Simon SinekWhy Trying to “Sound Smart” is Losing You the Room | Strategic Story Producer Rob Willis
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
50 min read · 9,585 words- 0:00 – 3:12
The Former Tour Guide Who Cracked the Code
- SSSimon Sinek
The way I define charisma is, is believing in the thing that you're talking about, you know?
- RWRob Willis
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
It's not about jumping off the walls and energy. I... There's some very quiet speakers who have unbelievable charisma.
- RWRob Willis
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And the charisma is, you can tell they really believe in the things they're telling you.
- RWRob Willis
Yeah. I heard a great definition of charisma. It's charisma is empathy and authority, someone who cares about you and someone who can look after you. 'Cause you wouldn't want, you know, someone who's just very, very capable but doesn't care about you. Equally, someone who cares about you but ha- can't do anything.
- SSSimon Sinek
That's true. We all want to be credible when we speak. We want people to think we're smart, that we know what we're talking about. So what do we do? We do more. We provide more data, more slides, more proof that we're the expert in whatever we're talking about. But it doesn't work, because then we see the speaker who comes right after us with few, if any, slides, and they can't remember the exact dates of things, and they get things wrong, and yet they hold the room, and everyone talks about their talk after the meeting. That's why I invited Rob Willis on the podcast. Rob calls himself a Strategic Story Producer, and I first discovered him on Instagram, where he breaks down how great speakers actually speak, and he actually did one on me. But it's how Rob learned what it takes to be a great speaker that I find fascinating. He was a tour guide in Berlin, and not a very good one, it turns out, at least not at first. He started doing what most of us would do. He loaded up on dates and facts, and the more impressive his knowledge, the less money he made. And so he studied the guides who made the most money. Those guides actually gave less information, but the information they gave, they communicated those points through a few brilliantly told human stories. Whether we're pitching an idea or leading a meeting, our job isn't to prove how much we know. It's to give our audience something they can relate to, something they'll remember. And Rob is so good at explaining how we can do that, unsurprisingly. If you like this episode, please do remember to subscribe. This is A Bit of Optimism. [upbeat music] This episode is proudly brought to you by SAP. Change used to take years, then months. Now it seems to happen in weeks. And in a world moving that fast, the winners are the companies that have figured out how to adapt at the speed of change. That's why I wanted to talk to David Robinson. As the North American President of Customer Success at SAP, he spent more than two decades helping companies keep up with the pace of change. And he has a surprisingly simple idea about what it actually takes. You can learn more in the middle of this episode. To learn more about SAP, the AI Cloud ERP for businesses of all size, head to sap.com/grow.
- 3:12 – 3:48
Why Trying to Sound Smart is Losing You the Room
- SSSimon Sinek
Rob Willis, thanks for coming on A Bit of Optimism.
- RWRob Willis
Thank you for having me.
- SSSimon Sinek
Um, so I learned about you when my friends all started sending me your video about me, uh, telling people, uh, my rhetorical device for how I start my talks. And we thought, "Wouldn't it be fun if we just invited you on the show to talk about how to talk?" Give people advice on how best to present.
- RWRob Willis
Yeah. I noticed you, you liked it, and for me, it was a very meta moment. My video about Simon Sinek liked by Simon Sinek.
- SSSimon Sinek
I thought it was good.
- RWRob Willis
And, yeah. [laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
I thought it was good. So you've only been doing this a very short period of time, about a
- 3:48 – 6:16
100 Videos in 100 Days
- SSSimon Sinek
year, right?
- RWRob Willis
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Making videos.
- RWRob Willis
Making videos.
- SSSimon Sinek
And you're a thing. Like, my friends all know you, and m- many of them follow you.
- RWRob Willis
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Um, and your v- your videos, they sort of go viral f- quite frequently. How do... Like, w- when, how, what? A year is really quick to, to, to sort of to pop like that.
- RWRob Willis
Yeah. No, I've been ... It w- I, I'm also quite surprised by all of this. And I got into it 'cause I have a friend who's also does Instagram videos. He's one of the big creators about Berlin history. And I saw him doing it, and he was, like, having a good time. He was getting lots of work out of it. And he said, "Rob, you've got to do it." And I was a corporate trainer, and I thought, "No, we've got to do LinkedIn. LinkedIn's the place to be." But then eventually, I thought, "Okay, I'll give it a go." And I thought, "I'll do 100 videos in 100 days," because I, I saw a video from another personal brand expert, and they said, like, "Just resign yourself three months, see what happens." And I gave it 100 days, and then it began to get that momentum. And, you know, that momentum's the kind of thing that keeps you going, isn't it? Like, as long as you can see momentum there, then you keep going with the thing, and then one thing leads to another, and now I'm here in Los Angeles. [laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
So 100 videos in 100, 100 days, that's a hell of a commitment. And you literally made one a day, or did you make, like, four in one day?
