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Simon SinekSimon Sinek

Why This Baseball Team Has a 4.2 Million Person Waitlist With Jesse Cole | A Bit of Optimism Podcast

We talk a lot about building successful things. But what does it actually take to build something people love? Jesse Cole has built an entirely new genre of entertainment: The Savannah Bananas and the Banana Ball League. They’re a viral sensation, selling out stadiums across the country, and have over 4.2 million fans on their ticket waitlist. On the surface, Banana Ball looks like a wild and entertaining version of baseball. But underneath it all is something much more disciplined: an obsession with the fan experience. Jesse calls his approach _Fans First_ and it’s more than a slogan and the title of his book… It’s a standard. Every minute of the two-hour games are crammed with attention grabbing spectacle. It’s a full-blown live experience designed for every seat in the stadium: players dance, fans are part of the show, trick plays defy the laws of physics, there are multiple sing-alongs… all during an actual baseball game. In this conversation, we talk about building something new for others, from embracing years of failure (including selling just two tickets in the first three months), to creating experiences that make people feel included, joyful, and valued. We also discuss how he took inspiration from Disney and PT Barnum, the importance of affordable in-person experiences, and how his team reviews every single detail after every show to get better the next day. Because what Jesse’s building goes beyond just entertainment. It’s a place where people can feel seen for generations to come. And in a world that often moves too fast to build things with care… Those human details might be what matter most. This… is A Bit of Optimism. + + + To learn more about the Banana Ball League or sign up for the ticket waitlist, check out: https://bananaball.com/ Or if you want all things Savannah Bananas, head to: https://thesavannahbananas.com/ + + + Simon is an unshakable optimist. He believes in a bright future and our ability to build it together. Described as “a visionary thinker with a rare intellect,” Simon has devoted his professional life to help advance a vision of the world that does not yet exist; a world in which the vast majority of people wake up every single morning inspired, feel safe wherever they are and end the day fulfilled by the work that they do. Simon is the author of multiple best-selling books including Start With Why, Leaders Eat Last, Together is Better, and The Infinite Game. + + + Website: http://simonsinek.com/ Live Online Classes: https://simonsinek.com/classes/ Podcast: http://apple.co/simonsinek Instagram: https://instagram.com/simonsinek/ Linkedin: https://linkedin.com/in/simonsinek/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/simonsinek Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/simonsinek Simon’s books: The Infinite Game: https://simonsinek.com/books/the-infinite-game/ Start With Why: https://simonsinek.com/books/start-with-why/ Find Your Why: https://simonsinek.com/books/find-your-why/ Leaders Eat Last: https://simonsinek.com/books/leaders-eat-last/ Together is Better: https://simonsinek.com/books/together-is-better/ + + + #SimonSinek

Simon SinekhostJesse Coleguest
Apr 14, 20261h 5mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 0:43

    Designing for the nosebleeds: “Win the upper deck” philosophy

    1. SS

      You're going to the nosebleeds-

    2. JC

      Yes

    3. SS

      ... and trying to understand the experience. And you understand there is a front of stadium experience that is different and better.

    4. JC

      Yeah.

    5. SS

      Nobody minds front of the stadium, but not at the expense of the back of the stadium.

    6. JC

      Everyone's on the first-class experience. They focus on that.

    7. SS

      Right. To go to the back and say, "Let's make this experience wonderful at this price range, at this distance. How do we do that for you?" Is, is unheard of.

    8. JC

      A term that you hear our team say every day is win the upper deck. We feel more purpose because it's like these people, these fans have waited two, three years-

    9. SS

      Yeah, yeah

    10. JC

      ... for tickets. It's their-

    11. SS

      That's crazy

    12. JC

      ... bucket. Like, that's what... That's our wait list is that long. They get their chance. If they go out there and they don't get to feel that interaction, you know, we say every night is someone's first show.

    13. SS

      Yeah.

    14. JC

      Every single night. And so if it's their first show, their- how do we make sure it's special?

  2. 0:43 – 2:20

    What the Savannah Bananas are (and why the waitlist is so massive)

    1. SS

      If you love sports or if you have children or if you happen to like musical theater, then your algorithm is probably feeding you videos of a baseball team dressed in bright yellow uniforms, doing things, let's call it, differently. That's the Savannah Bananas. And like the Harlem Globetrotters from the 1960s to professional wrestling through the 1980s, what the Bananas founder, Jesse Cole, has done is created an entirely new genre of sports entertainment. Jesse was a great ballplayer, whose dreams of going pro didn't happen because of an injury, but he still loved the game, sort of. He found it boring, and so he changed it. Obsessed with every detail of the experience, he started experimenting, teasing out ways to cram excitement into every minute and tailor the experience to fan enjoyment. The players spend hours with fans. They do trick plays and choreographed dances, and it's all happening during a real baseball game. No matter where they go in the country, they sell out stadiums. In fact, they have a four-year waiting list with over 4.2 million people waiting to get a ticket. For Jesse, Fans First isn't just a slogan or the title of his book, it's a standard. And maybe that's why it's working these days because in a world that's optimized for speed and scale, Jesse is building something with care, and his players and his staff and his fans can feel it. This is A Bit of Optimism.

