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Simon SinekSimon Sinek

You Are More Like Grammy-Winner Jacob Collier Than You Think | A Bit of Optimism Podcast

To create something truly original, do we build something new or break what came before? Perhaps the answer is both—simultaneously. Jacob Collier does exactly that. A brilliant songwriter and musician, he’s known for transforming his live audiences into massive three-part choirs, making music with the very people who attend his concerts. His album "Djesse Volume 4" was nominated for Album of the Year at the 2025 Grammy Awards, alongside icons like Beyoncé, Billie Eilish, and Taylor Swift. Although Beyoncé's "Cowboy Carter" won, Jacob snagged his seventh Grammy for his rendition of "Bridge Over Troubled Water." I sat down with him in a music studio a few days before the Grammys, surrounded by multiple pianos, and it was a joy to hear him play. Jacob’s approach to music—blending structure with spontaneity—offers inspiring insights into creativity that are as inspiring as his sound. This…is A Bit of Optimism. For more on Jacob, check out: http://jacobcollier.com/ @jacobcollier ⏰ Timestamps 0:00 An intro to Jacob Collier 2:19 Album of the Year, and how it feels to be nominated 3:26 Jacob's creative mind as a kid 6:59 Practice versus play 9:39 Simon loves lists 10:19 Simon reads Shel Silverstein's "Twistable Turnable Man" 13:25 The job versus the joy of music 15:31 How Jacob learned to make music with his audiences 20:39 Everyone instinctively understands music 21:30 Jacob plays the piano (arrival and departure) 24:30 What anger sounds like on the piano 28:16 Jacob asks Simon how he keeps old ideas fresh 31:00 Are there any ideas Simon would disavow? 32:15 Jacob's WHY 34:06 The irrational mind and creativity 38:36- What AI taught Jacob about creativity 40:03 Creative mastery versus creative stagnation 44:40 Jacob talks about making two albums (In My Room and Djesse Vol. 4) 49:49 To be a container for creativity 51:58 Catching ideas is like surfing 54:13 Jacob plays Simon a Bartok Bagatelle + + + Simon is an unshakable optimist. He believes in a bright future and our ability to build it together. Described as “a visionary thinker with a rare intellect,” Simon has devoted his professional life to help advance a vision of the world that does not yet exist; a world in which the vast majority of people wake up every single morning inspired, feel safe wherever they are and end the day fulfilled by the work that they do. Simon is the author of multiple best-selling books including Start With Why, Leaders Eat Last, Together is Better, and The Infinite Game. + + + Website: http://simonsinek.com/ Live Online Classes: https://simonsinek.com/classes/ Podcast: http://apple.co/simonsinek Instagram: https://instagram.com/simonsinek/ Linkedin: https://linkedin.com/in/simonsinek/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/simonsinek Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/simonsinek Simon’s books: The Infinite Game: https://simonsinek.com/books/the-infinite-game/ Start With Why: https://simonsinek.com/books/start-with-why/ Find Your Why: https://simonsinek.com/books/find-your-why/ Leaders Eat Last: https://simonsinek.com/books/leaders-eat-last/ Together is Better: https://simonsinek.com/books/together-is-better/ + + + #SimonSinek

Jacob CollierguestSimon Sinekhost
Feb 4, 202558mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 2:19

    An intro to Jacob Collier

    1. JC

      B flat. It's like this-

    2. SS

      What do you mean by arrival and departure?

    3. JC

      So th- th- this is my home. If I'm in F, this is my home. [piano playing]

    4. SS

      Right.

    5. JC

      I can exist in the key of F for a while, and even if I go somewhere else, like to E to A flat, [piano playing] when I, when I get home-

    6. SS

      I know where you're going

    7. JC

      ... you still feel like, ah, I, I remember this feeling from before. So the idea of arrival, you could say, comes from being not F, something that's not F, like C, [piano playing] arriving at F, right? And I'm home. And then you can kind of augment that arrival into something much more [piano playing] colorful. And the, the joy of music is how to make the best, most satisfying kind of tension, and then resolve it. [piano playing] You know?

    8. SS

      Creativity is about breaking something. Nope, it's about building something. No, it's breaking. No, it's building. Or maybe, just maybe, it's both at the exact same time. But how can you build and break something simultaneously, Simon? Well, enter Jacob Collier. [upbeat music]

    9. JC

      Oh, wow. Thank you so very much.

    10. SS

      Jacob is a Grammy-winning musician who has an uncanny ability to turn anything around him into musical instruments, including his audiences. If you've seen any of the viral videos online, he literally turns his massive audiences into his own personal choirs. [singing] I invited Jacob to join me in a music studio in Los Angeles while he was in town for the Grammys, where his album Djesse Volume Four was nominated for Album of the Year, alongside Billie Eilish, Beyoncé, and Taylor Swift. Get comfy, because this is a front-row seat to his wildly beautiful genius. This is A Bit of Optimism. [upbeat music]

  2. 2:19 – 3:26

    Album of the Year, and how it feels to be nominated

    1. SS

      So you're nominated for Album of the Year for your Grammy. Congratulations.

    2. JC

      Thank you.

    3. SS

      Um, you are nominated alongside some musical legends.

    4. JC

      Trojans.

    5. SS

      Trojans. Feelings? [laughs]

    6. JC

      [laughs] I, I, I heard the other day that I'm, I'm the first artist actually in history to be twice nominated for Album of the Year without ever having charted. So none of my albums have ever been on any chart. I'm personally deeply proud of this.

    7. SS

      I was gonna say-

    8. JC

      Um-

    9. SS

      ... I love that

    10. JC

      ... it's kind of a cool stat. I mean, there's no such thing as Album of the Year. It's just made up. Someone made that up. I'm deeply honored to be, uh, included in the number alongside such luminaries. I'm not taking it too s- too serious.

    11. SS

      I mean, you've already won.

    12. JC

      Um, I mean- [laughs]

    13. SS

      I mean, to be, to be included amongst-

    14. JC

      Yeah. Oh, absolutely

    15. SS

      ... I mean-

    16. JC

      You know, none of us really know, uh, h- what we're doing. We're just playing around. I don't sit around thinking, you know, "God, I'm, I'm bloody brilliant", and, you know, blah, blah, so much. It's just, what an interesting time to be Jacob, you know? And, and what an interesting time to be making music, because I, I've made a very unconventional album that is deeply irreverent in many ways.

    17. SS

      Mm.

    18. JC

      And for it to be counted as, you know, one of those is, it's just kind of a thrill. So I'm, I'm, I'm just taking each day as it comes.

