Simon SinekYour Limits Are Learned (And They Can Be Unlearned) | Brain Coach Jim Kwik
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
55 min read · 11,490 words- 0:00 – 0:25
The Boy With the Broken Brain: When Labels Become Limits
- JKJim Kwik
One day I was being teased in class. The teacher came to my defense. She said, "Leave that kid alone. That's the boy with the broken brain." So that, that label became my, my limit. Adults have to be very careful of their external words 'cause they often become a child's internal words.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah. I'm curious what it was that, that broke the narrative and helped you recognize that you indeed, you know, weren't broken-
- JKJim Kwik
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... but in fact were quite the opposite. You, you're limitless.
- 0:25 – 6:51
The Power of Adult Words on Children
- SSSimon Sinek
Too many of us are still walking around with a self-belief that came from our childhood. When we were young, somebody may have told us that we were bad at math or that we were lazy. Whatever it was, we still say those things about ourselves today. That label became part of our identity. Worse, those labels become our limits. That's why I wanted to talk to Jim Kwik, because that's exactly what happened to him. When Jim was five years old, he suffered a brain injury, and it delayed his ability to read by three years. When he was nine years old, a well-meaning but probably shortsighted teacher called him the boy with the broken brain. The problem was that label stuck, and Jim believed it. That label became his identity, and it held him back in all kinds of places in his life until he learned how to overcome the label. Today, Jim is a leading expert on memory and accelerated learning. He's the bestselling author of Limitless, and his new book, Limitless Daily, offers daily upgrades to transform our lives. This is the great irony. The boy with the broken brain has spent over three decades teaching people to read faster, remember more, and think better. This episode covers a lot of ground, and we come to some amazing conclusions by the end. But at a high level, what it's about is that difficult times can define us, diminish us, distract us, or develop us. We get to decide. If you like this episode, please remember to subscribe. This is A Bit of Optimism. [upbeat music] This episode is proudly brought to you by SAP. The best companies all have something in common. They have figured out how to build a culture in which their people feel cared for. They invest in relationships, in curiosity, and in helping their people grow, and the results speak for themselves. People want to work there for a long time, and the companies themselves become powerhouses. To learn more about SAP GROW, head to sap.com/grow. The one and only Jim Kwik.
- JKJim Kwik
Simon Sinek.
- SSSimon Sinek
I can't believe it's been this long since we've done a podcast together. I did yours a million years ago.
- JKJim Kwik
Yeah. We did a, we did a few-
- SSSimon Sinek
Like, you were one of the OG podcasters.
- JKJim Kwik
We did a few episodes.
- SSSimon Sinek
You were doing it before there was a thing called podcasting. [laughs]
- JKJim Kwik
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
Now everybody's got a podcast.
- JKJim Kwik
I saw on Facebook Memories, like it was nine years ago, somebody spliced you and I on stages, and it has 38 million views, and it was talking about our devices and how just you need to talk about having the phone as a distractor.
- SSSimon Sinek
You and I were talking about that a long time ago.
- JKJim Kwik
It was, this was... Yeah. It's timely now especially, but, uh-
- SSSimon Sinek
I know. It's true. We were, we were making some serious predictions back then.
- JKJim Kwik
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
And you have no gray hair.
- JKJim Kwik
[laughs]
- SSSimon Sinek
My hairline is definitely receding.
- JKJim Kwik
That was, yeah, that was, that was, that was a special time.
- SSSimon Sinek
Your career, I mean, you're known for memory and learning, but I'm so curious how a career progresses.
- JKJim Kwik
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
You know? When Start With Why first came out-
- JKJim Kwik
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... people called me the Why Guy, right?
- JKJim Kwik
The Why Guy.
- SSSimon Sinek
Everybody knew me as the Why Guy. I didn't come up with that, and I was so afraid of being stuck in one thing.
- JKJim Kwik
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
What have you learned about learning over the course of, how many years you've been doing this?
- JKJim Kwik
I am turning 53, so it's, uh, 34 years.
- SSSimon Sinek
34 years.
- JKJim Kwik
Yeah. Well, that's a very meta question, you know, learning about, about how I learn.
- 6:51 – 9:54
The Freshman English Failure: Rock Bottom Before the Breakthrough
- JKJim Kwik
that. I remember when I was a freshman in high school and I was, I was failing, uh, high school English. That was tough. They had to pull my parents out of work and have one of those awkward conversations after school. The teacher said, "Your son's failing my class. He's not gonna pass and might be held, held back." I was so embarrassed because I'm the oldest of three siblings, and I wanna be a good role model, you know, for my younger brother and sister. So I, I begged and plead, and the, he off- she offered me extra credit. I had to do a book report on Albert Einstein. So I promised my parents, I promised the teacher, and she was caring, so she was, she was there. I have such a respect for tea- My mother became a special ed- education teacher to help me with my, my challenges. She recently retired out of New York Public School system. I promised, I said, "I'm gonna really do this. I'm gonna show people what I could do, make my parents proud," 'cause I'd never been able to do much, 'cause I didn't lack the effort. Like, I would work three times harder, but I just wouldn't be as smart. And there was only one other Asian in, in, in my sch- in the school system, but, uh, he was a year older, and he was just class valedictorian, head of the debate team, head of the math team, scored a 1590 on his SATs, was so upset, had to take it again to get it perfect.
- SSSimon Sinek
You were failing all the stereotypes.
- JKJim Kwik
Yeah. [laughs] So-
- SSSimon Sinek
He was, he was keeping them alive.
