How Asking ‘Why?’ Changes What You Build | Kunal Shah

1. 0:00 – 1:17

   Trailer

   1. KSKunal Shah0:00

      And I think the biggest thing I've seen is that people lose their curiosity very early on in life, and they build insecurity very early on, where their ability to ask stupid questions dramatically goes low. And we are a society where we all have to look cool and high status, so asking stupid questions and being shameless is not respected. And that stops the compounding growth of knowledge because it comes from just asking stupid questions constantly. The biggest question we lose as we grow up is the why question. We are always looking for how do I do this? What do I do? Looking for instruction and all of that. But why? Asking that why question in the negative inverse manner is a good thing to do, but we don't do that enough. Understanding of core motivation is important. I often use the analogy of rivers and dams. Most tech founders are great at building dams and terrible at finding rivers. When their dam does not create electricity, they do not think that, "Oh, shit, I have built this on a non-existent river." They keep fixing the dam and hope that river will come. Rivers don't come, rivers exist. And understanding of rivers comes from the human motivation, like what will people care about? You need to ask this question: Will they pay lakhs of rupees for this? Will they pay 10,000 rupees? Will they pay one rupee? Will they pay five rupees? Will they want it free only? Will they give me time for it?

2. 1:17 – 3:47

   Introduction

   1. PMPrateek Mehta1:17

      So it gives me great pleasure to invite Kunal. You're okay with that?

   2. KSKunal Shah1:21

      Yeah, keep going, keep talking, keep talking.

   3. PMPrateek Mehta1:22

      Yeah. Uh, to invite Kunal on the stage on SPC for Minus One Chat. Uh, so Kunal, you know, as I was reading through this, uh, bit of your backstory, right? Uh, and some of it I knew and a reasonable part of it I did not. But I did feel that, uh, the story is quite interesting, right? There are like lots of ups and downs, right? And especially, um, I, I almost think that it's, there's a bit of Bollywood flavor out there. You know, there's a movie out there, and I'm hoping against hope that Akshay Kumar doesn't play you in that movie, but maybe he will, right? You know, love to hear a bit about your backstory, right? Uh, for this audience who possibly, uh, sees you more as an icon. Uh, and as founders, uh, all of us go through, as you were earlier referring, right, trauma and experiences that shape us, uh, into becoming who we are, right? So if you were to draw back this squiggly line from where you are today, all the way back to the 14-year-old where, uh, you possibly started your first business, right? So it would be interesting to know who that person was and how that person has evolved over the years.

   4. KSKunal Shah2:34

      My backstory is, uh, simple, and many people have heard about this before, so I'll repeat it anyways. Uh, uh, came from Gujarati Jain family in Bombay. Uh, uh, most people in my family, uh, did business. Uh, doing job is not normal, uh, at least in the Gujarati Jain community. Uh-

   5. PMPrateek Mehta2:52

      100%

   6. KSKunal Shah2:53

      ... and, and, uh, my dad was a seven, seventh brother of seven siblings. Uh, seven brothers, he was the seventh. Uh, uh, and, and, uh, by the time I grew up, the family went through, uh... We came from a decently affluent background, but by the time I grew up, all the wealth was gone. We had four, uh, major illnesses in the family. Had to shut all our businesses. Uh, my dad's business was started when I was young, shut down as well. We had to sell everything that we had, move to a 100 square feet chawl. I had to start working when I was 14, 15. Uh, uh, my dad went through severe depression post his company not doing well. I was a part-time delivery boy, part-time data entry operator. Uh, I was supposed to be a science student, had to drop out of that. Did philosophy because it was the only batch available from 7:00 to 9:00 a.m. so I could do a full-time job. Uh-

   7. PMPrateek Mehta3:46

      Wow

3. 3:47 – 6:48

   Philosophy and Sales Shaping Perspectives

   1. KSKunal Shah3:47

      ... got early on to internet. Uh, I got obsessed with it, uh, and I started teaching internet so that I can access to internet. And it was very easy to teach internet. I was like, "You sab karo," and I would just sit on my own computer and do stuff, right?

   2. PMPrateek Mehta3:59

      Mm-hmm.

   3. KSKunal Shah3:59

      So it was fun. Uh, uh, and, and, uh, I used to teach in Aptech, Vin- Vintech, NIIT, all these companies you must have heard about. Philosophy helped a lot, uh, uh, i- in terms of, uh, most people think of philosophy as some Gyan thing, but philosophy comes from the word philo and sophie, which means love for knowledge.

   4. PMPrateek Mehta4:16

      Yeah.

   5. KSKunal Shah4:17

      And, and when you have love for knowledge, what you do develop is ability to have multiple perspectives on one topic, which I think is the biggest missing link in India's education system. Uh, we are all regimented to believe in a certain way of looking at things and, and also we struggle with massive critical thinking. And, and we-- Our opinions are too, uh, influenced through people we worship, uh, any form of worship. Uh, and, and, and therefore like, like what, what we define as the tech bro culture is also that, right? Like in some terms like, "Oh, Elon ne bol diya toh sahi hoga," right?

   6. PMPrateek Mehta4:51

      [laughs]

   7. KSKunal Shah4:51

      Like it's the same thing. Uh, or, or Kunal Shah is giving some Gyan, so he must be right. Like all of this is bullshit. I had to learn sales early on in life because we need to make money and survive.

   8. PMPrateek Mehta5:00

      You know, I just-

   9. KSKunal Shah5:01

      Yeah, go ahead

   10. PMPrateek Mehta5:02

       ... do a, like a little bit of pause, right? Since you-

   11. KSKunal Shah5:04

       Yeah, yeah.