    19. SS

      Love. How old were you when you, when

  3. 3:26 – 6:59

    Jacob's creative mind as a kid

    1. SS

      your sort of folks started to realize that there was something there that wasn't, let's call it, normal? [laughs]

    2. JC

      I think I had an interesting mind as a child. I think when I was small, my mind was interested in things in a certain kind of a way.

    3. SS

      D- do you have brothers and sisters?

    4. JC

      Two little sisters.

    5. SS

      Like, did you have family dinner every night?

    6. JC

      Yes, by candlelight. Still to this day.

    7. SS

      By candlelight?

    8. JC

      Oh, yeah.

    9. SS

      What was the motivation for that? It's just nice?

    10. JC

      I don't think there was an agenda. It's just nice. Yeah.

    11. SS

      I mean, your parents paid the electricity bill.

    12. JC

      That's normally... Oh, yeah, yeah. [laughs]

    13. SS

      [laughs]

    14. JC

      That is, that's something of a motivation.

    15. SS

      And are, is your whole family artistic?

    16. JC

      I would say so. I mean, so I was, I was, um, fundamentally brought up by a single mother, so, and, and I'm eldest of three.

    17. SS

      Okay.

    18. JC

      So we were, we were like a quartet growing up.

    19. SS

      Uh-huh.

    20. JC

      And there was a deep sense of, I suppose, like introversion, you could say. Uh, we all sourced our energy from within-

    21. SS

      Uh-huh

    22. JC

      ... each other. And the thing that was interesting to me when I was growing up was how much I was encouraged to look within myself for answers or inspirations that, that might arise. So for example, um, say I come to the dinner table by candlelight one evening, and I'm feeling kind of angry, but I don't quite know why. But not, I'm not feeling angry in, in a, in a sort of a scaled-up way. I'm feeling angry in a small way, like a knotted way.

    23. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    24. JC

      Like a way that tugs on itself.

    25. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    26. JC

      Um, and also incidentally, I'm like, like my tu- my, my tummy hurts.

    27. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    28. JC

      You know? So say, say I feel like this. I come to the table and I say, "Guys, I'm feeling like this." And, and the first thing I'm met with is, "Oh, so that's, that's interesting." You know?

    29. SS

      Mm.

    30. JC

      "So, like, how did this come about? Why did this come about? And, and how is it that we can untangle this together? 'Cause we're all here together."

  4. 6:59 – 9:39

    Practice versus play

    1. JC

      At least this is how I was brought up to think of it.

    2. SS

      Were you classically trained?

    3. JC

      I wasn't, no.

    4. SS

      So th- this is, this is talent.

    5. JC

      Well [laughs] , I think it was-

    6. SS

      And practice

    7. JC

      ... it was, in a sense, I mean, there, there's, there's a distinction between practice and play. Practice being, you know, when you organize a, a state of play to solve a particular problem.

    8. SS

      Yeah.

    9. JC

      Like, I just wanna learn to go diggity diggity diggity diggity do really well and really fast. That's a particular thing I can practice, I can work on that.

    10. SS

      Right.

    11. JC

      But I think when I was, when I was small, I, I was somewhat resistant to, like, liturgical practice.

    12. SS

      Yeah.

    13. JC

      You know, I'm gonna sit down and do this for this much time. My brain's never really behaved in that way particularly well. So I think, I think my approach to learning and practice was to kind of follow the thing that felt interesting and felt like it lit me up.

    14. SS

      Yeah.

    15. JC

      Which, yeah, I think when I was, yeah, when I was small, was quite varied. I, I was brought up with so much different kinds of just music.

    16. SS

      Did you paint? Did you draw? Or was, was music always the thing?

    17. JC

      I think when I was small, it was language lit me up a lot.

    18. SS

      What do you mean?

    19. JC

      In, in the sense that the way my mind perceived a c- a particular chord-

    20. SS

      Mm

    21. JC

      ... was, was similar in a sense to the way it, it, it perceived a particular, like, relationship between words. I, I remember being obsessed with just the idea of, like, what are many contexts within which you can put a human finger?

    22. SS

      Right.

    23. JC

      Like, you know, you say linen on finger, or doorbell on finger, or-

    24. SS

      Right

    25. JC

      ... hummus or, you know, whatever.

    26. SS

      [laughs]

    27. JC

      You imagine, you imagine the collisions. And I think-

    28. SS

      Isn't, isn't that the name of your new album, Hummus on Finger?

    29. JC

      Hummus on Finger, yeah.

    30. SS

      Yeah.

  5. 9:39 – 10:19

    Simon loves lists

    1. SS

      a list.

    2. JC

      Mm. The sound of a list?

    3. SS

      If someone could pull up on their phone for me the... It's the Shel Silverstein, uh, bendable, stretchable man, and I'll show you what I mean. And there's a Shakespeare sonnet. You know, like, w- Shakespeare did this a lot in his sonnets, where in the m- in the middle of his sonnet, he would, there would be a list of, like, "and this and this, and this and this, and this and this and this".

    4. JC

      Yeah.

    5. SS

      And I love-

    6. JC

      [laughs]

    7. SS

      I love reading a list.

    8. JC

      Reading-

    9. SS

      I don't know what it is.

    10. JC

      Yeah.

    11. SS

      And as you're talking about how you find the beauty in language-

    12. JC

      Mm

    13. SS

      ... I don't know what it is about my brain that I enjoy the sound of a poetic list. Do you have it? I'll show you what I mean.

    14. JC

      Oh, cool.

    15. SS

      Right.

    16. JC

      Okay, yeah, great.

    17. SS

      I haven't read this in a while, so, so bear with

  6. 10:19 – 13:25

    Simon reads Shel Silverstein's "Twistable Turnable Man"

    1. SS

      me. And it gets... Where it gets brilliant is the end. Okay, so it's called Twistable Turnable Man by Shel Silverstein, right? "He's the twistable, turnable, squeezable, pullable, stretchable, foldable man. He can crawl in your pocket or fit in your locket or screw himself into a 20-volt socket or stretch himself up to the steeple or, or taller or squeeze him- himself into a thimble or smaller. Yes, he can. Of course he can. He's the twistable, turnable, squeezable, pullable, stretchable, shrinkable man. And he lives a passable life with his squeezable, lovable, kissable, huggable, pullable, tugable wife. And they have two twistable kids who bend up the way that they did, and they turn and they stretch just as much as they can, for this bendable, foldable, do what you're toldable, easily moldable, buy what you're soldable, washable, mendable, highly dependable, buyable, sellable, always available, bounceable, shakeable, always unbreakable, twistable, turnable man."