- JKJim Kwik
And he was like-
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- JKJim Kwik
... I made that part of the bell curve possible, 'cause I was on the other side.
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- JKJim Kwik
But I feel like maybe set also a benchmark for people's cognitive bias in, in the school. But I felt a lot of undue pressure. Not that people really cared about me. So I'd spend every day in the library, this was before internet, just researching Albert Einstein. Found out he had some learning challenges, which was interesting.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- JKJim Kwik
Which is maybe why this teacher put, pointed me in that direction. But I remember weeks later, I'm so excited, 'cause I never worked so focused and so hard on something ever. The day it was, it was due, my, my father surprised me and had it, like, professionally bound. This was, like, a symbol of, like... I, I was so ex- I never got excited to go to school. But this day I was just skipping on air, and I couldn't wait to hand it in. And in class, I'm just, I can't wait. Like, I'm just, like, really happy. And, and towards the end of the class, the teacher looks at me and says, "Jim, we have a surprise for everybody, class. Jim, come to the front of the room and present your book report." And I just, "Oh my goodness." I didn't realize I had to talk about it.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- JKJim Kwik
Like, I, my mouth is getting dry just thinking about it. My challenge besides learning was public speaking. So I'm pointing out how bad it really was. Let me give you one more example, and then I'll, I'll, I'll show you the intervention. I was so nervous that I looked at the teacher. I said, "I didn't do it. I lied." And you could see the disappointment in her face, 'cause she really cared. And after the class let out, and I'm the only one there, I remember going, standing up, going to the door to leave the classroom, reaching in my backpack, pulling out the book report, and I threw it in the trash.
- SSSimon Sinek
Whoa.
- JKJim Kwik
Yeah. And I felt symbolically it was... But that's how bad it was, like, my fear of insecurity and self-esteem and not wanting to be seen. I couldn't read. I taught myself how to read by reading comic books, something about the illustrations brought it to life. But my superpower was being invisible, right? I didn't wanna take up space, 'cause I didn't wanna be bullied. I didn't wanna be called on in class. I would sit behind a tall kid, so I'd be an unseen.
- 9:54 – 13:16
The Breaking Point: Collapsing in the Library
- JKJim Kwik
But the intervention was, uh, I was fortunate enough to get into a local college, and I thought freshman meant I could make a fresh start. And I took all these classes. I'm like, "I'm gonna do it again," and I did worse, and I was ready to quit. And so the intervention came when I was ready, because I didn't know how to tell my parents. So a friend said, "Hey, I'm going home to see my family for the weekend. Why don't you come with and get some perspective?" And I find, Simon, that when you change your place or your people around-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm
- JKJim Kwik
... you get a different point of view.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- JKJim Kwik
And family's pretty well off, beautiful home on the water, and father's walking me around before dinner saying just the property, and says, innocent question, but the worst question you could ask me at the time, said, "Jim, how's school?" And I just break. Like, I'm pretty introverted and reserved. I just start bawling in front of this complete stranger, because I had so much just pent up. Tell him my whole story about broken brain. I'm ready to quit school. And he's like, "Jim, why are you in school?" You know. "What do you wanna be or do or share?" And I didn't have any answer. No one's ever asked me that question before. I just thought it's just, you know, what you do.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- JKJim Kwik
And when I go to answer him, he takes, like, a, a notepad out of his back pocket and rips out a couple sheets, made me write it down. And, uh, I honestly didn't... You know, it was hard exercise, but I really started dreaming about w- who I am and what I wanted to do, what motivated me. And when I'm done, I start folding the sheets to put in my back of my pocket thinking the exercise is over, and he just reaches out and grabs it right out of my hand, and he starts reading it. And I'm freaking out, right? I'm an 18-year-old kid, and this guy's obviously pretty successful, and he's looking at my dreams, things I haven't shared with anybody or maybe even acknowledged myself. And he says, "You're, you're this close to everything on that list." And he spreads his index fingers about a foot apart. And I'm thinking, "Give me 10 lifetimes, I'm not gonna crack that list."
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- JKJim Kwik
And then he takes his fingers, honest truth, and he puts them to the side of my head. Meaning inside, in between, there's a key. And he takes me to a room of his home that I've never seen before. It's wall to wall, ceiling to floor, covered in books
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm
- JKJim Kwik
And then I've never read a book, so it's like being in a room full of snakes. But what makes it worse is he starts grabbing snakes off the shelf and handing them to me. And I start looking at them, and there are these titles of some amazing men and women in history, like Napoleon Hill, Dale Carnegie
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm
- JKJim Kwik
... some of the, some of the icons. And he says, "Jim, you know, I want you to read one book a week." And I was like, "There's no way." I'm fighting for my limitations. At events all the time, people come to me and say, "I'm too old, I'm not smart enough," and I always say, "Stop. If you fight for your limitations, you know, you get to keep them." But I, I'm fighting for my limits. I'm like, "Can't do it." And I say, "I have too much schoolwork," and he whips out that Mark Twain quote, "Don't let school get in the way of your education."