- RWRob Willis
It depends on, like, time. Like, if you have a workshop or, you know, a family event or something, or it's the weekend, my, my wife would not let me work on a Sunday.
- SSSimon Sinek
Good. Smart.
- RWRob Willis
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
And when did you realize, "Okay, this is a thing"? Like, "I'm, I'm, I'm, now I'm a, I'm an influencer. I'm a content producer."
- RWRob Willis
[laughs] Influencer.
- SSSimon Sinek
"I'm a thing."
- RWRob Willis
[laughs] I think, uh, the first video that really took off was I broke down a scene from a film called Margin Call, which has this amazing scene where, uh, Jeremy Irons guides an analyst, a junior analyst, through the questions that you need to answer in a kind of executive presentation. And I made a video about that. And it just kind of popped off, and then people started, like, writing in comments and then writing messages to me and so on and saying that they were getting value out of it. And it's kind of bizarre the first time it happens. I'm sure the same was probably true for, for you when you first begin to get the breakthrough and people read your books and they're like, "I've got so much value out of this." I don't know if it's imposter syndrome, but it's certainly weird when it starts.
- SSSimon Sinek
Where did your interest come from evaluating and sort of breaking down how people speak?
- RWRob Willis
Mm-hmm.
- 6:16 – 7:33
Breaking Down the Patterns: What Makes Simon Sinek Work
- RWRob Willis
Well, I, I love seeing patterns in things. So I've got, I, one of my job titles as I like to call myself is, I say Strategic Story Producer, because I used to work in music and work as a music producer. And the work I do now is very, very similar to what I did back then, which is a songwriter would come to me, they'd have a song that would be eight minutes long, have no hook, uh, there would be nothing to latch onto. So my job was to identify what's working in this and make it shorter usually, and make it connect with their audience. And I thought, you know, I see this in films happening, I see it in people's speeches, you know, speakers like you. How do they do what they do? So I just apply that natural pattern recognition-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm
- RWRob Willis
... that I kind of do. I, I, I don't, not really following a framework, I'm just seeing what feels right, what do I think they're trying to do here. And I, I'm very sure that probably a lot of the speakers are not even doing it consciously, they just have a way that they like to-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm
- RWRob Willis
... to speak. It's just how they communicate. Steve Jobs, a great example. I don't think that he went to some amazing speech coach and learned to do it. I think he just, that was him. That was how he, he got ideas across.
- 7:33 – 11:41
Learning to Speak Without a Plan
- RWRob Willis
Uh, when, when you were studying your own speaking, I imagine it, it feels very you, the way you communicate. Is that something you arrived at quite quickly or did you, did it, or d- was it something you had to work on or was it something just through trial and error and you never really knew what made it work, but somehow it seemed to work and you kept doing more of the thing that worked?
- SSSimon Sinek
So I get a kick out of when people make videos telling people the things that I'm doing.
- RWRob Willis
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Because I, it, they, they, they make, some of the videos that I've seen, they make as if, like, I studied this and structured it that way-
- RWRob Willis
Mm
- SSSimon Sinek
... which is not what happens.
- RWRob Willis
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
I learned a few things on purpose and some by accident. So I'm very good on my feet, like extemporaneously. Like, I can show up without a plan. I've given entire speeches before. There's, there's a few speeches that are online, um, where literally somebody said to me as before I went on stage, "What are you gonna talk about?"
- RWRob Willis
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And five minutes before I'm like, "I, I haven't decided yet." And they giggle thinking I'm joking, but I'm being deadly serious.
- RWRob Willis
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
I haven't decided yet. The funny story is, I don't really talk about this publicly, so it's fun. Um, I learned a skill by accident. So I used to pay to go see my favorite speakers years and years ago when I was a young marketer of, you know, folks like Seth Godin and Jim Collins, and I'd go see them in these big events. And I was always struck by how brilliant they were off the cuff, and how spontaneous they were and relaxed they were. And I thought to myself, "I, I wanna be able to do that," you know? And, um, not because I wanted to be a speaker, I just wanted that skill, you know, e- even just presenting for work.
