Simon SinekWhat Happens When You Bet on Yourself | Ted Lasso’s Brendan Hunt
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
70 min read · 13,692 words- 0:00 – 4:32
Plans vs. Imagination: Choosing the Unknown Over Certainty
- SSSimon Sinek
You're looking at real opportunity, go and do this thing in Amsterdam that's real work, versus stay here for your imagination, and people choose imagination.
- BHBrendan Hunt
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
I am confused by that.
- BHBrendan Hunt
To, uh, offer, offer that view some grace a little bit, 'cause what is imagination but a, but a plan? You know, a plan and, and a vision. I, I think inarguably did not have enough of a plan. I can see the value of having a plan, but I guess it's like, don't, don't be so locked into your plan that you don't recognize an opportunity.
- SSSimon Sinek
It's kinda like strong opinions loosely held, right?
- BHBrendan Hunt
Yeah. Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Like, have a plan, but be open to going off the plan.
- BHBrendan Hunt
That's the way.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah. When we're young, we make a decision about what we want to be when we grow up, and we make a plan to make that happen. The things we study, the opportunities we pursue all go according to that plan. But what happens if the plan is the obstacle to achieving our dreams? Worse, what if we can't see that the plan is the obstacle? Sometimes taking the risk to go wildly off the plan is the best thing we can do for ourselves, which is exactly why I wanted to talk to Brendan Hunt. Most of us know Brendan as Coach Beard from the show Ted Lasso, which is back for its fourth season on Apple TV. Brendan also has a solo show called The Movement You Need, which may hit Broadway in 2027. But none of that would have happened if Brendan had stuck to his original plan. Brendan is living proof that trusting our gut over The Plan may be the single best thing we can do for ourselves and our careers. Brendan took the crazy risk to leave America to take a job in Amsterdam of all places, a decision that nobody thought was a smart career move, and yet it was there that he gained a love for soccer and met Jason Sudeikis. It was his choice to go off the plan that led Brendan to becoming one of the Emmy Award-winning writers, producers, and co-creators of Ted Lasso. The lesson is profound. Sometimes doing things we want to do, the things that others think are unwise, will be the best decisions we make for our lives. If you like this episode, please remember to subscribe. This is A Bit of Optimism. This episode is proudly brought to you by SAP. Is curiosity natural or can it be taught? It turns out anyone can learn to be curious, and it's the curious ones that get more out of life, advance quicker in their careers, and just generally grow as human beings. The more we learn to be curious, it's surprising how many doors open for us. Brendan, it's so good to have you here.
- BHBrendan Hunt
It's great to be here, Simon. Thank you.
- SSSimon Sinek
Uh, I don't think people recognize or know in, how, how wonderfully insane and mad and creative you are. I know some of it [laughs]
- BHBrendan Hunt
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
'Cause I came to see your show in Amsterdam, your one-man show in Amsterdam, which is basically your life story-
- BHBrendan Hunt
Yeah, um-
- SSSimon Sinek
... which is pretty nuts
- BHBrendan Hunt
... till that time at least, yeah. You saw, saw it sometime, my solo show Five Years in Amsterdam, which I wrote starting in 2004 after having lived five years in Amsterdam, and you saw it in '22, '23?
- SSSimon Sinek
Something like that.
- BHBrendan Hunt
And I believe that was my official, like, Viking funeral last performance I was doing of that show. The theater I used to work for out there, Boom Chicago, they had requested it. So yeah, it's my life story up until leaving Amsterdam. Now I'm gonna talk about a show none of you have seen, but it's what, what we're gonna do. Um-
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- BHBrendan Hunt
I like the show very much, but it's also, like, clearly the show of a, of a younger man. But it was fun to do and it was fun to give it a good send-off, and I was glad you saw it.
- SSSimon Sinek
S- so let's back up a little bit-
- BHBrendan Hunt
Sure
- SSSimon Sinek
... which is, you know, one of the things I'm fascinated about people with careers is how many people are living their childhood dreams, and how many of us just sort of like the, sort of the twists and turns of where we find ourselves.
- BHBrendan Hunt
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And how people learn what to say yes to and what to say no to. I think your career is a twisty, turny one. So where did you grow up?
- BHBrendan Hunt
Chicago.
- SSSimon Sinek
So y- and how does a kid who grew up in Chicago end up, for how many years in Amsterdam?
- BHBrendan Hunt
My main chunk was five, but then I piecemealed two more 'cause I kept going back.
- SSSimon Sinek
You kept going back.
- BHBrendan Hunt
Yeah.
- 4:32 – 7:41
The Childhood Dream: From Seventh Grade Play to Second City
- BHBrendan Hunt
I basically knew I was gonna be at least an actor from doing the seventh grade school play, which was The King and I. I played Louis, Son of I. And then it was like nothing really was ever considered, like that was just gonna be it. Um, a huge night of impact for me though was seeing Second City for the first time in eighth grade and just being blown away by what was going on there. That cast included Bonnie Hunt, who was phenomenal that night in particular. And I think that probably introduced the notion to me of like, oh, you can write stuff too. Then, you know, uh, go to Illinois State for college. They have a great theater program. Um, most of the original founders of Steppenwolf all met at Illinois State. The teachers they had were some of the teachers that I still had, you know, this second avenue.
- SSSimon Sinek
And were you setting yourself up for stage or screen, or did, or were you just actor?
- BHBrendan Hunt
Just actor-
- SSSimon Sinek
Okay
- BHBrendan Hunt
... really. But probably with nowhere near enough attention to screen, because by then I'd ex- been exposed to a fair amount of, of theater in Chicago, you know, a steady diet of, of improv and, uh, Second City in particular. But Illinois State, they, they hewed so tightly to the sort of Steppenwolf ethos that, like, there wasn't a camera class, or if there was, it wasn't required. Like, all we were working with was like, you know, kitchen sink, nuts and bolts, passionate at all times, you know, sort of gritty stage acting.
- SSSimon Sinek
Re- real stage work. Yeah.
- BHBrendan Hunt
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That helped my improv, I'd say, and my improv helped my stage acting. And I do f- sort of feel like I am of the stage more than anything else, if I had to, had to describe me. But certainly, like, I like movies and TV, too. [laughs] I just, I just... For some reason, it wasn't even something I, I thought about as much. And even when Steppenwolf people, who were the ones I admired, you know, the most, would show up on TV, I tended not to think of that as part of them, in a way. Even though they would... They'd be great. You know, like Laurie Metcalf in Roseanne. You know, my-
- SSSimon Sinek
Uh-huh
- BHBrendan Hunt
... you know, my mom particularly loved Roseanne. We watched it all the time, and Laurie Metcalf's great on that show. Um, John Malkovich. I think the first movie his I saw was In the Line of Fire, which I don't think he would even call his, his best performance, but he's, he won an Oscar for it, I believe.
- SSSimon Sinek
Did he?
- BHBrendan Hunt
Yeah, yeah. Um-
- SSSimon Sinek
That's a, that was a great film.