   12. PMPrateek Mehta5:05

       You know, it's strange that, um, you mentioned that you were, uh, teaching people how to become more tech, tech savvy-

   13. KSKunal Shah5:10

       Mm-hmm

   14. PMPrateek Mehta5:10

       ... while you were a philosophy, uh, pursuing philosophy graduation, right? So just help me understand, uh, where did that muscle come from in terms of, uh, backing yourself to be out there teaching people about tech at, uh, that early on?

   15. KSKunal Shah5:23

       Was paisa hi nahi tha. So, uh, uh, I, I would... You, you-- If you told me to do anything, I would have done it-

   16. PMPrateek Mehta5:30

       Yeah

   17. KSKunal Shah5:30

       ... that point of time. So I think that's another thing that many of us have unfortunately had money in our lives because our family did better. And the problem of younger generation is that, uh, uh, many of you do not have parents who have got completely fucked up. Uh, and, and that, uh, is the role of trauma that I talk about often. Unfortunately, it is kind of very co- strong correlation because, uh, uh, uh, it gives you that fuel that is not normal. I can't explain that fuel It is corrosive in nature also because you will not see any happy entrepreneur. They may, uh, um, appear to be sane, but they are usually somewhat off. Uh, and, and, uh, at least correlation to their success, you will see that. Uh-

   18. PMPrateek Mehta6:20

       Yeah

   19. KSKunal Shah6:20

       ... and, and I'm not saying that they're off in manners that you, you think they're like just mad people. They're just a little different, right? Uh, and, and, and their drive doesn't come from anything around the world. They're just driven on their own. They just keep happening to universe, right? They keep happening to universe and, and they can't help it. There is no such thing that they can do to stop happening to universe. They, they have to happen to universe. So I think philosophy just made me curious,

4. 6:48 – 33:56

   Human Motivation and Product Success

   1. KSKunal Shah6:48

      right? And I think the biggest thing I've seen is that people lose their curiosity very early on in life, and they build insecurity very early on where their ability to ask stupid questions dramatically goes down.

   2. PMPrateek Mehta7:00

      Yeah.

   3. KSKunal Shah7:01

      Right? And, and we are a society where we, we all have to look cool and high status and all that stuff. So asking stupid questions, uh, uh, and being shameless is not respected.

   4. PMPrateek Mehta7:11

      100%.

   5. KSKunal Shah7:12

      And, and that stops the, the compounding growth of knowledge because, uh, it comes from just asking stupid questions constantly, right? Uh, how many of you, uh, use ChatGPT? How many of you use it more than 30 times a day? Okay, good. This is a good group. Uh, uh, that's another good place that you can ask stupid questions a lot now and, and, uh, at least you remove. But, but asking stupid questions to humans is actually mu- more valuable because the LLMs have not captured everything that is captured in your minds right now, right? And therefore you have to probe people's brains and get something out of it. Um, kids have a beautiful ability to do that, right? So one experiment-- I don't have kids. I have run experiment on other people's kids. Uh, um-

   6. PMPrateek Mehta7:57

      Always the safe t- safer thing to do.

   7. KSKunal Shah7:59

      Uh, yeah. Uh, so th- there is an experiment I run called as the WhyFi school, W-H-Y-F-I school, where you every day, uh, ask the-- How many of you have kids? Okay, decent crowd. Uh, birth rate is declining, so good. Um, uh, th- there is, uh, a question where you can tell them to ask a question which starts with why, W-H-Y. And you-- It can be anything. Why do humans wear clothes? Very interesting question from a kid's perspective, right? Or, uh, uh, uh, why do we have vegetables at dinner? Or any of those questions. And if you do this consistently for a year, you will see that their compounding rate just goes like this, right? And especially if you allow them to come up with the why questions themselves, and they have to come back with the answers next day, and you allow them to find it the way they want. Uh, and, and what, what builds is the muscle of why. Uh, uh, what you will see is the, the biggest question we lose, uh, as we grow up is the why question. We al- we are always looking for how do I do this? What do I do? Looking for instruction, all of that. But why? Why are we doing this? Why would people use this product? It is so stupid.

   8. PMPrateek Mehta9:14

      Yeah.

   9. KSKunal Shah9:14

      Right? All fundamentals, 99% of products are stupid. So that asking that why question in the negative inverse manner is, is a good thing to do, but we don't do that enough. Um-

   10. PMPrateek Mehta9:26

       You know, this is interesting because in India we have this entire thing of smart and accomplished people are not supposed to have confusion. They are supposed to have clarity. And, uh, people have somehow... I've seen people who used to be curious ha- over a period of time have become less curious. Tell me what is-

   11. KSKunal Shah9:41

       It comes from insecurity. Uh, you will, you will see that they are insecure about their image.

   12. PMPrateek Mehta9:46

       Mm-hmm.

   13. KSKunal Shah9:46

       Uh, and, and the world will not respect them if they ask stupid questions or have curiosity about different things and, uh, uh, they're, they're not probing, right? Uh, many of people who follow me on Instagram, I'm constantly asking questions and looking at people's DMs and asking random, random things and, and, uh, and I'm very curious. I'm, I'm genuinely curious about many, many topics. I, I'll speak to an athlete about what happens over here. I speak to a longevity expert. I'm, I'm, I'm just trying to understand. And, uh, uh, the, the thing about connecting dots, uh, happens when you are good at collecting dots.

   14. PMPrateek Mehta10:23

       Mm-hmm.