    2. JC

      Oh. [clapping] Fantastic.

    3. SS

      And he-

    4. JC

      That's very, very good

    5. SS

      ... and... I love the list.

    6. JC

      Tumbles off the tongue.

    7. SS

      I love the list. And, and the, the bits in between are just me getting to the list.

    8. JC

      Yes, of course.

    9. SS

      You know?

    10. JC

      Of course. Yeah.

    11. SS

      And so as you're talking about this, this idea of hyperfocus, the reason I wanna talk about it is because I, I, I want people to be able to see that they are more like you than they think they are.

    12. JC

      Yeah, right. I, I feel very similarly to this, actually. That is a beautiful poem, and the, the thing about that list is it's, it's like you have a series of miniature chemical reactions, pow, pow, pow, pow, that go off in your brain. Uh, uh, but the thing is, the thing about it is that everybody who's ever perceived language, or y- you could say music as well, has experienced a version of this.

    13. SS

      Mm.

    14. JC

      And the thing I always try to emphasize to people is how similar making music is to listening to it. It's the same exact thing except the other way around. So when you listen to something, you know, you might be in a particular mood. You might say, "Oh, God, I..." And I, and I'm trying to reverse engineer the, the emotional-... remedy to my mood. And I know that the right song will hit the spot right on. It might be like a Bon Iver day, where only Bon Iver can hit the spot, or Sufjan Stevens day, or Earth and a Fire day, whatever happens to be.

    15. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    16. JC

      But your job as a listener, in a sense, is to i- i- fi- kind of to, to find the, the right component that matches your energy that will sort of pull it out in a, in that gorgeous way that only music can do.

    17. SS

      That you wanna emphasize or get away from.

    18. JC

      Yeah.

    19. SS

      I either wanna be sad, so I'm gonna play myself sad music-

    20. JC

      Yeah

    21. SS

      ... or I wanna get away from sadness, so I'm gonna play happy music.

    22. JC

      Well, usually the, the thing that's right for your space will meet you where you are and then modulate you slightly to somewhere else.

    23. SS

      Yes.

    24. JC

      And, and so, so I guess the, the thing with making music is it's similar, you know? And it come, kind of, kind of comes back to the, the candlelit dinner scenario of how you feeling today, and every- whatever you say is actually fine, uh, but it's just where, it's just like a starting, starting point.

    25. SS

      So you play how you feel, where the rest of us pl- make a playlist for how we feel.

    26. JC

      Exactly. Exa- That's beautifully put. And I think the thing I've, I've learned to do, you know, I'm not great at reading the dots and the notes and all sorts of things like this, but I think that for me, I, I've tried to learn how to be as fluent as possible in music as a language i- in general, so that if I sit down and play how I feel-

    27. SS

      Yeah

    28. JC

      ... something will come out that's of some kind of value based-

    29. SS

      Yeah

    30. JC

      ... in my experiences, first as a listener, and then secondly as a maker. And the whole thing goes round in a circle. And, and the service you provide to an audience, hopefully, is one of, of meeting them where they are and modulating them slightly, you

  7. 13:25 – 15:31

    The job versus the joy of music

    1. JC

      know?

    2. SS

      I'm, 'cause I'm so curious, like, y- you know, do you make time to play, or do you find yourself just playing?

    3. JC

      I think-

    4. SS

      'Cause, 'cause when you started out as a kid, it was something you did for fun. You weren't taking classes.

    5. JC

      Mm.

    6. SS

      You wouldn't, it wasn't like you had homework to do and you had to prepare for the piano teacher. But now it's a career.

    7. JC

      Yeah.

    8. SS

      Now there's expectations. Now you have to play at certain times and certain reasons.

    9. JC

      Yeah.

    10. SS

      You have to prepare for things.

    11. JC

      Mm.

    12. SS

      Has it become a job? Like, where does job and joy intersect or separate?

    13. JC

      That's a beautiful question. Um, I think it's, it feels very much-

    14. SS

      'Cause, 'cause you don't wanna be singing the same songs 40 years from now.

    15. JC

      No. Well, uh, well so the, the funny thing about my performances, the things I prepare for are that they're not designed to be the same each time.

    16. SS

      Yeah.

    17. JC

      So, so the preparation is, is as much of an internal emotional space one as it is a, a fingers one. You know, I f- I kind of spent a concentrated period of time towards the end of my s- teens really getting that language together and sort of understanding, okay, so here's how to create tension. Here's how you release tension. Here's how you ask a question and give an answer. Here's how you twist or turn or whatever you have with the things. And so I think that now when I, when I, when I sit on the stage, I, I'm not thinking so much about the grammar of it, the s- the, the syntax of how do I put this thing in- into words as well. I'm, I'm more thinking what, how do I best articulate the thing that's, that I'm feeling, or the thing that's in the room? How do I best turn that into something that can be accessed or related to?

    18. SS

      Mm. Mm.

    19. JC

      So that work, that practice is less about I play, I practiced for two hours this morning, so I'm, I'm ready.

    20. SS

      Right, right, right.

    21. JC

      It's more like I've, I've tuned in enough to know, or I, I've just kind of... Or, or I can laugh at myself enough to know, you know, what... Uh, th- that kind of... A- as an improviser, those principles end, end up having more of an impact than, than a- any particular skill or, or, or thing that you might have.

    22. SS

      So one of the things that I admire about you and I, I find remarkable is your ability to use the audience.

    23. JC

      Uh-huh.

    24. SS

      And I've been in audiences where musicians have attempted to get us to do the singing.

    25. JC

      Yeah.

    26. SS

      And I'll be totally honest, it sounded terrible.

    27. JC

      [laughs] Right, right.

    28. SS

      Right? And I admire the attempt, but it has always failed. Your work is the opposite,

  8. 15:31 – 20:39

    How Jacob learned to make music with his audiences

    1. SS

      which is I'm amazed with these huge audiences that you are making good-sounding music-

    2. JC

      [laughs]

    3. SS

      ... with people who don't necessarily know how to make good-sounding music.

    4. JC

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    5. SS

      At what point did you realize this actually sounds good?

    6. JC

      Yeah.

    7. SS

      It's not just, it's not just doing something, you know, community-wise.

    8. JC

      It, it is an ongoing process of, like, deep fascination for me. I, I mean, to take you back to when I was, like, two, some of my earliest memories as a kid, uh, those sort of wooly half memories that you have at that age, were of watching my mother conduct-

    9. SS

      Great

    10. JC

      ... 'cause she, she's a conductor. So she would raise her arms or move her body, and it was like casting a spell, you know? Suddenly the room would be transformed into this thing that had many arms and legs and was just running around and making these paintings, and it was just cra- it was like, yeah, it was literally like magic.

