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Simon SinekTrevor Noah Makes My Brain Hurt | A Bit of Optimism Podcast
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EVERY SPOKEN WORD
65 min read · 13,274 words- 0:00 – 6:48
Why small talk is actually important
- SSSimon Sinek
This is a very deep conversation that pe-
- TNTrevor Noah
You said you don't like small talk.
- SSSimon Sinek
But, but no, no, but people-
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
But p- but I, but I put a, you know, when we promote the podcast, we've got a picture of Trevor Noah-
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
... and we'll put a little clip, and people are like, "I'm gonna listen to this one. It's gonna be so funny."
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs] I mean, we can still make jokes.
- SSSimon Sinek
I love to think, but more important, I love to think about things that make my head hurt. I like really difficult, complicated things that there's no obvious right or wrong, which means I love people who make me think about those things, and one of the best people who does this is Trevor Noah. You may know Trevor from The Daily Show and as a stand-up comedian and bestselling author. What I love him for is for his intense ability to think about things and see things that the rest of us don't see. This episode is intense, and it'll definitely make you think, and it'll definitely make your head hurt in a good way. This is A Bit of Optimism. [upbeat music] Trevor, always a joy to see you and sit down with you. Um-
- TNTrevor Noah
Always, my friend.
- SSSimon Sinek
I've never sat down with you ever, ever, ever and not learned something or had my perspective changed about something because of that insane mind that you have that I so love.
- TNTrevor Noah
It's a lot of pressure on our conversations now.
- SSSimon Sinek
Uh-
- TNTrevor Noah
I feel like one day we should hang out and not talk about anything new or interesting, just so we have like a, you know, we don't want it to be a pressure.
- SSSimon Sinek
We, but we don't, we don't like small talk.
- TNTrevor Noah
I ac-
- SSSimon Sinek
You're not good-
- TNTrevor Noah
I actually like small talk.
- SSSimon Sinek
Do you?
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, you know why? Because, uh, um, maybe like a few years ago, I read on how important small talk is and how, in society, we have diminished the value of small talk. But we don't realize that small talk is what connects us as people, and big talk is what separates us. So if you have the foundation of a lot of small talk, you find similarities. You exist in the same realities. But then if you only have big talk, then you, it's like large ideas. So when you go, "Man, the weather," the other person goes like, "Yeah, I can't believe how beautiful it is." And you're like, "I know, right?" Or you go, "Ah, the weather. Ah, it's just, ah, it's been raining. When is it gonna stop? I know, ri-" In that moment, it's the craziest thing ever. You have literally created reality that you share, and now it's easier to say, "How do you plan to vote?"
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
It's wild.
- SSSimon Sinek
So, so it greases the skids.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, it does.
- SSSimon Sinek
But-
- TNTrevor Noah
So I actually like small talk now.
- SSSimon Sinek
Eh, I mean, like, you and I haven't spent a lot of time together.
- TNTrevor Noah
No.
- SSSimon Sinek
I think socially, outside of, like, seeing each other at conferences and things, we've only ever actually hung out once, and it was spontaneous.
- TNTrevor Noah
It was.
- 6:48 – 16:10
Trevor wonders what people get wrong about Simon
- TNTrevor Noah
Because I, I always wonder what it's like for somebody like you. People consume so much of you, whether it's your writing, whether it's your videos, whether it's... Like, I wonder how many times people don't give you the opportunity to start or have a middling conversation because they just jump straight into, like, a conversation with your work.
- SSSimon Sinek
Which is actually, v- uh, as an introvert, it's actually been very helpful.
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh, you like that?
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah, it's been very helpful because I'm no longer required to start conversations. And people are very nice when they, when they come up to me. Um, but what's interesting, and you t- sort of just touched upon this, which is they have assumptions about who I am, what I like, what I do-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... how I may live my life because they judge me through my work. And for example, people think that I've read every book and that I read every book, right? And they talk to me with that assumption. They're like, "Anyway, this book, I, I'm sure you've read it," you know? They, they'll literally say that to me. And the thing that I held a lot of shame for for many years, and I never was public about it until pretty recently, is I read no books. I have seriously bad ADHD. I've started a lot of books.