   15. KSKunal Shah10:24

       Right? So most people lose the ability to collect dots-

   16. PMPrateek Mehta10:27

       Yeah

   17. KSKunal Shah10:27

       ... because they are like, "Arre!" Because see, in childhood we were shamed, uh, when we demonstrated random curiosity, right? When we were-- when we demonstrated random curiosity, people said, "Arre [laughs] Like, what are we talking about, right? So-

   18. PMPrateek Mehta11:28

       Yeah. No, it's, uh, you know, it's the ultimate flex, by the way.

   19. KSKunal Shah11:34

       No, but I'll tell you what. It, it comes from our culture-

   20. PMPrateek Mehta11:36

       Mm

   21. KSKunal Shah11:36

       ... that any . So then we have to pull them down. It's a sign of a collectivist society. If you, if you look up what is a collectivist society. We, we heard about the crab story, right? The crab story. It, it comes from a collectivist mind, which means we have to keep people at a mean, a regression to mean kind of a culture. And anybody who's flying high, we have to bring them back to the same level so that we work as one socialist or communist unit And, and not try to have a individualistic trait, right? Uh, there are positives to that also, which makes a society a lot more peaceful. Uh, uh, uh, uh, there are downsides also that we are not very innovative.

   22. PMPrateek Mehta12:15

       Mm.

   23. KSKunal Shah12:15

       Uh, uh, how many, uh, innovations of India are used by the world? Very few. Very few. Very, very few. Uh, because we are not very strongly opinionated people, because if we do that, there'll be unlimited mockery. So we kill that part in us, and we are all kindly adjust people. We- we're all kindly adjust people and, and that kills the, uh, [lip smack] the core DNA that is required to be, uh, an innovator or a creator.

   24. PMPrateek Mehta12:48

       Being, uh, from that to henna cones to you know what, uh-

   25. KSKunal Shah12:52

       Yeah, I've done all sorts of random things.

   26. PMPrateek Mehta12:54

       Yeah.

   27. KSKunal Shah12:54

       I've sold pirated CDs, I've sold henna cones, I've done odd jobs, I've run a cyber cafe, I have done... I, I mean, thankfully, I have terrible memory, so I forget many things that I've done. But I think, uh, uh, in, in good faith, I, I think what I learned was the art of skill-- uh, sorry, sales.

   28. PMPrateek Mehta13:11

       Mm-hmm.

   29. KSKunal Shah13:12

       Uh, and I learned the art of understanding what people care about and what do people pay for and, and also understand the human behavior. Uh, because what happens is when the family goes through crisis and all that, you can see how people behave around you-

   30. PMPrateek Mehta13:27

       Yeah
5. 33:56 – 41:46

   Key Traits for Startup Success

   1. KSKunal Shah33:56

      loop. Uh, what it may still do for you is when you make the mistake, you'll remember something that was said by somebody. That is a good, uh, thing.

   2. PMPrateek Mehta34:05

      Yeah.

   3. KSKunal Shah34:05

      And, and that might help you improve your algorithm eventually. Uh, for, for example, uh, you cannot make people ambitious. So if you manage to get a lot of early team members who just do not have the drive, and drive doesn't mean they're extroverted and, uh... There is something about-- There is a drive. I can't explain it, but there is a drive. You know ki this something-- they will do something in life. They will, they will just happen to life. Doesn't matter what. They may hit the wall. That doesn't matter, but they will still hit, right?

   4. PMPrateek Mehta34:41

      Mm-hmm.

   5. KSKunal Shah34:41

      So you will see that they have the ability to of moving and causing displacement. They may cause displacement in the wrong direction, but they are displacement creators, right? The second thing is, uh, you will need a lot of people who are great at ambiguity, because all the people who hate ambiguity become insane liabilities in the early stage. They will say, "Abhi kya? Abhi kya karenge? Abhi kya hoga?" Abhay nahi pata hai, boss.

   6. PMPrateek Mehta35:08

      [laughs]

   7. KSKunal Shah35:11

      Tu dhund ke la. But those people are massive energy drainers. The third category is just energy drainers. You meet them, your energy is gone.

   8. PMPrateek Mehta35:19

      [laughs]

   9. KSKunal Shah35:21

      I'm sure all of you have people like that. Maybe you are those people.

   10. PMPrateek Mehta35:23

       [laughs]

   11. KSKunal Shah35:24

       Wh-wh-when people meet them, their energy is gone. Or you meet them and their energy has gone up. Like, you're like, "My God," like, "something has to happen now." Right? That, that... And, and it can be in your social life, personal life, uh, work life. You want energy creators, right? Uh, and again, it is not introvert and extrovert, just very important nuance. There are a lot of introverts. You meet them, you'll be like-- They'll give you two lines, you'll be like: Oh, my God. Like, just like, boom. Let's go. What else I would look for? Um, uh, your weaknesses. A lot of founders make the mistake of hiring their own clones. They like people like them. They're like, "Oh, shit," like, "Same. What vibes."