- BHBrendan Hunt
It's fun. It's fun.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- BHBrendan Hunt
Not really thinking about camera acting at all. And then in Chicago, after college, I'm, I'm basically always performing every weekend. But sometimes it's with an improv company, or sometimes it's with, you know, um, my theater company that I had. You would hear every once in a while in the improv circles about this place called Boom Chicago. And Boom Chicago, all I knew about it was it was in Amsterdam, and it was founded by some Chicago people. And so they were doing, like, Chicago improv as we knew it out there.
- SSSimon Sinek
So The Second City style, that kind of-
- BHBrendan Hunt
Yeah, best I knew
- SSSimon Sinek
... oeuvre. I used the word oeuvre.
- BHBrendan Hunt
Uh, that's really, really-
- SSSimon Sinek
Thank you
- BHBrendan Hunt
... like, you know, the fact that you called attention to it-
- SSSimon Sinek
I know
- BHBrendan Hunt
... kind of ruined it. Um-
- SSSimon Sinek
I mean, I didn't want people to think I was a snob.
- BHBrendan Hunt
[laughs] Um, I'll, no, I'm gonna throw a French word in later, and it's gonna... We're, we'll be even stevens. But, uh, you know, I knew one dude who'd gone there and come back, and, like, he, you know, I didn't know him that well to, like, get into it with him. But he, like, he, he spoke positively of it. I knew another guy who had gone there and never came back. And like, "Okay, interesting."
- 7:41 – 11:50
The Amsterdam Audition That Changed Everything
- BHBrendan Hunt
But one time when they came around to do auditions, you'd hear when they were in town. You know, they'd come, like, once a year. And they came to see me at, uh, ComedySportz, where I was performing. Well, they saw a bunch of people, but including me, and they asked me to audition. And, you know, my knee-jerk reaction was like, "No fucking way am I going to Amsterdam for a year. That's ridiculous."
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah, for my comedy career.
- BHBrendan Hunt
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
My improv career.
- BHBrendan Hunt
Exactly.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- BHBrendan Hunt
But this is, like, despite the fact that I'd never left the US, and also, like, nothing's really happening to me career-wise.
- SSSimon Sinek
You're doing your small shows on the weekends kind of a thing.
- BHBrendan Hunt
Doing my small shows. I had by then understudied a show at Steppenwolf. Um-
- SSSimon Sinek
Did you have a survival job? Or was, were you able to make money as an actor?
- BHBrendan Hunt
No, I was temping, and-
- SSSimon Sinek
Okay
- BHBrendan Hunt
... oh, yeah, nowhere near making money as an actor. You're, you're getting, like, 20 bucks a show.
- SSSimon Sinek
Oh, okay.
- BHBrendan Hunt
If that. You're blowing that on the, on the beer with the gang after the show. Yeah, but the context of this time when they came around was, like, I'm in the middle of getting divorced. Like, I got married straight out of college, which, as some have told me since then, is a little young. And I was very soon getting divorced out of college. And I also just had my own, like, emotional, you know, childhood baggage that I'd never worked through at all in any way. I was just like, just, you know, running straight ahead, you know?
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- BHBrendan Hunt
Like shows, shows, shows, shows, shows. And so when I went to the audition, which I went to out of a sense of obligation. I'd, I'd heard that, like, every actor should go to every audition they can. Which is, is now I think not, not really that great of, of advice. But I went, and-
- SSSimon Sinek
Play the numbers
- BHBrendan Hunt
... and looking around, it was, there were some people in the room who I was like, "Oh, uh, I've seen that person improvise before. They're really fu- oh, and they're, they're really funny. Oh, okay. All right. Well, this, this is a, a good cohort." And then, you know, before they had us play any games, um, the artistic director, Josie O'Reilly, Australian, um, goddess of improv and comedy in my book. She, her, her spiel about Amsterdam, like, the, just by the time she was done talking, like, I want this more than anything I've ever wanted in my entire life, and got it. And then when I went, I was only gonna go for a year. And yeah, uh, as has been spoiled, ended up staying for five.
- SSSimon Sinek
What was her pitch that made you want it so badly?
- BHBrendan Hunt
Like, fragments of it. One, for one thing, the realization that I would be performing constantly, and that it would be the job.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- BHBrendan Hunt
You know?
- SSSimon Sinek
That they'll pay you enough to l- to, to live.
- BHBrendan Hunt
Yeah. It was like, "Oh, that's appealing." And then, you know, the way she was describing, um, Amsterdam. And, like, by then, Pulp Fiction had come out. Like, all I knew about Amsterdam by then is, like, Pulp Fiction, uh, Anne Frank, John Lennon, and Yoko having their honeymoon there. And for all I knew, those happened simultaneously.
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- BHBrendan Hunt
But hearing her talk about Amsterdam made me, like, the reality of like, "Oh, this is, this is an opportunity to, like, get the hell outta here, actually. And to do it in a place that sounds more amazing than you've given it credit for."
- SSSimon Sinek
Was this a little bit like the cruise ship pitch? Which is like, "Sure, it's a cruise ship-
- BHBrendan Hunt
Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... but you'll get to perform every day." Like, does it, like, did it matter where it was? Or was the, was the pitch partially, "Oh my God, I'm an actor. I'm an improv guy. I get to do the thing I want, make a living doing the thing I want"?
- 11:50 – 16:18
The Beatles in Hamburg: Getting Your 10,000 Hours
- SSSimon Sinek
just how many people who are now famous in America- Have gone through that space. Can you just rattle off?
- BHBrendan Hunt
Yeah. It's quite a batting average. Seth Meyers, and, uh, Josh Meyers, and Ike Barinholtz, and Jordan Peele, and Amber Ruffin. Jason Sudeikis was there for a minute. Golly, there's, there's definitely more. And then there's some people who are, like, maybe not that famous yet, but, like, are much respected in, in improv circles and comedy circle people who know. Allison Silverman, Hedda Campbell, uh, Pete Gross. Oh, Colton Dunn. A lot of people know Colton Dunn.
- SSSimon Sinek
The reason I wanted to say that is I wanted people to recognize that for whatever they're building, whatever they built in Amsterdam, it's like a real thing.
- BHBrendan Hunt
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
And just like most of us know Second City and being in the feeder for Saturday Night Live and stuff like that back in the day, that this was a, this is a real feeder for, for the US entertainment industry.
- BHBrendan Hunt
Yeah. But it was not then. That-
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- BHBrendan Hunt
It was not at, it was not at all. When I started in '99, uh, very, uh, Pep Rosenfeld was one of the founders. He was writing for SNL, and that was a big deal. Then he came back to, 'cause he, you know, was having a better time at Boom. But then in 2001, Seth got SNL, and then it was like, "Huh." Because if you're taking the Boom job, especially back then, you're not, you're not thinking career stuff.
- SSSimon Sinek
SNL is the... Yeah.
- BHBrendan Hunt
You know?
- SSSimon Sinek
You're thinking, "I'm having fun. I'm honing my craft. I'm-"
- BHBrendan Hunt
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
"... I'm getting paid to do the thing that I love. I'm having a cool adventure in Amsterdam. Then I'll come back and focus on my career."
