Simon SinekWhat Happens When You Stop Optimizing and Start Committing | Former LA Lakers President Tim Harris
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
55 min read · 11,244 words- 0:00 – 1:54
The Philosophy of Love First, Win Second
- THTim Harris
When you have these kind of positions like I have with the Lakers is you're around these, like, amazing human beings. You're around people like Phil Jackson. And here's the, the one thing that great leaders, great coaches, it's human first. Phil Jackson, he cared about the human being.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- THTim Harris
You have to love them in order to win. You don't need to win in order to be loved.
- SSSimon Sinek
You have to love them in order to win; you don't need to win in order to be loved. That is, [pensive music] that is about as good as it gets. Most of us have had more than one job, probably even more than a few. We pivot, we hustle, we optimize. Why? Because we live in a world where loyalty to one company, quite frankly, has become a relic of the past, and flexibility has become a professional necessity. But this need for constant reinvention, it can be lonely, and it's definitely stressful and hard work. So what can we learn from someone who chose to stay in one job and learned to build a culture where others wanted to stay, too? That's why I asked Tim Harris to come on the show. He spent 35 years with the LA Lakers, where he rose to become the President of Business Operations, and where he oversaw one of the most dominant dynasties in NBA history. He was there for Kobe, for LeBron, for championships, and in that time, he learned something that has become increasingly rare: what it takes to build something worth sticking around for. Tim proves that the most powerful brands are built through thousands of small, genuine human moments, and the leaders who get that do more than lead people, they inspire them to stay. If you like this episode, please remember to subscribe. This is A Bit of Optimism. [pensive music]
- 1:54 – 4:30
Why Tim Stayed 35 Years With One Company
- SSSimon Sinek
No joke, I've been looking forward to this conversation more than anybody else on the roster, and mainly because you are charming, wonderful, and tell amazing stories. [laughs]
- THTim Harris
[laughs] Thank you.
- SSSimon Sinek
And the day I met you, I was like, "Oh, more of this, please."
- THTim Harris
Wow, that's so kind. That, that, that is amazing. I need to make sure I send my friendship fees over. [laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs] No, it's 100% true. Let's start from the beginning, I guess.
- THTim Harris
Okay.
- SSSimon Sinek
You have basically had one job in your life, right? Basically.
- THTim Harris
Basically.
- SSSimon Sinek
Which was with the LA Lakers-
- THTim Harris
With the Lakers
- SSSimon Sinek
... for a long time.
- THTim Harris
Well, I, yeah, so I guess technically I started initially at the Forum, where the Lakers played, and then I trend... So I was working on the Lakers, more of an emphasis on the building, and then I moved over to the Lakers mid-'90s. But essentially, same company since 1990. I worked from '90 until two months ago.
- SSSimon Sinek
It's a rare thing for people to have one job for such a long, for such a long time.
- THTim Harris
I don't think you... It's, it's super rare. I don't think you see it-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- THTim Harris
... very often.
- SSSimon Sinek
I, I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's a, a bygone era.
- THTim Harris
Yes, yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it-
- SSSimon Sinek
Giving, giving your life to a company.
- THTim Harris
Well, it, yeah, it's a throwback to sort of my father, right? It's a throwback to aerospace. You know, start-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- THTim Harris
... go up, gold watch, move on, right?
- SSSimon Sinek
Funny you say that. You know, I talk about the gold watch, and there's an entire generation who, when we say the gold watch, they have no idea what we're talking about, and I've tested it. I've said, "Hey, how many of you know what I mean?"
- THTim Harris
Wow.
- SSSimon Sinek
So we know what the gold watch is, which is-
- THTim Harris
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... you work for h- however many year, decades-
- THTim Harris
Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... for one company, and upon your retirement, they give you a gold watch.
- THTim Harris
That's what you got.
- 4:30 – 7:54
From Soccer Player to Lakers President: An Unexpected Journey
- SSSimon Sinek
that what your thing, what you wanted to do? Did you wanna be an athlete?
- THTim Harris
I did, and I, I did, and I did, and that's how it ended up. I went to UCLA, okay? And when I was coming out of UCLA, there were, there were two soccer leagues in the US. One was the North American Soccer League, was the NASL, and that was the league that had Pelé, and-
- SSSimon Sinek
Old, Old Pelé.
- THTim Harris
The old Pelé at the-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah, but like actually old Pelé.