  3. 2:20 – 5:09

    The origin: solving Jesse’s boredom and building something he’d love

    1. SS

      First of all, the fact that you have created an entirely new genre of entertainment-

    2. JC

      [laughs]

    3. SS

      You know, where everybody's looking for apps, everybody's looking for online content-

    4. JC

      Yeah

    5. SS

      ... everyone's trying to sell something to Netflix and Hulu and, you know-

    6. JC

      Yeah

    7. SS

      ... Amazon. You decided to start a thing that's in real life. You can sell out a stadium more easily than the local team. What was the birth of the idea?

    8. JC

      Well, we won't s- we wouldn't sell out when we first started.

    9. SS

      Well, yeah.

    10. JC

      I mean, it was, it was a, a real challenge. The birth of the idea, we put ourselves in our fans' shoes. You know, I played baseball my whole life and loved playing, but as soon as I started watching, I realized there were challenges. Too long, too slow, too boring. Parts of the game that were just, "Why is this happening?" You know, batters stepping out of the box for 30 seconds and mound visits that take forever. And I realized that it was just, there was an opportunity to create something fun. And you know this, the greatest creators, they create something that they would love.

    11. SS

      Yeah.

    12. JC

      And so I just, I remember watching a game once and I was like, "I am bored out of my mind." Now, I played the game, Simon. So, like, as someone who played, you should love it.

    13. SS

      Yeah, yeah.

    14. JC

      And I didn't. And so, you know, I just said, "What if it was nonstop entertainment? What if, you know, there was music? What if there was dancing? What if there was celebrations? What if it wasn't, you know, the same rules like everyone else?" And then you just started watching how your fans react.

    15. SS

      Yeah.

    16. JC

      After 20 years, you continue to find, you know, a, a method to it on how you can continue to plus it every single night.

    17. SS

      There's so much going on here because my favorite entrepreneurs, you know, the best entrepreneurial ventures are the ones who are solving a problem for themselves or somebody they love.

    18. JC

      100%, yeah.

    19. SS

      Right? 'Cause that's when there's passion behind it.

    20. JC

      Yeah.

    21. SS

      Like, "Why can't I get a good sandwich? I'll make my own" kind of thing, you know?

    22. JC

      Because you put everything into it.

    23. SS

      Well, 'cause you put everything into it.

    24. JC

      You put every ounce of energy. It's, it's George Lucas.

    25. SS

      Yeah.

    26. JC

      He wanted to create a movie he would love. He wanted to create all the sci-fi, all the effects. He wanted to create stuff that didn't exist.

    27. SS

      Yeah.

    28. JC

      And that's why he built one of the greatest film franchises of all time.

    29. SS

      So, so I like baseball. I'm a baseball fan. And one of the things that I actually like about baseball, unlike basketball and things, is that it's a little bit boring-

    30. JC

      Yes

  4. 5:09 – 7:10

    From failing small-team GM to experimenting for a decade

    1. JC

      Yeah. Well, uh, a- again, it comes to the origin. So I, I learned so much from Walt Disney and PT Barnum. So when I first started, I was a 23-year-old GM in a tiny little town and team, Gastonia, North Carolina, and there was $268 in the bank account. You know, they only had a couple hundred fans coming to the games, and we were failing. I was meeting with all these people. I'd go, "Hey, come see our show." You know, and I call it a show 'cause I was trying to make it into... And they're like, "Oh, no, uh, we don't like baseball," you know. "It's too, too long, too slow." And I finally said like, "Well, we're gonna make it all about entertainment." And you started getting interest, and they're like, "Well, what do you mean?" I was like-... players are gonna dance. And I said this before, players dance. I just said it out loud. But I started thinking about all those things, and when you look at Walt Disney and PT Barnum, what they did is they said, "All right. We are gonna bring together some of the best..." Like PT Barnum, he's like, "We're gonna bring together some of the most unique entertainment forms and put them in together and create a show." And that's what he did at his museum first. And then Walt Disney said, "I'm gonna control the experience." What he realized is that literally when people come in, I'm gonna control the music, I'm gonna sound, I'm gonna have custom rides, not like everyone else. It's not gonna be the same amusement park. So you never know. It's a feeling you're gonna get. And so when I started reading about Walt and PT, I was like, "We gotta promote and create something that people haven't seen before." And that's when you start experimenting and, and failing, and a lot of failure. Like, almost every promotion that we came up with the first 10 years, to an extent, failed, but that's how you learn from your fans.

    2. SS

      10 years is a long time to keep going.

    3. JC

      That was 10 years of a team that no one even knew about, before we even started the Bananas. And, yeah, but we were having fun doing it. When you have a grandma beauty pageant and you have, you know, women in their, in their 80s, you know, strutting their stuff and dancing and watching the crowd react-

    4. SS

      You were having fun.

    5. JC

      I was having fun, and some fans were starting to have fun.

    6. SS

      Right.

    7. JC

      And when you'd see the players, and now they're doing a choreographed dance during the innings, and fans are like, "That's fun." And players celebrating after they score, not just, like, high-fiving, but doing full-on celebrations. It started to kind of slowly grow, and in that team, we went from a couple hundred fans a game to, you know, 2,000 fans a game, and then I saw there was an inkling of something.

    8. SS

      Right.

    9. JC

      There- And so that's when I was like, "Well, what if we started from scratch?"