   12. PMPrateek Mehta36:03

       [laughs]

   13. KSKunal Shah36:05

       Wavelength match. Uh, I think you have to hire for your weaknesses. Uh, so hiring your opposites is a very powerful, uh, thing. Uh, uh, or o- both on competence as well as style Right? So if you are this flamboyant type, you need to bring people who are gonna run rigor and like, like run it very diligently. Uh, and if you are that type, then you need another type who will be like, oh, they will come up with a creative idea, and so on and so forth. Uh, a lot of times it's very hard to respect our opposites, especially when we are young founders because we have not solved our own insecurities, and we always think of these people as these idiots, right? But there are-- So another thing I've learned, you know this beautiful line I learned from somebody who worked very closely with Dhirubhai Ambani, who's the founder of Reliance. Uh, he said, um, " [Hindi] " Which means if you find some evidence of success, you have to respect it. Don't judge it. There is something in them that made them successful, learn from it or respect it at least. It may not be your cup of tea or it may not be your taste. For example, let's take an example like we may see some cringe influencer and you'll be like, "Yeah, what the..." No, but they are managed to get a million followers. Just respect it. Understand their art form. You may not have-- Uh, following people doesn't mean that you, you follow them. You can learn from them. You can learn from people you find absolute cringe and you will appreciate that why are people getting-- why are people liking this? And appreciate that. Uh, what else I would look for? Um, slopes. I have seen that, uh, people maintain the slope in life. They-- Let's say they started here and they have reached here, they're most likely going to maintain their slope. And the only thing that I have seen that makes people change their slope this way or that way is trauma. So you will see that their slope is like this and then boosh or pshh. And I'm not saying trauma guarantees this slope. Cu- Ma-massive times it goes this way only, right? So, so, but it accelerates or change the, changes the degree of slope, right? So, so I think looking for people who have strong slopes is very important. Other thing is, uh, uh, learning ability. Can they become overnight expert on a topic quickly? Another thing is, uh, if you're hiring leaders, one of the strongest traits I have seen is, uh, can they teach? You will never see a great leader who's terrible at teaching. Uh, you'll rarely s- in, in fact, you will not see it. Uh, and that, that's how they create their tribe. Their ability to teach and coach and look after people. Uh, integrity, right? Uh, uh, and, and, and lot of them integrity people assume as people who follow rules. That's not integrity. Uh, there are some ethics. For example, you don't steal, you don't cheat, all of that stuff, but you break rules. That's another strong trait I have seen that, uh, you need a lot of high ratio of those people in the company to create a big impact. Uh, uh, th- there is this beautiful two by two, I have mentioned this multiple times, but I'll still repeat it, uh, by Devdutt Pattanaik, who's a famous author. Uh, so let's say imagine a two by two. On one side we have high on values, low on values, and on the other axis we have high on obedience and low on obedience, right? So you'll see that somebody who's high on obedience and high on values is Lord Ram. So, like very, very respectable, very high dignity, very thing. And then the opposite of that is Ravan, right? So low on values, low on obedience, both of these things. Then there is Duryodhana, which is, uh, uh, uh, very strong on, uh, uh, va- uh, rules, obedience. Like, " [Hindi] " you cannot fight 6:00 p.m. He wanted the war to end, right? But very low on values, right? Like, uh, uh... And there is Krishna, which is very high on values and very low on obedience. Uh, you will rarely see successful founders who are pure Ram archetypes. You will see them as strong Krishna archetypes. Uh, but most Rams thinks Krishnas are Ravans.

   14. PMPrateek Mehta40:34

       [laughing]

   15. KSKunal Shah40:38

       Because for them, anybody who doesn't follow processes, obey, all of them become a huge sign for that. Uh, so what you will see is that, uh... A- and by the way, all Krishnas will have a history of being somewhat Ravan in their life. You will see something they would have done some trouble in life, like, uh, uh, and then eventually learned the value of values and became more long-term in nature, right? Uh, and, and, and, and the worst is Duryodhanas, like the, the worst category, right? But Rams are very useful for running the company also, right? Like, because a, a, a lot of successful tech CEOs are actually Ram archetypes, where the founder used to be Krishna, and then now they become the Rams, and they follow the Dharma of the founder and just like, boom, boom, boom, execute, right? So these are good archetypes to have. But every startup, when they become large companies, they start losing the ratio of Krishnas because it becomes too big for them, and they don't like all these rules that they only made, right? So they leave.

   16. PMPrateek Mehta41:37

       [laughing]

   17. KSKunal Shah41:38

       And they start up.

   18. PMPrateek Mehta41:41

       Absolutely. And before they start up, they come to South Park Commons to explore. So [chuckles] -

   19. KSKunal Shah41:45

       Let's

6. 41:46 – 47:26

   Design and Aesthetics Matter

   1. KSKunal Shah41:46

      hope that.

   2. PMPrateek Mehta41:47

      So you know what? Um, I do remember some- sometime way back in 2018 when we met at the Third Wave Coffee in, in Indiranagar, I think, and, um, getting onboarded on CRED out there. You know, one of the things that immediately, um, struck with me was the design experience, right? And that design language in-- has evolved over the years, right? And it's, of course, strikingly different from a lot of the stuff which is out there. Talk to us about how have you developed, A, that taste, and more importantly, how have you assembled a people, set of people around you who ha- who continue to propagate that taste?

   3. KSKunal Shah42:25

      Yeah, it, it starts with you, right? And, and it's not designed like we've made choices in marketing-

   4. PMPrateek Mehta42:30

      Yeah, 100%.

   5. KSKunal Shah42:30

      We made choices in business choices, so on and so forth. So taste is-

   6. PMPrateek Mehta42:33

      Can I have a question on marketing separately, especially-

   7. KSKunal Shah42:35

      Yeah, yeah. Sure, sure, sure. Um, so, uh, taste is, um, we may not know how to create something beautiful, but we can all agree this is beautiful.

   8. PMPrateek Mehta42:46

      Yeah.

   9. KSKunal Shah42:47

      Right? Uh, and, and that's where, um, the, the process of, uh, creating beauty or creating something that appeals to people is important, right?

   10. PMPrateek Mehta42:58

       Yeah.

   11. KSKunal Shah42:59

       Um, uh, and especially in a country where we do not care about these things and we think, "Chalta toh hai, isme kya hai?" Like, why do we have to, uh... But what you'll appreciate is that trust has a strong correlation to beauty, right? Attractive people generate a lot more trust.