- THTim Harris
Yes, corr- [laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- THTim Harris
Right, yeah, with the Cosmos, right?
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah. [laughs]
- THTim Harris
And that league was, at the time I got drafted, that league was struggling.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- THTim Harris
The other league that was sort of propping up soccer in the early mid-'80s was the Major Indoor Soccer League, and the whole idea was you play this sort of, you know, version of soccer i- in an arena, and the idea at the time was to fill dates in an arena. And at the time, in '84, it was on fire. In some cities, the MISL was outdrawing the NBA team.
- SSSimon Sinek
Wow.
- THTim Harris
It was on fire. I got drafted in both leagues.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- THTim Harris
I got drafted in the NASL, and I got drafted by, in the MISL.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- THTim Harris
And I really wanted to play in the outdoor version, but I, it wasn't long for it. I'd said, "Okay, if I'm gonna continue this, I'll just do the indoor version." And I got drafted by the team that was owned by Dr. Buss, who owned the Lakers-
- SSSimon Sinek
Oh
- THTim Harris
... and played at the Forum.
- SSSimon Sinek
Ah.
- THTim Harris
Okay?
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah. I'm seeing where this is going.
- THTim Harris
Dr. Buss was a huge fan of it.And he would visit the locker room. And this is '84, '85. Showtime, the Lakers are, are on fire. And so when Dr. Buss came in the locker room, and that's a big celebrity coming in the locker room. And I remember this one time he would make his rounds and say hello. And I said, "Dr. Buss, how many people did we have here tonight?" And like, I... Like, he would know.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- THTim Harris
I mean, he's the owner of the Lakers. He doesn't know how many the indoor soccer team-
- SSSimon Sinek
Right
- THTim Harris
... drew.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- THTim Harris
I'm sure he just pulled a number out of somewhere. And I said, "Do we make money?"
- 7:54 – 9:39
Coaching Principles Applied to Business Leadership
- SSSimon Sinek
you know?
- THTim Harris
I coach. I coach my kids. I've coached in the past. Obviously, I played, and I, and I played for a lot of coaches. And I think that coaching is a form of leadership. And, and I-
- SSSimon Sinek
Leadership
- THTim Harris
... and I 100% bring a lot of how I coach into how I lead a team in, in the business world. And I, I got a lot of those different principles through coaching because they translate so well from team sports-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- THTim Harris
... to business and how you motivate employees.
- SSSimon Sinek
The, the biggest one being you don't play on the field.
- THTim Harris
Correct.
- SSSimon Sinek
Which I think a lot of leaders forget.
- THTim Harris
Cor- correct. And it's, it's this notion that a good coach is over there.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right. Right.
- THTim Harris
A good coach is o- over there offering encouragement and, and advice and suggestions. A good coach is not standing next to you micromanaging every move. That's impossible.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- THTim Harris
There has to be a, a distance, and a good coach gives it, hi- his or her players authority to go with the responsibility.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah. The thing that I find amazing about some of the winning-most coaches in history, and you look at John Wooden and others like him, that sports, which is a finite game, and the goal, actually the goal is to win-
- THTim Harris
Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... that the coaches themselves, these winning-most coaches ever, were not obsessed with winning. They were obsessed with the team. They were obsessed with the esprit de corps and-
- THTim Harris
Right
- SSSimon Sinek
... all of those things. And I guess in your experience in sports and in business-
- THTim Harris
Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... it... That's hard, right? That's hard to put aside what is the actual purpose of the end of the season and to be like, "Nope, I just care about the team." Like, h- h- where does that come from in some leaders?
- 9:39 – 12:59
The Long Game: Why Great Leaders Don't Day Trade Success
- SSSimon Sinek
And I don't just mean in sports-
- THTim Harris
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... but in, in business as well. Like, that ability to be like, "It's okay. Focus on each other. Focus on taking care of, you know, the fundamentals. Everything will work out." Like, I struggle with that as well.
- THTim Harris
We all do.
- SSSimon Sinek
It's really hard-
- THTim Harris
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... when the pressures are there, and the goals are there, and, you know, you disagree with decisions.
- THTim Harris
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
You know?
- THTim Harris
The ability to, to, to every day have sort of the long view-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- THTim Harris
... of what success looks like and-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- THTim Harris
... not try to day trade in success.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- THTim Harris
Right? And what I just said right then, I could've been talking about team sports, or I could've been talking about business.