- BHBrendan Hunt
Exactly, yeah. And so to the fact that all these people took this objectively unwise career choice [laughs] and, and it's ended up paying off for them all is, is pretty fantastic, you know? 'Cause it is the thing where you get your chops up. We would have these guest directors, and a couple times they were guys from Second City who I had seen, like, in high school years, you know, who I revered.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- BHBrendan Hunt
Um, one of them was, was a guy named, uh, Ron West, The Doctor, Ron West. And he, um, one time I remember we were walking, I think on Queen's Day, actually, and I think I asked him, like, "Is Boom good for us? Like, is it, are we dumb for being here?" And I think I was in year three by that point, two or three. And he said something I've never forgotten, which is, "It's like the, being The Beatles in Hamburg." And he just meant it in the sense of, like, you're not doing bad shows anymore. Like, you've come here. You've, you're doing all the shows. You're gonna leave here, and you're not gonna do bad shows anymore, which is not 100% true, but it's, but it's pretty true.
- SSSimon Sinek
So what he means is you're honing your craft?
- BHBrendan Hunt
Yeah. Like, I've, I've, like, thought about this a lot, and now I refer to it in my other solo show, The Movement You Need. Uh, look, coming to Broadway in, in 2027 maybe. You get your 10,000 hours.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- BHBrendan Hunt
Uh, you're performing constantly. You are performing for people who, for the most part, have English as a second language.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- BHBrendan Hunt
So you cannot rely on any bag of reference tricks or whatever. You can only exist in, like, what is in the room at this moment, basically, which is-
- SSSimon Sinek
Pure comedy
- BHBrendan Hunt
... which is a great little challenge.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- BHBrendan Hunt
But also, those people who have English as a second language are probably drunk. So you have to work-
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- BHBrendan Hunt
... all the harder to get through to them, which becomes about, like, like some basic stuff like articulation.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- BHBrendan Hunt
You know? But also, um, you know, presence and, and, and, and passion and drive and, you know? And it ends up making your characters a little, a little broad. Um, but still, you're just trying to make that show happen. But then on top of that, and this is still, um, you know, analogous to, to The Beatles in Hamburg, is you, you do occasionally have the night off. And when you have the night off, it is Amsterdam and, like, all, all that that entails.
- 16:18 – 17:00
The Purity of Performing: When You Stop Thinking About the Future
- BHBrendan Hunt
It's part of what's great about doing something where you have no thought about advancement or career. Like, you're just doing your thing.
- SSSimon Sinek
It's the joy, it's the joy of the thing, right?
- BHBrendan Hunt
It's just the joy of the thing. It's the joy of the moment. It's the connection with that audience at that time, and nothing else exists. And oddly enough, by not thinking about the future, sometimes that's how you're better in the future.
- SSSimon Sinek
I think this idea is, is really lost on, on young people today. And, and it's not their fault. There's so much pressure to perform, to make it.
- BHBrendan Hunt
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
How many followers do you have? Do you do, you know, like metric, metric, metric, achieve, achieve, achieve. I mean, I've talked to people, I'm like, "Hey, why don't you take a, a gap year before you go to college?" You know? And they're like, "No, I, I could never do that." W- I'm like, "Why not?" They're like, "I'll be behind."
- 17:00 – 20:01
The Gap Year Myth: Why Leaving Won't Make You Fall Behind
- SSSimon Sinek
I'm like, "Behind what?"
- BHBrendan Hunt
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Like, it's, everything's comparative. I just talked to somebody recently who wanted some advice. You know, she said to me, she came to me with her vision. She's like, "I'm starting a podcast." I'm like, "Great. What's, what's the goal?" She's like, "Um, I wanna have a media empire." I'm like, "Okay. L- I l- I love a, love a vision."
- BHBrendan Hunt
Yeah. Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
I love an outsized, unrealistic vision. We've all had them, you know? And then so she wants to know what steps she has to take in her podcast to serve her media empire. And of course, I mean, you know exactly where the advice is going, is like, "Well, why don't you just start by making a good podcast-"
- BHBrendan Hunt
Yeah, yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
"... and don't worry about the media empire?"
- BHBrendan Hunt
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
And we talked it through, and I, I think there's an under appreciation for the joy of the beginnings of our careers.
- BHBrendan Hunt
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And I see it a lot in very senior people, people who've made it. The lawyer who knows how to win the case, the investor who knows how to make a deal, the, you know, the screenwriter who knows how to write a script. I look at a lot of these people who've made it, and they're bored. They're bored because sure there's challenges now and then, but what they miss was this, was the beginning. What they miss was that was the fun.
- BHBrendan Hunt
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
And it was stressful, and you're full of ambition and piss and vinegar, and you had no idea where it was going, and it was, it goes back to The Beatles in Hamburg. It's the purity of what we were learning to do was so much fun. And when you're good at it, it's just not as fun anymore.
- BHBrendan Hunt
Yeah. And that comes from, you know, perhaps the fact that you are working, you know, w- with that adrenaline, like, to the limit of your potential really. You know? It's like it's that churn of-
- SSSimon Sinek
You have no fear
- BHBrendan Hunt
... giving, giving your full self to something-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- BHBrendan Hunt
... because there is nothing else. And yeah, it, it rewards you. On the topic of gap year real quick, when people would come to me here asking like, "Hey, should I do Boom Chicago?" Um, uh, I'm like, "Oh my God, yes, you should. I'm like, in fact, don't, but don't just go for one year. The first year you're adjusting. Go for two years 'cause the second year, that's when you get it. That's when you should go." And they'd be like, "Oh, God, but if, you know, I'm gonna lose progress in my, in my career here." And someone had said this to me. I wish I could remember who, but I, I've said it to many people since then. Like, wherever you're leaving, when you come back, it's gonna be the same. It's gonna be the exact same that it was before, and you won't have missed anything. And whatever opportunities are, you know, fated for you, they are, they are fated regardless, you know? And if you just come back an even better performer than you are today, then you're gonna get more gigs. And I found that to be true, you know, every time I left LA 'cause I, again, I would s- I would leave often to, you know, go to Amsterdam for a while. And yeah, nothing changed anytime.
- SSSimon Sinek
I, it's, it's such a, these are, these are such good and nuanced points, right? Which is we fear that we're gonna miss out on the thing that's in our imagination.
- BHBrendan Hunt
[laughs] Yeah. Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right? It's like, well, if I'm not in LA, I'm gonna miss the audition that hasn't happened.
- BHBrendan Hunt
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
And may or may not happen. And this belief that if I stay, all the doors will open, and all the auditions will go my way, and if I leave, I'm gonna lose out on all those opportunities.
- 20:01 – 23:12
Real Opportunity vs. Your Imagination: The Choice That Defines Careers
- SSSimon Sinek
And so you're looking at real opportunity, go and do this thing in Amsterdam that's real work, versus stay here for your imagination, and people choose imagination.
- BHBrendan Hunt
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
I'm confused by that.
- BHBrendan Hunt
To, uh, offer, offer that view some grace a little bit 'cause what is imagination but a, but a plan? You know, a plan and, and a vision. And like I, I, this is what I saw that I was doing.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- BHBrendan Hunt
And now you're, you're t- asking me to open up this part and go do this and come back.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right. 'Cause my plan was Chicago.
- BHBrendan Hunt
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
You know, do the, do the thing, do the shows, improv, and you've thrown my plan off.