  5. 7:10 – 8:56

    Not ‘make baseball faster’—make baseball the canvas for a show

    1. SS

      I don't think your origin story is entirely true. The-

    2. JC

      I'm intrigued on this

    3. SS

      ... and I don't doubt the, I don't doubt the veracity of it. When you said, "I wanted the game to go faster and be more entertaining," that, I don't think that's true because, like, professional baseball, as we said before, yes, it's slow, and yes-

    4. JC

      Yeah

    5. SS

      ... for some, it's quite boring. And if you want it to go faster and be more entertaining, you would've put more stuff on the screen, you would've had stuff come in between, and you would've added the pitch clock to make the game go a little faster.

    6. JC

      Yeah.

    7. SS

      So what, yours was slightly different. You were a GM of a tiny rinky-dink-

    8. JC

      Yeah

    9. SS

      ... you know, w- I don't even know if it's triple A. It's like-

    10. JC

      Oh, no. It's college summer baseball.

    11. SS

      Okay. So it's college summer baseball. [laughs] I mean, it's-

    12. JC

      Let's keep going down.

    13. SS

      Right. It's like 7A baseball team. [laughs]

    14. JC

      It's, it's not even professional. You can't even pay the guys.

    15. SS

      You can't even pay the guys.

    16. JC

      It's-

    17. SS

      Okay. You have an unknown league with an unknown team with 200 fans coming, and you are trying to get people to come, as you called it, to the show-

    18. JC

      Yes

    19. SS

      ... which is different than trying to make baseball more fun.

    20. JC

      Yeah, that's how it start- You're right, 100%.

    21. SS

      Right?

    22. JC

      It was trying to get them to come.

    23. SS

      'Cause-

    24. JC

      We didn't change the game for-

    25. SS

      You-

    26. JC

      ... 15 years

    27. SS

      ... right. So you're trying to get people to come to the show, and people's first reaction was, "Well, I don't like baseball." So what's going through your head is, "Well, if I make it not baseball-"

    28. JC

      Yes

    29. SS

      ... baseball is just the, the, the canvas, but it's-

    30. JC

      Yeah

  6. 8:56 – 10:37

    Continuous improvement as a system: LCP and “never stale” execution

    1. SS

      Yeah, because you're not competing against baseball. You're competing-

    2. JC

      No

    3. SS

      ... against Netflix, and you're competing against video games-

    4. JC

      Yeah

    5. SS

      ... and staying at home or Disneyland.

    6. JC

      100%, and, and, right, but I mean, again, and without being cliche, it's like, uh, every day we compete religiously against ourselves.

    7. SS

      Yeah.

    8. JC

      Like, we do 15 to 20 things every night that we've never done in front of a live crowd, every single night. After every show, our whole team does an LCP, learn, change, plus, two to three-page report on every single promotion, every single detail, every single OTT moment, we call over-the-top moment, every celebration, and we have full notes. And then the next day, it's how are we gonna get better because we wanna make sure the fans never feel like, get stale.

    9. SS

      Well, this is something you and I have in common, the idea that the greatest competition is yourself.

    10. JC

      100%.

    11. SS

      You know, this is the infinite game. And what I l- love about this is, is, and I hope, w- whether people are entrepreneurs or not entrepreneurs, when they're listening to this, which is this has nothing to do with sports. This has nothing to do with baseball. This has nothing to do with live entertainment even. This has to do with a philosophy that you have to make a great product that people want.

    12. JC

      Mm-hmm. Well, bring people together.

    13. SS

      Bring people together.

    14. JC

      It's just, that's, it's, it's joy.

    15. SS

      It's joy.

    16. JC

      'Cause if you want it, when, you feel alive. Like, I look for moments where you're not paying attention to anything else. You're not thinking about where you're gonna be. You're not on your phone. You truly feel alive and in a moment, and I think now more than ever, people need that.

    17. SS

      Yeah.

    18. JC

      And when I feel that, and I, when I see our fans feeling that, and everyone's singing "Yellow" in the whole stadium, they're lighting up. They have their flashlights, and everyone's singing "Yellow," 40,000 people. You look around, and you can see goosebump, feel it. It's those moments that I know nowhere else in the world this is happening, and that's that live experience, and every night I'm chasing those moments that people get to feel that, and when you feel a part of something. I think we all wanna feel a part of something. That's the bigger picture.

  7. 10:37 – 11:16

    Scale, culture, and the “cast”: building a place people want to work

    1. SS

      So how many team, you have now how many teams now?

    2. JC

      We have six teams.

    3. SS

      And how many people work for the organization?

    4. JC

      [laughs] We travel with 200, 150 to 200. We have three tours going on at once. Then we have hundreds back at home. I mean, we're probably approaching 1,000. I was told today we have 14,000 on our waitlist to work with us, which makes me even more proud than the waitlist of 4.2 million to get tickets right now.

    5. SS

      Wow.

    6. JC

      'Cause we don't focus on anything else. We, every night we're focusing on how do we create a good experience for our players, our cast, and the fans, and if we can create a remarkable experience, an unforgettable experience-

    7. SS

      Yeah

    8. JC

      ... everything else takes care of itself.

    9. SS

      I mean, you are a modern-day Walt Disney.

    10. JC

      [laughs] That's, uh, one of the highest compliments I could... That means a lot.

    11. SS

      And it's a ref-

    12. JC

      Especially from you

  8. 11:16 – 13:28

    Rejecting venture pressure: purity of purpose vs growth-for-growth’s-sake

    1. SS

      ... it's, it's refreshing. It's also so refreshing, right? I'm tired of the entrepreneur world.

