Simon SinekWhat Your Love Life Can Teach You About Work Relationships | Psychotherapist Esther Perel
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
55 min read · 11,430 words- 0:00 – 3:43
The Quality of Our Relationships Determines the Quality of Our Lives
- EPEsther Perel
I'll give you an, a, a little anecdote. I don't think anecdotes de- describe the full reality, but it was a moment for me that was very interesting. My younger son was in kindergarten. He had a very c- best friend. I was convinced he would go into first grade with that same friend. No. I went to the principal. I said, "Why did you separate them? They were getting so along. It was such a beautiful friendship that could become, you know, my childhood friend like I have from, from age six." She said, "They need to learn to make new friends each time." I said, "He's not being trained for mobility. He's a five-year-old who is being trained for long-term relationships. It's not the same." And it was really cl- that was the idea. The idea is not how do you continue a long-standing friendship, it's how do you make new friends all the time? [laughs] I thought that was just-
- SSSimon Sinek
Oh, it's, so, so-
- EPEsther Perel
... an amazing cultural encounter.
- SSSimon Sinek
Wow. So, wow. So we're actually training our young to suck it up and get over it and move on. [laughs] The quality of our relationships determines the quality of our lives. This is an idea that Esther Perel has been trying to instill in us for decades.
- EPEsther Perel
I imagine a world where people can experience a sense of aliveness and vitality in their relationships.
- SSSimon Sinek
She is the guru of human relationships, and she's been trying to teach us in all of her work how we can have successful romantic relationships. I've known Esther for years, and candidly, when we've gone out for dinner, I have definitely taken advantage of our friendship and asked her for relationship advice, and it's always been amazing. And we agree on so many things, which is why I was so excited to have her on the podcast. Our work overlaps so much. We both believe that the quality of our relationships determines the quality of our lives in our personal lives and the quality of our lives at work. Esther believes it so much she's just launched a new product, a set of question cards called Where Should We Begin? At Work. So we go deep. We talk about relationships, happy relationships, struggling relationships, all the kinds of relationships, and how we learn to navigate relationships, how it will benefit us in our personal lives and in our professional lives. This is A Bit of Optimism. [upbeat music] Esther.
- EPEsther Perel
Yes. [laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
You know you're, you know you're one of my favorite people in the world, right?
- EPEsther Perel
[laughs] It is a mutual experience. [laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
You're one of those friends that I... You and I have known each other a long time. Um, I saw you a lot when I lived in New York. It's been more difficult since I've moved to LA. But you're one of those people, you're one of those friends that we don't talk as often as people think we do, but every time we talk, we pick up where we left off.
- EPEsther Perel
That is true.
- SSSimon Sinek
It's as if no time has passed, every single time. And this is no-
- EPEsther Perel
Actually, before we talk, we look at each other and we smile. [laughs] A kind of a smile of recognition and complicity. [laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
You're right. Every time I see you, whether it's at an event or even just on the screen, you're absolutely right, my first, my first reaction is a smile. It's like a, it's like a, a baby being shown a toy.
- EPEsther Perel
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs] I was thinking this morning as I was getting ready, what, like I, I... There's actually a very genuine question that I have for you that pretty much you and only you could answer. Um, you've been doing what you do for a long time, which means you have been doing, helping couples and helping people in relationships and overcome difficulties that they have through many changes of culture and
- 3:43 – 10:00
From Duty to Desire: How Divorce Changed Everything About Marriage
- SSSimon Sinek
politics and world events. I'm so curious what the dynamic of relationships has changed over the course of a career.
- EPEsther Perel
Um, I mean, the arc is, is very, um, full of changes.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
So, um, I arrive in the United States in '83, and we are talking about just a few years since divorce has been legalized, no-fault divorce. That in itself is an enormous change to the structure of marriage and family life, um, because the rate of divorce increases dramatically, primarily spurred by women. Women are enough often economically independent, even at on every level of the scale, to decide that re- relationships and marriages in particular need to be emotionally fulfilling because m- it's not a, just a material reliance. Contraception has been democratized, um, so child con- you know, reproduction is now controlled. You, and reproduction can be, um, technologically assisted, and it can be technologically stopped. So on both, on both sides-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm
- EPEsther Perel
... sexuality fundamentally changes its meaning from the sole domain of biology to now becoming socialized and becoming a property of the self, something that you define your sexuality, not just a part of your condition.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- EPEsther Perel
Um, people go from five, six, seven children to one, two potentially, or even the choice of none. Um, sexuality shifts from a marital duty, and has already been, but now even more, to a marital, to, to a sexual duty, uh, to a sexual ple- uh, um, desire, sorry. From duty to desire. So that's, that's just a few small things in the, in the romantic realm. Work at that time is shifting from, you know, it's basically in the midst of what we call the service economy, from the production economy of the land and the agriculture to now a service economy. And by the way, so is marriage. Marriage becomes a service economy too. We want affection, we want trust, we want... things that have to do with the quality of the, of the emotional connection between the people. And from there, gradually, these two units, which are really going parallel but also cross, we kind of have a dual revolution taking place at the same time. Work goes from s- production to service to identity, an identity economy in which we turn to work for a host of existential needs that used to be part of our religious lives and our communal lives-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- EPEsther Perel
... that now become part of work: purpose, meaning, belonging, community, [chuckles] things that had nothing to do with why, what we-
- SSSimon Sinek
You and I have both talked about this, how we used to get purpose from church, we used to get community from our neighbors. We had bowling leagues for our friends. How all of tho- you know, church attendance declines, bowling leagues disappear, and now we demand that work fulfill all of those needs.
- EPEsther Perel
And we deferred relat- marriage, per se, marriage or committed relationships by 10 years. So work is the primary hub for-
- SSSimon Sinek
Right
- EPEsther Perel
... your social connection and for all these other needs. It's an amazing thing to, to, to observe.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
This is all before still the internet.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- EPEsther Perel
Then comes internet, then comes social media, then comes AI. I mean, you-- at every level, relationships change, because I think it's all my work on relationships.
- SSSimon Sinek
What, what, what were the common... When you arrived in '83 and you started your practice, what were the common themes that, that, uh, uh, in, in the, in the '80s that, that-- again, just common themes of the couples that would come see you, uh, in the '80s?