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah. [laughs]
- JKJim Kwik
And I was like, "Wow, that's really brilliant and clever"
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- JKJim Kwik
But I still can't promise, 'cause th- my word, if, you know, that's how my parents raised me, if I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna do it. And then he's very smart. He still has my, like, my dream list, my bucket list, and he takes it out and he starts reading every single thing line by line out loud
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm
- JKJim Kwik
And something about hearing your dreams or things that you want in another person's voice and chants it out in the universe, it just messed with my mind, my spirit, something fierce. And honestly, a lot of the things, some of them on the list, were things I wanted to do for my folks, things they could never afford to do. Even if they had the money, they wouldn't do it for themselves. And, you know, with that purpose, I agree to read the books. So fast-forward to the end of the story is, like, I'm back at school. I have a pile of books I have to read for midterms, a pile of books that I promised to read. I already couldn't get through pile A, so what do I do? I don't have time, so I don't eat, I don't sleep, I don't socialize, I don't ex- I don't do anything for weeks.
- 13:16 – 14:26
The Hospital Wake-Up Call: When Pushing Too Hard Nearly Killed Him
- JKJim Kwik
And then one night in the library, I'm just living at the library, I pass out, 2:00 in the morning. I remember it like it was yesterday. I fell down a flight of stairs, I hit my head again, and I woke up in the hospital two days later, hooked up to all these IVs. That was the scariest moment of my life. I was down to 117 pounds. I just thought I was not worth anything. It was the darkest time of my life. And then a nurse came in, and I said, "There has to be a better way," and to put a bow on it, nurse came in with a mug of tea. I drink a lot of tea. And on it was a drawing of Albert Einstein
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm
- JKJim Kwik
... like a little artistic piece. And it had that quote we've all heard, something of, like, "The same level of thinking that's created the problem won't solve your problem." And it made me ask a new question. Like, "What's my problem?" Well, I have a broken brain. How do I fix it? And, you know, I'm a slow learner. How do I learn better? I thought school. And I asked the nurse for a course bulletin. I looked at all these classes, and they're all classes on what to learn, like math, history, science, Spanish, but there are no really classes on how to learn or how to think
- SSSimon Sinek
Hmm
- JKJim Kwik
... and how to do it. So I m- I put that as my focus. But, you know, that s- that, that was a mentor that just... Those little things made a big difference. If you're gonna map out-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- JKJim Kwik
... like Joseph Campbell's hero's journey, like, that, that person was like a Yoda to me.
- 14:26 – 15:16
The Intervention: A Mentor Who Saw Potential, Not Limits
- SSSimon Sinek
The, what I find so interesting about that, um, is well-intended people tell you what you can do, and he didn't do that.
- JKJim Kwik
Hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
You told you what you wanted to accomplish, and he simply said, "So?" You know?
- JKJim Kwik
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
'Cause he held this beautiful, safe space for you where he didn't make you feel dumb or stupid or broken. He made you feel capable, possible, you know, all of these things. You wanted to do him right, you know?
- JKJim Kwik
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
In part it was for you, but in part it was because you wanted to do right by him.
- JKJim Kwik
I find that motivates me a lot. You know, I f- I feel even why I do what I do is just, I feel moral impetus because I'm still that kinda shy kid. I feel, still feel that.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- JKJim Kwik
Even when going on stages or in front of people or in, on media. I feel like shame on me if people are struggling the way I did and I didn't do something to be supportive
- 15:16 – 20:48
Accidental Careers: When Your Work Becomes Service to Others
- JKJim Kwik
of that.
- SSSimon Sinek
Y- y- you know, you and I are very similar in the sense that our work comes from the solutions we found to solve our own problems.
- JKJim Kwik
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
And because it worked for us, we shared it with the people we loved, and it turns out it worked for them. And then obsession and passion follow shortly 'cause you realize there's something magical here. And this is where I think the work is driven by service.
- JKJim Kwik
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
You know? And both of our careers are accidents. Neither of us imagined what we would be doing.
- JKJim Kwik
Yeah, I never went to a career fair.
- SSSimon Sinek
No, no, no.
- JKJim Kwik
Guidance counselor mentioned that this was an option.
- SSSimon Sinek
I mean, noth- nothing I'm doing in my life now was on any bucket list, dream list.
- JKJim Kwik
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
It wasn't on any plan. I love it when people say, "What's your plan for the next 10 years?" I'm like, "Ha. I'm not gonna start now." [laughs] But to your point, you know, there are dreams of impact. They're not goals.
- JKJim Kwik
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
They're not like, "I'm gonna, you know, make a million dollars," you know, "Be my own boss." They're not goals.
- JKJim Kwik
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
They're like, "I wanna be a cog in a big machine, but I want my cog to matter." You know? And you've seen the power, you know, from your parents to the teacher who probably knew what she was doing when she assigned you Einstein, to your friend's dad, who didn't have to do any of that. It's not a deep, meaningful relationship. He wasn't your lifelong mentor.
- JKJim Kwik
Right.
- SSSimon Sinek
It was an intervention that he probably didn't even realize he was making.
- JKJim Kwik
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
You know? And this is what I think is so profound about these relationships, is they're s- they're very often small. And I think, you know, if you look at this day and age, people are going through the world looking for the big thing to help them or looking for the levers, you know?
- JKJim Kwik
'Cause sometimes when something is so big, it gets abstract.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah, and big is impossible. Big is intimidating. I can't do big either. You know, I also... Like, you show me something huge, and like, where to begin? I'm like, "I don't know."
- JKJim Kwik
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
But I can do small things.
- JKJim Kwik
And, and small things matter, right? I, I-
- SSSimon Sinek
Small things and small relationships and small impacts and small interventions, all of these things are remarkable.
- JKJim Kwik
Yeah. I mean, it's great to recognize, like, that great things all had small beginnings. Like, every, every professional was once a, an amateur, right?
- SSSimon Sinek
The groups of people I used to speak to were seven, eight, nine.