- SSSimon Sinek
But there's a game, and there's a season.
- THTim Harris
Yes.
- SSSimon Sinek
Infinite g- Like, The Infinite Mindset, I mean, I wrote about The Infinite Game and-
- THTim Harris
Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... The Infinite Mindset to relieve the stress of needing to play with-
- THTim Harris
Correct
- SSSimon Sinek
... a finite mindset when there is no finish line. But in sports, legit, there is an end of the season, and you want to be ahead.
- THTim Harris
I think so much of that, so much of it is controllable. Now, in sports, there's talent, and talent is talent.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- THTim Harris
And sometimes you're just outmatched talent-wise. But so much of your ability to have success today and throughout the season is, is within your control.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- THTim Harris
Right? And it's, and it's the coach's job to define what that looks like. I think the best coaches and the best leaders, they, they define your role. Like, good teams and good businesses, the members of the team understand what my role is.
- SSSimon Sinek
That's interesting.
- THTim Harris
They understand what my job is.
- 12:59 – 23:20
Kobe's Compartmentalization: Nice Guy Off Court, Competitor On Court
- THTim Harris
gosh. Kobe had this incredible ability to compartmentalize. Kobe understood what, what the goal was a- at any given point in time, and he understood the role that I, Kobe, need to play in order for I, Kobe, to be successful and for the group to be successful, and that that role can change Kobe as the person in that moment.
- SSSimon Sinek
Give me an example.
- THTim Harris
So we have three boys, and one... We were at a, we were at a game. And our oldest, he, Jude, he basketball player. And he was, he was a young guy. And Jude's a- as sweet and as nice of a human being you'd ever wanna meet. I used to say to Shaul, my wife, like, "He needs a little more grit." Holistically, we're trying to raise y- nice young men, but I wish he had a little more grit, right? And that nice young man part is gonna serve him well, but when he's playing basketball, l- wish he had a little more grit. And so we were at the arena before a game, and Kobe was standing there, and we, he would say hello, and h- he asked Jude how he's doing. And Jude says, "Good, playing," da, da, da. And, and, and I said, "You know, Kobe, he needs a little more bite." And Kobe's standing next to the sideline. He sto- Kobe's standing on the court next to the sideline, and he said, "Jude, this is how I look at it. When I'm on the court, asshole." And he literally stepped off of the court, "Nice guy." Stepped back on, "Asshole." Stepped off, "Nice guy." He said, "Jude, you can be both. You can be both. Because you are this does not mean you cannot be that."
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- THTim Harris
I think professional athletes at the highest level have this amazing ability to compartmentalize and to leave whatever is going on in here or out there. They check it at the door.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah. It's the thing I find amazing about professional sports, which is the talent. Like, there's, there's lots of great golfers, there's lots of great tennis players, but caving under the pressure.
- THTim Harris
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And these elite athletes, sure, they've got amazing talent, but it's the mental fortitude that they don't cave under the pressure that I find particularly astonishing. You know, bottom of the ninth-
- THTim Harris
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... you're down by two runs. There's, you know, two outs, you know, winning run on base, and you hit a home run. Like, where does that come from?
- THTim Harris
I'm not an elite athlete. I've never been one at that level.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- THTim Harris
And, but I think the elite, elite athletes, they don't, they don't focus on, "Bottom of the ninth, I need to hit a home run."
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- THTim Harris
I, I don't know what they focus on, but I think all they focus on is w- what are the fundamentals? What do I need to do in this pitch?
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- THTim Harris
It's not, "I'm worried about this at bat," I'm worried about this pitch.
- SSSimon Sinek
So what they're doing is they're taking the stakes off.
- THTim Harris
Yes.
- SSSimon Sinek
I read... I, I read. I s- we all say, "I read a thing," th- I probably saw it on the Instagram, but I found this very interesting. A guy who did a study about, uh, elite tennis players. What he did was he looked at, I think, the top 20 or 25 tennis players in the world, and the reality is it's only the top 10-
- THTim Harris
Yep
- SSSimon Sinek
... that keep cycling through-
- THTim Harris
Right
- SSSimon Sinek
... even though the top 25 are still on the list.