- RWRob Willis
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And I practiced, and basically what I did is I would get presentations for work all the time, you know, pretty traditional, "Here's my PowerPoint. I'm gonna walk you through my PowerPoint."
- RWRob Willis
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Like many people, I'm gonna read most of the slides, you know?
- RWRob Willis
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And I got better at m- I put fewer words on the slide, so I had to kinda know my stuff. I couldn't be too reliant on the slides.
- RWRob Willis
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And then I went to just a couple of slides, and then I went to no slides, and then I went to, like, very prepared to less prepared, and I would, I would sort of practice-
- RWRob Willis
Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... being less prepared so that I could... I knew my thing. It's like people are always amazed, "How do you talk about your thing without preparing?" I was like, "Could you just start talking about your kids and tell me about, you know, about your kids?" And, like, people are like, "Of course." I'm like, "Yes," 'cause you know.
- RWRob Willis
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
I don't have to prepare to tell you something I know.
- RWRob Willis
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
This is my life's work. I know this, you know?
- RWRob Willis
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Um, people just freak themselves out-
- RWRob Willis
Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... which is why they memorize and over study. And, um, and so I got really good at just walking up and being able to share what they're asking me to share, what I know extemporaneously. And then years later, I met some of my heroes who I used to go pay to see on the stage, and I learned that they rehearse and study and practice and memorize, and I completely got it wrong. Because they were so good, I, I thought they had a skill that actually they didn't.
- 11:41 – 12:33
The Knowledge Deficit Trap: Why More Information Doesn't Always Work
- SSSimon Sinek
Some of the most common mistakes.
- RWRob Willis
Well, I think the, the, the, the core challenge which I think people often have is what scientists would call the knowledge deficit model, which is people just lack the information. If you gave them the information, then they would think like you. And I was the same, actually. So the other reason I got into doing communication was I was working as a free tour walk- walking tour guide.
- SSSimon Sinek
Oh, yeah, yeah.
- RWRob Willis
And, yeah, I don't know if you, you've heard about the free tours. You go on a tour, there's no ... payment for a ticket, but you give a tip at the-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- RWRob Willis
... at the end.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- RWRob Willis
And I started that, and I really struggled at the beginning to make any money, not because of stage fright or anything like that, but because I thought it was all about knowledge, dates, and facts. And I thought, "Oh, if I know more, then people are gonna be impressed." And they didn't. They weren't. I made no money.
- 12:33 – 16:20
The Tour Guide Philosophy and Tracking What Actually Works
- RWRob Willis
And I then started to, like you did, go on the tours of the guides who I knew were making good money, and I started trying to work out what are they doing, and I would copy them. And so I started this process of tracking what I was doing and mapping it out on a big spreadsheet, worked out what made more money, what made less money. And the thing that worked was actually less information, not more information, and just distilling things down to a few human stories that people can actually latch onto. And I think the challenge, to go back to your question, that people have is they think it's about the big abstract content.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- RWRob Willis
It's about the data. Whereas really it's about connecting with one person.
- SSSimon Sinek
What a great analogy, the tour guide.
- RWRob Willis
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right? Because if you're giving any kind of presentation, whether it's a sales pitch or a presentation internally to your own company-
- RWRob Willis
Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... you know, it's a bit of a tour.
- RWRob Willis
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
You're taking them, you're, you are the guide taking them through the information, through the history or the future or the ideas.
- RWRob Willis
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And you're 100% right. Having been on many walking tours before, the people who just overwhelm us with data and facts, it, it, it's too much.
- RWRob Willis
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
We're bored, we're tired, we're exhausted by the ... I, I interrupt and go, "Let's, let's go to the next thing." You know, you're trying not to be rude, but you really wanna move on.
- RWRob Willis
Yeah, yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
You know? Where the ones who are funny and charming and tell you a couple of brilliant stories-
- RWRob Willis
Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... they make it, I don't wanna, I, I don't wanna ... They make it entertaining. And I think people are very afraid of this word entertaining 'cause they think entertaining means telling jokes, and sometimes it means that. But really entertaining just means I'm en- I'm enjoying getting from point A to point B.
- RWRob Willis
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
You know?
- RWRob Willis
You're putting it beautifully. I'm getting them from point A to point B. It's another big mistake I think people make is they th- they don't think about taking someone from one place to another. They think about, "Okay, this is what I've got to say."