    11. SS

      Right.

    12. JC

      I was obsessed with it.

    13. SS

      Right.

    14. JC

      How can you do that? That's insane.

    15. SS

      You go like this and something happens.

    16. JC

      Yeah. But, and the thing about it is people would leave the room not just having played the right notes, but they would leave the room just feeling better about themselves and life.

    17. SS

      Mm.

    18. JC

      They would've been, like, lit up or lifted up. And I, and I, I didn't really question it. I just thought, "This is what music can do. This, isn't it cool?" And she would have students come over to the house, and they would come in downtrodden, and they would leave the house, and they would be uplifted, you know?

    19. SS

      But this, this is, this is worth double-clicking on, right?

    20. JC

      Uh, double-clicking.

    21. SS

      Which is you, you're two years old-

    22. JC

      Yeah

    23. SS

      ... and your introduction to understanding music was not somebody sitting at a piano. It was your mother... You said it was like a magician.

    24. JC

      Exactly.

    25. SS

      Like, your mother raises her hands, and music comes out of her hands.

    26. JC

      Yeah. Well, she was playing music through other people.

    27. SS

      That's, yes.

    28. JC

      And that, that was the thing.

    29. SS

      She, she was, she-

    30. JC

      Yeah

  9. 20:39 – 21:30

    Everyone instinctively understands music

    1. JC

      Music really is, it, you can distill it to very, very simple axes. For example, the axes of high and low, right? Everyone understands this. Everyone gets it. Everyone, children, grown-ups, everyone. It's like here's a high note, and here's a low note. Okay, got it. 'Cause it's speech.

    2. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    3. JC

      We all speak.

    4. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    5. JC

      We understand the contour of speech. And then there's loud and quiet. Everyone gets it. I know, I, I, I intuitively understand what you mean, loud and quiet. It makes sense. And then there's, there's, like, many and few, right? Everyone understands those, those principles. You, you get it. It's a thick chord, like this [plays chord] . And there's a thin chord [plays chord] , just like that. And, and everyone understands, okay, I, I un- I get it. It's like looking at a landscape-

    6. SS

      Mm-hmm

    7. JC

      ... 'cause it all, it, it reflects the world so well. And then the, the, the deeper you go into, to music as a process of, you know, learning or playing, you kind of, like, increase the resolution of these axes.

    8. SS

      Yeah.

    9. JC

      So, you know, it starts with every kid. I absolutely-

  10. 21:30 – 24:30

    Jacob plays the piano (arrival and departure)

    1. SS

      Yeah, I think I was gonna say-

    2. JC

      I'll, I'll go and-

    3. SS

      ... I think we, why don't we do it?

    4. JC

      Go to the piano. So okay. So you got, you've got high and low, right? [plays notes]

    5. SS

      Yeah.

    6. JC

      It makes sense. Then you've got, you know, wide [plays chords] and narrow [plays chords] . Does that, that, that-

    7. SS

      Yeah

    8. JC

      ... makes a lot of sense. You've got loud [plays chord] and quiet [plays chord] . Um, but then, then for example, there's this idea of, like, arrival and departure. Everyone actually understands. Everyone has departed or, or arrived at a certain point.

    9. SS

      Example?

    10. JC

      So, so if I'm in F, which is the key I was just talking about [plays note] and within the key of F I have, like, l- localities, you could say. So I have, like, next door neighbors. [plays notes] So that's one neighbor, B flat. It's like this-

    11. SS

      What do you mean by arrival and departure?

    12. JC

      So th- th- this is my home. [plays note] If I'm in F, this is my home. [plays notes]

    13. SS

      Right.

    14. JC

      I can exist in the key of F for a while. And even if I go somewhere else, like to E flat [plays notes] , when I, when I get home [plays notes] -

    15. SS

      You know you're home

    16. JC

      ... you still feel like, ah, I, I remember this feeling from before. So the idea of arrival, you could say, comes from being not F, something that's not F, like C [plays note] , arriving at F, right? [plays note] And I'm home. And then you can kind of augment that arrival into something much more [plays notes] colorful. And the, the joy of music is how to make the best, most satisfying kind of tension, and then resolve it. So even the most gnarly sounding, like [plays notes] with a chord like this, it's like that's a weird sound. But [plays notes] if you're careful, then [plays notes] all those notes can move in directions that go, ah, oh, I see. It's like, it's like the temperature of the shower's changed. Oh, I get it. You know what I mean? So this idea of, of essentially movement in and around axes is so interesting. And, and yeah, if you think about, you think about departure and arrival, or you think about inevitability, this is such a, such a beautiful, very subtle thing to describe. [plays notes] One of my favorite things to do with the audience is I'll get them to sing one note. I'll say, "Sing F." [sings] And they all go [sings] like this. And then I put them in all sorts of contexts. [plays notes] That context. [plays notes] That context. [plays notes] Right. [plays notes] There it's weird. [plays notes] Yeah. [plays notes] And you know you're home. But the, the exercise that's so beautiful with that, f- to me emotionally is [plays note] you understand your position in things. The, the beautiful thing about the audience choir that I found in the last few years is that it works kind of regardless of whether you're a musician or not. I mean, the more musicians are in the audience, often the, the, the faster people can learn.

    17. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    18. JC

      But the challenge really is you need about, you need over 50% of the people to know what's going on. The rest will follow. It's like, like murmuration.

    19. SS

      Okay.

    20. JC

      They'll, they'll kind of, they'll kind of follow.

    21. SS

      Okay.

    22. JC

      But, um, I think the main thing about my audience now-... is that they are kind of just, they're- they're open to it

    23. SS

      I'm so curious how you explore different emotions, like real emotions that you have-

    24. JC

      Yeah

    25. SS

      ... better than happy, sad.

  11. 24:30 – 28:16

    What anger sounds like on the piano

    1. JC

      Yeah.

    2. SS

      Like, when you are angry-

    3. JC

      Yeah

    4. SS

      ... whether it's that- that, you know, not that burst anger-

    5. JC

      Yeah

    6. SS

      ... how does it show up when you sit down to let it out?

    7. JC

      Yeah. Yeah. [piano music]

    8. SS

      Is it therapy for you?

    9. JC

      Yeah. So as I'm playing, I'm like, "Oh, I see. Oh, I, oh, oh, okay, oh, I get... Oh, I see, I see." 'Cause you start... I don't know where I started, somewhere down here [piano music] or something. You-

    10. SS

      I think we all have our way of... And I, I'm gonna go back to your mother, you know-

    11. JC

      Yeah

    12. SS

      ... of her, her trying to get you to express yourselves and- and- and affirm your feelings.