    2. JC

      Yeah.

    3. SS

      I'm kind of sick of it all, and it's, it's not as pure as it used to be. I sound fuddy-duddy, but there used to be the belief that if you, uh, had a corporate job, for example-

    4. JC

      Yes

    5. SS

      ... there used to be the belief that if you worked for a private company, it was, y- you had more control, right?

    6. JC

      Yeah.

    7. SS

      Like, because you could go to work at a public company, and you can get laid off any day, but, you know, there was stability in, in the private company, right? That's no longer true.Um, because so many small companies, so many startups are venture-backed now-

    8. JC

      Mm

    9. SS

      ... that the pressures from a venture capital or an investor base on these small businesses-

    10. JC

      Yeah

    11. SS

      ... is the same or worse than the public markets.

    12. JC

      It's brutal.

    13. SS

      You see basically private companies operating like public companies, where it's growth for growth's sake, growth, you know-

    14. JC

      Yeah

    15. SS

      ... that's all they're doing is pressure for growth, and I'm kind of sick of entrepreneurs talking to me about their liquidity events and their IPOs. The purity of the reason to start a business, you know, the reason to start a business is because there's something lacking in the market that I thought I needed.

    16. JC

      Yes.

    17. SS

      And I think that other people need this too, or other people have this problem, and you know what? Damn it, I'm gonna be the one to give them. And that's where the passion comes from. I think you make better decisions-

    18. JC

      100%

    19. SS

      ... when you're thinking of a human being on the receiving end-

    20. JC

      Yeah

    21. SS

      ... of your product, not a, a, a shareholder or an investor-

    22. JC

      It's-

    23. SS

      ... on the receiving end of your product

    24. JC

      ... it's everything.

    25. SS

      'Cause you have no desire to go public.

    26. JC

      I've said no to every single-

    27. SS

      Yeah

    28. JC

      ... group that's reached out.

    29. SS

      Why would you want it?

    30. JC

      Because they have different goals.

  9. 13:28 – 15:31

    Fans First in action: grief, empathy, and a culture adopted by players

    1. JC

      And, and it was hard, and we didn't sleep. But when we went through that, and every day we got up excited about, "Get to that first show. We can show fans. Get to that first show," because we were doubted. You know, people, we were called the Bananas and then the city was ripping us apart because, you know, "Why are you calling our city something silly and-

    2. SS

      Right

    3. JC

      ... stupid?" as they would say. But once we got to that first show, we felt it. And what, you know, it was crazy. That first night, I'll never forget the first night. Players have been there a few days, but we talk fans first. Everything we do, the reason why we do what we do is for the fans. Create moments that truly matter, 'cause nothing matters more than making people feel like they matter. Like, we talked about that over and over again. And so I remember halfway through the night, a young woman comes up to me and she goes, um, "Can I get a signed ball?" And I say, "I'll, I'll do what I can, you know, right after the game." And she goes, "No, it would mean more to me than anything." And I, I go, "Why? What's going on?" She's like, "You know, I'm here. My fiance had come to every single opening night at this stadium since he was a kid, and I'm here with his family. He just tragically died last week, and we're here in tribute to him to be here for the opening night." And she goes, "If you give me a signed ball, it would mean a lot for the family." I said, "Of course. Of course." She goes, "There's one more thing. My fiance's name was Drew Moody. You have a player on your team named Drew Moody." And at that point, Drew wasn't with us yet, but his younger brother, Logan Moody, was with us. And, and Logan's 18 years old. I go tell Logan the story. He goes, "I got this." He went and got the entire team to sign the ball, and he went up and he sat right down next to her. He gave her a hug, and he stayed there for a whole inning just sitting with her, and he came back down afterwards and gave her a big hug, came back down, and I said, "Logan, what was that?" He goes, he goes, "Fans first, right?" He was 18 years old-

    4. SS

      Wow

    5. JC

      ... with us for two days. He understood what mattered most.

    6. SS

      Wow.

    7. JC

      And I watched that, and those stories and moments happened every single night with people saying, "It's not about me being on the field, being on my team. It's I'm gonna create a moment and make sure I'm there for someone that needs it."

    8. SS

      Wow.

    9. JC

      You know, I was 30, 31 years old, this brand-new owner of this team, and I just like, "Wow, all right. It's so much bigger than who wins the game. People need to feel those." And that happens every night at our stadium.

  10. 15:31 – 20:47

    Why players join: second chances, identity, and playing better through fun

    1. SS

      So we're talking about the fans. Let's talk about the players.

    2. JC

      Yeah.

    3. SS

      'Cause they're good baseball players.

    4. JC

      Tremendous.

    5. SS

      And so, you know, what's happening in their career that, that they decided to go this direction versus-

    6. JC

      Yeah

    7. SS

      ... the pros or as a post-pro?

    8. JC

      We all have something in common. At one point in our life, we've all been cut, we've all been rejected, we've all been told we're not good enough. That's happened to all of us. So they all got to Single A, Double A, Triple A, one step away from the Majors, some of them in college, and they were told they weren't good enough. And then this opportunity came up, and so a few guys take a chance on us in the beginning when we were kind of saying, "Who is this Banana Ball crazy thing?" And they started working on trick plays, dances, celebrations, and it became a part of what they loved. What we realized is when you have fun, you play better, and it's proven. We've actually done study. Like, it's when you have fun, you play better. And so these guys come out, and even if they strike out two or three times, they understand that, "Hey, I'm gonna go make a trick play. I'm gonna go have a celebrate. I'm gonna go with the fans and go, you know, do some pictures and do whatever." That makes a difference, and so these guys now, at first we had no one that wanted to play for us, like, "What is this?" Now, I mean, we have even a Major League All-Star and World Series champion who plays full time with us.