- BHBrendan Hunt
Yeah. 'Cause I think, you know, like, if I, you know, looking back at my path, which has worked out, and, uh, in the end, I wouldn't change anything, but I know where I could've made a couple smarter choices. I, I think inarguably did not have enough of a plan. Like, after the spontaneity of Amsterdam, you know, had such great personal rewards for me, you know, just as a person and, and a, and, and as a, as a grown, as a grownup. I think I kinda like stayed spontaneous a little too long in, in LA, so like I can see the value of having a plan, but I guess it's like don't, don't be so locked into your plan that you don't recognize an opportunity that you, you weren't planning on.
- SSSimon Sinek
It's kinda like str- it's kinda like strong opinions loosely held, right?
- BHBrendan Hunt
Yeah. Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Like have a plan, but be open to going off the plan.
- BHBrendan Hunt
That's the way. Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah. Yeah. [upbeat music] We'll be right back, but first we want to share an ad with authenticity brought to you by SAP. Curiosity is a practice, not a personality trait. That's what I learned when I sat down with David Robinson. From engineering to innovation to cloud ERP to his current role as president of customer success in North America, every jump he made was driven by the itch, the desire to learn something new.
- SPSpeaker
I've always been very, uh, just naturally curious. I don't, I never gave it much thought. I rarely say no. And, you know, in a lotta cases, I might learn really fast it's not something I ever wanna do again. Uh, but in other cases, that's like a great experience I can draw upon because that experience then almost is like a currency. You now have something to talk about that you wouldn't have had otherwise.
- SSSimon Sinek
You know, every work review I had-
- BHBrendan Hunt
Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... they always told me I was unfocused. You know, they would say to me things like, "You know, Simon, a jack of all trades is a master of none." I recently learned that that's only half the quote. The full quote is, "A jack of all trades is a master of none, but a master of many is better than a master of one." Quote.
- SPSpeaker
That's the full quote.
- SSSimon Sinek
That's the full quote.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
And I realized I'm not unfocused, I'm just curious. And I think what a lot of people don't appreciate of the value of curiosity is it doesn't have to succeed. You just have to try.
- SPSpeaker
Trying is the success.
- SSSimon Sinek
And trying is, is the success.
- SPSpeaker
Trying is the success. Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
You, and you can't have innovation-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... without curiosity.
- SPSpeaker
Sure.
- 23:12 – 25:45
The NBC Commercial That Started It All
- SSSimon Sinek
being one. Where did the show come from?
- BHBrendan Hunt
In 2013, NBC asks Jason to be part of their ad campaign 'cause they've just gotten the rights for the English Premier League. He said, "All right, I'll do it if I can bring along anyone I want." And they, they said, "Yeah, of course." And so he grabs me and Joe Kelly. All three of us are Americans who are sports fans who went to Amsterdam, and h- having not given a crap about soccer before, like got into it to some degree. Now because I was in Amsterdam for five years, and because I can get really attached to a new hobby, I became a zealot. I over-educated myself. I would watch like really meaningless games because I was just so obsessed.
- SSSimon Sinek
Lots of orange clothing.
- BHBrendan Hunt
Lots of orange clothing. Oh my God. My closet looks like a fucking traffic cone factory. We had a meeting with this ad company, and they had like three sort of just sheets of paper of like, "We think it's, it should be a college football coach, and, uh, he could be doing this thing, or he could be doing this thing, or he could be doing this thing." And this thing over here was he's, he's the coach of a Premier League team even though he knows nothing about soccer. And Jason's like Yeah. Okay. Let's, let's pick that. Um, all right. Thank you." And then him and me and Joe just sat by the pool one day and, like, thought of bits, and Jason's like, "I think his name is Lasso. Ted Lasso." Yeah. Great. 'Cause Jason likes, you know, nouns as last names. You know, largely just took the job 'cause it was like, "Wow, we get to go to England for three days." Go to England, shoot this thing, come back, and, uh, it's, you know, on the scale of what it was, 'cause I don't think it was even a broadcast commercial. It was only on YouTube.
- SSSimon Sinek
But it was for the Eng- an English audience? Ish.
- BHBrendan Hunt
It was for an American audience, but aware that an English audience might be watching.
- SSSimon Sinek
Got it.
- BHBrendan Hunt
Basically. Like, we were-
- SSSimon Sinek
'Cause you, 'cause it, you, 'cause it exaggerated the American-
- BHBrendan Hunt
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... stereotypes.
- BHBrendan Hunt
Yeah. We were, we were trying to be f- you know, we were trying to be faithful-
- SSSimon Sinek
Everything from the accents to the looks to-
- BHBrendan Hunt
... to the English view of what Americans are-
- SSSimon Sinek
Oh, exactly. That's exactly what it feels like
- BHBrendan Hunt
... in hopes that Americans would get a kick out of that.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right. Yeah. [laughs]
- BHBrendan Hunt
Um, so they had us come back and do another one the next year, and yeah, the first one, you know, was just a sketch. It was a loud character. Like, we got six minutes out of that character, and that's all we, we could've gotten. Um, but the second time, we found Ted Lasso in like, a, a s- uh, with a sense of, like, loss. Like, he didn't have his job anymore, and now he really loved England, and also now he's coaching the girls' team, and he's, like, really sensitive to, like, to their needs and stuff, and just kinda opened this new window to the character in a, in a bigger way than we thought. And after that, Jason, you know, gathers me and Joe. He's like, "There's something else here. I don't know what it is, if it's more commercials, if it's a movie, if it's a, if it's a TV show." So we map out a season, six episodes, and six episodes... I mean, really just the first six, but then we were then imagining six more and then, like, a special, which is the exact model of the UK Office. We wrote a pilot, and it sat there for a very long time.
- 25:45 – 26:41
From Boom Chicago to Ted Lasso: The Soccer Missionary Origin Story
- BHBrendan Hunt
Now, now going back a little further, part of why Jason wanted us in there is because, you know, we're sports guys who would talk about sports and then eventually about soccer. But also very specifically, by the time Jason got to Amsterdam, I was already in the weeds soccer-wise, and I had decided I was a soccer missionary for all Americans. And so I would be explaining soccer stuff to him through American sports terms, like, 'cause he bought a, he bought a PlayStation and FIFA for the green room, and it had classic teams on it. And I'm like, "Okay, 72 Ajax, that's like the Showtime Lakers. And, and this Johan Cruyff guy, he's like Magic Johnson." He's like, "Okay, got it." And that paradigm-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm
- BHBrendan Hunt
... of me using American examples to explain, you know, soccer things-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm
- BHBrendan Hunt
... remains the basis for the, for the Lasso-Beard relationship-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm
- BHBrendan Hunt
... still, um, to this day, which is just another weird part of the whole payoff of Amsterdam, you know, because surely me watching all these soccer games-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm
- BHBrendan Hunt
... you know, wa- me watching fucking Leeds versus Burnley-
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- BHBrendan Hunt
... you know, at 3:00 on a Sunday was a waste of time,
- 26:41 – 36:04
Everything Contributes to Everything: The Wasted Hours That Weren't
- BHBrendan Hunt
wasn't it? But in fact, [laughs] it-
- SSSimon Sinek
You're wasting your life.
- BHBrendan Hunt
[laughs] But in fact, all these little, you know, uh, data entries in the soccer encyclopedia in my brain have paid off, uh, enormously.