    13. JC

      Yeah, yeah.

    14. SS

      And I think if you look at so many of the struggles that people have-

    15. JC

      Yeah

    16. SS

      ... we don't know how to express our feelings-

    17. JC

      No

    18. SS

      ... so it comes out in frustration or anger or burst, or we say things we don't mean.

    19. JC

      Mm.

    20. SS

      And even harder than knowing how to, or as hard as learning how to express our own emotions, is trying to help somebody else express theirs.

    21. JC

      Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    22. SS

      You know? And so-

    23. JC

      Big time

    24. SS

      ... and so I think to find one's own therapy, some people go to the gym to get it out.

    25. JC

      Yeah, yeah.

    26. SS

      Go for a run.

    27. JC

      Yeah

    28. SS

      Whatever it is, you know? Go outside and have a primal, primal yell. Do you use your piano as therapy? You know, lovesick, you know, angry, homesick.

    29. JC

      Sure.

    30. SS

      You know, is it your, is it your therapist?

  12. 28:16 – 31:00

    Jacob asks Simon how he keeps old ideas fresh

    1. JC

      I- I'm, I guess I'm curious, maybe this is more of a question to you, but just as somebody who thinks about ideas and puts them into words-

    2. SS

      Mm-hmm

    3. JC

      ... distills them-

    4. SS

      Mm-hmm

    5. JC

      ... into concrete ideas, whether it's let's do a podcast, or let's- let's- let's put this on the page, or let's have a conversation, or- or let's put together a presentation.

    6. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    7. JC

      There- there's something that happens to me on the journey from raw starting point, energy, life input-

    8. SS

      Mm-hmm

    9. JC

      ... to distilled output, sensible, kind of done, quantifiable, um, where part of the energy required to make the idea kind of dies and falls away. Because in distilling the idea, you have to kind of rid yourself of an amount of the infinity surrounding it, but then you get... You- you whittle it down to this thing. I mean, fr- in, from my perspective in- in- in my line of work, you could say, as a songwriter, that challenge is always interesting. It's- it's almost like you have to, you have to court the idea and keep it alive for long enough for it to continue to sort of burn fuel as you move through the process of raw idea into kind of whittle down idea into particularly whittle down idea into sharing the idea, and then in your case, into maintaining ideas across many, many years. Like, you've- you've said something at this point, and then 15 years later, someone wants you to give a keynote on the same principle, in the same way that someone wants me to play a song I wrote 15, 15 years ago.

    10. SS

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    11. JC

      Like how, what's your relationship with ideas of old-

    12. SS

      Yep

    13. JC

      ... their gestation, and then their kind of continued life a- as you have always a human.

    14. SS

      Yeah.

    15. JC

      You know?

    16. SS

      So it's a good question. For years, when I, you know, I, after I wrote Start With Why, that's all anybody wanted to hear from me, but I wanted to talk about new things.

    17. JC

      Of course.

    18. SS

      And they very much wanted to force me to talk about the old things.

    19. JC

      Yeah.

    20. SS

      And I- I'm proud of my old work. I still live by the principles of my old work, but I have zero interest in talking about my old work.

    21. JC

      Yeah.

    22. SS

      I'll answer a question or two if people want. I've, I'm happy to do that. But to give a talk, I- I- I actually won't do it.

    23. JC

      Yeah.

    24. SS

      And there is a few reasons I won't do it. It's not just... I am a student, and I love to understand things. I don't have to agree or disagree, or even like or dislike. I just like to understand.

    25. JC

      Mm-hmm.

    26. SS

      Right? And once I understand something, or at least I have a good framework that I'm like, "I think I understand this"-

    27. JC

      Got it. Yeah

    28. SS

      ... I wanna move to the next thing I don't understand. And it's why I like engaging with audiences for new ideas, because they ask me questions I haven't heard before.And then I get to think.

    29. JC

      Yeah.

    30. SS

      And that's my favorite thing in the world to do.

  13. 31:00 – 32:15

    Are there any ideas Simon would disavow?

    1. JC

      that you would d- that you d- are there any things you would thoroughly disavow? Are there any, any, any things you would say, "I really don't stand with this anymore," something that you used to, you used to hold dear or dearly?

    2. SS

      There are... The, the, the simple answer is of course.

    3. JC

      Well, yeah.

    4. SS

      You know? But there's nothing that upsets the whole-

    5. JC

      The, the ethos of it all

    6. SS

      ... the whole thing.

    7. JC

      Of, yeah. Of course.

    8. SS

      There are nuances-

    9. JC

      Yeah

    10. SS

      ... and tweaks and language that has evolved that I better understand my work and going through life that necessarily.

    11. JC

      Can, can-

    12. SS

      So the simple answer is yes

    13. JC

      ... can, can, can you give an example?

    14. SS

      Give an example?

    15. JC

      Yeah.

    16. SS

      Uh, sure. So I define the why as a purpose, cause, or belief. And now that I'm, I've, the work has matured and I've built upon it, I... And I stumbled upon The Infinite Game, which was my, my l- last work.

    17. JC

      Hmm.

    18. SS

      I now talk about a just cause, and I was like, "Ugh, I wish I didn't use cause to describe..." It's just a purpose or a belief.

    19. JC

      I, I-

    20. SS

      That's still true

    21. JC

      ... I see what you mean.

    22. SS

      But I wanna reserve cause for this other thing-

    23. JC

      Uh, yeah

    24. SS

      ... mainly to not create confusion-

    25. JC

      Yeah

    26. SS

      ... 'cause they're kinda different. So, so like little nuances like that.

    27. JC

      That, that make- that makes a lot of sense. So here, so here's another question then, or another, another point to make is over the last three months or so,

  14. 32:15 – 34:06

    Jacob's WHY

    1. JC

      for the first time ever, I've, I've had this analysis done of my audience-

    2. SS

      Uh-huh

    3. JC

      ... who my audience is, and it was really interesting. And the questions it threw up were kind of beautiful and profound, and for the first time ever really, though I've always enjoyed to somewhat do this, I've kind of been placed in a position of wanting to, or, or, or being asked to or want to define what is it that I stand for.

    4. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    5. JC

      Like essentially, what is my why?

    6. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    7. JC

      Like, what is, what is my driving cause here?

    8. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    9. JC

      Like why Jacob? Why, why come to a Jacob show?

    10. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    11. JC

      So one interesting thing for, for example, my, about my audience is that, like, I sell far more tickets than my streaming numbers would suggest, right? And it, I think it's because a lot of the things I most enjoy about my work is, are experiences.