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
I finished one book, excluding having to read my own because I had to. But, uh, but I've only read one book cover to cover my entire life and that was Da Vinci Code, which is so good. [laughs] But I struggle to read, and so people just assume because I'm, I write things and I talk about things that I just cons- voraciously consume books.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yes.
- SSSimon Sinek
And I hear people talk about, like, with incredible judgment, like, "People who don't read are, you know, no co-" And then I'm like, "Mm."
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
You know?
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
I'm curious what misperceptions people have about you because of you, the persona that you-
- TNTrevor Noah
Huh
- SSSimon Sinek
... they have of you.
- TNTrevor Noah
I'll say this. Everyone's assumption of me is based on the world that they know me from. So I've, I've realized I don't have a common assumption. So South Africans I think have, like, the best idea of who I am as Trevor because their understanding of me was formed through, like, a sort of natural relationship. I hosted TV shows in South Africa. I, I did stand-up comedy. I w- you know, was in interviews or wha- So people had an idea of who this person is.
- SSSimon Sinek
Did you have fame in South Africa before you came here?
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Okay.
- TNTrevor Noah
Like, I always tell people, I go like, "South Africa is my country in that way."
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah, yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
I'm, I'm, I'm lucky that I have that as my country, you know? They have, like, a f- like, a solid idea of me. A lot of Americans knew me only as Daily Show guy.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
So they had this fixed assumption of me. Some, some still do, you know? And I've learned this by meeting people, is like, it'll always come in the form of, like, a backhanded-ish compliment, but which I still appreciate. You know, someone will come up to me with a firm handshake and they'll go, "You know, I, uh, I didn't expect to enjoy, uh, anything you said because, uh, I don't agree with a lot of your politics. But I, uh, I gotta say, I, I-
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
... I really enjoyed your, your piece. It was, it was good. It was, that was really good. Thank you." And I'm like, "Oh, well, thank you very much. I'm glad you enjoy..." I'm even, I'm even im-
- SSSimon Sinek
That's a compliment. Yeah
- TNTrevor Noah
... I'm even impressed that as a person you are able to see beyond what you thought you didn't like about me.
- SSSimon Sinek
I think that's a high compliment.
- 16:10 – 22:10
How Trevor navigates a complicated world
- SSSimon Sinek
You have an uncanny self-awareness. You notice the patterns and the absurdities in your own life, and I'm, I think when you talk about them out loud, sometimes they're funny, sometimes they're interesting, but I think what they do is the ways in which you've found to navigate life or understand yourself are also valuable to us.
- TNTrevor Noah
Hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And they're valuable to your friends, right? Because you're seeing things that the rest of us are missing. So, like, what are some of the lessons that you've learned that have helped you navigate the world that you think have, have had value in the lives of, of, of your friends or of others?
- TNTrevor Noah
[sighs] I think the biggest thing I've learned that has given me the most reward has been consideration. I'm not always able to execute on it, as in, like, I, I, I don't always make the best decisions. I don't always make the right decisions. Sometimes I don't know at the time, or sometimes I do. But I, I do know I always work from the place of consideration.
- SSSimon Sinek
Explain what that means, or give an example.
- TNTrevor Noah
Um, when I was growing up, my mom drilled into me, through her actions as well, not just through her words, that we were always to consider others. Always, always, always, always, always, always. So, like, everywhere my mom went on, like, the route that she would drive to work, to church, to you name it, every single homeless person knew her in, like, a wonderful way, you know? They'd give her a nickname. They'd be like, "Oh, MaMzo," which means, like, like, "Hey, M-" It's like a, a, a, um, a nickname version of, like, Mama, you know? But it's like, "Hey, MaMzo. Yeah, how are you? Yeah, MaMzo, I need shoes. Yeah, MaMzo," like, and they, like, know her. They, like, know her, and they know her in, like, a human way. It's, it's, it was really interesting to me, but she would just consider. We would, we would be lucky enough to eat out at, like, a, you know, because we didn't always when I was growing up, but sometimes we would, and she would say to me, "Stop eating." She'd be like, "You're full." She said, "Let's save that. This is a lot of food. We can give this to, uh, the guy on the way home." And we would do that. And I'm just a kid watching this. Do you know what I mean?