- THTim Harris
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
So how come the bottom 15, the best in the world, the f-
- THTim Harris
Yes
- SSSimon Sinek
... the 16th, 17th, 18th best-
- THTim Harris
Right
- SSSimon Sinek
... how come they don't cycle up to-
- 23:20 – 30:31
The Three Unspoken Words That Ruin Any Team
- SSSimon Sinek
good. So it's unfortunately, we can't hear what somebody's saying in their head.
- THTim Harris
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
So when we say, "I need you to do this," they go, "I, I."
- THTim Harris
Okay.
- SSSimon Sinek
As long as, right?
- THTim Harris
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
We, we don't know what they're saying. I know for me, as I'm listening to this, the times that I have said it, and we've all said it, the times that I've said it, instead of just getting away with it, what you're saying is check yourself. Why are you saying, "As long as"?
- THTim Harris
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And if you're saying, "As long as you pay me more than everybody else," the question is, is am I feeling underappreciated? Um, am I feeling unworthy or unseen?
- THTim Harris
Right.
- SSSimon Sinek
Is this my ambition that I'm not meeting my own expectations?
- THTim Harris
Right, right, right, right.
- SSSimon Sinek
And I think the, the idea of if I start saying to myself, "As long as," I wanna inquire to myself, w- okay, w- where is that coming from? Or maybe I just hate this company, and I'm just here temporarily, you know? But I wanna check in with myself. That's a, that's a huge lesson right there.
- THTim Harris
Yes, it is.
- SSSimon Sinek
'Cause otherwise, I become a conditional team player.
- THTim Harris
Okay, but yes, yes. But let's look at it-Simon is the, the team member and, and I'm the, the man- the leader of this team.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- THTim Harris
Because I think we have a tendency to all have as long as, okay? And it's just what we do with our as long as, right?
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- THTim Harris
And how do I kind of manage that and, and y- and try to make sure that I'm, I'm helpful to Simon? What I have found to- useful for me and, and, and helpful I th- I think is I sit with team members and I say, "Hey, Simon, r- right now you're the y- y- we're gonna hire you, we're gonna promote you. You're going to be, you are the director of ABC, okay? You're the director of this. And th- this is what we expect you to do," etc. And Simon says, "Okay, that's great. I wanna do that." And I say, "Okay, Simon, you're coming into this job. You've applied to be this job for the director of ABC. What's next? How does director of ABC set you up for the next thing? What's next after that?" What is Simon looking to use director of ABC-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm
- THTim Harris
... to become? Vice president of ABC? And what I do oftentimes is, is it's, it's a way of, of encouraging someone to have a little bit of self-reflection on their own journey.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- THTim Harris
Okay? So if Simon says, "Look, I wanna be the, the director of seat sales."
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- THTim Harris
And then I say, "Okay, that's, that's tremendous, Simon, 'cause y- we think you could do that. What do you wanna do next? What do you see-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm
- THTim Harris
... that leading to?"
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- THTim Harris
And Simon says, "Well, I wanna be an astronaut."
- 30:31 – 36:45
Building Brand Through Tiny Acts: Turning Sunk Costs + Empty Seats Into Memories
- THTim Harris
Okay, so it's, the game's at 7:30, it's 7:00. Okay? It's 6:45. I've got two tickets in my pocket. Let's pretend they're $2,500 apiece. There's no one standing in line at the box office who's gonna buy, who's gonna spend-
- SSSimon Sinek
Wanna buy the ticket
- THTim Harris
... $2,500 a piece.
- SSSimon Sinek
Correct.
- THTim Harris
Right? So you're gonna-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- THTim Harris
... you're gonna eat those tickets.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- THTim Harris
Right? The money is gonna be-
- SSSimon Sinek
The money's lost already.
- THTim Harris
The money's lost already, so what can you do with that money, right? What, or what can you do with that opportunity? And the way I choose to have al- although I've always chosen to believe this is this, is in the profit and loss statement, yes, that $5,000, $2,500 times two is gone. That opportunity's gone because the game's gonna be played, and that opportunity is lost.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- THTim Harris
But we move those two people down.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- THTim Harris
They become evangelical.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- THTim Harris
And they tell two people, and they go home, and they tell and they tell and they tell.
- SSSimon Sinek
Like, "The Lakers are the greatest organization on the planet."
- THTim Harris
And, and it scales, right? I believe that successful brands are built one tiny little act at a time.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- THTim Harris
It's not, it, there are giant movements, but supported by tiny little acts that just continue to grow the brand.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- THTim Harris
Okay? And when you grow a brand, when a successful company becomes a successful brand, then they are worth more money.