- EPEsther Perel
I mean, themes were always, you know, communication, for example, has always been a theme or, or, or conflict or pro- basically the orig- the origins of couples... This is actually an interesting tease. The origins of couples therapy.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
Originally, people came to see you as a couple because somebody had said that there were issues with the child, and that maybe they were not all about the child, but they were actually about the couple. But in fact, couples therapy really became a discipline on its own when, for the first time, the survival of the family depended on the happiness of the couple.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- EPEsther Perel
Because as long as people were married for life and you couldn't get out and there was no exit, it didn't really matter if you got along or you didn't get along. It would be nice, but in any case, you were stuck.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- EPEsther Perel
Once you could leave, you needed the relationship to really be much better.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- EPEsther Perel
And this f- and that meant that the only way the family will stay together in its original constellation is if the couple is relatively content. And so that brought couples more and more to come to couples therapy.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- EPEsther Perel
Be it issues of conflict, addiction, violence, communication, sexuality, sexual incompatibility, you name it, you know? At my-- in my time, the-- around it was the first conversations about family leave.
- 10:00 – 17:11
When Happiness Became Glue Instead of a Perk
- SSSimon Sinek
in something, happiness is a nice to have, but you don't bother working on it because it doesn't actually matter because you can't go anywhere. So happiness is not a, not a glue. Happiness is a, is a perk, where when the ability to leave a relationship becomes now an option or an easier option, uh, uh, uh, and that there's less legal complications, there's less stigma, all of the things that go with it-
- EPEsther Perel
Yep
- SSSimon Sinek
... now happiness becomes glue, not, not a perk.
- EPEsther Perel
Correct.
- SSSimon Sinek
And I, and I can't help but compare that to work as well, where, you know, w- w- we could ar- a strong argument could be made in the 1950s, for example, where '60s or even '70s, where people gave their whole lives to one company, and there was a, you know, there was a better deal where we looked after each other and the company would never think of laying you off, and that's all true. But the concept of, like, happy at work, I mean, you worked for the company and the company worked for you, and there-- it just sort of-- I wouldn't call it stuck, I would call it stasis. Um, but now you get to a, a modern day, and even when I compare the young generation to my generation, where I would never dream when I was starting my career, we would never dream of quitting a job within less than a year because it would destroy your resume. Where now, young people are very comfortable quitting at any time. They're also very comfortable quitting without another job lined up, which for somebody like me is, like, mind-blowing, right? And, and I think now if the, if the, if the ease of getting out of it has lost the social stigma, it's not gonna destroy your resume, et cetera, et cetera, go down the list. Now, where happiness was a perk at work, happiness is, uh, now a glue at work, and the question I'm asking is: Are leaders focusing on keeping their people happy? And I don't mean giving them free lunch and putting ping pong tables-
- EPEsther Perel
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... in. I-- when I say happiness, I don't mean, you know, smiles. I mean fulfillment. I mean calm. I mean, uh, inspiration.And now these things are no longer a nice-to-have, which I think a lot of older executives actually still believe.
- EPEsther Perel
Yep.
- SSSimon Sinek
It's a glue, not a perk.
- EPEsther Perel
So I think that as a whole, if you really even step back a second, there's two, two ideas that accompany your question that for me give it really a context. First of all, for most of history, happiness belonged to the afterlife. You know, it was in heaven.
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- EPEsther Perel
You suffered well on Earth, and if you did a good job, you could be rewarded later, right? Then it comes down, we bring happiness from the heavens to s- to the Earth. It becomes an option, and now-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- EPEsther Perel
... it becomes a mandate.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
I deserve to be happy. I'm entitled, you know? And in that, in the name of that, a number of major changes occur, and I think one of the most important shift that takes place in relationships, and that connects with your executive, is that, again, for most of history, and still in most parts of the world today, relationships are organized around duty, obligation, loyalty, structure. You know that you're happy when you're able to fulfill your duties, when you've been able to fulfill the roles that's expected of you as a father, as a son, as a boss, you know, and that is what produces the happiness, is the ability to fulfill those tasks. And you have a lot of clarity. You have very little freedom, if any, and very little personal expression. Who cares? We switch that to a model where relationships become organized around choice and option, and you have more freedom than you've ever had, and you are more alone and more confused than you've ever been because all these decisions now rest on you rather than being passed on through the structures of culture and religion and community. And that is underneath the sentences that the, the executives will say today about the younger generations, about, you know, people talk about wanting belonging, purpose, meaning, community, but, you know, your, your example of the person who moves every year, how can you have belonging on a rotation of one year or even two?
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
How can you have belonging when it, the, the notion is that if you leave, you really are a winner? [chuckles]
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- EPEsther Perel
Because you actually have ambitions, you know, that the people who stay, you know, are the people who don't have enough oomph. [scoffs]
- SSSimon Sinek
Do you see that in relationships as well? Do you see relationships becoming more disposable amongst younger generations, where I'm gonna keep moving relationships like I keep moving jobs to find the thing that's better and better and will finally make me happy, but to your point, it's a, it's a, it's a fool's errand?
- EPEsther Perel
I think I see different things. I see this, people who-- I mean, this is a question people are asking me all the time. Do we throw, you know, do we abandon the, the project too soon?
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
Um, I don't know that I can answer it because I also think that so many people have had to tolerate-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- EPEsther Perel
... circumstances of life that really, you know, I, I will put it that sometimes the people who need to leave stay too long, and the people who l- who stay too long sh- [chuckles] you know-
- SSSimon Sinek
Need to leave, yeah
- EPEsther Perel
... it, it's not a, a flat statement. It's that there are people who probably would do better by being a little bit more patient and enduring.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
And there are people who would do better by being a little bit more self-serving.
- 17:11 – 19:24
The Playground We Lost: How Free Play Shaped Social Skills
- SSSimon Sinek
A, is that true, and B, why?
- EPEsther Perel
I think that, um, wherever we go, having just spent, uh, uh, quite a few weeks working abroad, we're hearing the same litany, even from Brazil.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
All the way-- I went from country to country hearing the same conversation. Um, I think that, and the conversation is about, uh, uh, a, an increasing social atrophy. That's how I call it. It, it, it involves the loneliness, but it's more than that. It's also self-imposed isolation as, as some people talk about. It's also a kind of a contactless living. It's y- it's I don't need to leave my house, neither to work, neither to exercise, neither to shop for food. I mean, I can just stay home. In every country, I ask this question that has become really quite significant to me. Actually, I ask two. One relates to what you said before.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
"How many of you have grandparents who lived and worked in the same place their whole life?"The majority.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- EPEsther Perel
How many of you have parents? Hmm, they already moved. How many of you have changed jobs more than once in the last five years?