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
And she would go, "There's an old man, uh, who, who's our neighbor. His grass, his grass is getting too long. We must, we must go help him cut the grass." And I was like, "This lady is insane. We're gonna cut somebody else's grass? Is he paying us?" No, he's not paying us. We're just doing this. He didn't even ask us, by the way. He didn't even seem to appreciate that we were going to do it, by the way. And, and I remember th- th- this one really sticks with me prominently because she said to me, I said, "Why are we doing this?"
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- TNTrevor Noah
Like, genuinely, what, what are we... This is just torture. And she said, "By considering others, you, you are also able to consider yourself." And she said, "If this man doesn't cut his grass, you know what's gonna happen? There's gonna be rats in his, in his yard." And she said, "And do you know where the rats go? They're gonna come to our house as well." And so she said, "I'm cutting his grass for him, but I'm also cutting his grass for us."
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
And so we can live in a world where we say, "We don't cut grass for other people," or we can live in a world where we say, "If I'm able to, I'll cut their grass-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm
- TNTrevor Noah
... so that I also don't experience the rats."
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
And so she said, "So we're able, so I'm gonna cut that grass." And I was like, "Ah, I still don't know about this." But, you know, and, and you know this, I mean, better than most people, but the modeling that a parent shows, like the things they show you, for good or bad, you learn.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm. Mm.
- TNTrevor Noah
Mom's very loud and very big and v- But she knows that, you know? She knows that she's even embarrassing for me when, you know, when I'm like a kid in high school, she's like, "Oh, your mother embarrasses you." Even that for me, I think, was a, was a, a beautiful thing to experience as a child-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm
- TNTrevor Noah
... because it showed me that she at least considered how she was affecting me.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm. Mm.
- TNTrevor Noah
Now, she didn't change it. [laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
You know?
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
She was like, "Oh, you must be so ashamed. Oh, you look at your mother. I come in, I'm dirty, and, uh, the car is horrible, and oh, you must be so ashamed. Oh, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry." And no, she wouldn't change it, but at least I knew.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah, yeah, she was aware.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Th-
- TNTrevor Noah
And so I, I think that for me has been the biggest thing.
- 22:10 – 31:07
Trevor explains that choice is a gift and a curse
- TNTrevor Noah
People will always have their politics. People will always gravitate towards certain issues. People will always form and find different alliances and allegiances. This is the human experience, right? I think the thing that's different now is we have fewer spaces where we blend all of those worlds into something else. D- does this make sense? So I think one of the things we're losing as time moves is we're losing communal community spaces-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- TNTrevor Noah
... where us-
- SSSimon Sinek
A place to come together
- TNTrevor Noah
... us being part of it-
- SSSimon Sinek
Ch- church.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, but even not church, because I'm saying church is, like, also an extension of it-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- TNTrevor Noah
... in my opinion. I think it, what it is, is it's a space where people are allowed to be and are expected to be, regardless of how they think or regardless of what they choose. Because the choice has sort of been made for them.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
Okay?
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
So I often think to myself, one of the greatest gifts and curses a person can get-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm
- TNTrevor Noah
... is the ability to leave their hometown.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
Because you leave your hometown, and now you choose to go live somewhere else. When you've chosen to go live somewhere else, you're now going to encounter other people who've also chosen to go, but they didn't choose to live next to you, and you didn't choose to live next to them.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- TNTrevor Noah
And so now you go, "I hate my neighbor. I wish they would move. I hate my neighbor. I need to move."
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- TNTrevor Noah
"I hate this neighborhood. Ah, I need to get out. I hate this neighborhood. I wish they would change it."