- SSSimon Sinek
Okay, I'm gonna play this-
- THTim Harris
You with me?
- SSSimon Sinek
I'm gonna play this back-
- THTim Harris
Okay
- SSSimon Sinek
... 'cause I, I-
- THTim Harris
All right
- SSSimon Sinek
... okay, so the, the argument is that if you're will- it's kinda like exercise. If you're willing to just keep doing the little bits, it will build up, and if you just trust that you create evangelicals who will, you know, a rich person who s- gets to sit in good seats will tell a couple friends 'cause, you know, "I got to sit on, you know, I got to sit-"
- 36:45 – 38:49
Caught You Being a Laker: Empowering Employees to Create Magic
- THTim Harris
there's a knock on my door, and Steve, who works in the mail room, came in, and he's crying. And I said, "Steve, what's wrong?" He said, "Tim, I did it this weekend. I went out and I saw a father and a son shooting hoops, and the kid had a jersey on, and I went up and I told him, 'I've caught you being a Laker, and I want to give you this.'" And I said, "Steve, that's so amazing. Tell me what ha- like I wanna know what happened." He said, "Timmy, the little boy started crying, and the dad started crying, 'cause we can never get to a game and we can't ever find tickets." And Steve says, "So then I start crying." Steve said, "Tim, th- thank you for letting us do this, because I felt so proud to be able to go out in the community and do this for someone." It can't just be the Tim of the world going up-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- THTim Harris
... and handing out two tickets. This is Steve the mail room guy-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- THTim Harris
... going around in the community. So now the only rule was you had to share your story-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- THTim Harris
... and if you could, get a picture.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- THTim Harris
That was it, and then, and then you could get more. Steve and others, they became addicted to this.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- THTim Harris
They're out on the weekend trying to find people, 'cause it was a, it was a, it was a rush for them.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah. I think what sports has that a lot of companies don't, which is an advantage to you, and it's a warning or a shot across the bow for regular companies, which is your customer, and I, not to demean the, the fan, but-
- THTim Harris
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... your customer, the person who pays-
- THTim Harris
Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... who buys, is right there.
- THTim Harris
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
They're screaming and they're yelling, and you have that very close contact with them.
- THTim Harris
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
You can easily identify your customer-
- THTim Harris
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... out in the market.
- THTim Harris
Yes.
- SSSimon Sinek
You know? A lot of companies can't see their customers. They don't have daily access to their customers. Their customers don't fill arenas multiple times a week, and we forget that the customers are people. We forget that they have families, and emotions, and ambitions, and they become-
- THTim Harris
Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... just dollars and cents and returns on investments.
- THTim Harris
Yeah, yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
And that's how we treat them.
- THTim Harris
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
That's how they feel treated. I'll give you a really funny, uh, example. I was flying home
- 38:49 – 44:16
Remember That Business Is Always Human
- SSSimon Sinek
from Toronto, and the customs is on the Toronto side, and so you have to get to the airport really early, 'cause sometimes the customs line-
- THTim Harris
Okay, okay
- SSSimon Sinek
... is insanely long.
- THTim Harris
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right? And so I got through really quickly, which never happens, which means I was actually early enough to make the, uh, the earlier flight. So I went up to the Air Canada counter, I was flying Air Canada, and I said, "Hey, I managed to get through really early. Do you have seats on the earlier flight?" She goes, "We do." I'm like-
- THTim Harris
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... "Great. Can I get on the earlier flight, please? Going to the same airport."
- THTim Harris
Yep.
- SSSimon Sinek
She goes, "That'll be $600." I'm like, "No, no, no. I'm just, I'm just gonna get on the earlier flight. You know, I've done this-
- THTim Harris
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... a million times. Every airline lets you-
- THTim Harris
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... take empty seats."
- THTim Harris
Sure, sure.
- SSSimon Sinek
She goes, "It's $600." I said, "Look, I'm not gonna pay the $600, clearly."
- THTim Harris
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right? "So I'm either gonna just wait here, or you'll let me on the plane." And she goes, "Well, then you're gonna have to wait." I said, I said, "I just have to ask. What you're telling me is you would rather send an empty seat back to New York rather than make a customer happy and be able to get home an hour earlier."