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- RWRob Willis
Not what they need to hear.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- RWRob Willis
And so it's just a list of facts and information, and it's not really a journey in any sense, and it's not a story. I mean, a journey is kind of a story, I guess-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah, yeah
- RWRob Willis
... you could say. Um, so if people can work out, "Okay, I wanna get people from point A to point B," be that literally in terms of a tour-
- SSSimon Sinek
Right
- RWRob Willis
... or metaphorically in terms of a presentation, and then work out, like, what are the, what are the bits that they need to hear to get from point A to point B?
- SSSimon Sinek
Yep.
- 16:20 – 23:10
Simon's Book Writing Journey
- RWRob Willis
Yeah, you're building energy.
- SSSimon Sinek
Have you ever advised people who are trying to become better presenters, better speakers, to go on walking tours?
- RWRob Willis
No, but I think I might.
- SSSimon Sinek
I think it's-
- RWRob Willis
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
... uh, because I think it's whether they go well or whether they go badly, I think this is, I'm, I ... The, this is a huge takeaway, which is the, the, what you accidentally learned. Like, it sort, it sort of opened up your career, right?
- RWRob Willis
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Doing the stuff that you're doing now, I mean, that's the origin story.
- RWRob Willis
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
It came from you being a guide. And I think being a guide, being a tour guide is so perfect-
- RWRob Willis
Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... to learn how to present because literally your job is to hold people's attention, and especially on a free tour, they can just walk away.
- RWRob Willis
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Because they haven't paid any money and they're not trying to get their money's worth.
- RWRob Willis
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
They're just saying, "If this is interesting, I'll keep doing it."
- RWRob Willis
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
You know? Um, many times have I, you know, in a museum just sort of s- sidled up to a tour that was happening, and I either stayed for one picture or I left.
- RWRob Willis
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Um, and it wasn't about how smart they were. It's about how good they were at telling me, telling me stories and, and keeping me engaged. Writing is the same, though the techniques might be different. Writing is like, my goal is, if I'm in chapter one or section one, my goal is to take you to chapter two.
- RWRob Willis
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And I have to give you, uh, I have to make it interesting enough in what I'm saying and how I'm saying it so that when you get to chapter two, not only do you want to be there, you really wanna get to chapter three.
- RWRob Willis
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And so it's, it's, it's the exact same thing in presenting.
- RWRob Willis
How did you start a, a first book? 'Cause if, uh, y- th- it's, uh, your ... How many books have you written now?
- SSSimon Sinek
Five.
- RWRob Willis
Five. So I-
- SSSimon Sinek
Three really.
- RWRob Willis
Three.
- SSSimon Sinek
'Cause one's a workbook and one's based off a children's book-
- 23:10 – 25:53
The Art of the Distilled Message
- RWRob Willis
So there's actually, you are, you are featured in, in my, my workshops because of one thing that I think you have managed to do better than, than most people, which is distill things down to a message or an idea. It's very, very easy to kind of clip or, um, turn into a short or anything like that. And the, the, the line that I love so much is, "People don't buy what you do, they buy why you do it."
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- RWRob Willis
And I use that to explain what is the big message of your, of presentation. And I've got some tests that I run people through. Is it a statement of belief?
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- RWRob Willis
Statement of belief. Could you argue against it? You could argue against that, for sure. Um, is it self-explanatory? It's self-explanatory. And is it just one point that you're making? And it's, it's one point. So I use that as, as an example. Uh, I always wonder how do you, how do you get to something like, so something so distilled? Was that, I mean, did, you didn't just come up with that in the day, did you? [chuckles]
- SSSimon Sinek
The first time I did it?
- RWRob Willis
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
I mean, almost everything I have come up with was spontaneous at some point.
- RWRob Willis
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Um, I, I don't have a process where I sit down- And sort of like test things.
- RWRob Willis
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
So at some point it probably was spontaneous, and then I kept it. But I think when you're making the case that the why is the thing that has to come first, and if you look at the great brands, I think when you sort of, when you're distilling the idea down to its essence, it, I think those little clippable, quotable bits become quite obvious.
- RWRob Willis
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
I, I don't, I, you know, which is I'm explaining this thing called the why, and that's the thing that motivates, motivates the purchase behavior, the vote-
- RWRob Willis
Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... the, the support, whatever it is, you know? And the what is the result, even though you think that's the reason they're buying it.
- RWRob Willis
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
You know, it's clear that people don't buy what you do, they buy why you do it.
- RWRob Willis
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Like, it is sort of a, anybody could have, if you go down the logic train, I think you get there.
- RWRob Willis
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
I just went down the logic train, I guess.