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
And then you begin to see this notion of, of fluidity. But the other question I ask is, how many of you grew up playing freely on the street? And the vast majority of an audience of thousands raised their hands, they grew up playing freely on the street. And how many of you know children or have children that are playing freely on the street today? And you get a sprinkle.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
And I find that such an amazing... I see it visually. It's like, you know, when you d- draw a chart, this is a vis- a human chart in front of you. The loss of the primary ground of social negotiation that we used to grow up with.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
Where you met all kinds of p- kids, where you negotiate, where you make war, where you make peace-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- EPEsther Perel
... where you create alliances, where you make [chuckles]
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- EPEsther Perel
... you know, where you have repair. All of this specific place where
- 19:24 – 21:01
Lion Cubs and Human Children: Learning Life Skills Through Play
- EPEsther Perel
you hone your chops of sociability-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- EPEsther Perel
... gone. And I think that that has a major effect.
- SSSimon Sinek
You know, I, I, I, w- as you were saying this, my mind immediately went to a nature documentary where you watch lion cubs and they, they fight with each other, and the mom lets them fight with each other and slap each other around.
- EPEsther Perel
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
And what they're doing is they're learning to hunt.
- EPEsther Perel
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
They're learning to hunt as, as cubs fighting. And the question, you know, and it raises the question, we're mammals. We're supposed to learn all the things that we need to survive as a species when we're younger.
- EPEsther Perel
Yep.
- SSSimon Sinek
And to your point, on the playground, we had war, we had peace, we had fights, we had negotiations, we had heartbreak, we had anger, we had success, and there, it was all a safe microcosm-
- EPEsther Perel
Through play
- SSSimon Sinek
... of life.
- EPEsther Perel
By the way, and all-- this is the mammal stories, that we all learn this stuff through play.
- SSSimon Sinek
We all learn this stuff through play. And when we're taking the play away, and when it's, when we talk, when you and I are talking about play, we mean very specifically interpersonal play.
- EPEsther Perel
Yes.
- SSSimon Sinek
You know? When we take the interpersonal play away, it raises the question: Where are we as sh- as homo sapiens, where are we as human beings going to learn these essential life skills? And the essential life skills we're talking about are not how to code, how to prompt. We're talking about essential life skills like how to make a friend, how to ask for help, how to say, "I'm struggling," how to, how to fight, how to make peace, all of these things that, that are essential. And, and, and now we're just looking to the machine, to AI, to, to fill those gaps. But the gaps they're filling should never need to be filled in the first
- 21:01 – 25:46
Why Soft Skills Are Now the Competitive Edge
- SSSimon Sinek
place.
- EPEsther Perel
Correct.
- SSSimon Sinek
Or they should be, they should be small gaps filled rather than huge, big, you know, chasms.
- EPEsther Perel
I totally agree. I mean, you were asking about the workplace. I-- people sometimes ask me, "How did you get to be involved in the workplace? You're this couples therapist, you're this family th..." And I'm like, "I didn't change." I mean-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- EPEsther Perel
... but work understood that relationships are no longer just soft skills.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
You know? And, and forever, soft skills meant that they're not part of the promotion, they're not part of the evaluation. You don't get anything for being a good mediator, a good negotiator, a good peacemaker on your team. None. This is not what cons- are considered useful skills. It's, you know, relational skills used to be feminine skills.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yes.
- EPEsther Perel
Nice, nice to have. Idealized in principle and disregarded in reality. [laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
This is like, now I think that the workplace actually, interestingly, because of AI, is understand-- and because of tech in general, you know, that this is actually the cutting edge. This is the competitive edge.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
This is the stuff that people need a tremendous amount of help with. My hope is that people not only go to AI to ask how to write an apology letter, because you can get a very nice apology letter these days and have no idea if the person experienced an ounce of remorse to begin with.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah. Yeah. [both laughing] It's not the letter, it's the a- it's the accountability.
- EPEsther Perel
Of course. [laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
It's-- and, and, and this is where I think, um, most people don't realize that s- since you and I met, one of the reasons we get along so well is you and I are not talking about, um, uh, romantic relationships, and you and I are not talking about work. You and I are talking about human beings in every s- in every sense.
- EPEsther Perel
You know that you helped me actually formulate what became my, the primary, um, credo of my entire w- body of work. I remember this, when we, very early on, you did with me a what, uh, you know, a what's what. [laughs] Whether-
- SSSimon Sinek
A why discovery?
- EPEsther Perel
Yes. And we were in a basement.
- SSSimon Sinek
You can call it a what's what.
- EPEsther Perel
I mean, my, Jack just reminded me this, and m- at, you said, "What is it you are doing?" Like, "What is behind-- Why are you doing this? Why are you doing this?" And I blurted out, "Because it is the quality of our relationships that determines the quality of our lives."
- SSSimon Sinek
Amen.
- EPEsther Perel
And you looked at me, and I thought, "I finally said it in one sentence."
- SSSimon Sinek
That's it.
- EPEsther Perel
And this was with you, but I forgot who it was with today. [laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
Well, I'll take all the credit. Thank you very much. The, yeah-
- EPEsther Perel
I give it back to you
- SSSimon Sinek
... I mean, I think that's wh- and, and this is why you and I, like you happen to have come up through, um, uh, psychology and, and, and couples counseling, and I happen to come through the corporate world. But fundamentally, you and I meet in the middle, where we f- we both believe that the quality of our relationships determines the quality of our lives. I'll tell you a quick funny story. So I did a, I did, um, something called a glycan age recently, where they basically take blood and they, I can't remember exactly what they do, but they look at, they look at inflammation in the body.
- EPEsther Perel
Mm-hmm.
- 25:46 – 34:27
The Harvard Study and Blue Zones: Relationships Are Longevity
- SSSimon Sinek
true more-
- EPEsther Perel
Yes
- SSSimon Sinek
... than just what you eat, how much exercise you do, and whether you do intermittent fasting or not.