- SSSimon Sinek
Th- but this goes right back to the thing we were talking about at the beginning-
- BHBrendan Hunt
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... which is everything contributes to everything, right? Who's to know that the going deep and, you know, wasting countless hours, you know, watching Dutch football would then become the relationship between these two characters that have become beloved on American television? I mean, this is what I love. This is goes in, uh, goes back to what we were saying before, which is, you know, you fall in love with the vision of the imagination, but what we forget is, like, all of it contributes to everything. You said, like, you go, you hone your craft, you come back, you're better. Everything in our lives has some sort of purpose later on, y- but who's to know what it will be? And without these weird decisions of spontaneity, none of this would exist. I'm sort of fascinated by the... I don't know what it is. Like, what we're talking about is things that are off the plan, and I think we're sort of too obsessed with plans. Your whole story leading up to this was like, "I knew from a little kid I wanted to be an actor," and the adrenaline of the stage, you know, and the adrenaline of the audience, and then you realize you could write, and you can express all this creativity. And the Amsterdam thing was two things, which was I get to do the thing that I love to do, check, and I get to run away from shit that I don't wanna do, check. And there's this kind of magic which is... They're not necessarily good, quote-unquote, "career decisions" when the career coach or the f- you know, parent is sitting down with you. It's like, "This is my, this is my goal. I'm gonna, I'm gonna do English comedy in Amsterdam, and I'm gonna leave all my problems here and just go start a new life and screw it." And, like, nobody's looking at you going, "I think, I think you got this one all figured out, bud."
- BHBrendan Hunt
[laughs] Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Everybody's look- everybody's gonna be looking at you like, "What are you talking about?" And I think where I'm arriving, and this is why I'm sort of enjoying this, which is who knows?
- BHBrendan Hunt
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
You know, who knows what would've happened if you stayed? Who knows what... You know, who knows?
- BHBrendan Hunt
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
You know?
- BHBrendan Hunt
And I think about that often and, like, 'cause the flip side of it is also, like, if, if once I left Amsterdam, shouldn't I have just gone back to Chicago and gotten, you know, tried to get on the Second City train?
- SSSimon Sinek
And get to... Yeah, exactly.
- BHBrendan Hunt
You know?
- SSSimon Sinek
Go through the p- the-
- BHBrendan Hunt
Yeah. But also, like, you know, maybe even if I did it, maybe I w- I was too high-strung then, [laughs] and I would've pissed people off or, you know? Like, maybe I wasn't the person yet who would've been able to make the most of, of that opportunity. The chaos theory of it, of, like, h- the different ways that things could've gone-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- BHBrendan Hunt
... better or worse, you know, you can lose sleep over that completely. But yeah, sometimes just going with the flow i- is, is right.
- SSSimon Sinek
I- i- in a time where drama and, and conflict is the thing, you know, the, the Great British Baking Show-
- BHBrendan Hunt
Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... the Bake Off, I think it's probably some of the finest television that was ever made in the history of television. Not... I'm saying this to somebody who h- who co- co-
- BHBrendan Hunt
No, we know our place.
- SSSimon Sinek
You... Okay. I was just... [laughs] Ted Lasso is, I promise you, a close second.
- BHBrendan Hunt
Thank you. [laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
But the reason is, is because it's a competition. There are winners, there are losers. Somebody gets voted off the island every week, and yet they help each other. And I think that is, for me, the metaphor for life, which is absolutely compete, absolutely work hard to advance yourself, and help each other along the way. That, to me, is the metaphor for life and the metaphor for career. And the thing that I think we all fell in love with the Ted Lasso show, which is it's a show about optimism. It's a show about positivity. It's a show about taking care of each other, which is quite different than what, especially American television, you know, reality TV show where they make people seem evil in the editing, and they create artificial conflict for our entertainment. And it's a very European thing to have a show that's quite positive without all the artificial conflict, where it's a very American thing to, you know, instigate.
- BHBrendan Hunt
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
And I don't know, was that because the three of you had European experience? Is it because you were frustrated in your own lives? Like, where did that doubling down on optimism, which is a very un-American way to make a TV show-
- BHBrendan Hunt
Mm
- SSSimon Sinek
... where was that? Because we're grateful for it.
- 36:04 – 37:43
Coach Beard: The Character Who Waits and Asks What Does It Need?
- BHBrendan Hunt
I had pictured it that, like, I was gonna have a bunch of, you know, stuff to say and we'd have these back-and-forths. And, uh, Joe Kelly, who is a genius, um, Joe Kelly was like, "Bad news, man. You, you shouldn't talk." [laughs] I'm like, "What?" "Yeah. You, you, you-"
- SSSimon Sinek
But I'm an actor.
- BHBrendan Hunt
[laughs] Yeah. I mean, he's gonna be doing, like, all the talking and speechifying, and the coach who runs the room. You need to be the guy who comes in surgically with, with just, like, you know, the word that, that hits. I was like, "Oh, that, that's 100% right." And that also dovetails with something, uh, Josie O'Reilly would talk a, a lot about at Boom, is like watching a scene. You know, before you enter that scene, ask what does it need? And so Beard is like- ... in the manifestation of what does it need. He just, he just waits. And like right now, um, Ted needs me to learn the rules of soccer. Got that. And like now, what does it need, is I gotta go talk to this Nate guy, you know? And there's a, there's a wonderful, like, selflessness to that that I think is pretty fun. But he's only named Beard because he didn't have a name in the first commercial. You know, he's never referred to. Second commercial, he's referred to, and like what should his name be? And again, we love nouns, so it's Coach Beard. But that's only because I had a beard in the first one, and I only had that beard because I happened to be doing a play that I had written where I played a homeless person. And first time in my life I'd ever have a beard, and because I happened to write that [laughs] play, now I can never shave again. [laughs] So it was a placeholder. Oh. The beard... It was like he's got a beard, call him Beard. Was it a placeholder? It wasn't a placeholder so much as, as it was like- Inspiration ... yeah, it was like, you know, it, it, it was like it doesn't really matter. The, you know, look at the thing, eh. Beard. It's Beard. He's Beard. Great. He's Beard. We didn't know we were, we were gonna do even another commercial more than, you know, certainly not a whole TV series by this point, so
- 37:43 – 44:06
Bringing Yourself to the Character
- BHBrendan Hunt