- RWRob Willis
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Such a good question. I don't know the answer.
- RWRob Willis
And, I mean, do you apply the same thing to your frameworks? I mean, did you just one day draw three circles on a bit of paper and think, "That's it. That's what I'm trying to get to"?
- SSSimon Sinek
I mean, I think visually.
- RWRob Willis
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And so people think that I have that pad and pen out there as this sort of clever device, but I didn't do it for you, I did it for me.
- RWRob Willis
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Because when I'm thinking, and especially if I'm doing something extemporaneously, I need that. 'Cause, like, if you sit down with me and have a meeting with me, invariably I'm gonna grab a piece of paper and a pen to explain my ideas 'cause I think visually.
- 25:53 – 26:55
The Bolt of Lightning Myth: How Great Ideas Really Happen
- SSSimon Sinek
It's really funny, is it happened a long time ago.
- RWRob Willis
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
So I don't-- And I think we tend to sort of romanticize and rewrite history. But I think, you know, I think the thing that has to, that people have to remember is all ideas feel like a bolt of lightning, but they're not really.
- RWRob Willis
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
You know, there's, it's like anybody. It's like little bits, little bits, little bits, and then the final articulation is the bolt of lightning. But it didn't come out of nowhere.
- RWRob Willis
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
You know, it came out of lots of conversations and lots of thinking and lots of reading and lots of-
- RWRob Willis
Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... you know, sort of trying to understand, and then you arrive at what seems to be a bolt of lightning, you know?
- RWRob Willis
Yeah. I heard therapy described as like a, a spiral. I think it's kind of the same. You're trying all of these different angles-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- RWRob Willis
... and then bit by bit you're getting closer and closer and closer, and then one day finally you get it. It's not linear.
- SSSimon Sinek
No.
- RWRob Willis
So in that sense-
- SSSimon Sinek
Everybody, everybody on the planet has had an aha.
- RWRob Willis
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
"Wait a minute, it's this." That's all it is. Like, if you talk about something enough and study something enough, you too will come to some realization.
- RWRob Willis
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Whether that realization is, you know, original or whether it's shared by others is irrelevant, but you will come to some re- sort of realization.
- 26:55 – 29:10
Let Them Get There First: The Power of the Aha Moment
- SSSimon Sinek
My, there's a few rhetorical devices that are really important to me, which is, and it goes back to your idea, do you wanna be the smartest person in the room? Look how smart I am. Look at all the stuff I know. And when I write and when I speak, I, it's ver- and I love, this is why I'm sort of glomming onto your example, your metaphor of the guide. It's very important to me that I'm not the smartest guy in the room.
- RWRob Willis
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And I want my audience to come to my conclusion one slide, one paragraph, one sentence before I do. And so I'm feeding them my logic of how I got to my own conclusion, and then as soon as I get to people don't buy what you do, they buy why you do it, or any other sort of conclusion, everybody's like, "Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Totally saw that coming." As opposed to, "Wait for it. Wait for it. Look how smart I am."
- RWRob Willis
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Like, and I think a lot of people do that. They try and be the smartest person in the room because they're on the stage.
- RWRob Willis
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And I think the opposite is more fun, which is how do you guide people through an idea? How do you guide people through a, a story that they will come to your conclusion before you do?
- RWRob Willis
Seth Godin talked about this in terms of education. Too many of us rob our audience or our students of the aha moment, and the aha m- moment is so much more powerful than any rhetorical device-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- RWRob Willis
... that you're, I mean, it is kind of a rhetorical device, but any way that you're saying the thing, the fact that you've made it inevitable, that's what's powerful. That's what gets people to, to see the world as you do. And I think that's maybe another mistake that people make is, to use your example, they would just go on stage and they would say, "People don't buy what you do, they buy why you do it." And then people would be, imagine the, the reaction-
- SSSimon Sinek
They like content
- RWRob Willis
... of an audience. They'd be like, "What? What are you talking about?"
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- RWRob Willis
[chuckles]
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- RWRob Willis
Um, and would actually in some cases produce a kind of reactance. People would push back against it and say, "Actually, I don't think. I think, pretty sure they buy what they do."
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah. [chuckles] Exactly. And, and this is the other thing, which is there's no one way to speak, you know? And I think, you know, a lot, like there are many great speakers. They all have slightly different or very different styles, and there's no one style that's right. Who are some of your favorite speakers that their techniques have actually made you better at what you do?