- JKJim Kwik
Yeah. I remember, I remember those days.
- SSSimon Sinek
You know?
- 20:48 – 25:02
The First Class: 110 People Showed Up When He Expected Five
- JKJim Kwik
I didn't know, how do I get those people?
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- JKJim Kwik
And then when I had that thought, I was walking down, uh, the hallways. I saw a classroom not being used. I said, "Okay. Next week at this time in this room on this day-
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- JKJim Kwik
... I'm going to put like 5 or 10 people in there-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- JKJim Kwik
... for free and teach them for a couple hours what's working, and then maybe one or two wants to be tutored, right?
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- JKJim Kwik
And accept my help, and I said, "Okay." So I go back to my dorm room and I take out a, you know, 8 by 11 with a Sharpie and I write, "Free speed reading memory tips. Get better grades, less time. Thursday, 7:00 PM," that classroom, right?
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- JKJim Kwik
The next morning I make some photocopies on the way to class, put 'em on just some bulletin boards. Not a lot. Fast-forward to next Thursday, I'm walking down the hallway and I'm just thinking in my mind, "What am I doing?" I just hope five people-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- JKJim Kwik
... like believed in this, that this was like a thing, that wanna hear like my, what's working. And I, I turn the corner and there's like a crowd of people outside the classroom. God honest truth, I said, "I hope whatever is going on ends soon so I can do my thing," right?
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- JKJim Kwik
And I can't even get in because there's this really tall guy in the doorway, and I'm like, "M- what's going on inside?" And he looks down at me. He's like, "There's a speed reading class." God honest truth, I was like, "Wow, what a coincidence."
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- JKJim Kwik
Like what are the chances there's another speed reading class in the same room in the same night as mine? And I push my way in and as you can imagine, there's a crowd of people, people standing in the back. Every seat is taken, and there's no one teaching.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- JKJim Kwik
Right? It's hard to see what you don't believe, right?
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- JKJim Kwik
It takes my slow brain all this time to realize why they're there and who they're there for. And I do a head count, and instead of 5 or 10 people, there's 110 people. Now I, remember, I'm, I'm an 18-year-old kid. I look like I'm 12, dressed in T-shirt, shorts. There's a lot of upperclassmen, teaching assistants, grad students.
- SSSimon Sinek
And the last time you had to do a public speech-
- JKJim Kwik
Right. I, I didn't-
- SSSimon Sinek
... you, you pretended you didn't do the work. Yeah
- JKJim Kwik
... I literally have never spoken in public.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- JKJim Kwik
And so I'm freaking out. Like where most people are nervous of it, I'm like, "I can't breathe." So I leave. Like I leave the room, the classroom, 'cause I can't even speak. And, um, and I'm embarrassed, right? I go to this fountain 'cause I can't even go back to my dorm room because th- my, you know, friends will tease me and everything else. And I just start trying to get myself together, be mindful and kind of meditate, get my bearings and, and I hear this voice inside my head and it's my mom's. I won't tell you exactly what she said, but it's the effect of, "You promised all these people you're gonna help them. You're disappointing them. You're disappointing me," kind of message.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm. Mm. Mm.
- JKJim Kwik
And I'm doing this walking meditation back to the dorm room, and I swear I stop and I take one step back to the classroom. And isn't that instructive? Like one step in another direction. If you're going this way and you go this way, you end up in a completely different destination.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah, yeah.
- 25:02 – 26:19
30 Books in 30 Days: The Student Who Saved Her Mother's Life
- SSSimon Sinek
Wow.
- JKJim Kwik
Now, this changed my life, 'cause I thought this was a one-off.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- JKJim Kwik
Right? She read 30 books in 30 days. I wanna find out not how, but I wanna know why.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- JKJim Kwik
Right? And so I wanna start with why. I wanted to find out, you know, 'cause a lot of people know what to do but they don't do it, right?
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah, yeah.
- JKJim Kwik
And I find out her mother was diagnosed, oh goodness, like a to- uh, with terminal cancer.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- JKJim Kwik
Was given just two months to live by doctors. And the books she was reading were books that saved her mom's life.
- SSSimon Sinek
Wow.
- JKJim Kwik
And that's what I said. Six months goes by, I get a call from this young lady, and on the phone she's crying profusely. I don't know how much time goes by, but when she stops, I find out they're tears of joy, that her mother not only survived, but is really getting better. Doctors don't know how or why. They were calling it a miracle. But her mother attributed 100% to great advice she got from her daughter, who learned it from all these books.
- SSSimon Sinek
Wow.
- JKJim Kwik
And in that moment, Simon, I realized like two things. I realized that if knowledge is power, then learning is, is, is our superpower. 'Cause our lives are a reflection of like the decisions we make, right? Life is letter C between B and D, where B is birth and D is death. Life is choice.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- JKJim Kwik
You know? But basically I believe that these difficult times can define you.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah, yeah.
- JKJim Kwik
These difficult times can diminish you, distract you, or develop you, right?
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- JKJim Kwik
We decide. And so that was a choice, and she did it, and so I realized that, you know, we, we, we have a choice each day. But the other thing I realized was
- 26:19 – 29:07
Service Over Success: Why Purpose Matters More Than Profit
- JKJim Kwik
that I found my dharma, my mission.
- SSSimon Sinek
I learned this the hard way, that true purpose, uh, is not visions and dreams and all of this stuff.
- JKJim Kwik
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
But true purpose is the opportunity to serve those who serve others.
- JKJim Kwik
I like that.