- EPEsther Perel
I, I mean, you know, first you're describing what the Harvard Longitudinal Study on Men, by the way, that has been going on for decades. It's absolutely clear that relationships and meaningful relationships is the number one-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- EPEsther Perel
... bar none for happiness. That doesn't necessarily mean that you live longer, but you live-
- SSSimon Sinek
Right
- EPEsther Perel
... better. [chuckles]
- SSSimon Sinek
I wanna live, I wanna live a long, happy life-
- EPEsther Perel
Yes
- SSSimon Sinek
... not just a long life.
- EPEsther Perel
What we know is that all people who arrive at a certain age, as one of the great physicians said to me, "I have yet to meet a man in his 90s who is alive alone."
- SSSimon Sinek
Oh, so good. I-
- EPEsther Perel
Everybody who is there a long time is there because they have somebody right next to them.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yes.
- EPEsther Perel
Doesn't have to be a, a spouse, but there are people right next to them that say, "Oh, it looks like you're limping a bit. Oh, you don't seem to be hearing me as well. Oh, have you considered g- you know, getting eye surgery?" Whatever. People look at you and are saying, "I see you. How are you doing?" You know, the, they know, for example, apropos relationships and health, that the, the growth of the LATS, the living apart together, you know, the, the, the fastest growing configuration of couples in America today, is actually correlated with the decline in health, especially in men, who often don't pay attention to this, and so who they-- male partners or female partners.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
But it means in partnership, somebody says, "Should go see a doctor."
- SSSimon Sinek
E- e- even, even Dan Buettner's work, you know, "The Blue Zones," which is wonderful work, and he's, he's fantastic. You know, a lot of-- And he does talk about it, but a lot of the people that what they take from his work is walk every day, drink olive oil, eat vegetables. And they completely ignore the fact that these blue zones, that they live in commune, they live together, they eat together, they work together, they do things together, they walk together. And to your point, they're like, "You're limping. You're not listening to me." And, and they, they, they know how to have effective confrontation. They know how to resolve. They, all those human skills that we talk about that should be learned in the playground, they learn them and they're using them into their old age. You're 100% -
- EPEsther Perel
Isn't it amazing that we need to be reminded of this, that we are social beings, that we are mammals, that we survive by the connection we have to others, that we are born to connect with people? Uh, I'll give you an, a, a little anecdote. I don't think anecdotes de- describe the full reality, but it was a moment for me that was very interesting. Um, I-- my younger son was in kindergarten. He had a very c- best friend. I was convinced he would go into first grade with that same friend. N- no. I went to the principal. I said, "Why did you separate them? They were getting so along. It was such a beautiful friendship that could become, you know, my childhood friend like I have from, from age six." She said, "They need to learn to make new friends each time." I said, "He's not being trained for mobility. He's a five-year-old who is being trained for long-term relationships. It's not the same." And it was really cl- that was the idea. The idea is not how do you continue a long-standing friendship. It's how do you make new friends all the time? [chuckles] I thought that was just-
- SSSimon Sinek
Oh, it's, so, so-
- EPEsther Perel
... an amazing cultural encounter.
- SSSimon Sinek
Wow. So, wow. We're actually training our young to suck it up and get over it and move on. [chuckles]
- EPEsther Perel
Yeah. I mean, they don't-- It's not seen this way. It's seen as having the competence, the quality of being able to make new friends wherever you go, you know? And, uh, there is value to that too, but at five, I'm thinking, you know, th- this is-- you can see a value system that oc- occurs, you know-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- EPEsther Perel
... two decades later, and how it seeps into the mentality of early childhood, basically.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah. One of the things we don't think about until, you know, we're looking in the rearview mirror is what are the experiences we have when we're children that mold us into the adults that we become? And, like, we know the generation that grew up during lockdown. We're not sure what the impact is yet, but, like m- like our grandparents who grew up during the war, you know, and during, uh, rations, you know, for the rest of their lives, they saved every little piece of tinfoil and s- re- reused every-
- EPEsther Perel
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... jam jar, you know. Uh, and they would ne- they would, they, they hated waste, and the reason is it's not, there's nothing mentally wrong with them. It's 'cause they grew up during a time of depression and war, you know? And so it, it marks them for the rest of their lives as an entire generation.
- EPEsther Perel
I think that you have two things happening right now. One-... is that we all understand that people come to work with two CVs. They have two resumes.
- 34:27 – 38:56
Simon's Personal Revelation: There's Nothing Wrong With Me
- SSSimon Sinek
each other's work and in our own work, and so, you know, we, we, we open up to each other. It gets q- our relat- our, um, conversations would be quite personal. And so I haven't talked to you in a while, so I, I need to give you an update. [laughs] So what better place to give you an update than on a public broadcast? I had a huge, profound shift in my thinking about my own relationships that I hope, I think, will make you proud, which is I've, you know, I haven't had many long-term relationships in my life, and I'm, uh, uh, never been married. And in my dating life, v- very often, especially on a first date, um, a woman will say to me, "What's wrong with you?" 'Cause they'll start quizzing me. "What's your longest relationship?" You know, they're, they're quizzing me. They're going through whether I, I'm capable. [chuckles] You know? And, and I, when I'm honest, and then they literally, they say, "Well, how come you haven't been married?" Or, "What's wrong with you?" Or, "Are you relationship-phobic or are you commitment-phobic?" And, you know, it didn't sound right, but the empirical evidence would demonstrate that maybe I am, and I started to believe the evidence even though it didn't feel right to me, and it caused me great insecurity. And, um, and then I started to realize when somebody says, "How come you haven't been married yet?" The answer was obvious: I haven't met the right person yet. Um, but more important than that, more important than that was, is, is that I've recognized that I have focused on friendships, and I have a very fulfilled and happy life, and I get a lot of what other people get from relationships, I get from very, very deep and meaningful friendships. And I have a friend, she, she was in a 16-year relationship, and she will freely admit that she should have been in that relationship for one year. It was very unhealthy, very toxic, and mostly unhappy. And she says, "I should have been in the relationship for one year," but she stayed in it for 16 years, and society looks at her and says she did it right.That is correct. And society looks at me, where I didn't have one monogamous relationship, and they say, "Something's wrong with you." And I've, I've exorcized those demons, and I've recognized that so long as I am in happy, healthy, fulfilling relationships, the exact dynamics, whether it fits society's definition of what I should or shouldn't be doing, is irrelevant. Are-- Am I happy? Do people love me? Do I love people? Do I feel that I can go to someone and say, "I'm struck..." Is there someone to say, "You're limping. Go to the doctor. There's something in your teeth"? Do I have those friends-
- EPEsther Perel
Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... that are unafraid? And I think we, especially in this modern context-
- EPEsther Perel
We over-indexed
- SSSimon Sinek
... where the definition of relationships have changed so much, to your point, which is whether we're in these long-term, healthy, monogamous relationships has become yet another stressor in our lives.