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
But you exist in a state of constantly wishing for the thing or the people around you to change because you believe it's possible.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- TNTrevor Noah
But there's very few people who have that same expression about, like, where they're from from.
- SSSimon Sinek
Oh, that's such a great insight.
- TNTrevor Noah
Do you understand?
- SSSimon Sinek
Home is home.
- TNTrevor Noah
You just go like, "Hey, man, this is what it is." So you go, "Where are you from?" "I'm from a little town in the middle of wherever."
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- 31:07 – 36:56
Hardship versus constraint
- SSSimon Sinek
some sort of hardship that, in, in all of your-
- TNTrevor Noah
Let me, let me think about this
- SSSimon Sinek
... in your plane crash example, Soweto example.
- TNTrevor Noah
So-
- SSSimon Sinek
It's, like, as hardship is relieved, and choice is a, a relief of hardship, then for some reason, our ability to cooperate and put up with each other seems to go down.
- TNTrevor Noah
So I, I will agree with one part of it. I still come back to, I don't even think it's hardship. I think it's just the constraining factor. Here, here's why I say this. Let's say there is an island of mega rich people, and they go hang out together, and they're on this mega rich island, and they do whatever they wanna do, right? It's the mega rich. They're having a great time. If they are confined or constrained in some way, they will find the same thing, and they do find it temporarily. So if you, you've maybe been to them. I've visited them on occasion, but you get these places where people go to these, like, golf resorts, and it's like, "Wow, what is this place?" And in that place, I have found people have a different level of community, a different level of, of enjoyment, a different level of ... It's, like, people buzzing around on golf carts and people meeting, and there's only the four restaurants, and all you can do is choose from one of the four, and so you just rotate. Yeah, we'll do the Spanish place on Monday, and then we always, we always love doing the Italian place on Wednesdays, and-
- SSSimon Sinek
I'll have the eggs again. Yeah
- TNTrevor Noah
... because all of a sudden you're constrained, so there's this weird thing that happens. I even think about it for my life as I go, the great curse is gonna be the choice. The great curse is gonna be knowing that you can choose, so how do you create artificial, like, constraint for yourself to help yourself? Because I don't think it's about hardship at all. I think you can have a good time together.
- SSSimon Sinek
It's constraint.
- TNTrevor Noah
But if you cannot, like, change the people or the situation, it changes your ability to appreciate or get along with the change or the situation.
- SSSimon Sinek
So there's a story about, um, a shoe salesman in Los Angeles in the 1950s. I can't remember his name, but he was a, he was a very successful entrepreneur who, who own- owned a whole bunch of women's shoe stores.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
And, um, a journalist asked him, "What's your secret?" And he said, "Two, not three." And they're like, "What do you mean?" He goes, "If a, if a woman comes into my store, I'll bring her a pair of shoes. She'll try them on, and she'll say, 'Could I see that pair please?' And I'll bring her a second pair of shoes." And she said, "Could I also see that pair please?" And she, and he'll say, "Which one would you like me to take away?"
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh.
- SSSimon Sinek
Because what he found-
- TNTrevor Noah
Wow
- SSSimon Sinek
... is when they had a choice of three, they bought none, and when they had a choice of two, they bought one.
- TNTrevor Noah
Ah, I love that.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right? Two, not three. And too much choice is overwhelming.
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh, man.
- SSSimon Sinek
But the constraint-
- TNTrevor Noah
I need, I need to apply that to my life. You see, that's brilliant. I love it when people find the, the nexus of what, of how you're supposed to do it, 'cause I understood it as a concept, but that's a, it's a nice way to think about it for anything, really.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah, and so what I've started doing in my life is I've tried to s- I've added constraint, right? And I'm, I didn't even realize it until we're talking right now, which is like I've got all these options on the table. Th- pick one. I mean, it doesn't matter what it is.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right?
- TNTrevor Noah
No, I know what you mean.