    9. SS

      Wow.

    10. JC

      And so now it's really become something because every night they're playing in front of a sold-out crowd.

    11. SS

      That's fun.

    12. JC

      And every night they're going out and having fun with the fans and staying. It's just a different purpose.

    13. SS

      Are the teams still playing to win? Like, there's no-

    14. JC

      Yeah

    15. SS

      ... set outcome.

    16. JC

      No.

    17. SS

      Like-

    18. JC

      So that's the big thing. When people compare us to the Globetrotters, at first I'm like, "Okay." But the Globetrotters, you know, 100 years, you know, that's pretty impressive. How many companies make it 100-plus years?

    19. SS

      Right.

    20. JC

      But the Globetrotters in 1940s, they were the most famous and popular sports team in the world. Th- and it wasn't even close. Th- they played in front of 70,000 people in Berlin. Wilt Chamberlain chose to play for the Globetrotters before playing for the Lakers. They beat the Lakers. They were playing competitive games. But then Abe Saperstein, who was one of the greatest promoters of all time, he said, "Oh, we can really expand this. Let's grow this." And he said, "We're gonna do the same show every night."

    21. SS

      Yeah.

    22. JC

      "We're gonna have three Globetrotter teams-

    23. SS

      Yeah

    24. JC

      ... and we're just gonna spread and go out." I learned from that. If the Globetrotters back in the 1940s, if they'd have said, "You know what? We're gonna create our own league-"

    25. SS

      Yeah

    26. JC

      ... there might not be an NBA, and here's why. Because the NBA used to book the Globetrotters so they could get fans to stay for the NBA games. That's how popular the Globetrotters were. They were doing the flair, the fun, all of this, but they said, "We're just gonna do the same show 'cause it's easier."

    27. SS

      Right.

    28. JC

      I love every night, every week. We spend all week working on brand new ideas

    29. SS

      So it's not, it's not wrestling. Like-

    30. JC

      No

  11. 20:47 – 21:45

    Breaking the barrier: the pregame experience and meeting fans for hours

    1. SS

      Yeah. I mean, look, what you're doing wouldn't work in professional sports. You have the freedom to do these things. We could never s- make sp- professional sports as fun.

    2. JC

      Yeah.

    3. SS

      You know?

    4. JC

      But I think there's pieces that can.

    5. SS

      Go on.

    6. JC

      You can break down the barrier between the fans and the players. Why do you have to have so much of a barrier? You know, people don't realize our players go and meet the fans for hours.

    7. SS

      Yeah.

    8. JC

      When the gates open at 2:00.

    9. SS

      I was blown away by this, that a game started at 7:00 PM, but the gates open at 2:00.

    10. JC

      At 2:00.

    11. SS

      That's unheard of.

    12. JC

      And there's thousands waiting because the players, the first impression matters.

    13. SS

      Yeah.

    14. JC

      The first thing they see, we do a big opening, first thing they see is all the players greeting them-

    15. SS

      Yeah

    16. JC

      ... at 2:00.

    17. SS

      Yeah.

    18. JC

      They sign till 3:00. Then we do an hour and 15 minute show out in front of the stadium, and then at 4:15 we do our big march. This is where both teams, our band, all of our cast, we go through and march through 10,000, 15,000 fans, and we make sure we feel it. We know they're here for us.

    19. SS

      Yeah.

    20. JC

      They're not necessarily, "Are you gonna get a single? Are you gonna strike a guy?" They're here for this experience.

    21. SS

      Yeah.

    22. JC

      They're here to meet you. And when we get on the stage and do the big opening at 4:30, it's very clear who we're playing for.

  12. 21:45 – 27:21

    Lessons from P.T. Barnum and Walt Disney: promotion and total experience design

    1. SS

      What did you learn from PT Barnum?

    2. JC

      I mean, you, you look at him, it's promotion.

    3. SS

      Right.

    4. JC

      He was the greatest. People always say, "You know, Jesse, could you, could you do this right now without social media?" You know, people know us a lot 'cause of social media.

    5. SS

      Sure.

    6. JC

      We have 35 million followers, but like, yeah, PT Barnum didn't have social media.

    7. SS

      Right.

    8. JC

      What people don't realize about marketing, I've learned this, uh, over the years. Everyone's like, "Oh, you guys are good at marketing." I'm like, "We spend zero dollars marketing."

    9. SS

      Yeah.

    10. JC

      We invest everything in the experience, and we capture that and share that.

    11. SS

      Yeah.

    12. JC

      Make your experience so remarkable that it does all the marketing for you.

    13. SS

      Yeah.

    14. JC

      And so what, PT Barnum did the exact same thing. He made sure when you came to his museum, you were gonna see things, you were gonna feel things that you've never seen before.

    15. SS

      Right.

    16. JC

      And people leave that museum and they tell everybody. And with Jenny Lind, he created a whole story about her. And then when she came over, overseas to perform, she sold out everywhere, and people didn't even know who she was, but he created stories and started talking about her, not just her music. He could build and promote, and then she performed and people were blown away, and then they kept coming back. And so PT Barnum was the greatest promoter, I think of all time, and then Walt Disney is where my biggest inspiration is, and, you know, his, his vision was a different level.