there was no sense that it would, it would stick. In terms of the larger question of like is it important to me for, you know, a character in, in this dynamic of like being able to contribute to its creation- 'Cause you get to, you get, you get to write whatever you want, yeah ... again, when I was in college, we were awash in Steppenwolf quotes. And there was a John Malkovich quote I remember hearing sophomore year, which was, uh, "Acting is not about trying to become someone you aren't, it's about being someone you are." Which I, you know, as a sophomore especially, I was like, "Whoa." Um, but that's really just, you know, bring yourself to the character. And that- Like who, who would I be in this position ... yeah, yeah. I don't, don't have a symmetrical face. Like I'm not gonna be a lead on most TV shows, which means, in polite casting agent terms, I am specific. So I'm gonna be playing a lot of eccentric characters. And like sure enough, you go to my IMDb, it's l- it'll literally say evil clown, sex murderer, hitchhiker, you know? [laughs] And so since I get to play all these sort of, you know, off-center people, it's a little easier then to, to bring myself to it, you know? It's not like you're Hamlet. You're Hamlet. You were prince, and your, your dad died. Go. You know, I'm trying to find like what's different about, you know, me from this character and like inhabit that. But also, you know, on my secret insides, a little bit like me one way or another. And with Beard, we've just been able to extend that to like okay, I went to college in Central Illinois, so he's from Central Illinois. I went to Europe for a while, and things got a little nuts. And we haven't maybe quite gotten to that with Boom. Oh, no, we have with Beard, 'cause now we know that he knows Dutch, and [laughs] and if you put him in Amsterdam, by the end of the night he's gonna have a David Bowie costume. Well played, by the way. Thank you. That episode was, uh, well played. My favorite. So yeah, it wasn't really a choice or a preference. That, that is nothing, that's just the way, the way it worked out. But I, I think my instinct e- even unconsciously, you know, if I was to write characters for myself going forward, I would, I would still be including my s- a fair amount of myself in them. Yeah, I, I'm so fascinated by... I'm not a performer. I've never acted. Although some would argue because I stand on stage I'm a performer. You're a natural, baby. I'm fascinated by the art of acting and I, and the, the idea of bringing yourself and, you know, some of the things that I find very difficult about acting, which is how do you play a part when you know everything that's gonna happen? Mm-hmm. You know? It's like somebody's about to burst in the door and surprise you. You know that. Mm-hmm. But you have to pretend that you didn't... Like that concept is mind-blowing to me. And it's amazing how few people are good at it because they know, you know? Yeah. And they can't help confuse the... And I'm, I'm fascinated by the, like where you want yourself in it and where you don't. Where is the line where you sort of let go as an actor? Oh, well- Does, does that, um- Yeah, the notion of I would never do that is one that I think, like, an actor can't really let them have. Even no matter how well you know this character even, like, you better think twice before you say that because, like, you might not normally do that, but here are circumstances that are putting you in a position where you have to do that. Right. You know, whatever, whatever it is. Something horrible even. Yeah, exactly. Where is your line? Like, where is your line that would get you to this point where you would do this thing that you wouldn't ordinarily do 'cause this person's line is here? So find that border for your, for yourself. I think that's where I would struggle as an actor because I struggle to disconnect myself from the character. It was like, like, you know, a character that would, you know, do something horrible, violent, or immoral and I was like, "But I would never." [laughs] You know? I c- I could, I can't imagine doing this. [laughs] Then I say, "Well, I guess I could play a character doing that," and you're like, "No, no, no, no. You have to find the circumstance that you would actually do that to play this effectively." And that's what I have such respect for, that you're willing to let your mind go to some pretty dark places to find the motivation to play these characters effectively. I guess that's the craft. Yeah. And, and also, you know, and Jason talks about this a lot too, but, like, we're very, we're very fortunate that we are having this, you know, big ride on characters who are super nice [laughs] you know? Fair point. Like w- I'm not getting stopped in an airport for King Joffrey reasons. Right. People are cheering you when you walk past. Yeah, they're not n- they're, they're not waiting to poison my drink. Right. Um, because they know that's the only way to kill me. As an actor, you know, was there a character you played where it challenged you the person? Mm-hmm. The hardest I've struggled was, you know, to play a part. Might not technically be what you're asking for again because, like, it is another thing that I wrote, but the, the play I wrote where I had the beard called Absolutely Filthy, and the conceit of it is that it's the, uh, Pig Pen gang as grownups but focused on Pig Pen. Excuse me, the Peanuts gang as grownup and focusing on Pig Pen. And focusing on Pig Pen, yeah. Um, and Pig Pen is still dirty. He's so dirty that he's homeless and he's a little bit mentally disturbed, and he finds himself in front of a church where they're having the, the funeral for Charlie Brown. And the whole gang are coming back to this, but they won't let him in because he's, he's disgusting and they're all doing fine. There was a lot of me in that and what my life was at the time which, you know, it was not even conscious when I had the idea, but now looking back it's, you know, it's not even dime store psychology. It, it w- cost barely a nickel, is, like, that was me feeling worthless because so many of my peers were doing- Yeah ... so well. And so the, the, the play has a lot of, like, speeches and, you know, crazy guy revving himself up on a street corner type of stuff. And, like- It was not my biography by any means, but it still was like-
- SSSimon Sinek
How you felt
- BHBrendan Hunt
... plumbing, you know, plumbing a bit of like, like how fucking shitty I felt sometimes about how things were. And this again was, you know, pre-therapy. [laughs] You know? Almost exactly pre-therapy, 'cause then like a year later I got a shrink and-
- SSSimon Sinek
So now you're writing happy shit.
- BHBrendan Hunt
Oh, yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- BHBrendan Hunt
Now I'm a fucking... I'm a dreamboat. Um, [laughs] but-
- SSSimon Sinek
You go from writing being a homeless guy to being a coach. [laughs]
- BHBrendan Hunt
But like getting, getting into that every single night, 'cause that, that show did pretty well, well enough to run at, you know, a few different places. And by the way, uh, footnote, the conceit for his cloud of dirt, you know, the ever-present Pig Pen cloud of dirt, was that's when I learned to be a really good hula hooper. Um, so I had a hula hoop, and we'd h- I'd be like... I would hula hoop the whole show, and no one would ever mention it or acknowledge it. And, uh, yeah. Well, you know, that's when I found out, oh, hula hooping, great for the core. Oh, my abs. My abs in 2012, Simon, oh, you shoulda seen them. They glistened. They were beautiful. Going into yourself can be just as hard as trying to, you know-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- BHBrendan Hunt
... get into someone else.
- SSSimon Sinek
What's the project that you worked on, commercially successful or not-
- BHBrendan Hunt
Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... of all of the things you've done in your career, that if you had one thing that was like this all the time, like you'd be the happiest person alive? Like something that was just... You, you k- you look back at your career and be like, "I wish everything was like that one."
- 44:06 – 46:35
The Art Couple: The Play That Got Away
- BHBrendan Hunt
The next play I wrote was called "The Art Couple," and "The Art Couple" was basically it was Neil Simon before he's written "The Odd Couple" and before he's super famous wanting to be a, a more of an artist. Um, and so he imagines "The Art Couple"... Or he imagines "The Odd Couple," but at the same time he finds out that Vincent van Gogh and Paul Gauguin were mismatched roommates in the South of France. And so his first draft of the O- of "The Odd Couple" is not about Felix and Oscar. It's about Vinnie and Paulie. And the play alternated between being set in the Greenwich Village in the '60s as, uh, as he's writing it, and then seeing some of the play which, you know, had a, a degree of like shot by shot, you know, from "The Odd Couple," but being these two French dudes. Um, I played van Gogh, uh, had a really good time. We had this great cast. And like right now I'm doing the solo show "Movement You Need," which might be coming to Broadway 2027, and it's so fun and so incredible to do. But i- if I had to pick one, I would rather have this one where I get to hang out with other people, you know? 'Cause that... This was a cast of nine, and everybody was great, and everyone was so f-funny, and I, you know, m-made sure everyone had a lot of stuff to do. But then also it got... It was about to move to a big theater in LA, and it got canceled for COVID.