   12. PMPrateek Mehta43:14

       100%.

   13. KSKunal Shah43:15

       Uh, it's an unfair advantage that they have, right? Uh, and, and, uh, uh, like when we see an area neighborhood attractive, your rent will go up, the price will go up, and so on and so forth. So there's a value to attractiveness and, and design and, and, and more importantly, a design has to have an opinion, right? Uh, uh, uh, which may not suit everyone.

   14. PMPrateek Mehta43:35

       Mm-hmm.

   15. KSKunal Shah43:36

       Right? It has to polarize enough that causes people to say, "I..." Because you can always make something bland and say it works. For example, most people with engineering background want things to be simple. They want efficiency as the key metric. So anything that is non-efficient will not appeal to them because they're like, "Arre itna step ye wo," like, "Give me something straight," like this-

   16. PMPrateek Mehta43:57

       Mm

   17. KSKunal Shah43:57

       ... like whatever, right? Um, they're very utilitarian in their mindset, but that's not how humanity operates, right?

   18. PMPrateek Mehta44:04

       Yeah.

   19. KSKunal Shah44:05

       Uh, uh, uh, we, we want to go to this beautiful Airbnb and we, we want to go through the experience. For example, you'll notice that all, all, uh, cuisines that are really appreciated are not very efficient.

   20. PMPrateek Mehta44:19

       Sure.

   21. KSKunal Shah44:19

       Right? Uh, in fact, all the destinations that we like going to holiday, they will-- you'll not find efficiency over there.

   22. PMPrateek Mehta44:25

       Yeah. All the amazing things don't scale.

   23. KSKunal Shah44:27

       Yeah. So soulfulness comes from lack of efficiency.

   24. PMPrateek Mehta44:30

       Yeah.

   25. KSKunal Shah44:32

       A very hard thing from a pure engineering minds to kind of think about because you say, "Arre but chalta toh hai," like, but then everybody, everything chalta hai, right? Uh, and, and, and like for example, let's say I'm seeing so many different shoes and it ranges from, let's say ₹1,000 to ₹50,000, like the utility value the same. Like it protects you from random things, th-this and keeps you safe, all that stuff. But then why do we pay so much difference? Comes from some things that we create in the feeling of other people's minds and, and, and funny enough, people will justify it. Then they, "Arre Nike ka wo it is like special." Like some-something we'll make up in our head.

   26. PMPrateek Mehta45:08

       Yeah.

   27. KSKunal Shah45:09

       But it's a stupid shoe, right? And therefore, the gross margin can vary from like 5% to 90%, right? Uh, so why, why not create something like that, right? Uh, so I think design was a choice around creating that feeling and, and creating that approach and, and because we are solving for a small cohort of customers, we were looking for the-- I think, uh, uh, everybody wants to go to a five-star hotel eventually.

   28. PMPrateek Mehta45:32

       Mm.

   29. KSKunal Shah45:32

       Right? And, and it's very hard to go back to a lower star hotels once you have experienced five-star, right? It's called ratchet effect in psychology, where, uh, once you experience something high quality, it's very hard to reverse. Uh, and, and, and therefore, the idea is to kind of push people in that direction. And therefore, obsessing about small, small things is what cares about. For example, if you go to a five-star, they're obsessed about small, small things. They'll fold this and do this and write this. You never say like, "Ye kya hai bakwas ye sab likha hai?" Like what is the point of welcome Kunal and all this like... It's pointless. But it's not pointless. There's a reason it works, and there's a reason you, you pay a lot more. In the same neighborhood, there'll be a hotel for ₹2,000 and ₹25,000. But we pay for these things and, and why not build for these things?

   30. PMPrateek Mehta46:21

       And, uh, so how do you look for people who, uh, will possibly channelize the same feelings and, uh, have almost a similar kind of eye for-
7. 47:26 – 55:48

   Innovative Marketing

   1. PMPrateek Mehta47:26

      You know, uh, bunch of iconic marketing campaigns, right? Even during the FreeCharge days and, uh, especially the CRED one with I think everybody, yeah, I think possibly channelizing-- Rahul Dravid channelizing you, right? "Indira Nagar ka gunda hoon main." So the question is that, um... And I do, uh, remember, uh, possibly reading somewhere or somebody telling me that you did not use anyone, any creative agency to do that, right? Uh, and the team kind of led it, uh, internally-

   2. KSKunal Shah47:53

      Yeah. We did not even have a large-- we didn't have anybody with a marketing background, and we got some interesting people, creatives, Tanmay and others, to build ads, and they had not built ads before.

   3. PMPrateek Mehta48:02

      Yeah.

   4. KSKunal Shah48:03

      We told them, "Tu ad banayega," and they made ads.

   5. PMPrateek Mehta48:06

      So talk to us about the entire, uh, how do you approach marketing right and, uh, uh, and building the brand because, uh, I st- I do also remember the chat-

   6. KSKunal Shah48:16

      So, uh, I had gone to Singapore Zoo, and there was a origa- orangutan, uh, uh, enclosure, and there's a beautiful sign over there which says that, um- Orangutans are very high IQ animals, and to keep them entertained, we give them-- constantly give them puzzles or things to do so that they keep engaged. And it was very int-very powerful for me, and I realized that, uh, all ads are unfortunately spoon-feeding.

   7. PMPrateek Mehta48:43

      Mm-hmm.