    17. SS

      What did you learn from Walt Disney?

    18. JC

      Well, he said, "It's kind of fun to do the impossible." And Walt was told every step of the way that he couldn't do something, but he saw a better way by putting himself in his guests' shoes. You know, "You can't do a full-length animation film, you can't do sound, you can't do color. An amusement park? What are you talking about?" He went to all those amusement parks.

    19. SS

      Yeah.

    20. JC

      And everyone said, "You can't do this. Look, they're dirty. They all have the same rides. It's not a good experience."

    21. SS

      Yeah.

    22. JC

      He goes, "That's the exact reason why I'm gonna do it." And they told him it's gonna fail. They said, "Why are you putting all this money in landscaping and a castle and these... You know, there's, there's no money. There's no money there." He goes, "No, I wanna create an experience that is truly special, that makes you feel something." And Walt said, "You know, at movie theater, once you do something, it's done."

    23. SS

      Yeah.

    24. JC

      He goes, "The great thing about Disneyland, it's a living, breathing thing. It'll never be complete. We will always plus the show." And so that was great 'cause he learned, you go to a movie theater, the show is over. It might be dirty, how people treat you. He goes, "What if when you, you have one entrance?" Which everyone said, "Can't do one entrance, Walt. You got everyone coming down." "I want you to see the berm and see the flowers come out, and then see Main Street, then the castle, the music happens, and then you're gonna feel this."He mapped it like a movie.

    25. SS

      Yeah.

    26. JC

      So that's what we try to do every night.

    27. SS

      Yeah.

    28. JC

      When people first come to our stadium, we map the feeling till the end of the night with "Stand By Me," which is one of the most powerful things. All the cast, all of us, arms around each other, the band playing in the middle, we're singing "Stand By Me." It sounds kumbaya-

    29. SS

      Yeah

    30. JC

      ... but it's a moment. Again, you feel together, and you've gone through a whole experience. That I love.

  13. 27:21 – 36:33

    Fear, persona, and the yellow tux: permission to play (and fear of irrelevance)

    1. SS

      Do you, do you have fear?

    2. JC

      Yeah.

    3. SS

      What are you afraid of?

    4. JC

      I'm at my worst when, probably the gap and the gain mindset, when I, we work so hard to nail something, and it can go wrong, and I have this expectation of this amazing performance, this amazing show. That's when I'm at a tough point.

    5. SS

      I have to believe that the yellow tuxedo is in part branding, but also in part a reminder to you that-

    6. JC

      Yeah

    7. SS

      ... you have to be this persona.

    8. JC

      100%.

    9. SS

      'Cause if you just show up in a-

    10. JC

      Yeah

    11. SS

      ... in a jersey and jeans-

    12. JC

      Or, or, or, or a, a, a buttoned-up suit trying to be professional

    13. SS

      ... or a buttoned suit-

    14. JC

      So, so, yes

    15. SS

      ... I mean, th- this is as much a reminder to you. When you see this ridiculous color that you're wearing, you're like, "I gotta be-"

    16. JC

      It's-

    17. SS

      "... yellow all the time."

    18. JC

      The origin of this came from PT Barnum. He was putting on a show.

    19. SS

      Yeah.

    20. JC

      He wore the tails, he wore the hat. He's putting on a show. But for me, it is permission for our team to have fun and not take themselves too seriously.

    21. SS

      Yeah.

    22. JC

      If your owner is in a yellow tux top hat when it's 100 degrees, and he's throwing out-

    23. SS

      Technically it's a bowler.

    24. JC

      Yeah. [laughs] And he... You're right. And he's, and he's, and he's-

    25. SS

      [laughs]

    26. JC

      I mean, I throw Dolce & Banana underwear into the crowd. Like, literally, everyone thinks they're getting a T-shirt, and it's actually our banana logo on the crotch, and I throw it to, like, a grown man that's getting way too excited for a T-shirt. I get it to him, and then he's putting on the Dolce & Banana underwear. It's on the video board. Like, if I'm throwing out Dolce & Banana in a yellow tux and I'm the owner, everyone else can have fun-

    27. SS

      I mean, yeah

    28. JC

      ... and not take themselves too seriously.

    29. SS

      Yeah.

    30. JC

      So it, yes, there is a method, and that's why we all dress up and have fun. It's just, it, it's play. It's joy.

  14. 36:33 – 50:00

    Access, pricing, and fighting extractive economics (Ticketmaster, parking, fees)

    1. SS

      And so I think what you're doing now, and it's one of the reasons I'm such a huge fan of yours, is more important now than ever before. You're making families drive somewhere and have an outing. And by the way, it's not like a Disney vacation, which for some families is a year's worth, or two years', or three years' worth of savings to go on that week vacation

    2. JC

      Yeah

    3. SS

      This is a, is a reasonably priced, on purpose, experience

    4. JC

      Yeah, 40, 50, $60. No ticket fees, no convenience fees. We pay all your, your taxes. I mean, intentionally-

    5. SS

      And, and you- and there's no open market, so the tickets don't spike, and I know you've put a lot of ef- effort into, you know-

    6. JC

      We built our own secondary market at all face value, which w- w- we-

    7. SS

      Is unheard of

    8. JC

      Yes

    9. SS

      And thank you for taking on Ticketmaster.