- EPEsther Perel
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And the question is, are you in happy relationships? Whether they're work relationships or romantic relationships or fri... Do you have successful relationships that you know how to manage and they, and they too have the skills of, of having... And I've recognized, whether it's just me 'cause I'm a weirdo, maybe it's society, but I'm much more at peace with the fact that there's nothing wrong with me.
- EPEsther Perel
So I'm gonna, uh, if you allow me, I, I, I would, uh... The personal one we'll do at dinner, but the broader one I think is a very, uh, relevant question, which is kind of what I was addressing earlier when I said there is a proliferation of new emphasis, new creations of, of social bonds, new definitions of what is family, what is a family of choice, what is a circle of care, and I think that what you're describing among your friends is that.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
What you're saying is, if I understand it well, is that we have over-indexed on the romantic partnership as it being the one and only, the be-all, the central one, the one that everybody needs to have one and fulfill. Um, and it also happens to be a model in which one person has to be able to provide you what an entire village used to provide.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
And that means that you have to experience with the same person the sense of belonging, apropos what we described about work. A b- a sense of belonging, of continuity, of safety, of predictability, and also of adventure and of novelty and of playfulness
- 38:56 – 42:05
Three Models of Relationship: Joy, Scaffolding, or Friendship-Centered
- EPEsther Perel
and risk.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
All of this in one relationship. I think there are three models, actually, in, uh, that sense. There is a relationship model that is romantic and intimate in which people do experience the joy from the relationship itself. Then there are people, maybe this woman that you describe, for whom marriage or committed intimate relationships or remade relationships are scaffolding. They basically provide a structure that enables you to go elsewhere and find different sources of meaning, activities, shared interests, purpose-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm
- EPEsther Perel
... you name it.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- EPEsther Perel
Desire, you know. But basically friends, be-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- EPEsther Perel
... because people find that if they are in the structure of a couple, they are, they have fulfilled the norm and it enables them to go and make friendship and things like that outside. And then there are people who basically are blessed with multiple friendships and multiple binds and bonds and connections, and they don't necessarily see the intimate relationship as the primary relationship to be in. And you are right, they are often ex- seen from a normative point of view as the ones who didn't fulfill, you know, what's expected, the code of conduct.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
When in fact, not everybody finds the best of themselves in an intimate romantic relationship. Some people are way better as managers, as mentors, as friends, as teachers-
- SSSimon Sinek
I, I-
- EPEsther Perel
... than they are as life partners.
- SSSimon Sinek
It's really for me about stress, which is I love being in a relationship. I love having a, a romantic partner and a, and a life partner. I really love being in a relationship. And, uh, in my last relationship-
- EPEsther Perel
But that's why I answered it less personally, Simon.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah. And I, and I want, and I want another one.
- EPEsther Perel
Yeah, but you don't wanna be made to feel like there is something wrong with you.
- SSSimon Sinek
But I don't wanna be made to feel like there's something wrong with me because I'm not in one or because I don't have a history of, uh, of a marriage. And that's the, those are the demons that I've exorcized that-
- EPEsther Perel
Yes, that is the measurement stick that is used-
- SSSimon Sinek
And, and, and, and it goes right back-
- EPEsther Perel
... across the globe, by the way
- SSSimon Sinek
... to the beginning of this conversation. It goes right back to the beginning of this conversation, which is the norm, the norm may have been developed not because it was out of desire, but because people were stuck. And as you said, happiness was a-- uh, we discussed, happiness was a perk, not a glue. And it was the being stuck in something that defined the, the rules and roles and responsibilities of that, of that relationship that when the, the flexibility to be unstuck changes the rules, roles, and responsibility in the relationship.
- EPEsther Perel
Correct.
- SSSimon Sinek
And so, um, uh, and so I think, as I said, for me, it's not a question that I want to... I, I, I absolutely want a relationship, but I, I don't feel there's anything wrong with me anymore. I believed, I believed the very sort of judgy questions that were asked to me, you know, over dinner, and I know-- I now can smile and say, "It's obvious why I haven't been married. I haven't met the right person yet. It's such a stupid question. Isn't that obvious?" You know? Um, uh-
- EPEsther Perel
I think what
- 42:05 – 42:55
We Need Connection, Not Just Romance
- EPEsther Perel
you're highlighting, and, and, and because that's the lesson for, for, for many people, is really we need connection.
- SSSimon Sinek
We need connection.
- EPEsther Perel
But there are many-
- SSSimon Sinek
And, and, and my friendships, my friendships leave me not lonely-
- EPEsther Perel
Yes. Yes, yes. Exactly
- SSSimon Sinek
... and very fulfilled, while at the same time, of course, I'm meeting people and would like one... And the other thing that's changed is I would meet people and be like, "Try and make this person my girlfriend. Okay, it didn't work. Try and make this person my girlfriend." And of course, I'm putting so-- I'm putting pressure on myself and the-
- EPEsther Perel
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... and the poor other person. It's destined for failure because of this construction that I'm trying to force. Now everyone I, everyone I meet, my only goal is see if there's a friendship here. See if there's a friendship here. Foster a friendship, and if one of those friendships... blossoms into something more, then I'm open-minded to that. But build friendship first as opposed to just forcing
- 42:55 – 44:23
Belonging vs. Fitting In: Stop Forcing the Mold
- SSSimon Sinek
into a relationship
- EPEsther Perel
But you know what you're highlighting- Yeah. What you're highlighting, which is very interesting, is the difference between belonging and fitting in.
- SSSimon Sinek
Say more.
- EPEsther Perel
I mean, you wanted to try to fit in.