- 29:10 – 31:47
Hans Rosling and What is True Charisma
- SSSimon Sinek
Um-
- RWRob Willis
So for me, one of the best speakers of all time, probably Hans Rosling. And if you do a workshop with me, you're gonna see a lot of Hans Rosling.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- RWRob Willis
Like just rammed down their throat because also he doesn't really look like what you imagine a speaker to be. When we imagine a speaker, we imagine this very clipped, perfect-
- SSSimon Sinek
Coiffed hair
- RWRob Willis
... the, the kind of 1980s style-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah, yeah, yeah
- RWRob Willis
... you know? And that's not what people connect with. People connect with him because he just looks like a regular dude.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- RWRob Willis
He's saying, "Uh" and "Um" the whole time. He's looking at his computer. He's, but then he's got this amazing energy, this enthusiasm that he brings to it. It's like watching, I'm, I don't know why I'm thinking of this. It's like watching, like, Carl Cox DJing. Someone who's so into the moment, who gives off this vibe, this energy that you just want y- you know, you're not even sure what he's saying at first, but you, you know you wanna hear it. [chuckles]
- SSSimon Sinek
So what did you learn from Hans that made you better? What did you, what h- what did you add to your, the way you work, the way you speak?
- RWRob Willis
The, first of all, the energy. If you're enthusiastic, we can be enthusiastic. If you're bored, we're probably gonna be a bit bored.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- RWRob Willis
The way he uses vocal variety. If you look at his speeches, again, he, he didn't sit down and plan this, but he'll lay out the problem or the thesis in very slow Uh, and then he'll go through the data relatively quickly.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- RWRob Willis
Like, "Look what's happening here. This is happening here."
- SSSimon Sinek
The boring stuff quick.
- RWRob Willis
Yeah, the boring stuff quick 'cause it's like, it's like small print-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- RWRob Willis
... at the end of the day. And then he'll pause again, and he'll make the next point that he wants to make-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- RWRob Willis
... and do it slowly. The way he takes data, 'cause we all have to work with-
- SSSimon Sinek
Sure
- RWRob Willis
... data.
- SSSimon Sinek
There's nothing wrong with data.
- RWRob Willis
Nothing wrong with data. But as he says in one of his TED Talks, uh, "Numbers are boring. People are interesting."
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- RWRob Willis
So behind every single number, there's gonna be a human story, and he's so good at finding that human story. And then just the... He's got amazing guts to stand up on stage to an event with probably serious people in the room, and he talks about population growth using toilet paper. [laughs] That's it. How mu- how, like, the, the, the way to give him the confidence to do that-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- RWRob Willis
... is extraordinary. I don't, I don't think I would have the confidence to do that myself, but, but it kind of inspired me to, to try new things and to try and find the person who, who I am. And I think if you look at my speaking style, you can see it kind of comes from-
- 31:47 – 34:30
Speaking With Conviction, Not Questions
- RWRob Willis
Who could I think was good? I mean, we, we've talked about Seth Godin, but for him it's more I prefer him in conversations than on stage. I don't know how he does it, but he's got this way of making everything he says in an interview sound like a, a book. Kind of cryst- he crystallizes ideas in a way that you're like, "Wow, that is like that. You're right." [laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
I mean, this is who he is. He has very strong opinions loosely held.
- RWRob Willis
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
You know, he's very open-minded, um, but he is very opinionated, and he's... I think one of the things that gives him, uh, uh, uh, authority in when he speaks is he speaks very convinced by the thing-
- RWRob Willis
Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... that he's saying, which I like.
- RWRob Willis
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
You know? Um, and I'm, I've seen this where people come in and, you know, it, it's a strange thing where their voices go up at the end of all their sentences.
- RWRob Willis
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And it, sometimes it's nerves. Uh, for some weird reason I think women do it more than men. Um, but, um, you know, uh, "Ladies and gentlemen, uh, I'd like to welcome you. Um, I have some really important things to talk about, and I hope you'll listen to me." And when you raise your voice at the end, that's a question. That's a s- that's what you do rhetorically as a question, which means are you asking us, are you telling us? And all it communicates is self-doubt.
- RWRob Willis
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Now, whether there is self-doubt is irrelevant. The, the, the language, the tone of voice communicates to the audience, "I'm not 100% sure about my ideas, so you should be, too." You know?
- RWRob Willis
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
And, and Seth does the opposite. [laughs]
- RWRob Willis
And that's why I'm, I, I'm begging some of my participants in workshops to, to have a point of view, have an opinion here. People are paying you for that, for your perspective. And Seth, now you say it, it makes perfect sense to me why he's so powerful. Um, he is so convinced of his ideas.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yes.