    12. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    13. JC

      I love having experiences with people. I love the audience choir. I love conversations at large with people. I love playing, collaborating. Maybe it's with an orchestra, maybe it's with a band, whatever. I just love it. And often I'll, I'll perform things in the shows that aren't, aren't even to do with the music on the record.

    14. SS

      Yeah.

    15. JC

      Um, it, it obviously depends on the show, but the, the questions that arise with regard to, you know, what is it that drives me? What are my foundational pillars? I have this, this dual kind of experience with that, where on the one hand, I have this deep relief-

    16. SS

      Mm-hmm

    17. JC

      ... of knowing, "Oh, so that's what was always going on." You know?

    18. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    19. JC

      Because it's like that beautiful Michelangelo thing about, you know, everything within the sculpture is already there. You just have to remove what's not the sculpture and reveal what's there.

    20. SS

      Right, right, right.

    21. JC

      Which I think is very much the case as an artist. All you're w- all you're working with is what you already have. It's me watching my mom conduct at age two.

    22. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    23. JC

      That's always gonna be there. That's one of my raw materials. But as I've gone on this process of, of, of analyzing it all, I can't help but ha- th- there's a part of me that, that, that enjoys, not just sort of inherently will resist it, but will enjoy resisting it because it knows, as the creative part of me, that there's actually creative juice on the edge of something.

    24. SS

      Enjoy resisting what?

    25. JC

      It, it, it enjoy, ed- I, I would say resisting the idea that I, I, I can be defined as this one thing.

    26. SS

      Yeah.

  15. 34:06 – 38:36

    The irrational mind and creativity

    1. JC

      And I suppose the question I, I, I wanted to pose to you was this idea of the, the irrational, the completely irrational mind, which as a creative person, all of us have a relationship with. And, and there is the part of us that can rationalize, and I can say, "Okay, well I'm in, in the key of F, then I do this."

    2. SS

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    3. JC

      "This is what's arrival, this is departure. I'm making tension," or, "Here's how the audience works," or, "Here's how I think about my next whatever."

    4. SS

      Yeah.

    5. JC

      But still, when I stand on stage or sit on stage and do it, there is a part of me that just does not respond to any amount of data-

    6. SS

      Yeah

    7. JC

      ... or analysis-

    8. SS

      Yeah

    9. JC

      ... that I could ever possibly have done about who I am and where I am. And I, I'm curious how you feel about-

    10. SS

      Yeah

    11. JC

      ... the cultivation of that part of you that is just an animal and doesn't want to kind of be put into a box, but also enjoys y- you could almost say you, you'd almost say be- being disobedient w- with regard to what is-

    12. SS

      Oh

    13. JC

      ... defined as you.

    14. SS

      Okay. You're opening a Pandora's box here.

    15. JC

      I, I, I assume that might be it.

    16. SS

      Which I like. It's, so, okay. So I define creativity as finding order in chaos.

    17. JC

      Finding order in chaos.

    18. SS

      Right? And so, and I would argue that, you know, 88 keys on keyboard is-

    19. JC

      Chaos

    20. SS

      ... unto itself chaos.

    21. JC

      [laughs] Yeah.

    22. SS

      Right? 'Cause you take a, you know, you take somebody, a baby who doesn't, and they bang. It, I mean, it, chaos. And finding order in that chaos is the, is what we call music. I would, creative, the creative expression. And, um, and I think artists inherently have a comfortable relationship with chaos.

    23. JC

      Yeah. I would say so, too.

    24. SS

      And I would argue that chaos is irrational. You know, we seek order, we seek rational, we seek, we seek rules and structures and explanations. That's all that rational stuff. And the irrational, the emotional, the uncomfortable, the un- scripted, the unknown, the uncertain is where the artist plays.

    25. JC

      Mm-hmm.

    26. SS

      And I think great artists understand that what they do is play.

    27. JC

      Yeah.

    28. SS

      Fundamentally, what we're doing is playing. We're playing with pieces of a puzzle. Mine might be words and ideas. Your might be keys on a, on a piano. Somebody else might be colors. And, and we become facile in our own language.

    29. JC

      Yeah.

    30. SS

      And, and the example I'll give is that ha- have you ever hung out with dancers?

  16. 38:36 – 40:03

    What AI taught Jacob about creativity

    1. JC

      an interesting analogy that's, that's to do with creativity but, but, but also different, is AI, right?

    2. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    3. JC

      So AI asks us to ask questions.

    4. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    5. JC

      That's our fundamental way of it- of, of interfacing with it. The more interesting the question is, the more interesting the result you'll get, and it's kind of an interesting process of, of whittling away through deeply uninteresting things, like mortally uninteresting results, to get something that's actually interesting. And I've spent so many hours, you know, for example, just, just generating images. And I, I spoke before about, you know, colliding unusual stuff. I love it. It's a beautiful place.

    6. SS

      I've made so many different kinds of stormtroopers.

    7. JC

      Oh, God, yeah.

    8. SS

      Like dressed as-

    9. JC

      Unlimited

    10. SS

      ... as Vikings and dressed as-

    11. JC

      [laughs]

    12. SS

      [laughs]

    13. JC

      But it's... The, the, the thing I used to do, and you know, my favorite era of... It's so funny. The era, the, the eras of AI are so new. My favorite era of AI was-

    14. SS

      [laughs]

    15. JC

      ... mid 2022. [laughs]

    16. SS

      [laughs]

    17. JC

      Because DALL-E 2 had just come out. But it, it was before it got really good. It was before it got obedi- really obedient or extremely appropriate or reasonable.

    18. SS

      Mm.

    19. JC

      I remember drawing it to... Ask, asking it to draw a picture of children escaping from a garden by a torchlight at night. And because it wasn't quite good enough yet, but it kind of understood the nature of what I was saying, it drew the feeling of children escaping a garden by torchlight, but none of those things were present in the image.

    20. SS

      Wow.

    21. JC

      But you would look at the image and you'd think, "That kind of a day, that's what it feels like to be a child." Yeah, it's sort of like-

    22. SS

      So early-

    23. JC

      That-

    24. SS

      ... AI was actually better-

    25. JC

      Oh, way better

    26. SS

      ... 'cause it captured feelings.

    27. JC

      But, but this is the thing-

    28. SS

      That's interesting

    29. JC

      ... this is the interesting thing about music-

    30. SS

      Less literal

  17. 40:03 – 44:40

    Creative mastery versus creative stagnation

    1. JC

      People think-

    2. SS

      Mm

    3. JC

      ... when you learn music and the more you train, the, the better you're gonna get.