- SSSimon Sinek
Ugh.
- BHBrendan Hunt
Like we were set to open March 18th-
- SSSimon Sinek
Ugh
- BHBrendan Hunt
... of that year. The sets were up.
- SSSimon Sinek
Wow.
- BHBrendan Hunt
We were two days away from tech weekend, and then suddenly at this rehearsal all we can talk about is, uh, the odd combination of Tom Hanks and Rudy Gobert, because those guys had that COVID we've all been hearing of. And the next day everything, everything shut down.
- SSSimon Sinek
What was it about that play, of all the incredible things you've done in your career, and you've had a storied career, and now, like one of the most popular shows on television-
- BHBrendan Hunt
Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... you know, what was it about this play that stands out amongst all those things that that's the thing you wish it was m- you want more of, you want more of that please in your career?
- BHBrendan Hunt
I guess because it was still something where I'm, you know, contributing, you know, a ton to it. I think that's, that's important. I wouldn't wanna be doing something forever that, you know, I can coast on. And, um, it's not solitary. And I guess the only reason I wouldn't choose, um, "Lasso" per se is 'cause like the, the "Lasso" gig, like it takes a lot out of us. Like those of us especially who are like in the cast, and also writers, and also producers, it's a real bear, you know? And, uh, gotta re- relocate your family for a long time and all these things. And like worth it. Love it. If, if you're asking me what's my favorite gig I've ever had, that's my favorite gig I've ever had. But if I was to, to do one thing for the rest of my life-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- BHBrendan Hunt
... it would be a play like "Art Couple."
- SSSimon Sinek
Tell me an early specific happy childhood memory, something specific that I can relive with you.
- BHBrendan Hunt
Sure. In late January
- 46:35 – 47:50
The Purity of Art Over Commercial Success
- BHBrendan Hunt
of 1986, um, which... And every Sunday back then, my mom... My parents divorced when I was two. My mom remarried in '83. My dad came back around, and we would see him every Sunday, me and my younger sister. Um, but this particular Sunday, Mom woke me up earlier than usual. She says, "Get up. Your dad's taking you to the game." The game was the NFC Championship game between the '85 Bears and the LA Rams. I'd been to one Bears game like years earlier that I didn't even remember, and I was besotted with the '85 Bears. I absolutely loved that team, and I was looking forward to watching the game with Dad. I mean, D- Dad was not the most resourceful cat at the time. Um, uh, you know, he did not have a regular job as far as I knew. Just for him to somehow find tickets was beyond imagination. And yeah, we had a, we had a complicated relationship as, as life went on especially, but that day, just a day of, of, you know, so much joy. And I never let go of the surprise of the day. Like the surprise of getting that news when I woke up was part of it all the way through to W- Wilbur Marshall scoring his touchdown, and like, "Holy shit, my dad did this." Now he then, not intentionally, we sort of then traded on that success for a very long time [laughs] before I began to consider some other, uh, you know, misdemeanors. But that, that was, um, a mind-blowing day.
- 47:50 – 54:17
The 1986 Bears Game: A Childhood Memory That Shaped Everything
- SSSimon Sinek
Of all the cool things you... I mean, you had happy times in your life, in your childhood. What, what was it specifically about that one?
- BHBrendan Hunt
Part of it was the, was the event. Part of it was the fact that they actually won, and they didn't just win. They shut out the Rams-
- SSSimon Sinek
Right
- BHBrendan Hunt
... 24-0 after having shut out the Giants 20-0.
- SSSimon Sinek
But you would've, you would've had that experience if you watched on television-
- BHBrendan Hunt
Um-
- SSSimon Sinek
... of the Bears winning.
- BHBrendan Hunt
Yes, but it's m- but it's magnified by being there. And 'cause like the Bears weren't just something I was enjoying. Like we would watch the Bears every Sunday-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- BHBrendan Hunt
... you know, unless they had a Thursday night game or a Monday night game.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- BHBrendan Hunt
So that was married to the rebuilding of my relationship with my dad, was going to, you know, him and my grandma's house and having these Sundays, you know, built, uh, around, you know, either watching the Bears or, if it wasn't NFL season, around watching like "Rawhide."
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- BHBrendan Hunt
So for Dad to come through in that unexpected way, and then for the Bears to come through... 'Cause like at that, at that time, you know, I still never experienced a championship, and this was still a city of, of choking teams. In '83 and '84 consecutively, the Sox and Cubs both lost in the, uh, championship series. To get it, the double dose of, of wins was awesome. And like I remember like walking towards Soldier Field with my dad and like just the mayhem of everyone walking around.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- BHBrendan Hunt
It wasn't the same as going, you know, to a, to a regular Cubs game, you know?
- SSSimon Sinek
And what was it about the play of the- What is the, the Paulie and Vinnie-
- BHBrendan Hunt
Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... Vinnie and Paulie. Uh, of all the cool things you've done in your career and all, like, I mean, talk to me more specifically about what it was about that that you just cling onto with such, you know, with such nostalgia, with such, you know, you have such a connection to it.
- BHBrendan Hunt
Definitely, like, you know, it's, it's the loose end because it got canceled.
- SSSimon Sinek
Sure.
- BHBrendan Hunt
Getting to play with others. It's sort of a sneakily personal show, too, because it is, it is about, um, on some level, a dichotomy of, like, you know, being an artist who doesn't give a shit and being someone who's very aware of their audience. Because Sam Shepard becomes a character in it as well, and Sam Shepard, who, you know, was largely popularized by Steppenwolf and, like, that connection there. So, like, it's... And Neil Simon, when he wrote this play, was a, was a TV writer. It's the part of me that, that, you know, has grown up into someone who, like, has, you know, "Lasso" considerations in the world and, like, you know, all this, like, crowd-pleasing, and the part of me that, you know, came to my artistic self at a school that didn't have on-camera classes.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- BHBrendan Hunt
You know? Like, sort of the dirty way of doing things and the clean way of doing things.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- BHBrendan Hunt
So, like, it's not... It's a comedy, but it's, it, it's not one that is removed from my soul.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- BHBrendan Hunt
You know, there's, there's some of my soul in there, too. And yeah, I don't know. Hearing people's laughs is, is, is more fun than, than not.
- SSSimon Sinek
But you've done comedy.
- BHBrendan Hunt
Mm-hmm.
- 54:17 – 55:59
Making Mom Laugh: When Comedy Became a Need, Not Just a Skill
- BHBrendan Hunt
Probably from the first times I was making my mom laugh. Like, my mom was, as I talk about in "Movement You Need," you know, she was, I mean, she was, she was a mom, of course. She's a, she's a person, and so the, uh, a label like this is rather, um, reductive, but, uh, she's an alcoholic, and her version of alcoholism would, would make her, like, a bit mean. And I know now that she was just, she was transmitting the parenting that, that she got. But the times when I made her laugh, sometimes by accident, as a kid, were, like, the best, you know? It was like, "Holy shit, I just made mom laugh. Okay." And that is absolutely what has, uh, you know, set me on my path, and I, it took me a very long time to realize that. I've only realized it, you know, probably since writing "Movement You Need." And maybe that's why I wanna be doing art couples because, yeah, the sound, the sound of laughter is better than just shooting something and
- SSSimon Sinek
And hoping people laugh later on their own. I get that. It's one of the bad thing- one of the sad things of, like, writing books or making videos is I don't get to see or hear the impact. And when people come up to me and be like, "Your book had an impact on me," it's like it- I'm- it's m- it's- I'm always exciting 'cause I didn't get to... I wasn't there.