- SSSimon Sinek
The thing that feeds my soul more than anything else-
- JKJim Kwik
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... is not helping some company make money. That does nothing for me, you know?
- JKJim Kwik
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
When I talk to people who've devoted their lives to service, you know, military, arts, doctors, nurses-
- JKJim Kwik
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... teachers. You know, when I get to help people like that, they're always the most joyful, most rewarding experiences I have. And you know this. You know, we, we live these weird lives now and where people will stop us on the street and say thank you because they were able to help somebody else.
- JKJim Kwik
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Those are the ones that get me. You helped me start my business. I mean, those are amazing, and I, and I'm grateful that my work-
- JKJim Kwik
Hell yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... can have that impact. But when I hear about how, just like your story, your work taught me something, showed me something, whatever it is, whatever-
- JKJim Kwik
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... the impact is, that I did something for an employee, that I did something for a friend, that I did something for-
- JKJim Kwik
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... somebody who was in pain. And I always say the same thing, "Thank you for sharing that story." That inspires me to keep going.
- JKJim Kwik
I love that.
- SSSimon Sinek
And I think we live in a very, we live in a very selfish world, you know? Our, our nation over-indexed on individualism. We came up in a generation that was about, you know, greed is good.
- JKJim Kwik
Right.
- SSSimon Sinek
And what can you do and how much can you make, and that we're supposed to be competing against each other, which is nonsense.
- JKJim Kwik
Very finite game.
- SSSimon Sinek
Very finite game, yep. And it might be fun at times, but it's not fulfilling.
- JKJim Kwik
Right.
- SSSimon Sinek
It's not inspiring. You meet these people who've had tremendous, quote unquote, success, you know, traditionally defined, and yet they're bored, they're not happy.
- JKJim Kwik
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
They're lost. And if they stop doing that thing that made them, quote unquote, successful, their identity was stripped away from them, you know? Uh-
- 29:07 – 31:31
The Service Paradox: Why the Best Businesses Are Built on Caring
- JKJim Kwik
this?
- SSSimon Sinek
Our favorite CEOs, and this is not an anti-business, this is a very pro-business message. Jim Sinegal, you know, who was the CEO of Costco, I mean, he was like dogged about serving his customer.
- JKJim Kwik
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
You know? Or you have Jesse Cole, who's the founder and CEO of, of the Savannah Bananas, dogged about giving back to his customers, his guests. Walt Disney, dogged about creating an experience for people to escape the stresses of their lives, to come-
- JKJim Kwik
Mm
- SSSimon Sinek
... to this place where they can leave their stresses behind and come into this magical world. All of these people, they were driven by service and they operated in business.
- JKJim Kwik
Right.
- SSSimon Sinek
But they were driven by service.
- JKJim Kwik
The business was more of an expression of that service.
- SSSimon Sinek
The, the business was the expression, it was the manner, the thing that they found. But they were insanely service-oriented, and when you're that service-oriented, you also take care of your own people.
- JKJim Kwik
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Because if you have a service orientation, you can't not. Those guys, even though they m- Did make tons of money, and they did have, you know, success by traditional terms. None of them defined their own success by those things.
- JKJim Kwik
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
My, my friend and mentor, Bob Chapman, he said, "You know, we define success by how we touch the lives of people." You know?
- JKJim Kwik
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Like, "Don't ask me how my company's doing. Ask me how my people are." You know? And so service isn't one of these corny things. It's not something you volunteer on the weekend.
- JKJim Kwik
Right.
- SSSimon Sinek
You know? I do that. I like that as well, but that is not the compensation or the balance for the, the life you live during the day, which is a taking life. You know? It's the same mentality as like, "I'm gonna get rich, and then once I have my millions, then I'm gonna give to charity." You know? It's like, mm, or [laughs]
- JKJim Kwik
[laughs] Right, right, right.
- SSSimon Sinek
Or, and it's so much more fulfilling to give time and energy to another human being than just simply giving money.
- JKJim Kwik
That 1,000%.
- SSSimon Sinek
You know?
- JKJim Kwik
You learn to earn to return. The business could certainly be a force for good.
- SSSimon Sinek
100% business-
- JKJim Kwik
You know?
- SSSimon Sinek
... could be a force for good.
- JKJim Kwik
Ab- absolutely, so these people could do well by doing good.
- SSSimon Sinek
And then you use the business as the tool to serve, to serve people, to serve customers, to serve employees, to serve communities, and that doesn't mean taking the profit and then giving it away. That means-
- JKJim Kwik
Right
- SSSimon Sinek
... the physical structure of the business is built to serve.
- 31:31 – 32:23
Grow Givers vs Go Getters: Growing So You Have More to Give
- JKJim Kwik
in this, there's this self-improvement trap where people are always trying to, like, optimize for, for everything, but it's also feel like there's a paradox there because if it's, you know, self-improvement potentially could be good to grow until it's not, right, where it's just self-rejection or people are motivated because they have to win in order to prove something to themselves or they are a certain kind of people or to be happy. I feel like we grow to give. I have this term that is called grow givers. I feel like, 'cause back in, it, it was like go, go getting, right? So it's getting, getting, getting. But then you could b- turn it upside down. You could go and, and give, and give, and give, but then you're depleted 'cause I get to work with a lot of caregivers. A grow giver is someone who grows so they have more to give.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm.
- JKJim Kwik
You know? And I feel like it's more healthy harmony between... 'Cause it gives me purpose. Then I have, I could grow, then the distinctions grow, emotionally grow in those ways so I have more to be able to offer to the, to people who could
- 32:23 – 34:24
Why Smart People Can't Finish Books
- JKJim Kwik
benefit.