- THTim Harris
Exactly.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right? I'm just, I just want, I'm just checking in with you, right? She goes, "Sir, this is a business." Right? That's literally what she said to my face.
- THTim Harris
Yeah. [laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
Now, I don't fault her for it-
- THTim Harris
No
- SSSimon Sinek
... because her leaders and her leaders'-
- THTim Harris
Yep, yep
- SSSimon Sinek
... leaders and her leaders'-
- THTim Harris
Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... leaders are telling them, "You treat that human being like a line item on a spreadsheet-
- THTim Harris
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... because this is a business." One of the reasons I love spending time with you, and one of the things that I learn from you, and it's a huge reminder, and that's what I've, I sort of why I wanted you to come on here-
- THTim Harris
Yeah
- 44:16 – 50:09
Meeting People Where They Are With Accountability
- THTim Harris
Like, I know they're not being the athlete you want them to be. Meet them where they are." And I, I took that and apply that to the workplace. Like, I wanna meet each person where they are, but I don't wanna just meet each employee where they are. I wanna meet each business partner where they are. I wanna meet e- each ticket holder where they are, right? Because everyone has a different viewpoint. There's a French author from years and years ago, Anais Nin.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- THTim Harris
And she would say, "We, we don't see things as they are. We see them as we are."
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- THTim Harris
And that's so true.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- THTim Harris
And so every single interaction is, is different. And, uh, taking from Shaul, I had to learn, meet them, meet every single person where they are.
- SSSimon Sinek
So reconcile that with accountability.
- THTim Harris
What do you mean?
- SSSimon Sinek
Because a cynic listening to-
- THTim Harris
Okay
- SSSimon Sinek
... "meet them where they are" might hear that as nobody's held accountable.
- THTim Harris
100% no. 100% no. That is the, the unspoken agreement that we're gonna have. There's going to be... Look, I'm going to, I am going to treat you like a human being, okay? I am not gonna treat you like a disposable, changeable employee, okay? But you have to do your part too. What are you doing to help us as you are trying to help you? There has to absolutely be an accounting. It can't just be chaos.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- THTim Harris
You know, there has to be order.
- SSSimon Sinek
'Cause I've made this mistake. I ran-
- THTim Harris
There has to be order
- SSSimon Sinek
... I ran a hippie commune. [laughs]
- THTim Harris
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
That's what my business was like.
- THTim Harris
Yeah. It has to be orderly.
- SSSimon Sinek
Like, I was... I tried so hard to be nice to everybody that we couldn't meet deadlines. There was no accountability, and it just didn't work. I over-indexed on meet people where they are, you know? And what I realized was that I thought I was actually doing people a service, and what I realized is-
- THTim Harris
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... it actually was bad for the people who worked there because nobody had any sense of accomplishment. Nobody had a sense of-
- THTim Harris
Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... we did this. Nobody had a sense of difficulty and, like, getting through something. And so when we started to add accountability to the mix, still meeting people where they're at, adding accountability, the quality of the team went up, the quality of the work went up, the morale went up, and we could actually meet deadlines and get work done. So it's... And what I've learned is, like, people want to accomplish, and they wanna do good.
- THTim Harris
Do you know what people crave? Crave. People crave caring structure.
- SSSimon Sinek
Caring structure. That's such a nice way of putting it.
- THTim Harris
They do.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- 50:09 – 50:51
You Have to Love Them in Order to Win: Lessons From Phil Jackson
- THTim Harris
where I had with the Lakers is you're around these, like, amazing human beings. You're around people like Phil Jackson. Here's the, the one thing that, uh, you know, great leaders, great coaches, it's human first. It's always human first. They, they care about the human.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- THTim Harris
Read, read about Phil Jackson. He cared about the human being.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- THTim Harris
You have to love them in order to win. You don't need to win in order to be loved.
- SSSimon Sinek
You have to love them in order to win. You don't need to win in order to be loved. That is, that is about as good as it gets.
- THTim Harris
That's-
- SSSimon Sinek
You have to love them in order to win. You do not have to win in order to be loved. I love that. A couple last questions for you.
- THTim Harris
Yes, sir.
- SSSimon Sinek
You've played a key
- 50:51 – 53:37
Stop and Look at the Joy: Championship Lessons and Kobe's Legacy
- SSSimon Sinek
role in ushering in one of the most dominant teams in the NBA. When you look back, what memories stand out that make the Lakers the Lakers?