   8. KSKunal Shah48:44

      So our ads were purposely made to not be spoon-fed, and it appeals to intellectuals that, "Oh my God, what is this all about? And I'll try to crack this." And, and our ads were discussed the most, uh, and, and, and people would hate on it, people would talk about it. The CMOs hated it-

   9. PMPrateek Mehta48:59

      Mm

   10. KSKunal Shah48:59

       ... uh, 'cause it, it broke the playbook of how ads are made. But what was interesting is that every now and then in a, in that group, somebody will explain CRED kya karta hai, right? Because they, they were already a user on CRED and they found a pride in that, "Oh, what is this?" And see, the opposite of love is not hate.

   11. PMPrateek Mehta49:16

       Yeah.

   12. KSKunal Shah49:16

       The opposite of love is indifference, right? So I think marketing should be while you can explain things, but ultimately the-- it has to evoke an emotion and it has to evoke some drive. Kya hai ye? Like, kya chal raha hai? And I think we managed to do that decently well, uh, uh, over multiple campaigns. Uh, uh, and, and, uh, we, we realized that, uh, when everything is an ad around us... By the way, uh, all of us have become ads thanks to social media. Like, we are all trying to signal all different things and, uh, uh, uh, we are also, um, um, competing with content and everything, and everything is screaming, so you have to be different. And, and, uh, great ads become a hit before they come on television. So we used to optimize for that. If we launch something, we'll-- we get to a million views even before it goes on forced to you.

   13. PMPrateek Mehta50:18

       Mm.

   14. KSKunal Shah50:18

       Before it's forced to you and we have to watch it. The-- Is there enjoyment factor in watching that? And, and, and you have to appeal to different, uh, audience. For example, we realized that we are focused on, let's say, metro affluent audience. So there are some jokes, there are some tones. For example, we chose approach of not taking any big celebrities ever, right? Uh, because, A, they're expensive.

   15. PMPrateek Mehta50:42

       Mm-hmm.

   16. KSKunal Shah50:42

       Uh, and, and we took a lot of celebrities who had been big in the past in any manner and made them different.

   17. PMPrateek Mehta50:51

       Yeah.

   18. KSKunal Shah50:51

       Right? So it kind of connects the dots and, and what we did is our, our goal was that we realized that in every house, um, there's a chief technology officer, which happens to be between the age of eight to 20, right? That's the person who's driving the technological choices of the family. So your ads have to appeal to them so that they can explain to the 30 to 40 to 50-year-olds to try things, right? And they have to say: "Oh my God, CRED is my brand." They may have nothing to do with the credit card or whatever, but they have to be your biggest fans because a technology choice of a family will be driven by the young person. So we always optimize for the eight to 25-year-old loving our ads, because they will drive the home's choices on ads.

   19. PMPrateek Mehta51:37

       Nice.

   20. KSKunal Shah51:38

       Or, or products rather.

   21. PMPrateek Mehta51:39

       You know, we'll do a quick rapid fire and then-

   22. KSKunal Shah51:41

       Sure

   23. PMPrateek Mehta51:41

       ... turn it over to the audience. Um, so tell us, uh, who do you admire or who has possibly influenced you a lot and why?

   24. KSKunal Shah51:50

       Uh, a, a, a lot of people. Uh, in fact, I would strongly recommend all of you to not have favorites in your life. Favorites is the fastest way to become dumb in life. Uh, love a lot of things and be interested in many, many things.

   25. PMPrateek Mehta52:06

       Nice. Um, you know, what are you-- what is c- uh, what is something that you're possibly currently reading, uh, or watching, which is-

   26. KSKunal Shah52:14

       Uh, I'm reading this book on brief history of intelligence. It's, it's quite interesting. Uh-

   27. PMPrateek Mehta52:19

       Mm-hmm

   28. KSKunal Shah52:19

       ... it's, it's ta-taking a view from a cellular perspective to AI, so it's like a biology to AI kind of a direction. Find it interesting.

   29. PMPrateek Mehta52:27

       Nice. And if there was one book that you would recommend to this group, uh, what would that be?

   30. KSKunal Shah52:31

       Uh, don't take book recommendations from people. Discover your own books. Uh, again, the same problem that, uh, uh, all of you will become a repeat of the same thing, and everybody will say the same things. Become different. So find your own paths. Be curious about the things that you are interested in. Uh, uh, start with YouTube. Start with some short videos, this, that, and then get interested in something and use ChatGPT. Now books are also not needed on many topics. So just, I would say that be widely curious and spend at least an hour a day to be randomly curious about things.
8. 55:48 – 1:10:07

   Wealth, Health, and Business Success

   1. SPSpeaker55:48

      Uh, I'm building in wealth, and you speak a lot about wealth. Uh, from a perspective of you profoundly shifted the narrative on financial discipline through positive reinforcement, gamification. The thesis is wealth and health are not optimized because of decision fatigue and execution fatigue. Now, with digital finance, uh, you know, things are frictionless. There are rewards. But what-- Because you understand customers very deeply, what do you think so will make things more optimal? We believe that-