    10. JC

      [laughs]

    11. SS

      Thank you so much for taking on-

    12. JC

      It's a problem. It's a challenge

    13. SS

      ... that, that monopoly. Your time is now, and I'm, and I'm glad you're seizing it

    14. JC

      Well, thank you. I, I think that's a, a huge responsibility, and I think b- because our group has purpose in why we do what we do, we show up to every stadium, and the first thing we do, we get together, we go to the upper deck, the furthest away seats-

    15. SS

      Yeah

    16. JC

      ... and we talk to them and say, we put ourselves in our fans' seats, seats, say, "How are we gonna make this experience special?" We always break it down on fans first. And at the end of the night, we talk about the stories, the moments that truly matter. And I hope as we grow, that continues to not be taken for granted, and it's understanding why we do what we do, and it's, it's the feeling. And you mentioned the players, but we have 150 cast members. We have so many former pro wrestlers that have now become part of our dad bod cheerleading squad, the Mananas-

    17. SS

      [laughs]

    18. JC

      ... or have become, you know, part of the Beefy Boys on the tailgaters. And they never fully made it, and now they're here, and they're entertaining in front of thousands

    19. SS

      Which is what they wanted to do

    20. JC

      They get to entertain thousands, and they get to feel-

    21. SS

      That's what they wanted to do

    22. JC

      ... they get to feel part of something and proud and-

    23. SS

      Yeah

    24. JC

      ... and doing things. I mean, yes, the Mananas dancing to Beyoncé on the field, they probably didn't have that on their bingo card, but they're doing it, and fans are going nuts and wanting pictures-

    25. SS

      Yeah

    26. JC

      ... and signing autographs. I'm watching regular, you know, just our cast members or people in merchandise and tickets, they sign autographs. Think about that. The idea of signing an autograph, and that people, you go and go to your job, and at, during your job, people come and thank you and ask you for their autograph. You know, I'm very fortunate as the owner, and my wife, we get a lot of the recognition. But nothing makes me feel more fulfilled than seeing our people get that every single day on the job.

    27. SS

      But this is... Th- again, I know this is a broken record, but I can't s- stop, but I'm, like, running other businesses through my head as we're talking. So airlines-

    28. JC

      Mm

    29. SS

      ... put all the attention on the front of the plane-

    30. JC

      Mm-hmm

  15. 50:00 – 53:46

    Fan stories that define the mission: calling every buyer, grief support, and Reggie’s rise

    1. SS

      Tell me one fan story, a specific fan story, that when you think about it, it is the most emblematic story of what you're trying to create for Bananas. Like, when you think- when you're trying to explain to a new cast member, a ne- a new team member, "What we're trying to do is this. Let me tell you the story of X. This captures it better than any other story."

    2. JC

      Oh, geez. I mean, the, the, there, there, there's a lot of stories, but I, I, I go back to the, the root. So when we started, our first seven years, Simon, we called every single fan that buys a ticket and thanked them. We did this up until about 150,000 fans. Now we do it sporadically 'cause we're serving 3.4 million.

    3. SS

      Sure.

    4. JC

      But we call every single fan just to thank them.

    5. SS

      Wow.

    6. JC

      And got a lot of voicemails, but they'd get a voicemail from us. And now we do it during Christmas time. We thank people that buy merchandise, and we... Like, our players, our team, our cast. It's part of what we did. So I said first year, because we were fighting for fans, remember, we only sold two tickets at the beginning. I go, "Guys, anybody who wants to even buy a ticket from us-

    7. SS

      Right. You're genuinely grateful

    8. JC

      ... we are genuinely appreciative 'cause they're giving us a chance."

    9. SS

      Right.

    10. JC

      All right? And so we're calling fans, and we're into the season. You know, the first show happened, a lot of craziness, but we start selling out games. We're doing well. We're still calling our fans. So even our interns, first day, they're, we're calling fans to thank them. And an intern was with us, Barry, and he sees, like, nine tickets. Like, that's a, that was a lot of tickets back then, Simon. Someone bought nine tickets, like a family bought nine tickets, and he called and they didn't answer, and he came in. I was like, "Hey, just try again later. We wanna really make sure that they're appreciated." So he tried the next day. They were coming to a game this coming week, and the dad answered the phone, and he goes, "Uh, uh, I'm so sorry. You know, we, we have seven kids. We're not gonna be able to go to the game. My wife just tragically passed away." Seven kids, dad. And so I remember Barry this, I remember vividly, he goes, Barry goes, "I'm so sorry," you know. He's a 23-year-old intern. He goes, "I'm so sorry, you know. Is there anything we can do?" He's like, "No, no, but appreciate it. Thanks." Quick phone call. Barry walks into my office. He goes, "Jesse, this is what happened." He goes, "What can we do?" One of the best leadership advice I learned from the first owner that I worked for when I was 23 years old, I'd ask him crazy ideas like, "Hey, what about a midnight madness game? What if we did this? What if this?" And he'd always come back to me and say, "Well, what do you think, Jesse?" And he empowered me as a 23-year-old. So in that moment, I just turned to that on, and I said, "Barry, what do you think?" He goes, "Jesse, we gotta do something." And I go, "All right. Well, what can we do?" He goes, "Well, how can we get him out and really do something for the kids?" And I go, "Well, what else do you think? Keep going." He starts writing all these ideas. I go, "Call him, call him back, and when give him a second, say, 'We'd love to take care of your kids and create a special moment.'" So he called the dad back, and the dad answered, and he said, "You know what? It would probably be good to get the kids out of the house." So Barry gave him his number. He said, "As soon as you show up, just give me a call." Showed up, brought him in. He had the front row seats, and Barry had, uh, merchandise and all these things for the kids, but then as soon as they sat down, all the players came, and they just spent time with them. This was before the gates opened, just 20, 30 minutes. Players just... These are all college players at this point, just spending time. And throughout the game, the players would come up and sit with them and celebrate with them, and they stayed till the end of the game, which back when we played traditional baseball, didn't happen at all.