- SSSimon Sinek
So I wanna change subjects.
- JKJim Kwik
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
And I wanna ask you an entirely selfish question.
- JKJim Kwik
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
I love the idea of reading.
- JKJim Kwik
[laughs] Okay.
- SSSimon Sinek
And I buy books like they're going out of fashion.
- JKJim Kwik
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
And I've started a lot of books.
- JKJim Kwik
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
And I can't finish them, and my ADHD, I get very distracted or I'm like, "Oh, I'll read," but then I don't, you know?
- JKJim Kwik
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And I, and I have the books piled up next to my bed. Literally, I have a pile of books next to my bed that don't get read.
- JKJim Kwik
Right.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right?
- JKJim Kwik
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
And when I was a kid, they would do these reading comprehension things where the, I, I don't know if you remember the little light that went across the sentence or the words.
- JKJim Kwik
Oh, you're lucky.
- SSSimon Sinek
Do you remember the-
- JKJim Kwik
Yeah, yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... you know? And they had to take the cellophane off the highest level because no one had ever done it before-
- JKJim Kwik
Right
- SSSimon Sinek
... for me to do it. And so when I'm locked in and when I'm focused-
- JKJim Kwik
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... and the ADHD is my best friend, I could read faster and retain what was going on l- literally better than the whole class.
- JKJim Kwik
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right? But that's not how one reads, which is with the little light going across the words-
- JKJim Kwik
Right
- SSSimon Sinek
... to help me focus, and I'm terrible. Even when I'm really well-intended, I'll sit down and I'll read the first page and I'll be like, "Oh my God. This book is great," and I'll finish the first, you know, section.
- 34:24 – 38:49
Your Brain Is Bored, Not Broken
- JKJim Kwik
Let's unpack this. So, um, we know the importance of reading.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- JKJim Kwik
Right? So that doesn't have to be, but for some people listening, maybe they're just not motivated because they don't see the relevance.
- SSSimon Sinek
I'm bought into the reading.
- JKJim Kwik
Yeah. That's for sure.
- SSSimon Sinek
I just wish I-
- JKJim Kwik
Yeah. Somebody has decades of experience like you do, and you put it into your next book, and somebody could read that book in a few days.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- JKJim Kwik
They could download decades of insight and experience in days. That's a huge advantage. Plus, reading is just great exercise for your mind. I would say visual pacer could help certainly. This is trainable. I feel like a lot of people don't read as much because they're not getting the benefit. Either they're distracted, or they forget, or they lose interest, and they get bored, and partly is because they're reading too slow. So like John F. Kennedy, a lot of leaders are readers, right? He was said to have read at, uh, something more like 800 to 1,000 words a minute, you know, where the average person reads about 200 words a minute. He's said to have read six newspapers every morning with a cup of coffee. One of his speeches is about 280 words a minute, so he could talk at 280 words a minute but process at much higher than that, right? And so he's not saying all the words. So part of it's reducing that sub-vocalization, right? Sub-vocalization, you ever notice when you're reading something you hear that inner voice reading along with you?
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah. Yeah.
- JKJim Kwik
Right? Hopefully it's your own voice.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- JKJim Kwik
It's not like somebody else's.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah, yeah.
- JKJim Kwik
But if you're saying the words-
- SSSimon Sinek
You read-
- JKJim Kwik
... it implies that you can only read as fast as you could speak, not how fast you could think.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- JKJim Kwik
That's why a lot of people could listen to podcasts or audiobooks at faster s- speeds.
- SSSimon Sinek
And by the way, I li- when I listen to podcasts, I listen to them at double speed.
- JKJim Kwik
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Two times speed.
- JKJim Kwik
And so you can understand at that speed.
- SSSimon Sinek
Sometimes the speed is too slow.
- JKJim Kwik
Right. Exactly.
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- JKJim Kwik
And that's a great testament to, to the, to reading because if you could understand it that fast, but you can't speak that fast.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- JKJim Kwik
Right?
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- 38:49 – 40:23
The Visual Pacer Hack That Changes Everything
- JKJim Kwik
So visual pacer could work, all right? But you have to pull yourself through the information, 'cause your eyes are attracted to motion, right? If someone ran across, if you're watching this on video, no one would pay attention to either of us. You'd, your eyes through, as a hunter-gatherer, if the bu- bush next to you moves, you have to look-
- SSSimon Sinek
Right
- JKJim Kwik
... 'cause that's your survival.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- JKJim Kwik
'Cause number one, that could, you could, that could be lunch.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- JKJim Kwik
Or number two, you, you could be lunch.
- SSSimon Sinek
You could be lunch.
- JKJim Kwik
Right?
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- JKJim Kwik
Either way. So your eyes are attracted to motion. So when you're using a visual pacer, a highlighter, a mouse on a computer, you know, a pen, your finger, whatever it is, your eyes are being pulled through the information as opposed to your attention being pulled apart. And also it's how your senses work. Like, have you ever tasted a great peach?
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- JKJim Kwik
See, you're not actually tasting the peach. Your tongue's not capable of tasting what a peach tastes like. It's smelling the peach.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- JKJim Kwik
But your sense of smell and taste are so closely linked, your mind can't tell the difference, unless you're sick.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- JKJim Kwik
If you're congested, food doesn't taste the same, right?