- SSSimon Sinek
And what I'll start doing is I'll start pairing them off. I'll be like, okay, between these two? Okay, get rid of that one. Okay, between these two? Okay, get rid of that one. Between these two ... And the choices become really easy, and then I get to the final two, and I'm like, "Oh, it's obvious. It's that one." Whereas I'm looking at six or five or four or three, and I'm like, "Ah, but this one gives me this, and that one g- " And I'm playing them off and doing sort of, you know-
- TNTrevor Noah
That's really amazing
- SSSimon Sinek
... pros and cons.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, I love that.
- 36:56 – 54:21
Trevor and Simon discuss the United Healthcare CEO slaying
- TNTrevor Noah
But let's look at the United HealthCare CEO who was assassinated.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm
- TNTrevor Noah
I found it fascinating, and I'll throw all the disclaimers out there.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- TNTrevor Noah
So let's just say this is me using, like, what I like to call, like, my, my lab hands.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
I'm thinking of this more like a-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- TNTrevor Noah
... federal lab.
- SSSimon Sinek
This is a th- this is a thought experiment-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... not, not a, not a social commentary.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah. Forget, forget all of it.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
I just go like, "Wow, what a, what a crazy moment where one person was killed," and I would argue most of the country-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm
- TNTrevor Noah
... was united in, in their joy, elation-
- SSSimon Sinek
Or at least-
- TNTrevor Noah
... frustration
- SSSimon Sinek
... or at least being, quote-unquote, fine with it.
- TNTrevor Noah
Schadenfreude or whatever you want-
- SSSimon Sinek
Which is, which is kind of weird.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah, yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
But I, but I, I think to myself, "Wow, what just happened here?"
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
I'm willing to bet if you asked all those people, let's, let's say we did a cross-section or, you know, we, we selected people from all walks of life-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm
- TNTrevor Noah
... who are happy or fine-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm
- 54:21 – 58:54
How to understand our moral differences
- SSSimon Sinek
The person who voted for Trump can say, "I can tell you why I voted."
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And the person who didn't vote for Trump has to be able to say, "But I understand it."
- TNTrevor Noah
Yes.
- SSSimon Sinek
Because it-
- TNTrevor Noah
And I, or, or even I would even say this, though. I sometimes pose it this way to people who, who don't agree with that. They'll go, "No, I don't understand how you could," because they go, "Because the, the Democrats have a, a more robust policy for doing that, and they're gonna bring the poor up."
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
So I go, "Okay, let's do it another way then. Let's actually do it another way. I, I don't force you to understand. Let's, let's do it another way. Would you agree that this person's concern is real? So now let's not say that they did or didn't do the thing. Let's not, let's not say that you, like ..." 'Cause you'll go like, "No, but it's not true. It's, oh."
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
Do you agree that there are fewer jobs, and people have fewer opportunities-
- SSSimon Sinek
And the disparity is greater
- TNTrevor Noah
... and they can't catch up with inflation-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- TNTrevor Noah
... and towns are d- you know, falling into disrepair, and they're becoming ... Do you agree with that? "Yes, but I, uh, Trump's not gonna fix it." Ah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
Okay, great, but at least now-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yes, yes
- TNTrevor Noah
... you may not-
- SSSimon Sinek
Let's go before the bus
- TNTrevor Noah
... quote, unquote, "understand"- But you do see that these things are real
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- TNTrevor Noah
And I think this is what we struggle with sometimes in life, is we don't realize that issues are real
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- TNTrevor Noah
Politics are an imagined way to solve the issues
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm
- TNTrevor Noah
Right?
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- TNTrevor Noah
But the issue's there, right? Uh, the- an issue's like a pothole. It exists. Uh, the politics is arguing about who pays for the pothole or how we get to fix the pothole
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm
- TNTrevor Noah
But the pothole is very real. And so I think sometimes what we do is we don't spend enough time just acknowledging the pothole, and we spend more time arguing about why the other person thinks the pothole should be f- filled with sand instead of concrete
Episode duration: 58:55
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