    11. SS

      Yeah.

    12. JC

      No one stayed till the end of a baseball game.

    13. SS

      Right.

    14. JC

      They stayed till the end of the game. They stayed till the end of the night. The players had moments. We gave them some things. And, um, the father, the dad said to Barry, "That was the last gift my wife gave our kids. I could never imagine a better gift." And the kids walked out, and now they, they've become a part of our family.

    15. SS

      Wow.

    16. JC

      They come to the games. And we do a lot more now and a lot more details, but when I think back to a 23-year-old intern-

    17. SS

      Mm

    18. JC

      ... fulfilling a whole night, going the extra level, and having the seven kids there, and seeing that impact, and now that they've become lifelong Bananas fans, Banana Ball fans, I just think about that. He put it together. The players were involved. The cast was involved. They stayed till the end. We created a moment, and it was, it was pretty special.

  16. 53:46 – 1:05:51

    Full circle: childhood roots, Lee Smith, and “swing hard in case you hit it”

    1. SS

      What was your childhood like?

    2. JC

      I was an only child. My dad was an only child. My dad's dad was an only child. My dad's dad's dad was an only child. So, uh, many generations of boy only child. I was a kid trying to make my dad proud, and I'm still that kid trying to make my dad proud. Um, my parents got divorced, um-

    3. SS

      How old were you?

    4. JC

      Eight years old. And, uh, yeah, baseball was everything, me and my dad playing catch and being a part of the game. And so now he travels around the country and, um, is able to, to see what we do and-So there's a lot of stories of my dad that, that mean a lot. And, you know, I grew up outside of Fenway, and I had a dream to play at Fenway Park, play for the Red Sox. And I was a shy, introverted kid when I grew up. Crazily now.

    5. SS

      I mean, it doesn't... Yeah.

    6. JC

      Doesn't fit me at all.

    7. SS

      Doesn't-

    8. JC

      But I was shy and introverted. I was scared of everything. But my dad won an opportunity for me to be honorary bat boy for the Red Sox, and I was sitting in the dugout by myself alone, and one player came up and sat down next to me, and it was a Hall of Famer, Lee Smith. And he spent 20 minutes with me, and just talking to me. You know, he could've been warming up, doing... He, he saw me alone, and he spent 20 minutes with me. And at that point, I told my dad, I said, "Dad, I, I wanna play baseball. I wanna play for the Red Sox." And I didn't realize at that point, but Lee Smith gave me my first fans first moment as a five-year-old kid. And what's crazy, so after that I started playing baseball, and my dad always tells the story. He said, "Jess, you know, whenever you came up, I used to yell," 'cause I was so nervous again. He'd say, "Jess, swing hard in case you hit it."

    9. SS

      [laughs]

    10. JC

      And every time I came up to bat, my dad would say, "Swing hard in case you hit it." And that's been a mindset that's stayed with me. And three years ago, we got a call from the National Baseball Hall of Fame, and they said, "We can't ignore the Savannah Bananas anymore." Not exactly how I expected to get that call, but they said, "We wanna honor you guys and have an exhibit for you, and invite your fans, your players, everyone." And so we show up at the National Baseball Hall of Fame. There's hundreds of people.

    11. SS

      Cooperstown.

    12. JC

      Cooperstown.

    13. SS

      Wow.

    14. JC

      And we show up there, and the first person there greeting me was Hall of Famer Lee Smith.

    15. SS

      Yeah, that's amazing.

    16. JC

      And he had the picture from when I was five years old there. And the reason why we were in the Hall of Fame is because we were fans first, and I learned that from Lee Smith as a five-year-old, and it's changed everything. So it's full circle from that shy, introverted kid to now realizing it's a much bigger purpose.

    17. SS

      You know, we've been talking now for, what, the better half of an hour, I guess. And the thing that is consistent in the specific stories you tell, I mean, you told to- two stories of loss.

    18. JC

      Yeah.

    19. SS

      You tell the story of being a shy, introverted kid.

    20. JC

      Yeah.

    21. SS

      You tell a story of sitting on a bench by yourself.

    22. JC

      Yeah.

    23. SS

      You tell stories of going up into the nosebleeds.

    24. JC

      Yeah.

    25. SS

      Um, you tell stories of players who were rejected and had their dreams dashed. And it's, it's... They're all the same story. They're the story of how the world makes us feel.

    26. JC

      Mm-hmm.

    27. SS

      They're the story of having something taken away from us.

    28. JC

      Yeah.

    29. SS

      The story of not being able to participate because of cost or, or a- a- ability, the stories of being sidelined or put on the side.

    30. JC

      Yeah.

Episode duration: 1:05:51

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