've, I've had- I'm, so I'm thinking of real-life experiences. Like I've, I've, I've had an experience with the one degree off-

    3. AS

      Yeah

    4. SS

      ... where I've, I've had it in two circumstances. One where I said something casually, it was a thought, and somebody like three days later brought me back something. And they're like, "Here, I did this." I'm like, "What is this?" They're like, "You asked me to do this." I'm like, "N- no, I didn't." They're like, "Yeah, you said it on, in the meeting." I'm like, "No, I, I didn't."

    5. AS

      Mm.

    6. SS

      They're like, "Yeah, you said it." I'm like, "I mean, the c- the words came out of my mouth. They s- want, not, wouldn't want you to go do anything." So they've spent three days working on something I didn't ask for.

    7. AS

      Mm-hmm.

    8. SS

      And I've also had the other one where I did ask for something and where I've said is like, "Hey, listen, our social media isn't working. I'm gonna show you three posts that suck, and we're not delivering value. Like, the whole idea is to communicate a message, and we're, like, falling flat. Like, let's, let's do something to fix it." And then like four days later, they come back with all the wrong things, right? And when you talk about listening up, it's like, "Got it, boss. We're on it." Like, "Yes, sir. Yeah, we got it. We're g- we're gonna make you happy," right? And that's not what I want. And-

    9. AS

      So what do you want then?

    10. SS

      I, I want people to, to, to ask me as many questions as they need to get clarity.

    11. AS

      Yeah.

    12. SS

      I'm not giving instructions. I'm saying, "We have to fix something," and then I'll try and get it. I'll be like, "Do you have any questions for me?" "Nope, we understand." Like, "Do you have total... You, you know what we want?" "Yep. Yeah, I got it. Yep." And it's just not true.

    13. AS

      And sometimes even as a leader, you don't even have total clarity.

    14. SS

      And I don't-

    15. AS

      Like sometimes, uh, it's something s- someone does something that's not exactly right that allows you to, or even as a client, like then-

    16. SS

      Yeah

    17. AS

      ... you're like, "Oh, no, no, this wasn't it at all." And so that process of listening up to actually get clarification also helps both people.

    18. SS

      A- a- and very rarely are instructions like, "Go put this, you know, square peg in that, you know, square hole. Go do it by Thursday."

    19. AS

      Yeah.

    20. SS

      Like, very rarely is it like that. It's usually like, "Hey-

    21. AS

      What about this? [laughs]

    22. SS

      ... the, the social media should be better," right?

    23. AS

      Yeah.

    24. SS

      Like, "Hey, make the ads work," you know? Like-

    25. AS

      Yeah

    26. SS

      ... "Increase sales." And like, [laughs] "Got it," you know? [laughs]

    27. AS

      [laughs]

    28. SS

      Like, they are amorphous instructions very often.

    29. AS

      Yeah.

    30. SS

      And so I think what would help me and help the team, and this is... A- and, and no matter how many prompts I give, they're, they're not doing the... I'm not getting listened to.

  19. 47:02 – 48:38

    Listening Is a Muscle: From Conscious Effort to Second Nature

    1. AS

      person. Um, there's so many m- more. Figuring out how do you listen with your full body. These are all things that at the beginning require a lot of conscious effort. It's like, "Oh, square my body to theirs. Put my phone away," this and that, and those things help us. And it's a muscle that we can work, and that's kind of the fundamental thing that I believe about everything is like ev- everything is learnable. Everything, everything we can d- we can do better. But just like we don't expect that we'll be able to run a marathon tomorrow, we, we expect that we'll have to go every single day and train and get stronger and improve. And so to me, listening is exactly like that. And at the beginning it re- requires all this conscious attention to, like, do behaviors differently, and then it becomes a little bit more, uh, second nature.

    2. SS

      It's like riding a bicycle.

    3. AS

      It's like riding a bicycle, and then soon, all of a sudden, all of your dynamics have changed, and everyone's like, "You're such a good listener." You know? Or like-

    4. SS

      That's just part of your, that's just part of your persona.

    5. AS

      It just becomes part of your persona.

    6. SS

      Oh, that Alex, one of the reasons I love her, great listener. And it's just part of who you are now.

    7. AS

      Totally. I, I would say good listening is the number one thing that people have complimented me on in my whole life.

    8. SS

      [laughs]

    9. AS

      Like, it's the greatest source of trust and connection and intimacy in my life, and I just wish that everyone c- like, we all want trust and intimacy and connection, and to me, listening is the path that gets you there. And it really is a muscle we can build.

    10. SS

      Which is the reason I wanted you on this podcast.

    11. AS

      Yeah.

    12. SS

      Alex, thank you so, so much. A Bit of Optimism is a production of The Optimism Company, lovingly produced by our team, Lindsay Garbinus, Phoebe Bradford, and Devon Johnson. Subscribe wherever you enjoy listening to podcasts, and if you want even more cool stuff, visit simonsinek.com. Thanks for listening. Take care of yourself. Take care of each other.

Episode duration: 48:39

Install uListen for AI-powered chat & search across the full episode — Get Full Transcript

Transcript of episode tx8AARXz7G4

Get more out of YouTube videos.

High quality summaries for YouTube videos. Accurate transcripts to search & find moments. Powered by ChatGPT & Claude AI.

iOSAndroidClaudeChrome