   2. KSKunal Shah56:18

      Fi- first of all, I don't believe in those two assumptions you made that wealth has not become big because of those two things. Uh, most human beings are greedy, uh, so they will want wealth. Uh, it's just that they don't understand wealth as a concept altogether. Uh, for example, we needed people to say mutual fund sahi hai toh pura country mutual fund mein chala gaya, right? Um, and that's worked out fine for people and, and we don't know how it'll turn out in the long run or short run. But the, the, the point is that, uh, uh, we, we are, we are not critical thinking audience, right? We are listening to somebody who we think is powerful and respectful, and we just go in that direction, right? Uh, for example, we're listening to cricketers, uh, when we're saying mutual fund sahi hai. Like, how do they know? Who told them, right? Or who paid them? Uh, uh, the, the point is that, uh, we, we are a country that is gonna still follow, uh, uh, and most people take investment decisions by asking people around them who they think they are smart. So I-- Friction of investing going away will not change investing behavior, right? Gyms are accessible. Kaun healthy ban gaya? Aisa nahi hota, right? So, uh, uh, oh, you're saying, "Oh, people aren't healthy because gyms are ch- expensive." No, that's not the point. You can walk on the street if you want. The point is that the core motivation of what people do is what drives people, right? For example, a lot of people focus on wealth after they have kids, right? But we are, we are living in a world where birth rate is tanking materially because YOLO, like JOLO, Simran types, right? So we are like, uh, going to experiences, traveling, like all of that stuff. And like building assets is not a concept anymore because we've become very short term. So trying to make wealth in a short term society is fundamentally off, and therefore we are looking for shortcuts in wealth also. For example, bulk of the wealth revenue in India comes from speculative transactions, right? F&O is a huge thing, uh, that drives bulk of the revenue. Usse kiska paisa nahi bana hai. But, uh, uh, and, and, uh, there's a beautiful line by Warren Buffett which says that wealth is a process of transferring wealth from the impatient to the patient, right? And, and that is what is happening, right? Like, and we, we want those quick hits like, "Can I get this IPO pop? Can I buy this crypto? Can I do this?" And this comes from short term behaviors, right? Like, we are all short term now. Uh, uh, same thing with health, right? We are looking for some hack to get super fit or get abs or whatever. Like it's just all... So, but the thing is that we, we, we all, uh, uh, w- human society goes through these cycles. We'll get fucked and then we'll go, "Oh, discipline, discipline," right? Like, so we have to, we have to go through these cycles. We-- Most people in this room have not seen a bear market. Toh tum ko kya samjha rahe ho usko? Woh toh bol raha hai ki like, "Let's go." So it's very hard. So my saying that m- just making things ac-accessible does not change the core motivation. Core motivations happen for a different reason. For example, Japan changed materially after two atom bombs. You should study that. Like, they got completely fucked up. They got very ambitious. They, they, they had other traumas, all of that stuff. But it had a in-- significant impact on birth rate. So we'll not have Japanese people in few decades from now, which is crazy if you think about it, from one event.

   3. SPSpeaker59:39

      What are the d- what do you think could be the playbook for building Delta four experiences in the next Indian consumer tech business playbook?

   4. KSKunal Shah59:49

      Just build something that people care about and make it significantly better, cheaper, and faster. That will create Delta four. And sometime the platform shift, for example, AI or smartphones or GPS or all these create this opportunity to create Delta four very easily. So just ride on these opportunities, and infrastructure is one way of thinking about it, but there are some technologies, some changes of human behavior. All of these create interesting Delta four opportunities on its own. So, but I'm saying that, uh, uh, uh, Delta four is about constantly trying to see can you create a Delta four product on what is currently a core human behavior that is already existing or a core product or service that already exists, right? Because technically, f- if you think about human species, uh, uh, every single thing is inefficient till we discover the more efficient things. Right? So everything will become more and more efficient. For example, I saw, uh, uh, China has built drones now to send people. So you can sit on the drone, it delivers you. So you will say [speaking foreign language] right? And we are still, like, trying to deal with the traffic or whatever, like, people are just flying now. So-- And you should look it up, by the way. They're crazy stories. And I've, I've seen like at least 20 startups got funded to deliver humans on drones, right? So what I'm saying is that, is that delta four? Obviously, right? But then you will say: Oh, but it's too expensive, then it may not be delta four because then Rapido is cheaper to go from one point to another point. And you will say: Okay, I-I'll be okay to-- Like flight tickets versus train versus bus, like the same thing, right? We, we all-- Delta four changes materially, but as flights became cheaper, it did impact trains, it did impact buses, it did impact road travel and so on and so forth. So it, it's an evolving thing. And, and the reason we as a species do well, because we are constantly seeking more delta four products perpetually.

   5. SPSpeaker1:01:34

      So you invest in a lot of companies and you talk about, uh, the river and the dam. So what do you give more priority to, the river or the dam or the person creating the dam? And then just a second part to this question is, um, what do you think are the biggest signs of finding the river? Like if you had to to- uh, rank top three.

   6. KSKunal Shah1:01:53

      First of all, uh, I look for people who have a strong slope and natural ability to learn, so they will figure out river, dam combination, all of that stuff. Uh, and, and they usually have stronger insights. And I usually look for people who understand something about their business more than I understand about their business. So that's the bar I look for. If I know something more about than, than their business, then they are not usually a good sign for me. And I'm widely curious about many businesses, so I do know about many businesses. Uh, second, i-in terms of looking for rivers, I think you do-- Just ask fundamental question, do people, will people pay a lot for this? Like, do people care about this? And do, like-- And, and you do ask that end customer. Sometimes the end customer is you, sometimes it's somebody else, sometimes it's a farmer, sometimes it's a business, sometimes it's enterprise. Like something. And you should ask this question: Will they pay lakhs of rupees for this? Will they pay 10,000 rupees? Will they pay one rupee? Will they pay five rupee? Will they want it free only? Will they wa- give me time for it? A lot of stuff. For example, imagine I announce 100 rupees for short videos. Nobody will pay for it because people fundamentally believe it's a wrong use of their time, right? So you have to only build an addictive product, which you have to give it for free and then cross-sell ads on it, right? Because what people value will change, but will they give their time and money to it in the cleanest possible way?

   7. SPSpeaker1:03:13

      Kunal, you talked about, uh, health first. Uh, you know, shameless plug, I'm, uh, building in personal finance space.