- BHBrendan Hunt
Yeah. The first time I got to attend a screening of a Ted Lasso episode, which wasn't until Season 2 because of CO- COVID things-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- BHBrendan Hunt
... it was, like, so jarring, [chuckles] you know?
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- BHBrendan Hunt
Because we've been doing this show, you know, just on our own for a while, and but then hearing a full theater of 500 people, whatever it was, was like, "Oh, shit, this is th- people really do like this. Okay, this is all right."
- SSSimon Sinek
We're all very excited for Season 4 of Ted Lasso. A lasting message from the first three seasons is that belief is something you give people before they've earned it. Now that Ted and Beard are coaching a women's soccer team, how did the believe message show up in your approach to this new story?
- 55:59 – 57:15
Season Four and Belief: Starting Over With a Women's Team
- BHBrendan Hunt
You know, people sort of are like, you know, we're getting asked this sort of, like, question that I don't mean by, by interviews, but, like, by, you know, just f- friends and family really. They don't quite come out and say it, but I know what they're saying of, like, basically a version of, like, "Are you gonna win an Emmy, you know, again?" Like, that kinda stuff. And, like, we never gave a shit about any of that when we were making the show, and, like, we're not gonna start now.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- BHBrendan Hunt
Um, but we also-
- SSSimon Sinek
You mean purity?
- BHBrendan Hunt
[laughs] Oh.
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs] Darn your data points.
- BHBrendan Hunt
And, you know, here we are. We're, we're not entirely starting over, but we're starting, we're kinda starting over, you know?
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- BHBrendan Hunt
Like, with this, with this new team and, and a lotta new stuff. And yeah, you just on a base level have to... You know, the flip side of believe is, is, is trust. You know, we just gotta trust the work and put our heads down and, and trust our instincts and trust the, you know, the people in the writers' room, and then the people in the studio, and the people on the set. So yeah, just that, that's where the belief is for me.
- SSSimon Sinek
There's a great quote of yours, uh, "The conclusion you first draw about someone is often informed merely by what you're bringing to it, and it will lead to your underestimating the full depth of the people you have so judged." What's the other side of unlearning that? What kind of relationship or life does it make
- 57:15 – 59:51
Don't Pick Sides: The Humanity of Making Mistakes
- SSSimon Sinek
possible?
- BHBrendan Hunt
Wow, that is a complicated sentence for me.
- SSSimon Sinek
I mean, that is- I-
- BHBrendan Hunt
Where, where the fuck did I say that? Yeesh.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
Definitely.
- BHBrendan Hunt
Um, all right.
- SSSimon Sinek
Remember that time you said... [laughs]
- BHBrendan Hunt
Yeah. W- We were drunk at three clubs that time-
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- BHBrendan Hunt
... you were recording? Jesus.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- BHBrendan Hunt
I think people often forget that their shit stinks, too. Um, one of the nicest compliments I ever got was from a friend who was one side of a divorce of a marriage between two friends. You know, one of the first, like, oh, two of our friends are getting married, not just your friend marrying someone who-
- SSSimon Sinek
Right, right
- BHBrendan Hunt
... you're gonna get to know. And then they got divorced and, you know, because we were, you know, younger folks, uh, a lot of people, you know, chose their side.
- SSSimon Sinek
Sure.
- BHBrendan Hunt
I, I like to think that when people get divorced in their 50s, whatever, you don't do that anymore. I don't know.
- SSSimon Sinek
You do.
- BHBrendan Hunt
But [laughs] but I did not choose a side, and not really by, by conscious thought. I just never thought to. Like, they're both my friends. They had a thing. Now, also, though, they were not the first people of that generation that I knew to get divorced. That was me, and I got divorced because of mistakes I made. So, you know, a friend said to me, like, "You know what I like about... You know what, what I appreciate you, Brendan? You don't, you don't pick sides." I mean, that was w- you know, the-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- BHBrendan Hunt
... the literal words. And I was like, "Oh, I guess I don't, but I... It's because I bet you made mistakes, and I bet you made mistakes."
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- BHBrendan Hunt
"And I know that because I made mistakes. And since everyone's making mistakes, let's assume that we're not bad people, and, uh, assume that there's a longer journey here for us than just, you know, the, the bad thing that happened yesterday."
- SSSimon Sinek
I really... You know, the, the concept of the morality play is kind of gone, you know? And y- I, again, you're so thoughtful, and there's so... You're so human in the words you write, the characters you play, the things you write, the ideas you bring. I just really, really, really hope you continue to write lots and lots and lots of things outside of Ted Lasso as well, and especially with your new, uh, play that might be on Broadway in 2027.
- BHBrendan Hunt
[laughs] The Movement You Need.
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- BHBrendan Hunt
A Journey into Family and Music.
- SSSimon Sinek
But you, you're so consistent in sort of, like, staying pure, giving it a whirl, and it may or may not become a thing. And, like, even the fact that after four seasons with the pressures must be overwhelming on the Ted Lasso writers' room, you know? That you're like, "No, no, no, we're just gonna write the thing that we like based on the characters we love, and it'll sh- show up how it shows up, and you'll either like it or you won't, but we're gonna do the best job we can with the tools we've got." And that's the way things are written the first time. Like-
- BHBrendan Hunt
Sure. Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... everybody's first effort is that.
- 59:51 – 1:00:49
Staying Pure in Success: Why the Writers Room Ignores the Pressure
- BHBrendan Hunt
But I think that's the only way it would've been interesting to-
- SSSimon Sinek
So then something new for-
- BHBrendan Hunt
... was to start it differently.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- BHBrendan Hunt
And, um, not, yeah, not just new, but also intentionally raising the level of difficulty-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- BHBrendan Hunt
... basically of, of trying to pull it off. And so yeah, it, it definitely was more interesting than if we'd just gone back and, you know, done the same characters again, which would've been fun, you know, to some degree, but-
- SSSimon Sinek
But they-
- BHBrendan Hunt
... not quite as interesting
- SSSimon Sinek
... I think they all aged out of playing on a professional soccer team. [laughs]
- BHBrendan Hunt
Yeah, at some point, [laughs] at some point reality, reality steps in a little bit. Like, wow, no one transferred?
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- BHBrendan Hunt
No one. Okay. All right.
- SSSimon Sinek
No one's been injured? Nothing. Nothing. [laughs] Thank you so much for coming on. Such a joy.
- BHBrendan Hunt
Thank you, Simon. It was great.
- SSSimon Sinek
Real pleasure. As always, thank you for watching. If you liked this episode, please subscribe to A Bit of Optimism for more interesting guests and even more interesting conversations. New episodes drop every Tuesday. But if you'd like more optimism right now, click here to watch another episode. Until next time, take care of yourself, take care of each other.
Episode duration: 1:00:50
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