- RWRob Willis
And the other-
- SSSimon Sinek
Which is very-
- RWRob Willis
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... which is very attractive.
- RWRob Willis
Yeah. It, it, it, I mean, it's, it's one of the parts of charisma, I guess. It's one element of it.
- SSSimon Sinek
I, I mean, the way I define charisma is, is believing in the thing that you're talking about, you know?
- RWRob Willis
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
It's not about jumping off the walls and energy. Uh, you know, there's some very quiet speakers who have unbelievable charisma.
- RWRob Willis
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Um, and the charisma is you can tell they really believe in the things they're telling you.
- RWRob Willis
Yeah. I heard a great definition of charisma. It's charisma is empathy and authority, someone who cares about you and someone who can look after you. Because you wouldn't want-
- SSSimon Sinek
I need to think about that one.
- RWRob Willis
Yeah. 'Cause you wouldn't want, you know, someone who's just very, very capable but doesn't care about you. Equally someone who cares about you but ha- can't do anything.
- SSSimon Sinek
That's true. Explain to me why this happens,
- 34:30 – 36:42
The Speaking Voice Trap: Why You Sound Weird on Stage
- SSSimon Sinek
that people who, um, are giving talks, even if they're not nervous to be on the stage, any of those things that you can factor out, there's this weird thing that people do. They have speaking voice.
- RWRob Willis
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right? Like, they, like, when you talk to them backstage, they're having a normal conversation like you and I are. This is their tone of voice, and the minute they go on stage, whether they're reading or whether it's memorized or whether it's spontaneous, they have this weird tone of voice like, "Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for being here. I'm so glad you all came." Where the hell does that come from?
- RWRob Willis
It probably, and I have no research on this, but I think when you're not used to speaking to a large audience and you speak to a large audience for the first time, it feels unbelievably unnatural, and you need to speak differently. You need to speak in a conversational way, but differently to a room full of 10,000 people to a room of eight people.
- SSSimon Sinek
Is that true? I mean, go, look at, look at our, everybody's favorite, which is Ken Robinson.
- RWRob Willis
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
And when he speaks, it's, it's so conversational.
- RWRob Willis
It is. But is it the conversation that you would have with Ken Robinson? I've never met Ken Robinson and never will, sadly. I just noticed this with the guiding. When I'd come off a day, um, doing tours, and I'd, I've been talking to people for eight hours, and I'd been like, you know, standing doing my bit, and I'd come back, and I would still be kind of talking like that to my wife, and she'd be like, "Whoa, just chill. Like, [laughs] you're a bit loud right now." And I'd, [laughs] like-
- SSSimon Sinek
Oh, I get it. Okay, so the adrenaline is still there.
- RWRob Willis
Yeah. And I think it might-
- SSSimon Sinek
I get that
- RWRob Willis
... the adrenaline probably plays a part in it, but then also it may be someone has told them, "You've gotta stand up and do this." That's why I'm very against teaching gestures, teaching anything which will end, end up looking, um-
- SSSimon Sinek
Weird and staged
- RWRob Willis
... uh, w- exactly, 'cause of the, what's it called? The uncanny valley.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- RWRob Willis
Uh, where they... I think it was originally, uh, made to describe robots. They, they kind of become too human to s- look like a robot, but not quite human enough.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- RWRob Willis
And I think the same thing happens with gestures and vocal variety. When you try and rehearse it, it just comes out rather strange unless you are a top actor.
- 36:42 – 44:14
Five Things You Can Do Tomorrow to Become a Better Speaker
- SSSimon Sinek
What are five simple things that people can do right now with very little practice that will make them better speakers, better presenters?
- RWRob Willis
Okay. First of all, have an objective for every presentation, every interaction that you're gonna have. And what that does, thinking strategically, it makes you think, "Okay, what is actually possible right now?"
- SSSimon Sinek
For example, for example.
- RWRob Willis
I'm gonna go into a meeting and I want to have investment for my particular project, and I'm gonna be speaking for five to 10 minutes. Is it likely that they're gonna give me 50 million euros on the spot? Probably not, but maybe we could agree to workshop an idea next week. Maybe we could agree to, um, trial in a particular market.
- SSSimon Sinek
Love this.
- RWRob Willis
So it's having an objective.
- SSSimon Sinek
A re- realistic objective.
- RWRob Willis
A realistic objective.
- SSSimon Sinek
That's important. The word realistic has to be added there.