   8. KSKunal Shah1:03:21

      It's the most dangerous space to build in, by the way.

   9. SPSpeaker1:03:23

      Yeah, I know.

   10. KSKunal Shah1:03:23

       Uh, most people who do personal finance apps, uh, they love doing personal finance themselves. So they think everybody likes doing that. It's the stupidest business to build, in my view.

   11. SPSpeaker1:03:32

       Yeah.

   12. KSKunal Shah1:03:32

       I'll tell you why I'm saying that. I'm, I'm interrupting you because I might save your years of your life.

   13. SPSpeaker1:03:36

       Sure.

   14. KSKunal Shah1:03:36

       Uh, uh [audience laughing] Because, uh, uh, uh, most people who do health business and, uh, personal finance are usually like these things in themselves. So they think everybody should be doing that. But there's a re-- People find it very highly anxiety to look at their own money and track their stuff and look at these expenses and look at these charts and all that stuff. Uh, uh, so what happens is, uh, uh, these businesses naturally have a retention problem because people come for excitement. Oh, let's do the-- Means how many of you stopped checking weighing scale in your home after you got it? Please raise your hand. How many of you have a weighing scale at home, first of all? How many of you use it every day? Okay, good.

   15. SPSpeaker1:04:17

       This is a good cohort.

   16. KSKunal Shah1:04:18

       Uh, so you'll see that, like, the retention is very hard on weighing scale, right? Uh, so what I'm saying is if you're building a high frequency product, uh, this is one, one [speaking foreign language] weighing scale. They don't care about are you coming or not coming about it, right? So for example, a lot of education courses go through the same thing, like [speaking foreign language] Like 10% is there in the sixth session audience. So what I'm saying is that be careful about that choice. Anyways, question.

   17. SPSpeaker1:04:42

       No, absolutely. And I think, uh, trust your gut, but would love to follow up why. Uh, but on the, on the hypothesis you were making around, uh, you know, that Izzat as a correlation to per capita, I just checked on GPT, Delhi, Haryana being on four, five. So clearly there is a correlation, but not necessarily a causality. And-

   18. KSKunal Shah1:05:01

       Uh, ve-very important nuance to that, but we'll come to that part.

   19. SPSpeaker1:05:03

       So the point I was making, not challenging that thesis, but just saying that as a founder, when you have some hypothesis, there is a correlation which is leading to an outcome, but you are completely ignoring the causality to it. Like the causality to this could be network effects, like West Bengal say [speaking foreign language] now there is villages who is using-- becoming health and suddenly that town has become very, uh-

   20. KSKunal Shah1:05:26

       Correct

   21. SPSpeaker1:05:26

       ... affluent, right? So there is that, that correlation as well. So as a founder, when do you say that now you have gone to the causality [speaking foreign language] to save those-

   22. KSKunal Shah1:05:35

       No, it's a good point. It's a good point. Uh, first of all, uh, it's good to counter question and all of that, and, and we can discuss Delhi, Haryana specifically, and you should ask if is it a migrant population, local population who did well? What caused that particular thing? What is the history around that? Where is the per capita average? [speaking foreign language] All of the questions you to ask genuinely, right? For example, you know what is the largest per capita state in India?

   23. SPSpeaker1:05:59

       Sikkim.

   24. KSKunal Shah1:05:59

       Sikkim. And then second is Goa. And you will not feel that over there, right? [speaking foreign language] But that is the truth also. So we can, we can go into this depth of these things and you should just say ChatGPT is a great efficient thing, and then you'll go depth in it, right? Otherwise, you'll like take the surface and not go into deep. Uh, coming to the thing on causality of things, right? Uh, there will never be enough time to get to that. [speaking foreign language] You do apply yourselves and apply some strong instincts toward it. For example, back in the day, uh, I had a individual who worked for me. He used to work in Hindustan Lever. He had this crazy insight that- Uh, and he, he was head of skincare over there. He put fairness in every cream of, uh, Hindustan Lever, not just Fair & Lovely.

   25. PMPrateek Mehta1:06:48

       [laughs]

   26. KSKunal Shah1:07:13

       So one last question.

   27. PMPrateek Mehta1:08:23

       Do you think there is one thing that we should do differently? If yes, how do you think we should go about doing it?

   28. KSKunal Shah1:08:29

       Uh, I think we should, uh, spend more time building and less time collecting knowledge, uh, because knowledge through iteration will be faster than trying to just read up stuff. I think we are too obsessed. We think it's an academic process, so we want to watch a video, we want to come for this talk. All these are not good use of time. Uh, uh, uh, we should be building and iterating a lot more. Uh, number two, start appreciating what people pay for, uh, and start studying, uh, markets that companies that create a lot of profit, right? Because there's truth in profits, right? There is truth in scale of revenue. There is truth in size of companies, right? And only when we-- for example, a lot of people make jokes of SBI, right? SBI is the most profitable company in the stock markets, right? It generates thousands of thousands of crores of profit, right? But if you go at a surface level and make jokes of SBI, NRA, lunchtime, this, that, then you will never become evolved person, right? You have to go and ask that why is SBI so profitable? What is making them so special? Why, why do 500 million Indians rely on them? So I think the, the lens to apply is that to respect, uh, where there is success.

   29. PMPrateek Mehta1:09:42

       Awesome. Thanks a lot, Kunal. Thanks for doing this, and thanks for being so generous with your time. I think, uh, [clapping] you know, I was about to say that insight per second ratio is very, very high, but, you know, the applause says it all. So thanks again for doing this.

   30. KSKunal Shah1:10:00

       Awesome. Thank you, folks. See you. [clapping]

Episode duration: 1:10:13