- SSSimon Sinek
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
You wanna try to fit the person into the mold. You know, romantic love is, is fantastic. It's, it's one of the greatest inventions we have. But it doesn't come at the expense of every other type of bonding-
- SSSimon Sinek
Right, right
- EPEsther Perel
... or relationship. And I mean, what I have been saying for, for quite a while now is we need the spread of it.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
We need the mentorship, we need the teacher, we need the, the creative pair, we need the deep friendships, we need the peripheral friendships.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
We need the work friends. We need-- Because we don't have these ready-made, all-encompassing communities that we used to be part of, in which one community determined every aspect of our lives, as it is still in many other parts of the world, but not here, we need to create this. And this is a real creative endeavor, actually. It's a-- But it's, it demands practice, it demands routines, it demands-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- EPEsther Perel
... rituals, it demands continuity on a daily basis. You're right that your friends make you not lonely, hopefully. And you're right that many people who are in committed marriages or romantic relationships may often f- really experience a lack of friends-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- EPEsther Perel
... and a deep loneliness while there's somebody living right next to them.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yep.
- EPEsther Perel
It's not
- 44:23 – 45:46
The Dual Revolution: Business Terms in Love, Psychology Terms at Work
- EPEsther Perel
the numbers and the constellation that guarantees the quality of the, of your connection and the internal feeling.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
You know? I, I got interested, you know-- I mean, I've, I've written and spoken about this for decades on, on the personal front, but I got very interested in it in the workspace because when I-- as we s- when we began, I said there is a kind of a dual revolution-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah, yeah
- EPEsther Perel
... happening at once. The business terms have entered the romantic and the intimate relationships, but the psychology and the language of intimate relationships has entered the business world.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
Authenticity, vulnerability, um, [lip smack] trust, psychological safety. I mean-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- EPEsther Perel
... an entire vocabulary has entered the workplace and especially the business world that, you know, in the same breath we talk about psychological safety as we talk about performance indicators. It-- And we totally see the syncretism as, as normal. And so from that place, I thought, "Oh, maybe I can also"-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- EPEsther Perel
... "within the workplace address not just our relationship to work, but our relationships at work."
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
And I started to create the card games, and I started to create s- and e-experiences of interaction when people know that storytelling is the bridge for connection. How do I make people
- 45:46 – 48:27
Entry-Level Workers Are the Highest Risk Population
- EPEsther Perel
share of themselves in that context? Because now we need as many contexts as we can.
- SSSimon Sinek
I, I wonder if the group that's h- at highest risk-
- EPEsther Perel
Is the young people
- SSSimon Sinek
... uh, but, but not kids in school, because kids y-y- you know, the question is, do they play in the street? Maybe not, but they still play in the playground. They still go to school, and more and more schools are taking the phones away or at least-
- EPEsther Perel
Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... restricting their use. So th- there's still common experience at school, and they still have fights on the playground. Like that's happening.
- EPEsther Perel
The post, the post-high school or the post-college or the post-
- SSSimon Sinek
And I, I, I think the highest risk is college and post and post-college.
- EPEsther Perel
Yeah. So do, do-
- SSSimon Sinek
Where they start to have some independence, and especially post, you know, when they enter the entry-level workforce.
- EPEsther Perel
Entry-level workforce is-
- SSSimon Sinek
I think entry-level workforce, that-
- EPEsther Perel
... a bloodbath
- SSSimon Sinek
... that population is the most at risk b- especially with the concept of remote work.
- EPEsther Perel
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Because if they don't have to come to work-
- EPEsther Perel
If there will be work
- SSSimon Sinek
... they don't wanna come to work.
- EPEsther Perel
If there will be work for them. It's a job bloodbath coming to them.
- SSSimon Sinek
If, if there will be work for them. And, and the, the idea of like the lion cubs learning the skills they need for, for adulthood, I would argue that that first level workforce, that entry-level workforce, that, you know... Entry level sucks. You know, you have to be good at everything. You, you... It's not about your unique talents.
- EPEsther Perel
You think you have to be good at everything.
- SSSimon Sinek
You have to think you have to be good at everything. But-- And you, and you have to-- And you're, you're asked to do things you... Like I-- My-- When I was entry level, they wanted me to be very organized. [chuckles] That's hilarious. But I had, I had to do it. And it's the stresses and strains and the-- And I had to learn who are my friends and who are my enemies, 'cause there were people who would stab me in the back for their promotion. And s- and, and I-- and you can't just stab them back. You have to like learn to navigate. But it happened, the playground, the street was the office, and the politics and the s- and the, and the egos and the insecurities, mine and theirs, and the ambitions, and all of this came into the, the pot that was the office space. And I, I fear that, that because it feels nice not to come to work and it feels nice to have all that freedom, that, that, as you described, the liquidity, the, the liquid work-life balance, that there's so-- that the rigidity and the structure, even to the point where of- companies are saying, "We'd like you to come back to work, and it's not just for us, it's also for you," there's such a harsh pushback i- amongst particularly, I think, younger populations, because it feels nice not to come in. But the question is, is it good for you? When I've spoken about this, you know, the, the, the comments in the sections are like, "You're just saying that because you're an exploitive employer," and all of this stuff. A- and I, I really am thinking about those lion cubs. I'm really thinking about the time,
- 48:27 – 49:40
The Shitty Boss Who Made Me Who I Am
- SSSimon Sinek
you know, 'cause you can't-- When you're senior and you screw something up, it can be really bad. When you're a junior, you're, you're not gonna bring the company down. I am who I am today in large part because I was really lucky to have a really shitty boss when I started my career, and then I, then I got a really good boss, and I learned how not to do things and how to do things that had significant molding and influence.
- EPEsther Perel
One of my favorite cards is actually, "I still remember the manager who-"And what you hear is often either the best manager, the one that I adored, that I, that trained me, that believed in me, da, da, da, da, that I want to emulate. Either it's the manager like the boss that you're talking about, that the, the, the shitty manager who, who really made me sweat and, but, and who I pro- I learned from that person what never to do. It's an amazing reveal- revelatory card.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
Now, I also like the piece of feedback I used to, I would, I wish I had received sooner. That too, because it goes back to your beginnings-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- EPEsther Perel
... and what people did and did not tell you. I think instead of polarizing between remote work and physically present at work, the question for me
- 49:40 – 51:23
Remote Work and the Loss of Lion Cub Training
- EPEsther Perel
at this moment, I don't want to engage with that conversation-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- EPEsther Perel
... the way where people can then be invited to, you know... I, I combine, I do my podcast-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- EPEsther Perel
... online. It is a technology where people can listen live to sessions. I also see patients in person. I see patients on a walk. I see patients on a screen. I try to alternate it, and I try to teach my students to not do their entire work on the screen.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah. Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
Because some of the young therapists have never seen anybody work and have never been seen working.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
And that, I think, is problematic because supervision is the way you learn in the, in my field, that's, your, your feedback session with the manager is a supervision session.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
So I would say what is important is how we help people connect, which is what people used to say, like, meet them where they are.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
How do you elicit curiosity? How do you make people appear like they are three-dimensional people behind that screen? You know, what's going on in their life? How do you... And can we? Because what happens today is you open the screen, even us, we open the screen, and we basically started within a minute, you know? Because I couldn't say, "Can I get you a coffee?" Or, or you say to me, "Can I get..." You know, that whole-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- EPEsther Perel
... ritual of welcoming, of entering into each other's spheres, of so saying, "How have you been?" Of connect, you know, that smile that we were talking about.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
It's so task-oriented.