- THTim Harris
The winning is the, the, like, the easy one is winning, right? Y- it's, the easy is the joy of the winning. You know, the championships are amazing. Right when you win a championship and you, you're standing on the court, and it's chaos. I used to say to employees, "Stop." Like, "Stop, and, and I know it's chaos, but let it be chaos for 30 seconds and just look around and take it in." And I don't mean look around from a macro level. Like, stop on people's faces and look at the joy that th- they're experiencing, 'cause that's what you're going to take with you. You're not gonna take that you had to run and get 30 hats over to the players. The hats will get there. Stop and take a moment-
- SSSimon Sinek
Be present
- THTim Harris
... and be present and look.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- THTim Harris
And that's the joy of how a fan base can surround itself on a team.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- THTim Harris
The place where I saw it was, was born in tragedy.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- THTim Harris
And that's when we lost Kobe.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- THTim Harris
And you saw th- the impact of what an individual, not, not a player who had scored a bunch of points, but what an individual can have on an organization-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm
- THTim Harris
... and how that can bring people together. That's when you saw this team is special. This organization is special. This organization impacts.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm. What an amazing, amazing, amazing journey.
- THTim Harris
Uh, unbelievable. The stories that I've, you know, I've been able to experience and places I've seen and the people I've met and the, just the people I've watched grow up-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- THTim Harris
... in the arena.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- THTim Harris
Right? Incredible.
- SSSimon Sinek
You're so good. I wish more leaders were like you. I do.
- THTim Harris
Really?
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah. I do. I think you're, I think you're a dying breed. Whether it's because you spent your life at one company, or it's how you were raised as a leader, your type used to be more common, and they're becoming less common.
- THTim Harris
Because I think pressure.
- SSSimon Sinek
Maybe it's your personality or maybe, maybe it's not your personality. Maybe it's that we have created work environments that disincentivize and disallow leaders like you and, and, and the, the kind of leaders that I get to write about and celebrate, you know, from showing up. And it's not how business should be.
- THTim Harris
Have we lost all patience?
- 53:37 – 56:35
Have We Lost All Patience? Investing vs Day Trading Leadership
- SSSimon Sinek
Say more. What do you mean by that?
- THTim Harris
Well, we look more like we're day trading than-
- SSSimon Sinek
Oh
- THTim Harris
... investing. Have we lost patience?
- SSSimon Sinek
Oh, yeah. We don't invest. We gamble.
- THTim Harris
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Investing is like I hold onto it-
- THTim Harris
Yes
- SSSimon Sinek
... and, and I'm in-
- THTim Harris
Correct
- SSSimon Sinek
... like, I invest in education.
- THTim Harris
Correct. Correct.
- SSSimon Sinek
I invest in my children's future.
- THTim Harris
Right.
- SSSimon Sinek
I invest in the stock market. What we do is predominantly gambling.
- THTim Harris
Correct.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- THTim Harris
I struggle with this, and, and I'm, I've not been in these situations as it's over on the sporting side, but, you know, this whole notion that coaches are hired to be fired, okay?
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs] Yeah.
- THTim Harris
And I think there's a point in time when you hire a coach, in any sport, and you have the press conference, and you're so excited, and there's so much optimism, and this co- there is a reason that that coach is standing at the podium, that you're so filled with optimism that this coach is going to be the one who does whatever. And you've had meetings and interviews prior to that where you've, you've, you've presumably laid out, "These are the things we wanna do, and this is where we need to go to," and the coach has told you, "Okay, this is how we're gonna get there," and that you've arrived at the, "Okay, this is the person who can do this."
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- THTim Harris
And then, a, after a year, things don't work out, or two years, th- things don't work out, or three years. At some point, you fire him, fire this coach. Three years ago, this was the person who was gonna take you to the promised land.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right. Right, right, right.
- THTim Harris
What changed-
- SSSimon Sinek
Right
- THTim Harris
... that now we're firing this coach? And-
- SSSimon Sinek
Unceremoniously and reasonably quickly
- THTim Harris
... and were there conversations that said, "Look, when we interviewed you, you said you were going to do these things, and you're not doing them. Why?"
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- THTim Harris
Or the coach says, "Look, three years ago, when you interviewed me, you said you were gonna do these things to support-"
Episode duration: 56:36
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