    4. SS

      Mm.

    5. JC

      Not true.

    6. SS

      Mm.

    7. JC

      Because whilst your, your, your, um, technique can be refined, the, the, the friction between understanding exactly what a thing is and not understanding exactly what a thing is, that's where the most creativity happens because the most amount of change happens between order and chaos.

    8. SS

      This is brilliant. So the whole Malcolm Gladwell 10,000 hours-

    9. JC

      Yeah

    10. SS

      ... right? And this is what we're touching on-

    11. JC

      Yeah

    12. SS

      ... which is the more you gain mastery, what ends up happening is ossification.

    13. JC

      Yes, exactly.

    14. SS

      You ossify. You know, you-

    15. JC

      Exactly

    16. SS

      ... I look at people who are, quote-unquote, "experts," have been doing this for 20 years, 30 years, 40 years. They are the, the best, and you realize they're stuck. You realize that they're bored.

    17. JC

      Stagnated.

    18. SS

      You realize that they are either afraid of change, don't understand how to change, or the money or fame is too good and they don't want it to change.

    19. JC

      Yeah. Threatened, yeah.

    20. SS

      Threatened, but they're... But generally, the feeling of, like, boredom is there-

    21. JC

      Yeah

    22. SS

      ... because they've done it so much. Their... The joy was the figuring it out up to 10,000 hours.

    23. JC

      Right, right.

    24. SS

      And so I, I think you're 100% right, which is, which is mastery is, is I think probably creative's, is a, is a, is a, is a devil to-

    25. JC

      Well-

    26. SS

      ... to, to a, to a true creative.

    27. JC

      There are, there are different kinds of mastery, though, I would say. Like, you can master, for example, the technique of something, the execution of something. You, you can also e- e- sort of exhibit mastery by your ability to create containers, and this is the thing I'm currently obsessed with, with mastering because I've always required the right container for my creativity to feel safe within. 'Cause if you pour creativity into the open air, it just goes and fizzles and disappears, or it's too much. Eh. There's too much infinity. So what you need is, is a, is a, is a container-

    28. SS

      Mm

    29. JC

      ... that holds you together. And, and this is a s- I think this is something you can master.

    30. SS

      What's your-

  18. 44:40 – 49:49

    Jacob talks about making two albums (In My Room and Djesse Vol. 4)

    1. SS

      is there something you've done, an album you've worked on, a concert you've performed in, just anything specific that was what you would consider the pinnacle, the ideal? Like when you look back you'd be like, "I wish every concert was like this one. I wish every album was like this like..." Or every experience I've had was like th- Like if, if one was the, stands out in your career-

    2. JC

      Yeah

    3. SS

      ... which one would it be?

    4. JC

      It's so hard to say. I would say... I'll start with album. There are two albums that I think sum up the thing, really the thing. 'Cause we're all chasing the thing.

    5. SS

      Mm-hmm.

    6. JC

      And you get close to it sometimes and think, "Oh, that's the thing. I've, I've almost got it." So the first album I ever made was called In My Room, and I made it in my room in London in this very, in this tiny room filled with instruments, and I made it by myself and it was really exciting. I toured it by myself with a circle of 12 instruments in a circle on stage, and there was this visual element where I would sort of loop my skeleton in 3D using Kinect cameras, and it was this multimedia thing that was really, really fun. And that was like day one in the office. So everything was new, everything was exciting, and the metaphor of the room I stand by today as being a huge one for me. Massive. Everyone's got a room of some kind, right? I was lucky enough to have a physical one. The album I just released this time last year, it's called Djesse Volume 4, is the fourth album in a series of four albums. So this was my reaction to, um, of the, or to, to, to the solitude of In My Room. It was like I'm gonna collaborate drastically. I'm gonna go big. I'm gonna go massive. I'm gonna really, um, e- experience what it's like to work with as ma- as, as, as many people as possible. The first song on Djesse Volume 4 has over 100,000 people on it.

    7. SS

      Wow.

    8. JC

      And that's because not only are there... I mean, there's an orchestra that my mom actually conducted on the album, which is amazing. Um, there's, there are all sorts of choirs, individuals-

    9. SS

      Yeah

    10. JC

      ... artists and things, but I recorded audiences obsessively-

    11. SS

      Yeah, yeah, yeah

    12. JC

      ... from 2022 to 2023. And I, I didn't tell them I was doing this really at the time, but in... I was, I would end up in a key and I'd be, I'd be getting the audience to do some certain thing, singing up and down, whatever, and in my mind I was playing the song I was half, that was half written in all these different parts of the world, every continent of the world. And then I took those audiences home and I, and I, I organized them in, into this, into this kind of like anthem of a song that philosophically to me, it really thrills me because it's made out of people, but it's not... I didn't go in with a direct end. I didn't go, go in knowing exactly what I wanted to get. I went in with a, with a container, with a concept of what would it sound like to have 100,000 people on one song? And then I figured it out, "Oh, it sounds like this." [laughs]

    13. SS

      So of the, of those two experiences, what was the reason you decided to talk about... I mean, you've had many concert yous, have-

    14. JC

      Yeah

    15. SS

      ... you've, you've done incredible collaborations. You've written some brilliant songs. Like there's many things that you have done that are magical in your career. What was it about these two specifically that you wanna talk about them now?

    16. JC

      Well, I think that they both contain the thing.

    17. SS

      Which is?

    18. JC

      Which I think maybe is about the human voice. I think it's about being a voice and having a voice. I think that the first, my first contribution to this album, In My Room, was about me exploring my own voice-

    19. SS

      Yep

    20. JC

      ... and being like, "What the hell is this? What's the furthest I can stretch this?" And, and the result, though obviously I listen back to it now and I'm like, "Oh, that's, that's just little Jacob just figuring it out." You know, it's, it's just, just getting started and stuff. Um, and I would... I, I guess the second point, I'm, I say I'm very grateful for the album, but I, I, I so appreciate the thing that I was capturing, which was this, this idea of like what I, what... If I close my eyes and listen to music in my head, what does that sound like? What is that? What does my inner world feel like? That was what it felt like. And I'm so proud of it, and I still go back to it and think there is something of this that is in everything I ever do that is the truth.

    21. SS

      Mm.

    22. JC

      Because it's... I mean, I, I learned to walk in that room at home. It was my ultimate foundation. And then the, this album I did last year was kind of like the same principle but in, in the opposite, which is the voices of everybody else.

    23. SS

      Mm.