- SSSimon Sinek
Oh, it's, it's transactional. It's transactional. The, the, but, and again, I agree with you, and I'm not making the, the for or against in-person versus online work either. I mean, I've had an, a virtual company before virtual companies
- 51:23 – 53:54
Flexibility Over Dogma: The Case for Blended Work
- SSSimon Sinek
were a thing, and, uh, and I still do. Like, my, my team is spread all over the country, if not all over the world. I'm making the case that it's not one or it's one and. That, that I, I'm asking employers to be flexible, but I'm asking employees to be flexible too.
- EPEsther Perel
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
That it, that neither side should be saying it's this or that. Both sides should be saying, "We would like it blended, even if some of it makes me uncomfortable because I'm an introvert or I'm an extrovert," whatever. Because it's not just about, "Well, I'm an introvert, I wanna stay at home." Well, think about your extrovert colleagues. They wanna see you, so sometimes we have to make a little sacrifice for each other. This goes back to the, the, the, what it t- what it means to be in, in tribe. It means to be in a relationship, which is, which is we do things for each other so that we can grow, not just that I can be happy, but that we can, we can be happy, and we do things for each other. And so I, like, even my virtual company, like, I remember the, the, the, we, we had a-
- EPEsther Perel
Do you meet? Do you have off-sites and you meet?
- SSSimon Sinek
We do. We do. We do an annual off-site. I like, I like when the team, team meets up a- as smaller groups throughout the year as well.
- EPEsther Perel
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
That happens, and I want it to happen more, if I'm honest. But the value of the in-person cannot be replicated, and I think what you and I are both espousing is flexibility, not dogma.
- EPEsther Perel
And, and flexibility, but also I think that in person and then what? So I say-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yes
- EPEsther Perel
... when I bring people in person-
- SSSimon Sinek
In person, then what?
- EPEsther Perel
... I want to create connections that are fun-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yes
- EPEsther Perel
... meaningful, elicit the desire for more. So, you know-
- SSSimon Sinek
Right
- EPEsther Perel
... any t- any activity is good. I happen to do it with storytelling 'cause I think that we are storytellers and relationships are stories. I think that one of our biggest challenges is how do you deal in relationships with the fact that somebody has a completely different story about the same relationship as you?
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
And that, that's where a lot of conflict comes in. "That's not what happened. I'll tell you what happened because my brain is more accurate than yours," you know?
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs] Oh, that's worth repeating 'cause it's just so funny and so true. "That's not what happened. I'll tell you what happened."
- EPEsther Perel
Yes.
- SSSimon Sinek
Oh my God. We've all done it. We've definitely all thought.
- EPEsther Perel
Of course, I know. [laughs] You know, m- my brain works, yours doesn't. And I do it, you know, with the courses, I do it with the podcast, I do it with the card game. But it, the, the concept behind it is how do I help people who don't go out enough and don't speak enough in serendipitous, impromptu situations know what to say, ask questions, learn to listen, learn to
- 53:54 – 56:12
Play Is When Risk Becomes Fun
- EPEsther Perel
tell stories about themselves, realize what it means to be revealing of oneself within limits in the workplace? And I think one of the things that the lions did is play.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
So a card game is play. I wanted to use play to exper- to create these meaningful connections, which I know for fact improve the relationship culture in the workplace, which therefore, for fact, improves performance in the workplace.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah. I, I, I mean, I think you said it best, and I think it's a nice place to, it's a nice button for us to, to conclude, which is, which is play doesn't necessarily mean, you know, a game of, of foosball or ping pong or something. Play is just, is, is bringing some sort of lighthearted interaction. When you and I go out for dinner, you and I can have sometimes very intense conversations. We disagree sometimes. Sometimes we pick at each other.
- EPEsther Perel
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And at the end of every time we get together, at the end of every dinner-
- EPEsther Perel
I had such a nice time
- SSSimon Sinek
... we both leave and say, "I had such, so much fun. I had such a good time." And, and I think because this is what play means.
- EPEsther Perel
You know what is play is when, when risk, when, when risk is fun.And what you described was a concern about comfort and discomfort.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
I am less on the spending side, making sure people are not uncomfortable and all of that.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
I spend more time at this moment helping people take risks because-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- EPEsther Perel
... you know, we tend to say that only when you trust can you take risks, but it is also true that when you can take risks, it increases your ability to trust.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
Your abilities and other people.
- SSSimon Sinek
And when we can understand that we treat work as play and relationships as play, and all of these things that don't have fixed rules and agreed upon outcomes, agreed upon finish lines, that the mindset must be play. And that in turn, to your point, reduces stress, increases productivity, increases the quality of our relationships, gets us to see each other as contributors rather than, rather than, than, uh, competitors. And it just makes cultures-
- EPEsther Perel
Beautiful
- SSSimon Sinek
... relationships work better when you view as many aspects of your life as play, you're playing the infinite game.
- EPEsther Perel
Another way for play would be engagement.
- SSSimon Sinek
100%. 100%.
- EPEsther Perel
It's exactly that. But for, for those of us who don't
- 56:12 – 58:33
The Number One Skill Gen Z Needs: Talk to Strangers
- EPEsther Perel
like the word play, I just think replace it with engagement and this will make a tremendous amount of sense. I like it. I like it a lot.
- SSSimon Sinek
What's the number one relationship skill Gen Z should master before starting their first job?
- EPEsther Perel
Talk to strangers.
