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You Are More Like Grammy-Winner Jacob Collier Than You Think | A Bit of Optimism Podcast

To create something truly original, do we build something new or break what came before? Perhaps the answer is both—simultaneously. Jacob Collier does exactly that. A brilliant songwriter and musician, he’s known for transforming his live audiences into massive three-part choirs, making music with the very people who attend his concerts. His album "Djesse Volume 4" was nominated for Album of the Year at the 2025 Grammy Awards, alongside icons like Beyoncé, Billie Eilish, and Taylor Swift. Although Beyoncé's "Cowboy Carter" won, Jacob snagged his seventh Grammy for his rendition of "Bridge Over Troubled Water." I sat down with him in a music studio a few days before the Grammys, surrounded by multiple pianos, and it was a joy to hear him play. Jacob’s approach to music—blending structure with spontaneity—offers inspiring insights into creativity that are as inspiring as his sound. This…is A Bit of Optimism. For more on Jacob, check out: http://jacobcollier.com/ @jacobcollier ⏰ Timestamps 0:00 An intro to Jacob Collier 2:19 Album of the Year, and how it feels to be nominated 3:26 Jacob's creative mind as a kid 6:59 Practice versus play 9:39 Simon loves lists 10:19 Simon reads Shel Silverstein's "Twistable Turnable Man" 13:25 The job versus the joy of music 15:31 How Jacob learned to make music with his audiences 20:39 Everyone instinctively understands music 21:30 Jacob plays the piano (arrival and departure) 24:30 What anger sounds like on the piano 28:16 Jacob asks Simon how he keeps old ideas fresh 31:00 Are there any ideas Simon would disavow? 32:15 Jacob's WHY 34:06 The irrational mind and creativity 38:36- What AI taught Jacob about creativity 40:03 Creative mastery versus creative stagnation 44:40 Jacob talks about making two albums (In My Room and Djesse Vol. 4) 49:49 To be a container for creativity 51:58 Catching ideas is like surfing 54:13 Jacob plays Simon a Bartok Bagatelle + + + Simon is an unshakable optimist. He believes in a bright future and our ability to build it together. Described as “a visionary thinker with a rare intellect,” Simon has devoted his professional life to help advance a vision of the world that does not yet exist; a world in which the vast majority of people wake up every single morning inspired, feel safe wherever they are and end the day fulfilled by the work that they do. Simon is the author of multiple best-selling books including Start With Why, Leaders Eat Last, Together is Better, and The Infinite Game. + + + Website: http://simonsinek.com/ Live Online Classes: https://simonsinek.com/classes/ Podcast: http://apple.co/simonsinek Instagram: https://instagram.com/simonsinek/ Linkedin: https://linkedin.com/in/simonsinek/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/simonsinek Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/simonsinek Simon’s books: The Infinite Game: https://simonsinek.com/books/the-infinite-game/ Start With Why: https://simonsinek.com/books/start-with-why/ Find Your Why: https://simonsinek.com/books/find-your-why/ Leaders Eat Last: https://simonsinek.com/books/leaders-eat-last/ Together is Better: https://simonsinek.com/books/together-is-better/ + + + #SimonSinek

Jacob CollierguestSimon Sinekhost
Feb 3, 202558mWatch on YouTube ↗

At a glance

WHAT IT’S REALLY ABOUT

Jacob Collier and Simon Sinek unpack creativity, music, and containers

  1. Jacob Collier describes music as a universal language built from intuitive human axes like high/low, loud/quiet, and tension/resolution that nearly everyone implicitly understands.
  2. The discussion reframes artistry as a cycle between chaos and order, where creators alternately “find order in chaos” and “find chaos in order” to avoid stagnation.
  3. Collier explains how his audience-choir technique works by giving people a simple container (like a key center) that lets collective intuition produce surprisingly accurate harmony without rehearsal.
  4. Both reflect on sustaining joy when a passion becomes a job, emphasizing play, emotional attunement, and changing the creative container rather than repeating old successes.
  5. They compare “catching ideas” to surfing—unpredictable inspiration paired with practiced skill in capturing and riding the wave into a finished output.

IDEAS WORTH REMEMBERING

5 ideas

Most people are more musical than they believe.

Collier argues that simply having listened to music builds an intuitive sense of intervals, key centers, and movement; his audience-choir proves people can follow pitch direction and harmony without technical training.

A simple container can unlock complex creativity.

Giving constraints like a key (e.g., “we’re in F”) creates safety and shared orientation; within that boundary, improvisation and collective coordination become possible.

Music works by crafting satisfying tension and resolution.

Collier’s “arrival and departure” framing explains why “home” feels like home; even gnarly chords can become meaningful when voice-leading resolves them into rest.

Creativity is a two-way cycle between chaos and order.

Sinek defines creativity as finding order in chaos, while Collier adds the complementary move—scuffing up rigid systems to reintroduce chaos—then rebuilding into a new order.

Technical mastery can threaten novelty unless you keep breaking patterns.

They critique the “10,000 hours” narrative when it leads to ossification; staying fresh often requires disrupting routines, switching formats, or redesigning constraints rather than refining the same output.

WORDS WORTH SAVING

5 quotes

The joy of music is how to make the best, most satisfying kind of tension, and then resolve it.

— Jacob Collier

I define creativity as finding order in chaos.

— Simon Sinek

An important part of making art… is finding chaos in the order.

— Jacob Collier

The friction between understanding exactly what a thing is and not understanding exactly what a thing is—that’s where the most creativity happens.

— Jacob Collier

Everybody has the moments of inspiration. What everybody’s not doing is capturing them.

— Simon Sinek

Arrival and departure (tension and resolution)Practice versus playAudience as instrument (audience choir)Music as emotional modulation and therapyCreativity as chaos–order dualityMastery, ossification, and stagnationContainers for creativity and idea capture (surfing metaphor, notebooks)

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