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- JKJim Kwik
Just as your sense of smell and taste are closely linked, so is your sense of sight and touch, that literally when people use their finger, they feel more in touch with their reading. And so what I would say is using your finger will help you improve your speed, 'cause your eyes aren't gonna... The opposite is regression.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yep.
- JKJim Kwik
Regression is back skipping.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- JKJim Kwik
Rereading words. Some people read whole lines by accident. And as you're wasting all that time, you're not gonna back skip when you're pulling your finger across the page, or using a highlighter, a pen, or whatever, using a screen that's not touching the screen. There's friction, so I go right above the page. I, I burn a lot of books up that way. But I would say that your eyes are being pulled through it.
- SSSimon Sinek
Do you recommend I use a pen?
- JKJim Kwik
I use, I use a pen, 'cause I, I, I do annotate.
- SSSimon Sinek
So drag, so drag the pen as fast as I can while so-
- JKJim Kwik
Not, not touching the page, but right above it, right?
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- JKJim Kwik
To help you focus, right?
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- 40:23 – 44:55
Ask Better Questions: How to Prime Your Brain Before You Read
- JKJim Kwik
AI, we're not prompting our mind with useful questions. Like, if you're reading something and asking yourself questions like, "How can I use this? How does this relate to what I know? When will I use this?" It keeps you engaged, because then you're pull... It's, your brain primarily is a deletion device, right? We, if we let everything in, we go mad.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- JKJim Kwik
Right? We'd be overloaded. We'd go insane. So primarily, we're trying to filter information-
- SSSimon Sinek
Out
- JKJim Kwik
... out.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- JKJim Kwik
The things that we let in, there's like a little gatekeeper called your reticular activating system, which everyone, a lot of people have heard about, RAS. It's engaged by what's important to you, and usually what directs that, that spotlight, are the questions you're asking, right? So like years ago, my younger sister would send me postcards and emails, a very specific breed of dog, like a pug dog, right? My question was like, "Why does she keep sending me these things?" And I realized her birthday was coming up, and it was like, she's a good marketer.
- SSSimon Sinek
[laughs]
- JKJim Kwik
But the funny thing happened, when I started asking the question about this, I would go to the supermarket, and I'd be checking out, and the person in front of me is holding a pug dog. I'd be jogging in my neighborhood, and somebody's walking six pug dogs. Now, my question for everyone listening, and this is kind of obvious, did those pug dogs just teleport-
- SSSimon Sinek
No, of course not
- JKJim Kwik
... into my... No.
- SSSimon Sinek
It's because, it's because-
- JKJim Kwik
But I was blocking it.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right, yeah.
- JKJim Kwik
Right?
- SSSimon Sinek
It's in your mind, and now you see them everywhere.
- JKJim Kwik
Exactly.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right, of course.
- JKJim Kwik
Because I was deleting them before, 'cause it wasn't important.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- JKJim Kwik
When I started asking the question about pugs, then I started seeing them everywhere.
- SSSimon Sinek
Like, like you buy a car 'cause you think, "I'm the only person that has this car."
- JKJim Kwik
Exactly.
- SSSimon Sinek
Then all of a sudden you buy it, and everybody has that car. [laughs]
- JKJim Kwik
And that's why that attentional priming is so very valuable questions, because there's a dominant question I feel like we ask all the time. And so if we have 60,000 thoughts a day, a lot of those thoughts come in the form of questions. That's how we think. We ask and answer questions. There is a certain one or two questions that we ask more than any other, and it's individual per person, and those questions are determining our focus all the time, right? I walked my friend through this process. We found out her dominant question she asks hundreds of times a day, consciously, probably much more unconsciously, "How do I get people to like me?" But you don't know anything about this woman, what her career, what she looks like, or nothing, but you probably know a lot about her personality.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- JKJim Kwik
If someone is obsessed, trying to answer, look, trying to spotlight on, "How do I get this person to like me?"
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- JKJim Kwik
What, how would you describe their life or their personality?
- SSSimon Sinek
I mean, they're probably gonna show up a bit much
- 44:55 – 46:00
Focus Is a Muscle: Training Attention in the Age of AI
- JKJim Kwik
right?
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm
- JKJim Kwik
And part of it is that, you know, it's potentially suggested that because of how fast the, the medium is with social media, right, in terms of attention span.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm
- JKJim Kwik
So I, I believe focus is a muscle, right? And it's, you exercise it. And what I would say is, like, control, control your focus. Flex your focus muscle. And in, in muscle in the age of attention, where everyone's trying to vie for your attention, right? But you could practice your focus muscle.
- SSSimon Sinek
This goes back, we have to remember who built AI. Engineers. Okay? Engineers built AI. Engineers are numbers people, data people. They're good with it. God bless them, but they're not people people.
- JKJim Kwik
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
And they very often, they always leave the people component out. So if I hear another person telling me that AI can do the work of the doctor better and replace your radiologist and all of this stuff, and some of that may be true. Like, there's machines that, you know, where it'll scan your whole body. It'll, it'll-
- JKJim Kwik
Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... calculate the number of moles you have on your entire body, including their size, and then when you go back next year, it'll know if it's got a new mole or if one grew slightly bigger. Your dermatologist cannot do that, right? So
- 46:00 – 47:33
Why AI Will Never Replace Bedside Manner
- SSSimon Sinek
it's quite possible that the technology and the AI will absolutely replace the dermatologist. It's quite possible, at least for some of the stuff that they're gonna do. But what everybody forgets is bedside manner.