- RWRob Willis
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
So what a, what's a realistic obj- objective that takes you one step towards the ultimate objective that you want?
- RWRob Willis
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Love that.
- RWRob Willis
Um, because people miss that, and that's why they go in, give it their usually maybe a good presentation.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- RWRob Willis
And then the decision-maker says, "Oh, cool. Interesting. Next." And then nothing happens.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- RWRob Willis
Or they ask too much and people say, "Ah, let me-
- SSSimon Sinek
It's gonna be hard
- RWRob Willis
... let me align with my stakeholders." [chuckles]
- SSSimon Sinek
Uh, so funny, funny thing. It's reminding me of when I was a young entrepreneur, you know, where I just needed business. I'm not making any money. Like, and I was a little too hungry, and I would go to meetings, and I would come in and pitch and, like, at the end of the business, at the end of the meeting, even if it was a good meeting and they liked me, I'd be like, "So," you know-
- RWRob Willis
Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... thinking I could close the deal 'cause that was my goal-
- RWRob Willis
Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... was to win a piece of business, and I, I wasn't. And they, even if they liked me and, and like... And so and I realized because I kind of blew my chance, they wouldn't even take a second meeting.
- RWRob Willis
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And so what I did was I changed all of my goals for first-time meetings, that my goal of every meeting is simply to create the conditions that I can get a second meeting.
- RWRob Willis
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
That was it. Every first meeting was to create the conditions that I could get a second meeting.
- RWRob Willis
Yeah.
- 44:14 – 46:55
The Five-Minute Rule: Why Less is Always More
- RWRob Willis
it is a big mistake to go in and speak for 30 minutes because people want to be included in the decision. They want to be able to have... That's how a decision gets made, you know? It's not like I go in and I deliver this mic drop moment and everyone cheers and the world changes. That's Hollywood. That doesn't happen. I mean, I say that sitting in Los Angeles. [chuckles] Um, instead, work out how much time you have. Let's say it's a half-hour meeting. G- gonna be five minutes late. You need five minutes at the end to check what's gonna happen next. You've got 20 minutes. You speak for five minutes. You give the high-level story, and then it is up to your decision-maker to draw the details out of you. And y- it's a part of your responsibility to keep that discussion going as well, to point things towards your objective for that particular meeting.
- SSSimon Sinek
Now, you, you just scared a lot of people. Like, I've got half an hour and you're telling me to talk for five minutes.
- RWRob Willis
Yeah. But if you can't get your idea across in five minutes, then I would suggest that you don't understand it well enough yet. And remember, you've already tested it out on a colleague in three minutes, so all you have to do now is have the data. Now, that doesn't mean you couldn't speak about it for half an hour, and it doesn't mean that you've not got a big deck-
- SSSimon Sinek
Right
- RWRob Willis
... full of stuff and an appendix with loads and loads of stuff. But your average executive, they, they want to have, like, a joystick which they can-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- RWRob Willis
... move around. They want to zoom in on a particular thing depending upon what's important to them in that particular moment.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- RWRob Willis
And if you've locked them into some structure which might not work, then-
- SSSimon Sinek
You're done
- RWRob Willis
... you're done. [chuckles] And I think also, I, I was talking to a wonderful, um, researcher called Paul Zak, uh, who talks a lot about storytelling. He said that they've studied attention, and we basically can't maintain attention beyond 18 minutes.
- SSSimon Sinek
Which is why TED Talks are 18 minutes.
- RWRob Willis
Which is why TED Talks are 18 minutes.
- SSSimon Sinek
That's why they designed them that way.
- RWRob Willis
And if, if you think that, you know, you can go through your data set and dazzle people for an hour and a half just going through that with no interaction, no pauses, no, uh, discussion, you're delusional. No one's, no one can do that.
- SSSimon Sinek
Rob, you're a joy. Uh, I hope you make hundreds of more videos. People love your videos. You, more, more important, they are super valuable, and you're making people more confident, you're making them more present, and you're making them better at sharing their good ideas with the people who could listen. Thanks so much for coming on. It's been such a joy. Thanks for flying all the way out here.
- RWRob Willis
Thank you for having me. [gentle music]
- SSSimon Sinek
As always, thank you for watching. If you liked this episode, please subscribe to A Bit of Optimism for more interesting guests and even more interesting conversations. New episodes drop every Tuesday. But if you'd like more optimism right now, click here to watch another episode. Until next time, take care of yourself, take care of each other.
Episode duration: 46:55
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