    24. JC

      But it kind of felt as faithful to the thing which is very mysterious, and I, I'm curious how you define the, the thing for you. But I think to me there's something about really being a self and through the voice, and then accessing that through other people. That, that, that feels like the thing I'm chasing in some way.

    25. SS

      Te- tell, tell me an early specific happy childhood memory.

    26. JC

      An early specific childhood memory.

    27. SS

      Specific that I can relive with you

    28. JC

      There was a moment when I was probably about two years old as well-

    29. SS

      As, I'm, I'm amazed that you have memories from two years old

    30. JC

      ... Yeah. Well, I have kind of two main memories from when I was two. One is the memory I already gave you-

  19. 49:49 – 51:58

    To be a container for creativity

    1. SS

      I think, the idea of, of being a vessel, the idea of being a container, and the word container's come up a few times. But I, this idea I think of being the messenger-

    2. JC

      Mm-hmm

    3. SS

      ... for some sort of expression and discovery, I think is, is, is your genius. You've, you've touched on it a few times, which is you make musicians out of people who didn't know they were musicians. You make music out of people who aren't musicians. You said, you know, h- if half the audience is musical, it just goes quicker. They just learn quicker. But, and I think that your music itself is so exploratory-

    4. JC

      Mm

    5. SS

      ... form full and formless.

    6. JC

      [laughs] Oh, thank you

    7. SS

      ... that I, I think that what you give us is, is a megaphone. Like, you're the megaphone, weirdly, and not the, the sound going into the megaphone.

    8. JC

      Oh, I think that's so, that's-

    9. SS

      I think that's who you are. And I think-

    10. JC

      That's amazingly put. I, I, I, I love, I mean, just in listening to your podcast-

    11. SS

      Thank you

    12. JC

      ... I love that moment at the end of the podcast when you say, and his, and he, basically, he's the container. And the way, the reason I love it so much is because it's, it's a thrilling thing to be kind of nestled into one concept. And as, as a person who is the person th- they are, it's, sometimes it's hard to see it. But I, I love the way that you put that, and I, I think it's interesting to me that I feel in, in some ways m- the most myself wh- when I'm that megaphone for, for others.

    13. SS

      Yeah.

    14. JC

      But there's something about that being that megaphone, which also feels like it is me, but it's also not me.

    15. SS

      Yeah.

    16. JC

      And there's that, there's that funny dance between, yeah, being, being one pixel in the image, and yet also being the i- be- being the image.

    17. SS

      Well, I think, I think it's a healthy relationship with ego, right? Which is if the music comes through you, are you the music, or are you just the vessel for the music? And it's healthy to not know. It's healthy to go between the two.

    18. JC

      Hop, yeah.

    19. SS

      You know, it's healthy to have an ego, but it's healthy to be humbled. And I'm, I'm just a megaphone for the music.

    20. JC

      Sure. Sure, sure, sure.

    21. SS

      Not necessarily my music.

    22. JC

      Yeah. One question

  20. 51:58 – 54:13

    Catching ideas is like surfing

    1. JC

      I have for you off the back of that, I think is, is regard to catching ideas. Because you are like a meister of, of, of, of ideas, but you're also a, a kind of distiller of them.

    2. SS

      Mm.

    3. JC

      And I often think about this idea of being a surfer. It's kind of the, one of the best ideas I've, I've ever... the one of the best images I've ever encountered to d- to try and describe what's going on here. People talk about ideas coming to them from above.

    4. SS

      Yeah.

    5. JC

      Some- some, some divine place.

    6. SS

      Yeah.

    7. JC

      And, and they're just completely a vessel.

    8. SS

      Yeah.

    9. JC

      This idea of I am just a vessel. I'm hollow. Come through me.

    10. SS

      That's not who you are.

    11. JC

      And come... I've never experienced it in quite this way-

    12. SS

      So nothing you've, nothing you've explained or said here has that metaphor.

    13. JC

      Well, the way I think about it is it, it is partly that. I mean, there is certainly a mysterious source. But the reason I love surfing as an analogy... I, do you surf?

    14. SS

      I don't do anything on boards.

    15. JC

      Really? Okay.

    16. SS

      It's not that I don't want to.

    17. JC

      Yeah.

    18. SS

      It just, I don't, just, I'm not good at boards.

    19. JC

      Fair play.

    20. SS

      Skateboarding, anything.

    21. JC

      I mean, I also don't do much-

    22. SS

      [laughs]

    23. JC

      I don't do much on boards either, but I've surfed a couple times, and there's an amazing thing about it. Mo- it's mostly patience. You're mostly just waiting for the wave.

    24. SS

      Yeah.

    25. JC

      And just being like, "Okay, when's it coming?"

    26. SS

      And then it strikes.

    27. JC

      And then, and then when it... But, uh, but then there's technique required, psychological and physical technique required, when it comes to know how to catch it, right-

    28. SS

      Yeah, yeah, yeah

    29. JC

      ... and ride it out correctly.

    30. SS

      I think that's, that's the difference. So what you and I do that's similar, people ask me what's my creative process, and I always say that it's, um, it's days of guilt and self-loathing punctuated by hours of sheer brilliance.

  21. 54:13 – 58:29

    Jacob plays Simon a Bartok Bagatelle

    1. SS

      Do you know that [singing] ?

    2. JC

      I don't think I do know that.

    3. SS

      Okay. So I heard a concert, and I'm gonna play it for you, and then do whatever you want. [piano music]

    4. JC

      That's so beautiful. God, Bartók's the man.

    5. SS

      All right, so this is totally a selfish request. I've got a Grammy artist with me, and instead of asking you to play your music, I'm asking you to play Bartók.

    6. JC

      Okay. [laughs]

    7. SS

      Is that wrong?

    8. JC

      No, that, I, I, I-

    9. SS

      [laughs]

    10. JC

      ... I don't think that's, I don't think that's wrong.

    11. SS

      [laughs]

    12. JC

      So it was like [playing piano]

    13. SS

      Goosebumps.

    14. JC

      Aw.

    15. SS

      That was very generous.

    16. JC

      Thank you very much. Well, it's, uh, I've never been asked that in my life, ever before.

    17. SS

      [laughs]

    18. JC

      That Bartók is the man.

    19. SS

      Oh, so good.

    20. JC

      Th- thank you for your time.

    21. SS

      Thank you so much.

    22. JC

      It's really, really a joy.

    23. SS

      Such a joy. If you enjoyed this podcast and would like to hear more, please subscribe wherever you like to listen to podcasts. And if you'd like even more optimism, check out my website, simonsinek.com, for classes, videos, and more. Until then, take care of yourself, take care of each other.

Episode duration: 58:30

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