- SSSimon Sinek
Ooh, say more. Didn't expect that one.
- EPEsther Perel
I mean, when you spend all your time like this, you don't notice who's around you. You don't talk to people on a plane. You don't talk to people in a queue. You don't talk to people while you're waiting for your coffee. I mean, you don't talk to strangers.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- EPEsther Perel
And talking to strangers is improvisation, spontaneity, serendipity, surprise, novelty, you know, an active engagement with the unknown, uh, which is actually one of the definitions that Rachel Botsman gives to s- what is trust. Trust is an active engagement with the unknown. If you don't know to talk to strangers, you have less trust. And you-
- SSSimon Sinek
Sure
- EPEsther Perel
... entering the workplace is talking to strangers. If you just came out of whatever school you've done or not done, and done any other preparation, but any first job is a series of conversations with strangers without knowing what they really want from you, without knowing how they look at you, without understanding the codes. You know, you've just been 12 years in school, you kind of figured out what's, what's the deal, what are the social norms.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
Find yourself in any job, any kind of job, instead you're looking around, it's like moving to a new country.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah. Which further, which further, uh, highlights what we were saying about, which is the biggest es-risk, at-risk population is not little kids. It's, it's, it's early, it's, uh, entry-level employees, right out of high school or college.
- EPEsther Perel
Now, I will add, talking to strangers is sometimes a lot of fun and sometimes uncomfortable.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
And the discomfort piece is a part of life.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
The only way you deal with it is by repeating until it becomes practice. Any skill you will learn at first has an element of discomfort. I think that we've put comfort and discomfort so much in the center of life at this moment because all these apps are supposed to give us frictionless life that is so comfortable, and we bring those very expectations to, to places where that is not the norm. Life is complex and it is all of these other things. So I think talking to strangers, which is a thing that often parents say, "Don't
- 58:33 – 1:00:38
One Daily Habit for Leaders: Active Disengagement
- EPEsther Perel
talk to strangers." No, no, no, absolutely talk to strangers. [chuckles]
- SSSimon Sinek
So good. So good. What's one daily habit that leaders can use to stay true to their priorities when work and home demands collide?
- EPEsther Perel
Oh, that's a beautiful one. What is one thing that leaders can be-- when, when they experience the tension between home and work? I think for some people it's 10 minutes of meditation in the morning, 20, whatever. I mean, just quiet by themselves where you have to accomplish nothing. You don't have to meet the needs of home or work.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- EPEsther Perel
You just have to be in your breath in the moment, you know, in thoughts or without thoughts, depending on the practice of meditation. But I c- the meditation can also be movement. It can be biking, it can be walking, it can be, you know... So it's, it's-
- SSSimon Sinek
It's, it's, it's, it's active disengagement from, from, from the-
- EPEsther Perel
From the responsibility
- SSSimon Sinek
... from the pattern.
- EPEsther Perel
From the responsibility.
- SSSimon Sinek
Responsibility, yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
You know, it's a, it's a moment where you don't have to ful- you don't have to answer anything, you don't have to solve any problem, you don't have to be accountable. And if it's only five minutes because of the reality of your life, let it be five minutes. But to have a moment that is in a third space-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- EPEsther Perel
... away from the obligations, the duties, the responsibility, the accountability of each one-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- EPEsther Perel
... and it's how it pinches on you. And the-
- SSSimon Sinek
And for people, and for people who are uncomfortable with the concept of meditation or don't know how to do it-
- EPEsther Perel
Run! Exercise. Move
- SSSimon Sinek
... to your point, it doesn't matter what you do. The way I do it every single morning, I sit in bed, I do Wordle, I do Connections, and I do the crossword puzzle in that order, and, uh-
- EPEsther Perel
Wordle, crossword puzzle, and?
- SSSimon Sinek
Wordle, Connections, and then crossword, and always in that order.
- EPEsther Perel
You know, I think meditation can be totally in movement.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
It's, uh, it-- I'm, I'm using the word more metaphorically than in its-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- EPEsther Perel
... literal sense. I think connecting is very important. I mean, I've asked many people high into tech and AI, you know, to connect with one person every day, different people
- 1:00:38 – 1:02:30
Hear the Voice: Why Phone Calls Fix What Emails Destroy
- EPEsther Perel
if need be. Could-- But just brief and with voice-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- EPEsther Perel
... not just with text, even if it's a voice message.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
I think that we need to really hear... The voice is the first thing we hear in utero. We need to listen to the voice of people. We will be misinterpreting each other a lot less-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- EPEsther Perel
... if we hear the voice.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah, that's true.
- EPEsther Perel
So that's-- But in all, you, every one of my examples-
- SSSimon Sinek
That's how you, that's how you fix, you know, 55 misinterpretations on an email that escalates, is you have one phone call and it's resolved in five minutes.
- EPEsther Perel
Please. Please. Yes. [laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
You are, you are one of the most, you are one of the wisest, lucid, uh, clearest commentators on the world as we know it today.
- EPEsther Perel
Oh, wow.
- SSSimon Sinek
Um, and I think-
- EPEsther Perel
Thank you
- SSSimon Sinek
... I, I hope-- I know, I know that your, your, your current work is bringing what you've learned from years of relationship therapy into the workplace, which as we've already determined, is irrelevant in terms of the, the context because it's about human relationships. The quality of your relationships determine the quality of your life, and you are-
- EPEsther Perel
At work and at home.
- SSSimon Sinek
And at work and at home. And, and you are, you are, you are the OG, you are the Mack Daddy, you are the, you're the best. I'm such a fan of you, your work, and I'm so-
- EPEsther Perel
It's a treat
- SSSimon Sinek
... glad I get to call you friend.
- EPEsther Perel
[chuckles] It's mutual, and thank you so much. [sighs]
- SSSimon Sinek
I love you. I'll talk to you soon.
- EPEsther Perel
Bye-bye. [outro music]
- SSSimon Sinek
A Bit of Optimism is brought to you by The Optimism Company and is lovingly produced by our team, Lindsay Garbinus and Devon Johnson. If I was able to give you any kind of insight or some inspiration or made you smile, please subscribe wherever you enjoy listening to podcasts for more. And if you're trying to get answers to a problem at work or want to advance a dream, maybe I can help. Simply go to simonsinek.com. Until then, take care of yourself, take care of each other.
Episode duration: 1:02:31
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