- JKJim Kwik
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
Like, none of us like doctors that have no bedside manner. We're a human being, and if we're being diagnosed with a horrible illness-
- JKJim Kwik
Right
- SSSimon Sinek
... you don't want a computer to just simply spit out the answer of what it accurately diagnosed you with, and good luck with the, with the treatment that... You know, you want a doctor to hold your hand and say, "I've got some really hard news." And this idea of bedside manner, a human being caring for a human being, aided by the computer, no problem with that. But this idea that AI will replace the people is nonsense because people want people.
- JKJim Kwik
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
I want a doctor delivering bad news to me, not a machine.
- JKJim Kwik
AI's not, whether it replaces or not is a different conversation. I would say that a calculator computes better than a human brain can.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right
- JKJim Kwik
Uh, AI could process information infinitely faster than-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- JKJim Kwik
... a human brain can. But that, those two devices aren't going to sit in the mud with you-
- SSSimon Sinek
Right
- JKJim Kwik
... when you're going through those challenges. They're not gonna help a grieving child. It has no experience of falling in love or breakups or any of those things. And so yeah, I lean heavy into, into, into the human intelligence and wisdom over artificial intelligence. And AI is technology. Technology is supposed to just amplify our expression of our-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- JKJim Kwik
... ourselves. My thing with technology is just for that re- we don't wanna be overly dependent on it. That's the, the reliance. I talk, you know, digital dementia where technology is remembering everything for you, your to-dos, your, your phone numbers.
- 47:33 – 49:11
Digital Dementia: When Technology Remembers So You Don't Have To
- JKJim Kwik
Not that I wanna memorize 5,000 phone numbers.
- SSSimon Sinek
Don't you remember the Iliad? The Iliad-
- JKJim Kwik
Mm-hmm
- SSSimon Sinek
... was, um, passed down, um, through story over generations.
- JKJim Kwik
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
Like, it'd be like, "Son, it's time for me to tell you the Iliad." You know?
- JKJim Kwik
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
And it was passed down because we could remember it. And-
- JKJim Kwik
Before printing presses-
- SSSimon Sinek
Right. Of course
- JKJim Kwik
... and everything, any kind of technology
- SSSimon Sinek
And the printing press, then our brains just stopped.
- JKJim Kwik
And not that you wanna memorize 1,000 phone numbers, but it should be concerning we've lost the ability to remember one, or a PIN number, or the hotel room-
- SSSimon Sinek
But it is amazing that because the technology existed, my brain decided to go on strike
- JKJim Kwik
And that's, that's digital dementia.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- JKJim Kwik
The high reliance on technology to remember so you don't have to use it. And I'm, I'm, I'm for convenience, but you don't want it to be crippling. So I talk about digital deduction, and just think about GPS, right? If you're using a third-party piece of technology to tell you when and where to turn, you never develop your s- visual-
- SSSimon Sinek
No
- JKJim Kwik
... spatial intelligence-
- SSSimon Sinek
You pay no attention
- JKJim Kwik
... or your, your orientation in space or anything else like that
- SSSimon Sinek
No, you're just busy changing the radio station-
- JKJim Kwik
Right
- SSSimon Sinek
... or whatever, yeah
- JKJim Kwik
And so you don't have to develop it, and it's convenient. What my concern is, if your apartment or office is on the fifth floor and you take the technology, which is called an elevator, convenient. Very convenient. But then you don't get the workout of the stairs, right? If you have to go to the bank eight blocks away, you take an Uber or a Lyft, convenient, but then we don't get our steps in, right?
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah
- JKJim Kwik
So I'm all for using te- any form of technology. It's not good or bad. Fire is a, it's an early form of technology. It could cook your food or it could burn down your home, how it's applied. You know, I think the intentionality is very important that we bring to something that's gonna scale. But also AI doesn't know... It could feign artificial empathy, but it doesn't understand heartbreak or-
- SSSimon Sinek
Or ca- or care
- JKJim Kwik
Right
- SSSimon Sinek
It's not the teacher-
- 49:11 – 50:18
It Was Never About the Information, It Was The Power of Being Seen
- JKJim Kwik
No
- SSSimon Sinek
The AI might say all those things, and it wouldn't have changed who you are.
- JKJim Kwik
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
The AI might have given you all the same advice. "You should do a book report on Einstein," the AI said.
- JKJim Kwik
Right
- SSSimon Sinek
The AI says, "Hey, write down all your dreams. It's all possible between these two fingers." All of that could have been true-
- JKJim Kwik
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... and it wouldn't have changed your life at all-
- JKJim Kwik
Yeah
- SSSimon Sinek
... because it wasn't the information they were giving you that mattered. It was that you felt a human being cared about you and saw you and supported you.
- JKJim Kwik
Yeah. I just got goosebumps. I call them truth bumps
- SSSimon Sinek
And that's how you became Jim Kwik. It was human beings who loved you and cared about you, and not the answers or the information they gave you. Took it full circle.
- JKJim Kwik
That was beautiful.
- SSSimon Sinek
It's such a treat to sit down and talk to you.
- JKJim Kwik
Yeah. I've, I've been looking-
- SSSimon Sinek
It's been a long time
- JKJim Kwik
... yeah. But I flew out here just to, to hang out, and I'm glad we could have this conversation.
- SSSimon Sinek
As always, thank you for watching. If you liked this episode, please subscribe to A Bit of Optimism for more interesting guests and even more interesting conversations. New episodes drop every Tuesday. But if you'd like more optimism right now, click here to watch another episode. Until next time, take care of yourself. Take care of each other.
Episode duration: 50:19
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